dia—- I WAS around then   and notice that this ain’t that….despite all the bullshit
trying to make it sound the same…... Cops back then REALLY did beat us and
REALLY were ordered to do so…..

NYPD today is far fucking different.

“Do you know if he recovered okay?”

Well, you know you should have been around in 1968 when the cops went on a rampage, beating demonstrators into hospital beds. Even Kovac of ‘Born on the Fourth of July’ fame was beaten and hauled off to a police station to be beaten some more. They didn’t even believe he was really in a wheelchair until one of them noticed he was wearing a catheter. They then looked ashamed and backed away. Sent to Vietnam, shot and came back in a wheelchair and still an ‘enemy of the state’. You just don’t get it, Hetero, and want to debate every single incident all over again as if the police in America don’t have a record as long as a city block in these matters. Police who beat their own citizens for expressing their opinions are no better than the Nazis who beat and killed unionists and socialists and editors before they ever started on the Jews.

Like I said, not even a modicum of sympathy for the officer who was so obviously assaulted. 

It’s equally obvious that someone here hasn’t seen, with their own eyes, how Ms. McMillan assaulted this policeman.  Or how another policeman tended to the young lady while she was apparently convulsing.  Or how several officers banded together to carry Ms. McMillan toward emergency medical staff.

We all know what a peaceful protest looks like.

Oh, no! The poor cop!  Assaulted by a panicky female protester who was either hyper-ventilating or having a seizure.  Oops!  Not trained in how to handle that! Couple hundred of us standing around wondering what to do, if anything?  After all, she hit him first!  With her elbow?  Accidentally? On purpose? Gee, that’s unusual!  Nobody ever hits a cop by mistake—and in a crowd at that!  And him so unprotected and all!  Must have been one of them anarchists!  Shoulda gassed her!  Can’t have these females getting out of hand!

hetero, - “Did you happen to worry much about the cop”..?

-

Apparently not.  I’ve not seen a single TruthDig article, comment thread, Occupy organizer or spokesperson display any concern of any kind for the officers who had been assaulted during the OWS six month anniversary event.  A review of the McMillan incident clearly shows how the officer may very well have been seriously injured.

“Let’s not let the most important problems get lost in personal confrontation.”

when that person hits a cop in the face cops come up a little short on deep
concern.

no harm came to the arrested woman as a result of her freak-out. (cops tend to
see quite a bit of EDPs in the course of their work) .

hey, did you happen to worry much about the cop that the woman assaulted and
injured?

Do you know if he recovered okay?

Questions should be asked when cops armed with both protective and aggressive equipment, and professionally trained to “manage” crowds in public places, don’t have a medic within shouting distance,
and dare not indicate some degree of human warmth and understanding, particularly when a crowd is engaged in using political rights guaranteed to it by the Constitution of the United States of America while one of its members is retching helplessly on the sidewalk for 15 minutes.

BTW:  Only 17 minutes for emergency medical response is phenomenal!  Outstanding!

“Is that why so many of them—if you see their faces—look trapped and very frightened, like they don’t want to do what they are doing?”

-

YES! 

That is precisely what we’ll see ever time police, fireman, and EMT’s face, what looks to them like, hundreds of people, from many directions, throwing rocks, punches, bottles, breaking things, defacing things, obstructing them, and generally making life miserable for every one of those hard working, busting their ass, every-day public service employees who daily put their lives on the line. - Ninety-nine percent of whom are there to harm no one.

Good grief.  Everyone here knows what a peaceful protest looks like.  Good grief.  Take some responsibility.

While more or less pretentious arguments go on about Occupy and the police, we have video evidence (about 15 plus minutes) of patent ineffectual police activity, some of it pretty inept.  No provision for medical emergencies?  Takes 17 minutes to get help for a person in seizure of some sort and no immediate call for medical help even though there probably was at least someone in the crowd who had had first aid training? No signs on any police faces of concern?  Just a kind of bored, forced and unsympathetic “tolerance” if disregard can be called tolerance.  Like showing humane concern for the girl would indicate weakness? 
  What is it that blocks police from all show of person-to-person concern and freezes them into “the opposition” without a word being spoken? In fact, they act like they aren’t permitted to speak as one human to others. Is it the uniforms?  The military equipment? The training based on assumptions of opposition?  The history of their worst behavior averaged out over years? 
  They seem 1000 years away from the average police officer of earlier days. As their problems become more inevitable, their ability to be adaptive enough to cope seems to decrease. Seems counterproductive to try to turn them into robots or pieces of machinery which is impossible.  Is that why so many of them—if you see their faces—look trapped and very frightened, like they don’t want to do what they are doing?

hetero,

Why this wordy exercise?  I’m sincerely asking.  I honestly believe you’re being dishonest.

Since at least last October you’ve done everything possible to avoid acknowledging the violence and property damage that has occurred at and around each and every large ‘Occupation’ across the country.  Over 30 police officers injured last year directly related to Zuccotti Park and surrounding demonstrations.  Yet you maintain OWS has been a peaceful party.  Really?

Look, I know most protesters are not violent.  The majority don’t break things.  But there can no longer be any doubt, in any reasonable and objective understanding of the situation, there is a dynamic in these particular types of protests that have caused thousands of arrests and hundreds of injuries all while clashing with police, fire departments and EMTs all over the country.  These protests, as you know, threaten to “take control” of private property.  Two buildings that I am aware of in Manhattan last fall were broken into by ‘organized’ protesters. - Peaceful demonstrations, you say.  I say you’re going out of your way to look away.

Zucotti

You tell me.  Is it important what you or I may think about a tarp being erected in the park?  Or is it more important to understand how Occupy and the New York Supreme Court thinks and feel about a “roofed structure” in the park?  There is a reason that “structure” was erected and a reason why the NY police have no choice but to physically remove all such structures. 

Lastly, and I have hard time believing you are not already aware, there are several reports of assaults against law enforcement, property damage, threats to park security, tent(s), sleeping bags and open glass alcohol containers in and around Zuccotti Park preceding the closing of the park.

I’m sorry but I must be frank.  I believe you’re intentionally dishonest on this subject.

thanks, IMax….. “out of hand” is a very specific and informative answer…..

I did read it and I do indeed not accept it…..“out of hand” is either a felony nor
misdemeanor….it’s a vapor not even rising to the usual “disorderly conduct”

If you ever find something that is of substance in helping me to understand while
the closing of the park was authorized, I’ll be appreciative.

Ms. McMillan was taken to a local hospital and released.  Reportedly hospital staff could find nothing ailing the young lady.  She was advised to schedule a follow-up with her doctor.

I’m sure all who genuinely cared took the time to a. know her name and b. did a follow-up on her condition.

Let’s not let the most important problem get lost in personal confrontation.

gerard—- she’s fine.

“A witness told AnimalNY that McMillan elbowed an officer in the face while he
attempted to take her into custody—another protester in the video above says that
she was “violently beaten in the park” which led to the seizure. Then around 3:45
in the video, you can see protesters confronting officers about McMillan, leading
to an intense scuffle.”

http://gothamist.com/2012/03/18/videos_ows_protester_suffered_seizu.php

she was brought before a judge and the city wanted her to post about $20,000 in
bail but the judge denied it she’s ROR, walking free until trial.

So what ever happened with the girl and the seizure?
Did she just get lost in the shuffle?  And doesn’t her treatment (or lack of) matter at all?  Let’s not let the most important problem get lost in a personal confrontation.

hetero,

Clearly I answered your question the first time you asked.  You simply refuse to except the answer.  It’s intentional, yes?

You write: “it (a violent stoned protester) can’t be said to be violence that was intended as part of the protest.”

Correct.  Precisely the reason I would never suggest such a thing.  You may choose your words carefully but you’re not listening very well.

IMax—- you’re confused…. I never said anything about tossing bricks at police
wasn’t a serious crime….you must be thinking of someone else.

and I never said that protesters turning violent while stoned wasn’t violence….I
said that it can’t be said to be violence that was intended as part of the protest.

I try to write carefully about these things, IM….

and my question to you has been….why was the park closed and the people
ordered to disperse. what was happening that made that order valid and necessary
when the park is usually open 24 hours?

hetero,

I promise to answer any honest question you pose.

A few months back you argued that throwing bricks at police officers from the top of a building was not an incident of violence because you knew of no “serious” injuries.  A few days ago you argued that no OWS protester who turned violent while under the influence should be tallied as an incident of violence.

There is simply no need for such dishonesty on your part.

IM——what happened BEFORE the order to clear the park? Not what ensued , but
what made the order necessary and valid?

please, I’ll be happy to hear that it was justified…....where’s the justification?

Let us be clear on what took place during the “peaceful” six month celebration of Occupy. 

-Over 70 people detained for being unruly.
-Roughly 40 arrested
-Numerous incidents of vandalism
-Nine police officers assaulted
-Three police officers injured

We all know a peaceful protest when we see it.  Millions protested the Iraq war with a fraction of the incidents of violence and destruction we see from Occupy (in a two month period last fall roughly 35 NY police officers were injured by protesters).

gerard—-that sort of criticism doesn’t apply the the NYPD. They’re quite well
trained and supervised.

They can not fairly be said to have been excessively violent with the OWS
protesters the last fall.

The more repressive the police become when dealing carelessly with nonviolent protest, the more they prove the protesters’ point—that “the system” is careless, repressive, undemocratic and injurious to people it is elected and/or appointed to protect.
  It might be a good idea to give police some immediate training in alternatives to violence so they are not misled by their “hardware” and by not knowing what else to do but over-react and use it.

IMax—- I’ll be quite willing to peruse anything at all from you that shows that
there was some reasonable grounds for the order to vacate the park….. I’m sure
that you’ve noticed that I don’t believe occupation to be a legally valid tactic.

but I still want to know what justifies clearing the park this time around.

hetero,

It’s intentional, yes?  The way you completely ignore the subject of vandalism, the bottles thrown at law enforcement, the scuffles and arrests thru-out the day.  The three police officers injured. 

You look on this event and describe how a peaceful party atmosphere and a harmless simple tarp set off riot gear and clubs. - It’s intentional, yes?

IM——- when you start banning symbolic protest that is, in itself, not violative, 
you’ve crossed over from a decent democracy.

I’m a fan of Ray Kelly and the present-day NYPD, and it was Kelly who earlier said
that the NYPD would not be “looking” for reasons to shut down the Zuccotti Park
occupation.

I just haven’t seen anything that legally authenticates this last order to clear the
park.

It’s open 24/7 for public usage and this last shutdown appears to have been by
fiat rather than though force of law.

hetero,

If we understand the tactic of “Occupying” spaces we understand how a simple roofed structure in Zuccotti Park means everything.  Thus the reason it was erected.  By design the symbol, as you call it, was meant to force the hand of law enforcement to react by enforcing the ban on roofed structures, i.e., closing the park.

The effect of erecting the “structure”, along with the vandalism and several arrests of the unruly amongst a mostly peaceful crowed, local authorities closed the Park and the area to protests.

This will continue and someone will be hurt, or worse.

IMax——they really didn’t get “out of line” and they put up no tents beyond a
single symbolic piece of canvas….....

I’m not an advocate of any right to occupy….but this seems to have been police
abridging a legit party before any violation occurred. 

Troy——- the woman is said to have cracked a cop in the face with an elbow
before she was touched….. you assault a cop, you’ve earned a beat-down and an
arrest.

hetero,

The way I understand it the Occupy crowed once again got out of hand.  Property damage and erecting tents and/or structures.

-

“Imax never states how the woman struck the officer and with what, so I suppose we can take that assertion for what it is worth; NOTHING!” - Troy Davis

Troy,

If you look past the dishonest Headline above, if you following this particular event in more depth, you’ll learn that Ms. McMillan refused to disperse with the majority of peaceful protesters.  Ms. McMillan then violently struck the arresting officer while calmly walking the young lady to a waiting city bus being used by law enforcement.  Immediately following that strike several witnessing officers physically restrained Ms. McMillan to the ground. Apparently a short time after the situation had calmed, and officers waited to move Ms. McMillan into a queue, she appeared to convulse. - 17 minutes later, after being slowed by the crowed, an ambulance arrived and took the young lady to a hospital where she was treated and released.

I won’t claim to know anything about Ms. McMillan’s medical history.  I would only urge people here to ask any police officer they happen to know what the term “Felony Faint” means.  It’s very common.  Particularly during high-profile events such as we saw last weekend.

I remain suspicious.

IMax states, “The Guardian reports: “Witnesses to Saturday’s police crackdown at Zuccotti Park said McMillan suffered heavy-handed treatment as she was taken into custody.”

Now, this is a far cry from the unsubstantiated assertion by Imax that the woman suffering the seizure physically attacked an officer.

Imax never states how the woman struck the officer and with what, so I suppose we can take that assertion for what it is worth; NOTHING!

IMax———why was the order to disperse lawful on that occasion?  I came up
short in finding out the reason that people were ordered out of the park.

Blueokie,

I think you’ll be more successful in your goals if you omit the hyperbole.

Be clear.  Are you suggesting Ms. McMillan is justified in striking an officer in the face and head because you feel you’re being denied your constitutional rights?

I have a followup question if you’re able to carry yourself like an open-minded adult.

haha thank you blueokie, leave it to IMax to take the most absurd position possible on all issues and continually rave about it for days on end..

That’s right moron, ignoring the Gestapo’s denial of your Constitutional Rights and attacking their swinging truncheons with your head and body against Storm Troopers in full body armor constitutes violence.  Idiot.

I would have more sympathy for Ms. McMillan if she hadn’t refused the lawful order to disperse and then strike a police officer in the face and head.  Her apparent subsequent seizures look awfully suspicious - serving to add to the drama.

The Guardian reports: “Witnesses to Saturday’s police crackdown at Zuccotti Park said McMillan suffered heavy-handed treatment as she was taken into custody.” - Yes.  That’s precisely what happens after you strike a police officer in the head.  The police become “heavy-handed”.

-

Physically Occupying public and private spaces, refusing to leave after a protest, allows law enforcement no choice but to respond with physical force.  I refuse to believe that Occupy organizers do not understand how these events will pay out.  People will be injured or worse.