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Ear to the Ground

Occupiers Shift to the Sidewalks

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Posted on Apr 12, 2012
pameladrew212 (CC-BY)

Protesters want “sleep-outs” to occur nightly around the New York Stock Exchange, shown here with its columns illuminated in November 2011.

Expelled from their encampment at Zuccotti Park last November, protesters with Occupy Wall Street have taken to sleeping on the sidewalks of the financial center in lower Manhattan. —ARK

The New York Times:

Norman Siegel, a prominent civil-rights lawyer, said a decision by a federal court in Manhattan arising from a lawsuit in 2000 allowed the protesters to sleep on sidewalks so long as they did not block doorways and took up no more than half the sidewalk.

The protesters first cited that ruling last week while sleeping outside bank branches near Union Square, but said this week that they wanted so-called sleep-outs to occur nightly around the New York Stock Exchange.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, April 19, 2012 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment

Jeff,

What gave you the idea that I don’t appreciating the seriousness of the political and economic realities of the U.S.?  My issues and concerns have nothing to do with protester’s grievances.  My concerns have always been about these ‘Occupations’ and the resulting violence.

I assure you that you have no need to worry.  I appreciate the gravity of the situation.

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By Jeff N., April 19, 2012 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

The anarchist ideology is certainly present in OWS, obviously pretty hard to determine a percentage due to the difficulty of defining what exactly each person’s idea of anarchism is.

I think there is an interesting divergence within the movement between those who are interested in trying to create change through our current system, and those (with more of an anarchist bent) who feel that such change is impossible given the current state of affairs.  To these people it seems that revolution is the only way forward.  I’m still a bit on the fence myself regarding these two paths, as everyday our political system seems more and more hopeless, yet it’s hard to imagine exactly how revolution would work in this environment.

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

IMax—- “physically confrontational” is not the same as inherently violent….. MLK
and Gandhi were physically confrontational.

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By IMax, April 19, 2012 at 6:46 am Link to this comment

Hetero, Jeff, Maani, et al.

July of last year I first became aware of plans to ‘Occupy’ Wall Street.  After considering the mood of the American public, after witnessing the massive crowds of the recent Tea Party, after witnessing the earnestness of the statements coming from those calling for ‘Occupation’ I began a study of the individuals at the nexus of the idea concerning protests via occupying physical spaces. - I’ve never been content to simply follow people or events blindly.

Hetero will recall me saying how “Occupation”, by its very design, is intended to be physically confrontational.  Not fully comprehending the tactic, or those behind WSdotOrg, he has vehemently disagreed.  Please consider the following:

  “A majority of the participants are drawn from subcultures that are all about reinventing everyday life. Even if not, actions begin with the creation of new forms of collective (horizontal) decision-making: councils, assemblies, the endless attention to ‘process’ — and uses those forms to plan the street actions and popular festivities (party-like atmosphere). The result is, usually, a dramatic confrontation with armed representatives of the state.

The above was written, not in 2011, when the tactic of physical confrontations began in New York, but in 2007 by David Graeber.  Professor, anarchist, self-proclaimed founder of OWS and one of the first contributors to AdBusters - later to become Occupywallstreetorg in June 2011.

Based on Graeber’s own subsequent account, he played an integral role with the initial orchestration of the movement in New York (he has subsequently acted as one of several ‘Occupy’ spokespersons around the country).  It is notable that Occupy’s core principles and techniques correspond so closely with an article he wrote over a decade ago defining the “new anarchists”.

Mr. Graeber is one of roughly twenty-five people at the pinnacle of ‘Occupy’.  I would urge those interested to study the activities of another OWS founder, Bill McKibben.  The man behind, what Foreign Policy magazine called, “the largest ever globally coordinated rally of any kind over the past decade”.

-

NOW LET ME BE VERY CLEAR.  I make absolutely NO CLAIM that Graeber or McKibben are bad individuals.  I am only sharing what I know to be honest and true.  Occupy has never been leaderless.  To believe otherwise is to seriously misinterpret events surrounding OWS.

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By heterochromatic, April 19, 2012 at 6:44 am Link to this comment

Manni——you’re not making sense by insisting that no anarchist would take part
in a General Assembly….....it’s illogical to expect all who identify themselves as
anarchist to act in accordance with the norms of “anarchists” as you define them.
people don’t define things all the same and people shitsure don’t all act logically.


as well, you’re simply wrong….they’re there, they’re anarchists. deal with it.

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By Maani, April 18, 2012 at 10:40 pm Link to this comment

hetero:

My question was rhetorical since, as your sarcastic opening statement suggests, NO ONE knows how many of the OWS protesters are/were anarchists.  Not even the “GA regulars.”  In fact, you simply prove my point: no anarchist would even participate in a democratic “general assembly” in the first place.  Yet the overwhelming majority of the protesters did participate.  This means, by process of elimination, that very few of the OWS protesters were “anarchists” in the sense that IMax and you seem to be using that term.

Peace.

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By heterochromatic, April 18, 2012 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

11.3654% of the people attending general Assemblies on Tuesdays, 8.3675% on
Thursdays…...and I get confused a lot on Wednesdays.


if you’re really all that serious about it, I’ll get you an estimate from a GA regular,
one who was at the Anarchist Book Fair (6th annual!!) and who estimates that there
are at least 6 distinct groups of anarchists involved with OWS NYC…... if he ever
makes it home here tonight.

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By Maani, April 18, 2012 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment

hetero:

Define “bunch.”

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By heterochromatic, April 18, 2012 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

Maani—- there are a bunch of people in OWS who call themselves anarchists

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By IMax, April 18, 2012 at 8:26 pm Link to this comment

Jeff,

Are you aware of the anarchist presence within OWS?  Are you able to explain this to Maani?

Honestly, I’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around the notion that I’ve just wasted a great deal of time with someone who knows absolutely nothing of this subject.  I’m nearly appalled.

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By Maani, April 18, 2012 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

IMax:

“Anarchists are not only within ‘Occupy’, anarchists make up an integral part of the ‘Occupy’ nucleus.  That much ought not be in dispute.”

But it IS in dispute.  Being fed up with the current system with its corruptions both economic and political does not automatically equate to “anarchism,” and I doubt very much that a poll of OWS participants would reveal that very many of them self-identify as “anarchists.”

Indeed, the entire concept of the OWS “General Assembly” revolved around “true” democracy (one person, one voice, one vote, and full equality), not anarchy.

You really are grasping at straws, aren’t you?

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By Jeff N., April 18, 2012 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

IMax - I have repeatedly given you examples of first-hand experiences I have had with violence-free, vandalism-free Occupy protests.  If you want to point to the entire length of the Dewey Square encampments and give examples of “rampant violence” that have occurred during this time, that is a separate point to make, and one which I’m not terribly interested in pursuing.  But my personal experience has been one absent of violence and vandalism, and from what I understood that was your experience as well.  Maybe not.

Regarding the tea party and their protests.. while you want to keep the focus on the relative absence of physical danger, I would point out that the danger their views pose to the country as a whole are much more harmful.  Personally, I’m definitely willing to settle for some broken glass and police scuffles if it means pushing forward a good cause.  The tea party, on the other hand, is playing right into the hands of the republican party.  Have you looked at the Paul Ryan budget?  Have you looked at what the right would like to do with health-care and social security?  It is complete lunacy on par with whats going on in Greece and other European countries right now, and they are rioting in the streets over there. 

While you may be correct about the presence of violence in these movements, I am worried that you are not quite appreciating the seriousness of the political and economic realities of the US right now.  These aren’t just punk kids screwing around for the sake of pissing their neighbors off, there are very real issues at stake here.

Take a look at how things are going in Europe right now by the way, we’re not very far off: http://truth-out.org/news/item/8558-the-european-stabilization-mechanism-or-how-the-goldman-vampire-squid-just-captured-europe

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By IMax, April 18, 2012 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

Maani,

Anarchists are not only within ‘Occupy’, anarchists make up an integral part of the ‘Occupy’ nucleus.  That much ought not be in dispute. 

Not all anarchists are violent or destructive.  Very likely most are not.  Not all ‘Occupiers’ are violent or destructive.  It’s equally likely that most are not.

Now, with all that said, at least two organizers of the New York ‘Occupy’ General Assembly currently sit accused of violence, vandalism, assault and incitement to riot in New York two days past.  These two men may or may not have attended an anarchist after-party that same night.

You appear to be going on needlessly.

-

In 2010 you disseminated an article which alluded to the idea that Tea Party gatherings may have been fundamentally racist by nature due to the fact that ‘Tea’ crowds were largely white.  According Occupywallstorg the Zuccotti Park Occupations were 88% Caucasian.

Also in 2010 nearly all comments in this site supported the premise that the obvious anger on display by protesters of the day was the evidence of the danger inherent in the Party itself. - All with little evidence of actual physical violence or destruction surrounding ‘Tea’ events.  Plenty of ding-a-ling signs and angry people, minus the violence.

The Tea Party was able to muster an estimated one million people to surround the Capital in a single day.  This protest effectively shut down the business of the U.S. Congress and delayed, ultimately, dramatically altering landmark health-care legislation.

The largest recorded OWS gathering was found on Sept 17, 2011 with an estimated 17,000 attending nation wide.

I thought my pointing this out may add some historical context.  Obviously today’s protesters are not so inclined to view ‘Occupations’ the same way.

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By heterochromatic, April 18, 2012 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment

Maani—- it’s an exaggeration to say it was centered around OWS….but the people
doing the mindless violence were clearly linked to OWS…..

IMax wants to take it too far, but this sorry shit isn’t something to dismiss as not
related.

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By Maani, April 18, 2012 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment

IMax:

“Clearly I have convicted no one.  Clearly this has been another example of violence centered around ‘Occupy’.”

Wrong.  It is not “centered around ‘Occupy,” clearly or not.  It was centered around an anarchist book fair which a FEW members OWS attended, and a COUPLE of members apparently participated in the post-book fair violence.

The intellectual dishonesty of your arguments screams itself from the rooftops.

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By IMax, April 18, 2012 at 9:10 am Link to this comment

Jeff,

But for the following I would like to give you the last word.

1. I wrote that my eyes saw “largely” peaceful protesters at these events.  I believe this is true of most protests.  Including ‘Occupy’.

2. I am unaware of even a single large ‘Occupy’ event which was free of the types of problems I have reported here.  Noting that there are indeed two sides to every story I would appreciate any information to the contrary.  To date you have been unable to lend an example of a violence free, vandalism free, Occupy protest which you keep writing about.

Last word is all yours.

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By Jeff N., April 18, 2012 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

In the interest of closure though, I will say that I don’t really see the purpose of tactics like this either.  Just trying to create news stories I guess? 

As you and I have noted, however, there have been many peaceful gatherings of Occupy as well. Your warning about the future direction of the movement has been duly, excruciatingly, noted.

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By Jeff N., April 18, 2012 at 8:00 am Link to this comment

I omitted what you already had posted.. and inserted the info that you did not mention.  Seems pretty straightforward to me, there are two sides to every story.  There were multiple statements from various witnesses saying that the cops essentially beat the crap out of two people standing outside the community center.

Actually, you didn’t post a link at all, but you did mention the gothamist so I figured you had read the related articles.

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By IMax, April 18, 2012 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

Jeff N.,

Clearly I posted no link to the item you had.  Why do you insist on being dishonest in order to make your point?  Does this not belittle both you and your arguments?

I thank you regardless of your shamelessness.  From the link you provided I learn the following. 

Several people around the park said that protestors have smashed windows at the Starbucks on Astor Place… as well as the incoming 7-Eleven on St. Mark’s Place…

It’s fascinating what you omitted from your 6:12p posting.  If I had not asked for a source I would not have learned how you omitted the witness statements above and, in its stead, carefully chose the statement from an employee of the “Community Center” which had just prior hosted an after party for the Anarchist Book Fair…..LOL  

You can now resume ignoring these issues.

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By Jeff N., April 18, 2012 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

I figured you would have read your own links, but apparently not..

http://gothamist.com/2012/04/15/nypd_shut_down_east_6th_street.php

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By IMax, April 18, 2012 at 6:12 am Link to this comment

BTW, Jeff, I noted that you omitted any source(s) for your 6:12 pm post.  Is there an underlying reason you’re “not concerned with evidence or facts on the matter”?

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By IMax, April 18, 2012 at 5:58 am Link to this comment

Jeff, - “They got thrown in jail, they must be guilty! Rampant violence!”

-

Clearly I have convicted no one.  Clearly this has been another example of violence centered around ‘Occupy’.

Now try making an honest argument or resume ignoring the issue.

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By Jeff N., April 18, 2012 at 5:48 am Link to this comment

IMax - Yes, we did find more violence.. but for some reason you’re not concerned with evidence or facts on the matter, or the sentiment of the community on the matter.  You just want a quick headline to advance your stubborn argument: “They got thrown in jail, they must be guilty! Rampant violence!”

Choosing sides is unfortunately the only option when talking with you, because there are no shades of grey in your world.  I’ve long given up trying to reason with you, but I do enjoy bleating back and forth at each other for days like goats.. been a slow week at work smile  Going to go see if theres anything on the TD headlines besides “who’s the real mitt romney” by Eugene et al.

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 10:33 pm Link to this comment

Maani,

LOL…you’re actually going to continue to argue that Chris Hedges, a founder of OWS, has no idea what he’s talking about.  How Hedges is painting with too broad of a brush concerning the debate now going on within ‘Occupy’.  I have never suggested that the majority within OWS are creating the violence. - At least get that part correct.  Good grief. wink

Your first attempt was to make it appear as though no OWS members had been involved.  That fell completely apart so, you’re now making this odd argument about there being only two within the New York General Assembly involved. 

Get this through your thickening skull, Maani.  I DON’T CARE IF THERE IS TWO OR TWENTY-FIVE.  It’s about the violence which is seen at these gatherings all over the nation.  And this isn’t the first time an ‘Occupy’ organizer has been involved.  It’s simply the first you’ve been forced to contemplate.

You have some balls suggesting I’m the one with no clue…. LOL

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By Maani, April 17, 2012 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment

IMax/hetero:

Although you seem to be disagreein, you are both showing the same instinct for “broadbrushing.”  If 19 Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings (and I am not saying they did!), does that mean that “Muslims” are responsible for that act?

Just because two of those arrested happened to be part of OWS does not mean that “OWS” was involved in the incident.  Indeed, there were a couple of hundred members of the GA in NYC, so you are “broadbrushing” the entirety of OWS in NYC based on the actions of two members.  Bullshi…

And IMax, this simply goes to absolutely prove my point: when the word of the chief spokesman for the NYPD is not good enough for you, then NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER is going to change your mind.

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 9:47 pm Link to this comment

hetero,

At this point in time and space it’s quite impossible to say that “OWS continues to reject the violence” while organizers are currently debating that very issue, all the while two members of the NY General Assembly sit in jail for allegedly inciting a riot only yesterday.

You can argue all day long on how there are others within OWS in favor of the nonviolent route and you and I will simply agree.

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

IMax——and OWS continues to reject the violence….and has a real problem
disassociating from those folks trying to push violence onto them because of their
generally soft-headed ideas of tolerance concerning those in their midst….....


I’ve no ideas about the rest of the country, but you really don’t understand NYC’s
OWS.

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 9:15 pm Link to this comment

hetero,

As I pointed out in my previous posting, Thommen and Penley are both part of New York OWS General Assembly.

Internal OWS communication: Alexander Penley February 7, 2012 - “After the Chris Hedges love affair going on the last few days- this is more necessary than ever!”

LOL…Maani and Jeff insist I have no idea what I’m talking about concerning heated debates within OWS regarding tactics. - Too funny!

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By heterochromatic, April 17, 2012 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

Maani—- two of the folks arrested, Penley and Thommen, are part of OWS


http://citizenjournalistdotorg.wordpress.com/tag/nicholas-thommen/

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment

Maani, - Full of shit.

-

Violence.  Two OWS organizers arrested.  And you’re going on some odd tangent like I wrote the news. 

Now THAT’S funny…LOL

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By Maani, April 17, 2012 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment

IMax:

Here is the NYT article about the incident.  Note not a single word about OWS being involved - except to state that it had nothing to do with them.  Indeed, here are the words of the chief spokesperson for the NYPD:

“The demonstration, which, according to the police and witnesses, left in its path a trail of graffiti and tipped garbage cans, had more in common with anarchist actions at events like the Group of 20 meeting in Pittsburgh in 2009 than with the Occupy Wall Street demonstrations in New York, which have been largely devoid of property damage.

You are, in a word, full of shi…

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/16/nyregion/3-arrested-in-manhattan-as-march-becomes-a-melee.html?_r=1

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 7:56 pm Link to this comment

While you steadfastly believe this has everything to do with choosing sides you consistently miss the point.  What did we find in the latest report, Jeff? 

More violence.  Imagine that.

-

You can now resume ignoring the issue. wink

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By Jeff N., April 17, 2012 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

“The police just came and brutalized two guys who were standing outside the stoop,” an employee of the community center who declined to give their name said. Another witness, Marc C., said the two men were beaten by the police before being taken into custody. “It was ten cops on two guys, just kicking and punching them. They were plainclothes officers, so it just looked like a fight on the street. Then the patrol cars showed up.”

“There were ten cops screaming and pounding on my window,” said a neighbor who declined to be named because they’re employed by the city. “They storm into my building to get on the roof and they won’t tell me why, they won’t tell me what they’re doing. They lie to me and say they’re checking on something that’s wrong with the roof.” The officers had entered the city employee’s building across the street to shine a spotlight on the roof across the street.

“They even left the door open,” the neighbor added. “I work for the Bloomberg administration. I work for the Department of Health and Human Services. And I’m filing a complaint.” The neighbor continued, “I’m glad the community center is there, it’s a good thing for this block. But it’s unacceptable for the police to just storm into buildings late at night chasing someone who they think is across the street throwing bottles.”

Not so sure the public is supporting the police on this one, IMax.  I would imagine you haven’t had much experience with cops though, so you probably just think of them all as selfless do-gooders putting their lives on the line for poor old widows, eh?

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

I’d spend more time researching those unassailably astute arguments you think you’re making…”  What a wonderful idea!  Let us take another look at what ‘Occupy’ has been up to recently.

-

Occupiers Terrorize Starbucks, Fight NYPD

Occupy Wall Street members decided to occupy the windows of a Starbucks café with metal pipes Sunday, leading to their occupation of New York City jail cells later that Sunday night.

The Gothamist reports:
April 16

  According to police, the two men who were arrested in front of the Sixth Street Community Center last night allegedly assaulted an NYPD sergeant with a metal pipe in front of the Starbucks on Astor Place. One of the men,
41-year-old Alexander Penley,
is an attorney and has been an Occupy Wall Street organizer since the movement began in the fall.

  Penley, along with 30-year-old Nicholas Thommen, were arrested around 10 p.m. after what witnesses described as a violent scuffle between the two men and police officers, and are charged with a litany of offenses, including assaulting a police officer, menacing, criminal possession of a weapon, resisting arrest, and inciting a riot. …

  The NYPD’s press release on the arrests refers to them as “anarchist-related arrests of individuals among a group of 25 who fought with police and who had tried to use eight-foot-long galvanized metal pipes to smash windows of a Starbucks at Astor Place and Lafayette Street at 8:45 p.m.” The police report that patrons of Starbucks were hiding under the tables during the incident.

-

Nicholas Thommen
Alexander Penley

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By Jeff N., April 17, 2012 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

Ooh, how clever IMax! your words sting me so.. I’m truly hurt.

I’d spend more time researching those unassailably astute arguments you think you’re making and less time trying to make yourself feel better by insulting anonymous people on comment threads.  I won’t hold my breath, though.

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

Jeff N.,

You certainly have bolstered the argument that it’s easiest to agree with people you agree with.  It’s a nice, safe, and secure feeling, yes?

Good luck to you.

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By Jeff N., April 17, 2012 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

IMax - lol, that’s great you think I’m really getting angry about this.. I’m simply trying to help you by pointing out to you why everyone disagrees with you almost all of the time on this website and why you end up with these nonsensical debates over and over, for the most part where you just talk down to everyone and prevent any valuable discussion from occuring.  If it was just me then I wouldn’t really bring it up, but I see these comments from people over and over towards you.  You are literally the only person I’ve seen on here who just repeats the same three comments over and over ad nauseum for months on end without change. 

There have been countless discussions I’ve had with many commenters on here where we go back and forth on a particular issue and I have changed my views or learned a great deal more about something because of it.  Unfortunately, this doesn’t happen with you.  I’m sorry you have to conduct yourself this way with apparently no self-awareness, but enjoy the rest of your posts here; not worth my time.

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By IMax, April 17, 2012 at 6:56 am Link to this comment

Jeff N.,

One inherent problem with this type of communication is any sense of inflection between participants.  There has been no glee in my pointing out the problems with Occupying public and private spaces.  I fear the glee you sense is woefully misinterpreted.  From my perspective I would point much more to a sense of dread.  As I wrote prior, I’ll not except anyone telling me there’s no problem before our eyes. 

Health-care: My position is clearly opposite yours.  You advocate “single-payer”.  Please understand that your complaint of my position (and demeanor) can very precisely be mirrored from my opposite point of view.  That is to say; from my perspective of the situation I would assume that even a cursory glance over the available research on the subject would convince you otherwise. - What you cannot see is my light-hearted smile while I point out the irony in your complaint of my position and demeanor.  So, understand, I am absolutely convinced you’re as wrong on the issue as you believe of me.  There is no harm in this.  You being lead to anger and making the issue personal is, well, uncalled for?  Inappropriate?

Iran: In the run-up to the invasion of Iraq, on into today, one of the main complaints is the illegality of that action.  It’s been pointed out countless times that much of the U.N. was opposed to the invasion.  Thus that action, it has been repeated, was illegal.  On the issue of Iran we have nearly the entire United Nations, less one, opposed to Iran becoming a nuclear weapon state.  You continue to argue that Iran (contrary to the demands of nearly the entire United Nations) has every right to pursue nuclear weapons capabilities and that all, particularly the U.S., should butt out. - Do you see the dichotomy?

It is also imperative, from my perspective, to continue making an issue of the fact that every Arab nation on the planet has insisted there WILL BE a nuclear arms race in the region if Iran succeeds.  This not merely my opinion.  If I am to inject my opinion it would be to say how I can scarcely imagine a more frightening future.  So, from my perceptive, the issue of Iran has much less to do with how you personally feel about the United States and everything to do with Iran itself.  Do I believe that, between the two of us, it is me who is seeing the larger global view?  Of course I do.  wink

You and Maani have intimated the same grievance.  So I’ll ask these rhetorical questions.  On which subjects have either of you reversed your respective positions?  Which subjects have the two of you been any less passionate or steadfast than myself?

Maani, in particular, is lead to anger because I simply disagree.  And, not unlike himself, I continue to disagree.

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By Maani, April 16, 2012 at 8:27 pm Link to this comment

IMax:

“I gladly welcome any information which may change my perspective.”

But that is exactly the problem.  Like religious zealots, there is simply no amount of proof that will EVER convince you to change your perspective.  You have proven that time and time again.

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By Jeff N., April 16, 2012 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

IMax - From what I can tell, you continually raise the same three questions on this website, sometimes rearranged to appear slightly different, but generally simply copy and pasted from one week to the next.

Number one (the original thread you mentioned) - “Why does no one support Iran having nukes if they aren’t dangerous?” or something to that effect.  This is simply too narrow and limited a question to be of any use.  My original answer (yes I did answer it repeatedly before giving up) has not changed: who wants any nation to have nukes?  Who is the U.S. to decide which nations can and can’t have nukes when we have our own (and have actually used them, unlike anyone else) and do not stop others from having them as well?  You always say it is not all about the U.S., well, exactly!  Let’s stay the hell out of it for once!

Number two - “single-payer health care will ‘codify’ the power of the 1% in congress”.  I think we’ve been through this enough already and I would defer to Maani’s comment about your seemingly endless ability to argue stubbornly for something that the evidence is overwhelmingly against.  Not that I don’t appreciate you going against the grain there, but I would assume that even a cursory glance over the available research on the subject would convince you otherwise.

Three - The subject du jour, a position which, by your own admission, you’ve been gleefully rehashing since November now.  We’ve both agreed that what we have witnessed first-hand at Occupy movements have been by and large peaceful demonstrations, contrary to your claim.  I’m not discounting what you’re saying, I don’t really have an intimate knowledge of the “inner discussion” going on in OWS, but I tend to think that the necessity of your weekly refreshment of the issue is a bit overdone; clearly you do not.  I can only conclude from this that you enjoy the instigation of the ensuing argument that assuredly follows each time, giving you further chances to sing your own praises about recognizing this big problem months ahead of time.

The humility I’m talking about is the one of not assuming that you’re always right about everything and that you know best (which of course we all do on here), and supporting a continuing, open dialog on issues as opposed to reformulating the same variations of the same argument over and over in this unyielding manner.  Although, on this thread, it does appear we goaded you into the response we knew you would make, so I’ll take the troll nomination for this one.

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By IMax, April 16, 2012 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

Jeff N., - Humility

The first thread which you and I encountered each other I asked a question you found difficult to answer.  It never occurred to me to attack you personally.  It was a fundamental question to the issue and what you had written.  You promptly began explaining how trolls should be ignored.  I’m not complaining, mind you.  Just making a point.

-

I began making an issue of growing problems with ‘Occupations’ roughly last November.  There have been so many of these problems that I’ve taken to asking if anyone here is aware of any one large event to date which have not seen these problems.  There are literally thousands of examples for anyone interested.

You can argue that the problems born from this tactic of occupying public and private spaces is worth your cause.  But I’ll not except anyone telling me there’s no problem before our eyes.  Not when Chris Hedges himself tells us this is the ongoing debate withing OWS itself. 

I’m not convinced this is a lack of humility on my part.  It’s certainly no lack of passion either. - I may poke at Moonbat but, you’ll not find many instances where I’ve been quick to tell someone their stupid.

Humility implies respectfulness.

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By heterochromatic, April 16, 2012 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

IMax—- stick to discussing the claim that occupying shit is ultimately a lousy and
losing tactic, and that trying to maintain various occupations invites violence
rather than placing focus on protesters’ grievences, and avoid declaring that
protesters are out to commit violence from the start, and you won’t be inviting
bullshit from Maani and others.


we might even get to debate the merits of “camping out” rather than worrying
about the side issues.

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By IMax, April 16, 2012 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

Maani,

I gladly welcome any information which may change my perspective.  My problem here, with you in particular, is the propensity to offer countless like-minded opinions and assume the issue is settled.  Open minded people never suggest shunning other’s, divergent, points of view.

-

Occupying public and private spaces has proven to cause a great deal of violence, destruction, and clashes which the greater majority has not supported.  This is concise and factual.

My “opinion” is that ‘Occupying’ public and private spaces has served to minimize, marginalize, and radicalize the message against income inequality and government/corporate collusion and corruption.  I stand with 99% of Americans who are not looking for a revolution.  Remember, Maani, by your own admission, you are the radical minority.  You need the majority to somehow lean your way.

If you’re going to convince the majority you’ll have to show them at least one large ‘Occupy’ event that did not cause violence and/or destruction and hold that high. - Do this and you will have every right to tell me how wrong I’ve been.

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By Jeff N., April 16, 2012 at 2:18 pm Link to this comment

Couldn’t have said it better myself, Maani.

We’re all open to differing ideas and views here IMax, and I enjoy the discussions I have with many commenters on here.  It is a good opportunity to learn and test your own ideas against the collective reasoning of the commenters, but you have to bring an open mind and some humility to the table or we will just end up with these mindless arguments and name-calling going back and forth all the time.

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By Maani, April 16, 2012 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

IMax:

“Diversity?”  Is that what you think you are offering here?  There are plenty of people with similar views to yours who do not resort to arguing a singular view in the absurdly myopic - and insupportable - manner in which you do.  That is, it is not your VIEW that many people here have a problem with; it is your stubborn and arrogant certitude that you are right and everyone else is wrong, even when the overwhelming majority of evidence is against you.

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By IMax, April 16, 2012 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

Maani,

Open minds never advocate shunning diversity.

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By Maani, April 16, 2012 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

IMax:

I am not squelching anything: ignoring you is not the same as asking TD to remove you from the site; you would still have every opportunity to post your comments.

As an aside, I would suggest that calling what you do “dialogue” would be a tad generous.  LOL.

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By IMax, April 16, 2012 at 7:22 am Link to this comment

Diversity of Tactics
This week’s Obamaville death toll hits 4.
November 11, 2011

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By IMax, April 16, 2012 at 4:06 am Link to this comment

gerard,

O.K., you don’t fully grasp what is meant by “Diversity of Tactics”.  Fair enough.  Perhaps a lesson for Maani on simple ‘Diversity’ and the many dangers of squelching open dialog?

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By heterochromatic, April 15, 2012 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

g, they’re not really gonna put Manning away for life ...they want him to talk and
do a soft two or so .....and even if he doesn’t he’ll be out someday.

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By gerard, April 15, 2012 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

hetero:  I asked Teach about that and he refused to answer your question on grounds of possible self-inc
rimination—or is it discrimination?

As to Mr. Wilson, everybody hated him because he was in favor of world peace and had the audacity to propose that the world might someday unite and war might be prevented. As to Debs, every stupid xenophobe knew that Debs was a socialist, a unionist, an anarchist a nonconformist and an atheist of the “dirty little” variety, a spy and a pacifist.

People actually enjoy killing other people because then they can “see the world” and either get killed themselves, or come home as a physically or mentally injured, traumatized shadow of their former selves with one or two medals if they are lucky. (sarcasm here for those who are too literal-minded)
  As to freedom of speech being “a lot more alive than ... “, well, actually, World War One was on everybody’s mind then, and war isn’t very good common sense or for freedom of speech.  As a general rule so as long as the government can keep wars going it doesn’t have to bother with what its people say.  Just scare them half to death and shut them up. Of course nothing much changes, but at least the government doesn’t have to bother listening to   problematic moral nonsense like that, which is only sentimental verbiage meant for political window-dressing anyhow.
  Some government people on the defensive are trying to screw Bradley Manning into a cell for life if they can wangle it.  Not to mention that heroic Assange. Both of them look like people who fell off the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel, but who notices that or takes the hint it suggests?
  Correct me if I’m wrong here, but wasn’t 1918 the year that WWI “ended” and the world was dec;ared
“safe for democracy.?” So much for the efficacy of wars!
  (PS—I had a cousin who died of pneumonia in those filthy trenches and a neighbor who came home and couldn’t find anything else to do but sit on the pickle-barrel at the corner grocery story and tell the same stories over and over and over, smiling foolishly as if it had all been a huge joke!)

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By heterochromatic, April 15, 2012 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

Gradual Student: hey teach !!!! ain’t freedom of speech a shitload more alive now
than when Perfessor Wilson was presiding?

Gene Debs got 3% of the vote in 1912   and in 1918 got 10 years in the pen for
for a speech.

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By gerard, April 15, 2012 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

For IMax, a brief riff on “diversity of tactics”:
  Teacher:  Now, children, today we are going to perform an educational drama illustrating the evil of diversity as tactics.
  A Student: What’s diversity mean?
  Teacher:  Sit down and shut up!
  B Student: There is such a thing as freedom of speech, you know?
  Teacher:  It’s been outdated and is no longer permitted since WikiLeaks.
  C Student:  I don’t get it.  Why is diversity bad?
  Teacher: It’s part of government tactics to educate the people in 21st century democracy. Now if you’ll all just shut up and pay attention ...
  A Student: I’m taping this for the Department of Homeland Security, so you better watch what you say..
  B Student: Put that camera away!  The cops will take it to use as evidence against you.
  Teacher: (rapping on desk) Can I please have your attention?  Your behavior proves my point. You are asking questions, getting unruly, and stepping outside your boxes.  That’s diversity, and its bad.
Diversive is divisive!
  C Student: I have to tell you I forgot to bring my black bloc mask and shield. Are you going to flunk me for that?
  Teacher:  Oh, dear. That’s too bad.  I was hoping to make this a dress rehearsal. You just live next door. Why don’t you run home and get it?
  C Student: Shall I bring the stick that goes with it?
  Teacher: Class, we have a problem to decide. I’m calling a general assembly.  What do you think?
  Hours pass while the class tries to agree on
whether to permit diversity of tactics. The C Student
falls asleep during the discussion.
  When the noon bell rings, they all rush for the local MacDonalds, tear the door off its hinges and threaten to kill several small children standing in line waiting politely for their double-deckers and cokes. Pink slime is optional.
  Nobody has ancare. y clear idea of what diversity of tactics is. Nor do they

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By Maani, April 15, 2012 at 4:20 pm Link to this comment

May I ask why ANYONE is still giving IMax the time of day?  Wouldn’t it just be easier to ignore her and discuss “around” her?

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 2:43 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous, - “you are quite the liar aren’t you IMax?”

-

Actually, no.  You misread what I wrote.

I honestly believe lying on a blog is, well, pointless.  Antithetical to any reason to be here.

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By Shenonymous, April 14, 2012 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

IMax, April 14 at 12:48 pm - you are quite the liar aren’t you IMax?
Do you have a mirror?  Look in it.  I’ve been in support of Occupy
since day one September 17, 2011.  I don’t live near an event site,
so I’ve sent money and clothing and other things, books, etc.  So
don’t tell me I’ve mocked, belittled and ridiculed the entire notion. 

You must be one terribly suffering female. How very sad.  Occupy
wasn’t even a glint in anyone’s eye in 2008, so what the hell are you
talking about?  Looks like you need to bone up on what OWS originally
was about.

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment

Jeff N.,

I neglected to mention: Your constant references to “isolated incidents” doesn’t work after one considers the hundreds in and near Dewey Square alone.  The thousands across the country.

I would ask that you take some time to study local news reports and police blotters in those cities which hosted large Occupy protests.  Rampant is the word which most closely describes the situation.  Which is why Chris Hedges and several others are making these regular acts of destruction and violence an issue of late.

Once again, Jeff, Chris Hedges and others tell us this issue is being hotly debated within OWS.  Those who favor “Diversity of Tactics” and those who do not.  These debates, I’m nearly certain, are not about isolated incidences.  I’m not at all sure why you argue differently.

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

I’ve seen your past comments on reported “infiltrations”.  Like many Americans you mocked, belittled and ridiculed the entire notion.  But then that was 2008. 

I believe law enforcement always has an undercover presence at large protest gatherings.  But posers stirring up trouble and breaking things?  Seems far-fetched.  I believe the 99% would require a great deal more than repeated accusations for the notion to resonate.

-

Jeff N.,

Millions of protesters likely made it prohibitive for the Clinton Administration to place troops in Kosovo and Yugoslavia.  Protesters of the Iraq invasion didn’t prevent the invasion itself, however, it dramatically altered democratic party support and the 2006 Congressional elections.  Tea Protests dominated the entire 2010 election cycle and, even today, effects the entire domestic legislative process.

You strive for revolution.  That goes far beyond simple protest.  If memory serves you’re on record here supporting “Diversity of Tactics”, yes?  You may have reason to oppose me when I make issue of the ill effects of violence, lawlessness, and destruction on the original OWS message, yes?  A grassroots protest against income inequality and government/corporate collusion and corruption, yes?

I support the original OWS message.  You support something entirely different.  My dreams and goals for OWS is opposed by roughly 50% of the electorate.  Yours, roughly 99% .  Occupying public and private spaces will do nothing to meet your dreams and goals.  It doesn’t bode well for mine either.

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By heterochromatic, April 14, 2012 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

gerard—- fragmentation might be a concern though some would call it a plus.

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By gerard, April 14, 2012 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment

Facts:  In addition to Occupy projects current in Salt Lake City, Palm Beacn, Phoenix, Providence, Norfolk, Dallas, Pensacola, Santa Cruz,, Cincinnati, Stockton, Trenton, Flint, Omaha, and Honolulu which I mentioned in one previous post; and Tri-Cities, Philadelphia, Chattanooga, Kansas City, Raleigh, Bend, Las Cruces, Newport, Santa Rosa, Bangor, Rochester, Minneapolis, Cleveland, San Francisco, Norman, and Pittsburgh, I offer you others I have since dug up online:
  Talllahassee, Memphis, Anchorage, New Orleans, and on and on.
  I can’t take the time to spoon-feed Truthdig on Occupy, but it is necessary for people wh o don’t know, and people who seek to undermine OWS that these lists appear on Truthdig regularly to undercut the sabotage and lack of understanding.
  Try this:  Occupy Wall Street Project List, Issue 2, April-May, PDF online now ...tech.nycga.net/.../occupy-wall-street-project-list-issue-2-april. Please post if you find a better source, so others can keep up to date. The variety and originality of many is surprising; the amount of forethought and organization is commendable.  I don’t think we have to worry much about continuance, in spite of negative input, black blocs, ops, cops, dopes, or dupes.

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By Jeff N., April 14, 2012 at 11:08 am Link to this comment

We can see how effective those Iraq war protests ended up being huh?  God knows how you’d be reacting to the rioting and strikes that are going on in Europe right now (justifiably so) if you lived there.  Gota get in and get your hands dirty when the times call for it my friend smile  Have you taken a look at our political system lately?  I can assure you, the times are calling for it.. and Occupy has been by far the best answer so far.

You can keep coming back to these isolated incidents of violence (and you are apparently agreeing with me that what you have seen is largely peaceful gatherings as well), but I will simply say that we have vastly differing opinions about what needs to be addressed by the Occupy movement and leave it at that.

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By grokker, April 14, 2012 at 10:52 am Link to this comment

As expected, IMax, you can’t distinguish between anger and hate, and you wish to now dictate how we should all feel as well as think.
The majority, it is historical fact, has always been ignorant and misinformed. This does not mean stupid. They have been kept in the dark about what is happening to them and almost no one on TD will disagree with that, except you. The comment I made earlier on this thread was mostly tongue in cheek and was intended as humor. But I guess you were in no mood that day for that kind of thing. I was quite surprised by your little outburst towards me. I guess you have some feelings after all and are not the cool, measured tone speaking machine that most seem to think you are. Please inform me as to what is so pleasing about pleasing the majority or why is being a minority such a empty thing? Perhaps you were one of those kids that thrived on popularity and just had to have it.

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By Shenonymous, April 14, 2012 at 10:49 am Link to this comment

There are always in any group a few who go on a frolic of their own. 
Hell I do that myself lots of times and I’ve admitted it when I do, hell
maybe as a fundamentalist liberal I always do??? But those who criticize
the Occupiers need to know the various groups are infiltrated by the
Republican Corporate asskissers who are determined to undermine the
people’s movement.  And we know why.

Occupy chock full of traitors, infiltrators, and provocateurs
http://tinyurl.com/clpktxf

Occupy Wall Street Infiltrator Confesses All
http://tinyurl.com/cqbrbel
The Cynical Times - Painful Truths by Victor Epstein Mar 26, 2012
Journalist owns up to sordid history of deception

http://www.globalresearch.ca/PrintArticle.php?articleId=29493
Infiltration of Occupy: PART I - Infiltration to Disrupt, Divide and
Misdirect are Widespread in Occupy By Kevin Zeese and Margaret
Flowers Global Research, February 25, 2012

http://tinyurl.com/6uzv6vw
Police arrest law-abiding occupiers protesting Darrell Issa’s corruption
February 15, 2012 OccupyGlobe.org Awaken The 99% Suppress The 1%
This past Monday night, February 12th, about a dozen members of
Occupy DC set up tents outside of Merrill Lynch on 15th St NW, to
protest Rep Darrell Issa (R-CA)’s intimate ties with the finance giant.
Issa has made over $1 billion in transactions with Merrill Lynch, and
has been one of its most staunch defenders since the financial crisis.
As the occupiers were conforming to the appropriate laws – that they
be 15 feet from any entrance and not blocking the sidewalk – the Metro
Police Department officers took over an hour to find a law under which
they could arrest them and seize their tents. They eventually found an
archaic law from the 1800?s, according to @OhMatt1 (on Twitter), and
proceeded to arrest our fellow occupiers Sam D and Kelly Canavan.
We will provide more updates as they come.  See video from the scene
at http://tinyurl.com/743762t.  By the way, this article was suppressed
by two browsers, which was verrrryyyy intahresting as I was searching for
it.  Looks like powerful and rich Republican politician Issa may have put
some sort of lock on a couple of the browsers.  I was able to get it
through

Here are four there are many many more but you all get the idea.

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By heterochromatic, April 14, 2012 at 9:35 am Link to this comment

grokker—- I would say that there is a recovery coming…..it’ll be hyped as more
substantial than it will be, but it will be real….and unless OWS avoids the more
dubious stuff, gets serious about ridding itself of the window-kickers and cop-
baiters and works at finding ways to build rapport, it’s gonna shatter.

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 9:14 am Link to this comment

We see dozens like grokker come and go on a regular basis.  People who, when knowingly in the smallest of minorities, like to imagine how the much larger majority are ignorant, stupid, sleeping, or otherwise, out of some affectation, unable to agree with them.

Grokker hates.  He or she is frustrated by the fact that most people do not hate as passionately.

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 9:01 am Link to this comment

Jeff N.,

I recently pointed out to someone else here how they are not actually arguing with me but, rather, some phantom or apparition they’ve created in their mind.

I did not call OWS attendees parasites.  I was replying in response to someone who had.  The first time you asked if I had ever been to an ‘Occupy’ event I answered that I have been to several (like you I saw largely peaceful crowds).  I have repeated many times why I am pointing out the “rampant” violence associated with “occupying” public and private spaces. 

You insist the violence and vandalism I highlight here can be largely ignored because these are the things that are found everywhere.  You’re missing the point entire.  Or, if I may, you’re making excuses to meet your needs.

Unlike the tactic of “occupying” public and private spaces these things did not occur on any regular basis when there was millions, let me repeat, MILLIONS, protesting the wars over Kosovo or Iraq.  We didn’t see these things, in any form, when hundreds of thousands turned out to protest with the Tea Party.  But “Occupying” public and private spaces over extended periods of time, refusing to yield to others who also have a right to use these spaces, has proven to cause a great deal of violence, vandalism, lawlessness and clashes. 

Perhaps you would like to offer your own explanation as to why millions, or hundreds of thousands, can turn out in protest without the obvious problems Chris Hedges is drawing attention to in and surrounding OWS.

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By grokker, April 14, 2012 at 8:46 am Link to this comment

The biggest mistake OWS has made is pushing the 1% - 99% mantra. OWS needs to realize that the “majority” are just followers, and misinformed, ignorant ones at that for the most part. If they see a true liberation movement occur right in front of them, they will climb on board. And no amount of self righteous carping about disassociated violence will dissuade them from that. Keep in mind, the situation is like a snowball rolling down hill. There is no economic recovery happening, unemployment will continue to rise as well as homelessness. The anger of the people increase and the spark needed to ignite the tinder will be generated. Centralized representative government will never solve these problems. If it did, voting would be illegal. Those in power will not relinquish it by seeing people sitting like lumps of clay on a street somewhere. Localized organization outside the realm of D and R uselessness is the only way to begin to move away from the sick machine.

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By Jeff N., April 14, 2012 at 7:51 am Link to this comment

IMax - “So who would like to show us an example of a large ‘Occupation’, anywhere in the nation, where all of the things which took place in Boston didn’t take place there?”

Have you ever actually been to an Occupy gathering?  I repeat, I have been to large Occupy movements several times in Boston as well as DC; I saw none of what you are talking about and it was incredibly peaceful considering the size and the fact that anyone is welcome.

Why don’t you try pointing to any city in any state in the country where these things don’t take place on a regular basis, with or without an Occupy movement.  The people you are referring to as “parasites” are real people, like you and me.  The Occupy movement was taking anyone into the camps who wanted to be there, and feeding them and helping them however the people could, which is in fact a lot more than what our current political system does for them a lot of the time. 

But you don’t want to talk about that do you?  You just want to keep harping over negativity and division within the movement that is not representative of the whole, and chide us with these doomsday warnings about every topic (health care, Iran, etc.) yet continually fail to provide any positive, concrete suggestions yourself.

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By heterochromatic, April 14, 2012 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

BTW, the nephew came back around @AM last night from OWS meeting and
reported that attendance is way down and all those left are of the old faces that
he was seeing last early winter with nary a new one….as well he’s calling the
ones he saw"just the more bourgy white kids” and thinks that unless there’s a
quick infusion of new blood, it’s looking bleak.


——


That set me to wondering about that recent call for a May 1 General Strike…..


He’s on something called the Facilitation Committee for that and is not too
hopeful about it as he says that the march is starting at 4 PM ....which seems to
indicate no one expects folks to actually strike, but instead show up after work
or classes.

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By heterochromatic, April 14, 2012 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

IMax——I’m not at all saying that they’re not a problem, just not a part of what
OWS started out to be or ever intended to be.

the black blockheads belong in a nice junior college campus surrounded by high
non-glass walls when they’re not spending a little time in local jails foe aggravated
assault on common sense, decency and OPP.

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 7:00 am Link to this comment

hetero,

It is you who refer to the violence connected to and surrounding OWS as unintended.  Hedges and I disagree with your position.

Can you now answer my questions?

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By heterochromatic, April 14, 2012 at 6:55 am Link to this comment

IMax—-glad you can see your way to calling them Unintended consequences”
when previously you were, to my mind, trying to fit them in as part of the OWS
plan.

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By IMax, April 14, 2012 at 5:28 am Link to this comment

hetero, - “OWS didn’t know how to handle the parasites that piggybacked on to the protests…”

-

You’re arguing that Chris Hedges is making these parasites within ‘Occupy’ a growing central issue while, in reality, these parasites are nothing of real cncern?  Do I understand you correctly? 

“Hedges enraged members of Occupy’s so-called black bloc contingent in February when he branded protesters willing to commit acts of vandalism and other violence as “cancerous.” —ARK

So what you refer to as peripheral, in attempts to minimize the problem, Hedges calls “cancerous” in attempts to highlight, what he sees as, a central problem.  Your on the outside looking in and Hedges is on the inside looking out and you’re arguing Hedges is exaggerating the issue.  Am I understanding your argument correctly?

Or are you arguing that since these parasites are the unintended consequences of Occupying public and private spaces we can, and should, continue Occupying public and private spaces regardless?

-

I would like to remind everyone here that the debate on whether or not to employ, what is called, a “Diversity of Tactics” is currently going on within OWS.  Not from without.

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By grokker, April 14, 2012 at 3:12 am Link to this comment

Yes, Hetero, IMax is taking things that are peripheral and making them central in some suspicious hyperbolic way. But OWS probably should renounce the negativity of these aberrant societal behaviors, unlike the U.S. government with its CIA drug problem in places like Afghanistan, the Golden Triangle, Iran-Contra, Haiti, Mexico, Panama, south central LA - the list goes on and on. Let’s also mention the money laundering end of it with big banks like Wachovia and even bigger. What’s good for the goose….....

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 10:19 pm Link to this comment

you continue to take things peripheral and call them central…....OWS didn’t know
how to handle the parasites that piggybacked on to the protests and you are
dogged in identifying the parasites as part of the host.

IMax, if I’m biting your part, am I then part of your anatomy?

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment

I find myself disappointed.

First in the fact that here, like most Americans, it’s never fully appreciated the direct link between the illicit drug trade and violence.  Where there is heroin, where there is crack, there is always violence a minute or a day away.  The question is never if.  Yes, Jeff, I’m disappointed that you didn’t immediately see how having crack and heroin dealers taking up residents in and amongst these Occupations is dangerous to the extreme.  And how this likely was the cause of many from the dozens of assaults and arrests in and near Dewey Square while it was ‘Occupied’.

Secondly, the few local media reports in my post, covering only one city, were but the first few I noted from a list of hundreds of the like.  In fact, between Oct.-Dec. of last year there were just over 80 physical assaults in and near Dewey Square including 7 sexual assaults.  Property damage, as of Jan. this year, was estimated in the hundreds of thousands. - This is only one of these ‘Occupations’.

Third.  These same types of things have taken place during every large Occupation across the country.  And none of what I’ve posted so far covers the physical, and often violent, responses from law enforcement in each of these cities. - Violence is violence, is violence, as gerard likes to say.

Millions have protested in these same cities for many years.  Never with these types of rampant problems.  Mainstream American protesters, those OWS most need to ultimately attract, don’t treat every protest like it’s a G8 summit. - Hedges v Black Bloc.  Since November I’ve called attention to how this violence will cause many deleterious effects on the overall of OWS.  Now, in April, Chris Hedges, one of several in the OWS leadership, is bringing attention to the divide amongst others within that leadership on this very issue.

So, there you have it, I’m disappointed.  So who would like to show us an example of a large ‘Occupation’, anywhere in the nation, where all of the things which took place in Boston didn’t take place there?

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

elementary, my dear

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By Jeff N., April 13, 2012 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Getting way too rampant in here.. I demand to see the IMax drug test results.

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By gerard, April 13, 2012 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

hetero:  The Wired article is rampant with ironies. I had to steel myself in order not to fill in the rampant possibilities. It is remarkable how many people are utterly ignorant of the significant relative values listed in the Periodic Table of Elements, especially when it’s all so elemental.

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 6:39 pm Link to this comment

you guys think that IMax is a former East German Olympic Athlete?

http://www.wired.com/politics/law/news/2000/07/37631

Does Truthdig have a urine-testing policy for commenters?

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By gerard, April 13, 2012 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

Jeff N:  I also had IMax pegged for a guy. Wassup?

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

lyin’ rampant

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By Jeff N., April 13, 2012 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

IMax, very interesting.. never would have pegged you for a chick based on your commentary for some reason. 

In any case, you’ve mentioned about 5 or 6 drug possession charges (one of which involves clonidine, a blood pressure medication..?)  Occupy is open to anyone, it is pretty difficult to say that these things would not have occurred elsewhere in the city, they just happened to be in the camps.  And I don’t see how any of those would be described as rampant violence.  Other than that, you have a couple sexual assault charges with no description, a man with a knife making a threat (probably happens every minute of the day in Boston?) and some people rushing a burger king..  Where does the rampant violence part come in?

I acknowledge that there are certainly some incidents that have occurred, some maybe even violent, but to point to these as representative of the whole movement is just grossly disingenuous and I don’t see what the point of these kinds of statements are.  You’re pointing to isolated incidents that could easily have occurred somewhere else if the camps weren’t there and trying to extrapolate that onto the character of the whole movement.  What is the purpose, I wonder (as with the majority of your comments)?  Why not focus on something helpful and beneficial to the discussion?

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By gerard, April 13, 2012 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Dear Rampant: I was so shocked to see your “rampant report”!  I didn’t know there were so many “rampant” members among the large nonviolent crowds in the Occupy Movement nationwide just waiting to pounce on “full houses of restaurant employees and customers (children) who “cowered in fear with a look of shock and disbelief on their faces. (three were arrested)”. I was also surprised to learn that three of the cowering children were arrested! I was profoundly disturbed to learn that the police were allowed to arrest cowering children!  Don’t they have any cowering children of their own to arrest? 
  Furthermore, I thought Occupy was just a bunch of C-student pot-smoking college hippies out to make solid citizens uncomfortable and give city police forces something to do with their chemical equipment. Your report leaves me (almost) speechless!Rampantly yours,  Gerard

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 11:26 am Link to this comment

I support this 110%. - Group recruits Occupiers to protest in D.C.

Getting back to the original ‘Occupy’ message less the petulance and violence.

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

IMax is a she?

Yep yup.

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 11:04 am Link to this comment

Jeff N., - “C’mon man you gota be kidding me with this crap.”

-

I’ve been known to joke from time to time about crap, however, I would never joke about violence.

Yes, rampant.  Meaning thousands of incidents across the nation attached directly to the ‘Occupation’ of public and private spaces.  Much like the November 5, 2011 Boston Herald report of crack being sold out of ‘Occupier’s’ tents in Dewey Square.  Or the November 8, Boston Globe report of a man who said he was living at and involved with the Occupy Boston encampment who was arrested for selling clonidine to undercover officers.  Or the October 22, Boston Herald report of two men both charged with distribution of a class A drug (heroin) and possession with intent to distribute a class A drug within 1,000 feet of a school zone (the 6 year old boy living with them in their tent was sent by authorities to stay with family).  And the Boston Globe report of 21 buildings repeatedly vandalized near and adjacent to Dewey Square.  Or when on November 7, ‘Occupiers’ rushed the dinning area of a Burger King.  Witnesses stated that a “full house of restaurant employees and customers (children) cowered in fear with a look of shock and disbelief on their faces (three were arrested).  Or the November 28 incident reported by the Boston Globe of another ‘Occupier’ who brandished a knife and threatened a man and called his fiance a whore, according to the Transit police report.  And the November 30 WBZTV report of a couple who had been volunteers in the tent city’s “free clothing tent” caught selling prescription drugs out of the tent.  And the November 30, Boston Herald report of two separate sexual assaults against a woman 34 and another 19.

After those and hundreds of other arrests the City of Boston decided to close down the “Occupation” of Dewey Square to protesters permanently.  According to local news reports 82% of Boston area resident supported the closing of Dewey Square to protesters.

Rampant.

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

AFAIK

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By Jeff N., April 13, 2012 at 10:15 am Link to this comment

IMax is a she?

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By heterochromatic, April 13, 2012 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

IMax continues to charge OWS with rampant violence because there has been
some very small amount.

Why she repeatedly pushes this distortion while carping about the imprecise way
that others describe events is a but difficult to fathom.

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By Jeff N., April 13, 2012 at 8:40 am Link to this comment

IMax - “rampant violence seen at every large ‘Occupy’ protest to date”

Really IMax? C’mon man you gota be kidding me with this crap.  I’ve been to Occupy in Boston as well as DC and never seen anything resembling “rampant violence”.  It is a completely unreasonable and, above all, useless argument you are making.

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 8:08 am Link to this comment

Shenonymous,

You see OWS making its mark as a peaceful protest.  I wish I could say the same. 

Have you read Hedges vs. the Black Bloc?  I ask because, as one of the founders of OWS, Chris Hedges appears to passionately argue that no such mark has yet been made.  He appears to argue that the rampant violence seen at every large ‘Occupy’ protest to date has harmed the message tremendously.  I happen to agree.

I would like to witness a peaceful OWS protest myself.  Can you direct me to an example of one so that I may see what you’ve seen?

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By Shenonymous, April 13, 2012 at 6:57 am Link to this comment

gerard, April 12 at 4:23 pm - I’ll walk with you, gerard!  These others
are really unimportant ciphers.  OWS is making its mark as a peaceful
protest. Certainly the Occupiers will take every ounce of publicity they
can get.  That and desperation are what it is all about. 

What a ridiculous criticism. Regular folks not being able to do anything
about the cannibals on Wall Street.  Do you troglodytes have your forks
and knives out.  I hear human flesh is tasty.  Don’t forget to wipe the
blood dripping from your mouth.

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By grokker, April 13, 2012 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

IMax—You certainly are delusional, especially if you can’t even see the decay your great Republic exhibits right now, and your silly, dogged belief in this insane system we are subjugated to. There are other ways of living, namely not participating in the insanity (voting) and building social/economic structures that ignore as much as possible the incursion of the state in our lives. Of course you espouse non violence from the people that are being fucked left and right, but state sanctioned violence is sure OK with you isn’t it, you irrelevant phony.

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 4:59 am Link to this comment

I’m beginning to feel that trying to “accomplish” something politically in this god forsaken shit hole of America is useless.” - grokker

You live in the shit-hole of your own making.  It truly is useless to expect anything near a majority to see what you have created around you.  Let alone jump in with you.

Therefore, I’m officially all for people occupying whatever the F’ they want to just to be a MASSIVE pain in the azz. Who cares about what anyone thinks.” - grokker

That’s right.  Who cares if you’re a hostile azz trying to force your views on others no matter what it takes.  No matter who may disagree.  Of course, acting like a petulant child, stomping your feet in a fit of frustration will effectively get you soundly spanked by the majority.

-

This has been my point all along, folks.  ‘Occupying’ public and private spaces brings out the most insipid, hate-filled, defeatist and violent among us.  Is THIS what you support, gerard?  You certainly haven’t distanced yourself from this petulant, tantrum-throwing, punk.

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By grokker, April 13, 2012 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

IMax has spoken. Now who’s going to nibble at the bait?

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By IMax, April 13, 2012 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

My message has remained the same since roughly the beginning of Nov. 011.  I will continue as long as ‘Occupy’ employes tactics which create violence.

‘Occupying’ physical spaces, refusing to yield to people who want nothing more than to get to and from home and work, attend church, shop for groceries, feel secure in the laws of private property has proven to radicalize, minimize, and marginalize the original ‘Occupy’ message and get people hurt.

On average, in off-year, issues oriented, elections, 14% of self-described liberals take the time to have their collective voices heard.  We then congregate on Web sites such as this and hear the countless complaints on how the liberal agenda is ignored.  All manner of explanations and conspiracies are devised as to why real changes are not in the works.

It’s not a conspiracy.  Nor is it “The Man” oppressing the liberal agenda.  It’s math. - Roughly 20% of Americans identify themselves as “Liberal”.  Of that 20% a mere 14% take the time to vote. 

-

‘Occupy’ the Congress for lasting, significant, change.

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By gerard, April 12, 2012 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

grokker:  Ask Jeff N.  I’m fresh out.  Sorry.

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By grokker, April 12, 2012 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

Pardon me, gerard, would you have any Grey Poupon?

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By gerard, April 12, 2012 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

grokker:  Thought I should warn you that without mayonnaise a troglodyte is absolutely tasteless.

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