Thanks, GRYM.  I really value your opinion of me…

Spin away, good r-winger, spin away.

Fact One: I demanded you present facts and logic.
Fact Two: You rejected that, though an explanation of your reasoning would be speculative.

Logical Conclusion: You are not able to present either sufficient facts nor sound logic to prove your point.

But it could be worse.  I could put you in the same category as M**nr*v*n, but even you aren’t as obnoxious as she is.

ITW,

Are you truly going to pretend you’ve somehow bested me on this issue?  Really?

I asked a simple question.  How is that you KNOW Cheney wanted to postpone the 04 elections.  -  You answered that the DHS Cabinet Director answers to the Vice President.  That alone is demonstrably false, Mo Mo.  <—-This is your evidence that Cheney wanted to postpone the elections?  On misinformation easily proven false in 15 minutes?  And over a Newsweek story that had nothing, whatsoever, to do with the Vice President? 

You claim ONLY right-wingers have debunked your Theory.  Really?  John Dean, one of Keith Olbermann’s favorite contributors, a “right-winger”?
-

I tried to be kind and help you to save face.  You should have chosen to do this in private.  You look ridiculous.

I’m not surprised, GRYM.

Remember “Guys and Dolls” when Sky Masterson says to Nathan Detroit something like “My daddy told me that if a man comes up to you and offers to bet you that he can take a brand new deck of cards, still sealed, and make the Jack of Diamonds jump out and spit cider in your ear, don’t bet him because you will get an earful of cider”.

You have shown yet again that you are engaged in a propaganda campaign. 

You issued a challenge and expected me to be stupid enough to agree to play with a deck you had already stacked.  I’m not about to get an earful of cider.

But you got tripped up when I, unlike my Democratic Senators from NJ in Washington, refused to play the game by your rules.  You right-wingers are SO used to the Dems rolling over and pissing themselves like submissive dogs, you’ve come to expect it, no matter how outrageous the demand.  Oops.  Wrong!  I’m not a victim.

But the simple standard that EVERY scientist must meet is too much for you.  Politicians HATE that standard and try to fake it, as you do.

Facts and Logic, GRYM, Facts and Logic.

Without it, all your assertions and aspersions and insults are nothing but the bullshit I always said they were.

ITW,

Am I up to it?  No.  It was a mistake to attempt a gentleman’s wager between us in the open.

You win.

GRYM gave up too quick! Maybe he’s really a Democratic Senator pretending to be a right-wing-nut?

Yeah, Ridge never said anything like that so CNN and USA Today were just part of the big lib’ral media conspiracy.

And John Dean’s opinion is, to you, unchallengeable.

You are right: I win. You are incapable of presenting facts and logic.  It’s an impossible standard for you.

But…that’s no surprise.

I gave you a demonstration of logic.  Now here’s one of fact:

On September 11, 2001 a commercial jet plane crashed into each of the towers of the World Trade Center.  That’s a fact.

Sometime later that day, each of the towers collapsed, killing nearly 3,000 people.  That’s a fact.

Mossad and the CIA did it.  That’s not a fact.  It’s a conclusion based on easily assailable facts and premises. 

The earth is flat. That’s not a fact.

See? Scientific methodology is easy.

ITW,

Am I up to it?  No.

Facts and logic will not change your perceptions.  Not when Tom Ridge denies he ever said, or even entertained, such an incredibly odd thing.  Not while you believe the DHS Cabinet director answers to the Vice President.  Not while you believe only right-wingers have obliterated your theory into the wind. And not while both CNN and Time, your claimed sources, have each reported that their is no truth to this thing you believe in.

Vice President Cheney is not quoted anywhere near this odd and hate-filled theory you present.  Cheney was never even part of the original story.  Yet you still believe it.

And Bush attacked Iran, declared martial law, canceled the 04 elections and remains in the Oval Office today.  Just as you had written.

No.  I’m not up to it.  You win.

“John Dean”? “Yes or No”?  Still trying the leading questions, GRYM? 

So, as Bugs Bunny put it: “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

(BTW, I already read Dean’s ridiculous article. It is neither facts nor logic—it is OPINION.  You are firing blanks already.)

Facts and Logic, GRYM, Facts and Logic.

You made a challenge. In a duel, the one challenged picks the weapons and the venue.  I have done so.

I’m easy to convince.  Just present me unimpeachable facts and logic that everything I know for the last 6 years is wrong and I’ll concede.  Hell, I won’t HAVE to concede—I’ll be convinced!  (6 years is what you claimed you could prove)

Others have been shocked to have me say “You are right”, but it doesn’t bother me.  However, I will NEVER do it as a result of obfuscation, mis-represented facts, faulty logic, appeals to public sympathy, resorting to “authority”, or anything else other than….facts and logic

No scientific paper is considered valid if it cannot stand up to those two requirements. Any other standard is pure bullshit AND YOU KNOW IT!

That’s all you gotta do…but you can’t so now you’re pulling the spin bullshit to make it seem like I’m the one chickening out, not you.

Facts and Logic, GRYM, Facts and Logic.

That’s all it takes.  Are you up to it?

ITW, - “My way or the highway.”

-

The wager presented was mine.  You either say yes or you say no.

I wish I had faith in your sense of honor to be the judge of what’s reasonable.  Would you accept the judgment John Dean? Hint: It’s a simple yes or no question.

Weaseling already GRYM?  I’m not a Senate Democrat who bends and says OK every time the GOP says “No!”

I’ve told you my terms.  They are simple and straight-forward.  But it’s too tough for you.

You want to “win” a “debate”, but that’s not going to convince ME, and that’s who you have to convince.  This is not a debate to be scored by outsiders.

“All reasonable doubt” means nothing to me.  Only my own reasonable doubt does.

You have to do only two things to win your bet:

1) Produce facts and premises I accept as valid.

2) Demonstrate inferences from those facts and premises via logic I accept as valid.

Valid Logic:
A ==>B, and B ==>C therefore A ==>C
or
2 + 2 = 4 (using Base 10)

Invalid Logic.
A ==>C and B ==>C there A ==>B
or

2 + 2 = 6 (using Base 10)
or,

the old kids’ joke:
“Count your fingers on one hand”
“....1-2-3-4-5”
“Now count them backwards on the other hand” “....10-9-8-7-6”
“5 + 6 = 11 so you have 11 fingers!”

That’s it, GRYM:  That’s all you have to do.
Produce facts and logic that I accept as valid.

And, unlike my spineless Senators, I don’t bend.
You can take it or leave it. 
You gave the challenge, here are my rules.
My way or the highway.

ITW - “YOUR “reasonable doubt” or MY “reasonable doubt?”

-

You missed the point.  I am prepared to prove beyond “ALL” reasonable doubt that you, and yes many others, have believed in an unsubstantiated and intolerant myth.

If a steak dinner is off the table I’d like to offer this; if I am able to show you the vulgarity of your belief on this matter I would like to have you read every U.N. weapons inspector’s report on Iraq along with every relevant U.N. resolution after 1991 so that I can dispel the most outrageous lie you’ve been told and have come to believe in.  If it turns out I am incorrect on this matter I will donate $50.00 to TruthDig.

What say you to that?  Deal?

I am prepared to prove, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT, that you have believed in an myth for the last six years.  What say you?  Is it a bet?
*******************

YOUR “reasonable doubt” or MY “reasonable doubt”?

I’ll tell you what: If you can convince me that everything I know (not “believe”—KNOW) is wrong for the last 6 years, I will GRATEFULLY make a donation to TruthDig, that gives us this format of $50., not $35.  (I actually don’t like steak that much—but I do like Boddington’s).  That way both our anonymity can be preserved.

If you can do it, you’ll find I’ll be very quick to acknowledge, and make that donation.

Remember: you don’t have to convince yourself, or your pals, or somebody else—you have to convince ME, and you have to trust me to acknowledge it if you do.

And you only need to follow two rules:
1) You must present valid premises. That means facts or presumptions that I accept as valid. I, alone.

If you can’t get past this one, there’s no point in even TRYING for rule 2) because I won’t accept foundation-less logic.

2) Your logic must be based on those premises, and must be valid logic, that I accept as valid. I, alone.

Those are my rules: Facts and logic that I accept as valid.  Otherwise you are just convincing yourself that you are “right” and you lose the bet.

I can honestly say that I did not take the rumors regarding the possible coup by Bush et. al. seriously, but having followed Cheney’s career since the Central American purge days, I honestly believe that Cheney would be capable of advocating such action.

From Wikipedia

“The Business Plot (also the Plot Against FDR and the White House Putsch) was an alleged political conspiracy in 1933. Retired Marine Corps Major General Smedley Butler claimed that wealthy businessmen were plotting to create a fascist veterans’ organization and use it in a coup d’état to overthrow United States President Franklin D. Roosevelt, with Butler as leader of that organization. In 1934 Butler testified to the McCormack–Dickstein Congressional committee on these claims.[1] In the opinion of the committee, these allegations were credible. One of the purported plotters, Gerald MacGuire, vehemently denied any such plot. In their report, the Congressional committee stated that it was able to confirm Butler’s statements other than the proposal from MacGuire which it considered more or less confirmed by MacGuire’s European reports.[1] No one was prosecuted.”
“While historians have questioned whether or not a coup was actually close to execution, most agree that some sort of “wild scheme” was contemplated and discussed.[2][3][4][5][6] Contemporaneous media initially dismissed the plot, with a New York Times editorial characterizing it as a “gigantic hoax”.[7] When the committee’s final report was released, the Times said the committee “purported to report that a two-month investigation had convinced it that General Butler’s story of a Fascist march on Washington was alarmingly true” and ‘It also alleged that definite proof had been found that the much publicized Fascist march on Washington, which was to have been led by Major. Gen. Smedley D. Butler, retired, according to testimony at a hearing, was actually contemplated’”.[8]

Given knowledge of such historical events, real or fabricated, concern about the Bush Administration’s intentions were not totally irrational. The “Downing Street Memo” as well as the revelations of former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under the Clinton Administration, General Hugh Shelton, were enough to cause concern regarding the Bush Administration’s inclinations or intentions.

Vigilance on the part of a concerned minority of political observers was not sufficient to prevent the deaths of 100,000s of thousands, the displacement and suffering of millions, the provision of a rationale for terrorists, and continuing war and atrocity.

ITW - “I’ll take a rib-eye, well-done, please.  And plenty of Boddington’s Pub Ale to wash it down.”

-

I understand then you’re taking me up on this wager?  One full steak dinner, two drinks and tip.  Let’s call it $35.00?

I have two question before we continue. 1. Do you want me to show you where you went wrong right on this thread or, would you rather I do it in a private mssg. (provided you acknowledge here who won the wager)? 2. Do you have PayPal?

-

I am prepared to prove, beyond ALL REASONABLE DOUBT, that you have believed in an myth for the last six years.  What say you?  Is it a bet?

ITW and JDmysticDJ,
Both of you are smart guys but unfortunately both of you have emotional investment and attachmnent to the Democratic party that the Democratic party is almost like a cult for both of you.
I am not a cult-deprogrammer, so it is futile and waste of time to discuss with you anymore, anything related to the Democratic party and your beloved Obama.
I have bad sad news for you. There is no difference between the New DLC Democratic party and the Republican party. Both parties serve the same masters and handlers who are the super-rich Corporate/Finance elite.  All that shouting, hollering and calling names are a charade and theatrice to bullshit the public into believing that there are real differences between the two parties.
Call that lunatic conspiracy theories or call what you want or what your washed brain tell you!.

Obama sucks at foreign policy and national security issues; there is little
difference between Obama and the Right on these two issues, but there is a
great deal of difference between Obama and the Republicans on domestic
issues, if not, how do you explain the differing opinions and conflict?

You think there’s a conflict?  I think the conflict is a charade that marginalizes
the debate to two parties which serve $$ circles.  Sure there are differing
opinions like maybe Ralph Nader or Kuccinich.  But those crazies are banned
from the limelight and can’t compete with the sell out to the lobbyist types.

It makes me wonder if the Democrats exist for one reason only?  If they didn’t it
would simply open up a vacuum for a new coalition to take the Party’s place-
one that has not been corrupted to the core-something like the Green Party
perhaps.

You think foreign policy and national security doesn’t have any connection to
domestics?  So NAFTA and The War on Terror don’t have any influence on say
peoples taxes. unemployment, austerity measures, and so forth?

Obama sucks at foreign policy and national security issues; there is little
difference between Obama and the Right on these two issues, but there is a great
deal of difference between Obama and the Republicans on domestic issues, if not,
how do you explain the differing opinions and conflict?

You think there’s a conflict?  I think the conflict is a charade that marginalizes the
debate to two parties which serve $$ circles.  Sure there are differing opinions like
maybe Ralph Nader or Kuccinich.  But those crazies are banned from the limelight
and can’t compete with the sell out to the lobbyist types.

It makes me wonder if the Democrats exist for one reason only?  If they didn’t it
would simply open up a vacuum for a new coalition to take the Party’s place-one
that has not been corrupted to the core-something like the Green Party perhaps.

TD3:

Then your argument must be that Obama being “deliberate” (as you point out) is merely one of the hundreds of Dem drones in Washington ALL selling out!

I’ve got a hint for you: The President of the United States is STILL the most powerful person on Earth.  He only has ‘handlers’ if he WANTS handlers.  He can get rid of them in a New York minute.  Notice that Bush did just that, repeatedly.

But in the conspiracy theorists’ minds there’s this sort of controlling creature (like Heinlein’s slugs that rode the shoulders) that runs all our governments, our elections, our police, our firefighters—even our garbage collectors.

Invasion of the Body Snatcher Pod People.

Step away from the hash pipe!

Truedigger3

You’re totally wrong. They didn’t pick me because of my intelligence; it was my boyish good looks and my expensive wardrobe that impressed them. They quickly told me that what I would be doing didn’t require a lot of intelligence. My job description as described was, “Offering basic logic, and rational thinking to irrational paranoid lunatics,” it’s really kind of a throwaway job, but that’s O.K., I enjoy the office parties.

Michael Cavlan RN

Do I have to explain that the above is sarcasm?

Re: By By JDmysticDJ, December 8 at 11:12 pm December 8 at 11:12 pm

“Truedigger3

I’ve read many of your posts, I usually read all the posts, but I can’t recall anything that you’ve written that stood out, had any significance in any way, or that demonstrated the least little bit brilliance.”
—————————————————————————-
JDmysticDJ,

I cannot judge how “brilliant” or “significant” are my posting, but I can judge you and your posts.
I say you have above the average intelligence and that is why they picked you to be one of their shills and trolls.
I read your posts and consistently all what you write is attempts to justify and find execuses for Obama and the Democrats for their dispicable betrayal of the people who voted for them with all hope for a change.
You say that you are still CONFLICTED about Obama and probably he is misguided????!!!! GET OUT A-HERE!!!!
May be you are not a TROLL or SHILL, but just brain washed and emotionally attached to the Democratic party after investing many years of your life believing in it. Bear in mind that the NEW Democratic party is not like the Democratic party of Rosevelt and Lyndon Johnson, but it is the party of Clinton, Rahm Emenuel and Kerry!!.

GRYM:

I’ll take a rib-eye, well-done, please.  And plenty of Boddington’s Pub Ale to wash it down. The ONLY articles “disproving” it are all written by right-wingers who claim Bush couldn’t do it.

Yet both CNN and USA Today reported the Tom Ridge, who as head of Homeland Security was considering it—and he answered to Mr. Cheney.

Re: By Inherit The Wind, December 8 at 1:03 pm

ITW wrote:
“Notice that in your use of reductionism, you totally ignored that I said Obama is merely following the path that Democrats have taken of spinelessness since their massive defeat in 1994, and that didn’t change as they gained strength in 2004 and recaptured both houses in 2006.  It wasn’t Obama backthen doin’ all that capitulatin’—he was just one senator out of 100.  It’s been the “plan” of the leadership of the party to try not to offend as many people as possible.  As my teen would describe their strategy “FAIL!””
——————————————————————————-

ITW,

I think and assume you speed read because you didn’t get what I am trying to say either.
My complaint against Obama is NOT that he is spineless or trying NOT to offend as many people as possible. My complaint against Obama is that he is INTENTIONALLY, WILLINGLY and DILEBERATELY is in complete COLLUSION and PARTNERSHIP with the Republicans in serving their common masters and handlers, the super-rich Corporate/Finance elite.
Obama is performing as planned by his masters and handlers.
The same apply to the New Democrats e.g. the DLC Democrats who control the Democratic party since Clinton election.

Michael Cavlan RN

When I said, “If Obama has thrown the American people under the bus, you can be sure that
a Republican would throw the American people under a freight train.” It was a simple metaphorical analogy; I did not expect that anyone would interpret it absolutely literally. I should have known that some here lack the intellect to distinguish metaphorical analogy. However, I did error, I should have said, “Obama hasn’t thrown us under the bus, but you can be sure that a Republican would throw the American people under a freight train.” This corrected sentence is closer to reality, but still slightly metaphorical, so don’t let it throw you into a hysterical tizzy.

I’m sorry for mentioning Nader with anything less than a worshipful reverence, I know that drives you people nuts.

Truedigger3

I’ve read many of your posts, I usually read all the posts, but I can’t recall anything that you’ve written that stood out, had any significance in any way, or that demonstrated the least little bit brilliance. I think I’ll remember your latest, seeing as how you told me to get lost, and narrowed my relevance to being either an idiot or a troll, (By the way, what is… a troll?) Never mind, I’ll probably remember you from now on. (I hope I don’t confuse you with some other unmemorable poster.)

—————————————————————————

Obama sucks at foreign policy and national security issues; there is little difference between Obama and the Right on these two issues, but there is a great deal of difference between Obama and the Republicans on domestic issues, if not, how do you explain the differing opinions and conflict. It’s not rocket science; they ain’t the same. The most obvious difference is that Republicans place politics and ideology above the welfare of the people, while Obama puts the welfare of the people above politics and ideology. It appears that many here also put politics and ideology above the welfare of the people, specifically, the most vulnerable of the people. There is much talk here at truthdig about justice and compassion, so, where are these characteristics manifested. They appear to be missing. Did these characteristics become MIA because of the war against tax policy, and supposed Obama treachery, cowardice, whatever?

Personally, I think the Democrats did give up too much, but to paraphrase Inherit The Wind, that’s nothing new. I’m pissed at Franklin Roosevelt because his second act in office was to cut the pay of Federal Employees, and reduce veteran’s benefits. Without going into detail, I’ll simply say that the unemployed can not afford a lengthy debate on tax policy similar to the Health Care Debate before they get their benefits restored. You may consider Obama to be the “Grinch” but I believe he better resembles another mythical character associated with the holidays… (I’m thinking of Rudolph) I’ll bet you thought I was thinking of Santa, huh.

It’s odd, Obama came to office touting bi-partisanship, and after two years many of his independent supporters have been driven into the arms of his partisan opponents, and his base has been divided by partisanship. It must be divine retribution. Too many drone strikes, or too much collateral damage, or is it just because he’s: A “Wimp,” “A piece of shit,” “A pathetic spineless coward,” “a f%$king farce,” “A collusion[ist],” “’A sleazy’ ‘manipulator of the English language’ and A ‘Mfer,’” A “Putz,” “[Worse than] A Quisling,” Or is it because he “…sucks fascist dick, and swallows”?

With the exception of a very few rational posts, this thread is still a cesspool.

@Go
“TruthDig regulars haven’t caught on yet.  To criticize the first Negro U.S. President is to be labeled a racist.”

Who did you vote for, Mr. Open-Minded?

ITW,

Let’s prove the point.

Can you show us how you KNOW (not guess. not surmise. not suppose. not imagine) that Richard Cheney “wanted to postpone” the 2004 elections?  Can you do that?  I’ll bet a steak dinner you cannot.

I make this wager understanding full well what you believe you know.  You see, ITW, I can actually prove that you’re wildly exaggerating an incident you picked up from media.  You have taken that exaggeration and molded it into your psyche as an actual fact. 

I fully understand that you believe your claim to be true.  But I also fully understand that it is your hatred for the man that has molded this “fact” you believe in.

One steak dinner for you and an opportunity to either prove yourself correct, or me 100% wrong. - Good luck

-

You did claim Bush would absolutely attack Iran before his term was finished and declare an emergency in order to maintain his seat in office.  You heralded it as the coming end of democracy.

- I listen.

I have suggested this before and I will continue to espouse the same belief that Blobama will be considered one of the greatest political disappointments in not only US history, but world history.

GRYM:

I have no idea what you are talking about—just another of your primal screams, I guess.

You simply consistently advocate a series of steps that leads to a totally skewed, fascist society.

I am disappointed with the President. Yes, that’s true.  I was never disappointed with Bush—it wasn’t possible. I was merely terrified by him, but to give the putz credit, he recognized what a loony-tunes maniac Cheney was (who wanted to “postpone” the 2004 election—you forget that, conveniently) and neutralized him for his last two years.

Carl Moore: you forgot to mention the lantern that the statue is holding.

aacme88: once Obama was chosen as president, repukelicans immediately made know-through numerous Fox networks and from Rush, Billo and others at foe and fiends, that they would do everything they could to bring down Obama, even if it destroyed America in the process. They have proven this fact to be true. They never gave a damn about the 98% of America which probably all of us on TD fall into. We are the expendable in their eyes to dispose of in their countless wars and their corporate downsizing so the rich get richer. Once there is no more money left for them to steal from us, there will be no need for us anymore. They do not care if we die from their greed, they have no souls.

ITW,

It is now complete.  Everything said of Bush and Co. has now been said of team Obama. 

You were so very certain.  You were absolutely certain Bush would NEVER SURRENDER THE WHITE HOUSE, you screamed.  You were certain alright.  Certain Bush would ATTACK IRAN, START ANOTHER WAR, and implement MARTIAL LAW!!!!!!!!!

IT’S THE DEATH OF DEMOCRACY, you repeatedly yelled.

-

Here you are today.  Just as certain that what you’ve created is real.

It’s the hate and fear that consumes you.  When will you see how it blinds your mind to real domestic and global events?

ITW,

You just don’t get it, or you get it and are trying to bullshit us.
Obama didn’t capitulate or give in, he is just doing what he is supposed to do as desired by his handlers who selected him and paved the way for his meteoric strange rise and eventually financed his election.
*****************

Since I don’t live in your fantasy conspiracy world, but instead rely on Occam’s Razor for analysis, I guess I just don’t “get it”.  But, then again, I don’t “get” talking in “tongues” either.

Notice that in your use of reductionism, you totally ignored that I said Obama is merely following the path that Democrats have taken of spinelessness since their massive defeat in 1994, and that didn’t change as they gained strength in 2004 and recaptured both houses in 2006.  It wasn’t Obama backthen doin’ all that capitulatin’—he was just one senator out of 100.  It’s been the “plan” of the leadership of the party to try not to offend as many people as possible.  As my teen would describe their strategy “FAIL!”

I’m sure it’s tough to negotiate with people who won’t extend unemployment without paying for it but want the tax cuts for the rich, because they are deficit fighters.
I’m sure it is.
So you don’t try to negotiate with them. You FIGHT them. And win!
That’s politics. And life.

“The size of the compromise package, roughly half of which came from extending all the Bush tax rates for two years, roughly paralleled Mr. Obama’s initial $800 billion package of stimulus spending and tax cuts in early 2009…”

Except that in this one the rich get all the tax breaks while everybody else gets to pay for it.
The Congress should call the Reps bluff, go out with a bang! Let the tax cuts expire.
The Reps negotiate with the balls-out abandon of someone who doesn’t care what happens to the country. We need to get a little of that attitude because we DO care. Crash the Cuts.

I’m not too happy with the revised Free Trade Agreement with South Korea either. 
They said it would “support” 70,000 jobs which by no means is the same as
creating jobs.  In fact, I see it as taking away hundreds if not thousands of
potential American jobs by continuing the age old tradition of corporate
outsourcing.  This in a time when official unemployment just shot up to 9.8% And
people aren’t noticing these things?  In my opinion, it’s shit like this and the Israel
thing that’s even more blatantly contemptuous of democracy than the Wikileak
revelations.  Wake up and smell the coffee.  No one needs Wikileaks to know
they’re getting screwed.

Re: By Inherit The Wind, December 8 at 5:29 am

ITW wrote:
“I’m disgusted and repelled by Obama’s latest capitulation to both the Re-thugs AND What-a-Yahoo!

I don’t think he’s a closet re-thug or a Zionist.  I think he just doesn’t know how to deal with in-your-face intransigence figuring you can always reason, and, when he can’t gives in for just a token fig leaf.”
——————————————————————————
ITW,

You just don’t get it, or you get it and are trying to bullshit us.
Obama didn’t capitulate or give in, he is just doing what he is supposed to do as desired by his handlers who selected him and paved the way for his meteoric strange rise and eventually financed his election.
As another sweet nugget from Team Obama. I just read that the Obama administration dropped its “demands” for a freeze in building Israeli settlements in the occpied Palestinian West Bank!. 
What a f(*king another farce.!  It seems that the farces keep coming and I assume that many people got used to them that they meet them with resigned shrug and deep sighs.!!

Rumor has it that BP has arranged production of miniature statues of
president Obama in a red cap, red shirt and white jockey pants.  The first one
has been placed in front of BP headquarters in London where all members
of the board are seen to pat him on the head upon entering and saying,
“good boy.”  They have sent the remainder to Goldman Sachs, Merrill Lynch,
Rupert Murdoch and an assortment of hedge funds.

DJMytic posts

I’m conflicted about Obama. I think he’s a misguided, wrong headed, well
meaning, War Criminal, but I will continue to state my belief that Obama and
the Democrats will be more likely to come to their senses than Republicans will.

If Obama has thrown the American people under the bus, you can be sure that
a Republican would throw the American people under a freight train. Actually
it’s the American people who will be throwing Obama under the bus, then
what? Obviously, none of the progressive politicians are good enough for
people here. Any Politician who voted for the best health care reform that was
possible under Senate rules and corporatist obstruction, is a traitor and not
qualified. So who would be a good viable candidate with enough support to
defeat the Republicans? Oh yeah, Nader! He’ll get her done! Maybe Cynthia
McKinney will be the ticket. Yeah, can’t you just see the ground swell of
support by the American electorate for a third party candidate, or an unheard
of Democratic challenger? How about Michael Moore (No! Moore is a just a shill
for the Democrats) Al Franken (No! Franken is just anther piece of shit health
care reformer.) I’m open for suggestions. I’d prefer a more authentic impossible
to elect progressive myself, that’ll show em.’

My response

HOW do you respond to this level of cowardice? Obama may throw us under the
bus but Republicans will throw us under a freight train?

Is this guy kiddinng us? Is he REALLY that much of a COWARD?

I’m disgusted and repelled by Obama’s latest capitulation to both the Re-thugs AND What-a-Yahoo!

I don’t think he’s a closet re-thug or a Zionist.  I think he just doesn’t know how to deal with in-your-face intransigence figuring you can always reason, and, when he can’t gives in for just a token fig leaf.

But he’s not alone.  This has been the history of the Democratic Congressional herd of sheep since 1994, and especially since George W. Bush took office.  Remember: They were all rolled on Alito and Roberts, along with a slew of COA judges.  Obama wasn’t President then.  They were rolled as far back as the Bush tax cuts in 2001, and again on Iraq.

It ain’t just Obama—it’s Democrats in Washington.  Was there a lesson to be learned from Munich? Yes: You can’t appease lunatics! You have to fight them, sooner or later or you end up with a totalitarian society.  Too many chances have been missed and now more are being missed.  I’m sure my two spineless Senators, Lautenberg and Menendez will stand up to be counted….for capitulation.

Re: By JDmysticDJ, December 7 at 8:55

JDmysticDJ wrote:
“I’m conflicted about Obama. I think he’s a misguided…”
—————————————————————————
JDmysticDJ,

After all what have been said and done, you come and say that you are “Conflicted”, and you think that Obama is “Misguided”, then you are either an idiot or troll, and in either case you lost your credibility with me, and probably with most of the posters here. Get Lost.

JDMysticDJ, are you calling truthdiggers Irrational Hate Mongers?  Because that
would be a perfect way to describe the U.S. government right now.

JD…take your meds and go lay down for a while

Words fail me. There is no logic that can make it through the numb skulls. People here run the gamut from being incredibly stupid, to being vile little cretins. You think you’ve triumphed with your stupidity and hatred, but further on down the road, if you weren’t irrational hate mongers, you would see how wrong you have been, but being irrational hate mongers, you’ll only find someone else to hate, and blame.

This thread is a cesspool.

‘Republicans never cease to be partisan on every issue, so “bypartisanship” can
only mean that democrats must accept the republican position’

On point!

The latest installment of GRYM’s fairy tales brings us:

“Obama over-reached after the 2008 elections
and the majority of voters pushed back.  Basically the message was “Hell
No”.”

Reality would note that it was more due to the 28 million voters who said “I aint voting for any of them” coupled with the on message ( horrific and stupid as that message certainly is) GOP motivating the extremists like Tea Party dimwits who know virtually nothing about issues or solutions and only parrot what they have been told to think. In fact, it is only the Republicans who say ,“hell no” and they say it about everything.

But then this Brother GRYM is never really concerned with fact, only ideology.

That anyone might think this conciliatory incompetent President is capable of over reaching is, in itself a remarkable over reach.

****************

For what it is worth, the rubber stamp duck of a
president is exactly what I saw him as in 2008
when he pledged his and this country’s complete
support to corporate america and the american
izraeli public affairs committee and I have been
correct in every way as all of o’s actions
demonstrate. Just those 2 promises he made was
enough for me to vote for Nader as I see what is
happening now, just 2 years +/- into his
fraudulent term, is what I expected if and when
he was elected.

Everybody is guilty. Of course, it has taken the
subverted msm to make us that way, but
somehow we, the people, are quite comfortable
in blowing off steam but very uncomfortable in
doing anything to stop the disaster. Like when
the enemy attacks, just go hide and maybe they
will go away, which is the pure rubbish the
vassals want their serfs to do. Frozen in place
staring wide eyed at the approaching headlights.

Actually, we all know what we need to do but as I
said earlier, the msm AND religious ideology have
narcotized us so well, that revolting is too
revolting and according to too many ‘not right’,
only proper and nice words and actions are all
that is required that will get what we want, our
country back.

But I find it rather hard to act as such when the
real enemy is robbing, raping, killing and kicking
the people while they stand and when they are
down. But as I said, the msm and religion has
placed some incredible barriers in the mind to
prevent this ‘inconvenience’ so’s it won’t be too
hard for the vassals to deal with the unruly serfs.

Obama sucks fascist dick, and swallows.

to: de profundis clamavi,

I’ve stated your basic theory before in my own words on other blogs and I’m still here. Fret not, because it doesn’t matter; they are too much in control to take us seriously. After all, what can we do?

Vote, write letters, stand in the cold holding signs, advise our children as best we can (maybe our only long term hope at this point). In the end what good does it do when our own CHOSEN leaders fail us? Refuse to even put up a semblance of a fight? 

It’s a tough pill to swallow and reminds me of the very famous, and more applicable as I get older, line: “...living lives of quiet desperation.”

I think it was Groucho Marx.

It is a money thing- he has a lot but can SMELL more!  It has a medical term-
omg- my own private jet, praise the lord! let it rain let it rain I am rich at last!

De Profundis..Didn’t Obama’s mother work for Geithner’s father?

Geithner’s father, Peter Geithner, was head of the Ford Foundation’s Asia grant making for a period in the early 1980s, including micro finance grants. He traveled and lived throughout Asia—which to me smells like a perfect CIA cover.

Obama’s mother Ann Dunham-Soetoro developed the micro-finance program in Indonesia. The latest, according to Ian Wilhelm of the The Chronicle of Philanthropy, the Ford Foundation says, “they met at least once in Jakarta.”

Obama is: A “Wimp,” “A piece of shit,” “A pathetic spineless coward,” “a f%$king farce,” “A collusion[ist],” “’A sleazy’ ‘manipulator of the English language’ and A ‘Mfer,’” A “Putz,” “[Worse than] A Quisling,”

Obama and his advisors are not as clever and devious as people claim. If they were all that clever at manipulating the English language, they wouldn’t use the words “Collateral damage” to describe the unemployed who could lose their meager incomes.

I’m conflicted about Obama. I think he’s a misguided, wrong headed, well meaning, War Criminal, but I will continue to state my belief that Obama and the Democrats will be more likely to come to their senses than Republicans will.

If Obama has thrown the American people under the bus, you can be sure that a Republican would throw the American people under a freight train. Actually it’s the American people who will be throwing Obama under the bus, then what? Obviously, none of the progressive politicians are good enough for people here. Any Politician who voted for the best health care reform that was possible under Senate rules and corporatist obstruction, is a traitor and not qualified. So who would be a good viable candidate with enough support to defeat the Republicans? Oh yeah, Nader! He’ll get her done! Maybe Cynthia McKinney will be the ticket. Yeah, can’t you just see the ground swell of support by the American electorate for a third party candidate, or an unheard of Democratic challenger? How about Michael Moore (No! Moore is a just a shill for the Democrats) Al Franken (No! Franken is just anther piece of shit health care reformer.) I’m open for suggestions. I’d prefer a more authentic impossible to elect progressive myself, that’ll show em.’

I just noticed GRYMie posted here. He’s gloating with glee. You may as well move over to GRYMie’s side, the results of your blind counter productive hatred will serve his agenda well.

Before the mid-term elections I tried to make people aware of how this cacophony of hatred directed at Obama and the Democrats would serve the republicans. I was prescient.

Not in my lifetime have I seen such a helpless, hapless, feckless, clueless appeaser in the White House. George Bush was a disaster of a dry drunk fool who could barely finish a sentence, bankrupted America and left the rest of the world hating us and in flames. But he understand how to fight for those wrong-headed things he believed in and he never betrayed his base. Obama, when he isn’t sticking a knife in the back of the people who got him elected, can’t fluff Republicans hard enough. What a disgrace.

“Those who lead the country into the abyss
call ruling too difficult
for ordinary men.”
—Bertolt Brecht

Does anybody else wonder exactly what is contained in those as-yet-unreleased “thermonuclear” wikileaks documents? Think about this:

If Obama was brilliant enough to come from nowhere and go to the top of the class at Harvard Law School, then he cannot possible be so stupid that he really thinks a 12 month $56 billion extension of unemployment benefits is a fair trade for $700 billion and two years worth of tax cuts for the richest 2%. It’s just too obviously a terrible, terrible deal. But Obama is a brilliant man. How can this discrepancy be explained?

Here’s what I think. It should by now be obvious to all of us that Obama is not who he pretends to be. I think he is a right-wing mole, a real-life Manchurian candidate, probably recruited by a shadow organization backed by billionaires during the early to mid 1980s. Maybe he was even recruited by the CIA. If the CIA can recruit, groom and support moles in Russia for decades before they go active, why not in domestic left-leaning politics? Maybe it was Reagan’s idea, or Bush 41’s. He was, incidentally the head of the CIA for awhile in the 70s.

So they picked out a brilliant, articulate young African American student, and recruited him to become the torpedo that would ultimately destroy the liberal/progressive political movement in American politics. He could have gone anywhere and had a brilliant career as a Wall Street lawyer, a law school dean, a university president, a federal judge. Anything he wanted. Instead, he went and posed as an idealistic activist nobody in the African American community of Chicago. Huh?

Fast forward 20 years or so. Obama’s handlers press the button in the run-up to the DNC convention. Candidate Obama, recruited and groomed to subvert and destroy the Democratic Party, goes active. He presents a brilliant speech at the DNC convention, upstages the actual Democratic presidential nominee, John Kerry, and is the instant rock star of the left.

But just look at what he has done since he won election. Every single one of his key appointments, every single strategic political decision he has made has sapped the energy of the progressive cause, sown dissension among Democrats and handed over more money and power to the Wall Street financial institutions, the pharmaceutical companies, the insurance companies, the military industrial complex. I need not enumerate the detailed history of Obama’s repeated betrayals of his supporters. Everyone reading this website knows them off by heart.

Obama has not betrayed his principles. He has carried out his mission to destroy democracy in the United States. By the time his presidency is over, the country will be bankrupt and ready for a right wing authoritarian government to seize power and institute a breathtaking austerity package that will reduce 90% of Americans to a third world standard of living: end Medicare, end Social Security, end public education, permit people to starve and die in the streets, and deploy an army of mercenaries on the ground to shoot any common Americans who oppose the regime. 

So what exactly IS the story contained in those “thermonuclear” wikileaks documents? I suspect it is a secret even darker and more viciously evil than we dare to imagine.

I pause to wonder about my personal safety just for posting this on a public website. If you notice there are no further posts from De Profundis Clamavi, you might ask yourself if perhaps my speculative guesses were dangerously close to the truth.

Obama should declare himself a Republican and have done.

from the NYT piece: “It [tax compromise] would reduce the 6.2 percent Social Security payroll tax on all wage earners for one year, putting more money in the paychecks of workers.”

well, putting more money in the hands of workers sounds all nice.  but aren’t social security fund projections based on the 6.2% tax? and if the economy doesn’t do some kind of miraculous turn-around in a year, won’t the payroll tax decrease just be extended another year? and then probably another year and another year?  the social security fund will be able to pay people in full til 2037, then at 78% thereafter if no changes are made.  but these projections are made on the 6.2% rate, not a 4.2% rate. this plan looks like it will play out to fray more of the protections given to the vulnerable by the new deal. upcoming austerity for the elderly, continued tax breaks for the ultra-rich!!  what a fucking joke

Obama deserves some civil disobedience.  A progressive protest at the gates of the White House with everyone dumping a gallon of red paint to represent the deaths he is causing abroad and the death of the middle and lower classes in this country.

Yet we can all bet that the Democrats will still carry water for him. Including
the “Progressive”  Caucus. They all support this farce

Dear God. I ran against Keith Ellison, who is now the new Co-Chair of the
“progressive” caucus. Talk about being proven right. Yet as a candidate for
Congress, I was ignored by “progressive” groups, “anti-war” groups,
“progressive” bloggers, corporate media, “progressive” media had Ellison
REFUSE to engage in a meaningful debate, had the MN League of Women Voters
refuse to allow our campaign into the debate, had the League of Women Voters
exclude our campaign from their printed Voters Ballot Guide.

I had been endorsed by Ralph Nader, Cindy Sheehan, Cynthia McKinney, a
National Muslim American Women’s Organization (Ellison was the first Muslim
elected to Congress)

Dear God.  Even Amy Goodman interviewed Ellison TWICE in the weeks before
the election and she also blacked out our campaign.

It was horrifying to say the least.

Sadly, our merry little campaign has been proven right. Again.

Yes. Keith Ellison has supported Obama and in fact said that those who
criticized Obama from the left were the same as Tea Baggers. We never were
granted the ability to publicly respond.

TruthDig regulars haven’t caught on yet.  To criticize the first Negro U.S. President is to be labeled a racist.

I am amazed at the overwhelming and flagrant racism on this “progressive” Web space.

-

On to business.

The fact is the democrat’s midterm election defeat has set a modern record.  The last time the democrats had fewer than 200 members in the House was 1947.

Nov. 2010: Under Obama’s leadership the republicans have added over 675 seats in this election cycle.  Across the country republicans picked up a net gain of 998 seats from democrats in 87 chambers.

According to Roll Call, Nov. 9, “Republicans flipped 19 chambers, including the House and Senate in six states: Alabama, Maine, Minnesota, New Hampshire, North Carolina and Wisconsin.  In Minnesota Republicans claimed 41 seats between both chambers, taking control of the Senate for the first time in history”.

-

Obama over-reached after the 2008 elections and the majority of voters pushed back.  Bascially the message was “Hell No”.

Nobody on this Web space enjoys hearing it, however, we live in a Center/Right Nation.  Democrats must now compromise out of fear of losing 2012.

let"s see:  Extend the Bush tax cuts all around, extend unemployment insurance, cut the payroll tax, extend the moratorium on the inheritance tax.  Maybe I don’t get it, but how does this help to reduce the deficit——-it would seem if someone was intent on increasing the deficit this is exactly what they would do!  Fasten you safety belt——the rocky road of inflation is just ahead.

@ Jason Griffin

Walk into a trap?? That presumes Uncle O. had some other intention besides codifying the delinking of the vampire class from any and all financial responsibility to this society. (Much as he’s codified—in fact gone way beyond—the Bush/Cheney Police-Torture State.)

Vidkun Quisling was a piker compared to Uncle O.

Looking at this picture I can’t help but feel that President Obama, respects and admires president Bush..

Pretty soon, we’ll see them playing Golf. Papa Bush and Clinton will be in the cart behind them.

Should make a good picture…Papa Bush is probably the one who recruited Obama to begin with.

Anybody else see that chart showing that the 5
wealthiest members of the Senate are Democrats? 
Could that fact, and the ‘wealth’ factor distributed
throughout federal government workers, elected or
appointed, possibly be having an affect on the
legislation coming down the pike these days?  Surely
you jest, Felicity.

I’m convinced that in fact elected members of the
federal (or states) government work for themselves,
for their own welfare - maybe not in the beginning,
but by the end of their terms.

Not a dime’s worth of difference between the two parties. Obama is just the smiling face of the empire.  The same repressive korporatist policies. We are so over as a republic. What a friggin joke.

“Alan Grayson anyone?”
It takes no courage for Grayson to rail against Republicans, as he does. When he goes off on Obama and the Democrats, then I’ll listen.
BTW, Grayson also voted for the Great Health Insurance Giveaway.

I think the Obama vacuum is creating a strong demand for a progressive candidate that is a fighter.  An Anti-Obama if you will.  Alan Grayson anyone?

I heard something profound yesterday in the ever
Liberal haven of Sedona Az. - two trustfund hippies
outside of a coffee shop talking about this tax deal
Obie (thx for that one Ray!) made =

“We were lied to”

I couldn’t help but laugh out loud, and of course I
got the scowls for it, but I tried to explain that
it wasn’t humor at them but rather their belief that
this putz was different.
Politicians are ALL liars, I don’t pretend to know
the solution, but I know none of them can be
trusted.

It is fascinating how sleazy Obama crafts his rhetoric when trying to sell his base on his Republicanism.  He specifies the tax break to the rich as being a “temporary extention”, but when he specifies the “extention of unemployment benefits”, which lasts half as long as the “temporary” bit above no such qualifier is mentioned.  Obama is a skillful manipulator of the English language, but has used up his lie and manipulation quota for all but the most gullible.  Most everyone is on the the MFer now.

Aw com’on guys. Don’t be so hard on poor Obie. He’s just doing what he does best - compromise - wheedle and give in. He’s all about change and hope - Hope for the status quo and changing any chances the middle class and poor had of decent survival.
So really that’s what happened - nothing. Everything remains the same. A lot of blustering and filibustering but NO change. I place the blame not only on Obama, but the majority of Dems and the American people for giving the Reps the power to sabotage real progress for the majority of Americans. Time for a revolution.

No one, especially a graduate of Harvard Law, could be this inept. Thus his actions signal, not incompetence, but collusion.

From Obama’s history of colluding with the Republicans, this tax giveaway was expected as it fits exactly Obama’s modus operandi which talking the talk and walking in the opposite direction or sitting on his ass and doing nothing. Consistently he gave the Republicans everything they wanted after giving moving speeches that he opposed it.!
The Democrats as usual will “fret” and “holler” but “in the end” will go along since most of them are participants in this CON and charade. What a f%$king farce and what a disgusting pathetic charachers.!

Thats what happens when you vote in a person who has no experience of running anything, just talks the talks but can’t walk the walk. He is a pathetic, spineless coward

Obama is Joe Lieberman. “Judge a man not by the color of his skin, but rather, by the content of his character.” Martin Luther King

Obama is a piece of shit.

And Ralph Nader get proved right ...again! I said three days ago that Obama was looking for some excuse to extend the Bush tax cuts for the rich and over on Huffpo all the true believers cursed and yelled that I didn’t know what I was talking about. I’ll bet not a single one of them will show up and admit I was right and they were wrong. Obama has caved on everything so far. People confuse his giving a forceful speech with actually getting some results from that speech. There are so many things wrong with this that I hope the Dims throw him under the bus this time like he has done the People practically everytime.

Here’s the letter I just sent to my Democratic Senator John Kerry:

* * * * *

Senator Kerry, I will keep this brief.

If you vote in favor of this sell-out to the Republicans on extending the Bush tax cuts for millionaires, I will henceforth regard you as a Republican in all but name.

As a lifelong Democrat, I have never voted for a Republican, and I never will. That means that if I designate you as a Republican-in-all-but-name, I will do everything I can to prevent your re-election, including volunteering and contributing to a Democratic primary challenger, voting for a third party candidate or not voting if the only choice is between you and a Republican Party candidate.

Gutless hand-wringing no-balls Democrats simply have to be removed. Obama hasn’t got any and he’s got to go. You better get some balls now, John, or else go spend more time with Teresa in her various and sundry luxurious residences.

This was a clever Republican trap. More on my blog at http://www.jasongriffin.net/blog/2010/12/6/obama-tax-cuts-did-the-president-walk-into-a-trap.html

As I wrote my Senator Boxer:

“Do NOT compromise with the republicans, even if Obama is touting it. 

Once you give into their blackmail, they will be back for more and more, and will never be satisfied, much to the shock-and-awe of the public. 

You’re in for 6 years - stand up and be counted now when it matters most, and put a stop to this.

If one republican senator can derail entire legislation [DADT?] no reason why you can’t be the one to derail this horrible deal.”

Does anyone know why a single senator couldn’t stop this - as so many
republicans have in the past 2 years?

I can hear the whining already when Obama cannot get his base to support him in
2012 and he and his administration will blame everyone else but themselves.