PHenry,

Try studying the actual report yourself.

Good luck to you.

GYRM,

The links contained the the article include the AG report and all other relevant 1st source data to support my points, something you have failed to do besides empty rhetoric.

PHenry, - “You must be a simpleton not to be able to find this information yourself.”

-

Yes, I’m a simpleton for actually studying the CIA IG report myself while you study how a blogger dissected what someone else wrote on the subject after reading a book written by yet another. Solid research on your part.

But, that’s Okay, you know all you need to know because you lived near Washington and know people who happen to know people who worked within the CIA and DHS.

With my being such a simpleton I’m sure you’ll agree that there is no way to discuss this issue effectively between us.

Good luck.

Post Script.  According to the CIA IG U.S. intelligence agencies didn’t know who KSM was, or that the Sept. 2001 attack was his brain-child, until Abu Zubaydah was subjected to CIA interrogation for two (2) days.  KSM, according to the IG, was ultimately captured as a direct result of the CIA interrogation program.

GRYM,

“KSM was “water-boarded” 187 times.  What does that mean exactly?  There are very specific answers to the following questions”.

You must be a simpleton not to be able to find this information yourself.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/

Fortunately there is a responsible, moral segment to our society who see this evil for what it is. 

Unfortunately, the inmates are running the asylum.

GYRM,

I know alot more about this than you can possibly concieve.

The CIA and DHS are not the wise, competent agencies you give them credit for.  I have lived and worked in and around Washington DC for along time and am quite familiar with those agencies and their employees who work there.

The policy of condoning illegal torture by waterbording is simply another step toward an authoritarian regime and disregard for the rule of law.  Leaders within our own government who elect to use an illegal method in defiance of domestic and international law and fail to be prosecuted does not bode well for the average citizen who has to follow such laws. 

A loss of the personal freedoms enshrined in the U.S. constitution and bill of rights by committing torture in defiance of standing laws and conventions by falsely claiming it will possibly save lives is a far greater scare tactic than following the rule of law.

PHenry - “In the larger picture, America is a signatory with 144 other nations in the 1984 convention against torture.”

-

That is correct.

KSM was “water-boarded” 187 times.  What does that mean exactly?  There are very specific answers to the following questions.

Does it mean he was taken into a room 187 times to be water-boarded?  Does it mean water was applied 187 times?  Approximately how much water would that be?

There are very specific answers to those questions.  If you insist that what the CIA had done was torture you should be able to answer those questions, yes?

PHenry - “In the case of KSM, waterboarding was useful in obtaining a confession, it didn’t offer anything in preventing an attack.  Military or tactical intel is the most fleeting of information and is often useless within hours.”

-

Not according to the current CIA Director and Homeland Security Director.  According to each of the above you could not be more wrong on both counts. - I wish you knew a good deal more about this subject.  It would be easier to discuss.

Water-boarding will lead to the death of millions?  Just a bit a fear-mongering on your part?

GRYM,

I do not possess enough 1st source information to know if waterboarding prevented other criminal attacks on the U.S., neither do you.

I do know that persons cannot be taken off the streets and tortured on a belief that they know something.  How many people have to be tortured to garner some useful information?  Who makes that judgement?  Once we start down that road, which we have, civil liberties are weakened and the rule of law is out the window, we will all suffer as a result.

Thousands of people may die by not waterboarding now but millions may die later as we lose our constitutional protections to an ever growing authoritarian regime bent on saving us from real or imaginary threats from outside the U.S. or within its borders.

The Bill of Rights and due process are cornerstones of our democracy and at their inception were meant for everyone, not just Americans.  Now with patriot act erosions, not even Americans enjoy those guarenteed protections.

In the case of KSM, waterboarding was useful in obtaining a confession, it didn’t offer anything in preventing an attack.  Military or tactical intel is the most fleeting of information and is often useless within hours.

In the larger picture, America is a signatory with 144 other nations in the 1984 convention against torture. 

Look it up and decide for yourself if we as a nation are in violation of its intent.

PatrickHenry,

My apologies for the young man comment.

I would like to understand how much you know about the CIA technique.  KSM was “water-boarded” 187 times.  What does that mean exactly?  There are very specific answers to the following questions.

Does it mean he was taken into a room 187 times to be water-boarded?  Does it mean water was applied 187 times?  Approximately how much water would that be?

Also, do you deny that at least two major attacks were thwarted by using this technique?

GYRM,

Thanks for the young man comment but it is much like your post, far from the truth.

I served 2 tours in the Marines in the mid 70’s to early 80’s and as one of my alternate duties was appointed as the SERE officer for my command. 

I have visited camp Peary and reviewed the program they have there.

Waterboarding was seldom used during my 8 years as it was deemed illegal and only those who volunteered as a learning example could be used.

There are more effective battlefield contingent methods to garner timely intel than waterboarding.

The jury is out on the complicity of KSM and his band of box cutting terrorists of 9/11 as the official version of the events is weak and unsupported by facts or evidence.  As time progresses new evidence is refuting the governments official story.

Waterboarding KSM 187 times for him to confess hardly makes your case.

Go back to your kool aid stand.

PHenry - “The only place I know they do it is in SERE school for combat pilots and various special warfare operators.”

_

I’m sorry.  You must be a young man.  While you’re right that that is the case today, time was almost all recruits were subjected to a form of, what is commonly referred to as, water-boarding.

I hope you and others take the time to learn for yourselves that what you may see described on Britannica is not what was taking place within the CIA interrogation program.  The CIA water-boarding technique is designed to frighten.  Not harm.

PatrickHenry,

Yes, Atty General Holder does have a say on how to define torture.  You may recall that he plainly opined that water-boarding was not only not torture but, a needed war tool under the previous administration.  He later went on to become Atty. General for a president who campaigned on the issue of water-boarding being torture.  It was criminal, Obama said.

Then not long into office, after killing the CIA interrogation program - opting in stead for predator attack summary executions around the globe-, Presidential spokesman, Robert Gibbs, stated that all interrogation techniques, including water-boarding, could not be ruled out in emergencies. - Not unlike 9/11.

Like it or not the Obama administration has plainly seen for themselves why water-boarding had been employed in these particular three cases.  It worked.  According the current CIA Director and Obama’s anti-terror adviser the technique was hugely successful in disrupting at least two large scale attacks and led to the capture of several high value targets.  In real effect the program saved many lives at the cost of scaring the hell out of three individuals bent on mass murder.

-

Which Americans will you point to and tell them their children can die for the “just cause” of keeping Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s crap in his bowls?

Reportedly KSM was scared, made to feel very uncomfortable, sleep deprived, his will to resist breached, after killing over 3000 people and accomplishing what had not been accomplished since 1812.

Welcome to the real world where real people are trying to kill you or those you have sworn to protect.  You can help by knowing more about the CIA program for yourself.

GRYM,

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1470200/waterboarding

Waterboarding is torture irregardless of what the CIA says it is.  AG Holder says it is and his word counts.

I’d like to see the report where hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops have participated in waterboarding.  The only place I know they do it is in SERE school for combat pilots and various special warfare operators.

I find your post one of the most apologetic pieces of crap for obvious criminality I have read in a while.

Well, thank heavens they’ve learned from Nixon’s mistake: never keep the tapes boys. Never keep the tapes.

Truthdig should stop this string before water-boarding becomes downright fun!  Not to say justified. Not to say justifiable.  Not to say necessary.  Not to say inevitable. Not to say humane.

Not to say that Jesus of Nazareth was a terrorist and Pilate was justified in crucifying enemies of the Roman State because it saved lives, allowed more Romans to build settlements in and around Jerusalem and guaranteed the security of the Middle East at that time.

point taken, berniem

Our’s may be a nation of laws but bad laws make for a lawless state. Since when is destruction of evidence not illegal? Answer: When those in control can manipulate and interpret the governing law at their whim! Hitler’s Germany was also a nation of laws where it was a capital offense to be a Jew! When the bumbler Ford pardoned Nixon and was not himself impeached, the die was cast for the destruction of equal justice and respect for the law and government. What maintains our current system of governance is not respect but corruption and stupidity on the part of the electorate! It won’t be too much longer before the elements of universal fear and coercion are the norm. Patriot Act anyone?

What made the United States great was the fact we followed rule of law. Geneva Convention, habeas corpus, etc.
Now here we are arguing about what is torture.
Hitchens could be a masochist for all I know, I didn’t hear about him having water poured up his nose while upside down.
I heard Man cow say it was torture.
If we throw rule of law out the window we throw our country out the window.

Reportedly hundreds of thousands of U.S. soldiers have been water-boarded in the course of their training.  I was water-boarded.  Not tortured.

Water-boarding, as practiced by the CIA, does not meet the legal definition of torture (look it up).

Reportedly water-boarding, as practiced by the CIA, saved numerous lives and prevented at least two large-scale attacks inside the United States.

While a frightening experience there is no evidence that the three individuals who had been water-boarded were injured in any way.

Reportedly, after Abu Zubaydah was water-boarded, he told his interrogators that they needed to do that to “all the Bothers” in order to release them from their “obligation” to resist interrogation.

Christopher Hitchens was water-boarded (look it up).  He described the ordeal in some detail.  He then asked to be water-boarded a second time.

Nobody requests to be “tortured” a second time.

Torture as a policy was first enacted by the Bush administration.

correction:  youtube, not facebook

steelerfan, stick to football.

No other presidents have authorized torture.
Is that tea rotting your brain?
We go to war AGANST nations for less.
Bush ignored warnings then blamed US for having to much freedom.
He cured that second problem, huh.

I ain’t defending obama. He’s worse. 
Now we are killing americans for posting on facebook.

It’s a good thing the military don’t know that the CIA is GAY

Wow, what a shocker! Those guilty of crimes but well
connected with the power brokers escape even the
charade of trial and blind justice. Who could of seen
that one coming? Perhaps John Yoo, Alberto Gonzales,
John Ashcroft, Hank Paulsen, Gen. Geoffrey Miller and
any and all Wall Street financiers….

No wonder there is a culture of lawlessness in America.

If the Government is free to violate laws then we the people are not compelled to follow any laws by that Government.

Catch me if you can.

Step One:  Torture prisoners, calling it extra- 
        ordinary rendition.”
Step Two:  Film torturing
Step Thres: Hide evidence.
Step Four: Destroy evidence.
Step Five: Do not prosecute torturers because of lack
        of substantial evidence.
Step Six:  Destroy national honor, pride, honesty,
        rule of law, democratic values, self-        respect and human sympathy.
Step Seven: Self-destruct.
Step Eight: Have a nice day.