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Ear to the Ground

NATO Sets 2014 Afghan Deadline

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Posted on Nov 20, 2010
news.bbc.co.uk

NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen speaks in Lisbon, Portugal,  where he signed a long-term security partnership with Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai.

NATO’s 28 member states have unanimously backed a strategy to shift leadership of the near decade-long Afghanistan war to local forces by the end of 2014. But, lest the Taliban think they can wait it out, the NATO chief declared that the alliance’s commitment is open-ended. —JCL

The BBC:

Leaders of Nato’s 28 states have backed a strategy to transfer leadership for the fight against the Taliban to Afghan forces by the end of 2014.

Afghanistan President Hamid Karzai was in Lisbon, where he signed a long-term security partnership with Nato.

Nato’s secretary general said the Taliban would not be allowed simply to wait for foreign forces to leave, saying Nato would remain committed.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 24, 2010 at 11:20 am Link to this comment

radson, - “you may believe in perpetual warfare with this so called war on terror within a hundred nations.  I believe that peace may yet be achieved…”

-

Perpetual warfare?

How do you propose peace will be achieved with Aman Zawahiri?

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By radson, November 23, 2010 at 11:39 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

WE may be worlds apart ,but we still share the same world ,you may believe in perpetual warfare with this so called war on terror within a hundred nations .I believe that peace may yet be achieved.Tnx anyhow for
the exchange of opinions .

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 23, 2010 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

radson,

As I said, we are worlds apart in how we view the globe.

I do suggest that anyone interested in knowing how Afghans feel about NATO, should find ways to do precisely that.  It’s not that difficult and too important as a guessing game.  I gave but one suggestion.  I do stress listening to Afghan woman in particular.  I would never suggest it at the exclusion of any other Afghan.

We should keep this in context.

There is no wide-spread insurgency across the nation of 25 million in Afghanistan.  Missing that context, or changing it in any way, changes the perception.

I believe what’s happening in Afghanistan/Pakistan is part of a global war with battles being fought in over 100 nations.  Most of the 100 are now fighting the same self-proclaimed enemy which Iran and others continue to openly support.

In other words Afghanistan is not about Western hegemony.  And the bulk of the globe owes the Afghan people a debt almost beyond repaying.

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By radson, November 23, 2010 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

First of all I have nothing against Women’s Rights anywhere in the world ,secondly what I was implying was that a good proportion of Afghan citizens are illiterate or close to it ,by singling out Diaspora Afghan
women in the west does not constitute the majority.Another point that I would like to add ;is that the fighting vehicles ‘Nato’ in Afghanistan use signs to warn the population -using symbols-along with text
to forewarn them .

” There is no widespread insurgency against NATO in Afghanistan.  It simply does not exist.”


My goodness Grym are you sure about that statement .Maybe that’s why the US has recently decided to deploy Abrams tanks and during the Lisboa Summit encouraged the Nato members to stick it out
to 2014 and perhaps beyond.


“Iran has indeed attacked several near and far regional nations.  The fact that Iran does not attack with a large military presence is the reason you and others are not aware of it.  Iran almost constantly attacks the interests of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Israel, Britain, Poland, France, Germany, the U.S. and several others.”

Wow Grym ;I could only assume that you have trouble interpretating what I had written ,it boggles my mind where you came up with this ,I didn’t realize that Iran has Attacked as many countries as you claim raspberryoland ,France ,Germany ,it sounds like an invasion of Europe.

 

 

“Are you implying you would rather see a more robust Iranian influence in Afghanistan over the U.S. and NATO? “

 

That’s not at all what I was implying ,the thought of supplanting the US or Nato with Iran is not realistic .Yet the question in itself has some merit ;Hamid Karzai is perhaps weighing his options and the potential

of another war on Afghanistan’s western border would not be encouraging,therefore if Iran would play even a minor role in helping to end the war and defusing the tension in the Middle East it would be beneficial

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 23, 2010 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

Radson, - “The reference of Afghan female students living in the West ,desiring the continued presence of Nato is but a small minority in comparison to the overall Afghan population.”

The problem comes in the fact that that’s not a correct statement.  The majority, most particularly the female population, feels a great deal safer and a great deal more empowered by NATO’s presence.  Very few Afghans wish a return of the Taliban government or the waring tribal chaos of the past. - There is no widespread insurgency against NATO in Afghanistan.  It simply does not exist.

Afghanistan has historically been a tribal country with a tribal form of governance ,it was not created after the defeat of the Soviet forces as you have stated.

I didn’t write that the tribal system in Afghanistan was created after the Soviet withdrawal.  If you revisit my statements you’ll see that.

-

Iran has indeed attacked several near and far regional nations.  The fact that Iran does not attack with a large military presence is the reason you and others are not aware of it.  Iran almost constantly attacks the interests of Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Israel, Britain, Poland, France, Germany, the U.S. and several others.

Are you implying you would rather see a more robust Iranian influence in Afghanistan over the U.S. and NATO?

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By radson, November 23, 2010 at 10:33 am Link to this comment

GRYM

Your passion for the Afghan people to eventually live in peace after all that they have been through is commendable.The reference of Afghan female students living in the West ,desiring the continued presence
of Nato is but a small minority in comparison to the overall Afghan population ,which is lacking basic education and literacy.Mind you the education in Afghanistan is improving and Greg Mortenson can claim
credit in that regard.The troubled spots in Afghanistan are mostly located along the Durand Line ,which was created by the British before the State of Pakistan was unveiled in 1948.The problem with this Line
is that it separates the Pashtuns historical home,hence the porous border region and so called safe havens ,which has lead to this drone war.As far as a vacuum being created in the event that Nato down-sizes
or leaves and the void filled by the countries that you have mentioned is premature.First of all Iran has been Afghanistan’s neighbor for centuries and they have lived in peace secondly when was the last time that
Iran actually attacked a sovereign country as the ‘aggressor ’ ,during the Iraq Iran war the Iraqi’s were the aggressors.Just today :the 23 rd nov. Hamid Karzai has stated during a press conference that he is
seeking to ‘boost relations with Iran ,Russia,China and Pakistan’.Finally Afghanistan has historically been a tribal country with a tribal form of governance ,it was not created after the defeat of the Soviet forces as
you have stated .The Pastuns and therefore the Taliban are going to play a role in this quest for peace in Afghanistan ,if not , the Durand line will continue to be a hornet’s nest and the conflict will keep spilling
over into Pakistan.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 23, 2010 at 12:38 am Link to this comment

Radson, - “military tactics,which in essence
promote a stiffer resistance.”

-

O.K.  But remember, you asked wink

There is no widespread resistance of NATO amongst the Afghan population.  On the other hand there is a viable and vocal resistance to the return of anything which resembles the former Taliban government. - I would urge everyone to travel to the nearest university and ask an Afghan student how they and their families back home feel about the United States.  I would strongly urge anyone to seek out female Afghans for their opinions.  My experience tells me they will likely beg to have NATO remain.

I see no “assimilation”.  I do not see NATO as an ominous presence.  Nor do I see as ominous the presence of the remaining 100 plus nations performing everything from building, not only schools, but a university structure for millions of females, Canada and Denmark working to advise Afghans on the structures of an independent judiciary, to the Japanese teaching farmers to cultivate alternative crops as a way to transition the economy away from poppy production, to the roads being built which will bring far reaching regions of Afghanistan into global markets for Afghan wares.

No bombs, no blood, no story.

Unfortunately world media seems uninterested in the multiples of dozens of small hydrogen engines being dispersed to the tiniest of hamlets and provinces in remote areas of Afghanistan.  Engines which produce as a byproduct clean potable water.  Electric pumps means access to deeper fresh water-tables. - Fresh water, sanitation and refrigeration (medication storage) will save tens of thousands of young lives annually.  More lives than was lost in fighting in 2008 and 2009. - The 2008-09 deaths from fighting is minuscule to the numbers killed nationally while five waring fiefdoms tore across the nation after the pullout of Soviet Union.

- Yes, radio and satellite services to support a vibrant, open, media.

-


Currently there are over 100 nations attempting to work in concert to feed, educate, build and otherwise attempt to aid Afghanistan.  Remove NATO and all that will dissipate.  And history tells us that the resulting vacuum will quickly be filled by other, less desirable, influences. In place of Poland, Denmark, Canada, Germany and Turkey it would likely be Iran, Russia, Pakistan, China, Tajikistan and Afghan/Pakistan Taliban.

If you want my passionate and unshakable opinion; after decades of being on the front lines as a pawn of the Cold War, the world, not just the West, owes the Afghan people a debt almost beyond repaying.  I will feel nothing but sorrow and shame if the United States, along with much of the of rest of the world, turns it’s back on Afghanistan once again.

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By radson, November 22, 2010 at 10:18 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

Natos’ purpose was more explicate during the Cold War ,but since the collapse of the former Soviet Union times have changed .To require the US and Nato to remain as long as they have and potentially beyond
2014 sounds like an exercise in Assimilation .Was there actually an official declaration of war against Afghanistan ,besides the war on Terror and have the other Nato members acknowledged it?I do concur that
economic assistance would be beneficial to the Afghan citizens ,but would not a greater assistance in that regard be a logical choice to advancing the agenda instead of the military tactics,which in essence
promote a stiffer resistance.The media aspect would require a means of the locals of receiving the information through wireless means ,are you suggesting that the populace be issued radios .

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 22, 2010 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment

radson, - “I just thought that perhaps you had a more in-depth opinion on the subject matter”

-

Which subject?  NATO itself?  Or the NATO/Afghanistan deadline?

I have no real problems with any one individual NATO Member Nations and have little problem with NATO’s charter.

I remain thankful for Member Nation’s tough but vital contributions in Afghanistan.  My hope lays in Afghanistan readying itself to assume it’s own security within a Representative form of government with an independent Judiciary and a robust media. - The best engines proven to lift millions of out abject poverty.

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By radson, November 22, 2010 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

GRYM
Fair enough ,I just thought that perhaps you had a more in-depth opinion on the subject matter .

cheers

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 22, 2010 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment

radson,

I truly had no intentions of being cocky.  I hope you won’t assume I’m here to be abusive or argumentative.  We see far too much of that all over the blogosphere.

I listened to what you had to say.

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By radson, November 22, 2010 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

Tnx for your short and cocky reply ,but I will add another thing .The US doesn’t move at a Patton pace ,it moves moves at a Monty set piece battle pace :just for a refresher ,how long was it between the
first Iraq war and the second.

LOL Knight to you

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 21, 2010 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

LOL…Knight.

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 21, 2010 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

radson,

We are worlds apart in how we view the globe.

While I do not believe the United States is the world’s “Night in Shinning Armour”, I also do not see the United States as the cause of the world’s problems.  I have no desire to strip the U.S. of it’s lead role about the globe.  The realistic alternatives would be frightening.

The U.S. is not the problem.  The problems of the world are that it’s populated by humans.

Good luck to you.

Report this

By radson, November 21, 2010 at 4:49 pm Link to this comment

GRYM

Russia would be a logical choice because the country is endowed with a lot of natural resources ,of which oil and natural gas are of prime importance to maintain the European economy.The question as to why
the EU has turned down Russia in the past is most likely attributable to American influence and hegemony ,partly based on the primacy of the US currency in the Global Market especially with regards to the
flow of fossil fuels.The Lisbon conference is rather a contradiction in US foreign policy when one considers the invitation granted to the Russians and the overtures of possible membership ,when the Georgian and
missile defense shield are but into perspective along with the Iranian question.I would dare to suspect that the underlying invitation is to weaken Russia by dandling the bait of potential membership but with
certain caveats;namely the inclusion of Georgia and the Ukraine into Nato.The Georgian membership would give the US better control and access to the Caspian basin and also a FOB in the event that a conflict with Iran would arise,and should Turkey not accept such an endeavor of using its land to attack Iran.The Caspian Sea would be used as the avenue of approach in a potential attack against the Islamic Republic,because the borders of the Caspian Sea are as yet not decided and recognized internationally.Logically one could easily say that an attack could be mounted from bases in Iraq and Afghanistan and that will probably become the case,but that would involve less parties in the undertaking and lesson the spread of American Democracy.The Ukrainian question is even more critical to Russia’s security and Poland’s as
well ,in Poland’s case it would push the front-line so to speak onto Ukrainian soil if there was a war or conflict and in essence it would be on Moscow’s doorstep.China on the other hand is becoming America’s
bête noir and the latest visit to Asia by President Obama definitely has the Chinese worried ,the US proposition that India become a full member in the UN Security council is actually a dangerous invitation if
indeed it comes to pass for the following reasons .First of all if Russia does become a member of Nato ,then they will have to support US Policy and secondly if India becomes a full fledged member ,then due
to gratitude towards the prestige ,they will vote in favor of US policy .That will leave China as the only Country opposing American hegemonic designs ,they will be out voted five to one and the Americans can
claim an overwhelming Democratic process.

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Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 21, 2010 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

radson,

I’m unclear why Russia would be a logical choice to join the EDF after the bulk of the EDF have already, three times, opposed Russia’s inclusion.

And what of China?

Report this

By radson, November 21, 2010 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

GRYM
Actually Nato could be replaced with an EDF a European Defence Force and Russia would be a logical
member.Now as far as filling the voids or vacuums go ,that is precisely why the SCO was created ,because of Nato’s expansion after the cold war.

Report this
Go Right Young Man's avatar

By Go Right Young Man, November 21, 2010 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

FRTothus, - “It’s time to end NATO.”

-

Ending NATO would inevitably create a vacuum.  Is it time to end SCO as well?  Which nations will step in and take the place of NATO?

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By wanked, November 20, 2010 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I would like to know how they determined this date…by how many innocents will have died, by how much money was made…How? Since this (undeclaired)war seems pointless,and security’s fading, when is enough enough?

Report this

By FRTothus, November 20, 2010 at 6:40 pm Link to this comment

It’s time to end NATO.  It has long since outlived
its dubious purposes as a screen for US-led
aggressive capitalist expansion via arms sales and
colonialist wars of (US) choice (as has the UN). We
need to continue to take the legs out from under the
War Machine, under whatever flag.

“There isn’t a trick in the racketeering bag that the
military gang is blind to. It has its ‘finger-men’ to
point out enemies, its ‘muscle-men’ to destroy
enemies, its ‘brain men’ to plan war preparations and
a ‘Big Boss’ Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man, to adopt such
a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent
thirty-three years and four months in active military
service as a member of this country’s most agile
military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all
commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major
General. And during that period, I spent most of my
time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business,
for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was
a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time.
Now I am sure of it.
I helped make Honduras ‘right’ for American fruit
companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially
Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I
helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the
National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I
helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American
republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record
of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua
for the international banking house of Brown Brothers
in 1909-1912. I brought light to the Dominican
Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In
China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went
its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back
room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I
feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints.
The best he could do was to operate his racket in
three districts. I operated on three continents.”
(Major General Smedley Butler, 1933 speech)

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