#67693 by DS Ellis on 5/02 at 2:10 pm
(5 comments total)

“. . . I don’t dispute anything you say.  However, . . .  Evidence for impeachment has been public and available for years now.”

“Rules of evidence”—and pleading—are refined over centuries.  If one files a case in court _and neglects to EXPRESSLY plead either a claim_—if plaintiff—_or a defense_—if defendant—then that failure is treated as a waiver of that claim or defense. 

Impeachment must originate with the ultimate check on gov’t: We the people.  Congress is listening—is all ears.  But impeachment, a monumental, history-changing act under any circumstances, is in the present circumstances—the magnitude of multi-betrayals—is all the more monumental.  Congress may even have to enforce the law beyond mere subpoenas and “gentlemanly” statement of law alone.

And, though the urgency be there, Congress cannot initiate legitimate impeachment without regard for the will of We the people.  (The abuse of power that was the “impeachment” of Clinton, having happened so recently, puts people off that which is correctly perceived as a political earthquake.) Impeachment cannot be, or be seen as being, partisan.  It MUST originate with We the people.

Congress knows the need.  But there is no roadmap—in place is the sign, “Proceed with caution”.  And they are right to do so.  But they are without question aware of the laws, the violations of the laws, the peril in which we find ourselves.  But they need the guidance of We the people in their effort to “find” or make a map of and through the unprecedented territory.

“Even if you discount the war (reasons for going, . . . etc.), there’s suppression of scientific knowledge, cronyism, politicizing the Justice Department, Guantanamo, numerous corruption (or at least, conflict of interest) scandals, etc.”

Agreed, as close to absolutely as an imperfect human can do that.

“Do you honestly believe the Republicans would have waited this long if a Democratic president acted this way?”

No, I do not: we saw the abuse of power based upon a fraud that was the Clinton impeachment.  That cautions.  The alternative is to establish, with unmistakable hard evidence, that—yes—these crimes were committed, as defined in and prohibited not by partisanship but by existing non-partisan law.

“. . . .  Congress has MORE than enough documentation and video evidence to justify impeachment procedings.”

It must be independently verified by the investigative/enforcement body.

“While I admire your support of the rule of law, I question the idea that justice HAS to be a slow process.”

Democratic due process is premised upon presumption of innocence, involves public testimony, under oath, by those who go to various lengths to avoid that fundamental element of the process.  It takes time, then, to substantiate/demonstrate not only why they must do so, but also that they must.

“Why has no one stepped up?”

Kucinich has.  Two additional representatives have signed on with him.  Murtha has stepped up.  Pelosi is taking “poll” calls on the issue.

“What are they afraid of?”

Being smeared, now and in future, for having acted not on evidence and law, but on partisanship.  Larger than that, of error.

“It’s a good possibility . . . the Dems are . . .  hoping the president comes around and becomes more cooperative.”

I think they realize that Bushit may come around, but that it isn’t likely.  So as they give him that opportunity, they gather evidence on not only his refusal to do so, but the violations which underlie his claims for doing so.

“Sometimes, the right thing is hard to do, which is why so few people do it.”

Or are cautious in their doing the right thing, knowing there are hidden landmines along the way.

JNagarya, I don’t dispute anything you say.  However, I get the sincere feeling that the Dems are dragging their feet for reasons that aren’t yet clear.  Evidence for impeachment has been public and available for years now.  Even if you discount the war (reasons for going, conduct during, etc.), there’s suppression of scientific knowledge, cronyism, politicizing the Justice Department, Guantanamo, numerous corruption (or at least, conflict of interest) scandals, etc.

Do you honestly believe the Republicans would have waited this long if a Democratic president acted this way?  Of course not.  We know that for a fact. Hell, they impeached the last one for his personal sex life (or used that as an excuse, anyway).  Congress has MORE than enough documentation and video evidence to justify impeachment procedings.  While I admire your support of the rule of law, I question the idea that justice HAS to be a slow process (and no, I’m not talking about lynchings, stump hangings, etc). 

The evidence and justification for impeachment exists and has for a long time now.  Why has no one stepped up?  What are they afraid of?  That super organized 25% of America that stands behind the president?  Losing corporate support?  Looking like petty finger pointers before a presidential election?

It’s a good possibility I’m wrong about all of this and the Dems are going through the steps of a strategy:  doing A, B, and C before defaulting to D and hoping the president comes around and becomes more cooperative.  If that’s the case, I’m not filled with a lot of confidence.  Mr. Bush has not shown the slightest hint that he is willing to concede on any subject despite his frequent assurances that he is ready to “work with a bipartisan Congress”. 

I guess all this rambling doesn’t prove a point, except to demonstrate how complex this situation has become.  I just wish someone would tackle it head on and hold those responsible for their numerous offenses without regard to their own political career.  Sometimes, the right thing is hard to do, which is why so few people do it.

#67554 by Steve Hammons on 5/01 at 8:42 pm
(58 comments total)

“Murtha seems to genuinely care about our troops and their families. If only more in Congress and the Bush administration felt this way.”

Murtha is probably the most conservative democrat in Congress.  He therefore appeals to genuine conservatives—to whom we need appeal.

And I’ll bet you hate “pork-barreling”.  Murtha has been a pork-barreler for the military from day one of his representation in Congress—he is in charge of appropriations—funding, also known as MONEY—for/to the military.  At the same time, he speaks for the military where the military can’t legally speak for itself.

Got that?

He has been in Congress for at least 30 years.  His introduction of the word (call him “point man” in that regard) impeachment into the public political dialogue was not careless.  Or, obviously, opposed thereto.

Now pay serious attention to every word Murtha says: he speaks for the military.  And for the rule of law.  He is a veteran, and has called Cheney out as being a chickenhawk who got five deferments from military service because he had “other priorities”.  He was attacked by the chickenhawks—but is still standing.

And now bringing impeachment into the equation. 

Is it intended to warn Bushit concerning vetoing the supplemental?  Yes.  But not only.  Impeahment is inevitable, regardless Bushit’s back-of-the-mind notions of how to _prevent_ that movement in Congress.  Bushit cannot win this argument; and, in fact, is going to lose it.

UNDER OATH or UNDER ARREST.

“Rendition” to the Hague upcoming.

Murtha seems to genuinely care about our troops and their families. If only more in Congress and the Bush administration felt this way. Food for thought at:

“U.S. troops in Iraq taking drugs to cope with stress, trauma”

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle. asp?articleID=11079

- - -

“American troops are cracking under horrors, deception and lies of Iraq war”

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle. asp?articleID=10640

#67410 by Gerry Long on 5/01 at 5:26 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Is the Democratic controlled congress afraid to impeach because the corporate bastards who put Bush in office, and who “buy” both democrats and republicans in congress have told them not to.”

It isn’t “fear”.  It’s _rule of law_.  How about you, and all the others, who accuse Bush, et al., of violating the law, and the Democrats of “fear,” etc., actually learning something about law, and due process, so you don’t come off sounding exactly like Bush, et al.: “Wanted Dead--No Trial Necessary”?

We don’t lynch lynchers for having committed the crime of lynching.

#67444 by DS Ellis on 5/01 at 12:57 pm
(3 comments total)

“Not that it matters.  The Dems are obviously going to continue to drag their feet, pass legislation without any teeth and let the current administration get away with their criminal acts.  Impeachment is a dirty, dirty business that has been known to squander resources and waste time.  But in this case, where crimes have been committed, lies have been told and evidence is to be had, it’s justified.”

Put aside your short-sighted blinders; pay close attention to Congress—how it functions—and you might actually learn something.

About, as example, due process of law—which, like it or not, takes time.

Or do you want Pelosi accused of self-promotion by being for impeachment, out of the box, without concern with such “technicalities” as _EVIDENCE_?

The Democrats are building the case—which, unlike Bushit’s frivolous case against Saddam, must and will be based on actual evidence.

We don’t lynch lynchers for having committed the crime of lynching.

#67401 by 911truthdotorg on 5/01 at 4:29 am
(35 comments total)

There are the thoughtful.  And there are the thoughtless ideologues who spew crap.  You are in the latter category --

“Two days after the Nov election, I changed my party from life long Democrat to Independent after I heard the cowards Pelosi and Dean say “impeachment is off the table”. How dare they???!!!  I will never vote Democratic again.”

That is utterly dumb.  Ever hear of “conflict of interest”—it’s an ethical concept.  In this situation: one doesn’t appoint oneself to office from which one will gain politically or otherwise.

Or do you want it said that Pelosi, knowing she would become president, is lusting after the job, therefore “into” impeachment for that reason alone?

“It didn’t even take 24 hours for them to forget that they work for US and not the reverse.”

They haven’t forgot.  Rather, you have forgot—or more likely never learned—that you are not the sole constitutent of Congress.  And never learned that the way to deal with lawlessness is not by throwing the rule of law out the window-- thus joining the lawless in their lawlessness—but by acting in accordance with, and enforcing, the law against the lawlessness.

We don’t lynch the lyncher for having committed the crime of lynching.

“The Democrats will cave and do whatever the murderer-in-chief wants to do.”

No, they will not—as Murtha’s comments make overwhelmingly obvious.  His bringing of the word impeachment into the public dialogue is first a trial baloon, an informal poll”; and second, an indication of backbone and determination.  Congress well recognizes that impeachment is inevitable—it is the only means by which to restore the rule of law—and it must be done in accordance with due process, deliberation, rule of law—against a gang which will not, uneder any other circumstances, do that which th law mandates, do anything other than continue their deragned, anti-American course.

“The Democrats are Republicans-Lite. The status quo will continue. We are eternally screwed.”

You, sir, are an ass.

#67490 by oregoncharles on 5/01 at 4:31 pm
(2 comments total)

“Murtha’s comment is called a trial balloon. (Note that it was a staffer who took it back, not Murtha himself.) The leadership wants to know what response it gets.  Barraging him with demands to go through with it would be appropriate.”

Correct. 

“However, I agree with #67422 by THOMAS BILLIS; the Democrats do not want to remove the stinking Bush albatross from the Republicans’ necks, and they don’t care how many people die or how much damage is done to the country in the meantime.”

Bullshit.  Impeachment cannot be partisan; it must be based upon hard evideince.  One gets the hard evidence by means of investigation, which, done properly, take time.

However, as noted, Congress is beginning to float trial baloons for that which they well know is inevitable.

“So another commenter is right: we need a real progressive party, if only to keep the Dems honest.  There is one, of course:  the Greens.  Pundits may not take us seriously, but the Democrats do:  they consistently blame us for their own failures.  They’re actually afraid of competition on the Left.  The votes are there, but the money isn’t.  Where would they get their “beer money?””

Do some research on this question: How many third party candidacies have been successful?  (The answer: Get your head out of dreamland and contribute _responsibly_.)

Always, of course, keep in mind this question: Who put the “candid” in “candidate”?

I do agree with Congressman Murtha. Just let Bush &
Cheney run their business as usual as Deborah Palfrey, the alleged D.C. Madam so that we could see much more interesting plays.

I admire Jack Murtha as being one of the very few with the courage to speak his convictions.....But I disagree with him on this issue and believe now is precisely the time to begin the removal of both Cheny and Bush. Five years ago wouldv’e been better when we shouldv’e been able to determine from all the info. in the public domain already that they had stole the election in ‘2000...Look at the damage they have done since. The longer they remain the further down the hole we swirl...Why wait any longer. Get these criminals out as soon as possible. There is absolutely nothing more urgent.

Murtha’s comment is called a trial balloon. (Note that it was a staffer who took it back, not Murtha himself.) The leadership wants to know what response it gets.  Barraging him with demands to go through with it would be appropriate. 

However, I agree with #67422 by THOMAS BILLIS; the Democrats do not want to remove the stinking Bush albatross from the Republicans’ necks, and they don’t care how many people die or how much damage is done to the country in the meantime.

So another commenter is right: we need a real progressive party, if only to keep the Dems honest.  There is one, of course:  the Greens.  Pundits may not take us seriously, but the Democrats do:  they consistently blame us for their own failures.  They’re actually afraid of competition on the Left.  The votes are there, but the money isn’t.  Where would they get their “beer money?”

And yes, we need all the help we can get.  Yours.

I hate to be a nit-picker, but ‘power of the purpose’ sounds like something our current Commander-in-Chief would invoke to justify some new form of torture.  I heard Jack Murtha’s clip on NPR.  What he actually said was, “power of the PURSE,” not ‘purpose’.

Not that it matters.  The Dems are obviously going to continue to drag their feet, pass legislation without any teeth and let the current administration get away with their criminal acts.  Impeachment is a dirty, dirty business that has been known to squander resources and waste time.  But in this case, where crimes have been committed, lies have been told and evidence is to be had, it’s justified.

Two days after the Nov election, I changed my party from life long Democrat to Independent after I heard the cowards Pelosi and Dean say “impeachment is off the table”. How dare they???!!!  I will never vote Democratic again.

It didn’t even take 24 hours for them to forget that they work for US and not the reverse.

The Democrats will cave and do whatever the murderer-in-chief wants to do.

The Democrats are Republicans-Lite. The status quo will continue. We are eternally screwed.

Demand a new, true 9/11 investigation...the lie that is the “official” story is their house of cards that needs to come crashing down like the WTC.

9/11 is THE issue.

Google video: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition

#67363 by Robert Hutwohl on 4/30 at 6:51 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes, let’s continue to allow Bush the Butcher to place thousands of innocent people on his chopping block! Keep up the good work Congress. I will forever remember your timidity.

Congress is not being timid.  It is being deliberate, and deliberative.  What Congress must do is exactly that it is doing: investigate, and lay out, publicy, the evidence, found.  If that warrants impeachment—and it does—the ultimate check on gov’t, We the people, will demand it, and Congress will does as We the people demand.

Stop being a jerk against actual, genuine justice.  Leave the anti-democratic lynching to Bushit, et al.

#67368 by DennisD on 4/30 at 7:01 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

“But he doesn’t believe that impeachment is appropriate at this time.”
Just when then? Are our Congressional lemmings waiting for Bu$hChen to finish the back nine to ask them to turn in their golf cart? What a pathetic group of pompous assholes. Vote third party and flush the District of Corruption once and for all.”
You have much to learn about politics—and due process.  Start with learning patience, and “mulling”—thoughtfulness.

What Murtha has done is introduce—and objectively endorse—the legitimacy of impeachment to public discussion.

The little I heard directly from him in interview was that he receives, every day, lots of phone calls/emails calling for impeachment.  Congress is paying attention, and knows what We the people want.  Leahy in the Senate has already said that the Democrats are there to do as the voters want.  And, “We have to let the investigations play out”—due process, and that it be seen and known to be nonpartisan, requires that it be based on the evidence, as it is developed by investigation.

Learn to read between the lines.

Murtha is also influential with both conservatives, and the military.

Impeachment is appropriate because it’s deserved.

Justice isn’t served only when it’s easy to catch the “bad guys” It needs to be served in all situations - or future politicians are going to see that they have a green light to do just what bush as done - and maybe worse.

For more on this, read “Impeachment is not about Getting Revenge”

http://www.populistamerica.com/impeachment_is_not_abou t_getting_revenge