RE: There are so many lies that it is impossible to believe anything the
media , military, FBI or CIA says… Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we
practice to deceive.

agreed - and to reiterate: no need to speculate, we have it from the source…

2 things to never forget:

1. “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus Angelton -
Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)

2. “The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major
media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

Go Right Young Man, April 9 at 3:55 am,

Some kind of ruse report, maybe.  Waterboarding
is pouring water on your face.  If water was
poured on his face 183 times, he was waterboarded 183 times.

But how do you explain fearnotruth’s April 8 at
10:35 pm post in regard to the Asia Times that
says that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is
confirmed DEAD, killed in a frenzied police
raid shootout at his apartment in Karachi
September 11, 2002?

What name does the person have that was
waterboarded 183 times in your paperwork? 

Also, the FBI has Khalid Shaikh Mohammed’s wife
and child in custody and apparently are torturing
them, as it couldn’t have been KSM,  if he was
DEAD way back in 2002.

There’s something wrong with both these
pictures.  Can you explain?  Oh what a tangled
web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

PHenry, - “183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.

-

Look People, why not read the entire report PHenry refers to along with the explanation of the water-boarding technique for yourselves.  All one needs to know about this is there if we simply take an hour out of our day.

Water was applied to the face of Khalid Mohammed 183 times during five water-boarding sessions in the month of March 2003. - Good Lord!  The man was not water-boarded 183 times.

Read these reports yourselves.  NOT Wiki, any “news source” or some idiot blog entry.  After that, every time you come across someone who repeats the idiocy that the man was water-boarding 183 times, you can be damn certain that person is clueless on this issue.  100%.

GRYM

There is no evidence that Khalid Mohammed was water-boarded 183 times.  He was likely water-boarded five times in roughly five weeks.

There is no need for anyone to exaggerate in order to make a point

From daily KOS

“On page 37 of the OLC memo, in a passage discussing the differences between SERE techniques and the torture used with detainees, the memo explains the CIA used the waterboard “at least 83 times during August 2002” in the interrogation of Zubaydah. IG Report at 90, and 183 times during March 2003 in the interrogation of KSM, see id. at 91.

Note, the information comes from the CIA IG report which, in the case of Abu Zubaydah, is based on having viewed the torture tapes as well as other materials. So this is presumably a number that was once backed up by video evidence.”

One time was enough to be guilty of torture.

fearnotruth, April 8 at 10:35 pm,

And the plot thickens. So the real Khalid Shaikh Mohammed is
dead, then why is it necessary for all the lies and theater?  What
is wrong with truth to the American people?  This patsy is then
innocent, so did they water board the patsy 183 times, and if they
kill the patsy, it will be murder and kidnapping Khalid Shaikh
Mohammed wife and child and torturing them is unacceptable, as
is trying an unnamed patsy as if he is Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
unacceptable.

There are so many lies that it is impossible to believe anything the
media , military, FBI or CIA says.  This AsiaTimes Internet News
could be a ruse.  If what the Asia Times that you have presented
is true, a kidnapping was perpetrated, because KSM’s wife and
child definitely were not warriors.

9/11 - US Marine Ken O’keefe: Israeli Mossad (@ 5:35 point) Dancing Israelis

“Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.”

—US official quoted in Carl Cameron’s Fox News report (that was later erased from the Fox News website) on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.

 
“According to ABCNEWS sources, Israeli and U.S. government officials worked out a deal — and after 71 days, the five Israelis were taken out of jail, put on a plane, and deported back home. While the former detainees refused to answer ABCNEWS’ questions about their detention and what they were doing on Sept. 11, several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home.

Said one of the men, “Our purpose was to document the event.” “

~~~~~~

After 71 days in prison, the Israeli Mossad agents are put on a plane & they are Scott-free

Watch video below & the pile of evidence regarding the Israeli Mossad involvement with 9-11. Watch Dan Rather & other news staff report on the tons of explosives found in the Israeli Mossad white van on the New Jersey Parkway.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcVTI09T5D4&feature=related

RE: ...reforming supposed incorrigibles…

sorry to be obscure… referring to ‘incorrigibles’ on TD’s comment blogs

as for KSM - if you’re new to my postings on the tiral… brief redux:

it’s pure theatre - the real KSM is DEAD - the half-wit patsy, who’ll say
anything he’s told to say at his show trial for the world, is the perfect mountebank shill
for the endless global war of terror - as called for by the global oligarchy

e.g.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DJ30Df01.html

South Asia - Oct 30, 2002
A chilling inheritance of terror
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

[...]

Now it has emerged that Kuwaiti national Khalid Shaikh Mohammed did indeed perish in the raid, but
his wife and child were taken from the apartment and handed over to the Federal Bureau of
Investigation (FBI), in whose hands they remain.

[...]

Maani,

I’ll pose a question which no one on TruthDig has, as of yet, been able to answer.

After Sept. 11, 2001 the United States began using an interrogation technique commonly known as “Water-Boarding”.  Which part of the technique can be regarding as “torture” and, can you describe the torture?

fearnotruth, April 8 at 5:24 pm,

That would be better than water boarding.  What is the need of
sadistically reforming supposed incorrigibles, prior to trial? Is the
purpose for water boarding only to punish him for being incorrigible? 
Who makes these punishment decisions?

GRYM:

“There is no evidence that Khalid Mohammed was water-boarded 183 times.  He was likely water-boarded five times in roughly five weeks.  There is no need for anyone to exaggerate in order to make a point.”

Excu-u-u-se me?!  What size rock are you living under?  Even 25-year CIA veteran Bob Baer noted in an interview with Chris Matthews that KSM was waterboarded 183 times.

But, okay, you want to quibble?  According to one or two “alternative” reports, KSM was not “waterboarded” 183 times (i.e., there were not 183 “sessions” in one month), but rather the water was “poured” 183 times during a smaller number of actual “sessions.”

Let’s assume this second report is correct.  Does it matter?!  Do you think YOU could withstand even two or three “pourings” of the water during a waterboarding session?!  Do you think YOU would NOT consider it “torture?”

Waterboarding has been around since the inquisition, and has ALWAYS been a form of torture.  It was banned by the Geneva Conventions, as well as every civilized country except the U.S.

What is perhaps even more important is…torture does not work.  The information produced by “enhanced interrogation” techniques has NEVER been proven effective: the CIA and military cannot even tell when the intel they are getting is real or simply “whatever they want to hear” so the torture will stop.

Here is former Director of National Intelligence Dennis Blair’s comment: “The information gained from these techniques was valuable in some instances, but there is no way of knowing whether the same information could have been obtained through other means. The bottom line is these techniques have hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security.”

Peace.

RE:You’re all for kangaroo kourt, aren’t you?

well, now that you ask, right here on Truthdig: picturing rico suave in the role of
Captain Kangaroo and GRYM as Mr. Greenjeans, who, upon the Captain’s verdicts,
dispatchs incorrigibles to the corner - face to the wall until they reform

Why weren’t these Israeli Mossad water- boarded / tortured by the FBI…etc…to extract vital information regarding 9-11?  Why only Arabs /  Moslems are tortured / water boarded?

Just imagine how much information would have been extracted out of the captured Israeli Mossad agents on 9-11 !!!

*********** 

The Five Dancing Israelis
Arrested On 9-11

How did they know there would be an event to
document on 9/11?

“It doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots of the dancing Israeli Mossad agents - here’s the most logical scenario:

1. The Israeli “movers” cheered the 9-11 attacks to celebrate the successful accomplishment of the greatest spy operation ever pulled off in history.

6. After several months, FBI and Justice Department “higher-ups” are able to gradually push aside the local FBI agents and free the Israelis quietly.”

~~~~

Click on link for the rest:

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

There is no evidence that Khalid Mohammed was water-boarded 183 times.  He was likely water-boarded five times in roughly five weeks.

There is no need for anyone to exaggerate in order to make a point.

fearnotruth, April 8 at 7:26 am,

You’re all for kangaroo kourt, aren’t you?

How many times was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed WATER BOARDED?

How about 183 times in 1 month.

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2009/04/18/khalid-sheikh-mohammed-was-waterboarded-183-times-in-one-month/

After so many continuous days of being water boarded this man
may have said what was required to survive a little longer.  Most
people would say anything to avoid continuous sadistic water
boarding torture, so whatever he said should not be allowed to be
used in any kind of legitimate court of law, unless kangaroo kourt
is what military court has become. 

If there was real evidence against this man, other than their water
boarding evidence, what would the purpose of water boarding him
be, if only to find out what they already know?

RE: Let’s return to the issue of Khalid Mohammed and his claims to have participated in the attacks on the Cole and the Pentagon…

INDEED let’s do…

http://www.nogw.com/cia.html

In case you weren’t paying attention…

Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman fought for the CIA in Afghanistan

http://tinyurl.com/2g6xu2

KSM “Confessed” To Attacking Bank Founded After His Arrest
Fallacy of testimony exposed as story blows up in Pentagon’s face

Prison Planet | March 16, 2007
Paul Joseph Watson

Khalid Shaikh Mohammed’s alleged confession testimony has been thoroughly discredited after it emerged that one of the targets
he identified, the Plaza Bank, was not founded until 2006, four years after the alleged Al-Qaeda mastermind’s arrest.

In his confession, KSM claims, “I was responsible for planning, training, surveying, and financing for the New (or Second) Wave of
attacks against the following skyscrapers after 9/11: ...Plaza Bank, Washington state.”

9-11 “Hijackers” Identified by FBI: Seven Are Alive and Well

http://tinyurl.com/3vrxeda

Seven of the men have subsequently been confirmed as being alive. None of the names listed are shown on the passenger
manifests of the hijacked flights.

Flight 77: Khalid Al-Midhar, Majed Moqed, Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Hani Hanjour

PHenry,

The year is twenty-eleven.  The Military Commissions Act amendments to the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2010 (H.R. 2647) were approved in Congress on Oct. 22, 2009.  On March 7 2011 President Obama (President Bush no longer in office) ordered that military commission trials be resumed at Guantanamo Bay.

No Supreme Court challenge has been upheld to date.

I previously wrote that the current Tribunal architecture was designed by the U.S. Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court to address this precise situation.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is an legally defined Enemy Combatant facing a Military Commission in the United States due to the nature of his actions while in armed conflict and Out of Uniform.

How is it I know all this?

You cite Hamdan v. Rumsfeld and the Supreme Court ruling that Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions covering issues of war applies to detainees in the War on Terror. 

- Common Article Three deals with armed conflict not of an international character (not state against state in nature) occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties.

-

In one fell swoop you threw aside your insistence that these issues are purely criminal in nature.  You’re now making a valid argument that Mr. Mohammed has certain protections under International law governing non-state and/or non-uniformed soldiers in an armed conflict.

What does all this mean?  It means Khalid Mohammed and others are accused of breaking the common laws of war.  It also means you are defending Mohammed and you don’t actually know why.

- I am willing to discuss any topic of your choosing.  I will not debate the law with you. 

Let’s return to the issue of Khalid Mohammed and his claims to have participated in the attacks on the Cole and the Pentagon, and how you so deeply desire to label these targets civilian in nature.

Since the 1942 Quirin case, the US signed and ratified the 1949 Geneva Conventions, which are, therefore, considered to be a part of US municipal law, in accordance with the Supremacy Clause in the Constitution of the United States In addition the US Supreme Court invalidated this premise, in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, by ruling that Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions applies to detainees in the War on Terror, and that the Military Tribunals used to try these suspects were in violation of US and international law.

Congress addressed these issues in the Military Commissions Act of 2006, so that enemy combatants and unlawful enemy combatants might be tried under military commissions; however, on 12 June 2008, the Supreme Court ruled, in Boumediene v. Bush, that Guantanamo Bay captives were entitled to access the US justice system, and that the military commissions as constituted under the Military Commissions Act of 2006 fell short of what was required of a court under the United States constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unprivileged_combatant

GRYM,

Once again your pet detective skills are not up to scratch.  The Geneva convention, by which we are a signatory long before Bush, has clear directions on how KSM is to be tried.  This was all previously cited but you just failed to investigate it as is your style.  Opinion does not count as fact.

In a real court of law, evidence would have to be provided implicting KSM.  Much of that evidence is supposition, speculation, obtained by torture and pure BS.  The reason I see for the need for secrecy in the venue of a Military court is that KSM is a product of our own Intelligence services as well as the ISI and if many of these ‘attacks’ are scutinized they way they would be in the civilian court, U.S. Spies would be fired, tried and jailed next to KSM.

Failing our own Constitution and long standing international treaties and conventions only serves as an example of the descent of the U.S.  government into a fascist autocracracy.

GRYM drank the Kool-Aid, he apparently believes
there is an Al Qaeda that wants what he has
and that the United States are angels that only see
and hear evil, but never do evil.  Al Qaeda is nothing more than a
military fear propaganda organization and
campaign ran by the CIA of the United
States to gain control of small countries that have resources the
corporate military industrial complex can make a profit from. Surely
anyone with an open mind can see that Al Qaeda always crops up
when a war for profit is needed and it is always for humanitarian
reasons that the death bombs begin dropping to give democracy
even if a great majority of the innocent have to die, it will fill the
MIC’s coffers and it is all worth it— money rules, as GRYM bows
before the money god with each successive war.

Maani, - “In fact, I have found quite a few - including former Harvard professors.”

-

Yes, I am trained in international law.  I have investigated precisely these matters for over 25 years.

Come now, Maani.  You go too far.  There is no Harvard Professor, past or present, who would agree with you.  You can take what I’ve told you here and repeat to anyone with terrific confidence.

You need to take some time to understand those who have declared war on you.

-

You have not answered my question regarding PHenry and his omission of facts regarding Khalid Mohammed and his role in the attacks of the U.S.S. Cole and the Pentagon.  Clearly those attacks were not civilian in nature.

GRYM:

Simply because you are trained in the law is not the be-all and end-all here: what is more important is which area of law you are trained in.  Because if it is not international law, your 25 years (as laudable and admirable as they may be) may be completely irrelevant here.

I, too, am trained in the law.  However, since it is not international law, I rely on the expertise of those who have it.  And in this regard, you are wrong that “You will not locate one individual, who is trained in the law, who will agree with you.”  In fact, I have found quite a few - including former Harvard professors.

You may know “the law” within your own area of expertise.  But that does not mean you have any better understanding of areas outside of your expertise than I do.  Particularly when, as noted, I am getting my information from some pretty darn reliable sources.

Peace.

Maani, - ““war” and “acts of war” can ONLY be declared or achieved by STATE actors”

-

Absolutely, unequivically, incorrect.

You may think you can fool a few people here, Maani.  However, I know you have simply made-up an explanation you imagine sounds good.  How do I know this?  I have worked in the law for over 25 years.  You will not locate one individual, who is trained in the law, who will agree with you.

You can take what I’ve shared on this subject and share it with others with great confidence.

-

By the way, have you ever heard the term “Civil War”?  In brief; that’s when non-state actors declare war on the State.

I’ll close this out by asking you one last question.  Have you read “The Declaration of War” written by Osama bin Laden?  You may disagree with the notion, however, bin Laden’s Declaration of War is very real to him and those who swear bayat.

You need to start paying attention to those who have declared themselves at war with you.

GRYM:

Your understanding of international law re “war” and “acts of war” continues to be faulty.

The law is clear: “war” and “acts of war” can ONLY be declared or achieved by STATE actors - NOT by non-state actors.  AQ, OBL, KSM are all NON-STATE actors.  (Even the Taliban is a non-state actor now that it is no longer the ruling goverment of the country.)

So, again, no matter what KSM may CLAIM about his actions, they CANNOT be considered “acts of war” within the definition of that phrase under international law.  I repeat again: I could claim to be a tree; it does not make me one under the definition of “tree.”

I cannot understand why you are unable to understand this concept.

Peace.

Maani, - “it doesn’t MATTER what KSM CLAIMS or what he BELIEVES himself to be.  What matters is international and U.S. law with respect to the definition of “war” and, thereby, the definition of a “war crime” for which a military tribunal would be the appropriate venue.”

-

The law on this is very clear.  YOU do not get to decide who is at war.  According to the law those individuals and groups involved decide the nature of their involvement by both their actions and stated intentions.

As an example: If you walk into the Pentagon, or any venue for that matter, and claim you have a bomb, you WILL BE CONVICTED for possessing a bomb.  It matters none if you actually have a bomb on your person.

-

Khalid Mohammed made his way to Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan where he studied topography, communications, camouflage, clandestine surveillance and the use of machine guns and explosives.  You wish to prop up a complete fallacy by labeling his actions a crime while he refers to himself as a trained soldier at war. - What Mr. Mohammed believes, as a matter of law, is everything.  As a matter of law you do not get to dismiss what he thinks and believes.  You may think that wrong but, it IS the law.

Khalid Mohammed claims to have been involved in the U.S.S. Cole and Pentagon attacks.  These are not mere crimes.  Each of those attacks, as a matter of international law, are acts of war. - Look it up! 

Study this issue in more depth.  Don’t take solace in the fact that others will make the same claims you make here.

-

Military Tribunals were designed for precisely this situation over 100 years ago.  The current Tribunal architecture was designed by the U.S. Congress and upheld by the Supreme Court to address this precise situation.

PH:

“How do you feel about the Goldstone report besides mocking me?”

Sadly, in the coldness of cyberspace, it is all too easy to misinterpret words.  In this regard, I was not mocking you, only questioning; indeed, that is why I initially asked whether your comment was serious or facetious.  So forgive me if you felt mocked; it is not in my nature to do so (though I admit to having an occasional sarcastic streak…LOL).

That said, I admit to not knowing enough about the Report to make an informed judgment on its veracity.

GRYM:

“The problem comes in that, if you ask Mr. Mohammed, he will say that nothing you’ve written is true.  His actions, according to him, were military in nature but targeted both civilian populations along with military tools and facilities (U.S.S. Cole, the Pentagon).  Khalid Mohammed was part of an army and received military training in that army.  These facts make a military tribunal a custom fit in this case.”

You continue to ignore the facts: it doesn’t MATTER what KSM CLAIMS or what he BELIEVES himself to be.  What matters is international and U.S. law with respect to the definition of “war” and, thereby, the definition of a “war crime” for which a military tribunal would be the appropriate venue.  You can repeat til you’re blue in the face what KSM claims or believes, but it is ultimately irrelevant.

As for being part of an “army,” once again we need to look at legal, international definitions.  What “army” was he part of?  AQ is NOT an “army,” despite the fact that they engage in military training.  In fact, even the Taliban is not an “army” be international legal definition.  Any more than a “war on terror” is a “war” by similar definition.

I can claim to be a tree; it does not make me one.  A “militia” (in the U.S.) is a “paramilitary” group, but would not be considered an “army” under legal definition, and if a member of a militia committed murder - even if they CLAIMED to be doing so for some “higher” “military” purpose - they would not be tried by a military tribunal, but by civilian courts.

Peace.

maani,

In your opinion; is it intentional on the part of PHenry to omit the Pentagon and the U.S.S. Cole when he wrote that Khalid Mohammed’s targets were civilian in nature?  Or are these omissions an terrific oversight created by a blinded, imaginative, mind?

Also, what is your motivation in agreeing with these obvious and glaring mistreatment of fact?

Maani,

You have a point, Obama doesn’t represent me on alot of issues, but he was a better choice than McCain’t.

Its a lessor of two evils association. While he is in that chair much like his counterparts in Russia, China and India, he speaks for his citizenss right or wrong.

There were many other investigators imput besides Goldstone in that report.  Many U.N. member nations had a chance to fully evaluate it before agreeing to its contents.

How do you feel about the Goldstone report besides mocking me?

PHenry, - Khalid Mohammed’s “crimes were civilian in nature, against civilians, he was never enlisted in any army, under the direction of any officer (maybe a case officer) a military tribuneral is not the place for this.”

-

The problem comes in that, if you ask Mr. Mohammed, he will say that nothing you’ve written is true.  His actions, according to him, were military in nature but targeted both civilian populations along with military tools and facilities (U.S.S. Cole, the Pentagon).

Khalid Mohammed was part of an army and received military training in that army.  These facts make a military tribunal a custom fit in this case.

The accumulative information that has been available from various sources provided on the internet, and the fact that this man has been waterboarded HOW MANY TIMES suggests that he has been and continues to be misused as a scapegoat. Reading the Chronicles of Chip Tatum and the Chronicles of Ted Gunderson broadens ones perspective. If one has average intelligence and isn´t a hired pawn.

Due to lies and distortions presented via the GHWBushSr entourage and follow-on puppetry, it would surprise me if any of the charges against him by the USGOV are accurate. Applying historical trends of USGOV representatives in similar situations, and in this man´s case the influence of the MOSSAD, one might conclude that this man was very little if at all associated with situations he is debited with. Similar to the majority of tortured prisoners on Guantanamo and in “secretive” lockups in Europe, and U.S.Military lockups in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

It is more likely that he accepted bribes of CIA representatives, yet declined to carry out demands placed on him, thus, is being punished for not being a good boy, and totally puppetizing himself. Similar to the situation of Sadaam Hussein.

You can tell Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has been tortured severely from the picture that is intended to make the people in the United States want to kill him without justice; which makes it pretty plain that he will not get justice in the military where he will be the rabbit among a bunch of wolves.

The Cleansing of Israel’s War Crimes

Goldstone’s Rethink

By JONATHAN COOK

4/5/2011

Nazareth.

“Israeli leaders have barely hidden their jubilation at an opinion article in last Friday’s Washington Post by the South African jurist Richard Goldstone reconsidering the findings of his United Nations-appointed inquiry into Israel’s attack on Gaza in winter 2008.

For the past 18 months the Goldstone Report had forced Israel on to the defensive by suggesting its army – as well as Hamas, the ruling faction in Gaza – had committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during Israel’s three-week Operation Cast Lead. Some 1,400 Palestinians were killed, including hundreds of women and children.

Goldstone’s report, Israeli officials worried, might eventually pave the way to war crimes trials against Israeli soldiers at the International Criminal Court in the Hague.

In what appeared to be a partial retraction of some of his findings against Israel, Goldstone argued that he would have written the report differently had Israel cooperated at the time of his inquiry.

Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime minister, immediately called on the cookUnited Nations to shelve the Goldstone Report; Ehud Barak, the defence minister, demanded an apology; and Avigdor Lieberman, the foreign minister, said Israel’s actions in Gaza had been “vindicated”.

Israel would certainly like observers to interpret Goldstone’s latest comments as an exoneration. In reality, however, he offered far less consolation to Israel than its supporters claim.

The report’s original accusation that Israeli soldiers committed war crimes still stands, as does criticism of Israel’s use of unconventional weapons such as white phosphorus, the destruction of property on a massive scale, and the taking of civilians as human shields.

Instead Goldstone restated his position in two ways that Israel will seek to exploit to the full.

The first was an observation that since his report’s publication in September 2009 “Israel has dedicated significant resources to investigate over 400 allegations of operational misconduct”.

In the past Goldstone has made much of the need for Israel and Hamas to investigate incidents where civilians were targeted, saying that otherwise his report should be transferred to the ICC. In his article he favourably compared Israel’s investigations to the failure by Hamas to carry out any probes.

The significance of Goldstone’s reassessment from Israel’s point of view was underlined this week by comments to the Jerusalem Post newspaper from a senior unnamed legal official in the Israeli military. He said Goldstone’s professed confidence in Israel’s investigatory system would help to forestall future war cimes probes by the UN.

That will be cause for Palestinian concern at a time when, in response to renewed hostilities between Israel and Hamas, some Israeli government ministers have called for a Cast Lead 2.

Another unnamed commander told the popular Israeli news website Ynet yesterday that Goldstone’s change of tack might lift the threat of arrest on war crimes charges from Israeli soldiers travelling abroad.

However, according to both Israeli human rights groups and a committee of independent legal experts appointed by the UN to monitor implementation of the report, Goldstone’s applause for Israel’s investigations is unwarranted.

Sarit Michaeli, a spokeswoman for B’Tselem, an Israeli organisation monitoring human rights in the occupied territories, said Israel had failed to conduct a prompt, independent or transparent inquiry.

“The materials on which Israel has relied have not been made available to us, so we are not in a position to judge the quality of the investigations or the credibility of the findings.” “

~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook04052011.html

PH:

“Seriously, the Goldstone report was accepted by Russia, China and India as factual.  The world is very aware of Israels belligerance towards the Palestinians. The report only confirmed what we already knew. The combined populations of China, India and Russia I’m willing to bet total more than half the worlds population.  Their affirmation counts.”

You can’t be serious!  Are you suggesting that the governments of Russia, China and India “represent” their populations any more or better than our government represents our population?!  Just because the “powers that be” in those countries “accepted” the report as “factual” does not mean that the billions of people In those countries support that decision, any more than most (?) Americans support the decisions of Obama and his administration.

????????

Peace.

Maani,

Seriously, the Goldstone report was accepted by Russia, China and India as factual.  The world is very aware of Israels belligerance towards the Palestinians. 

The report only confirmed what we already knew.

The combined populations of China, India and Russia I’m willing to bet total more than half the worlds population.  Their affirmation counts.

PH:

“Goldstone provided a objective report, Russia, China and India ratified it.  Thats over half the world and we are democratic, right?”

I can’t tell if you’re being serious or facetious. ??

“KSM can claim combatant status, many criminals in America do too.  His crimes were civilian in nature, against civilians, he was never enlisted in any army, under the direction of any officer (maybe a case officer) a military tribuneral is not the place for this.”

Beautifully put.

Peace.

GRYM,

Not exactly,

http://www2.wsav.com/news/2011/apr/06/goldstone-wont-seek-gaza-report-nullification-ar-1677386/

Unless Goldstone cries ‘no mas’ the tribal horde will seek to undermine him the rest of his life.

Goldstone provided a objective report, Russia, China and India ratified it.  Thats over half the world and we are democratic, right?

I can’t wait for the fireworks when the next Gaza freedom flotilla sails at the end of May.  It will reflect the Goldstone report.

KSM can claim combatant status, many criminals in America do too.  His crimes were civilian in nature, against civilians, he was never enlisted in any army, under the direction of any officer (maybe a case officer) a military tribuneral is not the place for this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war

Civilan court trumps Military court and a crime of this magnitude deserves the publics attention, lets have open testimony on CNN.

GRYM:

“Honestly? You’re shocked that I don’t follow your every post and opinion?”

Yup!  And now my ego is hopelessly, permanently bruised.  LOL.  Seriously, though, given how “strong” your comment in that regard was (i.e., 9/11 and the loonies like me who believe there was complicity by individuals and agencies in the U.S.), it would have seemed something you WOULD have picked up on in other threads.

Peace.

Maani, - “But I’m shocked that you didn’t already know this, since I have made no secret of it in many other threads in which both of us posted.”

-

Honestly? You’re shocked that I don’t follow your every post and opinion?

RE: ‘allegiance’ among so-called ‘terrorists’ - simply put: mutual legend building;
and as the saying goes, “you will know them by their legends”

as witnessed here - http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares 

where the infamous Clash of Civilizations thesis is ginned up

and here http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=264709845600167246# 

where the infamous Red Brigade is exposed as patsies to take the fall for NATO’s
Stay Behind Gladio Network European wave of terror, intended to counter
legitimate gains by the Communist Parties in Europe’s Parliaments.

GRYM:

“Khalid Mohammed describes himself as a soldier at war.  He further claims to have pledged an elegance to Osama bin Laden who has, very publicly, formally declared war on several nation states. It is true that some people are more comfortable thinking on these matters as criminal in nature, however, this belief does not change how Qaeda types conduct themselves as if in a war.  You’re attempting again to argue with Khalid Mohammed when you write that he’s a criminal while he repeatedly claims to be an out of uniform soldier.  An ‘enemy combatant.’ A military tribunal, in this case, is appropriate.”

You seem to miss the point.  It doesn’t MATTER what KSM or AQ - or, indeed, OBL - “think” about themselves, or how they “conduct” themselves. Indeed, your own phrase “AS IF in a war” belies the truth of the matter.

What matters is whether a non-state actor - group or individual - can in fact “declare” war, no matter what they CLAIM to be doing.  I would suggest that they cannot.  That the very definition of “war” - and thus “war crimes,” and the use of military tribunals - PRECLUDES non-state actors.  Indeed, our “war” on terror is no such thing from a literal, legal point of view; it is not “war” as defined for purposes of legal jurisdiction.

And, yes, I question the “official story” of 9/11 as well, and believe individuals and/or agencies within the U.S. were complicit in the planning and execution of the events.  But I’m shocked that you didn’t already know this, since I have made no secret of it in many other threads in which both of us posted.

Besides, my personal politics are not at issue here, or even relevant.  What is relevant is what I stated above.

Peace.

Maani,

Khalid Mohammed describes himself as a soldier at war.  He further claims to have pledged an elegance to Osama bin Laden who has, very publicly, formally declared war on several nation states.

It is true that some people are more comfortable thinking on these matters as criminal in nature, however, this belief does not change how Qaeda types conduct themselves as if in a war. 

You’re attempting again to argue with Khalid Mohammed when you write that he’s a criminal while he repeatedly claims to be an out of uniform soldier.  An “enemy combatant”.

A military tribunal, in this case, is appropriate.

-

You and others also claim that Mr. Mohammed only confessed to masterminding the Sept. 11, attacks under duress.  Yet you seem willing to ignore that he has never recanted his claims of involvement and has already plead himself guilty.

I honestly don’t know what to make of your belief that FearNo “fearlessly” maintains KSM’s relationship to those complicit HERE, when FearNo claims Mr. Mohammed no longer exists.  Or are you misunderstanding what FearNo is claiming?

If you too are going to attempt to lay the attacks of Sept. 11, at the feet of the United States we can end the discourse altogether.  That will not interest me in the least.

GRYM:

“Khalid Mohammed declares himself a soldier engaged in war.  As intentions go it matters none if others disagree with him. - Both International and U.S. Law separates acts of war from civilian jurisprudence.  - No nation can tolerate or defend those who would wage war ‘out of uniform’ and largely targeting civilians.”

KSM’s “declaration” notwithstanding, can any action of a non-state group (much less an individual) truly be considered an “act of war” (in the literal, formal, legal sense) that would lead to such an act being tried as a “war crime?”  Are you not re-defining “act of war” and “war crime” so that it fits your post facto claim of the supposed jurisdictional “damage” it would do to try him in a civilian court rather than a military tribunal?

To me, the only question is whether U.S. law permits any foreign national to be tried in U.S. courts under U.S. law; i.e., with the same protections that Americans have.  My understanding (from reading, research and discussions with many attorneys, including constitutional lawyers) is that U.S. law does permit this - in fact, requires it once a foreign national is extradicted to the U.S. to be tried.

Ultimately, if one sees the events of 9/11 as an “act of war,” as you do (wrongly, in my opinion), then, yes, a military tribunal would be the more appropriate venue for justice.  However, if one sees the events of 9/11 as a crime (murder) - even if such crime is international in scope - then civilian courts would be the more appropriate venue.

The REAL question, of course (as fearnotruth fearlessly maintains), is KSM’s relationship to those complicit HERE, in the U.S., in the events of 9/11.

Peace.

PHenry,

Just curious if you’ve seen this.  If memory serves you have given the, so-called, Goldstone report great weight.

-

Richard Goldstone, the South African jurist who lent his name to a U.N. report condemning Israel for war crimes, has now issued a very public retraction. “If I had known then what I know now,” he wrote in the Washington Post, “the Goldstone Report would have been a different document.” New information has persuaded him, he said, “that civilians were not intentionally targeted as a matter of policy” by Israel.

RE: ...siding with KSM against the US…

whoa, big fella - when the Mighty Whirlitzer spins its tunes,
don’t expect those who know the score to be casting votes for the talent…
as cited:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DJ30Df01.html

South Asia - Oct 30, 2002
A chilling inheritance of terror
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

[...]

Now it has emerged that Kuwaiti national
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed did indeed perish in the raid...

[...]

GRYM,

“If now we were living in the Revolutionary War (we are not) and George Washington he being arrested through Britain {he wasn’t}. For sure he, they would consider him enemy combatant {maybe}. But American, they consider him as hero.”{except the loyalists}

Talking about fiction, If pigs had wings they would be eagles.

“If terrorism is to throw terror into the heart of your enemy and the enemy of Allah, then we thank Him, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate, for enabling us to be terrorists.”

A Nathan Hale moment.

What’s really parthetic in all this back and forth is that the vast majority of truthdiggers are siding with KSM against the US. What more evidence is needed to prove that this website is dedicated to the end of American exceptionalism and the American experiment?

“If now we were living in the Revolutionary War and George Washington he being arrested through Britain. For sure he, they would consider him enemy combatant. But American, they consider him as hero.”

“If terrorism is to throw terror into the heart of your enemy and the enemy of Allah, then we thank Him, the Most Merciful, the Most Compassionate, for enabling us to be terrorists.”

Statement read at tribunal, U.S. military base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba

-

Khalid Mohammed declares himself a soldier engaged in war.  As intentions go it matters none if others disagree with him. - Both International and U.S. Law separates acts of war from civilian jurisprudence.  - No nation can tolerate or defend those who would wage war “out of uniform” and largely targeting civilians.  It’s unconscionable (No, I do not need to hear another story on the many crimes of the U.S. when evaluating KSM or tribunal law).

It seems a dramatic mistake to ignore that Mr. Mohammed, not only publicly admits his involvement in mass murder in the context of war, he’s already plead himself guilty during his preceding GITMO tribunal. 

It seems reasonable to allow him his plea.

RE: Release the political prisoners from Guantanamo.

Guantanamo is essential to the Global War Of Terror - sometimes years are
needed to ‘turn’ a captive and train him has a double agent before sending him
back to provoke more terror and set up sheep-dipping ops to smell up fresh
patsy recruits - you can’t run a black-op/psy-op as massive as The Global War
Of Terror without legions of double agents

the most infamous so-called ‘recidivist, reprobate’ detainees so far released,
are now double agents - very old game - moreover in modern mass-media
times they make dandy provocateur scape goats   -  beaucoup PR, beacoup
theatre.

Al Qaeda: Pawns of CIA Insurrection from Libya to Yemen
http://www.prisonplanet.com/al-qaeda-pawns-of-cia-insurrection-from-libya-to-yemen.html             
Webster G. Tarpley, Ph.D.
TARPLEY.net
April 4, 2011
After two weeks of imperialist attack, Libya is being mangled by al Qaeda
terrorists, civil war, NATO air raids, cruise missiles, Predator drones, and C-130
gunships – all made possible by the CIA-backed al Qaeda rebels of Cyrenaica.
US, British, French, and Dutch commandos have taken leadership of the rebel
forces, and are arming them with modern weapons in flagrant violation of the
arms embargo specified in UN Security Council resolution 1973.

Al Qaeda is also stealing heavy weapons on its own, as the president of Chad
has reported. The singing tomorrows of the fatuous US-UK color revolution
rhetoric have dissolved, exposing the hideous reality of a brutal, cynical,
imperialist drive to destroy the modern nation-state itself.

[...]

2 things to never forget:

1. “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus
Angelton - Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)

2. “The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the
major media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

Capt Suave,

KSM is a civilian and deserves to be tried in the venue of where the crime occured.

The U.S. Military is subordinate to Civilians, not the otherway around.  KSM needs to be tried by U.S. jurors not military.  His crimes were against civilians not soldiers.

In this way, the civilian command structure can take into account the excesses against KSM and others and write more specific SOP’s for the military to follow.

I don’t want the Military to be able to sweep its crimes under the rug.

Maani:

“It is an absolutely confirmed fact civilian trials of terrorists have had a better success rate - with longer terms - than kilitary tribunals.  Indeed, one of KSM’s buddies, prosecuted in a military tribunal, was released after five years and is back with his buddies in AQ.”

Ok. So what? Does anybody in our government think that the PRIMARY reason we are trying him in a military court is because it will more likely result in a guilty verdict and the death penalty? As I said to PatHenry- this is about jurisdiction and the definitions of “war” and “combatant”, and I might add, “soldier” and “battlefield”.

And by your examples, it sounds like tribunals aren’t so “kangaroo” after all.

RE: U.S. Law need to be addressed and prosecuted.

hear, hear!

INVESTIGATE! INDICT! PROSECUTE! EXECUTE! for High Treason and Misprisions of
Treason, the crimes surrounding the 9/11 Coup - Explode the 9/11 Myth and the
Global War Of Terror is denied raison d’être.

Whose story are you going to believe?

KSM or the U.S. Government?

http://mediamatters.org/research/200904220036

The timeline depicts wanton torture not only against KSM but his children as well. 

It is an outrage that our government has conducted itself in the most unAmerican fashion. 

Violations of international treaties and U.S. Law need to be addressed and prosecuted.

http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&other;_al-qaeda_operatives=khalidShaikMohammed

Trying him in the normal court system would have been a kangaroo court too—he has been tortured.

Release the political prisoners from Guantanamo.

Maani,

When you locate the pretrial testimony of Khalid Mohammed you’ll find that he corroborates reports that he has held classroom sessions for the FBI and CIA regarding the tactics and ideology of Qaeda groups.

Word Wide Web spiders is not your best direction on this.  Too wide and unfocused of an net.

I can only do this one time.  You must do the rest yourself.
U.S. Department of Justice
Executive Office for United States Attorneys

GRYM:

“No, I did not claim Mr. Mohammed made those statements prior to interrogation.”

GRYM a few posts earlier:

“If it matters to anyone; according to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed he confessed several times to devising the plan to bring down the World Trade Center and attack Washington before he was water-boarded.”

So which is it?

Peace.

GRYM:

With due respect, the point is that I DID do my own work - and found nothing whatsoever on KSM and classes with the CIA/FBI.  And I am a proefssional Internet researcher (i.e., I get paid to do it), so I am extremely familiar with keyword and order techniques to get what I’m looking for.

As an aside, if KSM is your source, I would automatically question it, since he has proven that he is a liar - whether situational or pathological.

Peace.

Manni - “your original claim was that he made those statements EVEN PRIOR to being waterboarded.”

-

No, I did not claim Mr. Mohammed made those statements prior to interrogation.  I wrote that Mr. Mohammed “taunted his captures” in confessing his role in the Sept. 11, attacks.

When you locate the pretrial testimony of Khalid Mohammed you’ll find that he corroborates reports that he has, on several occasions and post interrogation, held classroom sessions for the FBI and CIA regarding the tactics and ideology of Qaeda groups.

My source is Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.  You must do the work yourself, Maani.  I am sorry, however, I no longer provide assistance or links here.

GRYM:

I am asking for specific sourcing on KSM “conducting classroom sessions” with the FBI and CIA.”  I have not even found that claim coming from KSM, much less any media source, whether MSM or AM.  Thus, please provide some source for that claim.

And yes, you quoted the man, but, as I noted, he made those statements AFTER being waterboarded.  However, your original claim was that he made those statements EVEN PRIOR to being waterboarded.  Yet I could find no source at all - including KSM himself - for that claim.

Thus, BOTH of your main claims are highly questionable unless you can provide any source at all for either of them.

Peace.

KSM, according to his former lawyer, wanted to be
tried by a military tribunal rather than by a
civilian court because it would automatically give
him warrior status. Rather than being tried as a
common criminal which trial in a civilian court would
classify him as, he would (apparently will) become a
warrior for Islam.

And, of course, trial in a civilian court would lay
bare for all the world to see that the American pose
as the, perhaps only, nation in the world that
respects human rights, believes in justice for all,
condemns cruel and unusual punishment is just that, a
pose, so perhaps the next time we bomb, invade and
occupy another sovereign state to free its citizens
from the injustice, cruelty, and disregard for human
rights of its reigning dictator, the rest of the
world won’t buy it?

KSM is toast no matter which way the trial goes.  At least with a military tribunal it is done behind closed doors and the appeal process is much limited so that he and others will meet their demise rather quickly.

Maani, - “please provide sourcing.”

-

Please keep in mind that you are not arguing a time-line with me.  You’re arguing a time-line with Khalid Mohammed.  The man who, even today, admits his role in planning and carrying out the Sept. 11, attacks.

I gave you my source.  You have dismissed him in favor of your favorite media sources. 

-

I never indicated when Mr. Mohammed said that he was responsible for 9/11 from “A to Z”.  I only quoted the man.

GRYM:

Your timeline is seriously faulty.  Yes, KSM said those things - in 2007, long after the waterboarding.

As for your claim of “went on to conduct classroom sessions with the FBI and CIA agents,” please provide sourcing.

Thanks.

“I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of American Jew, Daniel Pearl, in the city of Karachi, Pakistan. For those who would like to confirm, there are pictures of me on the Internet holding his head.” - Khalid Shaikh Mohammed

Maani, - “Not only did KSM NOT “confess” to his involvement in 9/11 prior to his detention and torture, but he refused to answer ANY questions without a lawyer….”

-

My source is Khalid Mohammed. - “I was responsible for the 1993 World Trade Center Operation.” - “I was responsible for the 9/11 Operation, from A to Z.”

According to Khalid Mohammed’s pretrial testimony your media sources are incorrect about his confessions.  He claims to have taunted his captures in admitting his part in the Sept. 11, attacks, however, he swore never to divulge details.

After three water-boarding session Mr. Mohammed began divulging those details and went on to conduct classroom sessions with the FBI and CIA agents.

I think it’s important to keep these matters on context.

GRYM:

I’m not sure where you got your info, but it’s faulty.

Not only did KSM NOT “confess” to his involvement in 9/11 prior to his detention and torture, but he refused to answer ANY questions without a lawyer when he was first captured.  As well, prior to being given into U.S. custody, he had been interrogated in two other prisons (one in Pakistan, one in Jordan), during which he did not confess to anything.

Once in U.S. custody, he remained silent, and was only given increasing levels of “enhanced interrogation” because he REFUSED to confess to 9/11.  As well, he admitted in 2006 that he had provided a great deal of false information in order to stop the waterboarding.

Finally, the “183” times he was waterboarded in one month is only the number of times the CIA ADMITTED to waterboarding him; he may well have been waterboarded a great many more times.  By the way, in case you haven’t done the math, even 183 times is six times per day for an entire month.  I would say that if YOU had undergone that, you would probably have provided false information to get them to stop.

Peace.

khepri,

I think the best way to understanding why “they” attack so many nations and their people is to listen to Zawahiri, Nasrallah, Rahman, Nosair and others speak directly to the issue.

Too many people ignore the above and lean heavily on others interpretations.

Americans need to hear more about why they are the targets of these attacks.  Only a public and pubicly reported trial could accomplish this.

It seems important to keep a handful of facts straight before we make decisions.

If it matters to anyone; according to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed he confessed several times to devising the plan to bring down the World Trade Center and attack Washington before he was water-boarded.  Not as a result of the technique.  In fact, according to Mohammad, he confessed to planning the attacks before he was moved onto American soil.

According to CIA interrogators, enhanced interrogation techniques had been employed on Mohammed when it was determined that he was able to defy all other interrogation methods during questioning about the little known Al Qaeda organization.

After three water-boarding sessions, during which water was applied to his face roughly 180 times, Khalid Mohammed not only became cooperative, he began willingly holding classroom sessions for the FBI and CIA on the tactics and ideology of a small but deadly group of Muslim extremists.

-

Guantanamo, Rendition, Enhanced Interrogations, Drone Attacks, the Patriot Act, Domestic Electronic Intelligence Gathering, Indefinite Detention, Preemptive Military Attacks and Military Tribunals have, for nearly ten years, been labeled the work of evil “Neo-Cons”.

Barrack Obama is the true “New-Conservative” today.

Is that the only photo of this creep? Reckon, we gotta pick the best shot for the sake of histrionics.

Maybe call in the Edward’s salon guy.

I’m surprised that no one has mentioned the obvious.  Every president (indeed, every politician up for re-election) will time things for optimal advantage to their campaign.  Yet this is perhaps the most blatant example I have ever seen.  Or is it coincidence that this news was reported less than 24 hours after Obama announced he was running for re-election?  Of course it wasn’t; after all, why would Obama step on his own media toes unless there was good reason?  This change was announced so that the KSM/terrorist trials would remain in the news during this election cycle (or don’t you think it will be dragged out?...) so that Obama will look “tough on terrorists.”

Rico:

It is an absolutely confirmed fact civilian trials of terrorists have had a better success rate - with longer terms - than kilitary tribunals.  Indeed, one of KSM’s buddies, prosecuted in a military tribunal, was released after five years and is back with his buddies in AQ.  Meanwhile, numerous terror trials in civilian courts have yielded tougher sentences, including life in prison.

And I may as well add my own comment to those of others here: KSM has admitted to masterminding 9/11…and the JFK assassination, and Pearl Harbor, and the Reichstag fire…and…..LOL

Peace.

@drbhelthi: you say “One wonders if in addition to
having its constitutional charter annulled by executive
order, the FBI has been assigned illegal tasks.”

Ha ha ha ha, that’s funny!!! Who wonders? I c’mon, who
is still uncertain about this fact??? But yeah, I’m
with you…

” - not to rain on anyone’s parade… but, it’s pure theatre - e.g.”
By fearnotruth, April 5 at 6:50 am

One wonders if in addition to having its constitutional charter
annulled by executive order, the FBI has been assigned illegal tasks.
For example, creating a replacement for Osama bin Laden, in addition
to assisting with the creation of underwear and other bomber-types
among Moslemdom. All of whom are presented with devices that cannot
explode, thus are not bombs, thus the entrapped are not potential
bombers? 

Hundreds of patriotic Americans prevented from doing their jobs, many
of whom cry in their sleep at night. Perhaps get together and profer
the available criminal evidence against the current administration?
Beginning with illegal CIA activity, ordered by the U.S. President.

not to rain on anyone’s parade… but, it’s pure theatre - e.g.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DJ30Df01.html

South Asia - Oct 30, 2002
A chilling inheritance of terror
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

[...]

Now it has emerged that Kuwaiti national Khalid Shaikh Mohammed did indeed perish in the raid, but his wife and child were taken from the apartment and handed over to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), in whose hands they remain.

[...]

But now it emerges that an Arab woman and a child were taken to an ISI safe house, where they identified the Shaikh Mohammed’s body as their husband and father. The body was kept in a private NGO mortuary for 20 days before being buried, under the surveillance of the FBI, in a graveyard in the central district of Karachi.

The widow subsequently underwent exhaustive interrogation in the custody of FBI officials, during which she revealed details of people who visited her husband, and of his other contacts and plans. News of the death of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was intentionally suppressed so that officials could play on the power of his name to follow up leads and contacts.

[...]

California Ray, April 5 at 1:12 am,

Is ditching internationally recognized standards
for fair trials popular with more than the
conservative government?  There may be a
preemptive kerosene/gasoline immersion
accident to avoid a trial.  Lord knows, the CIA
would never want the public to know what this
man has to say any more than they wanted the
public to know what the supposed perpetrators
of the Oklahoma City Bombing had to say, and, of
course, all the secrecy around everything about
the World Trade Center/Pentagon 9/11/01
Destruction Scenario was strictly for homeland
security.

Obama is going with the popular flow and ditching internationally recognized
standards for fair trials.  Therefore, the accused will be kept immersed in kerosene
pending the verdict.

It’s questionable as to whether Khalid Sheikh Mohammed actually did what was confessed to, as anyone would confess to anything under the continued torture of being water-boarded.

Capt Suave,

Besides, if you’re worried about a “kangaroo” verdict, even Holder (Obama) said there was no doubt about KSM’s guilt and even a civilain trial would have been a mere formality leading up to the death penalty.

Now you have me worried, Holder’s (Obama’s} lips were moving, why sidestep a ‘formality’ which broadcasts to the world that we (America) work by the same set of rules of law for everyone.  No, I think that the Governments case is a bust against this guy.  He may be a terrorist by the truest of definitions but he is not the Godzilla of terrorists as the Government claims.

I want to see the case televised, PPV.

Article 5. No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading
treatment or punishment.
Article 11(1). Everyone charged with a penal offense has the right to be presumed
innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had
all the guarantees necessary for his defense.

Article 5. “No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”

Oops, too late for that one.

Article 11(1). “Everyone charged with a penal offense has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defense.”

Hmm. Time will tell.

“Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss”

Pat Henry:

But that was the point! These trials will NOT be handled by the “US justice system”- any more than trails of German soldiers captured by local police in New York and New Jersey were tried by the US justice system during WWII. And that’s ON PURPOSE. They will be handled by the “military justice system” as they should be under the circumstances.

To characterize the military justice system as a “kangaroo court” is a bit over the top for me.

Besides, if you’re worried about a “kangaroo” verdict, even Holder (Obama) said there was no doubt about KSM’s guilt and even a civilain trial would have been a mere formality leading up to the death penalty.

This issue isn’t about KSM et al. It’s about defining “war” and “combatants” and other messy topics.

A shining example of the U.S. Justice system in the eyes of the world.

It’s tough to find a place to get American Justice done these days. Those damned Egyptian rebels screwed-up their country so badly that renditioning KSM to Mubarak’s torture chambers for trial, like we did in the good old days, is out. And with us bombing and strafing and Tomahawking Moammar’s tent-home, he’s probably in no mood to take anymore of our captives to go through trials in his dungeons.
So we’re going to resort to using our own US military, world-renowned for it’s system of justice, to give KSM a fair trial in Guantanamo. Let’s hope that this time, our intel-challenged US military brass has the wits to not video-record the assistant prosecutor Colonels pulling out KSM’s finger-and-toe nails with pliers and setting fire to his pubic hair while the second-Lieutenant ‘defense’ attorneys are asking him questions. Otherwise, we’re going to get yet some more bad PR-coverage in the World Press.

Simply threatening Bush or Cheney with the water torture would result in them confessing to masterminding the 9/11 attacks. Torture anyone, and they will admit to anything.  The only difference in torturing Bush and Cheney would be, of course, that Bush and Cheney would be admitting to something they’d actually done.