Re: Payson

(cont.)
Consider our Congress, we can easily write off ANY
Republican doing anything to bring sanity to the
situation.  But how about those “conservative”
Democrats? Obviously the corruption is rampant.

What do you do in that situation? Should Obama just
supersede the law and take control? Wasn’t that the
very problem we had with CHENEY (oh, I mean Bush of
course). What do you think will transpire if any of
these corrupt individuals is allowed to regain
control of the presidency again?

The Koch Brothers will run fake Democrats in the next
election, it is their MO. If these are elected, we
will continue to be at a standstill. All types of
dirty money will find their way into this next
election and at every level.

Even if you believe that reelecting Obama will cause gridlock or there would be no change
for the next four years, still it
would be the better choice. One because it would buy
us time to coordinate a more concentrated effort to
change things and two because the alternative is
unthinkable.

Re: Payson

“letting the many American spy agencies torture
people in secret, but he doesn’t seem able or willing to stop any of it.”

Let’s assume for arguments sake a worst case scenario, that Obama isn’t able to stop what our spy agencies are doing. (worst case since if he isn’t WILLING that means it can be done) How would having any one of the Republicans as president rectify anything? I surmise it would get worse, exponentially so.

Additionally, how do you know the spy agencies are
engaging in these activities “in secret”? Again,
let’s assume they are.  It is now ILLEGAL, so they’ll have to be caught at it. But when we have corruption at such massive levels, this is a difficult thing to do. 

Your comment: ” The United States is carrying out many of the same acts that our politicians lecture our “enemies” about.”

What does it matter what we lecture our ENEMIES
about? Every issue is easier to argue in
hindsight since with current issues there are
too many assumptions.

For this reason, take Nazi Germany during the war.
Would we as a nation LIE to them? Of course! Did we kill people just like they killed people? Yes AND No. War is ALWAYS an ugly thing. A horrendous thing. But the killing was on both sides, and depravities in relation to the war itself happened on both sides. But, we were NOT attempting to “take over the world” like Hitler was, nor were we carrying out a genocide. We WERE fighting to save
innocents, EVEN THOUGH innocents were killed. We didn’t want to enter the war but circumstances dictated that we should. 

In this same vein, Al Qaeda has declared war against the United States, they TOO want to turn the whole world into fundamentalist Muslims. They TOO kill, torture or terrorize anyone who doesn’t accept THEIR BRAND of Islam. I realize this is NOT the case of all Muslims, just like it wasn’t the case of ALL Germans. So I’m not attempting to stir up the “there’s a terrorist behind every corner” mantra, but in a real sense they ARE an enemy of the WORLD, just like the Nazis were.

Outraged:  I understand your feelings about these candidates and their lust for
torture, but they aren’t actually president.  I DO remember where we were three
years ago, that is why I am so concerned that nothing has changed.  I don’t think
Obama loves killing innocent people with drones and letting the many American
spy agencies torture people in secret, but he doesn’t seem able or willing to stop
any of it.  Obama IS the president, and though he isn’t advocating torture from the
podium like the Christians-In-Name-Only brigade, it is still happening.  Every
time I travel or consider joining a legal protest, I feel far less free than even three
years ago.  The United States is carrying out many of the same acts that our
politicians lecture our “enemies” about.  The violent rhetoric of the shameless with
no actual power can easily rile our nerves, but it can also distract us from the
erosion of our civil liberties and the ability to see that the horrors that began
under W. are still happening.

Lock the bastards up and throw away the goddamn key.
There is no help available for people like them. Sick
depraved Koch kissing degenerates.

Yet some have the gall to say it doesn’t matter who
becomes president. They are so wrapped up in their own
self serving platitudes and proclaimed purity they have lost touch with
reality. How short their memories are and how ignorant they have become of just exactly where we were three short years ago.

I strongly suspect that the Radical Right’s
“taking our country back” is code for reinstalling many of the confining and punitive techniques characteristic of the earliest days of the Republic—stocks, drowning, hanging, ostracism and other juicy tortures that “put the fear of God” into the hearts and minds of ignorant souls bent out of shape by a punitive religious notion of establishing a “heavenly society” in the “New World.” It’s all part of the same old myth of the salutary effects of pain and suffering, of saints and sinners, blood and guts, lost and found, and the class distinction between those who “deserve” to suffer because they are not of the “elect.” It’s deep-rooted, malicious and militant.  It requires a generosity of spirit not easily cultivated in a capitalistic society.
  It survives because those of us who are not suffering so much can look down on others who are suffering more and say:  “At least I’m better off than they!” It puts strong restraints on change and defeats reformers who fear they may lose what little they have.
  The idea of “liberty and justice for all” has been a thin veneer of idealistic pretense ever since the words were first uttered.  The unfulfilled promise is crying out for acknowledgment. Ask anyone trying to sleep under a freeway or scrounging in a dumpster for food, clothing and shelter.