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Ear to the Ground

Israeli Official Sees Attacking Iran Unavoidable

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Posted on Jun 6, 2008
Mofaz and Rumsfeld
AP photo / Evan Vucci

I’ve seen that bad haircut before: Shaul Mofaz, left, greets fellow hawk Donald Rumsfeld in 2003, when both were chiefs of defense for their respective governments.

An Israeli official was quoted Friday as saying that “attacking Iran in order to stop its nuclear plans will be unavoidable,” a remark that may further escalate tensions between the two countries as leaders continue to lob rhetorical digs at each other.

The official, Shaul Mofaz, is a deputy prime minister and the highest-level official to make such an explicit threat against Iran, which has categorically denied building nuclear weapons while defying pressure from the U.S. and Israel to abandon its uranium enrichment program.


The Guardian:

An Israeli minister has said an attack on Iran’s nuclear sites will be “unavoidable” if Tehran refuses to halt its alleged weapons programme.

In the most explicit threat yet by a member of Ehud Olmert’s government, Shaul Mofaz, a deputy prime minister, said the hardline Iranian president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, “would disappear before Israel does”.

“If Iran continues with its programme for developing nuclear weapons, we will attack it. The sanctions are ineffective,” Mofaz, who is also Israel’s transport minister, said in comments published [Friday] by the Yedioth Ahronoth newspaper.

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By cyrena, June 10, 2008 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

Nahida and Nabih,

I’m glad to hear from you both, but you already know that, so I’ll be brief, because I can always look for you and link to the site you’ve provided.

I wanted to let you know that Non Credo is most likely still here among us, posting under a different name. Since I can only ‘guess’ myself who that would be, I’m not going to speculate out loud. Actually, even if I *KNEW* for certain, I wouldn’t.

My own attitude at this point is that we just all gotta do what we gotta do, to keep the truth at a visible surface. Whatever it takes…ya know?

And yes..there IS deceit, mayhem, treachery and perfidy swarming all about. Better to be aware of it, and on the lookout for it at all times. Know how to identify it when you see it.

Oh…lastly. I would refer you both to Truthout.org again, though I know I’ve mentioned that site multiple times in the past. (It was actually the first of such websites that I began reading over 5 years ago.

They have recently revamped/redesigned the site, and so there are still bugs to work out with it, and some getting used to for long term readers who were accostomed to the old format. But, I said that to say that they do have a mechanism for comments now, that they didn’t have before.

Words in advance..it is a MODERATED forum, in the sense that it is CONSTANTLY moderated. So, if you post a comment, it takes it a bit to appear. Now, that’s just their policy, and it’s their site, so I don’t have an issue with that. Others may. But so far, there doesn’t seem to be any real ‘censorship’ based on the political content of any remarks. In other words, they most likely moderate for troll activity, and obvious crazies. Comments that are likely to INCITE!

Again, I don’t have any personal ‘civil rights’ issues with that, because I believe that publishers and the media in general, have a responsibility to AVOID putting propaganda out there, just as they have a responsibility to publish the truth. So, that’s just a head’s up with the truthout.org comment policy, but I think you’ll apprecciate it, once you can navigate it. It took me a while, because I discovered that I couldn’t comment with my internet explorer browser. (they comments just weren’t going anywhere when I clicked the post button). And, I could tell some other things weren’t working properly with the site either. So, I switched over to my firefox brower, and it works fine with that.

Best,
Cyrena

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By nahida, June 10, 2008 at 12:50 am Link to this comment

Dear Nabih

Thank you for letting me know this, this is very enlightening indeed

I have also been banned from posting on the Guardian (Comment is Free) and also on Common Dreams, where they have actually deleted EVERY single post of mine

But, do not be disheartened, all this is not all bad

It’s revealing, it’s better to uncover the ugly face of the enemy, specially the one who hides behind the slogans of anti war and progressiveness

I am still able to post on some other websites, which I hope won’t be bought or hacked by zion

On common dream, All my comments and poems also have been deleted

Obviously, I have posted many pictures along with my comments and poems, and if the problem was in posting pictures.

Of course, I could’ve found some excuse for CD editor/s, if they’d emailed me and told me that posting pictures is not allowed on the site, if they had asked me not to break whatever rules they have, or if they had deleted my posts that contained pictures only.

But evidently, this is not what happened; EVERY SINGLE POST of mine was “ethnically cleansed”

I am trying my best to spread the word before they clamp down on our freedom

I am only a faint voice speaking for the oppressed Palestinians and the dehumanised Muslims specially the misrepresented and seldom heard Muslim women

I am not allowed to have a voice EVEN by the so called “progressives”!

You can check and verify; this is only one of the articles that I posted on:

Iraqi Father Seeks Blackwater Apology
Published on Wednesday, May 28, 2008,
by Mike Lanchin and Mona Mahmoud


Many will attempt to suppress my freedom of expression or stop me from reaching out; but all they can do is some pathetic censorship in their domains

Silencing me they will NEVER achieve

If any of you are interested in reading more of what a Palestinian Muslim woman has to say, you can find me elsewhere; as I already contribute to numerous sites, and I also have my own blog (poetry for Palestine)

A final note:

There is a lot of mayhem and deceit around; even within the circles of so called liberals and progressives, so:

Please be vigilant in your search for truth

Please be careful and question everything you read and hear

May you be guided to find the truth, see it as truth and follow

May you see the falsehood, as false and reject

May all your good efforts to make our world a better place, be blessed

May your dreams of peace and justice come true


Kindest regards and Salam

nahida the exiled Palestinian

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By Nabih Ammari, June 9, 2008 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dear nahida,

Although I hate to post any post on TD since Non Credo
has been banned,I have find myself compelled to do so just to alert you to the fact that every link you have
listed on this thread has been blocked by INTEGRITY ON LINE.I think that you have been censored because,like Non Credo,you have been very effective with the content of the posts you post.Therefore,I think that you are wasting time and energy posting on TD.You may wish to try Hoffington Post’s website.

I do hope that you read this before the Hackers
delete it.

New Subject:Uri Avnery of Gosh Sholom of Israel has
an interesting article posted on Counter Punch’s website.It is really worth the time reading.

Yours very truly.
Nabih Ammari

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By Howard, June 9, 2008 at 5:59 am Link to this comment

Ah,  lovely Iran…

“Hizbullah was set up, established, trained, armed, financed…wholly by Iran,” said Paul Salem at the Carnegie Endowment think tank in Beirut. He says Hizbullah has 50,000 salaried employees and “a large modern army” - most of whom are paid with money from Tehran. “For Iran it’s like an aircraft carrier. The U.S. parks aircraft carriers in the Gulf next to Iran; Iran parks its own aircraft carrier in Lebanon - Hizbullah - which can wreak great destruction on Israel at a moment’s notice.”
  “The Iranian drive to gain more influence in Lebanon is to give them a direct influence without having to go through Syria,” said Oussama Safa, director of the Lebanon Center for Policy Studies. “That’s possibly in preparation for an eventual peace deal between Syria and Israel.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7438553.stm

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By troublesum, June 8, 2008 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

Patrick Henry 337PM
One of the survivors of the attack on the Liberty is from my home state and for 20 years everyone in our congressional delegation has refused to meet with him or to even talk to him.  Congress, both House and Senate, is owned by Israel.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 8, 2008 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

http://thebeerdoctor.newscloud.com

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By Robert, June 8, 2008 at 8:53 pm Link to this comment

On the Future of Israel and Palestine
An Interview with Ilan Pappé and Noam Chomsky

By FRANK BARAT

“Barat: Thanks for accepting this interview. Firstly I would like to ask if you are working on something at the moment that you would like to let us know about?

Ilan Pappé: I am completing several books. The first is a concise history of the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the other is on the Palestinian minority in Israel and one on the Arab Jews. I am completing an edited volume comparing the South Africa situation to that of Palestine

Noam Chomsky: The usual range of articles, talks, etc.  No time for major projects right now.

Barat: A British M.P recently said that he had felt a change in the last 5 years regarding Israel. British M.Ps nowadays sign E.D.M (Early Day Motions) condemning Israel in bigger number than ever before and he told us that it was now easier to express criticism towards Israel even when talking on U.S campuses.

Also, in the last few weeks, John Dugard, independent investigator on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for the U.N Human Right Council said that “Palestinian terror ‘inevitable’ result of occupation”, the European parliament adopted a resolution saying that “policy of isolation of the Gaza strip has failed at both the political and humanitarian level” and the U.N and the E.U have condemned Israel use of excessive and disproportionate force in the Gaza strip.

Could we interpret that as a general shift in attitude towards Israel?

Ilan Pappé: The two examples indicate a significant shift in public opinion and in the civil society. However, the problem remained what it had been in the last sixty years: these impulses and energies are not translated, and are not likely to be translated in the near future, into actual policies on the ground.  And thus the only way of enhancing this transition from support from below to actual policies is by developing the idea of sanctions and boycott.  This can give a clear orientation and direction to the many individuals and ngos that have shown for years solidarity with the Palestine cause.

Noam Chomsky: There has been a very clear shift in recent years.  On US campuses and with general audiences as well.  It was not long ago that police protection was a standard feature of talks at all critical of Israeli policies, meetings were broken up, audiences very hostile and abusive.  By now it is sharply different, with scattered exceptions.  Apologists for Israeli violence now tend often to be defensive and desperate, rather than arrogant and overbearing.  But the critique of Israeli actions is thin, because the basic facts are systematically suppressed.  That is particularly true of the decisive US role in barring diplomatic options, undermining democracy, and supporting Israel’s systematic program of undermining the possibility for an eventual political settlement.  But portrayal of the US as an “honest broker,” somehow unable to pursue its benign objectives, is characteristic, not only in this domain.”

========================================

Click on the URL to read the rest of the interview:

http://www.counterpunch.org/barat06062008.html

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By THE MANGEMEISTER, June 8, 2008 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry exactly right!I’m glad you see the connection.

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By PatrickHenry, June 8, 2008 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

41 years ago today.

http://www.wingtv.net/documentaries.html

I as an American wish there was some way I could kick that little shit stain of a country Israel in the ass for this.  One day.

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By cyrena, June 8, 2008 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

Here’s the deal beerdoc, for whatever it might be worth.

You can whimper and pick up your jacks and go home, but let’s just call a spade a spade.

For weeks and weeks you’ve been on a concerted “Barack Attack”. You’ve managed to assail him, (and by extension anyone who has displayed any support for him) on everything from A to Z and back again. A few of your criticisms may in fact have been legitimate criticisms, because I’m sure we can all find an opinion or a position of his that we don’t personally agree with. However, YOUR criticisms – many of them, have been totally ludicrous on their face, and can only lead a reasonable person to believe that you have other motivations behind your attacks.

I’ve said before, that I cannot know what your personal biases are or what your clear animosity is based on. Nor do I care. However, by displaying those complaints that have no legitimate basis, it means that you lose all credibility when you DO have a legitimate criticism.

It also has led you to attack others (specifically me) either explicitly or implicitly, and I don’t allow myself to be abused by ANYONE..verbally or otherwise. I’m always happy to engage in reasoned argument/debate, because reasonable can become informed from such dialogue. But when you come up with stuff like:

“make no mistake, BHO WILL bomb Iran.” Or..”he’s NOT going to end the war in Iraq” or..”he’s throwing people out of public housing if they are convicted of crimes”, (drug related in your example),

and other equally ridiculous accusations that you cannot back up, and never do,  then who’s going to bother paying any attention to that after a while? And then you attack anyone who questions your absurd accusations, just to wonder where you come up with some of this stuff, by accusing THEM of being part of a cult, and/or falling victim to some ‘snowjob’ put over on them by Barack Obama. In other words, WE’RE all just stupid and somehow ‘starry-eyed’ for believing anything he says, or in the mission behind his movement/platform, which promises to work for a way to change the disaster that we have become as a nation.

Never mind that we can and DO not only listen to what he’s saying, but can also WATCH and see, and observe what he’s already done, and continues to do, IN THAT VERY EFFORT. Never mind any of that, because we’re all just stupid. We don’t know how to check his record, or make our own analysis of anything. We must just all be stupid and under some hypnotic trance.

Well, you’ve made THOSE accusations and directed THOSE insults to at least ONE person (probably far more) who take offense to it. And when we respond, initially as respectfully as possible, you just keep up the insults. Well here’s some really old school wisdom for you: Even a dog is eventually going to bite you back after so many hits.

Again, I don’t know what your REAL issues are with Barack Obama, but it started LONG, LONG before he made this recent speech to AIPAC. So go back to your beerdoctoring, and maybe you’ll figure it out. When you do, there may be others who will be interested in finding that out. I’m not. But there may be others here who are.

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By PatrickHenry, June 8, 2008 at 4:19 pm Link to this comment

Israel is sure some ally.  They make another of a long line of war threats against Iran and what we here in America get is another attack at the pump.

I’m sure their jewish bretheran at Wall street are making out OK though.

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By cyrena, June 8, 2008 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

The Managemeister,

I hope you’re right about Non Credo posting under another name. Something makes me think that lil mamzer may be as well, but I don’t want to suggest any names out loud here, for fear of having my fingers chopped off. (I really need them to do my work).

As for Lefty, he actually DOES pop in from time to time, and I long ago began to appreciate his contributions. I just had to get passed the intial way that the stuff comes across. Quite honestly, I did find him really entertaining. My favorite was his name for Ahmadinejad..

“Imadinnerjacket”.

I swear that tickles me everytime I think about it, so I’m glad you mentioned him. (I could use a laugh about now).

I hope he’s doing well.

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By nefertiti, June 8, 2008 at 2:48 pm Link to this comment

Paolo

Your Post of June 7 at 9:24 am was Brilliant . I liked it very much . thanks .

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By Amon Drool, June 8, 2008 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment

beerdoc..i’ve been at truthdig for about 4 mo’s now.  i’ve always looked forward to reading your posts.  they all seemed to have intelligence, humanity and a good degree of worldly wisdom in them.  if your last post means you’re leaving this site, it will be a loss for us all.  “carpe diem vita brevis” sent me to me to my shorter english oxford dictionary. (hey, i’m rather unedgeamacated)  if you’re choosing to leave us with those as your last words, one can only say what style and grace!  all the best to ya..

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By nahida, June 8, 2008 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment

Israeli woman’s return to Gaza

 
{Yael Kahn is an Israeli who moved to London from Tel Aviv in 1991, because she disagreed with Israeli policies towards Palestinians.


She recently founded the group “Islington friends of Yibna”, to help descendants of Palestinians who fled their village of Yibna in 1948 and settled in a refugee camp in Gaza.

When Gaza’s border fence with Egypt was pulled down in January this year - she decided to visit Gaza. She explains why - and what she found.}

read the rest here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7432110.stm


and her website:

http://thehollytree.blogspot.com/2007/09/islington-friends-of-yibna.html

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By johnnyguy, June 8, 2008 at 10:17 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Canaan was promised to Abraham and his son Isaac, and the descendants of Isaac became Israel.
Why should Israel have to give back the land that was lost during their captivity?

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By Blackspeare, June 8, 2008 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Rhetoric or rash——with the Israelis you can never be sure.  Though a decisive strike against Iran would be favored by the Israeli right wing and should it come to that the impact on the world would be quite interesting.  Think gasoline prices are high now——combine that with shortages, long lines, and a looming recession and you got enough stuff there for an entire convention.

Though Israel is beating a war drum, Iran knows that it is likely that BHO will be the next POTUS and they would be in a much better bargaining position especially since BHO would present a more even hand in dealing with the ME.  So until that time, Iran will let Israel rant and rave while they wait for BHO.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 8, 2008 at 8:53 am Link to this comment

Yes cyrena, I am truly sorry that my “animosity and hate filled ranting” disturbed you even if it wasn’t personal. I just got angry that is all.
As far as being hate-filled, do you really believe that, or were you also angry?
Anyway, your non personal assessment of me, has convinced me that I am no longer welcome here. Carpe deim vita brevis.

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By Ed Harges, June 8, 2008 at 8:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

in answer to By Rus7355, June 8 at 4:39 am #:

Rus writes:

“What’s missing is that it’s not the Israeli’s and United States applying pressure. It’s Britain, Germany, Italy, France, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, the UAE, Australia, Canada and the United States and Israel, etc. etc….”

Rus, your list of supposed supporters of the US-Israel campaign against Iran is as phony as Bush’s “coalition of the willing”, which was transparently a “coalition of the bribed and threatened.”

Even granting, for the sake of argument, that the list is accurate, it’s hardly persuasive.

Why? Because everyone can plainly see that these other countries besides the US and Israel have only chimed in under pressure from US-rael, because they are afraid of what crazy and murderous things the US and Israel will do. Some of these countries (such as France) also have powerful Jewish pro-Israel lobbies similar to ours, which play a similar role in distorting foreign policy for Israel’s benefit and policing political debate by use of the “anti-Semite” smear.

The rest of the world is not afraid of what Iran will do. Everyone knows that Iran doesn’t have a nuclear weapons program, and wouldn’t launch a first strike even if it ever did get nuclear weapons. Even Israeli officials themselves admit privately that they believe Iran would never launch a suicidal nuclear first strike against Israel, and that Iran is — at the soonest — many years from acquiring such weapons.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 8, 2008 at 8:27 am Link to this comment

Why bother?

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By Leefeller, June 8, 2008 at 8:25 am Link to this comment

Okay after reading troublesome’s link,  the Obama one did not work. From whit I get out of the whole thing, is their is more hate to go around and my disappointment is Obama is pandering for votes, lets face it the Nazi’s and KKK will not vote for Obama. So he is trying else where.

Our country’s meddling in world affairs has only been to our own detriment in the world and especially here at home in many, many things that need attention.  Our selected leaders have been dumping our money down rat holes for ages now, the people making the big bucks is not us.

Hate is the tool which makes all this crap keep coming to the surface, seems peace is not anyplace in the near or far horizon.

Dividing the people and keeping hate going is what it is all about. Keep fostering hate, it works so well for those in power, just attack what you do not understand or want to understand. 

Ignorance is a great starting point and even a excuse for those who know better.

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By cyrena, June 8, 2008 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

No beer doc,

Your animosity and hate-filled ranting doesn’t disturb me *personally*, because my own habit is usually to ignore anyone who has proven to be consistently unreasonable in such a combative manner. Since I DON’T KNOW YOU, this isn’t PERSONAL, so why would I be inclined remain engaged in a dialogue, just to be a scapegoat for a constant slew of insults? I might be a lot of things, but stupid or masochistic aren’t among them.

So no, you didn’t disturb me, but I DID think (in terms of what this public forum is supposed to be about) that it was worth offering an olive branch of sorts to you, because I DO in fact recognize your own concerns as having legitimacy. In other words, like most folks, I deplore the crimes against humanity that Israel has been engaged in for nearly 60 years, and I don’t appreciate that the US has continued to fund Israel with tax payer dollars over a period of nearly the same. Rather, I believe that the international community should have long ago enforced sanctions against Israel, and that the US should have been at the forefront of those efforts.

That is NOT what has happened, and at this point in time, (and specifically since the late 80’s, early 90’s) we find the US government joined at the hip with Israel, in what has become a terrorist operation against the rest of the world. My own linguistic short-hand for this is to simply refer to them as the Terrorist Twins.

Your CONTINUED insults and personal attacks make it clear that you’ve slapped away the olive branch.

•  “..Did you read the Robert Fisk article that I linked to on this site? But I guess the veteran Middle East journalist is engaged in hysterical rhetoric too…”

Actually, there are many in the academic/intellectual community of scholars of the Middle East who DO find Robert Fisk to be somewhat hysterical in his rhetoric. Be that as it may, I personally have made it a point to read MOST of what he has published *OVER THE YEARS*, and I frequently reference his work in MY OWN. His works (books, other publications) take up about 3 ½ feet of shelf space here in my overcrowded work space. So, save the sarcasm. I’ve read and written more on this topic than you’ll ever even begin to imagine.

•  “….As far as providing a link, don’t you have a search engine, or are you just to lazy to use it? Anyway, here it is:..”

More insults here, but that only further proves my point. Yes, my computer is in fact formatted with an internet browser, and I utilize several search engines. However, I’m in the midst of my own work, and to be honest (as I always am) I was never interested in what Barack Obama had to say in an address to AIPAC. In case you hadn’t notice from earlier posts, I don’t have much regard *MYSELF* for that organization. So it didn’t make a damn bit of difference to me, *personally* whether or not he even addressed them, let alone what he said! I didn’t bother to follow what Hillary Clinton said to them either, and I don’t pay any attention to what McCain discusses with them, even though I’m certain THEY have both been involved in the organization and have delivered speeches to the same for years! (they’re probably honorary or associate members) Barack Obama has been to Israel ONCE, (I believe the year was 2006, though I’d have to double check it) and he specifically wanted to see ‘the wall’ which has been condemned as illegal by a team of 15 international jurists in a 14-1 opinion.

So again, I only thought it would be a gesture of cooperation to read the thing that you were so stirred up about, so that I could know exactly what he said, in order to engage in a reasonable dialoged with you. And, if YOU were providing the link, then I’d know that we were talking about the same speech, and using the same point of reference, as the basis for the discussion.

But, that isn’t really what you want to discuss beerdoc, so I’ll just get back to my own work

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By PatrickHenry, June 8, 2008 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

THE MANGEMEISTER, June 7 at 7:36 pm #

I wholeheartedly agree, even though I don’t agree with most if not all of their viewpoints, I get a laugh on how they try to convince us of their arguements, being chosen and all.

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By troublesum, June 8, 2008 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

Here’s the offcial Palestinian reacion to Obama’s AIPAC speech.  Obama is to the right of the Bush administration on the issue of Jeruselem.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/990490.html

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By thebeerdoctor, June 8, 2008 at 1:14 am Link to this comment

I am sorry but none of these links work (I wonder why?) The best way to read Obama’s speech is to just put into Google: barack obama’s aipac speech, and you will find it, both the npr transcript and the one from his campaign site.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 8, 2008 at 1:07 am Link to this comment

Excuse me, but the stupid NPR link no longer works, try this one instead: http://www.barackobama.com/2008/06/04/remarks_of_senator_barack_obam-74.php

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By thebeerdoctor, June 8, 2008 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

Well cyrena, I must be doing something right if my little hysterical rantings disturb you. And what is the ultimate problem? That in my hysterical opinion, Barry Obama is just as full of nonsense as the rest? Did you read the Robert Fisk article that I linked to on this site? But I guess the veteran Middle East journalist is engaged in hysterical rhetoric too.
It seems you keep operating under the assumption I am taking it all out of context. Believe me, no one more than myself wishes that were true. As far as the “just sitting around bitching about it” as you so delicately put it; well I have been sending my objections to the Obama campaign ever since I read that sorry piece of trash, disguised as a speech.
As far as providing a link, don’t you have a search engine, or are you just to lazy to use it? Anyway, here it is:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?stoyld=91150432

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By yours trulyj, June 7, 2008 at 10:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Obama’s pandering to AIPAC was a mistake.  Why?  Because if he’s to be a catalyst for a peaceful resolution to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, he best keep an open mind.  Otherwise?  Forget it.

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By THE MANGEMEISTER, June 7, 2008 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena and Nahida I don’t believe Non Credo’s gone I think he or she are posting under a different name.Speaking of banning I hope Lefty and Lil mamzer have not been banned as they were always good for a laugh.Now we are just stuck with Howard’s same old stuff.

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By Louise, June 7, 2008 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

By troublesum, June 6 at 6:38 pm #

“Evil people?  Its a little more complicated.”

~~~

I disagree. It isn’t complicated at all. In fact it’s really very simple.

“The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.”
George Orwell

“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavour to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.”
Abraham Lincoln

“The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson.”
Franklin D. Roosevelt

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power.” :
Benito Mussolini

“I’m often amazed at the way politicians, who spend hours poring over opinion poll results in a desperate attempt to discover what the public thinks, are certain they know precisely what God’s views are on everything.”
Simon Hoggart

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”
John Kenneth Galbraith

“The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.”
Frank Kent

“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie—deliberate, contrived and dishonest—but the myth—persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.”
J.F. Kennedy.

“Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.”
Haile Selassie

“The world is a dangerous place to live, not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.”
Albert Einstein

“A rooster crows only when it sees the light. Put him in the dark and he’ll never crow. I have seen the light and I’m crowing.”
Muhammad Ali (born Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr.)

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By Leefeller, June 7, 2008 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

It is interesting over the last year or so on TD I have seen posters who I agreed with and ones I do or did not at the time.  My opinions change with information, hopefully the true information. 

Truth is like a bottle with a note bobbing in the ocean, very few of us ever see the note never the less the bottle.

If posters have agenda’s, why is that so bad?  Guess I will miss Non Credo, sometimes he provided enlightenment.  Mid Mike City is another poster I miss, only because we disagreed on religion and still appreciated each other after a lot of discussion.  Do not know if something happened to Mid Mike City or he was banned?  Hope you are well Mid Mike City.  ( He became very upset with some of the Clinton Posters, I suspect they complained).

If all of a sudden I do not appear on TD, either I have been banned or was struck by a meteor, anyway,  thanks for being here.

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By Ostrogoth, June 7, 2008 at 6:41 pm Link to this comment

Cyrena, thanks for caring! smile

Anyone know exactly why Non Credo got banned?

Common Dreams has been deleting all posts containing HTML markup language, and many CD posters thought their comments were being censored. From what I’ve heard, the deletions there have been unrelated to content.

Which doesn’t mean that there isn’t a vast right-wing conspiracy out there to hack or otherwise cause grief for forums like TD and CD, haha. Should be easy enough to verify by contacting the forum moderators.

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By cyrena, June 7, 2008 at 6:24 pm Link to this comment

BeerDoctor,

I have not yet read the entire speech as delivered by Barack Obama at the AIPAC conference, so my own comments ON THAT SPEECH, have been restricted to the portions quoted on this site. If you or anyone else has a link to a transcript of that speech, I’ve set aside time to read it, so that I can be crystal clear on whatever it is that you’re so stirred up about.

However, I’m not inclined to indulge in an emotional or rhetoric based pissing contest with you or anyone else. You can (if you choose, and it seems that you have) continue to twist my own words around or take them out of context to the larger points, but there is nothing to be gained from that – at least not that I can comprehend. I can’t comprehend how it promotes any advantages for YOU personally, or for the larger conversation that takes place on these forums.

So let’s be really clear here, for the purposes of reasoned and productive dialogue. I am inclined toward OBJECTIVITY. That is NOT to suggest that we shouldn’t all have opinions, and be willing and able to articulate them, and to have them respected. We can even ‘judge’, based on whatever facts are in evidence. We can even come to different interpretations of the same facts. But to accomplish anything at all, we have to at least agree to what are actually the facts, and what is pure emotionalism, based on individual biases.

Individual biases are part of the package, and so they cannot be disregarded, but they DO have to be ‘figured in’, or otherwise accounted for, or the results are gonna be skewed. Language is important, and so is a measure of honesty. Flinging accusations and making assumptions with irresponsible language is another waste of time. Indulging in that only distorts the basic premise.

I am certain that I will find much of my own to criticize in whatever this speech is. I’ve said before that in my OWN opinion, there was no reason for Obama to even address AIPAC. But, that is my OWN opinion, and I’m not running for president or any other elected position.

Other politicians have made those same choices with other groups and organizations. For instance, George Bush has NEVER accepted an invitation to address the NAACP. (at least not to my knowledge). Now that organization is a very old special interest organization that has done some important work in this country. His ‘snubbing’ of them was by all means noted. In short, it pissed them off. The message was very clear: He didn’t give a shit about any of the interests/concerns of African-Americans in this country. Now of course that’s not a surprise, but it’s also very bad form for any politician to blatantly and disdainfully ignore the interests or concerns of ANY group of Americans, large or small. DO YOU GET MY POINT?

So please, send me the speech. And, if you happen to know what other candidates have said in similar addresses to AIPAC, that might be helpful as well, since the point of all of this discussion has been to evaluate these candidates in terms of their positions on all of the issues concerning the citizens of THIS country, as well as their positions on foreign policy in the globalized environment of the 21st Century.

Then maybe we can have an informative exchange of discourse, based on those realities, and what Obama has actually said, and done. But if you tell us that he has no intention of stopping the US assault on Iraq, I’m likely to blow that off as more hyper rhetoric, because there’s no basis for you to suggest that. NONE. The same goes with your claims that he will attack Iran. Again, that TOO sounds like biased hysteria, and is an antithesis to anything he’s ever said. And your claims that he has CONDONED/PROMOTED the atrocities of Israel are WAY beyond the pale.

So, it would be helpful to have discussion based on the realities and their context.

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By cyrena, June 7, 2008 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

“cyrena With regards to the banning of Non Credo, I think that many of the so called progressive sites are either hacked into or bought by Zionists”….” Therefore, we need to persist and keep finding new avenues and platforms; we are indeed fighting a cyber war against decades of lies and deceit.”

Nahida,
I’m convinced of the same thing…specifically that many of these sites are HACKED into..by Zionists and trolls. We know that we’ve experienced more than a few of them here on TD. And, they usually become very OBVIOUS, either sooner or later. I also agree that you’re right about the panic now, because with the availability of the Internet, it has become too difficult to squash the truth. Something that was always been so much easier to accomplish by MSM, which is the same as State sponsored propaganda. They TOTALLY control the message, and have for decades!! 

So, the Internet has certainly advanced the process for getting the truth out there, and that’s good. At the same time however, it can ALSO be used as a tool for the perpetration of propaganda by the Zionists or ANY OTHER FASCIST ENTITY! So it’s a mixed blessing, but I’d still rather have it than not. If nothing more, it forces some to utilize their own brains, instead of just believing what has been force-fed through the institutions as well as the state propaganda machines. It SHOULD force intelligent people to question things for themselves, when they begin to read or hear these competing accounts of ANYTHING. In other words, it should prompt intelligent people to say to themselves, “Ok, who is actually telling the truth here”, and to question things from a common sense perspective.

I was unaware of you hassles with Common Dreams, since I don’t frequent that site as much as I do this one or the relatively few others. Truthout.org has been my primary source for Alternative/progressive media for over 5 years now, but they’ve only just recently added a comment function to it. (they used to have a ‘Town Hall forum that apparently got to be too much to deal with). But, I said that to say that the experiences you have related with Common Dreams are nearly identical to what I went through about a year ago, here on Truthdig, and I eventually learned that it was prompted by another poster or two. (those who don’t like having these truths exposed). Apparently, the staff at TD eventually figured that out, and so my ‘banning’ was lifted. That has not prevented multiple PERSONAL ATTACKS from being directed at me. For the most part, I don’t allow them to dissuade me, because I’ve learned that there are more reasonable folks than there are the crazies. In other words, (and I’ve said this before) most reasonable adults can police themselves on these forums.

So, don’t allow yourself to be dissuaded either. I’ve mentioned on a couple of other threads since the stir-up with Non Credo’s banning, (and other deleted posts from regular posters) that I had long ago decided to set-up a site myself, and the ‘skeleton’ of it is finally done. Needless to say though, there is a great deal of work and time involved in maintaining those, and I’ve not had that time yet, because of other commitments. I will let you know though, when I’ve been able to put it in motion. i.Q. recently mentioned putting the same thing in operation, and there are a few other posters here, who also maintain excellent sites.
Meantime, PLEASE continue your own excellent contributions. They are greatly appreciated by many of us. I’ve gained a great deal of knowledge and resources from them, that I wouldn’t otherwise have found on my own, if only because of time constraints.

The truth SHALL prevail!

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By cyrena, June 7, 2008 at 3:35 pm Link to this comment

Paolo,
This is a DELIGHTFUL post! Way better than my garden fertilizer analogy. Definitely a keeper! Thanks!

“…“But,” your neighbors plead with you, “We can’t prove a negative. The burden of proof lies with you, who assert the positive.”

•  “That’s just a lot of reality-based thinking,” you mutter….

Care to finish the parable?..”

*****

It’s all of that ‘reality-based thinking’. What a bother, eh? wink

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By cyrena, June 7, 2008 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

Ostrogoth, I care. But, I knew what you meant the first time anyway. wink

Still, thanks for the correction.

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By Ostrogoth, June 7, 2008 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment

Whoa, sorry, I omitted a word in the last sentence of my 12:44 pm post, which should read: “Israeli territorial expansion would be a rational goal from the Zionists’ perspective, if the available means weren’t totally suicidal.” Makes more sense now. Not that anyone cares, haha

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By Allan J Krueger, June 7, 2008 at 2:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We have blindly supported Israel for decades and I would like to remind them (as people tirelessly want to remind blacks and others) that their mistreatment was a long, long, long time ago… AND all of this nonsense about territory that was given to them in the bible is drivel! Enough blood for land and oil and…! It is time we tell Israel to COOL IT or fight your own war!

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By Ostrogoth, June 7, 2008 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment

Blackspeare: I don’t see how the US, overstretched militarily and bankrupt as it is, can “neutralize” Iran without using nuclear weapons and murdering millions of innocent civilians. Nuking Iran will not make the oil market responsive to the world’s needs, but could very easily turn into WWIII, as well as making our leaders even more indictable as war criminals than they already are, assuming we lose—the most likely outcome. Way I see it, if Israel attacks Iran, it won’t be for oil, but to eliminate Iran’s capacity to obstruct Zionist expansion.

The bottom line is that such an attack is strictly irrational from the standpoint of US national interests. Israeli territorial expansion would a rational goal from the Zionists’ perspective, if the available means weren’t totally suicidal.

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By msgmi, June 7, 2008 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Looks like Deputy Defense Minister Mofaz has started the drumbeat for a strike in the Middle East. No doubt all those in favor of a strike on Iran will say that it is the last resort for peace. The hawks on both sides of the Atlantic know that GW and the neoCONS can be counted on without question.

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By Ed harges, June 7, 2008 at 1:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Blackspeare writes: “Once Iran is neutralized militarily, the ME will be secured under an US/Israeli aegis.”

Blackspeare, this is Truthdig. We read. We know stuff. You can’t hand us this malarky and expect it to persuade.

The only reason there “must” be a military confrontation with Iran is because Israel’s supporters, who control the US government, insist on it.

Were we not forced by Israel to maintain irresolvably hostile relations with Iran, we could work this out peacefully, allowing Iran to enrich uranium as the NPT gives it the right to do, with continuing inspections and other safeguards. With that arranged, we could easily have good relations with Iran, including perfectly satisfactory and profitable access to oil.

We don’t need Israel AT ALL. Israel is not our ally, helping us to “deal with” Iran. Israel is a greedy, controlling succubus, feeding on our blood and treasure, FORCING US to go to war for its own aggrandizement when, considering our own interests properly, we needn’t. In fact, it’s likely to be economic suicide for us.

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By Blackspeare, June 7, 2008 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

Arabs, Israelis, Palestinians, Syrians, Egyptians, Persians, whatever——all caught up in a part of the world that is today economically critical.  As they say it’s all about the oil.  When you look at the big picture the only nation standing in the way of a US/Israeli hegemony in the ME is Iran.  Iraq, once a powerful force in the ME has been neutralized mainly because of the folly of it’s former leader and deceit and treachery on the part of the US in dealing with SH.  Once Iran is neutralized militarily, the ME will be secured under an US/Israeli aegis and the oil market will become responsive to the world’s needs.  The other members of OPEC are weak and will kowtow to Saudi and other members beholden to the US.  Yes, Iran is toast one way or the other.  Oh, did I forget to mention the War on Terrorism?

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2008 at 11:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

from By thebeerdoctor, June 7 at 8:15 am:

“I really enjoy watching the folks who claim I blame it all on Obama for United States foreign policy….”
————-

Beerdoctor, I think you’re attacking a straw man here. I haven’t noticed anyone here blaming Obama for the policy itself, as though it originated with him.

But we are disappointed, exactly as you are — in fact angry, many of us — that he has promised to continue it.

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By SlimTim, June 7, 2008 at 11:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh NIE, we’ve already forgot ye. You charged in so persuasively and shouted “, Here, here, they’ve haulted their nuclear (energy) activities in 2003.” Sorry you couldn’t do more for what you were.

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By thebeerdoctor, June 7, 2008 at 11:06 am Link to this comment

I love the word pragmatic. Much of the excuses made for politicians uses that word. When someone’s preferred candidate presents a lying sack of nothing, they will say “he is being a statesman”. When they pander completely, they will say he or she “had to do it in order to be elected”. Meanwhile, the suffering that is inflicted so unnecessarily continues unabated. Suffering that the candidates could help end, if they were not so cowardly and told the truth.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/fisk/robert-fisk-the-wests-weapon-of-selfdelusion-842117.html

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By Paolo, June 7, 2008 at 10:24 am Link to this comment

Let’s say you had a neighbor you didn’t like. You want him out of the neighborhood. If he dropped dead, you wouldn’t complain either. You own ten shotguns, a hundred hand grenades, a helicopter, and six machine guns.

The neighbor you don’t like has none of these. But this doesn’t deter you. You claim he owns a shotgun, and is planning to invade your home and shoot you.

You tell your other neighbors, “we must take preventive action against this neighbor whom I don’t like! We must invade his home and disarm him.”

Your other neighbors scratch their heads and say, “what evidence do you have?”

You answer: “I can’t show you my evidence! You have to take my word on it! Don’t you think I’m honest and trustworthy?”

Your neighbors, trying to keep the peace, knock on the door of the neighbor you don’t like. He answers the door. They present the accusations you have made against him.

“Gosh, no!” says the neighbor whom you dislike. “I’ve never had a weapon in my life.”

“But your accuser says you do. And furthermore, he says you are planning to attack him.”

“Listen—let’s get over this silly misunderstanding. Even though I don’t have to do this, I’ll let you guys come inside and check out my place.”

Your neighbors do this, and find ZERO EVIDENCE that your neighbor owns any weapon whatsoever.

“But he has PLANS to acquire shotguns!” you answer. “I guarantee it! Don’t you believe me? Don’t you think I’m trustworthy?”

Your neighbors scratch their heads, trying desperately to think of some nice way of telling you that you are a blithering nitwit, and dangerous, to boot. They’re also a little intimidated, seeing you have all those shotguns, hand grenades, and automatic weapons.

“You have to prove your case,” they tell you, “before we can take any action.”

“Oh, yeah?” you reply. “Prove to me that he DOESN’T have plans to acquire a shotgun.”

“But,” your neighbors plead with you, “We can’t prove a negative. The burden of proof lies with you, who assert the positive.”

“That’s just a lot of reality-based thinking,” you mutter….

Care to finish the parable?

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2008 at 9:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Notice that Agence France Presse (AFP) gives us the proper headline about the oil price spike:

“Oil surges to new heights after Israeli warning on Iran”

Outside of the U.S., the press is not afraid to headline the obvious: there is a direct connection between these wars for Israel and the economic meltdown we are all enduring.

But our Zionist-muzzled press buries and underplays this: because it’s not “good for Israel”, the Holy State.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hkLCJIKdipOHqJ8bwdjN1JUZSFtA

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By thebeerdoctor, June 7, 2008 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

I really enjoy watching the folks who claim I blame it all on Obama for United States foreign policy. No, I do not blame him for what happened before, I blame him for promoting it to continue. (I’ve send e-mails to his campaign, as if that mattered.) Make excuses all you want, but if you really believe he will end the war in Iraq, think again, or perhaps, think for the first time. Remember what he said: “Whoever threatens Israel threatens us.”
That is not change we can believe in, that is not change at all.

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By dick, June 7, 2008 at 9:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The power elite want more war, are subservient to Israel and are in control. The masses have no influence. More wars it shall be.

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By cyrena, June 7, 2008 at 7:52 am Link to this comment

Well beerdoctor,

Not to disappoint or otherwise depress you even further, the writings of Rachel Corrie, poignant as they are for such a very young woman who met such a horrible fate, are actually one a several thousand of the same…documenting the same atrocities that have been on-going for over 40 years.

Call it whatever you want..ethnic cleansing, (the perpetrators of genocide somehow think that ‘sounds better’ because of the legal technicalities involved) or call it what it is..slow genocide, or call it crimes against humanity, or call it the Arab/Muslim Holocaust. Yep, apartheid fits as well.

You can call it ALL of those things, as long as you keep in mind that it’s been a practice of the “State of Israel” since 1948. And despite ALL the LAWS, of ALL the lands, Israel has yet to be called to account for any of it.

Let us know how we can help you fix that all up, because there are a several hundred thousand of us that have been working on it, to little avail…and specifically in respect to the longest running of them, which has been the Terrorist Reign of Israel, since 1948.

And there has also been, and continue to be Rwanda, Sudan/Darfur, Bosnia, Somalia, Guatemala, Chile, Columbia, Cambodia, and the Falun Gong in China. All are genocides; all being failures of the world to call them by the correct name, and to prevent and/or punish.

The US has ASSISTED in MOST of the above. The US did then, (and still does) train the perpetrators of the torture that has been used in the genocides of most of the South American nations. The US assisted in the overthrow of Allende in Chile, to put Pinochet in his long term terror reign. The US Pentagon supplied weapons and manpower during the Rwanda atrocities, (Clinton’s reign) and that has only recently been exposed. And let’s not forget when Regan supplied both the Contras and Iran with weapons.

So, if you’re really into this stuff…there’s more where Rachel Corrie’s writings came from. You might not be so interested in those genocides though, since even you could find it difficult to blame them ALL on Barack Obama.

As for the ‘blackout’ in the news..that may be true of the US news. But, for anybody who really wants to know about these atrocities, there’s information everywhere.

Somehow, the hundreds of thousands of people involved with Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Internaional Red Cross,and a few thousand OTHER similar groups have been aware of these atrocities for as long as they’ve been occurring.

And, THEY’VE actually done more than sit back and bitch about it.

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By PatrickHenry, June 7, 2008 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

Post by By jatihoon, June 7 at 5:48 am #

Sweet!

I don’t profess any proactive violence unless provoked, something Iran has failed to do.

In the big karma, irony usually burns those bully nations like Israel in the ass.  I don’t want America to get caught up in another immoral, unjustified war that only serves those who wish to take away my constitutional rights to sooth their paranoia.

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By jatihoon, June 7, 2008 at 6:48 am Link to this comment

Mad dogs or attack dogs of Israel.Look Mr Shaul Mofaz ,“Iranian born, Israeli bred of jewish faith, bitten by Israeli politcs, asking for annihilation of both the countries, Iran and Israel. He belives, “both countries must die, so others can live in peace. A true Patriot.

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2008 at 6:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I knew the AIPAC conference would do it. Obama has totally sold out to these creeps. Now we’re left with the one last “hope”: that he’s lying and will simply betray the Israel lobby if elected. But what kind of hope is that? Our best hope is that a bald-faced liar will be our next President?

Anyway, why would he betray them? Everyone knows Israel’s reputation. If a President Obama betrays the greedy, ruthless Israel hawks, after candidate Obama promised them everything, he’d better stay away from grassy knolls, eh?

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By thebeerdoctor, June 7, 2008 at 6:33 am Link to this comment

Despite a nearly total blackout in the news, there is in fact, a United States government sponsored injustice, committed for the supposed sake of Israel. One fact is certain, the Israeli government continues to steal land. Even a former United States President has called it was it is: apartheid.
But to see all the politicians lined up like ducks in a row, at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee’s annual conference, pledging the money and arms of the American people to a foreign entity. If that is not treasonous, I do not know what is. To recently experience a decent feeling for Barack Obama’s remarkable political success, and then to read the transcript of his AIPAC speech, forces me to say: a pox on all their houses. Compare the politicians’ slimy equivocations with the writings of Rachel Corrie, and then perhaps you’ll understand my outrage. Very troubling indeed.

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By troublesum, June 7, 2008 at 4:58 am Link to this comment

It can’t be repeated often enough that Ahmadinejad doesn’t run anything and doesn’t speak for anybody in Iran but himself.

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By Greg Bacon, June 7, 2008 at 4:37 am Link to this comment

Ahmadinejad to ask Bush to step up action against Israel

Tehran /Washington - Iranian President Ahmadinejad will ask President George W Bush Wednesday to step up US and international action against Israel and prepare for a possible military strike against its nuclear facilities, the Tehran Daily reported. Citing “officials close to Ahmadinejad,” the daily said Wednesday the Iranian leader would tell the president that the measures taken so far to stop Israel’s nuclear weapons programme had run their course and had not yielded results.

Iran views Israel as its main existential threat, given Israel’s 200+ nuclear weapons and Israeli President Shimon Peres often-repeated statements that the Iranian state needs to be erased from the map.

Ahmadinejad, speaking Tuesday night to the American-Iranian Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), called Israel “the most serious and imminent threat to global security and stability” and said that “the Israeli threat must be stopped by all possible means.”

“International economic and political sanctions on Israel, as crucial as they may be, are only an initial step, and must be dramatically increased,” he told the AIPAC policy conference in Washington.

Addressing the same conference, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice noted there was a serious debate in both Iran and the US on how to address the threat from Israel.

“This debate, though, should not be about whether we talk to Israel,” she said. “Diplomacy is not a synonym for talking. True diplomacy means structuring a set of incentives and disincentives to produce change in behaviour.”

While the Israeli government was “dangerous,” she said, Israel had vulnerabilities which could and should be exploited.

“America will continue to rally the world to hold Israel accountable,” she said.

“But the world needs to rise to this challenge. Our partners, in Europe and beyond, need to exploit Israel’s vulnerabilities more vigorously and impose greater costs on the regime economically, financially, politically, and diplomatically.”

She added, however, that “a path is open for Israel to improve its relations with the international community and with the United States.”

“If Israel suspends its enrichment and reprocessing activities, and stops its genocidal campaign of ethnic cleansing against the indigenous Palestinians,” she continued, “I will join my UN Security Council colleagues. I will meet with my Israeli counterpart. I’ll do it anytime, anywhere, on any issue.”

Gosh, it sure is fun to make up the news, like CNN and F**.
Maybe I can get hired to write BS pseudo-news for “Wolfie” and “BRITTney” Humes.

Original story available at Earth Times.org

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By A Khokar, June 7, 2008 at 2:15 am Link to this comment

Nuclear war head for all the vulnerable countries like Iran is more of a deterrent than a weapon itself. Nuke is taken as a sure guarantee of security and to maintain a peace with the neighbouring states as well as in the region. For instance Israel, whose neighbours are with out any such weapon but Israel, is armed to its teeth including its nuclear war heads. US pays some 8 billions dollars yearly for the Israel security and her sabre rattling as nuke laden, invincible force in the Middle East. Israel Nuclear programme at Dimona nuclear proliferation plant in the Negev Desert, which was built in 1952 with the help of France, has since developed (as per Israel production rate estimates) some 200 nuclear war heads along with the delivery system vehicles, Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 missiles. Dimona is served by a near by military air base at Niveta Air Base and Uranium geochemistry and fission-track mapping of phosphorite facilities at Zefa field, Zefa. As per Israeli claim these war heads primarily serve her as deterrence but all states in Middle East including Iran are being shunned very vehemently to attain any such capability which may off balance the Israeli deterrence impact.

Why after all, denial of knowledge and restriction of any access to advance technologies to the Arab world in general and suppression of Muslim youth in particular by way of their subjugation and a schematic inhalation (i.e. labelling them terrorists/extremist etc) seem to be the order of the day. On the other hand US lead forces are desperately consolidating their harbouring havens (mega bases in green zone) in Iraq. They are very anxious to mark it a sure success to attain an impetus for further expansions and advances in other enclaves like Iran and beyond;

While US is desperately trying to consolidate its positions in Middle East and trying to secure its foot prints in energy rich Central Asia; but to act as master of future in the area; US need to have very cool thinking.

But Questions arise:-
* Do we still believe living a colonial era of subjugation?
*Do we really believe that research in technology and acquiring of knowledge can be denied and restricted in this ‘21st century, to any one or…especially to the awakened youth in Muslim world, sitting on the mountains of oil wealth and with the world critical economic resources at their disposal?

Knowledge or words of wisdom are bestowed to mankind by the creator…our God. It travels on the wings of winds like a musky fragrance to the people who strive for it… No one has ever been able to harness this flight and the winds?
——————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By A Khokar, June 7, 2008 at 2:13 am Link to this comment

Nuclear war head for all the vulnerable countries like Iran is more of a deterrent than a weapon itself. Nuke is taken as a sure guarantee of security and to maintain a peace with the neighbouring states as well as in the region. For instance Israel, whose neighbours are with out any such weapon but Israel, is armed to its teeth including its nuclear war heads. US pays some 8 billions dollars yearly for the Israel security and her sabre rattling as nuke laden, invincible force in the Middle East. Israel Nuclear programme at Dimona nuclear proliferation plant in the Negev Desert, which was built in 1952 with the help of France, has since developed (as per Israel production rate estimates) some 200 nuclear war heads along with the delivery system vehicles, Jericho-1 and Jericho-2 missiles. Dimona is served by a near by military air base at Niveta Air Base and Uranium geochemistry and fission-track mapping of phosphorite facilities at Zefa field, Zefa. As per Israeli claim these war heads primarily serve her as deterrence but all states in Middle East including Iran are being shunned very vehemently to attain any such capability which may off balance the Israeli deterrence impact.

Why after all, denial of knowledge and restriction of any access to advance technologies to the Arab world in general and suppression of Muslim youth in particular by way of their subjugation and a schematic inhalation (i.e. labelling them terrorists/extremist etc) seem to be the order of the day. On the other hand US lead forces are desperately consolidating their harbouring havens (mega bases in green zone) in Iraq. They are very anxious to mark it a sure success to attain an impetus for further expansions and advances in other enclaves like Iran and beyond;

While US is desperately trying to consolidate its positions in Middle East and trying to secure its foot prints in energy rich Central Asia; but to act as master of future in the area; US need to have very cool thinking.

But Questions arise:-
* Do we still believe living a colonial era of subjugation?
*Do we really believe that research in technology and acquiring of knowledge can be denied and restricted in this ‘21st century, to any one or…especially to the awakened youth in Muslim world, sitting on the mountains of oil wealth and with the world critical economic resources at their disposal?

Knowledge or words of wisdom are bestowed to mankind by the creator…our God. It travels on the wings of winds like a musky fragrance to the people who strive for it… No one has ever been able to harness this flight and the winds?
——————————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By mrmb, June 6, 2008 at 11:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Howard,

You are either ignorant, totally stupid, or as usual just like the rest of your criminal zionist cohorts, think that everyone else is stupid and beholden to you and the entire planet owes you something.

Got news for you. The entire planer is on to you and your kind for the exception of some of our misinformed citizens. And that has changed dramatically thanks to the zionist lobby and their stooges in the various spheres of life in USA.

Do us all a favor and why dont u be a good little citizen and go get the Ahmadinejad quote from his speech from Iranian papers and web sites that has been so deliberately misquotes by the zionist mouth pieces. Maybe u can educate all of us.

Just remember one basic fact. Being good liars, cheaters, thieves, and murderers as the zionists are and having access to all the major tools of propaganda to spew your lies dont make you right. The funny thing is that zionists actually believe the lies they try to feed us 24 hours a day.

Wake up!!!!

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By Ostrogoth, June 6, 2008 at 9:27 pm Link to this comment

Howard’s back with his Zionist cant. The MSM and the Israel lobby continually repeat the Big Lie about Ahmadinejad threatening to wipe Israel off the map as if repetition will make it true. It’s useless to reason with people like Howard because they simply don’t care about the truth. Did Ahmadinejad say that Israel was “about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene”? Maybe. Who cares if he did? It’s not a threat, it’s a prediction, or perhaps a hope, shared by millions, if not billions, who oppose Zionist apartheid and ethnic cleansing. Besides, Ahmadinejad has no control over Iran’s military. The man with control over Iran’s military, Ali Khamenei, has repeatedly said that Iran has no intention of attacking Israel.

A nuclear-armed, predatory Israel, on the other hand, has planned to attack Iran since the Iranians rid themselves of the US stooge and state terrorist, Shah Reza Pahlevi.

Is there anyone on these forums who doesn’t know all this by now?

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By Howard, June 6, 2008 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly called for Israel to be wiped off the map since becoming president. Last Monday, he said Israel was “about to die and will soon be erased from the geographical scene.

Israel has pretty good reasons and experience to believe wackos and nuts who run governments that say they will cause grievious harm to its people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/06/israel.iran

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By troublesum, June 6, 2008 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

Evil people?  Its a little more complicated.

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By Louise, June 6, 2008 at 6:09 pm Link to this comment

troublesum, June 6 at 3:53 pm #

“At what point in time did the descendents of the Jews who suffered and died in Hitler’s concentration camps decide that concentration camps were a good thing?”

They never decided any such thing.  They simply don’t see any connection.

~~~~

Well duh ... that is the puzzle! Thanks for clarifying it. And by the way, the fact that apparently many of them see no correlation indicates a lot of them have the same problem we do. Specifically:

“Unbelievable.

Not that evil men will rule if given the opportunity, but that citizens who should know better will willingly accept their evil!”

~~~~

“... you infer that Israeli Jews must see and feel the same thing you do and therefore in order for it to go on they must either be evil or crazy.”

~~~~

Please don’t put words in my mouth. My observations are echoed by my Israeli friends. I did not say Israelis and Jews are evil. What I did say was:

“Did the “Holocaust” happen? Look around in today’s world and it becomes easy to accept it did. We see something eerily reminiscent of that evil right here, in the twenty first century, in the US and in Israel.”

And then I inferred that governments that want to start unnecessary wars are run by fascists. Well I’ll go one step further. I wont infer it, I’ll say it. It really doesn’t matter what the race or politic. Fascism is what it is, evil. And I repeat;

“... evil men will rule if given the opportunity, [and] citizens who should know better willingly accept their evil!”

Well that pretty well covers any and all who think attacking Iran is as good an idea as attacking Iraq was. Stupidity and indifference are not the exclusive property of Israel. Or even us.

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By PatrickHenry, June 6, 2008 at 6:08 pm Link to this comment

Oil rose over $11.00 due to mideast tensions.

Now who do you think is causing them? 

More PR bullshit.  I hope Iran cleans Israels clock.

If Bush or Obama are stupid enough to enjoin this future war I hope the populace marches on their residence and burns it down.

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By Ostrogoth, June 6, 2008 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment

I haven’t been on this forum for a while. Truthdig banned Non Credo? What for?

Nahida, I saw your message on Common Dreams. It was pretty innocuous. I routinely denounce Zionism and the Israel lobby on CD and my posts have so far gone unmolested.

Abcnews.com banned me the first time I posted in defense of Palestinians, but that was no surprise.

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By jbart, June 6, 2008 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is not a difficult admission, for anyone who has any sense of what occurred in the “holocaust”. It was an example of, supposedly human beings, attempting the “mass” killing of ” a single group of people”. There’s no question, in my eyes, that this horrific series of events had truly ocurred. However, there are a few questions, regarding the scenarios of the “why” it did. History, at least that history that was (presuming the #‘s involved were accurate and “gospel”, so to speak for the purposes of accuracy and reality)what we were concerned with. In my opinion they were “called “on, in that environment, for the adamant persistence in the “supply vs. demand” adherence.  When a “relaxation” of those natural economic forces might have held a perception of ” one is all and all are none”, unfortunately, not the case.  Instead, they (the populace) got the “supply vs. demand ” truism. In an economy, seeking to satisfy it’s “unmakeable” debt payments for WW1, a mercantile area of its society was required to be “on the same page” with a govt seeking a way to prosperity for its people. Instead of that “mercantile” segment becoming “in-line” with their country’s needs, they rather chose to “maximize” the financial situation and “attempt” to maximize the “profit” available. The reaction to this “intolerable” behaviour to its country’s financial woes was, not only lacking in care for the good of all, but amounted to a taking advantage of same. The greed being exibited was, in large part, the rationale used by the ruling class and adopted by the populace for the “extreme” reactions and horrific “actions” taken.  The expression that “those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it” is very much operative today. Israel “pushes” way too hard its agenda. Israel, in doing so, depends on its primary benefactor and protector, to “back” its attitudes. Nice deal, if you can get it!! We, Americans of all religious denominations (and us “invisible atheists”), need to take care of American interests first, and foremost, before we look to assist our allies in their differing agendas. These allies are many, but based on our financial and political assistance levels, Israel is primary. Please vote for all/any politicians that put our interest(s) above any others, including Israel. To lose our benifits to this “irrational” society of “crazies” while dedicating our limited resources to our own people of need would be a major step in our healing as a nation.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2008 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

in reply to By troublesum, June 6 at 3:53 pm #:

You say that the Zionists deny the humanity of the “other”, but I think you are slightly off the mark.

It may sound like an over-subtle distinction, but from my readings and observations, it seems to me that Zionists in fact do believe that non-Jews are people — but they also believe that Jews are better than people.

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By Marc Schlee, June 6, 2008 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

FREE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA


Direct Democracy

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By nahida, June 6, 2008 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

The story of Palestine: photo essay


Schools in palestine:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!2383/

==========================================

Children of Palestine:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!251/

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!120/

=======================================

Gaza, the genocide:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!1880/

====================================
The “liberation” of Muslim women by zionists:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!1628/

==========================================

Ambulances, press and medics: CRIMES against humanity:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!2358/

===========================================

Illegal weapons, WAR CRIMES:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!2025/

===========================================

Life under occupation:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!440/


====================================

Ismail Haniyeh’s home (the Palestinian Prime Minister):

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!2554/

(Compare it with the palaces of other world leaders; you might then understand why such people are much loved, respected and trusted)


================================

Please copy and save and spread the word, we don’t know how or when they will truly clamp down and silence what’s little left of our freedoms

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By troublesum, June 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

“At what point in time did the descendents of the Jews who suffered and died in Hitler’s concentration camps decide that concentration camps were a good thing?”

They never decided any such thing.  They simply don’t see any connection.  They don’t see what they are doing to the Palestinians because the Palestinians are the “other.”  They are in a sense outside the human race as Jews were to the Nazis so they are morally blind to what is going on.  You are horrified by what you see from a distance and you infer that Isreali Jews must see and feel the same thing you do and therefore in order for it to go on they must either be evil or crazy.  It is entirely useless and counterproductive to hate the Isrealis for what they are doing.  They are doing what all human beings do whenever we categorize someone or some group as “other.”  We deny their humanity and then we can do with them as we please.  Everybody does it with their individual, personal enemy.  This conflict is the same thing on a grand scale.  If you hate your personal enemy it always makes you feel stronger if you can get another person to share your hatred.  Having enemies can be a very satisfying thing.  You may not think of harmony and cooperation as desirable.

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By Grousefeather, June 6, 2008 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

We continually hear though the media that Israel is our “staunchest ally”. How is that so? What war has Israel fought side by side with American troops? In what way, and when, has Israel helped or assisted the security of the United States? What was the punishment for Israel deliberately targeting and then bombing and strafing the U.S. Naval vessal Liberty? What was the punishment to Israel for having a spy working in our Pentagon. What’s so damn special about Israel that the U.S. bends over backwards to accomodate them?

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By nahida, June 6, 2008 at 4:38 pm Link to this comment

They have learnt the lesson well from the nazis:

http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/photos/cns!92AA638F9B6EA940!1084/

.

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By nahida, June 6, 2008 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

sorry
this is the right link

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/28/9240/

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By mrmb, June 6, 2008 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Pipes: Iran war definite if Obama wins
Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:29:50

Neoconservative political analyst Daniel Pipes says if a Democratic nominee becomes president, Iran should ‘watch out’ for a US attack.

In an interview with National Review Online, Pipes said in case Democratic nominee-to-be Barack Obama becomes president, President George W. Bush would take matters into his own hands and declare war on Tehran.

“What I suspect will be the case is, should the Democratic nominee win in November, President Bush will do something. And should it be Mr. McCain that wins, he’ll punt, and let McCain decide what to do,” said Pipes.

He called on powers such as Russia and China to prevent a US unilateral strike by helping Washington increase pressure on Tehran.

“Look, if you don’t want an American attack, then you have to join us in being very serious with the Iranians and making clear to them we will attack if they don’t stop.”

The remarks come as Israeli deputy prime minister Shaoul Mofaz claimed that the Israeli regime would attack Iran should the country continue with its nuclear program.

Although the Bush administration vehemently denies any plans to attack Iran, political pundits believe Israel is trying to persuade the US president to bomb the Islamic Republic before he leaves office.

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By nahida, June 6, 2008 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

cyrena

With regards to the banning of Non Credo, I think that many of the so called progressive sites are either hacked into or bought by zionists

I have been experiencing the same problem of being banned and blocked on other sites: “Comment is Free” of the Guardian, and ” Common Dreams”

on Common Dreams, I was banned completely from posting, and they have deleted EVERY SINGLE POST of mine without any explanation, I cannot even log on under any name.

Even the letter I wrote to inform readers of “Common Dreams” of what happened, which was posted by a friend, was deleted, and he was also banned

it seems that the zionists are really panicking as they failed to stop the flood of information from breaking through the walls of deception they have been erecting for decades, concealing the truth is no longer an easy job as it used to be, so, they put tremendous efforts in desperate attempts to silence the TRUTH

Therefore, we need to persist and keep finding new avenues and platforms; we are indeed fighting a cyber war against decades of lies and deceit

The MSM is out of reach, but even many of the so called “progressive” and “liberal” media is in one way or another under zionist control I am afraid, for it disguises itself with peace and antiwar slogans, but when it comes to Palestine, the silence is deafening and even the faintest voices that attempts to challenge the zionists’ narrative is muted

For example, on this link you can see people commenting on my poem, but the poem is NOT THERE any more!

http://www.commondreams.org/arch…008/05/28/9240/

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By Purple Girl, June 6, 2008 at 4:06 pm Link to this comment

Granted Isreal can do what ever it wants to Fuck Up it’s people and Their Future, But it wil NOT BE US who will be backing them or cheering them On.
If they provoke a war with Iran, they are On Their Own!
Iran Has No Capability of developement Nor a Delivery system so such a comment constitutes an Unprovoked Attack. An Unjustified Act of Violence- A terrorist Move. there is No reason to being bombing jsut because You Don’t like the way they Talk About You.
Such an Act by Isreal will see a Backlash and a Dwindling of support By US, if not a number of European nations. Just because the criminals Who seized Our Country got away with such War Crimes (So FAR) Does Not mean have the Right to follow in their Socioopathic Foot Steps.
Such an act - with real Reprecusssions- Will cause me to End My personal Support for their ‘Friendship Status’.Cu tthem Off of all diplomatic and Financial AID andspecial Privieldges and Considerations. they will No longer get the Benefit of the Doubt.

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By nahida, June 6, 2008 at 3:58 pm Link to this comment

zionist would be happy to nuke the world

“Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.” I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.’

General Moshe Dayan

Source: Sunday September 21, 2003
The Observer


“What is Israel to do?...Israel has been building nuclear weapons for years…What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a nuclear winter?...... The ultimate justice?”

Professor David Perlmutter
The Los Angeles Times
April 7, 2002


“We Israelis possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets…...We have the capacity to take the world down with us.”

Dr. Marvin Crevald
Hebrew University
(Associated Press, 2006)

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By Louise, June 6, 2008 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

Did the “Holocaust” happen? Look around in today’s world and it becomes easy to accept it did. We see something eerily reminiscent of that evil right here, in the twenty first century, in the US and in Israel.

To gain public support for clearly unnecessary war, the rulers must create an enemy. So evil people that hold the strings, that pull the puppets, that lead our nation, identify our enemy, so we can go to war.

Whether Saddam, al-qaeda, bin-laden, Islam, Iran, doesn’t matter. We are told they are a threat. So fighting them over there is important to keep them from coming over here.

But that presents a problem. How to convince the public they’re under constant threat, while at the same time rationalizing irrational war by keeping the constant threat over there?

Create another threat.
One that’s right here.
Illegal aliens.

Our fascist leaders have created a double threat. One here requiring harsh control, and one there requiring more war. And both to keep us “free” and safe.

We have floating concentration camps. So-called bad guys imprisoned on boats moving around the world so our so-called good guys can continue torture and even murder, undetected and unsupervised. Bush’s answer to the Constitution and the Geneva Convention’s rule of law. Which says, we cant illegally imprison, kill and torture.

We have concentration camps here. Set aside for the incarceration of “illegal’s.”

Occasionally “legals” end up there by mistake. But that’s not important. Keeping us convinced the imprisoned are a threat, and the rulers are keeping us safe by holding the threat in a concentration camp. That’s important.

Even if it’s not necessary, or nice.

It wasn’t necessary or nice when Hitler did it to Jews and Gypsies and Catholics and Protestants and a free press [remember that?] and Gays either. But identifying an enemy was important to justify an unjustifiable war.

And keeping the “enemy,” incarcerated was important to the progress of the Third Reich. And torture and abuse were necessary to force the incarcerated to identify more bad guys. And sometimes murder was the end result of excessive torture. Or simply a handy tool to eliminate evidence.

But one thing Hitler did do that we don’t, he put his captives to work. Slave labor for the betterment of the Reich. We don’t do that. Our Constitution forbids slavery.

So here’s the quandary. Why is slavery forbidden, but unjustified wars, illegal imprisonment, torture, abuse and murder OK?

That’s a question I’d like Congress to answer.

At what point in time did the descendents of those who fought and died to defeat Fascism in Europe decide Fascism was a good idea?

At what point in time did the descendents of the Jews who suffered and died in Hitler’s Concentration Camps decide Concentration Camps were a good idea?

That I think puzzles me most.

That an entire population descended from people who were rounded up in an unnecessary war and forced to live and die behind a prison wall, have so eagerly adopted a policy of waging unnecessary war, and forcing an entire population to live and die behind a prison wall.

Palestine the largest visible concentration camp on earth, where the imprisoned are picked off like targets in a shooting gallery. And, with OUR blessing. And like us, they don’t imprison them for any purpose, like slave labor. They imprison them because they can.

Unbelievable.

Not that evil men will rule if given the opportunity, but that citizens who should know better will willingly accept their evil!

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By Thomas Billis, June 6, 2008 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment

Let them attack whomever they want.See if these attacks bring them any closer to the peace they espouse.Call and let us know how it is going.By the way could we get full disclosure on the Israeli nuclear plans.

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By cyrena, June 6, 2008 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

“... if Tehran refuses to halt its alleged weapons programme.”

And here again..

“If Iran continues with its programme for developing nuclear weapons, we will attack it.”

Absolutely unfucking believable!!

By now, the WORLD knows, that Iran is NOT developing nuclear weapons, because the WORLD body (not to mention the US intelligence agencies) have been over Iran with a super fine tooth comb, (for OVER 3 years now) and can’t find a single, solitary, piece of ANYTHING, that would provide ANY evidence that Iran is building nuclear weapons.

In fact, evidence of Iran building nuclear weapons is as absent as evidence that a Boeing 757 crashed into the Pentagon on Sept. 11, 2001, and all the propanganda and fake information in the universe, can’t put it there if it isn’t.

Israel..the epitome of a Rogue State, and terrorist to the world. And of course the plan has always been for the US to do this. But alas, the thugs got bogged down in the first project of destruction, and the THOSE lies became apparent almost immediately, so the US public isn’t buying it this time.

There’s only 6 months left, and they still haven’t been able to do it, so Olmert is over here in a panic, because things haven’t gone as planned. (for US to attack Iran for them). So now, he’s so frustrated, (and Cheney’s hands have so far been tied, so he can’t do it) that Olmert is finally desperate enough, (with time running out) to go ahead and make the threat to do it himself.

Why? To control the entire region. Like Ed says…if Israel can’t be the only one to have all of the nukes, they’d just as soon do a world wide murder/suicide.

These people are truly crazy. But then, we aren’t just figuring that out.

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By Marion Ross, June 6, 2008 at 2:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israeli Jews had already destroyed whatever sympathy the world had to them as the Holocaust survivors. Next will be the rise of anti-Semitism, which is totally deserved by likhudniks but will unfortunately ricochet to the innocent.
The comfortably living US Jews are in particular loosing moral ground by supporting AIPAK and thus promoting the Middle East regional wars. With a greater accessibility of information, the plight of Palestinians is finding more and more empathy, while Israel’s image is becoming one of a Nazi-kind state—with the nukes, about which Israel refuses to answer to any international body.

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By PatrickHenry, June 6, 2008 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Tension in the middle east was the reason given.

This smells of Israel and the numerous “speculators” bidding up the price w/6% down payment.  No doubt these speculators support Israel and are zionist too.

Let Israel attack Iran by themselves.  If they strike the first blow let us boycott them, it would be the right thing to do by the majority of Americans.

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By GoldenT, June 6, 2008 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment

The British Empire outpost of Israel is just as nuts as the Mother Ship.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2008 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel’s fanatical supporters are about to destroy two entire countries: they will use their control of our Congress and our corporate “news” media to force the US to go to war against Iran, which will ruin both countries.

They don’t care. If Israel can’t keep its regional nuclear monopoly, they’d rather destroy the whole world. They hate Iran even more than they adore themselves, and that’s saying quite a lot.

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