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Ear to the Ground

Israel Waylays Another Aid Ship

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Posted on Jun 5, 2010
AP / Mohammad Abu Ghosh

Jordanian protesters holding a Palestinian flag shout anti-Israeli slogans at a rally in Amman on Friday.

Israel has intercepted yet another Gaza-bound aid supply ship attempting to break the naval blockade of the occupied territory, but unlike the bloody raid on an aid flotilla Monday, Saturday’s interception occurred peacefully. And this time, Israeli authorities said the cargo, mostly medical and construction supplies, would be forwarded by land to Gaza. —JCL

Los Angeles Times:

Israeli warships Saturday intercepted another aid supply ship sailed by pro-Palestinian activists as it headed toward the Gaza Strip in an attempt to break Israel’s naval blockade of the seaside territory.

Unlike a previous raid, Saturday’s takeover occurred without bloodshed after Israeli naval negotiators reached an agreement to board the cargo vessel with activists’ permission, according to Israeli military officials.

The report could not be confirmed with activists because Israeli military jammed satellite and radio communications on the boat.

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By nemesis2010, June 11, 2010 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

By rico, suave, June 10 at 4:29 pm

”Substitute “Palestine” for “Baltic states” and “Semites” for “Slavs” and try my apples and oranges again.”

That’s the problem with conservative thought and logic, it’s neither.

Substituting Palestine and Semites for Baltic States and Slavs is a foolish generalization that omits key elements to the situation in Palestine. You make the same errors that Dillion did on another thread –the one where you praised him for his foolishly oversimplified analogy using Virginia.

First, an intruding group of Slavs renders 4 different Slav groups. You’d have to have the three currently conflicting groups become one united, more or less, people living on a single geopolitical territory rather than the several states that currently make up that region and all of them adherents to the same religion. And that religion has to be a religion whose mythological claims about their people and rightful inheritors of the land in question contradict those of the intruding group.

The intruding group of Slavs would have to be a group that was dispersed from the area about two millennia back and have been so interbred with inhabitants of the regions where they have lived that they no longer resemble Slavs. For example: Slavs dispersed to the African continent returning 2,000 years later, black skinned and featured, speaking primarily their different native tongues, and using Slav language mostly liturgically. And, as I pointed out in the above paragraph, of a contrary religion; a religion whose mythology declares that the dispersed and returning Slavs are the real inheritors—exactly the opposite of the opposing religion’s claims—of not only the region being granted to them by a non-elected political body but more than they have ever possessed at any time during their history in Slav lands. And it is noteworthy to mention that that “history” has to be mostly invention, exaggeration, and myth.

What should be evident to you right now is that you’re still trying to compare apples to oranges.

We all know what is at the very core of these problems in Palestine and it is belief in books of myth by many millions of adherents to the 3 monotheistic religions—Judaism, Christianity, and Islam—and Europe having dumped it’s inability to deal with its own prejudice and bigotry on someone else without their consent.

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By MarthaA, June 10, 2010 at 11:14 pm Link to this comment

It appears there is an issue of Extraterritorial Rights being ignored by Israel that the UN should check into,  because if there is not a signed document by the Palestinians giving Israel Extraterritorial Rights to push the Palestinians out, Israel is really in the wrong, and Helen Thomas is right.

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By rico, suave, June 10, 2010 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

nemesis:

“The Baltic states have a long and torrid history because of the geographic location which made it a floating frontier due to conflicts between Eastern and Western entities. The people are basically one people—Slavs—with different religious beliefs.”

Substitute “Palestine” for “Baltic states” and “Semites” for “Slavs” and try my apples and oranges again.

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By nemesis2010, June 10, 2010 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

I.

By rico, suave, June 8 at 4:47 pm

” Palestinian was not invaded militarily by a Jewish army. Israel had no army when IT was invaded by the Arabs in 1948.”

Really rico? So how did the Jews and the Palestinians fight the British who were supposed to maintain order? They may not have had an official standing army but they damn sure had a fighting force. You might want to check history books other than those from George W University and research Haganah, Palmach Brigades, The Stern Gang and Irgun. 

By rico, suave, June 8 at 4:47 pm

”It was created peacefully, and diplomatically by an institution which I am guessing you otherwise respect, the UN.”

Well, I have to admit that I’m not a graduate of George W University, so you do have advantage over me when it comes to twisted, distorted, and revised historical “facts.”

It (Israel) was created peacefully? Peacefully? Wow! I wasted a lot of money studying history in an accredited school. I was taught that the U.N.’s Partition Plan for Palestine was never accepted by either the Palestine Arab Higher Committee or the states of the Arab League. As a matter of fact I was taught that only two so-called “Arab” entities approved of the Plan; one was a Palestinian communist group and the other was the emir of Transjordan who wanted to annex all of Palestine into his emirate and mandate an autonomous Jewish entity that he wanted aligned with the Arab states; that doesn’t sound too damn peaceful to me rico baby.

My history lessons didn’t stop there. I was also taught that the signing of that U.N. mandate actually started the first phase of the 1948 civil war in Palestine, on 11-30-1947. Isn’t that the day that the U.N. voted to terminate the British Mandate and approved the Palestinian Mandate?

You shouldn’t guess anything about me rico baby. I do not respect the U.N. Not only is the U.N. not a duly elected representative of the populations of the nations involved it is not democratic since certain super-powers have veto rights which pretty much nulls and voids anything the U.N. would like to accomplish that doesn’t fit within their political ideology and agendas.

The other problem is the hypocrisy of people like you. You willingly accept those mandates which fit within your ideology and disregard those that aren’t to your liking. That very mandate that you and others claim gives Israel the right to exist also clearly defines its borders and says that Jerusalem and Bethlehem are to be open cities under U.N.—not Israeli or Palestinian—control. Who controls those two cities?

When you cede that kind of power to a political entity like the U.N and agree that it can, by fiat, dispossess millions of one people from their lands in favor of others then you set the very dangerous precedent that the U.N. can dictate that in whatever part of the world that they might believe they have reason to do so. In essence what you are approving is the right for the U.N. to declare by fiat, that the state of Texas, for example, can be the designated a homeland for all Americans of African descent because of the more than 200 year history of bigotry and prejudice that has been inflicted upon them in AmeriCorp. They can even dictate that California be returned to Mexico or returned to the indigenous peoples that originally populated it. Would you have us believe that a true blue conservative like yourself would be in agreement with such a fiat or should we suspect that there are other motives behind your ludicrous position?

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By nemesis2010, June 10, 2010 at 12:13 pm Link to this comment

II.

By rico, suave, June 8 at 4:47 pm

”Today Israel has diplomatic relations with 157 countries, including Egypt and Jordan, and no relations with 38 countries. If we were talking about ANY OTHER COUNTRY, we’d agree that that level of recognition would legitimize such a country’s right to exist. Why is Israel different?”

Why Israel indeed. Why were only Jews granted a homeland because of prejudice and persecution? Why didn’t they just return to their homelands and retake possession of their properties? The Nazis persecuted many other peoples besides Jews. Has allowing Europe to forgo dealing with its prejudices and bigotry by dumping it on people of another area resolved the problem? Have the Jews faced increasing or decreasing prejudice, bigotry, and hatred since the establishment of Israel? Is a serious outbreak of war in that part of the world more or less likely since the establishment of Israel?

By rico, suave, June 8 at 4:47 pm

”Wasn’t Bosnia created as a Muslim enclave following Serbian atrocities at Srebrenica and other places? What makes Yugoslavian Muslims so special that they deserve their own country? Does anyone question Bosnia’s right to exist? Why is Israel different?”

Apples to oranges.

The Baltic states have a long and torrid history because of the geographic location which made it a floating frontier due to conflicts between Eastern and Western entities. The people are basically one people—Slavs—with different religious beliefs. The conflicts that broke out after the fall of the Soviet Union were basically political and religious (2 Catholic and 1 Muslim) conflicts for supremacy. The U.N. set up the different states in order to prevent genocide on a grand scale and the issue is anything but resolved as U.N. forces are still present and who knows if they’ll ever be able to leave without new outbreaks. The Soviet Union had control for some 50 odd years and the minute it fell all those prejudices, bigotry, and hate surfaced and the killing began.

Please tell us what group of people was brought into the area from other nations and who could legally dispossess anyone they wished within a defined territory?

By rico, suave, June 8 at 4:47 pm

”And by the way, what’s this obsession with my screen name?”

Wrong word. The word should be “hilarity.”

What’s this “hilarity” with your screen name?

That should be painfully obvious.

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By nemesis2010, June 10, 2010 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

By rico, suave, June 9 at 6:38 pm

”I was merely warning him that most of the time, rather than reply to a post you diagree with with logic and rational debate, to take the lazy way out and call the poster a moron, or some such thing as if that assessment of his mental faculties settles the issue.”

Pure, unadulterated bullshit!

By rico, suave, June 9 at 6:38 pm

”Trust me, I’m one of your favorite targets. I personally resort to sarcasm, not peronal attack, unless someone really pisses me off, which is rare.”

Do you see the dilemma here? I have a choice of two words, either ignorant or stupid. If you were an airline pilot as you claim, then it is certain that you are highly educated. So when one reads that quote one has to make a decision based on your level of education. Is it possible that such a highly educated individual is “ignorant” of the definition of sarcasm or is he stupid?

We’re all ignorant of certain things regardless of how well educated we are. Being ignorant of something is nothing to be ashamed of because no one individual can know everything. But an individual with the level of education and experience that you have has to know the definition of such words as sarcasm and ad hominem. Thus one has but one option left in trying to decide whether or not an individual with your educational background is ignorant or stupid when he makes such a dumbass commentary as you have here and on the comments about Egyptians not being Arabs.

Sarcasm is designed to make the victim or recipient of the sarcasm the butt of contempt and/or ridicule. It is also intended to wound or hurt. Grab a dictionary and look it up. That’s personal and that’s ad hominem!

The difference between you and I is that I don’t bitch and moan and cry like a little girl because someone resorts to ad hominem, especially since I use a god-awful lot of sarcasm in my comments. In my defense I do believe that most of it is warranted. There are a lot of stupid people out there rico baby and your most recent comments provide much evidence to support that claim. smile

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By DaveZx3, June 9, 2010 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

Rico, Suave: 

I understand your point, I do not think you can reason with Nemesis, you just hold your ground.  It is amazing to me how some who claim such enlightenment can be so narrow minded. 

Nemesis: 

There is nothing supernatural about IVF that an advanced being could not have pulled off 2000 years ago.  You assume that the advancement of man is the epitome of scientific advancement of all time in all dimensions forever and ever.  This is more of a religious faith position than a scientific probability position. 

That is the shortcoming of your thinking, which causes you to make blanket statements about what is allowed to exist and what is not allowed to exist according to your personal little square inch paradigm. 

If you could broaden your thinking somewhat to see that man is not special in the universe, and that as Stephen Hawking said, you probably do not want to meet your intergalactic neighbor. 

I think you cannot see that you are making judgements about things you do not really have knowledge of.  You just assume they could not have happened, because in your world view, it is very, very important that they did never happen.  It is simply your brand of faith.  It has no more claim to knowledge than the book you hate so much. 

It is very unwise to make blanket statements that something could not possibly have happened.  Not too many years ago, it would have been unthinkable that man could clone another being or create life from scratch. 

What you think can’t happen today, suddenly happens tomorrow.  And if it could happen tomorrow, it could have happened yesterday, and you just don’t know about it.  As Einstein said, the future and the past are just illusions, and all time exists at once in a four dimensional reality, not a three dimensional evolving-time reality.  Who is to say when and if anything ever happened in time?

So when I discuss the ancient stories regarding men who absolutely believe these stories, I do so, because it is important to them that I understand that they really believe this stuff is true, and it is what makes them tick. 

The Arabs and the Jews have an issue that has been brewing for near 4000 years according to their firm beliefs.  I acknowledge their belief as the motivating factor behind some of their behavior.

I don’t know how that spooky thing got in there, that was me that made that last post, though I did it on a somewhat public computer where my daughter teaches.  I probably never signed on or something.

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By rico, suave, June 9, 2010 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment

nemesis:

Slow down big fella! I agree with you 100% about the Spookmeisters delusions.

I was merely warning him that most of the time, rather than reply to a post you diagree with with logic and rational debate, to take the lazy way out and call the poster a moron, or some such thing as if that assessment of his mental faculties settles the issue. Trust me, I’m one of your favorite targets. I personally resort to sarcasm, not peronal attack, unless someone really pisses me off, which is rare.

Just giving him a heads up about your style, that’s all.

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By nemesis2010, June 9, 2010 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

By rico, suave, June 8 at 10:32 pm

”Good luck reasoning with nemesis2010”

Actually I’m a very reasonable man and easy to reason with. The problem for people like you is that I know the difference between reason and having someone attempt to blow smoke up my arse.


Let’s look at some of the stupid comments by that idiot who now calls himself Spooky. Keep in mind that the so-called holy books—fiction—are the basis to all that is being said.

Do you think that idiot thought to study up a bit on IVF before making such a stupid and baseless comment? Do you think that he realizes that the most common IVF procedure in use today is Transvaginal Oocyte Retrieval and that it requires months of professional observation along with ultrasounding and hormonal therapy with fertilization drugs? You know that someone deluded and stupid enough to make such an asinine statement—presented as proof that a virgin teenager about 1 BCE could have been impregnated by ITV—didn’t arrive at his stupid conclusion through reason, so how can he be reasoned with?

Have you notice the fool’s little word games? Do you see the use of the word “clinically”? Brain dead is when one is officially dead. So not dead is dead to that idiot.

Thankfully he didn’t bring up the Hollywood zombies because he would have given me proof positive that he’s so stupid that he cannot distinguish zombies from actors performing in a film as zombies. How do you reason with someone that stupid?

He is so clueless that he doesn’t realize that being able to create life in the future doesn’t equate to the dead rising up out of the grave and walking around town talking, drinking, and banging booty around 30-33 CE! I wonder if his mom realizes that her kid is stealing time on her computer and pretending to be an adult.

Have you noticed that he said “maybe” horses don’t fly? How about the disconnect between horses being able to fly and the possibility of scientists manipulating DNA in the future to create flying horses? And the pièce de résistance, can I prove that horses have never flown! Do you think that idiot realizes that the burden of proof is on the shoulders of the one making the extraordinary claim? Do you think that he realizes it is for him to provide us with evidence that horses do fly or have flown in the past?

Do you really believe such an idiot knows about vertical stabilizers, elevators, ailerons, flaps, propulsion, etc. etc.? Do you think he is prepared to explain how a horsey flying to or from the heavens doesn’t freezing to death and how it manages to breathe in air without sufficient oxygen to sustain life?

Notice that while defending the fairy tale of a world flood and multimillions of animals being attended to for many days by only eight individuals—a physical impossibly that a visit to any zoo will confirm—he forgets that the book of fairy tales doesn’t say that Noah took aboard DNA of all the animals in existence but that they walked, flew, etc. to Noah and boarded the small boat willingly!


Do you think he even realizes that the largest wooden ship ever built was considerably smaller than the dimensions given in the book of fairy tales and that even those had to be reinforced with iron—which didn’t exist in the Bronze Age—in order to sustain the rigors of the sea?

The tripe just continues and gets even more Bizarro World as he goes on. Does Spooky appear to you to have enough mental ability to distinguish the difference between believing something true based on the evidence and belief in something based solely on faith?

Having been a pilot proves that you’re not the average conservative, you were at least able at some point in your life to learn and develop many worthwhile skills. I can only hope that you became stupid after retiring.

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By rico, suave, June 8, 2010 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

spooky-43:

Good luck reasoning with nemesis2010

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By Spooky-43, June 8, 2010 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

By nemesis2010, June 8 at 3:23 pm #

“Horses don’t fly. Zombies don’t exist. Virgins don’t give birth. Moses and the Exodus are make-believe. You can’t put millions of animals on a small boat and care for them with only 8 people. If you believe mythology and base your politics and life on it, you are not knowledgeable or have gained knowledge; you are f—king deluded.”

“Virgins don’t give birth”  Yes they can.  It is called IVF (In Vitro Fertilization)

“Zombies don’t exist”  I am not going to go into the hollywood Zombie, but a clinically dead human who is subsequently reanimated is hardly news.  In the near future, it will become more commonplace.    Man can make spare parts now, and has created sythetic life from scratch.  Zombie is just a scary word.  The creation of life is within the near future capability of mankind

“Horses don’t fly”  Maybe they don’t, but can you prove that they never did?  I am sure that within a given period of time, man will be able to maniuplate DNA to create a horse which could fly.  I know that cows fly, I saw one. 

“Moses and the Exodus are make believe”  There is some significant physical evidence to indicate the Exodus was a historical fact.  Do I need to provide all the websites, or are you capable of googling it yourself? 

“You can’t put millions of animals on a small boat and care for them with only 8 people”    If I had to run that show, I would tell Noah just to get a little DNA from each, and we would reconstruct them later.  I bet God could arrange that, if he felt like it.  The size of the boat was not “small”, and the number of animals was not “millions”

“If you believe mythology and base your politics and life on it, you are not knowledgeable or have gained knowledge, you are f—king deluded”

As I mentioned previously, it takes truth AND belief for knowledge to exist.  Think about it for a minute.  This is science speaking.  Since what you stated above is not necessarily true, it must be just your belief, and therefore does not qualify as knowledge. 

I think you may have an element of f—king delusion yourself.  Otherwise you would not set yourself up as the judge and jury of what does and what does not exist.  That is delusion, in my opinion.

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By rico, suave, June 8, 2010 at 12:47 pm Link to this comment

samo:

“What right to exist? Where is this right to exist, the source and the precedent please?”

Sorry, here you go:
From PalestineFacts.org:

“On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly, in its 128th plenary session, by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab.”

Palestinian was not invaded militarily by a Jewish army. Israel had no army when IT was invaded by the Arabs in 1948. It was created peacefully, and diplomatically by an institution which I am guessing you otherwise respect, the UN.

Today Israel has diplomatic relations with 157 countries, including Egypt and Jordan, and no relations with 38 countries. If we were talking about ANY OTHER COUNTRY, we’d agree that that level of recognition would legitimize such a country’s right to exist. Why is Israel different?

Wasn’t Bosnia created as a Muslim enclave following Serbian atrocities at Srebrenica and other places? What makes Yugoslavian Muslims so special that they deserve their own country? Does anyone question Bosnia’s right to exist? Why is Israel different?

And by the way, what’s this obsession with my screen name?

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By nemesis2010, June 8, 2010 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

By rico, suave, June 7 at 9:33 pm

”Like I posted to you on another thread, the last time I heard something like that was in third grade. Grow up.”

You’re confusing me with someone else. I am grown up. Are you changing your story and now claiming that you had “rico, suave,” as a nick-name in the third grade?

What I’m interested in knowing is why you said the following:

By rico, suave, June 6 at 4:24 pm

” nemesis:
“Simply ask him logically based questions”
PLEASE DO! I promise not to run off and change the subject.
I don’t read a lot of questions on TD, just dyspeptic bloviation from a bunch of out of touch loonies.”

And when asked a direct question in response to one of your 6 “suggestions” you totally ignored the question—which you do quite often—and addressed only the critique of your new handle which is more befitting a teenager than an old Karl Rove wannabe.

Let’s recap and see if we can obtain a straight answer from you.

You suggested:

“1. Israel returns to pre-1967 borders in exchange for explicit Palestinian acknowledgement of Israel’s right to exist.”

To which I asked:

What right to exist? Where is this right to exist, the source and the precedent please?

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By nemesis2010, June 8, 2010 at 11:23 am Link to this comment

By DaveZx3, June 8 at 7:52 am

”So, what was your point again?”

Horses don’t fly. Zombies don’t exist. Virgins don’t give birth. Moses and the Exodus are make-believe. You can’t put millions of animals on a small boat and care for them with only 8 people. If you believe mythology and base your politics and life on it, you are not knowledgeable or have gained knowledge; you are f—king deluded.

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By ThomasG, June 8, 2010 at 10:06 am Link to this comment

nahida, June 7 at 9:29 pm,

What you are saying is that Israel does not have legitimate extraterritorial rights and that Israel is trying to get the Palestinians to grant them legitimate extraterritorial rights as a precondition to a Palestinian State; this would place the Palestinians in the same position as the Native Americans of North America, it the Israelis were granted extraterritorial rights prior to the establishment of a Palestinian State.

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By DaveZx3, June 8, 2010 at 3:52 am Link to this comment

By nemesis2010, June 7 at 8:24 pm #

“mythology (mî-thòl´e-jê) noun”.....blah, blah, blah.

Pity you can’t see the point I am making. 

Believed myths are more important in evaluating behavior than are truths unbelieved.

Epistemologically speaking, both truth and belief are required for knowledge to exist.  While truth is most often elusive and in some cases could never be proven, belief is much easier to acquire and to discern, because it translates readily into behavior. 

So, of the two elements required for knowledge, belief commands a stronger position than truth does, and is the predominant force that rules in the affairs of men.

In this light, constantly saying something is not true or is a myth, does nothing to solve the issues that live in the minds of the Jews and the Arabs, and from an Islamic standpoint, could get you beheaded. 

So, what was your point again?

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By rico, suave, June 7, 2010 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment

Ed:

I know. Jess messin’ wit ya.

“Shots fired” and “shooting to kill” are different. Just trying to sort it out.

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By rico, suave, June 7, 2010 at 5:33 pm Link to this comment

nemesis:
“You’re conservative.”

Aw, shit. Busted.

“What’s next, a picture of you with your cap on backwards and your ass hanging out of your trousers?”

Like I posted to you on another thread, the last time I heard something like that was in third grade.

Grow up.

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By nahida, June 7, 2010 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

Why is it that zionists are soooo desperate “for explicit Palestinian acknowledgment of Israel’s right to exist.”.

THE TRUTH

http://www.redress.cc/palestine/ahart20100405

By Alan Hart


“Zionism’s assertion that Israel was given its birth certificate and thus legitimacy by the UN General Assembly partition resolution of 29 November 1947 is pure propaganda nonsense, as demonstrated by an honest examination of the record of what actually happened.”

In the first place the UN without the consent of the majority of the people of Palestine did not have the right to decide to partition Palestine or assign any part of its territory to a minority of alien immigrants in order for them to establish a state of their own.”

“Despite that, by the narrowest of margins, and only after a rigged vote, the UN General Assembly did pass a resolution to partition Palestine and create two states, one Arab, one Jewish, with Jerusalem not part of either. But the General Assembly resolution was only a non-binding proposal – meaning that it could have no effect, would not become binding, until and unless it was approved by the Security Council.”

The truth is that the General Assembly’s partition proposal never went to the Security Council for consideration. Why not? Because the US knew that, if approved, and because of Arab and other Muslim opposition, it could only be implemented by force, and President Truman was not prepared to use force to partition Palestine.”

“So the partition plan was vitiated (became invalid) and the question of what the hell to do about Palestine – after Britain had made a mess of it and walked away – was taken back to the General Assembly for more discussion. The option favoured and proposed by the US was temporary UN Trusteeship. It was while the General Assembly was debating what do that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence – actually in defiance of the will of the organized international community, including the Truman administration.”

“The truth of the time was that Israel, which came into being mainly as a consequence of Zionist terrorism and pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist unless it was recognized and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.”
“As it was put to me many years ago by Khalid al-Hassan, Fatah’s intellectual giant on the right, that legitimacy was “the only thing the Zionists could not take from us by force”.

“The truth of history as summarized briefly above is the explanation of why, really, Zionism has always insisted that its absolute pre-condition for negotiations with more than a snowball’s chance in hell of a successful outcome (an acceptable measure of justice for the Palestinians and peace for all) is recognition of Israel’s right to exist. A right, it knows, it does not have and will never have unless the Palestinians grant it.”

“It can be said without fear of contradiction (except by Zionists) that what delegitimizes Israel is the truth of history. And that is why Zionism has worked so hard, today with less success than in the past and therefore with increasing desperation, to have the truth suppressed.

Illegitimate…  Illegitimate…  Illegitimate


AS LONG AS THERE IS ONE PALESTINIAN ALIVE, “israel” WILL NEVER HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXIST


.

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By nahida, June 7, 2010 at 5:08 pm Link to this comment

.

Illegitimate…  Illegitimate…  Illegitimate


UN recognition of Israel is fatally flawed

“israel” HAS NO RIGHT TO EXIST

http://www.redress.cc/palestine/cking20100606


“...it is clear that once the Jews took up arms against the Palestinians, dispossessed them and settled on their land, they acted against the terms and intent of the Mandate, to say nothing of civil law.”

“The Balfour Declaration and League of Nations Mandate in favour of a ‘national home for the Jewish people’ are often cited as the legal basis for the Jewish occupation of Palestine. It is obvious, however, that this cannot be true. These instruments had no legal force.”

Israel not only had no pre-existing historical foundation but it incorporated a fatal flaw. That flaw was its failure to recognize the rights of the Palestinians.”

The Jews of Palestine cannot conceivably, therefore, invent a country and national identity on land confiscated by armed force from the Palestinian people. It is not possible.


.

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By nemesis2010, June 7, 2010 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

By rico, suave, June 6 at 1:42 pm

” 1. Israel returns to pre-1967 borders in exchange for explicit Palestinian acknowledgement of Israel’s right to exist.”

What right to exist? Where is this right to exist, the source and the precedent please?

Oh… rfiddler… that “rico, suave,” shit just doesn’t cut it. You’re conservative. Conservatives are cold, not cool. What’s next, a picture of you with your cap on backwards and your ass hanging out of your trousers?

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By nemesis2010, June 7, 2010 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

By DaveZx3, June 7 at 10:56 am

”The conflict actually started between Ishmael and Isaac, over the promises made by God blah blah blah blah…”

mythology (mî-thòl´e-jê) noun
plural mythologies
Abbr. myth., mythol.
1. a. A body or collection of myths belonging to a people and addressing their origin, history, deities, ancestors, and heroes. b. A body of myths concerning an individual, event, or institution: “A new mythology, essential to the . . . American funeral rite, has grown up” (Jessica Mitford).
2. The field of scholarship dealing with the systematic collection and study of myths.
[French mythologie, from Late Latin mýthologia, from Greek muthologia, story-telling : muthos, story + -logia, -logy.]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language.

By John Ellis, June 7 at 11:24 am

”FICTION HISTORY
In BC 1400 the tribes of Abraham invaded Canaan and until BC 600 ruled over the land as Israel.”

Actually evidence from modern archaeology does not support the bible exodus story. Not only is there absolutely no evidence to support the 40 years in the desert fairy tale, the evidence found in modern Israel and the surrounding area indicate that the “Hebrews” were simply one group among many living in Canaan and rose from within rather than from without. In other words, that particular people became the stronger group of ignorant, knuckle-dragging, mouth breathers and systematically killed off their competition for the limited resources in that area. Their settlements are easy to identify because, unlike others’, there are no pig bones!

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2010 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment

re:By rico, suave, June 7 at 4:19 pm:

That wasn’t me on the top deck! What I printed was a long quote from an
eyewitness account, with link at the bottom. I’m sorry, I thought it was clear, from
the switch to italics, that I was quoting from the article. Follow the link to the full
article.

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By rico, suave, June 7, 2010 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment

Ed:

“I was the last person to leave the top deck.”

I didn’t realize you were there. Were those first fired shots aimed at people or were they warning shots or shots meant to frighten you?

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2010 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

Re:By felicity, June 7 at 1:23 pm:

“A few days after taking office Sharon took about 10,000 armed Israeli troops
and ‘marched’ on Jerusalem’s Temple Mount, the 3rd most sacred place in Islam. 
It wasn’t long after that when the Palestinians laid down their rocks and pebbles
and picked up rockets. The question that nags is did the Palestinians react as
Sharon had hoped they would?”

Israel reminds me of a husband who goes into frequent, arbitary rages and beats
his wife. Finally one day, she picks up an iron skillet and manages to smack him
once or twice. He tells her, “Just at that moment, I was about to repent of my
cruelty, and change my ways, but now I see that you simply hate me, so don’t
expect any mercy from now on!”

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By felicity, June 7, 2010 at 9:23 am Link to this comment

DaveZx3 - actually God promised Abraham/descendents all the land between the Mediterranean and the Tigris - although God, always a little vague on details, wasn’t specific on Latitudes.

Ed Harges - A few days after taking office Sharon took about 10,000 armed Israeli troops and ‘marched’ on Jerusalem’s Temple Mount, the 3rd most sacred place in Islam.  It wasn’t long after that when the Palestinians laid down their rocks and pebbles and picked up rockets. The question that nags is did the Palestinians react as Sharon had hoped they would?

Just out - The Israeli government says that it will conduct a ‘private’ investigation of what happened - no outsiders allowed - and I assume will publish same on completion. Marvelous - nothing like putting the final nail in the coffin of Israel’s guilt.

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By DaveZx3, June 7, 2010 at 9:16 am Link to this comment

By John Ellis, June 7 at 11:24 am #

I don’t disagree, in principle, with your post.  It is noteworthy though, that the twelve tribes of Israel were all promised the land, not just the Jews, and as you indicated, the land was taken for disobedience.  The twelve tribes were scattered during various overthrows of the northern and southern kingdoms by the Babylonians and the Assyrians.

Is it becoming apparent that the present occupiers may be scattered, annihilated or conquered as well at some time in the not too distant future?

The point that I try to make on this thread is that whether the history is factually true or not is of little significance at this point.  It is what people believe that drives them, not what may or may not have happened 4000 years ago. 

And it is the ancient beliefs which must be dealt with regarding any solution, otherwise the solution is not going to be of any lasting significance.  And it certainly does no good to blame one side for all the aggression and atrocities.  There is plenty of evidence for this on both sides over the years.

It is telling that the atheistic and leftist communities generally rally against the Judaeo-Christians more than the Islamists, when the Islamists have a very unfavorable view of the unbeliever and the Islamic religion is much more intolerant in its practices, especially towards women and others who are non-Muslim.

It is the universal hatred of the Jew and the King of the Jews, Jesus Christ, that makes strange allies amongst the rest of the world.   

I personally believe that the biblical stories of Abraham are true, at least in the principle points.  The idea that these stories can have such a great impact on current affairs in the 21st century is fairly amazing, unless there is a God.  Rational people would have discarded these stories thousands of years ago.

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2010 at 7:30 am Link to this comment

Rabbi Brant Rosen makes a point I’ve been trying to make. Maybe “Rfidler/Rico,
Suave” will take this seriously, coming from a guaranteed non-anti-Jewish
source:

As I read the myriad of reactions to the Gaza Freedom Flotilla tragedy last
Sunday, I’m struck by one recurring theme: the sense of astonishment that
these activists responded to the Israeli Navy with violence.

In other words, they didn’t act according to the script. They didn’t behave like
proper practitioners of civil disobedience. The implication: if they had
responded like the non-violent activists they were purported to be, this whole
tragedy could well have been avoided.

There’s only problem with this calculus: non-violent Palestinian protests have
actually been ongoing throughout the Occupied Territories for years - and the
Israeli military has been responding to them with much the same kind of
brutality that was used against the passengers of the Mavi Marmara.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-brant-rosen/beyond-the-flotilla-the-
c_b_598649.html

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By Ed Harges, June 7, 2010 at 7:19 am Link to this comment

Dear Rico, Suave;

So much for your fantasy that Israel only fired harmless “warning shots”:

Just after 4am local time, the Israeli military attacked the ship, in
international waters. It was an unprovoked attack. Tear gas was used, sound
grenades were launched, and rubber coated steel bullets were fired from
almost every direction.

Dozens of speed boats carrying about 15-20 masked Israeli soldiers, armed to
the teeth surrounded the Mavi Marmara which was carrying 600 or so unarmed
civilians. Two helicopters at a time hovered above the vessel. Commandos on
board the choppers joined the firing, using live ammunition, before any of the
soldiers had descended onto the ship.

Two unarmed civilians were killed just metres away from me. Dozens of
unarmed civilians were injured right before my eyes.

One Israeli soldier, armed with a large automatic gun and a side pistol, was
overpowered by several passengers. They disarmed him. They did not use his
weapons or fire them; instead they threw his weapons over board and into the
sea.

After what seemed at the time as roughly 30 minutes, passengers on board the
ship raised a white flag. The Israeli army continued to fire live ammunition. The
ships organisers made a loud speaker announcement saying they have
surrendered the ship. The Israeli army continued to fire live ammunition.

I was the last person to leave the top deck.

Below, inside the sleeping quarters, all the passengers had gathered. There
was shock, anger, fear, hurt, chaos.

Doctors ran in all directions trying to treat the wounded, blood was on the
floor, tears ran down people’s faces, cries of pain and mourning could be
heard everywhere. Death was in the air.

Three critically injured civilians were being treated on the ground in the
reception area of the ship. Their clothes soaked in blood. Passengers stood by
watching in shock, some read out verses of the Qur’an to calm them, doctors
worked desperately to save them.

Several announcements were made on the load speakers in Hebrew, Arabic and
English - “This is a message to the Israeli army, we have surrendered. We are
unarmed. We have critically injured people. Please come and take them. We will
not attack.”

There was no response.

One of the passengers, a member of the Israeli Parliament, wrote a sign in
Hebrew, reading the exact same thing; she held it together with a white flag
and approached the windows where the Israeli soldiers were standing outside.
They pointed their laser guided guns to her head, ordering her to go away.

A British citizen tried the same sign -  this time holding a British Flag and
taking the sign to a different set of windows and different set of soldiers. They
responded in the same manner.

Three hours later, all three of the injured were pronounced dead. The Israeli
soldiers who refused to allow them treatment succeeded where their colleagues
had earlier failed when they targeted these three men with bullets.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/06/06/kidnapped-israel-
forsaken-britain

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By DaveZx3, June 7, 2010 at 6:56 am Link to this comment

By nemesis2010, June 6 at 10:07 pm #

“How could there have been a 4,000 year old conflict when for 2 thousand years there was no Jewish state in the area? From 70 CE to the early 20th century there was no Jewish/Arab conflict. From the beginning of the Common Era until 1948 it has been Christian/Jewish conflict. Christianity is the source for much of the anti-Jewish sentiment in the world.”

The conflict actually started between Ishmael and Isaac, over the promises made by God to their father Abraham.  This is more or less agreed by Jews and Arabs alike. 

This conflict created jealousy and resentment which has led to intense hatred over the years.  The atrocities and wars which have ensued, on and off are very well documented.  Need I quote some of them, or can you just google it? 

But it is mostly the title deed to the land of Israel and the holy city of Jerusalem, which God promised to Abraham’s lineage, that has been the source of the friction between Jews and Arabs right up to the present day.  Many non-Arabs, have been drawn into the battle by the spread of the Islamic empire and religion, which is a post Christian phenomenon.  The Jews have also gathered their allies also, mostly, I believe, are of the ancient bloodlines of the so-called “lost” tribes of Israel, which migrated westerly mostly along the upper Mediterranean after the fall of their nation of ancient Israel.

Now whether this conflict actually occured in history, or not, is really a moot point.  I say that because, what exists in the minds of the beligerents as reality, becomes their reality.  You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but it will not do any good.  It goes way beyond any common sense. 

That is why simplistic solutions never, never work.  Both sides may even agree, and it will last for a few weeks or months, maybe even years.  But do not be lulled.  They are only gathering their strength for the big battle they both know is just over the horizon, which will intitially break out in the Jerzreel Valley.  It is effectively a fait accompli.

The roots of the conflict need to be drawn out and put on the table for any true negotiations to ensue and any possible peace to be accomplished.  That is my opinion.

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By babycatajesus, June 6, 2010 at 9:52 pm Link to this comment

Post by “John” on AlterNet last week;

http://www.alternet.org/story/147083/israeli_legislator_reveals_her_terror_on_ship,_accuses_israel_of_intentionally_killing_peace_activists_to_deter_future_flotillas/?page=2


I am beginning to think that the attack on the Flotilla did exactly what it was intended to.

To bring in a quote here: Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/...
(it goes on from there)

If one reads pre-WWII Zionist literature, before this movement became a state-backed force, and thus did not have to couch its rhetoric as much, it is obvious that anti-Semitism was very encouraged by the Zionist movement, as it helped further their aims. (More on this enlightening character here: 

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/herzl... )

As their aim is to force g-d’s hand to end the exile (something that had been condemned by all religious Jewish leaders prior to WWII and many even after that) and to bring all Jews to Israel, to suggest that they intentionally act to increase anti-Semitism throughout the world by their state’s action is doing nothing more than to suggest that they continue the same tactics they have historically used.

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/resources/onl...

In this book it details how repeated attempts to save the victims of the holocaust were made, but thwarted by the Zionist organizations as they did not involve moving the Jewish people in question to Palestine (which would have been illegal under the white paper of 1939, which negate the Balfour Declaration.

The reasoning used by the Zionist in regard to the Holocaust at the time was to the effect that “one goat in Palestine is more important than all the Jews in Europe.

At one point a group of elders, women and children was blocked from even being sent to Palestine as they would not help the goal of a violent takeover of Palestine as they were not capable of fighting, the Zionists only wanted healthy men of fighting age.

The Rothschild’s provided most of Hitler’s financial backing When one looks into the Zionist history and mindset, It starts making more in more sense when one looks at how this group of secular Jews acts, and explains most of, if not all of, the behaviour.

Zionism, from the outset, has fostered Anti-Semitism as a way to make Jews feel threatened in the world, forcing them to move to Palestine.

To make this an even sadder situation, according to the three oaths of Judaism, which are adhered to by at least Orthodox Jews, to partake in a secular “Jewish” state brought about by force rather coming about after the advent of the messiah as shown by the redemption of all Jewish people, to live in such a state is a violation of a compact with G-d. To support such a state, according to traditional Jewish faith, is to completely give up on G-d.

I am not certain that the Zionists are consciously intending to promote anti-Semitism, but the more I look at the history and the current actions they partake in, I am unable to find any other way of understanding their history and current actions that makes even the slightest amount of sense. And looked at this way, the history and actions of the State of Israel (controlled by Zionists) make PERFECT sense.

Can anyone please give me a suggestion that is less horrible to contemplate that explains the actions we see the state of Israel undertaking on a regular basis?

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment

Re:By rico, suave, June 6 at 11:11 pm:

Actually I think it’s a great picture. Seriously, you look great - it’s impossible to
dislike that person.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

Ed:

I don’t know. A friend of mine started the “suave” epithet with his phone calls. It’s just a gimmick, nothing serious. No deep meaning. Looking for a better picture to attach though. Need to keep up with Knopfler, that sexy stud!

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

To the former, “rfidler”, now “rico, suave”: 

Why the name change?

Has Mr. R. Fidler, who despite his name and reflexive pro-Israel positions claims
to bring no ethnic bias to this discussion, decided that his new screen makes it
easier to appear disinterested?

“Suave” indeed. Clever you.

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By nemesis2010, June 6, 2010 at 6:07 pm Link to this comment

By DaveZx3, June 6 at 8:22 pm

” When shooting up an aid boat is the latest episode in a near 4000 year old conflict, which has been declared in writing for well over 2000 years, it is time for simple-minded solutions to be put aside. Blah, blah, blah…”

Jeebus on a Ritz cracker want a load of bull.

How could there have been a 4,000 year old conflict when for 2 thousand years there was no Jewish state in the area? From 70 CE to the early 20th century there was no Jewish/Arab conflict. From the beginning of the Common Era until 1948 it has been Christian/Jewish conflict. Christianity is the source for much of the anti-Jewish sentiment in the world.

By DaveZx3, June 6 at 8:22 pm

”There is no way, from a rational standpoint, to explain the circumstances going on in that little plot of land for the past 6000 years or more.”

Wrong! There are many rational explanations to explain the circumstances. First and foremost would be the irrationality of religious dogma and its adherents. Then there are the many geopolitical and economic explanations from antiquity. You may have noticed that after the fall of the Roman Empire there wasn’t much interest in that shithole until the questionable establishment of the modern state of Israel. Even today the only reason there is any interest in that shithole is because of the actions of the adherents to the 3 monotheistic religions whose true desire it to destroy the world so that they can go on to live with their imaginary little sky friends for ever and ever. Unlike ancient times that strip of land no longer plays a vital part in world economic and political reality.

Even the imaginary Jehovah thinks ill of the Jews. Perhaps he (meaning the Hebrews who wrote the books of fairy tales) saw serious character flaws in their myopic mental makeup. I don’t know of any other mythology where the sky daddy promises to cover his chosen peoples’ faces in shit.

Have you any evidence to support your asinine claim that the Arabs want to eradicate the Jews from the face of the earth? Please present it if you do.

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By nemesis2010, June 6, 2010 at 6:03 pm Link to this comment

By rfidler, June 6 at 4:21 pm

”Well, I guess I’d be pissed off at the UN, not Jehovah’s Witnesses. They just need a place to live without being anihilated by anti-Semites like you.”

We both know that you’d be pissed off at a lot more than just the U.N. and you’d do everything in your power to avoid dispossession and to resist it at every opportunity to hold it to a minimum. The exact same thing that they are and have been trying to do.

Asking the right questions does not make me an anti-Semite. Arabs are Semites too! In order to be a true anti-Semite one would have to be against all those classified as Semitic which means all Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians. DUH!

Please present us with any comments made by me that condone violence against the Israelis or anti-Jew sentiments. I feel that just as you had to apologize for having lumped me with the military bashers you’ll have to apologize for having labeled me an anti-Semite when nothing could be further from the truth.

European Jewry had a place to live. And so did all the other Jews as they all arrived from other parts of the world. Had European Jewry actually resisted and fought back, as a few did, they might still have perished in large numbers—who didn’t perish in large numbers?—but at least they would have perished standing on their feet rather than humbled and on their knees. And they would have gained respect for not cowering under the Nazi boot and would, undoubtedly, still be living in their homelands. There were about 19-20 million Russian dead in WWII, you didn’t see them asking that a homeland for them be set up in Palestine because of prejudice in Europe. Did anyone offer the gypsies a land to dispossess and take over? Why just the Jews?

What has running from European prejudice done for them? Do you think that they’d be facing the same problems in 21st century Europe?

By rico, suave, June 6 at 6:33 pm

” DaveZx3 and nemesis:
Love the metaphysics, but we’re talking about Israelis shooting up an aid boat here!”

How very astute of you rfidler or “rico, suave.”

Anything to do with the modern state of Israel and especially the Jews has metaphysics as an integral part of it—the “chosen people” and “the promised land” thingies—as DaveZx3 demonstrated by bringing into the discussion his Jewish zombie friend and all that made up and crazy Christer eschatology.

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By PatrickHenry, June 6, 2010 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

Petey K,

Why should looks matter to you? Its apparent yours don’t do anything for you or improve your lack of education.  But then as many posters here have pointed out to you, your entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts.

The Israelis will suffer bad karma by inflicting preventable hardships on the Palestinians as they have suffered over millenia.

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By Robert, June 6, 2010 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

Israel accused of fabricating flotilla video

06.05.2010

By Mya Guarnieri

“Tel Aviv - Ma’an - The Israeli army released video footage Monday of the navy radioing the Turkish vessel Mavi Marmara prior to the raid that took place in international waters and left at least nine activists dead.

But on Friday, it released a new version of the same footage — one that it says proves its claims that many aboard were religious extremists — but that some say has been very obviously tampered with.

In the first video released in the immediate aftermath of the violent raid, a soldier says, “Mavi Marmara, you are approaching an area of hostility which is under a naval blockade.” There is no recorded response.

The soldier continues, “The Gaza area, coastal region, and Gaza harbor are closed to all maritime traffic.” Again, no response.

The soldier radios once more, saying, “The Israeli government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in the Gaza Strip and invites you to enter the Ashdod port …”

But an updated version, released five days later, includes three alleged responses from passengers who, according to the video, were supposedly on board the Mavi Marmara. This new clip shows only a still of the soldier who appears in the first footage.

 

The soldier, who is not named, does not address the Mavi Marmara as he did in the video released Monday. Instead, he says, “This is the Israeli navy; you are approaching an area which is under a naval blockade.”

A man with an odd, indistinct accent responds, “Shut up. Go back to Aushwitz.”

Then the voice of a woman follows. She states, “We have permission from the Gaza Port Authority to enter.”

The third response, which seems entirely disconnected from the events, comes from a man with a heavy Southern accent. “We’re helping Arabs go against the US. Don’t forget 9/11 guys.”

Ali Abuminah, founder of the website Electronic Intifada, reported on his blog that the woman’s voice is that of Huwaida Arraf.

Arraf, a Palestinian-American who chairs the Free Gaza Movement, confirmed that it was her voice. But she emphasized that she was on the Challenger 1 boat, not the Mavi Marmara.

“I was by the radio the whole time there was any communication,” Arraf told Ma’an. “Mine was the only boat in which I answered and not the captain and they all answered in a very professional manner.”

Arraf told Ma’an that while she might have spoken of having permission from the Gaza Port Authority on a previous attempt to break the blockade, she is certain that she did not say it on Monday morning.

“When they radioed us, we were still 100 miles away,” she said. “There’s no doubt that this whole thing they put out is fabricated.”

Asked about claims that army video had been faked, an Israeli army spokesperson remarked, “There is no basis for the allegations.”

But to many, the recordings are just the latest move in the Israeli army’s aggressive campaign to sway public opinion.

Israel seized all recording devices from journalists and activists who were on the flotilla. The army has released its own footage for use in its still-raging war of information being fought on blogs, Facebook, Twitter, and media outlets.

===

Click on link for videos & the rest:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/i-am-shocked-shocked-2/

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 4:28 pm Link to this comment

DaveZx3:
“it is probable that some simplistic, little list of solutions, drafted up by well-meaning, but insufficiently endowed minds”

Well, excuse the living fuck out of me, asshole!

Come up with your solution and we’ll talk about it. Or shut the fuck up.

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By DaveZx3, June 6, 2010 at 4:22 pm Link to this comment

When shooting up an aid boat is the latest episode in a near 4000 year old conflict, which has been declared in writing for well over 2000 years, it is time for simple-minded solutions to be put aside.

If it be a metaphysical, non-negotiable reason that the Jews must, if only in their own minds, control Jerusalem for the duration, whether anyone understands it or not, then it is not out of place to discuss the problem in metaphysical terms. 

I think that one could not even begin to comprehend the long history of biblical and historical Israel without minor excursions into the metaphysical.  If you think otherwise, you have not sufficiently grasped the issues. 

There is no way, from a rational standpoint, to explain the circumstances going on in that little plot of land for the past 6000 years or more. 

So, it is probable that some simplistic, little list of solutions, drafted up by well-meaning, but insufficiently endowed minds, is readily understood by both sides to be unacceptable to the Jews.  So why would the Arab world not endorse it?  They understand, at least at some level, the true nature of the problem, and it will make them look reasonable if they endorse an idea which they know Israel cannot accept. 

The Palestinians might like to go home, but the Arab nations know that peace would defeat their real purpose, which is the utter eradication of the Jews.  This is the game which is being played with the Palestinian pawns by Jew haters who masquerade as concerned citizens with iron pipes. 

And as the rest of the world gets more comfortable with the expression of their hatred for Israel, the game goes on, but not for too much longer, I don’t think. 

Of course we all know that virtually the whole world hates the Jew, with a “metaphysical” passion, and always will, though many will pretend otherwise.  The Jews have known this for a long, long time.  And some of them even know why.

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By radson, June 6, 2010 at 4:16 pm Link to this comment

The sailing of the Rachel Corrie alone towards Gaza is actually detrimental to the pressure that the activists are trying to inflict upon Israel.The blundered IDF assault on the Mavi Marmara led towards
the condemnation of Israel by several countries and tens of thousands of demonstrators .Mark Regev and his stooges were in damage control for days after the fiasco and their nonsensical reference towards
the passengers as being Terrorists,Al Queda and Jihadists just amplified their stupidity.If you recall Avidor was -well actually -the imbecile was not to be heard ,probably for good measure and Bibi was
ranting somewhat like his hero and mentor Ariel about the possibility of Gaza becoming an Iranian Missile Base-really.The White House just chirped slightly enough to have a ghostly presence and PM Harper
echoed the preprogrammed rhetoric.How quickly the language has changed ;the Rachel Corrie activists were peaceful therefore the IDF responded with restraint;the shipment of supplies is acceptable but only through the port of Ashdod therefore minimizing the meaning of the illegal stranglehold being subjected towards the Gazans ;somehow the lies that the Gazans are being well treated is being pursued with more
rigor than ever and the MSM is spewing this nonsense at the same rate as the Gulf oil spill ,but all in the name of legitimate security concerns ,yes indeed the world should be concerned.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

DaveZx3 and nemesis:

Love the metaphysics, but we’re talking about Israelis shooting up an aid boat here!

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 2:07 pm Link to this comment

Thank you Sodium. I appreciate the kind words.

I hope that my effort puts to rest the notion that my usual defense of Israel on this blog doesn’t mean that I’m completely in the tank for it.

I am not a Jew. I don’t belong to any pro-Israel organizations. I am a neo-con. Many prominent American Jews are neo-cons. Strictly a coincidence.

I believe in Israel’s right to exist in peace. Pure and simple, long and short of it.

Salaam/shalom. How close those words are!

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By DaveZx3, June 6, 2010 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

By nemesis2010, June 6 at 3:50 pm #

“The Jesus of the New Testament never existed nor is there any proof that there ever was an Abraham either. Those stories in that compilation of 66 books are mythology. Make believe!”

Materialism is not the judge of what exists and what does not exist.  Time and space themselves are just illusions according to some of the greatest scientific minds of all time. 

What lives in the collective consciousness is more real than that which exists in the material world, because consciousness has none of the boundaries of quanta. 

Whether Jesus or Abraham were material or not is of little concern, considering that they continue to have the impact that they do, thousands of years after their stories were written down.

But there is plenty of evidence for the physical existence of Jesus and Abraham, as well as the stories of you so-called mythological 66 books.  But the fanatical skeptic can believe anyting, can’t he?  There are at least 100 books written to prove anything you wish to believe. 

So, what is the exact point of your above statement?  Is it that whatever does not live in your consciousness cannot possibly live in another’s consciousness?  Or are you a materialism freak, insisting that nothing can exist which you cannot see?

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By Sodium-Na, June 6, 2010 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment

Re: rfidle,June 6 at 1:42 pm.

I seldom respond to posters who sound emotionally,pasionately,blindly and totally pro-Israel,since countless of past encounters with such posters had/have taught me I would just waste my time with no end insight.

However,I join Ed Harges and express my “THANKS” to you for the six points you have listed in your Re referred to above. I encourage everyone else interested in achieving peace between the Israelis and Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world to go back a few posts down and review your constructively listed six points to resolve the tragic conflict once and for all.

I,for one,accept your six point for peace,without any reservation. And I would say it is fair based on the fact that I know the conflict from “A” to “Z”.

I do not know whether you are familiar or not with the Beirut’s Arab League’s Plan of 2002 that was signed and adopted by every Arab state of the 22 Arab countries,(including Saddam’s Iraq),that comprised the whole Arab World. The plan is quite similar to the six points you so objectively and constructively listed in your above Re.

Unfortunately and regrettably,the Arab plan for peace of 2002 was rejected by the Israeli government then;and subsequently ignored by the U.S.

During the 1970s and 1980s I had the opportunity of paying visits to Palestinian Refugees Camps in Jordan,Syria and Lebanon,at different times and whenever I could. I had rather lengthy conversations with some of these refugees over small cups of sweetened-minted-tee they insisted to offer me. In short,anyone who thinks those Palestinian refugees are going to forget their homes,lands,farms and businesses they used to have before they were expelled from them,at a point of a gun,he or she are living in a delusion of a “Fantazia” and wishful thinking. Those people are teaching their grandchildren never,never to forget their unalienable rights in Palestine. That reminds me of what the Jews have been saying in their celebration of their holidays for centuries:

“Next Year In Jerusalem,Next Year In Jerusalem”.

Well,it seems to me that it is the Palestinians turn to start chanting:

“Next Year in Palestine,Next year In Palestine”,

until their wish,like the Jews,is fulfilled.

If your six points plan ever fulfilled,the possibility of prosperous Middle East may unfold in a big way for everyone living there:
Arabs,Jews,Kurds,Armenians etc alike. This is quite achievable,if Israel,Palestine,Jordan,Syria,Lebanon,Iraq and Egypt form one market to exchange commodities they produce,each in their own sovereign border, but with open borders for movement of goods,services and people.

Let us just hope that your six points proposal will be accepted by both sides.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

So you’re not Jewish. Whatever.

I just think it’s incredibly morally obtuse of you to think it’s somehow decisive to
know whether or not they waited to be fired on in such circumstances, whereas
it’s obvious you would regard Jews putting up resistance in the very same
situation as heroes, even if, or perhaps especially if, they didn’t wait to be
shot at before resisting. You are as morally unteachable as an old shoe.

Even if you’re not Jewish, it’s quite obvious that you simply cannot see past your
favoritism for Jewish Israelis over other people.

As for the source of this blind favoritism, I’m out of theories.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

Ed:

“...fired on it a few minutes BEFORE commandos abseiled (whatever that means) from a helicopter directly above them”

Firing warning shots and shooting to kill are two entirely different things. Be honest here.

And of course the Arab parliamentarian “accused” the Israelis of intending to kill the activists. Can we agree that the Arab had a particular bias in this case? And is a mere accusation from a biased observer all you need for proof of a crime?

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

Ed:

Can I call you Ed?

Why is it that what Israel has done necessarily renders them “utterly incapable of imagining anyone else’s pain, anyone else’s fear, anyone else’s right to security, anyone else’s right to resist aggression and bullying?”

Is Hamas utterly incapable of same?

Do you really believe that Israel just rumbles into Gaza every six months or so for purely morbid entertainment? Really?

I’m not Jewish. I’m an atheist of Protestant birth.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

By rfidler, June 6 at 4:17 pm

“An Arab member of the Israeli parliament who was on board the
international flotilla that was attacked on Monday as it tried to take
humanitarian aid to Gaza accused Israel yesterday of intending to kill peace
activists as a way to deter future convoys.

Haneen Zoubi said Israeli naval vessels had surrounded the flotilla’s flagship,
the Mavi Marmara, and fired on it a few minutes before commandos abseiled
from a helicopter directly above them

http://counterpunch.org/cook06022010.html

But rfidler: Israelis claim the right to pre-emptive self-defense.

Imagine: it’s the middle of the night, everyone’s sleeping, when suddenly, there
are blinding lights and the terrifying noise of helicopters and military voices
barking over loud-speakers; heavily armed, hi-tech commandos come
swooping down from overhead onto your ship full of unarmed people.

Imagine that you on the ship are unarmed Jews, bringing aid to a besieged
ghetto. Imagine ANYONE blaming you for fighting back, ineffectually, before 9
of you are killed. Imagine anyone daring to ask you if you waited to be
fired on before offering any violent resistance?

Rfidler, why are Jews like you so utterly incapable of imagining anyone else’s
pain, anyone else’s fear, anyone else’s right to security, anyone else’s right to
resist aggression and bullying?

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

nemesis:
“Simply ask him logically based questions”

PLEASE DO! I promise not to run off and change the subject.

I don’t read a lot of questions on TD, just dyspeptic bloviation from a bunch of out of touch loonies.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

nemesis:

“How would you and your neighbors react if the U.N. decreed that your homes, communities, cities, counties and state were now the property of the Jehovah’s Witnesses?”

Well, I guess I’d be pissed off at the UN, not Jehovah’s Witnesses. They just need a place to live without being anihilated by anti-Semites like you.

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By Peter Knopfler, June 6, 2010 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

“We need a hundred ships to run the blockade”, comment by Patrickhenry, Now I SEE why you don`t show your face and why you hide behind a mask, Yes Americans have always had this hidden agenda comes from Christian thinking only because they still use the Rabbi on the cross as their religious centerpiece, 2010 year old lie that brings on, Crusades, Inquisition, Holocaust etc.Christians always have been blood thirsty and they project it on 0thers like Jews Christianity another false relogion using the Rabbi to torture his own people,Paul-Saul who hated women wrote the New Testament in Greek! The the real patrick henry was a Mason, and not a Chrsitian, THE MASK of CHRISTIANITY is what Masonry wants you to beleive, The Mask, THE veil and patrick henry you would look great in a steel blue BURQUA- Berka, And give the mask a rest,” hundred ships, of fools, right Patrickhenry.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

Harges:

Well, if in fact the Israelis fired before they hit the decks, then that changes everything. Yours is the first charge I’ve heard to that effect.

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By gerard, June 6, 2010 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

By karimguy83, June 6 at 1:25 pm # Thanks for a response. What I advocate is to replace “the blame game” with analysis and careful study of what really happened, in detail, because this flotilla is, among other things, an experiment in nonviolent resistance to a tortuous, long-lasting, unfair blockade. As an experiment, it succeeded probably beyond the hopes of the participants, nine of whom gave their lives. 
Perhaps they need not have died, if, if, if ... 
  But the way nonviolence works—or doesn’t work—is barely understood and all too seldom used.  I favor it over violence wherever possible.
  The flotilla is and was a great experiment and I praise it.  However—nine lives were lost, perhaps unnecessarily.  Beyond the question of whether or not Israel acted illegally, as yet unresolved, Israel is undoubtedly chastened by adverse world opinion.  That chastisement, well-earned (for boycott and occupation, which naturally feed hatred, are always negative in the long run) has probably been the cause of Israel’s restraint regarding the succeeding shipments.
  How might the nine lives have been saved?  1. If everyone on board had understood the premises and tactics of nonviolence and was prepared to practice it 100%—difficult but not impossible. 2. If everything about the shipment was completely open to inspection by Israel plus others BEFORE entering areas that challenged Israel. (Considering Israel’s paranoia, it is unreasonable to expect them not to be suspicious under the circumstances.) 3.  If there had been careful and complete information shared worldwide about the flotilla, its purposes, its membership, its contents AHEAD OF TIME worldwide.  4. Perhaps (and I’m not sure on this point, but it’s just a thought) if there had been no Palestinians on board the first ship, bearing in mind Israel’s extreme paranoia regarding Hamas etc.
  This is only a partial analysis due to limits of comment space.  But I think it is vitally important that this flotilla is succeeding,(or is taking a big step toward success)  and the degree of its success is largely due to its nonviolent nature.
  We need to learn from this experience for it gives clues to another way to solve problems beyond hatred, war and routine bloodshed.


Ofcourse Gerard, it is very convenient for you to speak about the blame game, when it is Israel that has just executed 9 civilians. You speak of nonviolence, yet it somehow escapes you that the people on the ship,before it was boarded by Israeli pirates, were perfectly peaceful,carrying much needed aid to the people of Gaza.And yes we have a solution, its called boycott the occupier.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 11:55 am Link to this comment

re:By rfidler, June 6 at 3:21 pm :

Eyewitness accounts by the surviving victims state that the Israelis began firing their guns
at the ship even before they rappelled onto the deck. It is reasonable to suppose that
the landing Israelis may have paused in their gunfire while they were hoisting themselves
onto the deck, as their hands were busy with the ropes and all.

Please, please: imagine if these Turks had been unarmed Jewish activists, in international
waters, bringing aid to the Warsaw ghetto. If they had managed to rough up some of their
armed assailants, or even managed to wrest a gun from a commando and give the thugs
some trouble before 9 Jews were shot dead, would Americans not hail them as heroes?
Would anyone dare to criticize them for lack of Gandhian forbearance?

Zionists are always screaming about the Jewish right to not just to self-defense, but to
pre-emptive self-defense— to attacking before being attacked.

But non-Jews must be as passive as petunias if attacked by Jews. If the Goyim failed to
greet the Israelis lovingly, they showed themselves to be terrorist anti-Semites.

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By nemesis2010, June 6, 2010 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

By DaveZx3, June 6 at 6:43 am

”Possibly the only ones putting up with the Jews are the true Christians who see a binding relationship through Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews.  But Christians are hated as well, if not more. ”

The Jesus of the New Testament never existed nor is there any proof that there ever was an Abraham either. Those stories in that compilation of 66 books are mythology. Make believe! That’s what makes all of this senseless murder and human suffering even more absurd.

The United Nations decreed that believers of a religious sect had the rights to a homeland of peoples who had populated that homeland for 2,000 years. How would you feel is they declared you state as rightfully belonging to a religious sect like the Jehovah’s Witnesses or the Wahhabis? If you support that U.N. action against Palestinians you accept the precedent and that same precedent can, one day, be used against you. How would you react to the U.N. basing politics on Harry Potter books?

The American indigenous peoples have much more claim to rights of their homeland than those European “Jews” do to Palestine. Israel existed for only a very short time period and until 1948 there had been no Israel since about 720 BCE. The “Jews” were citizens of the Kingdom of Judea which not only was very small but which has not existed since 70CE. The term “Jew” today, does not indicate a nationality or a race of people but rather adherents to a religion. You cannot possibly believe that the Israelis of the ancient and short-lived kingdom and Jews of the Kingdom of Judea were blue-eyed and white-skinned Europeans?

By gerard, June 6 at 1:15 pm

”It is revealing that almost never does anyone address comments that indicate nonviolence as a mode of action in world affairs.  Does everybody on line here presume it is useless?  Impossible?  Unrealistic? Off the wall? Naive? Possible?”

Presumed useless? No! It is known to be as useless as tits on a boar hog as a tool to effect meaningful and lasting change. Those in power couldn’t care how many of the lower and working classes die. And they are not about to give up their positions of privileges just because those whom they view as being very expendable demand it.

There is no historical evidence to prove that non-violent means accomplishes anything but feely-touchy sensations of righteousness in the minds of the deluded.

Please do not begin bring up that idiot Gandhi. Those actions either were, or resulted in, some of the bloodiest and most violent conflicts of the 20th century.

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By nemesis2010, June 6, 2010 at 11:48 am Link to this comment

By rfidler, June 5 at 5:43 pm

If rockets were fired from your neighbor’s back yard into yours, wouldn’t you find that “provocative”?
I don’t think people who believe in American or Israeli “exceptionalism” take that to mean a license to do whatever, whenever, to whomever.

How would you and your neighbors react if the U.N. decreed that your homes, communities, cities, counties and state were now the property of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and that they had the legal right to dispossess all of you with little or no compensation and its (the U.N.) answer to where would you now go was: “fuck off!”?

Had Europe and America not dumped Europe’s bigotry problem on Palestine we wouldn’t be facing these problems.

By karimguy83, June 5 at 8:04 pm

”I urge all truthdigers not to argue with rfidl anymore, he is a stone age troll with nothing important to say, and if you do, do not be polite to him.Anyone who justifies the starving and bombing of Gaza, deserves nothing but contempt.”

That has to be one of the dumbest comments and recommendations that I’ve ever seen. Rfidler is a conservative for crying out loud. Simply ask him logically based questions and he’ll run off to another topic because he won’t be able to answer them truthfully without destroying his own ideological belief system.

If you can’t destroy conservatives with 90% of your brain dormant you should not be making any comments until you reach puberty.

By rfidler, June 5 at 10:47 pm

” The reason Israel has nukes is for insurance against the day when some weak-kneed US administration will turn its back on them and let them fend for themselves.”

You mean a rational—not weak-kneed—administration that realizes that the rogue state of Israel does not provide us with a single benefit as an ally. And that after, having murdered U.S. servicemen, severely crippling a naval vessel, been caught spying on us several times, years of constant intervention in our internal politics and influencing our foreign policy for their benefit and to our detriment, maybe Israel isn’t a an ally worth having? Is that what you meant to say?

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

Frothus:

You saw a 5x7 booklet, but missed the Israelis getting the shit kicked out of them by the peace-loving aid volunteers, BEFORE the first shot was fired? Now THAT’S selective viewing!

For your characterization of the IDF as murderous thugs to be consistent, moreover, the IDF should have started shooting as soon as it hit the deck of the Irish ship as well. But, inconveniently, they didn’t.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 11:09 am Link to this comment

re:By rfidler, June 6 at 11:20 am

Thanks.

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By felicity, June 6, 2010 at 10:07 am Link to this comment

On a news/talk/analyst TV program this morn Elliot Abrams and Peter Beinhart (sp?) were opining on the Israeli/Turk affair.

Abrams argued that a full investigation by an ‘international court’ of the incident would reveal what REALLY HAPPENED.

Peter replied that Benny N. had refused to sign on to the investigation.

Elliot replied that of course B. refused because everybody knows that the or any Court would be biased against Israel.

So Elliot calls for an investigation and in the next breath denies that a legitimate one can occur.

In my head, Elliot’s argument describes a circle, and in fact the state of Israel has been posing circular arguments since 1948. Logicians and semanticists, where are you?

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

Suggestions:

1. Israel returns to pre-1967 borders in exchange for explicit Palestinian acknowledgement of Israel’s right to exist.

2. Jerusalem becomes a true demilitarized international city and capital for both Israel and Palestine, with major municipal political offices shared by alternating, democratically elected Palestinian and Israeli officials. Holy sites will be administered by respective adherents. Security and administration supervised by the UN.

3. Israel guarantees right of return to all displaced Palestinians born before 1948.

4. The political unification, or lack thereof, of Gaza and the West Bank will be issues to be decided by the Palestinians.

5. Palestine will maintain its own internal and external security.

6. Israel and Palestine will maintain strict neutrality regarding attacks on either by any third party.

I am confident that this proposal will be rejected out of hand by most truthdiggers since most will never accept Israel’s right to exist.

I am hopeful, though, that in the real world, where most people live, that these broad outlines can be a beginning.

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By Ezra Levant, June 6, 2010 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

yet again, israelis have shown they are not even close to being mature enough to belong in the community of nations. they are an out-of-control rogue nation that should have their nationhood stripped away from them. if we leave them to their own devices, this will happen without any outside intervention—that is, if they don’t nuke the world first: the zealots and masada, circa 70 AD

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By FRTothus, June 6, 2010 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

On the raw footage which contained a clip which was
used in the al Jazeera report, there is a shot of a
‘booklet’ of several roughly 5x7, 3-hole, laminated
pages, held together with binder rings, printed with
what appear to be photos and text. It has been
claimed that this was taken from (or dropped by) one
of the Israeli State terrorists during the defense of
the ship.  It is further claimed that this ‘booklet’
contained the names and photographs of ‘activist’
leaders and/or notables the IDF would be pleased to
see silenced if not eliminated.  I have not heard
anything about this in the corporate press (no big
surprise).  I am interested to know who is on that
list, and if it corresponds to those murdered.  Does
anyone have any more info on this?

I must say that I am also terribly ashamed at the US
for its continued support for Israeli war crimes, as
well as this administration’s blindness to our own
war crimes of the last 40 years and more.  I am
ashamed at this country for not escorting aid to
Palestine itself. Why must Turkey do it?  The US is
certainly military strong, as it must be, to enforce
its own injustice, and from a moral perspective,
Israel, as the US’s cop on the beat, becomes entitled
to any and every outrage under the flimsiest claim of
National Security and/or Defense as does its imperial
benefactor.  The weak do not have the right of
defense?  Only the criminals are allowed the use of
deadly force?  I am again ashamed of my country and
its elected corporate whores for its lack of morality
cowardly hiding behind ‘pragmatism’ and ‘moderation’. 
Was there ever such a thing as the Rule of Law?  Who
will enforce the Geneva Conventions against the
empire’s unauthorized use of force, or for crimes of
collective punishment.  Who will restrain empire when
it spoils (as ever) for a fight?

Hamas, democratically elected, is declared a
terrorist organization by the US establishment, both
Left and Right. The designation is suspect, insofar
as ANY people or nation that resists US corporate
goals are terrorists.  The label means nothing when
used by those blind to the massive terrorism done
under the US flag.  As William Blum said, “A
terrorist is someone who has a bomb, but doesn’t have
an Air Force.” What is clear is that 1) the ships
were bringing aid, not weapons, and that any claim of
Israeli self-defense is therefore illegitimate (as
are most of Israel’s claims of self-defense); 2)
Israel would like nothing better than to be rid of
the Palestinians, and seeks to hasten their leaving
by collective punishment (an outlawed crime of war)
and all manner of restrictions and encroachments,
from its very founding, and has made no secret of it. 

I am again and again reminded by such institutional
cruelty and imperial arrogance of how little humanity
has changed over all the centuries, how petty and
deceitful our leaders are, and I wonder what lessons
are to be learned when a people as victimized as the
Jews have been throughout history, establish a State
as venal and ruthless as Israel, supported by an even
more ruthless and venal United States.  What hope
does humanity have?

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By karimguy83, June 6, 2010 at 9:25 am Link to this comment

Ofcourse Gerard, it is very convenient for you to speak about the blame game, when it is Israel that has just executed 9 civilians. You speak of nonviolence, yet it somehow escapes you that the people on the ship,before it was boarded by Israeli pirates, were perfectly peaceful,carrying much needed aid to the people of Gaza.And yes we have a solution, its called boycott the occupier.

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By gerard, June 6, 2010 at 9:15 am Link to this comment

It is revealing that almost never does anyone address comments that indicate nonviolence as a mode of action in world affairs.  Does everybody on line here presume it is useless?  Impossible?  Unrealistic? Off the wall? Naive? Possible? 

Or do people not want to revea their ignorance? Or their resentment against it?  Or ....”

My point is that belaying one side or the other for sins past and present does not seem to be making any change for the better, except as group therapy.  All too few have suggestions for improvement, and those seem not to get discussed either.  Why do we want to go over and over the same blame games?

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By Robert, June 6, 2010 at 7:31 am Link to this comment

The Truth Behind the Israeli Propaganda

By Robert Fisk

June 05, 2010 “The Independent”—I have, of course, been outraged at armed men boarding ships in international waters, killing passengers on board who attempt to resist and then forcing their ship to the hijackers’ home port. I am, of course, talking about the Somali pirates who are preying on Western ships in the Indian Ocean. How dare those terrorists dare to touch our unarmed vessels on the high seas? And how right we are to have our warships there to prevent such terrorist acts.

But whoops! At least the Israelis have not demanded ransom. They just want to get journalists to win the propaganda war for them. Scarcely had the week begun when Israel’s warrior “commandos” stormed a Turkish boat bringing aid to Gaza and shot nine of the passengers dead. Yet by week’s end, the protesters had become “armed peace activists”, vicious anti-Semites “professing pacifism, seething with hate, pounding away at another human being with a metal pole”. I liked the last bit. The fact that the person being beaten was apparently shooting another human being with a rifle didn’t quite get into this weird version of reality.

Turkish family protests that their sons wanted to be martyrs – something which most Turkish family members might say if their relatives had been shot by the Israelis – had been transformed into confirmation that they had been jihadis. “On that aid ship,” a Sri Lankan texted me this week, “I had my niece, nephew and his wife on board. Unfortunately Ahmed (20-year-old nephew) got shot in the leg and now treated (sic) under military custody. I will keep you posted.” He did indeed. Within hours, the press was at his family’s home in Australia, demanding to know if Ahmed was a jihadi – or even a potential suicide bomber. Propaganda works, you see. We haven’t seen a frame of film from the protesters because the Israelis have stolen the lot. No one has told us – if the Turkish ship was carrying such ruthless men – how their terrible plots to help the “terrorists” of Gaza were not uncovered in the long voyage from Turkey, even when it called at other ports. But Professor Gil Troy of McGill University in Montreal – in the rabid Canadian National Post, of course – was able to spout all that gunk about “armed peace activists” on Thursday.

I wasn’t personally at all surprised at the killings on the Turkish ship. In Lebanon, I’ve seen this indisciplined rabble of an army – as “elite” as the average rabble of Arab armies – shooting at civilians. I saw them watching the Sabra and Shatila massacre of Palestinians on the morning of 18 September (the last day of the slaughter) by their vicious Lebanese militia allies. I was present at the Qana massacre by Israeli gunners in 1996 – “Arabushim” (the equivalent of the abusive term “Ayrab” in English), one of the gunners called the 106 dead civilians, more than half of them children, in the Israeli press. Then the Israeli government of Nobel laureate Shimon Peres said there were terrorists among the dead civilians – totally untrue, but who cares? – and then came the second Qana massacre in 2006 and then the 2008-09 Gaza slaughter of 1,300 Palestinians, most of them children, and then…

Well, then came the Goldstone report, which found that Israeli troops (as well as Hamas) committed war crimes in Gaza, but this was condemned as anti-Semitic – poor old honourable Goldstone, himself a prominent Jewish jurist from South Africa, slandered as “an evil man” by the raving Al Dershowitz of Harvard – and was called “controversial” by the brave Obama administration. “Controversial”, by the way, basically means “fuck you”.

There’s doubts about it, you see. It’s dodgy stuff.”

===

Click on link for the rest:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25634.htm

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By Sodium-Na, June 6, 2010 at 7:24 am Link to this comment

In any way one may look at what has taken place between Turkey and Israel,once were allies,Ragab Tyyeb Erdogan,the Prime Minister of Turkey has sounded true to himself in every words he spoke and,indeed,extremely impressive by any standard of measurement in the way he dealt with the Israeli arrogance.

Hence,no wonder the vast majority of the people in the streets of the Arab and Islamic world has made him their hero of the hour. Not a single Arab leader can even come close to Erdogan’s status in admiration!! 

The legal repercusion is loaded against some of the leaders in Israel,only the future may reveal.

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By konnie, June 6, 2010 at 7:23 am Link to this comment

i have read the article and the comments. the hatred jumps off the screen. i have decided there has to be some chemical in the sand over there that drives people insane. these same people can leave that sand and live next door to each other, drive the same streets, and shop the same stores in America and live together peacefully. my solution would be to
declare that whole chunk of land an environmental disaster zone and evacuate all the people for their own safety. close it off for say 1000 years. see if subsequent generations can build up some sort of immunity to this hazzard or create a vaccine.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

Harges:

I agree. The proscription list in ridiculous, and sets Israel up as sadistic teases. I would love to read an Israeli policy rationale document explaining the items on the “yes” and “no” columns.

The flotilla episode’s one success in my view is to have exposed the arbitrary nature of the blockaded items.

It’s Israel’s move.

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By Ed Harges, June 6, 2010 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

re:By rfidler, June 6 at 8:01 am #

rfidler writes:

“I still haven’t read any proof that the cargo did NOT make it to Gaza.”[i/]

The point is not what we know has happened or will happen. We only ever get
Israel’s word on that, anyway, at least in the US.

The point is what can reasonably be expected to happen.

And as I said, there cannot be any reasonable expectation that Israel after inspection
will can convey all cargo, except whatever may be truly dangerous, to Gaza.

And the reason we know that this is the only reasonable expectation is because
Israel’s official list of things not allowed into Gaza is flagrantly packed with all sorts
of things that are utterly harmless and could never have been included by mere
accident, oversight, or overzealous concern for safety.

The list is a picture of the Israeli government’s deliberate, systematic sadism and
hatefulness in trying to maintain the people of Gaza in abject misery.

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By rico, suave, June 6, 2010 at 4:01 am Link to this comment

Harges:

I still haven’t read any proof that the cargo did NOT make it to Gaza. All I’ve read is that the crew was deported back to Turkey. No word on the cargo.

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By DaveZx3, June 6, 2010 at 2:43 am Link to this comment

So much hatred for Jews.  For thousands of years they have been hated in every part of the world, maybe deservedly, I wouldn’t know.

Possibly the only ones putting up with the Jews are the true Christians who see a binding relationship through Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews.  But Christians are hated as well, if not more. 

And who could have guessed that a lone Hebrew, Abraham, after leaving his own family and friends, could single-handledly father such present, world-wide contention over thousands of years ago.  That he could have had this story recorded in the predominant, best selling book of all time, and to have its words play themselves out over the eons to the amazement of those who understand the words in that book.  What were the odds of all this stuff actually happening?  If there was no real Abraham, who could have made up that story thousands of years ago and cause it to play out? 

Who knows, but as the waters of the Euphrates dry up, as they are, the time runs short for that great battle, set to take place in the Jezreel Valley.  The time is definitely growing short.  Only a fool can’t see the writing on the wall.  There are only a few more pieces of the puzzle to be put in place. 

So, Palestine, cry if you must.  But like children playing on the beach, as a tsunami approaches from beyond the horizon, your playground is about to be destroyed.  You can hang around and be destroyed with it, if that is what you want to do.  Jet streams being what they are, you might be safer in South America - far south. 

More intelligent people would see that they are only pawns in the scheme which is playing itself out.  Does anyone love the so-called Palestinians?  Who loves them?  Would the Jew haters of South America take them in? 

The Palestinians are to the Jew haters what labor is to the intellectual elite leftists, a temporary convenient means to their ends.  But don’t expect them to invite you over for dinner. 

As the world’s elite get closer to being able to create their own robotic, sustainable labor, and medical spare parts, do you really think they are making room in their lavish underground nuclear winter habitats for the Palestinians and labor unions or anyone, for that matter?  It will be pay to play, and the opening bid will be at least 100 times the annual salary of anyone I know. 

The elite know what they want the population of the earth to be for their personal sustainability models, and they are marching to that end, as that great book also uncannily marks all these progressions.

But the book also says that in the middle of all these terrible times, the King returns, and He will be the King of the Jews, and He will reign from Jerusalem.  The book says so.  Of course there are other books, but only one seems to be marching to the obvious end.  We will just have to watch and see. 

There is a way out, but man will not take it, because he is full of hatred, and above all other shortcomings, intense hatred is the deadly cancer that consumes men.  You can certainly see it in all these postings.

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By MarthaA, June 5, 2010 at 11:35 pm Link to this comment

Israel is still at war with Palestine’s Hamas, but Palestine’s Hamas wants to recognize the State of Israel and cancel their charter according to the following Breaking News in the Jerusalem Post printed January 21, 2010:  http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=166275  What’s up with this?

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By Ed Harges, June 5, 2010 at 10:13 pm Link to this comment

Rfidler, you pretend that Israel’s list of forbidden items is legitimately meant to
protect Israel from dangerous items, and then you grandly concede that it
might have to be tweaked a bit (“Goodness gracious, how did chocolate
and cilantro get on there? What an unfortunate oversight!....”).

But come on—the list of banned items is full of things so obviously not
related to any conceivable security concern, that no one can miss its real
purpose: to keep the people of Gaza in abject misery.

THAT is why Israel’s promise to convey the cargo - after inspection and
removal of any weapons of other truly dangerous things - CANNOT be believed
by anyone with any brains.

Israel’s intent here is 100% guaranteed malicious and hateful.

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By gerard, June 5, 2010 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

Consider this:  If the first Gaza Aid ship had been manned by fewer people, all trained in nonviolent action, disarming the Israeli soldiers by welcoming them without resistance—mature responses consciously disciplined to avoid confrontational attitudes (and not consisting of Palestinians but of other nationals) the Israeli violence might have been avoided because the atmosphere would have completely and intentionally, thoughtfully discouraged it. 

  If the cargo had been thoroughly inspected before setting sail, (or at some neutral point en route) by neutrals and Israeli representation, that would have verified the innocent intentions and given no grounds for suspicion.

If a contingent of liberal non-Israeli Jews had been strongly represented among those on board ...

If advance publicity had been issued worldwide describing the above intentions and discipline ..

If, if, if ... Recognition that the way to avoid confrontation is by taking all possible measures ahead of time to be open, non-belligerent and free from fear and negative expectations, is absolutely essential—and must be thoroughly learned, as habitual attitudes and expectations militate against such an unorthodox approach. New, creative tactics have to be carefully understood, worked out and publicized clearly because as things stand now, all everybody understands is violence and more violence, piled on top of fear on top of hate. 
  It’s time for a new, radically different approach to solutions.

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By PatrickHenry, June 5, 2010 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment

We need one hundred blockade runners going through at one time.

It would drive the IDF batshit.

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By Howard, June 5, 2010 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

Right on, Peter Knopfler !!!!

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By nahida, June 5, 2010 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

People are no longer be fooled by hasbara propagandists:

Worth reading:

The Jewish Genocide of Armenian Christians

http://www.jewishracism.com/Jewish_Genocide_Enlarged.pdf

.

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By Peter Knopfler, June 5, 2010 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment

SEE THAT out of 8 ships only one were a ship of violent activists or Islamic brotherhood, all 8 are ship of fools but only violence on one, great record only 1 of 8. Now that ONE and 7 others proves Israel is right at war rules, you don`t like the war, no rockets no blockade, no ship of fools. All the rest is SCHEER nonsense. Never Again STANDS. Who cares about chocolate when rockets are flying, Russia Iran, North Korea USA, TURKEY, and many other countries would have bombed the ships, or dust crop them with agent orange, like America in Vietnam. 9 killed, doesn`t come close to the 46 died by N.Korea attack, what did you say! nothing, or everyday last month Drone killings by USA, I CAN`T HEAR YOU! Double standard AGAIN! Turkey still will not admit to killing 1.5 million Armenians, I can`t hear you ! SAY WHAT! nothing, World did nothing Clinton nothing about Rwanda 875,000 butchered people yet 9 turks are a massacre. Suicide bombers everyday kill many more than 9 dead, Congo raping and maming and tortured murders EVERYDAY, What I cant hear you. Nothing said. 20, 000 people dead on the Mexican American border, 75% like congo raped torture, butchered at the door step of America, by Mexicans and the Mexican ambassador has someting to say about 9 dead from ISRAEL, 20,000 from MEXICO, not even called a massace, no UNITED NATIONS MEETING, why not!  Oh but Israel kills 9 oh massacre, double standard! CAN YOU HEAR ME NOW!

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By nahida, June 5, 2010 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment

.

The most logical and fair solution:


  Helen Thomas to zionists - “Get the hell out of Palestine”


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsU2CeXNoQM


zionists… OUT of Palestine
.

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By JDmysticDJ, June 5, 2010 at 7:05 pm Link to this comment

rfidler

If Saudi Arabia or Jordan attempted to break the “illegal” blockade, what do you think would be Israel’s response?

As a reported ally of Israel, Turkey seems to be the least confrontational place of disembarkation.

You say,

“Once again, I only have questions, not a position –“

Only a moron would expect people on truthdig to believe that statement. It’s laughable to see someone back off from a position, when that position becomes indefensible.

And you conclude your snide, feigned claim of being unfairly attacked by saying.

Why do you, as a Palestinian, put up with being the Arab nigger to the rest of the Arab world?”

No comment necessary, I’d like to comment further, but I’ll restrain myself.

Consider yourself shunned.

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 7:01 pm Link to this comment

nahida:
A rant by Christopher King does not prove your premises.

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nahida's avatar

By nahida, June 5, 2010 at 6:48 pm Link to this comment

.
Illegitimate… Illegitimate… Illegitimate

  http://www.redress.cc/palestine/cking20100606


By Christopher King

Israel’s declaration of independence on 14 May 1948 when the British Mandate ended has no legal validity

“... the United Nations’ acceptance of Israel’s status as a legitimate state is inherently invalid

“The Jews of Palestine cannot conceivably, therefore, invent a country and national identity on land confiscated by armed force from the Palestinian people. It is not possible.”

“they do not wish to live equitably among those Palestinians who have prior and better claim to the land than they. In that case, I would suggest that they might select an agreeable location of about 22,000 square kilometres in the United States.

They could emigrate, drive its American inhabitants out and set up a Jewish homeland there. More land could be taken over later if desired. As the United States has unfailingly endorsed these principles in the case of Palestine it will undoubtedly be in accord. Alternatively, perhaps Muslim Palestinians might do the same. I cannot see what possible objection the United States government might have.”

Read more:


  http://www.redress.cc/palestine/cking20100606

.

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 6:47 pm Link to this comment

diamond:
The reason Israel has nukes is for insurance against the day when some weak-kneed US administration will turn its back on them and let them fend for themselves.

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

jd99:
“Without US funding what would they be?”

Duh! Without US funding Israel would cease to exist.

And that’s exactly the point!!!! Israel’s neighbors want it destroyed. Name for me one country Israel wishes destroyed. Even Bibi Netanyahu has acknowledged the inevitability of two states.

Who’s denying the existence of US aid to Israel? Ok. If it makes you happy, “Let Israel protect itself, with the help of the US.”

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By 39meeting, June 5, 2010 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

@ By rfidler, June 5 at 7:47 pm #

“Please provide me a list of those items that are approved by Israel.”

as you cant google, ill do it for you. the list shows the 81 items allowed, so if its not in that list, it doesnt go through.

only 25% of aid that used to go through, gets through, ( according to israel records ) if thats not a starvation diet, i dont know what is.

http://un-truth.com/israel/israeli-military-now-allows-81-items-into-gaza-strip-for-1-5-million-people

“How much food could be bought for the price of a rocket?”

yeah, so bad that palestinians fire fireworks into their own occupied land isnt it.

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By jd99, June 5, 2010 at 6:25 pm Link to this comment

rfidler rfidler
rfidler rfidler!!!!!

<<Let’s argue all day about what should be on the contraband list, but let Israel
protect itself.>>

<<but let Israel protect itself.>>
<<but let Israel protect itself.>>

If only that could ever happen!  The US gives Israel over 10 billion in cash/year
not counting defense spending above and under the table…
Let Israel protect itself?
Without US funding what would they be?

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

Karim:
“whose only purpose is to prolong the suffering of 1,5 Million people”

Once again, I only have questions, not a position -

Where is the rest of the Arab world? Why weren’t those ships Arab ships instead of Turkish and Irish ships? Why do you, as a Palestinian, put up with being the Arab nigger to the rest of the Arab world?

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

``calm rational debate`` , whose only purpose is to prolong the suffering of 1,5 Million people can kiss my Palestinian ass.

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment

``Where’s the love?``

I dont love you.

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 4:50 pm Link to this comment

diamond:
“Indeed Karimguy83, I second that emotion, in fact all those emotions.”

You’re right again. Why put any effort into calm rational debate when emotion is so much easier to summon.

Keep that impotent rage alive diamond. It appears that’s all you got going for you.

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment

karimguy83:

“Why don’t Arab countries ship goods to Gaza?” I don’t know. That’s why I asked. Do you know? It seems Turkey and Ireland feel they can give it a go. Why not Saudi Arabia?

“Because Israel is the one blocking all goods to Gaza.” Is that true? If ALL goods are banned, why did diamond go to the trouble to list coriander, etc? Why didn’t he just say “all goods are banned”? Which is it?

“Anyone who justifies the starving and bombing of Gaza, deserves nothing but contempt” Show me a post where I justified starving and bombing Gaza.

“...ships that have been send (sic) back by Israel…” Where they sent back? The crew were, but the cargo? Do you have evidence of that?

“Your typical Zionist nationalist mind always ties supposed ethnic groups together” Is that true?  Are you an expert in the Zionist nationalist mind? What are your credentials?

“And one more thing, you disgusting little Zionist cockroach…” Karim, Karim, buddy! Where’s the love?

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:43 pm Link to this comment

Sorry for the typos.Corrected some.

I think the main reason for the corruption, that is eating Israeli society and democracy, is the absolutely parasitic relationship with the United States. Never before has a small, largely irrelevant country, like Israel, owned so much influence, cultural and political,on a superpower. The problem is, that it is the United States that is the superpower, the host, and it is Israel,the parasite,feeding on the host. One of the reasons Israel is so astounding in its arrogance and ridiculously self harming behaviour, is that the absolutely entangled relationship with the United States, where an Israeli Prime Minister can give the president of the United States orders, has left it with the pathological illusion, that it is in fact the super power, not the United States. Israel has forgotten, that this power is illusionary and rests largely on the ``good will`` of American Jews. If they choose to drop Israel, there will be nothing Israel can do to restore its influence. Israel is a ridiculous mini empire,lording it over Gaza.Very impressive indeed.It is the United States States, which is so powerful,that it can invade countries, torture, flount international law and get away with its.Israel, thinking itself a super power, wants to do the same.Good luck.

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

I think, the main reason for the corruption, that is eating Israel society and democracy, is the absolutely parasitic relation ship with the United States. Never before has a small, largely irrelevant country, like Israel, had so much influence, cultural and political,on a superpower. The problem is, that it is the United States that is the superpower, the host, and it is Israel that is the parasite,feeding on the host. One of the reasons ,I think, Israel is so astounding in its arrogance and ridiculously self harming behaviour, is that the absolutely entangled relationship with the United States, where an Israeli Prime Minister can give the president of the United States orders, has left it with the pathological illusion, that it is the super power, not the United States. Israel has forgotten, that this power is illusionary and rests largely on the ``good will`` of American Jews. If they choose to drop Israel, there will be nothing Israel can do to restore its influence. Israel is a ridiculous mini empire,lording it over Gaza.Very impressive indeed.It is the United States States, which is so powerful,that it can invade countries, torture, flount international law and get away with its.Israel, thinking itself a super power, wants to do the same.Good luck.

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By nahida, June 5, 2010 at 4:25 pm Link to this comment

.

The most logical and fair solution: everyone goes home


  Helen Thomas to zionists - “Get the hell out of Palestine


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsU2CeXNoQM

.

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

And one more thing, you disgusting little Zionist cockroach. I absolutely urge the Palestinians not to stop shooting rockets till the blockade is over.In fact, build bigger and better rockets.The Gazans owe it to themselves, after more then 40 years of hell on earth. They should tell the whole hypocritical world, that they are human and dammit, being human means having the right to resist. Does that outrage you? Now think for a moment of the far more horrendous crimes against a defenceless people you yourself justify.

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By diamond, June 5, 2010 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

Indeed Karimguy83, I second that emotion, in fact all those emotions. Israel’s inhumanity is well known to those who care to know but to Rfidler Israel’s atrocities are just it’s way of ‘defending itself’. From what? They have nuclear weapons and an eight hundred pound gorilla standing behind them (good ol’ USA) so exactly what is going to invade them? They’ve already got 70% of the land the Palestinians once occupied but they won’t be satisfied until they’ve to it all and anyone who stands in their way will be annihilated, humiliated and exterminated. That’s what’s really going on in Gaza: the Warsaw Ghetto on steroids.

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

I urge all truthdigers not to argue with rfidl anymore, he is a stone age troll with nothing important to say, and if you do, do not be polite to him.Anyone who justifies the starving and bombing of Gaza, deserves nothing but contempt.

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By karimguy83, June 5, 2010 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment

You unbelievable moron, didnt your mother ever teach you the difference between stupid and criminal? Why dont Arab countries ship goods to Gaza?I just cant believe, people are actually that thick.Because Israel is the one blocking all goods to Gaza.Why dont Arab countries ship goods to Gaza?What on Earth do you think was on these ships,ships that have been send back by Israel? Oh, was it because these goods werent from Arab countries? Your typical Zionist nationalist mind always ties supposed ethnic groups together, therefore Arabs should be with Arabs, Jews with Jews and so on. Humanity doesnt matter in your thinking. So Israel is not responsible, why help Arabs when they dont help each other? You have a stone age mentality. You freak.

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By rico, suave, June 5, 2010 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment

diamond:
As I said in my response to Ed Harges, we can totally agree that the list of proscribed goods is patently stupid. OK!!! I concede the point already!!

Please provide me a list of those items that are approved by Israel. Then explain to me why those items aren’t being shipped by the megaton from Saudi Arabia, the UAE and Egypt, etc. CHRIST!! How many Palestinians are there? Five million? The rest of the Arab world could give the Palestinians the lives of kings if they wanted to. The Palestinians are the blacks of the Arab world. They’re pawns in the new Great Game.

The Israelis have no scheme to starve Palestinians to death for pete’s sake!

And why, oh why, do you give Palestinians so little credit for their ability to fend for themselves? Hamas certainly has the ability to allocate their meagre resources differently. How much food could be bought for the price of a rocket?

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