heterochromatic,

If you’re interested: Below you’ll find what Tamir Pardo reportedly said this past Tuesday.

“What is the significance of the term existential threat? Does Iran pose a threat to Israel? Absolutely. But if one said a nuclear bomb in Iranian hands was an existential threat, that would mean that we would have to close up shop and go home. That’s not the situation. The term existential threat is used too freely.” - Dagan has argued that Israel should only resort to military force “when the knife is at its throat and begins to cut into the flesh.”

This is a far cry from saying Iran is of no threat to Israel. Particularly in light of the fact that Pardo clearly states that Iran is “Absolutely” a threat. - The same goes for Meir Dagan.

I agree with all of the above. Iran is indeed a threat, HOWEVER, in my opinion Netanyahu is playing-up this ‘existential threat’ in order to drive up support for a military strike against Iran’s enrichment and ballistic missile programs.

Rehmat,Iran threatens its neighbors.

I’m sorry, prosefights, I don’t
understand your question.

By prosefights, December 29 at 2:44 pm

Excellent read from your links.  I read for more than an hour and am ready to read much more.  When to many of the links within the links.

The inks are really Germain to this article and discussion.

Amazing

Iran, non-nuclear or nuclear is no threat to either US or Israel. Former Mossad chief Meir Dagan has said it several time since his retirement. The new Mossad chief Tamir Pardo made a similar statement last week. Even Israel’s defense minister Ehud Barak said a few months ago that Iran poses no threat to Israel or its neighbors. Rep. Ron Paul has said the same thing.

However, the anti-Muslim Zionist hawks both in the US and Israel want to make Iran another Iraq without worrying about the consequences for Israel and US interests in the region. Furthermore, Iran is no Libya or Afghanistan. Last month, former British foreign minister Lord David Owen wrote in UK daily Mirror that Islamic Iran has become the most powerful country in the Middle East including Israel.

http://rehmat1.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/lord-owen-iran-is-the-most-powerful-country-in-the-region/

<b>Marian Griffith, December 29 at 12:45 am:

@Anarcissie
—-objective observer—being an ‘objective observer’ you should let us know how you know so much about intra-Muslim affections.  The case of Saudi Arabia is especially peculiar, in that a large proportion of the population have no stake in or influence on the leadership of the state.—-

Well, to begin with he might have read non-USA newspapers, or watched BBC World News. Those tend to produce a bit more complete, coherent and less(!) biased news and information. ...

And yet The Age-Old Hatreds Between The Sunnis And The Shiites is one of the staples of the MSM, isn’t it?  Or is it?  I don’t know; you’re the experts.  My forays into that realm are few, but that’s the impression I get.

Hello IMax,

Any suggestions on how to get

In July 1980, Zbigniew Brzezinski of the United States met Jordan’s King Hussein in Amman to discuss detailed plans for Saddam Hussein to sponsor a coup in Iran against Khomeini.

settled peacefully?

KGB likely-employee [Semionoff/Kirsov] emailed. “Tell us, what happened to the Iranians?” And sent photos from balcony of flat in Moscow.

Maybe below described?

http://orlingrabbe.com/speccoll.htm

There are some very upset people all over the world for the US apparently instigating the Iraq/Iran war? 

This may be a title 18 violation of law?

Sunday, January 07, 2001 5:52 PM

Dear Friend,

we saw some of these documents

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/8327/buehlerpayne.html but we would like your
commentary about what happened and all circumstances so we can post it on our website but as well as a report to the mailing lists.

With thanks

On behalf of SMCCDI

A. Zoubin ( Information Committee) http://www.iran-daneshjoo.org/

Wednesday, January 17, 2001 7:10 PM

Dear Friend,

A stand for Ahmad but why this question?

Again. Any suggestions on what to do next?

Thursday December 29, 2011 17:35

Sauder described a technicolor dream of a nuclear carrier lying dead in the water, listing, smoke rising from it, and the crew worried by possibility of a nuclear reactor meltdown.

I was a listener. And paid for Sauder’s breakfast.

I got some scary emails in Clallam Bay, WA which ended with he never wished to hear from me again.

LocalHero,

It would please you to see 10,000 U.S. sailors and soldiers die?

If the U.S. were to withdraw from the region tensions would diffuse and objective thinking would return.

We don’t belong there.

FRTothus,- “the animosity, if it exists, between the Persians and the Arabs is not significantly different from other ethnic animosities..”

-

I never suggested this was different.  I only spoke to how the distrust is real.

Are you suggesting a global conspiracy against the government of Iran?

‘Nothing would warm my heart more this holiday season than seeing a couple of US carriers lying at the bottom of the Persian Gulf.’

Dr Richard Sauder first visited in about 1998. We thought he was from the government at that time.

Sauder and Payne had breakfast at the Frontier in 2008.

Sauder first related his technicolor dream of what he thought would happen if Iran is attacked. [US Navy involved]

Sauder came across as a complete nut case asking Payne about knowledge of tunnels at NSA.

We were in a listen mode with Sauder.

Sauder may have been sent by the government?

http://www.prosefights.org/nmlegal/senatorpayne/admiralpayne.htm#sauder

FRT~~~ you go right ahead and demonstrate that the opinions of the citizens of
the Gulf States don’t agree with their government and I’ll be quite pleased.

I’m of the opinion that the citizens of Iran don’t much agree with the actions of
the theocratic regime, but can’t really prove that out.

@heterochromatic

You make the same mistake as so many belligerent propagandists and Western war-mongers of confusing the dictators with the population.  The opinions of the dictators, the Kings, the Foreign Ministers, the Princes, et al., are not opinions shared by the majorities within their own countries, nor are they shared among the vast majority of the rest of the world’s population, despite what their “leaders” think or say, or what the Western corporate press, which never saw a war they didn’t like, selectively reports.

Dec 6, 2011

~~~” Saudi Arabia may have to arm itself with nuclear weapons to counter
threats from Iran and Israel, a former Saudi intelligence chief said yesterday.
Prince Turki al-Faisal, who is still influential despite no longer holding public
office, said the move may be necessary ‘as a duty to our country and people’.
He noted that Israel is widely assumed to have a nuclear arsenal and that Iran,
Riyadh’s arch-rival in the Middle East, is believed by many to be developing
such weaponry.
‘If our efforts, and the efforts of the world community, fail to convince Israel to
shed its weapons of mass destruction and to prevent Iran from obtaining
similar weapons, we must, as a duty to our country and people, look into all
options we are given, including obtaining these weapons ourselves,’ he told a
conference in Riyadh on Monday.         
The remarks were covered in the Saudi press today. ”

Saudi Arabia may have to arm itself with nuclear weapons to counter threats
from Iran and Israel, a former Saudi intelligence chief said yesterday.
Prince Turki al-Faisal, who is still influential despite no longer holding public
office, said the move may be necessary ‘as a duty to our country and people’.
He noted that Israel is widely assumed to have a nuclear arsenal and that Iran,
Riyadh’s arch-rival in the Middle East, is believed by many to be developing
such weaponry.
‘If our efforts, and the efforts of the world community, fail to convince Israel to
shed its weapons of mass destruction and to prevent Iran from obtaining
similar weapons, we must, as a duty to our country and people, look into all
options we are given, including obtaining these weapons ourselves,’ he told a
conference in Riyadh on Monday.         
The remarks were covered in the Saudi press today. 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070704/Saudi-Arabia-
need-nuclear-weapons-fend-threat-Iran-Israel-says-
prince.html#ixzz1hxpiBTGq

Carson ~~~~” The notion that the people of the Arab States in the Middle East
fear Iran more than the US and Israel is pure Western Propaganda.” ~~~

Just one of many refutations, Cliff

“Attack
King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia urged the United States to attack Iran to destroy
its nuclear programme, according to US documents leaked by WikiLeaks and
published Sunday by daily newspapers.
According to a leaked US cable, published by the New York Times, King
Abdullah bin Abd al-Aziz made the call during an April 2008 meeting with US
Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker and US General David Petraeus.
“He told you to ‘cut off the head of the snake’,” Saudi Arabia’s ambassador to
Washington, Adel al-Jubeir, told the US embassy in Riyadh two days after the
high-level talks, according to the State Department memo.
“The King, Foreign Minister, Prince Muqrin, and Prince Nayif all agreed that the
Kingdom needs to cooperate with the US on resisting and rolling back Iranian
influence and subversion in Iraq,” the memo said.
“The King was particularly adamant on this point, and it was echoed by the
senior princes as well. Al-Jubeir recalled the King’s frequent exhortations to the
US to attack Iran and so put an end to its nuclear weapons program.”
But the memo goes on to say other Saudi officials were more cautious about the
need for military action, with Foreign Minister Prince Saud al-Faisal and
intelligence chief Prince Muqrin bin Abd al-Aziz pushing for sanctions.
“The Foreign Minister, on the other hand, called instead for much more severe
US and international sanctions on Iran, including a travel ban and further
restrictions on bank lending,” the memo said.
“Prince Muqrin echoed these views, emphasizing that some sanctions could be
implemented without UN approval. The Foreign Minister also stated that the use
of military pressure against Iran should not be ruled out,” the memo.
The leaked memo could prove embarrassing to Saudi Arabia which, while
known to be nervous of Iran’s alleged nuclear weapons programme, has not
publicly called for Western military action against its powerful neighbour.”

http://www.arabtimesonline.com/NewsDetails/tabid/96/smid/414/ArticleID/1
62465/reftab/96/t/Saudis-said-to-urge-Iran-hit/Default.aspx

Iran’s government is loathed throughout the GCC and beyond.

Iranian TV Shows War Games, US Carrier
Images from Iranian TV show its naval forces conducting
war games in the Persian Gulf near the strategic Strait
of Hormuz. Also broadcast: aerial footage showing a US
aircraft carrier steaming through the Gulf. 
http://www.newslook.com/videos/386012-iranian-tv-shows-
war-games-us-carrier?autoplay=true

@ IMax

The “chasm of distrust” is indeed quite old, and “runs deep”, but the same can be said of any group of “us” versus group of “them”.  In this respect, the animosity, if it exists, between the Persians and the Arabs is not significantly different from other ethnic animosities, and is therefore quite irrelevant.

As far as the “dictates” of the United Nations Security Council, or the make-up of those designated as representing the United States, China, Russia, Britain or France. much evidence exists that each of these countries’ populations are quite opposed to what their officials, in the UN Security Council and elsewhere, see fit to decide, impose, or dictate.  To use the United States as an example, the policy choices decided upon by its officials are diametrically opposed to those of the citizenry, who, as shown by extensive polling over the decades, are rarely if ever represented by those officials, nor are the citizenry’s desires reflected in policy, domestic or foreign.

“Nearly the entire world fears Iran…” Not if the “entire world” is comprised of the majority of its people, but such a designation is true enough if by “nearly the entire world” you mean that minority of the ruling elite and the oligarchs, who, as a rule, see the general populations as the enemy, a view long-held by those in power, both here and abroad.

“Most especially Iran’s immediate neighbors.” ??? Again, true enough if the opinion of the neighboring dictatorships is the only one taken into account, but the fact is that the populations of Iran’s immediate neighbors, by a very wide margin (70-80%+), do not share this view in the least, and view not Iran, but the US, as a much greater and much more immediate threat, and believe the region would be much safer indeed were Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.

By FRTothus, December 29 at 10:42 am

You are correct FRTothus.  The notion that the people of the Arab States in the Middle East fear Iran more than the US and Israel is pure Western Propaganda.

Iran has not started a War against ANYBODY since before the United States or Israel came into being.  There was no worry about the non-Arab state of Iran when there were Nuclear Facilities being built there by the United States.  It was only after the Iranian people rose up and overthrew the most brutal Dictator ever in the Middle East -  The SHAH of Iran, who was installed by the United States after the U S. and Britain overthrew the Government of Iran in 1953 to get control of their Oil and Gas.  There was no problem from the US Viewpoint with the murderous regime of the SHAH as he was killing a million of his own people.

But our War Mongers want to get control of that oil and Gas again and our Corporatist Government is ready to spill your blood and the Iranians blood to get it back.  For them WAR=Profit.

You will find people on here who will beat the drums for war against Iran.  Some are just mislead believers and some are trolls.  You will need to make up your mind about who is which.

Nothing would warm my heart more this holiday season than seeing a couple of US carriers lying at the bottom of the Persian Gulf.

They make great reefs!

FRTothus,

The chasm of distrust between Arabs and Persians is centuries old and runs deep.  I’m confident you’ll find the same as you look into the matter.

-

There are solid reason why the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council makes demands on Iran.  It’s both arrogant and myopic to believe the United States dictates to China, Russia, Britain and France.

Some will insist these current events has only to do with the relationship between the United States (MIC) and Iran.  This is not a narrative that reflects reality.  Nearly the entire world fears Iran as a nuclear power.  Most especially Iran’s immediate neighbors.

@IMax

You may very well be correct, though there is no evidence of which I am aware that supports such a view.  However, the cables you cite display the opinions of the Middle Eastern dictators, not the population, as revealed by the polls conducted by the Brookings Institution, among others.

Oh the hand wringing at the United States Department of starting Wars.  Was it Issac Newton that observed ” For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction” and combine that with Pavlov who casually observed something like “If you kick a cornered dog you might expect that he is likely to fight back by biting you”.

This is exactly what the United States wants from Iran - a reaction to the U S Governments Provocations.

We need a war going to replace the Iraq and Afghan resource grabs.  Plus as we withdraw the troops to start pumping OUR oil and building OUR pipelines we have let the War Industry profits dwindle.  The U S Corporate Vampires are demanding a new source of Blood to sustain their profits. There’s plenty of American blood left to spill and who cares about Iranian blood.

Since Iran has not started a war since before the United States was founded, our War Department needs to get busy starting one, Iran probably won’t start one.

Besides there’s lots of Oil and Gas in Iran, that needs to be developed by the U S Corporations.

iranians, please, let’s have less energy: nuclear, coal, gas, oil!
no, no, i am not being hypocritical for not begging u.s to also use less
energy or produce fewer electric toothbrushes, can openers, ipads, etc.
i am just being afraid. that’s why i don’t speak about it.
this piece is open for comment! dumbest and wisest both welcome! i am
an egalitarian! tnx

FRTothus,

I believe, if you look more broadly, you’ll find that you’re narrowing your sights a bit.  It’s not only Arab ‘leadership’ who fear Iranian ambitions.  Arab distrust of Persians runs through the Arab soul.

@IMax

Corrected for accuracy:

The 2010 Wikileaks disclosure of U.S. State Dept. cables clearly display Arab [dictator’s] fears of Iranian ambitions to build a “Persian Empire in the 21st Century”. These leaked cables also show [the dictators of] Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the UAE and Bahrain as among [dictators] strongly urging the U.S. to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities. These cables reveal the fear of Iran [by dictators] in the Arab world.

@objective observer

The low opinion of Iran’s neighbors toward Iran that
you cite is only among the dictators of the Middle
Eastern countries (who themselves are were largely
installed and are currently supported and armed by
the US), not among their population.  Polling (by the
Brookings Institution among others, as Jacques has
pointed out) of the populations shows that the
perception of the majority of people living there
(80+%) rightly consider the US/UK and the attack dog
Israel, not Iran, to be the greatest threat to peace
in the region.  In this observation, they are
objectively correct.  Though the so-called Western
“free press” keeps such facts secret from us, the
majority there knows that the US has no interest in
peace, regularly disregards international law,
reflexively resorts to force and violence, and seeks
control of the resources of the area for the benefit
of Western imperialist aims, profits, and control.
Our Saudi Arabian “ally” makes Iran look like a human
rights paradise.

The 2010 Wikileaks disclosure of U.S. State Dept. cables clearly display Arab fears of Iranian ambitions to build a “Persian Empire in the 21st Century”. These leaked cables also show Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the UAE and Bahrain as among nations strongly urging the U.S. to destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities. These cables reveal the fear of Iran in the Arab world.

Iran is not Arab

Most Westerners are under the false impression that Israel is the most feared state in the region. A more in-depth look, past Western media, show Iran to be more feared than even the Jewish State. And it’s certainly correct to assume the regional oil producing states wish the Strait of Hormuz to remain open.

In this conversation it may also prove useful to recall that, beginning in January 1998, the Russian government took a number of steps to increase its oversight of entities involved in dealings with Iran and other states of proliferation concern. In 1999 it passed a new export control law intended to strengthen restrictions on the export of weapons of mass destruction, missile systems, and related technologies to Iran. - Apparently Russia too concerns itself with Iranian ambitions.

It’s incorrect to frame Iran’s latest threat to close maritime oil routes (it’s not the first time), as Iran V The United States. Nothing could be further from reality.

“Nonetheless, Cosgriff’s demeanor angered Cheney, according to the former senior intelligence official. But a lesson was learned in the incident: The public had supported the idea of retaliation, and was even asking why the U.S. didn’t do more. The former official said that, a few weeks later, a meeting took place in the Vice-President’s office. ‘The subject was how to create a casus belli between Tehran and Washington,’ he said.”

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/06/09/some-stunt/

Gee, you spend 56 years trying to control a country through puppets, proxy wars, economic sanctions, surrounding them with a nuclear armed Army, Navy, and Air Force, start a clandestine war against them, and begin using the same banal propaganda on them that you used to rationalize your last war, and they get pissy. 

The nerve of some people!

objective observer—being an ‘objective observer’ you should let us know how you know so much about intra-Muslim affections.  The case of Saudi Arabia is especially peculiar, in that a large proportion of the population have no stake in or influence on the leadership of the state.

One of the oldest contingency plans on the shelf.

The military needs to bring the fleets home and cut down the flying hours, the taxpayer needs a rest.

The US is spoiling for a war, any war, and as always, picks on those who are in no position to defend themselves. Iran has every right to develop nuclear power, and given the continuing belligerence and threats made by the US and its attack dog Israel, would be stupid not to be pursuing the deterrence of a nuclear weapon. Iran has not attacked anyone, which cannot be said for US or Israel, and Iran’s “threat” consists of nothing more than seeking peaceful relations and increased trade with its neighbors.  The US and Israel, on the other hand, have a proven track record of aggression and war crimes, regularly target civilian populations, and have shown themselves to be the true international terrorists.

“The real threat to U.S. military power is nuclear proliferation, because if every little country has nuclear weapons it becomes very tricky for the United States to engage in military action.”
(Immanuel Wallerstein)