And I say- what difference does it make to the dying, the orphans and the homeless, whether their salvation comes from “violent” or “non-violent” means?
It doesn’t.

You could not be more wrong,YG, at least in my opinion. Violence is the tool of the establishment. Resorting to violence plays directly into the hands of the established power structure, allows them to justify violence in return, violence which they are rather well prepared and also makes for great headlines. I would remind you of the ravings of Rico/Imax, endlessly ranting about the ‘violence’ of the Occupy movement as proof of that.

Wow it’s happened so fast. I’d say from Reagan on. I believe the “plan” was hatched around the same time and has moved forward in fits and steps to where we are now. 9/11 was the gift the oligarch were waiting for to move the plan along. Notice how one piece of legislation supports the next. Can you guess what the next one will be about? I think there should be a temporary pause in legislation now to see if they have all the tools needed. We’ve got lots of work to do to take back what we have allowed to slip away. Hopefully at not too great a peril. Okay pitter patter lets get at ‘er.

YG~~~~ which are your top three violent revolutions?
which produced the best new societal structures?

Ardee,

I’m advocating for resistance movements NOT to eat themselves.  NOT to undermine legitimate forms of resistance performed by people willing to put their lives and liberties on the line. 

Gandhi said:
“What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?”

And I say- what difference does it make to the dying, the orphans and the homeless, whether their salvation comes from “violent” or “non-violent” means? 
It doesn’t.

Gerard-

“All this takes nothing away from people who have used violence and become heroes (though they usually destroy their own souls in the process)”

I have nothing against you, but this is the kind of bs that pisses me off. 
You know nothing of their souls.  Bhagat Singh’s soul was not destroyed.  Malcolm X’s soul was not destroyed.  John Brown’s soul was not destroyed.  Harriet Tubman’s soul was not destroyed. 
You like non-violence.  That’s great.  It doesn’t make you superior or closer to god.  White-washing the Arab Spring protests does them a disservice.  The people who fought and gave their lives to open the way for peaceful, “non-violent” demonstrations are to be commended.  They pushed the riot police out of the neighborhoods so the “peaceful” people could demonstrate.  They took the bullets. 

“It is obvious that those who were injured or killed, those buildings that were invaded, were NOT the result of nonviolent action. And those tens of thousands who lived to protest the next day and the next were NOT victims of violence. Had violence been used, the toll would have been much higher.”

How convenient.  Only “violent” people were injured or killed during the Arab Spring.  That’s factually inaccurate and just plain silly.  I guess the civil rights protesters that had dogs set on them were only the violent ones.  Or the Indians who were beaten by the British were only the violent ones.  Or the American Indians who were displaced and murdered were only the violent ones. 
Power does not respect your tactics.  Power only respects power.

Gerard, seems like more Amerikans will need to have their Walmarts, teevees and icecream taken away before we see millions occupying the temples of idol worship ( banks ).

YoungGringos: Consider these facts:
  1. The masses in the Middle East who have turned out to overthrow dictatorships have consisted of millions of people,(not just thousands)—children and old people, city and country—unarmed, and most never even picked up a stone or a stick.
  2. They all went up against heavily armed military resistance. All they could do was retreat when fired upon, and appear again the next day, and the next etc.
  3. In massive situations like this there will always be provocateurs who create violence in order to “spoil” non-violence. Or simply people who cannot control their behavior and react. Also there will be some who believe violence is “inevitable” and so justify, even anticipate, violent response.
  4. Information on nonviolent resistance has been spreading rapidly in the Middle East; nobody knows how much or to what extent it has been effective, but many protest leaders have deliberately advocated it as the best way. This is the first time in history for such widespread attempts to employ nonviolent revolt.
  5. It is obvious that those who were injured or killed, those buildings that were invaded, were NOT the result of nonviolent action. And those tens of thousands who lived to protest the next day and the next were NOT victims of violence. Had violence been used, the toll would have been much higher.
  6. All this takes nothing away from people who have used violence and become heroes (though they usually destroy their own souls in the process). It’s that violence is becoming more and more destructive, less and less effective, and people everywhere are looking for a more humane, less destructive and retroactive alternative to bring about needed social and political changes.

rick1960, what thinking and logical Americans are up against is a vast wasteland of conditioned and manipulated minds.. called Amerikans.

If only folks would unplug themselves from the deluge of economic slavery they don’t know they are in. 

Does the fish know he is in a fishbowl? 

Does the Amerikan know their rights have been systematically usurped for decades?

We ( those who see clearly the writing on the wall ) are up against a horde of ignorant, idol worshiping, intimidated and scared dimwits. 

What will be most interesting ( and bloody ) will be the roundup of all the intellectuals, dissidents ( called terrorists now by UNlawful definition ) and anyone who smells the Nazi leather boot stomping on their face…. well, what will be interesting will be the detention of such as these as happened in Germany before us, in Russia before them… and throughout south Amerika last century.

Jay C~~~~~~ that Obama didn’t even manage to close down Guantanamo should
put a dent in your optimism.

there may not be a better choice on the ballet come November, but that doesn’t
mean we have to get happy over Obama.

All of them from Truman will go down as dictators.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=C9tSRC5rW_0

What else is to be expected from a man who looks and thinks like a mouse.

I was hoping I would find some rational discussion on this site and in these forums but it appears most of the comments are from extremely irrational people that are not capable of understanding the limits of a democratic system. I’m not 100% happy with everything Obama has done but I’m reasonably pleased with what he has done with what we have given him (a Republican-controlled House and a tiny majority in the Senate.  Give him a majority and you’ll see what he can do.

Not even the Dalai Lama could satisfy Human Rights Watch. He has already done much but if we re-elect him for a second term he will do so much more. Don’t forget Don’t Ask Don’t Tell.  Don’t forget what a President Romney or Gingrich would do.  So don’t forget to vote.

YoungGringos, December 15 at 12:59 pm

So then, are you advocating for such violence?

As I said on another thread…Take a good look, people: this is the final nail in the coffin of posse comitatus.  God help us all.

worm~~~ agree with him about what?

Obama argued against this crap.

We don’t even have a Republican Supreme Court to over turn this madness.

We have a neo-con, right-wing, fascist Supreme Court that’s sure to agree with
Obama.

Amazing ......

YG~~~ I hear what you’re saying about wanting it all and having a willingness to
mix it up in order to get it.

calculate carefully, YG. most carefully.

to live outside the law, you got to be more than honest, you got to be real quick
and real clever…...

and good luck to you. you’ll need a bit of that as well.

hetero-

I guess it all depends on your threshold. 
Some folks will suffer injustice. Some won’t.  Lincoln would have been happy to retain the slave system.  John Brown gave his life to dismantle it. 
 
I’m not against “non-violent” action.  It can be very effective. I believe, like Derrick Jensen, that we need it all.
It always appears like non-violence is effective because those in power would much rather work with a conciliatory “non-violent” movement than a militant movement.  America would rather negotiate with MLK than Malcolm X or the Black Panthers.  Britain would rather deal with Gandhi than Bhagat Singh. That doesn’t mean militant action didn’t help push the oppressors into negotiations.

Rocky Anderson

Enough said.

YG~~~~ nope. the pre-set to non-violene does not have to stop. it must stay.

Violence must be shown to be justified prior to employing it as part of public
protest.

Sometimes the resort to violent resistance and direct confrontation is necessary,
but the case for it should be amply demonstrated before the blood gets spilled.

Gerard-

“Here’s hoping we can all understand non-violence as rapidly as Arab Spring’s courageous masses.”

You can’t be serious. 

“Street battles unfolded throughout the day Friday, as hundreds of thousands of people streamed out of mosques after noon prayers on Friday in Cairo, Alexandria, Suez and other cities around the country.

By nightfall, the protesters had burned down the ruling party’s headquarters in Cairo, and looters marched away with computers, briefcases and other equipment emblazoned with the party’s logo. Other groups assaulted the Interior Ministry and the state television headquarters, until after dark when the military occupied both buildings and regained control. At one point, the American Embassy came under attack.

Six Cairo police stations and several police cars were in flames, and stations in Suez and other cities were burning as well. Office equipment and police vehicles burned, and the police seemed to have retreated from Cairo’s main streets. Brigades of riot police officers deployed at mosques, bridges and intersections, and they battered the protesters with tear gas, water, rubber-coated bullets and, by day’s end, live ammunition.

With the help of five armored trucks and at least two fire trucks, more than a thousand riot police officers fought most of the day to hold the central Kasr al-Nil bridge. But, after hours of advances and retreats, by nightfall a crowd of at least twice as many protesters broke through. The Interior Ministry said nearly 900 were injured there and in the neighboring Giza area, with more than 400 hospitalized with critical injuries. State television said 13 were killed in Suez and 75 injured; a total of at least six were dead in Cairo and Giza.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/29/world/middleeast/29unrest.html?pagewanted=all

I love Gandhi as much as the next guy, but this liberal preset to so called “non-violence” has got to stop.  Bhagat Singh was just as much a hero of the Indian revolution as Gandhi.  In 2008 he was voted the “Greatest Indian” in a national poll ahead of Gandhi. 
Go figure. An anarchist/Marxist/atheist who killed a cop and threw bombs into a legislative assembly.

berniem~~~ the guy argued against the thing. where the fck do you get to
thinking that you’re posting an apt comment ?

Sieg Heil, Mr. President, Seig Heil!!!!

Her’s the text of the bill….it’s lengthy…...and 1031 and 1032 are way down.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-112s1867es/html/BILLS-112s1867es.htm

it’s not good news.

Have any of the commenters here read provisions 1031 and 1032?

With something this non-rational, you simply have to ask why. This one act alone guarantees that we will not be able to elect another non-white president for at lest 100 years—if the United States exists for another 100 years.  Nothing left but to support the OWS Movement as our last, best hope and help it work out effective strategies. Here’s hoping we can all understand non-violence as rapidly as Arab Spring’s courageous masses.

sorry, folks, about bad news: there are at least 20mln obamas in just
america and worldwide possibly 1 bln.
alas, among them are all generals…. tnx

did anyone expect that MSM, cia, fbi, army, congress, w.h, lawyers,
judges, professors, multimillionaires wld not ok the new law or u.s’ right
to detain people indefinitely?
or spend more money on military? don’t the above twigs and branches of
one tree function in perfect unison—and as per constitutional command?
aka, as cheques and balances. tnx

It’s time to lay off the snakes as a source of derogatory or vilifying analogy Snakes have a strong, rigid spine as much or moreso than any vertebrate group…  barring turtles and tortoises, of course.

And snakes consume their prey whole.. Obama and those like him are eating us up one piece at a time.

Snakes do shed their skin.. as Obama the candidate seems to have done .. to become Obama POTUS.. but for snakes it’s and act of renewal and growth.. Obama has shed his principles.

Snakes are noble creatures in some respect.. since they have no way of altering their expressions or deceiving their prey or enemies.. They are what you see. Unlike Obama. He’s a chimeric figure.. changed and changing to meet his situations.. and also in the aspect that he is illusory .. is not and never could be what his admirers see or hope to see in him.

Adios!

“Education on the value of free speech and the other freedoms reserved by the Bill of Rights, about what happens when you don’t have them, and about how to exercise and protect them, should be an essential prerequisite for being an American citizen — or indeed a citizen of any nation, the more so to the degree that such rights remain unprotected. If we can’t think for ourselves, if we’re unwilling to question authority, then we’re just putty in the hands of those in power. But if the citizens are educated and form their own opinions, then those in power work for us. In every country, we should be teaching our children the scientific method and the reasons for a Bill of Rights. With it comes a certain decency, humility and community spirit. In the demon-haunted world that we inhabit by virtue of being human, this may be all that stands between us and the enveloping darkness.”

- Carl Sagan, 1934 – 1996

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2011/05/18/between-us-and-the-enveloping-darkness/

The man has the backbone of a snake, the morals of Dick Cheney and his one constant is his refusal to keep his word about anything. Coming, as this does, from a supposed constitutional scholar, this is a wretched decision indeed.

He seems increasingly like a one term President to me. Unlike the democratic loyalists who post their one dimensional rants about choosing “the lesser of two evils” I am unafraid of a GOP administration being different from our current GOP administration, or the previous GOP administration either.

A good time to re-evaluate ones choices in the voting booth and find the good sense to vote Green.

Vote Obama off the planet.

@ Dvmx I don’t follow.  Is that a joke?

Man, there is just NO ONE to vote for in 2012.

His Peace Prize is the best practical joke the Nobel Foundation has pulled since Kissinger.

there are gonna be lots of camels with broken backs tonight.