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Ear to the Ground

Florida Pastor Has a Few New Enemies

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Posted on Apr 6, 2011
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Oh good, the nutty Rev. Terry Jones is near our HQ here in Los Angeles. The Florida pastor, who drew widespread ire earlier this month with his Quran-burning and Prophet Muhammad mock trial publicity stunts—sparking deadly protests in Afghanistan days later—arrived at LAX on Tuesday night to spread his toxic message, and he tallied up the death threats coming his way for the local media.  —KA

CBS Los Angeles:

Rev. Terry Jones told reporters he had no plans to burn any more Korans upon his arrival at LAX on Tuesday night, but that he may hold another mock trial for the Islamic prophet Muhammad.

“We’ve had about 400 death threats,” he said, adding that Hezbolla, the Shia Muslim militant group, had put out a “reward out on my head for $2.4 million.”

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A Khokar's avatar

By A Khokar, April 14, 2011 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

Maani,
Thanks for your kind elaboration and to frame it in generic terms.

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By Maani, April 12, 2011 at 10:36 am Link to this comment

A Khokar:

Hi.  The term you are looking for is parthenogenesis: “A form of asexual reproduction found in females, where growth and development of embryos occurs without fertilization by a male.”

It is known to have occurred naturally in insects, crustaceans, reptiles, sharks, and even some birds.  And although it is not known to have occurred naturally in mammals, it has been artificially induced (though it did not produce viable embryos). It has even been artificially induced in vitro with human cells but, again, it did not produce a viable embryo.

Peace.

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By A Khokar, April 12, 2011 at 5:19 am Link to this comment

Taking a lighter side of story of birth of Jesus*; Don’t you think Jesus* mother got conceived like test tube baby…!

Sure; if man can do it; why not the creator of universe can just let produce and meet a certain numbers of chromosomes inside mother’s womb to cause conception.

Reportedly there are certain species and plants known having a bi-sex nature with male stamens and female pistils in single flower. No pollen and stigma business involved and no female and male mating is required.

*peace be upon him

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By Maani, April 11, 2011 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment

Robert:

In discussing Jesus’ immaculate birth, you cite Sura 3:59.  However, the more complete and detailed account is at Sura 3:41-47 (with a truncated version of His ministry at 48-55).

This leads to an interesting theological question.  If Jesus was immaculately conceived - the literal “son” of God, even in Islam - and Muhammad was not, why would Mugammad be considered the greater prophet?

I mean no disrespect in asking this.  It is simply a theological query.

Peace.

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By A Khokar, April 11, 2011 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

OM asked;
[I am asking if Allah expects (Terry Jones) him to be punished for insulting the honor of Islam.]

Most of the countries in the world do have Blasphemy laws which evolve around the insulting of religion, to deliver a hate speech or the desecration of the sacred places and the Holy books but ever since the inception of right of laws about the freedom of speech these have rarely been exercised.

Some of the Muslims countries have fieriest of blasphemy laws in used but these are mostly aimed at persecutions of the minorities and non majority sects like Shias, Bhais and Ahmadies. In Arab Dictatorial regimes it is used against the sects other than of the rulers. Pakistan has the most stringent laws of all; practiced against the offenders of defiling the Quran and is given a life imprisonment (ppc 295b)and death penalty (ppc 295c)for use of derogatory remarks** about Prophet Muhammad [pbuh].

But Quran as such does not sanction any punishment to be awarded to the offenders by the believers or their government bodies. Humiliation of offenders in this world and their punishment in the hereafter is kept by God to Himself.

Some of the verses from Quran specific to the subject are given as under:

[33:56] “Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! You should invoke blessings on him and salute with the salutation of peace.
[33:57] Verily, those who malign Allah and His Messenger — Allah has cursed them in this world and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them an abasing punishment.
[33:58] And those who malign believing men and believing women for what they have not earned shall bear the guilt of a calumny and a manifest sin.
[33:59] O Prophet! tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers that they should draw close to them portions of their outer coverings. That is nearer that they may thus be distinguished and not molested. And Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
[33:60] If the hypocrites, and those in whose heart is a disease, and those who cause agitation in the city, desist not, We shall surely give thee authority over them; then they will not dwell therein as thy neighbours, save for a little while.”

[33:61] Then they will be accursed. Wherever they are found, they will be seized, and cut into pieces.
[33:62] Such has been the way of Allah in the case of those who passed away before, and thou wilt never find a change in the way of Allah.”

From above series of verses we may get clear picture that in any case the punishment as a consequences of maligning ‘Allah and his Prophet’ by the hypocrites and misguided peoples——rests with Allah and this prerogative was not given in the hands of any of group of Muslims even to the Prophet himself, when he was present there.

Verse 61 and 62 is also very much indicative of the fact that Allah is a living God and Allah himself takes care of all such peoples—- who indulge in maligning and this has been the way of Allah.

Regards

**It is mostly aimed at Ahmadiyya sect who is declared as non Muslim in Pakistan and their attempt to call them or pose as Muslims or relating themselves to Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] is taken as passing derogatory remarks about prophet and is a punishable offense.

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By Robert, April 10, 2011 at 11:49 pm Link to this comment

By A Khokar, April 10 at 11:10 pm

“There are about 25 prophets mentioned in Quran by name and Moses* and Jesus* are atop to be mentioned. In fact Moses* is mentioned some 34 times, Jesus* 32 times and Mariam the mother of Jesus* who is declared the most pious of all the ladies of universe is mentioned for some 17 times. Strange enough the prophet of Islam Muhammad [pbuh] by name is mentioned just 4 times.”

~~~~~~~

A Khobar...after reading your posts, I searched for further details & found the following:

*******

How does Islam relate to Christianity and Judaism?

“Muslims, Christians and Jews all trace their origins to the Prophet and Patriarch Abraham and their three Prophets are direct descendants from Abraham’s sons - Muhammad from the eldest, Ishmael, and Moses and Jesus from Isaac (peace be upon them all).

Muslims particularly respect and revere Jesus. They consider him one of the greatest of God’s prophets and messengers. A Muslim never refers to him simply as “Jesus”, but always adds the phrase “peace be upon him.” The Qur’an confirms his virgin birth, and a special chapter of the Qur’an is entitled “Mary” in honor of the mother of Jesus.

Jesus was born miraculously through the same power that had brought Adam (peace be upon them both) into being without a father:

  “Truly the likeness of Jesus with God is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust and then said to him, ‘Be!’ and he was.” (Qur’an 3:59)

During his prophetic mission, Jesus (peace be upon him) performed many miracles. The Qur’an tells us that he said:

  “I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I make for you out of clay a figure of a bird, and breathe into it and it becomes a bird by God’s leave(permission). And I heal the blind, and the lepers, and I raise the dead by God’s leave(permission).” (Qur’an 3:49)

Neither Muhammad nor Jesus (peace be upon them) came to change the basic doctrine of the belief in One God, brought by earlier prophets, but to confirm and renew it.”

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By Maani, April 10, 2011 at 11:08 pm Link to this comment

radson:

“Where did you come from, What are you doing here,
And where are you going when you leave.”

Before I answer these age-old questions (LOL), my “rebuttal” was merely a statement of fact.  The oldest known belief system in the world is the Australian aboriginal “dreamtime” belief, which has been around in recognizable form for at least 15,000 years, and possibly as long as 25,000.  Following that, the oldest belief system is the original system that gave rise to what became the Native American “Great Spirit” belief, which has been around for about 11,000 years.

Note that I am not suggesting that either of these was a monotheistic belief, or even one based on the concept of a “God.”  But they are recognizable “spiritual” belief systems that are post-animistic.

As to your questions, I came from my mother’s womb. (Though some say I was created in a test tube marked ‘X’...LOL.)  What I am doing here is surviving and hoping to leave the world at least a slightly better place than I found it.  And where I’m going when I leave will depend on the honesty of my faith.

Yes, I’m being a tad facetious in some ways.  And I know you meant the questions in a more philosophical way.  But then, why SHOULD they be all that difficult to answer?  And why should it matter whether different people answer them differently?

Existential questions need not be so difficult.

Peace.

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By radson, April 10, 2011 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment

Maani
Thanks for your rebuttal ,fore I am no priest ,neither do I assume to to be .In all of my shared existence on this only Planet that we all share I also have no intention of ,Dismissing’ anyone ,somehow that term brings up an echo of a tragic past.I personally believe that there is ONE supreme being although I am not exactly sure if any really know the ‘rightful’ name of the Spirit.Since you have spent 30 years -a short amount - in this very complex question ,I wish a hundred more .Now I do have a simple riddle for you.

Where did you come from
What are you doing here
And where are you going when you leave

cheers

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By Maani, April 10, 2011 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

To A Khokar’s 4/10 11:10 post, I would add that one of the key inscriptions in the cupola of the Dome of the Rock (one of Islam’s three holiest sites) is “Allahumma salli ala rasulika wa’abdika ‘Isa bin Maryam” (“In the name of the One God (Allah) Pray for your Prophet and Servant Jesus son of Mary.”)

Salaam.

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By A Khokar, April 10, 2011 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

ITW also says:
[And wasn’t Isa the virgin born son of Maryam?  And isn’t there a book of Maryam in the Qu’ran?]
We may be calling the birth of Jesus* a miracle and certainly it is not less than a miracles but Have we ever thought of it that why after all God Almighty adopted some very unusual ways to facilitate the birth of Jesus*?

We all know that all the prophets on this planet were born among the peoples among whom they came and peoples have been the proud fathers of their prophets—- but in case of Israelites; sadly they had drifted so much to the wrong paths and had become so haughty transgressors that—- where God made them the recipient of His wrath; God Almighty also never liked that Israelites must father the prophets who was to become their Reformer and the saviour of the peoples of the time.

Regards

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By A Khokar, April 10, 2011 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

ITW says:
[Is there not a great prophet in the Qu’ran named “Isa”? In fact, 2nd only to The Prophet Himself?]

There are about 25 prophets mentioned in Quran by name and Moses* and Jesus* are atop to be mentioned. In fact Moses* is mentioned some 34 times, Jesus* 32 times and Mariam the mother of Jesus* who is declared the most pious of all the ladies of universe is mentioned for some 17 times. Strange enough the prophet of Islam Muhammad [pbuh] by name is mentioned just 4 times.

In fact Quran is the book where we find that God Almighty is very much weary of conduct of his chosen lot from older denominations. He bestowed them with abundance of largesse and his blessings but they proved to be the transgressors.

So—-on the planed completion of the religion in Islam selected for the mankind. God repeatedly mentions the older denominations as parables especially the Israelites and Christian and admonishes the believers and following of Prophet Muhammad [pbuh]that they must refrain from any such aindulgence where olds have gone wrong and stayed there as the recipient of the wrath of God.

Islam bears the teaching for righteous and gives out the ways that as how to stay righteous.

Regards

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By Maani, April 10, 2011 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment

radson:

“Your analysis of the historical written evidence is lacking, to say the least and I get a real chuckle with your blatant stupidity in the context of this discussion…”

Setting aside how humbly, tolerantly and patiently you present yourself (LOL), my “analysis” is the result of over 30 years of intensive study of comparative religion.  Given that you have provided nothing whatsoever in the way of support for your accusation here, I don’t feel that dismissing you is unwarranted.

OM:

“If you define ‘fundamentalist’ as someone who believes in the truth of a holy book, and wishes to live by that holy book, then A Khokar might be a fundamentalist. We should not soft peddle something that is important to him.”

Your definition is way too broad.  I believe in the truth of my holy book as well, but that does not make me a fundamentalist.  A fundamentalist believes that every single sentence in their holy book is the absolute, inerrant “truth” PER SE; i.e., not subject to interpretation.  A Khokar clearly interprets his holy book with the same thoughtfulness and open mind that too few believers of any faith do.

The text of any holy book can be interpreted in more than one way.  (Indeed, this is one of the “complaints” of samosamo, ITW and others.)  In Islam, the Qur’an is interpreted one way by “fundamentalist” (i.e., extremist, radical, but not necessarily violent) imams, and another way by centrist or “moderate” imams.  And it is quite clear that the Bible is interpreted in one way by the so-called Religious Right (who believe in its absolute inerrancy), and in another way by moderate and “left” faith leaders.

In this regard, I was not “soft peddling” at all; on the contrary, I was giving A Khokar well-deserved credit for his thoughtfulness, which is, in some sense, the opposite of extremism.

Peace.

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By A Khokar, April 10, 2011 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment

Manni,

You have quoted the passage of Deuteronomy 18:18 and said: [the Prophet would come from among the “brethren” of those being addressed; i.e., He would be from the Israelites.  Muhammad was not an Israelite, even if he was a child of Abraham.]

I must say that this passage quoted above denotes that the Prophet who would come will not be from Israelites but from among the brethren of Israelite.
The progeny of Israelites speaks that Israelites are from the Isaac and his family——and Muhammad comes from Isaac’s brother—- Ishmael and family.

Regards

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By A Khokar, April 10, 2011 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

Maani,

Thanks a lot for you kind comment and am immensely pleased to know that Truthdig is a forum where people truly seek wisdom and truth and they do know that to become a catalyst to bring a change in the lives of peoples on this planet: they should see others with the eye of love and not with the eye of Judgment.

I know that the religion of God——Islam at its summit is ‘Love for all and hatred for None’

With Best of Regards

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By samosamo, April 10, 2011 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

****************

 

radson
samosamo: Don’t encourage OM ,he might morph into
something ,like a cross between Pat and Jones .Oh by the way
Ozark, the East Indians and the Chinese are still around and
their beliefs and societies precede any of this so called
Religions of the Levant.

Don’t forget the early Egyptians and along with the Indian
Religions, is as old or older.

Another side is that when the butchering europeans, cortez,
de soto and et al, who first came to the western hemisphere
and finding the south american indians with their pyramids
calendars and gods that were so like unto those judeo/xtian
religions that it infuriated them to the point of being a cause
of the genocide that almost wiped them all out.

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By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2011 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment

Maani said: “i]As a believer I do not think it is coincidence that we have A Khokar - a clearly non-fundamentalist,”

If you define “fundamentalist” as merely a person with ‘beliefs that lead to violence’ then you are right. But i dont think that is a good definition.

If you define “fundamentalist” as someone who believes in the truth of a holy book, and wishes to live by that holy book, then A Khokar might be a fundamentalist. We should not soft peddle something that is important to him.

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By radson, April 10, 2011 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment

Maani : well tell us when the MUNGO MAN learned how to write and and leave behind his\her thoughts for all the world to interpret and what about the North American Indian for that matter .Your analysis of the historical
written evidence is Lacking ,to say the least and I get a real chuckle with your blatant stupidity in the context of this discussion ,which is becoming more a clash of civilizations than anything else .
peace.

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By Leefeller, April 10, 2011 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment

Religion is one important point in the 14 points of Britts 14 points of fascism, this is only point eight!

8.  Religion and Government are Intertwined. 
Use of the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions. [Getting there!]

One need only tie the points together and Tea Bags are us comes into focus!

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By Maani, April 10, 2011 at 4:57 pm Link to this comment

As a believer I do not think it is coincidence that we have A Khokar - a clearly non-fundamentalist, thoughtful, caring Muslim who helps to break the stereotype of Muslims, and interprets the Qur’an in a more loving, forgiving and “human” way - and me, a clearly non-fundamentalist, thoughtful (hopefully), caring Christian who helps break the stereotype of Christians, and interprets the Bible in a more loving, forgiving and human way.  Add to this OM, who is also clearly a non-fundamentalist, thoughtful, caring Christian who is willing to find common ground and “live and let live” without rancor.

It gives me hope that some of the more radical anti-religionists here will at least see that broad-brushing and generalizing are not just unhelpful, but corrosive to intelligent conversation, discussion and debate.

Peace.

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By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2011 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

A Khobar said:  “Anyhow; Quran does not allow any action taken by the Muslim believers to undertake any kind of heinous action like killing etc of the perpetrator blasphemous. This man is a misguided buffoon and an insane person; and insane may not be dealt with in court.

You have clearly rejected retribution against the blasphemer, and you have also rejected prosecution (the power of the state) be used against him.

A good answer at the right time is like a sculpture of gold in a setting of silver. I admire your answer, I beg your pardon that I suspected otherwise. You are the one who has proven to me that Terry Jones was wrong to burn a Quran.

It would be wrong for anyone to require that you answer that same question over and over, as if you need to keep proving yourself. I will not do that to you.

For the record, I was very sorry that pastor Terry Jones did it. People like him stomp on a holy thing to feel brave. Some people stomp on all holy things and that makes them feel very brave. I have Quran and I read it. With me it is disagreements, but no burning.

Let Islam be what the Muslim here says it is. If it is freedom and peace that he grants the blasphemer, then may the Muslim have freedom and peace in abundance.

Perhaps A Khobar, we shall speak more in future? Perhaps we can have strong but friendly disagreement about other things?

For now i bid you peace until we talk again.

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By Maani, April 10, 2011 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment

A Khokhar:

“God Almighty says that as prophesised in Deuteronomy 18:18 I have sent Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] as the final Prophet of God.”

With due respect, what makes you think Deuteronomy was talking about Muhammad?  Given that Jesus had not come yet, it makes far more common sense (to say nothing of theological sense) that they were talking about Him.  Indeed, the passage you cite says, twice, that the Prophet would come from among the “brethren” of those being addressed; i.e., He would be from the Israelites.  Muhammad was not an Israelite, even if he was a child of Abraham.

Thus, the passage you cite could not have been talking about Muhammad.

radson:

“Oh by the way Ozark, the East Indians and the Chinese are still around and their beliefs and societies precede any of this so called Religions of the Levant.”

Actually, the two oldest belief systems in the world are the Australian aboriginal “dreamtime” belief and the Native American “Great Spirit” belief, which both exist today and predate even the East Indian and Chinese belief systems.

Peace.

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By radson, April 10, 2011 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment

samosamo: Don’t encourage OM ,he might morph into something ,like a cross between Pat and Jones .Oh by the way Ozark, the East Indians and the Chinese are still around and their beliefs and societies precede any of this so called Religions of the Levant.

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By A Khokar, April 10, 2011 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

As I said earlier that in present day and time all the main three denominations which form part of the plan of progression of religion of Abraham are all ‘live and kicking. The earlier both the denominations—-neither the Jews nor the Christians they believe in the succession. That is the dilemma that we have got at hand. Some 2000 years have come to pass and Jews still reject the arrival of their Reformer Jesus* and keep on banging their heads with the wailing wall and pray that’ Oh God why don’t you send Elijah that he comes and tell us that when their saviour—-Jesus will come.

At the same times The Christians who against all the odds accepted Jesus* as the saviour, when have come down the line very vehemently reject any succession and advent of any Prophet of God after Jesus.

Somehow the Christians in love of Jesus* have evolved a special myth surrounding Jesus and have elevated his stations to the marks of transgression and have tarnishing the very fabrics of status of God Almighty and have placed him (naozbillah) next to God. (refer Trinity)

But as the water do not stop flowing under the bridges so is the case that for our wishful thinking the continuation of Divine revelations may not be stopped.

God Almighty says that as prophesised in Deuteronomy 18:18 I have sent Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] as the final Prophet of God. All the previous prophets were for their own denominations but Prophet Muhammad [pbuh] is sent as the seal of all the prophets par excellence and as a blessing for the mankind. God also emphasises that He has completed His religion for the mankind which was the religion of Abraham*.

Ironically: and for obvious reasons when peoples of older denominations don’t wish to accept any kind of succession; they are likely to indulge in revulsion and we see the peoples like Terry Jones coming up with such repressive ideas of burning of Quran etc.

Anyhow; Quran does not allow any action taken by the Muslim believers to undertake any kind of heinous action like killing etc of the perpetrator blasphemous. This man is a misguided buffoon and an insane person; and insane may not be dealtwith in court.

Rather beauty of Quran is that God Almighty admonishes the believers that Believer must not curse even the Idol worshipers and their idols. God says; when you curse idols; that is a very paltry thing but when they will curse your God;  be warned they will be degrading me.

Regards

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By samosamo, April 10, 2011 at 3:30 pm Link to this comment

****************


As I said, ‘your perceptions of religious cultural history are
abysmal’. And almost as bad as your misperceptions of my
comment.

You really would do better by creating your own church.

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By samosamo, April 10, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

****************


OM

How come you waste your time on this site? With your gushing
enthusiasm of religion, you should have your own church and
beholding flock whom you could fleece thus putting yourself in
the ranks of the elite.

Your perception of religious cultural history is abysmal.

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By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2011 at 3:17 pm Link to this comment

Samosamo spoke mostly of organized religion when he said : “This world won’t get any better until the human cancer is all gone.

You can feel the virulent infection whithering under the purifying fire of samosamo.

Ah the cleansing power of unbelief! The antiseptic power of nihilism!

from
http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/florida_pastor_has_a_few_new_enemies_20110406/#395073

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By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2011 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

Amazing what can be accomplished by the “antiseptic” unbelief of samosamo who said:

Let an infected sore be and it soon infects the whole, where antiseptic will stop the infection so the sore can be healed. But since murder and I guess killing is considered not normal I can at least hope his enemies get to him and the sooner the better.

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By samosamo, April 10, 2011 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

****************


Geez, amazing what can be ‘accomplished’ by belief.

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By OzarkMichael, April 10, 2011 at 11:37 am Link to this comment

What sort of relationships will grow from make-believe equivalence? How long will a ‘friendship’ last if it is unequal and biased?

For example, it is counterproductive to pretend that a Christian culture targetted Jews merely because Hitler made them do it. Instead, one ought to examine the Christian scripture and cultural history, finding fault with it if need be and correcting the problems, not sweeping them under a rug. To do this effectively is not an easy task, for one must also understand that the good enlightened progress also came from that same Christian scripture and culture.  Anything less is scapegoating. 

Yes, we must critically examine Christianity, but one ought not resort to popular Leftist mythology to do so. For example, the Great Library of Alexandria was probably burned down by Julius Caesar.

Treating religions as if they all produce the same cultural result certainly looks good on the surface, and will earn you lots of widespread applause from Leftists the world over. Nonetheless, proclaiming that all religions produce the same result… clouds over the issues, it cements unequal relations, and accepts bias as the foundation for relationship.

There are some initial benefits one can experience from enjoying muddled bias wrapped in hazy Leftist platitudes, but eventually it will lead to grief.

I prefer clarity.

A Khokar has politely introduced Islam, and has alluded to the fact that we all have to “come to terms” ie, we all must have a relationship to it. What is that relationship? Can it be critically examined, or must we resort to Leftist platitudes? Is this something that can be improved and we can all move forward, or is it something to sweep under the rug?

And please ITW, do not presume to teach about Jesus in Islam. The only reason you brought it up is to frame that Christianity and Islam are equivalent. It serves your purpose well, but it is ignorance. First, I have already shown today that the religious equivalence approach is muddled thinking.

Furthermore, to you Isa is an insignificant matter, and if we combine that with your Leftist bias, it guarantees that you will accentuate what is unimportant and slur over the most crucial details. Which of course is exactly what you did. Oh, it looked good, your words about Isa appear to be a designed for reconciliation, but in fact they forge a reconciliation based on ignorant bias.. in other words: an unequal relationship.. in other words, chains for me. No thanks! What you dont realize is that you forge chains for yourself as well.

What recourse do i have with you ITW? For example, shall i explain what Isa means in Islam, and what Islam’s view means for Christianity? It means a great deal to me and it took a great deal of study to penetrate the fog of patronization. All of which is a matter of complete indifference to you.  If I pursue the issue will would yawn. You pronounced a judgement and there it shall sit.

That is the secret of our unequal relationship. You dont care about the topic you make snap judgments about, because your agnosticism remains above it all. You sit in your comfort zone enthroned above it all.

From down here at the very bottom I have studied the foundations. There are faults and weaknesses down here, but some parts are more solid than others.

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2011 at 11:00 pm Link to this comment

A Khokar:
Is there not a great prophet in the Qu’ran named “Isa”? In fact, 2nd only to The Prophet Himself?  And wasn’t Isa the virgin born son of Maryam?  And isn’t there a book of Maryam in the Qu’ran?

In other words, isn’t Jesus worshiped in Islam as well as in Christianity?

The Prophet didn’t preach to Jews and Christians, instead opting to teach the pagan nomadic tribes.  Why? Isn’t there a position held by many Islamic scholars that this was due to His recognition that those peoples were already worshiping the One True God?

But, as an Agnostic, I do not accept ANY of the religions as ultimately valid.  People who are equally devout can be saints or demons—often both. (St. Cyril, who burned the Library of Alexandria, comes to mind)

This fundamental truth about all religions: The equally devout adherents can take diametrically opposite paths to doing wonderful good or hideous evil all based on the same scriptures prevents me from accepting ANY of them as valid for actual worship.

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By OzarkMichael, April 9, 2011 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment

A Khokar,

Do not worry about typos. Most of your meanings are clear. I understand the progression from Jew to Christian to Muslim. However, I am a Christian and not a Muslim. I ask:

Does Islam allow burning the Quran with no retribution? Or does Islam require that the Quran burning face some sort of retribution from the ummah?

I am not asking you to approve of Terry Jones. I do not approve of him either but that is not the point.

I am asking if Allah expects him to be punished for insulting the honor of Islam.

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By Robert, April 9, 2011 at 9:49 pm Link to this comment

Pastor Terry Jones is given car for refraining from burning holy book

By Beth DeFalco, Associated Press / October 15, 2010


South Brunswick, New Jersey

“A New Jersey car dealer plans to keep his word after offering Florida pastor Terry Jones a new car if he promised to not burn a Quran.

Car dealer Brad Benson made the offer in one of his dealership’s quirky radio ads, which focus more on current events than cars. But he was surprised when a representative for Jones called to collect the 2011 Hyundai Accent, which retails for $14,200.

“They said unless I was doing false advertising, they would like to arrange to pick up the car,” Benson recalled.At first he thought it was a hoax, so Benson asked Jones to send in a copy of his driver’s license. He did.


http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Latest-News-Wires/2010/1015/Pastor-Terry-Jones-is-given-car-for-refraining-from-burning-holy-book

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By A Khokar, April 9, 2011 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

Ooops

I apologise for certain typos

Regards

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By A Khokar, April 9, 2011 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael,

Thanks for you kind comments.

First and foremost would be that kindly add the word—‘to’ at the end of; [There is no compulsion in religion says Quran and…. we may mock Islam or resist it but come to its terms we have—to.] Somehow it got omitted in copy-pasting of the comment. I hope; it will bring some clarity.

I partially agree with you that previous Divine Books were altered but those were the basic books of the teaching meant for the followers of the time to enlighten and discipline them for their necessary character moulding and nurturing. Whereas Quran being the last book in religion of God does have its base in the old teaching but it is a Book of advanced studies in the field of religion of God Almighty which was revealed to Muhammad [pbuh] and ibears the complete guidance and light for the entire mankind.

Islam is Abrahamic religion which has gradually progressing from its infancy to adulthood and to its maturity of today. Abraham* being the father of religion Islam imparted the very basic teachings in its infancy of say; Kindergarten schooling, later Moses* with his 10 Commandment brought the Judea masses (the chosen peoples)to higher education; but the haughtiness of Judea detracted them and they had gone so off track that it demanded their reformation. Sadly when their Reformer Jesus* came, they out rightly rejected him as imposter and put him on the cross to die a humiliating death. The Christian who found Jesus* as their saviour prophet have done tremendous job in the service of God and spread His message far and wide; till they are found gone astray and have become the transgressors by fixing themselves in the alluvium of Trinity.
Judea the kept on boasting for 580 years that what a great job they did by putting an imposter (Jesus*) on the cross when Quran brought by Muhammad [pbuh] revealed that how they transgressed and how they were subjected to the wrath of God. That is why the Jews even today, they might have attained a worldly power to oppress others and may call themselves the invincible power but it is evident that wrath of God always follows them like a shadow and they may never find a peace on this planet where ever they go.

God Almighty says that by revealing Quran; [5:3] “This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favour upon you and have chosen for you Islam as religion.[2;2] This is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous[2:185] The month of Ramadan is that in which the Qur’an was sent down as a guidance for mankind with clear proofs of guidance and discrimination.”

We are passing through era where older denominations like Judea and Christian as well as the followers of the latest guidance Muslims are found confined in one span of time. The dilemma at hand is that old denominations Judea and Christians wants to remain stuck to their own ruts and Muslims somehow for their abhorrent conduct are unable to convince the olds and thus a state of stalemate remain hung prevalent.

Unfortunately extremists and misguided buffoons like Terry Jones are present in all the denominations who earn their living by instigating their masses of denominations and like to see them pitched against each other; this is how they safeguard their amassed opulence and assets—- and resultantly the original message of Quran calling the mankind to the summit in the religion of God—-in Islam—-remains alluded in the back grounds.

The Buffoons like Terry Jones may not be aware of the fact that what and why Quran is there; and ignorantly are acting upon their satanic whims. Question is; by his despicable moves;—- is the man serving God. I believe; our answer to this will certainly be—No.

Regards
(*Peace be upon them all)

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By Inherit The Wind, April 9, 2011 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

One needs only look at the Haymarket Bombing to see the fallacy of trying to charge this sick fuck in Floriduh with a crime. 

Not one person convicted in the Haymarket Bombing could EVER be connected to the bombing itself.  That was never established. Instead, several (I believe 4) were hanged for “incitement” because the anarchism they were preaching supposedly resulted in some asshole throwing a bomb into a crowd.

The only one convicted who had any connection to explosives tried to kill himself by exploding a blasting cap in his mouth.  He ineptly managed to blow his jaw off and it took a long time for him to die.  Later, Governor John Peter Altgeld pardoned the remaining 3, which cost him his seat.

Terry Jones is a sick fuck, but under OUT laws, unless given a Bush-Cheney twist, has committed no LEGAL crime, not even apparently, a hate crime (Dumb as he is, he wasn’t dumb enough to burn the Qu’ran on the lawn of a mosque—which legally IS a hate crime)

I’m just reading the new Malcolm X biography by Manning Marable.  In many ways, Malcolm alienated people like Jones does.  And, as many suggest should happen to Jones, despite knowing the threats against Malcolm, the NYPD and the FBI decided NOT to protect him on the day he was murdered.

Now it’s clear Terry Jones is no Malcolm X.  But a large part of why Malcolm is remembered and revered is that he CHANGED! He abandoned racism, hatred and bigotry, without abandoning his radical politics. Of course, Jones is wallowing in his bigotr. 

But set aside each man’s politics and the context: Is that the America we want to live in?  Where we don’t protect people who say stupid, mean shit against known threats?

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By OzarkMichael, April 8, 2011 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment

A Khokar said “Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the successive stages of one Abrahamic religion starting from its infancy to maturity. Quran is the last book in the series of Guide books given by God Almighty and Quran is the only book which confirms and validates the earlier stages of religion namely the Judaism and Christianity.

If I remember correctly, according to Islamic tradition the Quran is actually the original and first Book, existing long before Mohammed and yet given perfectly to him,  but it had been partially imparted to prophets of yore. The problem with prior books is that they became adulterated or I suppose werent written down right away.

The Quran is thus seen as both correction and validation of the prior books. Thats how I describe the Islamic view anyway.

There is no compulsion in religion says Quran and…. we may mock Islam or resist it but come to its terms we have.

If you mean ‘come to its terms’ in the sense that people ought to take any claim to a truth(Islam included) seriously, examine it and if we think its true we should follow it, then yes we all should ‘come to its terms’.

If you mean we will all meet Allah sooner or later, and we ought to ‘come to its terms’ with Allah now instead of doing so on bad terms after death, ok yes its an acceptable warning you are giving.

But I wonder if you might mean something more than just that. You might be saying that Pastor Terry will probably become an example of ‘coming to its terms’. In which case you have just shown that your quotation of Quran 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion has a subtle meaning, namely: that Islam does not compel deep inner belief, but Islam can certainly compel outward conformity with it. Especially if someone punishes a blasphemer like Pastor Terry in order to maintain proper respect for Islam from the rest of us.

In the context of the Truthdig title and article it appears possible that you meant it that way. No one else picked up on that meaning except me, so you need to make it more clear.

So if Pastor Terry gets punished, is that part of the process of ‘coming to its terms’ whereby we learn to submit to the proper order of things, especially coming to terms with Islam? 

Is that correct? Please speak up, A Khokar.

I do not think anyone else here knows what you meant. Nobody in the Truthdig peanut gallery can speak for you. Everyone, including me, will only be guessing.

You may tell us that Islam supports the freedom to burn the Quran, or you may tell us that the Islam demands some earthly consequence for insulting Quran. But you cant have it both ways.

Which is it? Please speak up, A Khokar.

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By Maani, April 8, 2011 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment

HIH:

“If God did exist, do you think he would allow one like him into heaven?  No, he’d go to hell with all the rest of the so-called ‘faithful’ for not getting what Christianity was supposed to be about.  And people wonder why there are so many atheists in the world.  Maybe because any deity who would allow such atrocities to be done in their name is not worth their worship?”

What makes you think God “allows” such atrocities to be done “in His name?”  As you - and so many others - correctly point out, Jones is no more “Christian” in any real, legitimate sense than I am a tree.  (For the record, I’m a human being.)

Peace.

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By OzarkMichael, April 8, 2011 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment

As our Truthdig article says, the “Florida pastor has a few new enemies”. I suspect he knew this would happen to him. But he has some new enemies he probably didnt expect, especially one Republican South Carolina Senator, Lindsey Graham. From Face the Nation last Sunday:

I wish we could find a way to hold people accountable. Free speech is a great idea, but we’re in a war. During World War II, we had limits on what you could say if it would inspire the enemy. So, burning a Koran is a terrible thing but it doesn’t justify killing someone. Burning a Bible would be a terrible thing but it doesn’t justify murder. Having said that, anytime we can push back here in America against actions like this that put our troops at risk we should do it…

That statement, coming from a United States Senator, and a Republican no less, is a terrible shock and disappointment to me.

The summary of what Graham said was expressed in his first sentence: “I wish we could find a way to hold people accountable.”

Listen, Senator. Thats an ignorant wish. You were not elected to hold the people accountable for their free speech. Period. You are not our patron. You are not our controller. You are not our King.

The people can hold you accountable for not upholding the Constitution of the United States. You know, the Bill of Rights and little details like that? If you have wishes otherwise you need to be turned out of office.

I usually vote Republican but this is a glaring abrogation of a fundamental principle of our government. Instead of donating money to you i would rather donate to your opponent. 

This post copied and emailed to ‘His Excellency’ at

http://lgraham.senate.gov/public/

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By Hypocrite is Hypocritical, April 8, 2011 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This man has just as much blood on his hands as those who did the killing.  He deliberately provoked a reaction he knew he would get in order to further his and the Christian right’s anti-muslim agenda.  He caused innocent people to be killed so he could point the finger and say ‘See, I told you they were bad’.

Religious hypocrisy sickens me.  If God did exist, do you think he would allow one like him into heaven?  No, he’d go to hell with all the rest of the so-called ‘faithful’ for not getting what Christianity was supposed to be about. 

And people wonder why there are so many atheists in the world.  Maybe because any deity who would allow such atrocities to be done in their name is not worth their worship?

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By James Sheridan, April 8, 2011 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

WAIT A MINUTE!  Wasn’t this bozo bribed with a new car a few months ago to keep him from doing what he just did?  And in the meantime, ol’ Fred Phelps and the von Westboro Family “singers” actually did the deed, put it on youtube and nothing happened.  No one paid any attention (not that that’s a bad thing).  This whole thing smells like fish.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 8, 2011 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

We invaded Iraq after it was made abundantly clear that there would be reprisals.  As I recall, some high-ranking official even said “bring ‘em on.”  Surely, if you’re going to hold Rev. Jones accountable for the deaths of those killed by radicals because of a little book burning, then Dubyutz should be sent away for life.

But again, were I to burn the Quran as an act of artistic expression, should I be cut more slack than Rev. Jones, who burned it in defiance of a religion and a worldview he opposes?

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By Maani, April 8, 2011 at 12:54 pm Link to this comment

If we could all step back and look at this in a dispassionate manner, and from a strictly legal perspective, here is how a legal case would be built:

-In the U.S., Pastor Jones has every right to burn a Qur’an, under his constitutional right to free speech.  In this regard, as has been pointed out, it is immaterial whether a president, Joint Chiefs Chair, or anyone else “warned” him that doing so might put U.S. forces outside the U.S. in danger.

-As a direct result of Pastor Jones’ completely legal (if stupid) act, U.S. citizens and others are killed by angry mobs of Muslims in another country.

Thus, although it is true that Pastor Jones is not DIRECTLY responsible for those deaths - i.e., he did not carry them out - his action was a “contributing factor” to them, and thus he is guilty of complicity in those deaths.

In the U.S., there are two instances I can think of that are relevant.  If I go out with a bullhorn during a protest and tell people to throw rocks through windows, and they do so, I can be arrested for “inciting to riot,” even though I did not personally throw any rocks.

Also, if you want to kill someone, and I give you the money to buy a gun, and you buy a gun and kill them, I am considered complicit in that murder, and can be tried as an accomplice.

Keep in mind that a legal case is built on evidence (direct and circumstantial) and motive.  In this case, Pastor Jones’ intent and evidence are inextricably intertwined: he made it clear that his motive was to “prove a point” - i.e., that Muslims would react violently to the burning of a Qur’an (though he probably thought U.S. Muslims might also) - and the evidence is, as more than one person has pointed out, he did not simply burn a Qur’an in his backyard, but deliberately taped it and made sure that the tape would be seen by those he was (deliberately) taunting.

Personally, I think there is a very good case to be made for his complicity in the deaths, despite their occurring thousands of miles away by people over whose choices (i.e., to rampage and kill) he had no direct control.

Peace.

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By Leefeller, April 8, 2011 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment

Burning a flag, Koran or anything else to make a point, is not the same as killing someone. With reactionaries one would be prudent to watch what they do or say, for who knows what fanatics will do with their limited interpretations?

I would not attend a KKK meeting and cite Marten Luther King,.... nor would I go to a Black Panther gathering wearing a white sheet.

I believe in the freedom of expression and this freedom uncomfortably includes this ass wipe,.... without this freedom of speech we could all be living in Afghanistan or worse,.......Texas!

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By RayLan, April 8, 2011 at 12:38 pm Link to this comment

Although this ridiculous reverend is a minister of hatred rather than Christ’s teachings, it isn’t ethically fair to hold him responsible for what some hateful Muslims do because of it.

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By radson, April 8, 2011 at 10:53 am Link to this comment

“G"utless “W"itless Hitler

Gutless I don’t drink Gin for one thing and definitely no booze from a plastic jug ,although a cold beer from a mason jar isn’t all that bad.Now who in his/her right mind would want to burn such a book to begin with ? Its a sign of mental weakness ,as far as your ‘ok’ ,argument goes its equally irrelevant and only promotes more animosity and in this particular case ,more violence,can’t you think of any better way of achieving rapprochement.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 8, 2011 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

It sounds like PatrickHenry and radson are sharing the same plastic jug of Burnett’s gin.

Simply answer this:  Who has the right to burn a Quran?  Please outline for us when it’s ok and when it’s not.  Does the right diminish at the same rate that panty wadding increases?  Do I have more of a right to burn The Hobbit because we all know Tolkien fans won’t blow up embassies?

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By PatrickHenry, April 8, 2011 at 6:42 am Link to this comment


“G"utless “W"itless Hitler

So it sounds to me like you believe the measure of the crime is the result rather than the intent.  Is that true. . . you twit?

Well dumbass, the fact is the pastor burned a koran without intent that it would create deaths. Once the deaths occured the measure of his crime increased.

Its probably why he isn’t in jail yet, hopefully prosecutors are figuring out a way.

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By A Khokar, April 8, 2011 at 1:01 am Link to this comment

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are the successive stages of one Abrahamic religion starting from its infancy to maturity. Quran is the last book in the series of Guide books given by God Almighty and Quran is the only book which confirms and validates the earlier stages of religion namely the Judaism and Christianity.

God declares in Quran that by giving Quran; He has completed the Religion of Ibrahim—Islam and envisages for the mankind to abide by its teachings.

There is no compulsion in religion says Quran and…. we may mock Islam or resist it but come to its terms we have.

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By thethirdman, April 8, 2011 at 12:33 am Link to this comment

samosamo

Now finally a sentiment I can agree with!

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By samosamo, April 7, 2011 at 11:22 pm Link to this comment

****************

 

Great day for organized religions. Anything goes. Everyone is a
fucking expert. Everybody is right and and everybody is wrong.

So many examples of why organized religions are the biggest
threat to this planet. And NO DAMN WONDER when the
7,000,000,000 stupid fucks on this planet belong to one or
cater to one and… oooppps, I am damn sure leaving that other
piece of fecal matter stinking the whole place up, POLITICS
another NO DAMN WONDER when 7,000,000,000 people live
breath and fart any of the religious and political ideologies.

This world won’t get any better until the human cancer is all
gone.

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By radson, April 7, 2011 at 10:31 pm Link to this comment

“G"utless “W"itless Hitler,

You seem to be the perfect ‘candidate’ to assuage this
most unfortunate ‘fecal situation’ brought about by a
stooge and the altruistic media propagandists in order to Win ‘the hearts and minds ’ of the unfortunate Afghan Citizens.All this with the wisdom that burning Korans will make better neighbours and save American tax payers money and create jobs at home ,in the hope -in your case- that the violence will continue because business has slowed down somewhat of late .Do the Planet a favor and burn yourself in effigy along with the Brain dead Priest that you so admire and support.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

@PatrickHenry

So it sounds to me like you believe the measure of the
crime is the result rather than the intent.  Is that
true. . . you twit?

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By PatrickHenry, April 7, 2011 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

“G"utless “W"itless Hitler,

They are given weapons and train, it is the risk they take bringing freedom to the masses.

Try comming up with an opinion of your own instead of asking an idiotic question.

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By Arabian Sinbad, April 7, 2011 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment

“He said, adding that Hezbolla, the Shia Muslim militant group, had put out a “reward out on my head for $2.4 million.”
=====================================================
If we were to believe this scum about Hezbolla putting out a reward of $ 2.4 million on his filthy head, then I will be confused about who is more stupid: the irreverent bastard Terry Jones or Hezbollah?!

This scum does not worth 2.4 cents, let alone $ 2.4 million! As far as I am concerned, he should live with his bigotry and hate till he drops dead consumed by his own medicine.

The only thing that worries me is that this left- over from the Nazi era mentality, being hated and rejected by his own daughter and his few followers in Germany, has managed to receive welcoming sponsors in America.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 9:29 pm Link to this comment

@ PatrickHenry

Is getting soldiers killed the measure of a hate crime? 
Or treasonous behavior?

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By TDoff, April 7, 2011 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

third, lastly: I feel certain we agree on much more than we differ. Peace.

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By PatrickHenry, April 7, 2011 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

thethirdman,

First, Bradley Manning didn’t release anything of the nature which got soldiers killed, it embarrassed many of our state department people by revealing how really low brow they were in thrit gossip but no deaths I am aware of are directly attibutable to his release of confidential state department info.

Second, we are fortunate that there are more responsible media types than you would have it.

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/making-sense-of-news/126616/how-the-quran-burning-story-skipped-the-u-s-as-it-spread-from-gainesville-around-the-world/

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

Would it be different if an artist chose to burn the
Quran for a non-provocative reason?

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment

Calling burning a Quran a hate crime is like calling
displaying a picture of a lynching a hate crime.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

Patrick Henry:

“The story was the UN workers getting killed, not a nutcase burning a book.  The
people were killed based on the news report.  You don’t see any responsibility on
the part of the media?”

Does Bradley Manning have any responsibility for the death of soldiers in
retaliation of the videos he revealed?  No way.  Do those responsible for shitty
actions against civilians?  Oh yes. 

Just because someone might not like the truth doesn’t mean the medium of that
truth was responsible.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

TDoff:

Now there is some red meat you can sink your teeth into.  Thank you.

Thank you as well for acknowledging the ad hominem attack.  No harm done.

I, too, am sorry for calling you crazy.

Trying to get at the intent of a mad man is never easy.  I will admit money and
fame are most likely the prime motives in Jones’ actions.  Despicable, yes.  But
what scares me is the vehemence and violence many before you advocated as a
solution to Jones’ actions.  People see a crazy white man and disrespectful
action against an other’s culture and put the onus of death at the hands of a
Koran burning.  I refuse to accept that.  Jones killed no one.  And he does have
the right to politically demonstrate his hatred of Islam.  Just as I have the same
right to burn a Bible or the flag, or a bible wrapped in a flag.
You ask for an intent that could justify his actions.  If Jones were a master of
satire, he could have used his actions to demonstrate how ludicrous the
peaceful adherents of Islam really are.  If the actions of Matt Stone and Trey
Parker in their South Park episode dealing with Mohammed caused the same
deaths, would you wish to take away their rights of artistic expression?  If
someone told them beforehand that their cartoon would lead to death, should
they just pack up and go home?
Again kerryrose’s statement that POTUS and a General warned Jones not to do it
are very frightening to me.  Where do we draw the line?  Pay no attention to the
man behind the curtain.

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By berniem, April 7, 2011 at 7:26 pm Link to this comment

Everyday new stories about the insanity of religious belief only prove further that Chris Hitchens was and is correct in his assessment of the greatness of god!

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

Hmmmm. . . Was Larry Flynt guilty of a hate crime?  He
published pornography, technically legal, but in direct
violation of the social mores of the time and with full
knowledge that it conflicted with the values of the
church.  Many people advised him not to do it, but he
did anyway.  As a result, innocent people (his lawyer)
were injured.

Are U.S. embassy personnel somehow less culpable in
this than Larry Flynt’s lawyer was in that case?

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By PatrickHenry, April 7, 2011 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment

thethirdman,

yes, now it’s the media’s faulty those UN workers got killed

The story was the UN workers getting killed, not a nutcase burning a book.  The people were killed based on the news report.  You don’t see any responsibility on the part of the media?

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By TDoff, April 7, 2011 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment

third, 1st, shouting fire in a crowded theater is not unlawful…if there is a fire. Falsely shouting fire is unlawful. Both shouts may cause the same effect, people panic, may be crushed by the mob, etc. But it’s a matter of intent.
Now to our nut job, Terry, the self-proclaimed ‘servant’ of ‘god’. What do you suppose his intent was in burning the Koran? Having been told, warned, that it would have a very volatile effect among Muslims, especially in the Middle East. Do you suppose he thought, ‘This is what my ‘god’ wants me to do, and if some heathens die and kill some other folks, so be it’? Or, ‘Hot damn, here’s a way I kin git some attention, and fill-up my collection trays, and mebbe git on TV!’? Neither of those is acceptable, IMO.
Can you think of any intent he could have had that would excuse the effect of his action? I can’t, at least no possible intent most folks would consider sane. And should you come up with one that you consider rational, consider this: Do you think he’d have burned that Quran with that intent/motive if he were in the company of a group of Muslims? Or does he consider his own pitiful life of more value than that of strangers? He certainly does not seem to be a servant of any ‘god’ I’d care to know/have. Nor is he a servant I’d care to have. How ‘bout you?
BTW, I can see how you might think I was attacking you, as opposed to your statements. I apologize… though our discussion began after your first reference to me, which was that I was a ‘crazy’. Why don’t you take another look at that first comment of mine and see if you still think it crazy.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 6:42 pm Link to this comment

yes, now it’s the media’s faulty those UN workers got killed.

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By PatrickHenry, April 7, 2011 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Much like burning a cross, it is a hate crime.

If he did it in his back yard is one thing, if he filmed it and gave it to irresponsible news reporters who posted it in the Pakistani press for ‘sensational news’ that is another matter.

The media should have been more responsible in its reporting.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

TDoff:

You can attack me all you want.  You’ve still failed to address anything substantial.
Everyone else can weigh in here, but how are shouting fire in a theatre and
burning a Koran the same action?  I don’t disagree with that particular Holmes
decision, but tell me how it would apply to Jones?  For all this talk of rational
thought you espouse, I’m not seeing any real connections here.  Maybe we should
start blaming rape victims for wearing revealing clothing.  All of us COULD HAVE
REASONABLY FORESEEN THAT HER ACTIONS WOULD INFLUENCE THE BEHAVIOUR
OF OTHERS.  See, I can do that caps thing too.

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By TDoff, April 7, 2011 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment

thethirdman, You and nut Terry can say and commit any nutty things you like, and if they incur danger/damage for/to others WHICH CAN OR SHOULD HAVE BEEN REASONABLY FORESEEN they can and should be unlawful and you should be held responsible and punished. In a nation of laws, you will have the right to be heard by a jury of your peers. If you commit acts such as the nut-job Pastor Terry does, you should hope/pray for a jury of peer/nuts, maybe you’ll get off. Happens every day.
I believe the ‘Falsely shouting fire…’ decision of O.W. was a correct decision. If you keep trying, maybe someday you’ll make one.

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By radson, April 7, 2011 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Poor old Bastard ,proselytizing the War on Terror and once again dousing the flames with Gasoline .While the fools cringe ,for the evil Muslim religious empire seeks retribution and promotes Washington’s Crusade.

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By kerryrose, April 7, 2011 at 5:22 pm Link to this comment

Third man

Reckless endangerment is a crime.  His was HATE speech.  He is guilty of a HATE crime.  He should be arrested.  There was nothing ‘political’ about his ACTIONS not SPEECH.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment

TDoff:

There is a good reason you can’t shout fire: You are causing an unsafe situation
and your direct actions are putting people’s safety in danger.  Before you tell me
that that is exactly what Pastor Jones did, think on it for a sec. 

If you are going to limit someone’s political speech because it may or may not
cause people to react in a certain way, where does it stop?  It is greatly
disconcerting to me that kerryrose says that Pastor Idiot should not continue
with his demonstration because the POTUS and a General told him not to.  I
never said he could say/do anything.  Of course he cannot.  I am talking about
what he actually did say/do.  Are you saying he has not right to have done so?

I also want you to think about your good buddy O.W. Holmes.  Do a little
research about his legacy, in particular the legacy of corporate personhood,
and then tell me if you want to invoke his words for the defense of limited
freedom.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

@Kerryrose

So you should not follow your convictions because they might lead other to act
a certain way?

Oh God, the President and a General warned me that bad things will happen to
others if proceed with my demonstration!  That’s quite a bit of power you are
willing to concede to liars and scumbags.  If POTUS and the top brass are
concerned about saving lives… well I’m sure you know where I’m going with
this.

Sure Pastor Idiot is now a target, but that is his decision to make.  Maybe, just
maybe, the UN workers are just a tiny bit responsible for their own deaths for
fucking around in other people’s land, where they are certainly not welcome. 
But if it makes you feel better, you can blame a no-brain pastor from the land
of the newly wed and the almost dead.

GWS is more to the point.  All actions have consequences, a lot of them
unforeseen.  Pastor Jones will get his.  But I for one, am sick of a society that
kowtows to what may happen if ________.  You can’t draw a picture of
mohammed, people might get killed.  You can’t racially profile terrorists, that
would be unfair.  Come on guys, how can you blame the deaths of UN workers
on the burning of a Koran???

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By TDoff, April 7, 2011 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

thethirdman, speaking of crazy, that you believe a nut job can ‘say (and/or do) anything he pleases’ puts you on the ‘ir’ side of the rational line. The sane amongst us agree with O.W.Holmes Jr.‘s opinion that ‘Falsely shouting fire in a crowded theater’ is not only nuts, but unlawful.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

I don’t advocate limiting his silly actions; I advocate letting the chips fall where they may.  Anybody who chooses to engage in unpopular behavior, however legal it may be, has to live with the consequences.  Abortion doctors go about their business knowing that what they do might make them a bigger target than say the friendly neighborhood pimple leech (dermatologist).  We don’t see the need to afford them any special protection.  Similarly, Rev. Jones provides his unique services advancing the cause of Christ with full knowledge that his reward may be a dirt nap.  I wonder if he’s feeling sleepy?

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kerryrose's avatar

By kerryrose, April 7, 2011 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

the third man

Pastor Idiot was warned about the outcome by the President and General both.  He knowingly put US citizens in danger.  That is a punishable offence.

The zealotry of certain Muslims who are fed up with our idiocy is not my concern. 

Throwing a match to fire with the knowing outcome of US civilian deaths is worthy of arrest.  And I would say individual revenge from family members who lost a loved one.

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By thethirdman, April 7, 2011 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie is the only one here speaking any sense.  The rest of you are crazy! 
This guy can say anything he pleases.  He can burn a hundred Korans if he wants. 
He is no more responsible for a UN workers death than you or I.  If retarded no-
minds half way around the world chose to kill over the burning of a crap book,
who has the problem here?  The pastor is a numbskull as well, but that is his
prerogative, and who are you to limit his silly actions?  Ardee is correct, we don’t
have to emulate his silly religious views, but most of you are confusing just who
committed the atrocities.

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By samosamo, April 7, 2011 at 1:56 pm Link to this comment

****************


Let an infected sore be and it soon infects the whole, where
antiseptic will stop the infection so the sore can be healed. But
since murder and I guess killing is considered not normal I can
at least hope his enemies get to him and the sooner the better.

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By TDoff, April 7, 2011 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Pastor Jones need not worry too much about the number of his enemies. They only include all the sane and rational amongst us, which seems to be becoming an ever-shrinking minority.

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By "G"utless "W"itless Hitler, April 7, 2011 at 12:57 pm Link to this comment

It’s time he took his chances right alongside abortion doctors.  Only it’s a bit more gratifying when a fundi becomes the target of other fundis.

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By ribbie149, April 7, 2011 at 12:08 pm Link to this comment

Last time I looked, the KKK was a “Christian”
organization and Hitler used Christianity as one of his
excuses to kill 6 million Jews.  Characterizing ANY
religion because of the actions of its extremists is
insane and Jones is the poster-boy for bigotry and
insanity. If Jones was consistent, he also should be
burning the Bible.  This clown is not even a real
clergyman and every organized religion should condemn
his actions.  Perhaps the government should force him
to make a fact-finding mission to the middle-east…
without security, of course.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, April 7, 2011 at 11:24 am Link to this comment

Terry Jones is a jerk, but he did not kill anybody (that I know about).  The people in Afghanistan who killed the U.N. workers, on the other hand, did kill people.  The fact that Terry Jones is a jerk does not excuse this, nor does their religion.

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By ardee, April 7, 2011 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

While I understand what lies behind the regrettable comments preceeding mine here I would note only that murder is not a solution to any problems whatsoever.

This so-called man of God is as much a part of what ails this world as any fundamentalist anywhere. I believe him to be wallowing in such self righteous ignorance as to be sure he is in the right. We here should take care not to emulate his stupidity.

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RayLan's avatar

By RayLan, April 7, 2011 at 7:29 am Link to this comment

Maybe if some fanatic Muslims kill this fanatic moronic pseudo-Christian, it will be a welcome euthanasia.

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By JJW, April 7, 2011 at 7:24 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

He doesn’t have a clue on what Jesus tried to teach.

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Mike789's avatar

By Mike789, April 7, 2011 at 7:08 am Link to this comment

This ego-freak; complicit murderer, with his absurd agenda cannot possibly have a full compliment of brain cells.

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kerryrose's avatar

By kerryrose, April 7, 2011 at 5:01 am Link to this comment

If one of the killed UN members was in my family, I would have this evil man on my hit list.

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