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Ear to the Ground

Dutch MP Off the Hook in Hate Speech Case

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Posted on Jun 23, 2011
AP / Evert Elzinga

Dutch politician Geert Wilders talks to reporters in Amsterdam on Thursday after a court acquitted him of inciting hatred.

Depending on how you see it, a Dutch court’s acquittal Thursday of controversial politician Geert Wilders is an instance of hate speech gone unpunished or, as Wilders himself put it, “a victory for freedom of expression in the Netherlands.”

Regardless, he is officially off the hook for charges of inciting hatred with his strongly negative views of Islam, as he laid out in the short film “Fitna” in 2008.

The Independent:

Judge Marcel van Oosten ruled that some of Mr Wilders’ comments may have been “crude and denigrating” but they did not amount to inciting hatred against Muslims and remained within the boundaries of free speech.

Even Mr Wilders’ most inflammatory statements, including the remark that “the core of the problem is the fascist Islam, the sick ideology of Allah and Mohammed as laid down in the Islamic Mein Kampf: the Koran”, amounted to criticism of a religion and therefore were not illegal, the court decided.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, July 1, 2011 at 5:37 pm Link to this comment

Robespierre said: “in Iran Christians and Jews can worship as they wish”

Robespierre, you should defend that statement.

Are you aware of this case, in Iran a man is in death row because he converted to Christianity

http://persian2english.com/?p=22192

Since you made claims as if you knew what you were talking about, I assume you knew that converts to Christianity are jailed in Iran. Why did you want to make it seem like there is freedom there?

Or do you consider this to be the freedom that Christians deserve?

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By Lew Ciefer, June 26, 2011 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

2.

Wilders is not a fascist simply because you say it. He claims to be a right-wing liberal. I really don’t care because I don’t live in Holland and all governments are nothing more than elites ruling over the mass that make up the society. Thus far the so-called democratic form of this arraignment has proved to be the most economically prosperous and liberal (<- original meaning). It is also the most easily subverted.

What concerns me is not Wilders politics as much as the case. It’s not fear mongering. The claims by Wilders, also Germany’s Merckel, Britain’s Cameron, and many others, are legitimate criticisms and easily proven by an overabundance of evidence as opposed to you and your ilk’s standard MO of fabricated ‘facts’ and attacking the messengers.

Why is this case important? Because, the socialist concepts of multiculturalism and political correctness are schemes for arbitrary legalized discrimination and coercion against ethnic majorities in favor of whatever social group government quislings suffering from White guilt deem too stupid and inept to care for themselves. Deleterious and purposely ambiguous laws are being used to persecute citizens of ethnic majorities compelling them to accept largely unwanted and ill-planned social engineering programs that are destroying liberal Western civilization.

The either unwilling or unable to assimilate immigrants are mainly those from Islamic despotisms in Asia, the Middle East and the African continent. Who upon entering the new Promised Land demand the host ethnic majorities change their social norms to fit the ‘sensitivities’ of the immigrants rather then their adapting to long established norms of the host country while sensitivities of the ethnic majorities are never considered or are ignored.

Any expression of outrage or attempt to argue the issue of such insanity by members of the ethnic majorities is rendered impossible due to the arbitrary and deleterious multicultural and politically correct laws which morphs the issue into one of penal concerns rather than intellectual or theological. In short, the ethnic majority is forced by government quislings suffering from White guilt to change its long established norms for the benefit of newly arrived and unappreciative immigrants who, apparently, should never have left their Islamic homelands. This is not only absurd but suicidal.

The charges against Wilders are actually a regression to mediaeval blasphemy laws. It is against the law in the Netherlands to criticize a religion. Albeit they cover all religions these laws were enacted on behalf of Islam. With government approval Sharia courts are operating in Britain. How much longer before some jackass robed in black approves it for the U.S.? Yes, I know Muslims don’t want Sharia courts in the U.S. Yet when the voters of Oklahoma approved an amendment prohibiting any state courts from using Sharia or international law being considered in judicial decision who sued to have it overturned? CAIR! In France, according to Pascal Bruckner, Voltaire’s play ‘Muhammad the Prophet’, can no longer be staged except under police protection. This is of course due to Muslim sensitivities. It seems almost everything about Western civilization offends Muslims one way or another. About the only thing Western civilization doesn’t do is offend them enough to convince them to return from whence they came.

Islam and its quisling White elite ally forget the ferocity and violence perpetrated on the Catholic Church when the people of Europe had enough.

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By Lew Ciefer, June 26, 2011 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment

1.

@ Robespierre115, June 25 at 3:34 pm
‘let’s cut through all the fascist smoke you just blew, without a doubt you’d find a job at a David Duke campaign office in a flash!’

Not impressed Robie, standard evil commie/socialist MO from Uncle Joe’s Red Book of Strategery; ‘attack and label the opponent.’ And as I stated earlier there’s no better label to strike fear into the hearts of cowering white men from the Evil Commie bag of dirty tricks than the label ‘racist.’ And you even pulled out David Duke. Damn!

Robespierre ... wasn’t he that cowardly murdering son of a mange-infested, mongrel dog raped by a jackal from the French Revolution who lost his head—literally—for his cause? He’s a loser. Why would you choose that as a screen name?

As for fascism, Umberto, and his semiotics ... I’ll borrow the words of my favorite intellectual, Bertrand Russell: ‘intellectual rubbish!’ And please understand Robie, I’m trying to be kind.

Neither radical Leftist nor stupid Leftists are enlightened Robie; they’re all deluded. Everybody seeks a better world Robie and the one thing they ALL have in common is that they ALL fail. Marxism, communism, socialism, etc. is rivaled in its human death toll and suffering only by other religions such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, the main difference being that the two principle Apostles, Stalin and Mao, accomplished in a span of about 75 years what other religions did over the span of many centuries. When it comes to killing human beings and perpetrating indescribable suffering on humanity your religion—the State as God—is without parallel. Even Nazis turn green with envy in their graves at the accomplishments of Stalin and Mao.

As for evil capitalism Robie you may want to ask yourself why Mao’s boys have moved away from Evil Commie Economics toward capitalism. There is only one evil commie nation that hasn’t moved toward capitalist economics and that is that evil commie paradise North Korea. Last I heard people were eating grass and tree bark trying to survive.

There’s an undeniable truth in life Robie; migratory routes. Throughout human history humans migrate to areas where there exist better prospects for a more comfortable and secure life. There is no evidence of any migratory routes from any free world nations to Marxist, autocratic, theocratic, or totalitarian paradises. None! It’s always, and without fail, people risking their lives to flee from those evil regimes to capitalist democratic societies. I don’t like money barons and corruption any more than you do Robie, but at least with corrupt money barons there’s work and food enough to say that in the U.S. there are obese poor. You can’t say that about North Korea, can you?

“There is no doubt that in the organization of our economy we have erred on the side of idealism and sometimes even ignored the reality of the objective economic laws we should comply with.”—Fidel Castro

Opps!

I’ll simplify all this adult male bovine excrement about human governments into a package so easy to understand that even a good little comrade like you will, eventually, be able to get your head around it. Robie, there is no Left or Right, no socialism, communism or fascism. I know ... it hurts. There is no literal ideology except one ... big fish eat little fish. That’s it Robie, all the rest is adult male bovine excrement designed to keep the mass of humanity divided into all these different little camps with different colored berets while the status quo remains, basically, safely ensconced above the fray sucking on greasy chicken wings while the masses ... ‘eat cake.’ If you prefer you can follow the advice—not example—of Comrade Michelle and let them ‘eat carrots.’

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By OzarkMichael, June 26, 2011 at 7:07 am Link to this comment

Robespierre listed Iran as one of the better places for Islamic tolerance of Christians. that Christians have rights there and worship freely. Lets see how things went for Christians in Iran this year:[Quote] Iran has arrested about 70 Christians since Christmas in a crackdown that demonstrates the limits of religious tolerance by Islamic leaders who often boast they provide room for other faiths…

Caught in the middle is the small community of Iranian Christians who get together for prayer and Bible readings in private residences and out of sight of authorities. They are part of a wider “house church” movement that has taken root in other places with tight controls on Christian activities such as China and Indonesia…

Groups monitoring Christian affairs in the Islamic world say Iranian authorities see the unregulated Christian gatherings as both a potential breeding ground for political opposition and suspect they may try to convert Muslim in violation of Iran’s strict apostasy laws – which are common throughout the Muslim world and have at times fed extremist violence against Christians and others…

In past years, authorities have staged arrests on Christians and other religious minorities, but the latest sweeps appears to be among the biggest and most coordinated…

The wave of arrests began Christmas morning and since then, opposition websites have reported 70 Christians arrested, including those regarded as pastors in the house church movement. Many were later released, but the reports say more than a dozen remain in detention and officials have hinted more raids are possible.[/Quote]

That, Robespierre, is the sytem which you defend. A system which makes Christians second class citizens. Every day it is quitely enforced, every day the Christians are in hiding.  You call it fluff, i call it persecution.

quotes were from
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20110111/ml-iran-christian-crackdown/

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By OzarkMichael, June 26, 2011 at 5:45 am Link to this comment

I would like to present a little proof of what i am saying about Christians living under the sword of Islam. Scanning the internet for the almost daily occurances is not hard, even if we exclude those places where the US has a military presence (per Robespierre).

For today’s persecution, we find this in Egypt:

A mob of nearly 200 Muslims torched eight Christian homes on Saturday morning in the Upper Egyptian village of Awlad Khalaf. The attack was initiated by a rumor that a house which is being built by Wahib Halim Attia will be turned into a church

http://www.aina.org/news/20110625204733.htm

That story is unusual in that one Christian wasn’t very meek about the mob breaking into his house.

A much better example, also from Egypt, just 2 days ago:

Hundreds of Muslims surrounded the church of St George today in the village of Beni Ahmed West, 7 KM south of Minya, vowing to kill its priest Father George Thabet, who was serving the morning mass and was locked in the church with a number of parishioners.”

Eyewitnesses reported the Muslim mob, in their white dresses and long beards, chanted “We will kill the priest, we will kill him and no one will prevent us.” One of their leaders said that they will “…cut him to pieces.”

It was reported that no police or security of any kind was present during the events.

The attacks on St. George Church trace back to March 23, 2011, when Muslims had surrounded the 100-year old church, which held a renovation license, and ordered the church officials to stop construction immediately and undo what they had completed, otherwise they would demolish the church after Friday prayers. They had placed several demands on the church authorities, including the banning of Father George Thabet from Beni Ahmad village and gave him a time limit of 35 days, later extended to 50 days, to leave the village with his family. Muslims accused him of making extensions to the church and of causing sectarian strife. The Archbishop of Minya had sent a priest two months ago to assist Father George, in order to diffuse the situation, but the Muslims resumed their pressure on the church (AINA 4-9-2011).

Muslims started congregating near the church in small numbers since the evening of June 21, after learning that Father George is returning to the village. It is believed they were angry and wanted to kill him because he defied the ban they placed on him.

http://www.aina.org/news/20110623193821.htm

Thats only looking at Egypt in the past two days.

If there was one, (just one in a year!) incident of Christians anywhere in the world persecuting Muslims like this it would be front page news, it would be on Truthdig. Why? Because it demands that Christians be restrained, which furthers the Leftist political agenda.

Briefly, in these cases where local Muslims terrorize local Christians, the Muslim contention is that the Christians are renovating/building a church, or wanting to turn their home into a secret church. According to Sharia as these Muslims understand it, Christians are not allowed to do this in Muslim lands. During the Muslim mob action, the police usually are nowhere to be seen until after its over.

Usually in these cases we later find the elders from both sides will have a “reconciliation” meeting. The local Christian elders meekly attend, meekly agree to most of the local Muslim elders demands in exchange for protection from the mob. That is why, if the local Muslims feel that the Christians are violating the terms later, they are justified to terrorize the Christians. This is Sharia, specifically the Islamic code of dhimmitude, which is a local agreement for Christians to obtain peace and protection as long as they accept 2nd class status.

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By zonth_zonth, June 26, 2011 at 1:25 am Link to this comment

@robespierre
yea, just as I figured.  You considering my example as just “bizarre random events”... Come off your ivory tower and traffic with the rest of us rabble.  These daily random events are just so inconsequential and boring arent they?

You would not however think so, if you were the policeman or his family affected by the Muslim making fabrications hinged on the premise of political correctness.

Be careful not to make great philosophical declarations of indifference in the tone of, “cant we all just get along?”. It is pompous, immature and naive.

A little basic philosophy/psychology reading by your countryman La Rochefocauld will edify one on what truly lies behing human motivation—self love and ego.
This applies to everyone, even Muslims.

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

@Ozark, I don’t agree with Trotsky on everything, but in that particular instance I fully agree with him. If you have a problem with introducing fascists to the pavement, well, that just says more about you.

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 11:00 pm Link to this comment

@Zonth, The clip you provided doesn’t really mean anything, citing bizarre, random incidents doesn’t prove much to support your argument. You seem to have an unhealthy fear of people in burkas, rest assured they are not a new fashion trend in Europe or the U.S., you have nothing to fear, please continue your normal, daily routine (which I hope doesn’t include masterbating to “Triumph Of The Will”).

My point with Jews and Nazis is that like Jews in 1930s Europe, Muslims are fast becoming easy targets for hysterics, you posting that clip is the same as some Nazi pamphlet in Weimar Berlin ranting “look! look! A Jewish banker was caught swindling some widow!”

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By zonth_zonth, June 25, 2011 at 7:37 pm Link to this comment

Robespierre,

I provide you an example and newsclip from this past week (recent events in time) and you extrapolate from that and my argument a jews and nazis scenario? 
 
I am simply asking for people to abide by a region’s native laws and manners.

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By OzarkMichael, June 25, 2011 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

of course you would agree with Trotsky LOL

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

@Ozark, let’s say Christians are indeed the minority in Lebanon, are they persecuted? Do they have 0 political power? No. Sorry. Some of the most powerful families in the country are Christians and nobody’s burning their churches down. Iraq didn’t see major sectarian conflicts until the US invaded, sectarian clashes in Egypt are most likely the work of classic counterrevolutionary elements wishing to destabilize the country etc. etc.

Of course you would disagree with that particular bit of advice from Trotsky! LOL

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By OzarkMichael, June 25, 2011 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment

Lew, hopefully you agree that it is not in our nature to gang up on one lone Leftist, and Robespierre is only sputtering at this point anyway.

Let us have a possible squabble of our own. I understand that brevity dictates a historical broad brush in order to get to your final point, but please explain this:

Liberty loving Europeans fought Christianity for some 400 years before reducing it to the current state in which it finds itself today.

Take a moment please to flesh that out. Exactly who were these Europeans 400 years ago who fought against Christianity? What group did they belong to? Were they atheists? I have a guess or two, but this is your version of history.

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By OzarkMichael, June 25, 2011 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

Oh,this is too funny.

Robespierre says this to Lew: “Nobody here is making arguments for Mao, Stalin or Pol Pot”

but then Robespierre says this to me: “Trotsky was right, if you can’t convince a fascist then introduce him to the pavement!”

ROFLMAO!  That was classic Leftist doubletalk. You cant make this stuff up!

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By OzarkMichael, June 25, 2011 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

Robespierre said: “Trotsky was right, if you can’t convince a fascist then introduce him to the pavement!”

Only a Leftist would take advice from a mass murdering radical such as Trotsky. Nice start Robespiere!

You are a little out of date on Lebanon. Christians made up 54% of the population… in the 1932 census! 

Its been a long time since Christians were in the majority.

Today in Lebanon Christians are a minority, less than 40%, some say as low as 25%. Either way, the Muslims are the majority.

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

@Ozark,

“I have three problems with what you said Robespierre. First, the fact that some persecuted minority people ally themselves with their majority persecutors does not prove that all is well. Especially in the case of Christians.”

This only exposes your ignorance of the world. The Christians are not a minority in Lebanon, in fact the country is equally divided between Christians and Muslims. Nobody is persecuting Christians in the country, they have very powerful parties both in terms of economics and political power in government. Please go read a book before responding, I recommend “Beware Of Small States” by David Hirst, an excellent recent history of Lebanon.

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 3:34 pm Link to this comment

@Lew Ciefer, let’s cut through all the fascist smoke you just blew, without a doubt you’d find a job at a David Duke campaign office in a flash!

Wilder’s is indeed a fascist. His stances are based on tribal, nationalist attitudes appealing to the masses’ fear in difficult economic times, in fact, research Umberto Eco’s basic blueprint for what constitutes a fascist movement and you will see Wilder’s profile before your eyes. He does promote centralization, the centralization around one specific group and identity, excluding a specific group and religion from what he sees as a decent, functioning society. Like the Nazis he is directing the attention of the masses towards phantom threats, in this case Islam did not crash the European economy, but Wilders would have you believe that immigrants in mosques are more dangerous than capitalist barons and bankers looting societies.

Nobody here is making arguments for Mao, Stalin or Pol Pot, you simply pulled those rabbits out of your fear-mongering hat, we’re discussing here Wilders and his hysterics. Yes we on the radical left ARE enlightened, we seek a better world, not one dominated by fantasies, stereotypes and fear like the insane right-wing represented by Wilders and his pathetic brand of followers.

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 3:27 pm Link to this comment

@Zonth, so Jews in 1930s Europe should have just shut up and adapted to German racial designs? Trotsky was right, if you can’t convince a fascist then introduce him to the pavement!

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By Jim Yell, June 25, 2011 at 2:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The interesting thing about a negative reaction to my previous statement is that no effort is made to refute what I said as untrue, just that I am supposed to be timid in my disgust with Christianity as well as Islam.

The fact is the two instances I speak of are just the tip of the ice berg and if we go into history we find that Islam, like Christianity was never above the underhanded use of murder and theft to force conversion. The lands now recognized as Islamic were taken by force and the relgions there were either destroyed or marginalized. Very much the process used by Christians in forcing Christian belief with secret deals made with self appointed Roman Emperors.

As to not mentioning Catholics by name the problems with Catholic’s fall also into those who are Fundamentalist. If one pays attention to the Vatican’s pronouncements recently it is clear that anyone in good standing with the Church can not be in the mold of previous Catholic Politicians in this country. Not when the church tells them they can lose their relgion if they put their obligations to their fellow citizens above the Fundamentlist Vatican principles.

The religous of any degree are so dreary. I have held my tongue for decades because why start an argument with an idiot and beside most of them are related to me in one fashion or another. But, if you pay attention you will find the Regligious even not so Fundamentlist are never bashful about hurting peoples opinions are making fun of them. Well I think it is time that people stop giving the Religious a free pass to be jackasses. Islam or Christian or any other variety you might mention. Feel free to be religious, but I have the right to point out you are a hypocrit and should put your own house in order.

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By zonth_zonth, June 25, 2011 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment

robespierre:
you simply cannot be allowed to live in a host country and make demands upon it (let alone make false accusations hiding behind a leaden abstract called political correctness).  One must be respectfull and make an effort.  If you travel or live in other countries I would imagine you might make an effort.  Am I wrong?  It is simply a matter of good manners.

To act otherwise is to known by the cavemen.

http://youtu.be/jspEIBf_q0M

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By Lew Ciefer, June 25, 2011 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

2.

One of Evil’s most effective muzzling devices used against ‘freedom of expression’ is the invention of the term ‘Islamophobia.’ This term, pulled right out of the arses of fundamentalists, was invented in the 1970s to castigate and persecute an American feminist, Kate Millet, who was—supposedly—inciting (encouraging) Iranian women to remove their chadors.



It has been a useful term in muzzling free speech and rightful criticism of Islam and adherents to Islamic dogma because it is fallaciously propagated as being a parallel to the term xenophobia. By paralleling Islamophobia with xenophobia Islamists, the ‘Enlightened’ of the Left and their myrmidons are able to brand any critic of Islam and Muslims as a racist. And as we all know there is hardly a more frightful branding from the big bag of Evil Commie tricks in this wacko politically correct, multiculturalist world than that of ‘racist’; albeit there is hardly a more racist class of humans than the evil communist/socialist ‘Enlightened’ and Islamic dogmatists.


The error with the term ‘Islamophobia’ is that neither Islam nor Muslims is/are a race. Islam is a religion and Muslim is a term to indicate an adherent of Islam which is comprised of all races on the planet. And one doesn’t fear a religion; one laughs at it, denigrates it, and exposes the evil oppression perpetrated on mankind by its mad dogmas and fanatical believers. We can never repeat this enough if Good is to prevail over Evil.

So what’s my point?

You can criticize Islam for what it is without being tyrannized by all that insane and suicidal Western guilt that has been inculcated into you by all those poltroonish, pansy-assed, ‘Enlightened’ blue-eyed wannabe emirs of the political left. You don’t have to quid pro quo for fear of being labeled a racist. You are already being labeled a racist for daring to speak negatively—however appropriate the criticism—of the Left’s new BFF’s religion. Wear the label proudly.

Westerners need to cease and desist with this ridiculous attempt to atone for what we have supposedly inflicted on other parts of humanity because those other parts of humanity are just as guilty of having perpetrated even more horrendous inflictions on other parts of humanity.

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By Lew Ciefer, June 25, 2011 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

1.
By Jim Yell, June 24 at 6:44 am
I put Islam in with Funamentalist Christianity in being a hateful and wrong headed religion.
Just like Funamentalit Christians.
By thethirdman, June 24 at 12:18 am
Fuck Islam.  Only thing worse is
Christianity.

Oy vey!

Did you two study at the same School of the Unenlightened?

Liberty loving Europeans fought Christianity for some 400 years before reducing it to the current state in which it finds itself today. Still at times a pain in the arse, but pretty much domesticated. The same cannot be said of Islam and thus my amusement in your comparing the two. Islam, unlike modern Christianity, evangelical or otherwise, is better compared to Medieval Catholicism; rapacious. Wouldn’t you agree?

Too often one witnesses actions such as yours: the fiery negative criticisms of Islam, followed by the nervous twitch, the fearful glancing left and right, and with head hung low the obligatory tit for tat thrashing of Christianity and Christians to demonstrate that one is fair and balanced; proving once again that the Evil Totalitarians’ liberty destroying political correctness and multiculturalist inculcation of the dumbed-down and fearful base has been effective.

Today, the main enemy of Liberty and Truth is an alliance made in hell of two opposites, the so-called political left and fanatical Islam. That is, Evil Communism and Evil Theocratic/Autocratic Fascism in a marriage of convenience against what is labeled the Evil Right-Wing; a coalition of Neo-conservatives, Christian Evangelicals, Conservatives, etc. Simplified, with all façades removed, it is evil totalitarian forces attempting to crush Truth and freedom promoting, secular Liberalism (<- original meaning before perverted by evil commies and socialists).

The Wilders case is a very important fire-fight in the never ending struggle between the forces of Good, secular liberalism, and the forces of Evil Autocratic/Theocratic Totalitarianism.

If liberty loving peoples are unable to speak out about the evil that is multiculturalism, political correctness, and the suicidal and uncontrolled emigration of Muslims from Islamic despotisms in Asia, the Middle East, and the African continent to the West for fear of unjust governmental persecution, how is the truth of what are the concerns of many millions of liberty and truth loving peoples to be heard so that corrective counter measures might be undertaken?

When ‘Truth’ is outlawed and speaking it is a crime men are in deep excrement. If Muslims are above being held accountable for their actions done in the name of Islam how can they be treated as equals? Are they all, like Wall Street bankers, U.S. Senators, Representatives, and Presidents, immune to accountability? If so, it is not equality under secular law that they seek but rather privilege and enslavement of the untermensch.

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By Lew Ciefer, June 25, 2011 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

@ Robespierre115, June 24 at 6:11 pm
Wilders is a disgusting pile of scum. Every now and then history vomits fascist parasites like him.

Interesting!

The topic is about his having been found not guilty of trumped-up, arbitrary, and pernicious political correctness laws designed to muzzle legitimate free speech. In Wilders’ case it was speech expressing concern and views of Islam and the negative effects that uncontrolled immigration of adherents of Islamic religious culture from the Middle East, Asia, and the African continent is having on his homeland specifically, and the West in general, and you refer to him as a fascist.

What has his being—if he indeed is—a proponent of a centralized socio-economic governmental system headed up by a dictator got to do with justice having won the day and protected a hard-earned—over centuries—and principle right—freedom of expression—of Western liberalized civilization? (<- That’s liberal under its original meaning, before the dirty commies and socialists perverted it)

A secondary definition of fascist is ‘a reactionary’ and if you’re using that definition then I’d advise caution because when it comes to reactionary not only are the adherents of the religion in question infamous for being violently reactionary—remember the political commentary cartoons?—but your own comments are extremely reactionary and deeply offensive and as a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Hindu non-believer I am deeply offended that you would label one of god’s own children such.

Perhaps you’d prefer that history would vomit us up another Stalin or Mao? What was the count on those two comrades? More than 110 million dead in less than 75 years and how does one even count the lost of entire lifetimes wasted living in indescribable suffering? Perhaps another Pol Pot—a professor wasn’t he?—would suit you better with 4.5 million—more than half the Cambodian population at the time—in just a few years. Then there’re the deities of North Korea and we could mention the Middle East but only in private because of muzzling by the politically correct. 

What makes him a fascist?

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By OzarkMichael, June 25, 2011 at 10:02 am Link to this comment

Robespierre said:

As for the hysterical portrait of rampaging Muslims against Christians in the Middle East it’s all fluff, in Lebanon for example powerful Christian parties are allied with Hezbollah, in Iran Christians and Jews can worship as they wish, interestingly enough, where there is violence against Christians is in countries where the US has applied a heavy, violent presence.

I have three problems with what you said Robespierre. First, the fact that some persecuted minority people ally themselves with their majority persecutors does not prove that all is well. Especially in the case of Christians.

I find it fascinating that Leftists demand that Christians be forgiving, meek, and mild in the face of insults and threats, and yet when we find Christians living meekly(which persecuted Christians are famous for in the Middle East) Leftists try to use that forgiving meekness as evidence that nothing is wrong, that the Christians are not under any threat.

It is for those pious Christians who are being persecuted, for their sake, that i am willing to be less of a Christian in your eyes. One way or another the Leftists must learn that they are enablers of persecution against Christians. Leftists must learn of their terrible hypocrisy and they wont learn it from meek, forgiving Christians. So I draw a line in the sand and dare you to cross it. 

I have not proven my case to you yet, Robespierre. All i am doing is explaining the dynamic involved. Actually I am not even done with that. So go find your Leftist friends and also your Islamist friends, Robespierre, you are going to need all the help you can get.

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By OzarkMichael, June 25, 2011 at 5:54 am Link to this comment

I said: “Keeping that in mind, it is a common occurance for Muslim citizens in Muslim countries to attack the minority Christian churches and even kill the congregation members.”

and I also said: “(...) the people in most peril from their neighbors is Christians inside Muslim countries, not the other way round.”


Robespierre, a Leftist, complains:

For example Ozark never mentions where Muslims are burning down Christian churches or beheading Christians in Europe (...)


Clearly I was speaking about places where the majority are Muslims, where Islamic Sharia justifies and encourages persecution of Christians. That was obvious. Europe is not such a place. Thats also obvious. How can Robespierre back up his statement? Will he even try?

Second, my post was a brief introduction to the topic. I presented my opinion. Robespierre has presented his opinion. After that opening, facts must be presented. Thats how it works.

Go on, you first, Robespierre. Try to prove that Muslims are the majority in Europe. Go on, try to prove that Islamic Sharia is the law of the land in Europe. That was the line of your attack on me, so follow through.

Oh, I know the script which Leftists like Robespierre follow. Faced with a challenge to have a debate, faced with certain defeat, suddenly he will become indignant, suddenly he ‘wont stoop to debate’ the likes of me. We conservatives hear that from Leftists often. Even from the Best of them!

All Robespierre will have for proof of his opinion are insults and name calling. Bet money on that. To gain the appearance of having some truth Leftists need three or four comrades to applaud them. Do you have enouygh here with you, Robespierre? Oh Yeah. Go for it!

But Robespierre wont argue like a man, he will just throw crappy insults around. Thats ok, these days I throw the insults right back at him. Leftists dont like it, too bad. But if on the slim chance that he actually wants to have a logical argument, I am more than ready with plenty of facts. As always. 

But with a proponderance of Leftists a good debate, as well as civilization itself, is sure to go down the toilet.

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By Robespierre115, June 25, 2011 at 2:52 am Link to this comment

Zonth and Ozark basically prove that civilization is going down the toilet. For example Ozark never mentions where Muslims are burning down Christian churches or beheading Christians in Europe (where the Europeans themselves have abandoned Christianity) or the US (where people care more about paying the bills). As for the hysterical portrait of rampaging Muslims against Christians in the Middle East it’s all fluff, in Lebanon for example powerful Christian parties are allied with Hezbollah, in Iran Christians and Jews can worship as they wish, interestingly enough, where there is violence against Christians is in countries where the US has applied a heavy, violent presence.

Grow up.

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By zonth_zonth, June 25, 2011 at 12:43 am Link to this comment

The religion of islami provides a veil to hide ignorant juvenile behaviour.  Investigate the recent Australian cop who was falsely accused of racism.  The women accused the cop of forcing her to take off her burqa and of course Racism.  Fortunately the cop had the recorder cam on the front of his car, exculpating him from any and all such behavior.  It was indeed a complete fabrication by the “pious” twit.  Falsely claiming Racism is a facade for ignorant, malicious, weaklings to hide behind.

Just as religion itself gives individuals an excuse to behave as they please all the while being impuned by their devotion to falsity.

Political correctness and false pride both provide an amalgam that will rot the US.  Such is deserved by chicken hearted poltroonery.

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By OzarkMichael, June 24, 2011 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

gerard said ”insulting Muslims is not much different from yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theater.”

rico replied: “Do you seriously believe that? What about insulting Christians, or Republicans, or capitalists, or Girl Scouts?”

Well said. But there is more to it then that.

If Leftists really believe that what we say should be limited by the possible results of our rhetoric, I propose that we must consider our words here on the internet to effect the worldwide community.  Keeping that in mind, it is a common occurance for Muslim citizens in Muslim countries to attack the minority Christian churches and even kill the congregation members.  Doesnt happen in America that we citizens form a mob and kill our fellow Muslim citizens. You dont see mosques burned down in the USA every month. You dont see Muslims citizens sentenced to death for blasphemy here.

Logically then, the Leftists ought to cease their inflammatary Christianophobic rhetoric. They should clamour for laws that prohibit hate speech against Christians. Because the people in most peril from their neighbors is Christians inside Muslim countries, not the other way round.

Except Leftist hate speech laws arent designed to protect people in danger, no dear me, no. Leftist accusations of hate speech serve one purpose: to further the Leftist political agenda. Thats all.

Folks like Chris Hedges and his Truthdiggers need their whipping post terms like “Fascist Christians”, it scores political power points.  And if some Egyptian Muslims read that crap and think the American Left approves of their anger against the local Christians, it makes it that much easier for them to just go down the street and torch a church or two.

Nice going Chris Hedges! Truthdig wins a Webby! 

There are consequences of what we say, indeed there are. Not that the Truthdiggers care about that.

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By Robespierre115, June 24, 2011 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

Wilders is a disgusting pile of scum. Every now and then history vomits fascist parasites like him.

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By rico, suave, June 24, 2011 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

gerard:

” insulting Muslims is not much different from yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theater.”

Do you seriously believe that? What about insulting Christians, or Republicans, or capitalists, or Girl Scouts?

Must I drag out all the trite “I may hate what you say, but I’ll defind…” cliches about what freedom of speech really means?

I fear your hope that the cooling of hysteria is code for people adopting more politically correct speech.

Jim Yell:

Wow! I agree!

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By diamond, June 24, 2011 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

“Fuck Islam.  Only thing worse is
Christianity.”

Wrong. The only thing worse is sectarian hatred and the way politicians use it to create fear and hatred for their own political benefit. This Dutchman is a hateful, bigoted creep. He’s Holland’s very own Hitler so he’s got a hide talking about ‘Mein Kampf’. Most of what he’s said about Muslims mirrors closely what Hitler had to say about the Jews and their religion and their ‘contamination’ of the purity of Aryan society. My guess is Wilders knows next to nothing about Islam and doesn’t know any Muslims but as the idiot always says at an art exhibition, “I don’t know much about art - but I know what I like.”

The people fighting and dying for democracy right now in the Middle East are Muslim too but you won’t hear a word of praise for them from cretins like Wilders because he only knows how to hate and most especially how to hate anything he perceives as being ‘different’ to him. I just have to laugh when all these former colonial powers have to deal with the aftermath of their colonial past. All I can say is, you did the crime and now you’ll have to do the time.

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By Shenonymous, June 24, 2011 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

I have followed this case in printed and online media since its
beginning.

Assimilation is one way to subvert a culture.  Problem is that
the militant Islamists do not culturally honor the concept of free
speech (I don’t know about the non-militant Islamists so I have
no opinion except to say that if they abhor violence, then I give
them credit for it) .

Politically correct is a matter of perspective.  Is it possible to have a
non-relative truth? 

I am glad the Wilders case is done.  It did provide a window on the
attitude of Europeans and the power that fascistic-like political entities
can bring to bear on a society.  But I do not think the issue that brought
him to court is really over, such as the murder of Theo van Gogh has
git perpetrator in jail, and the persecution of Ayaan Hirsi Ali has not
gone away.  Wilders, van Gogh, and Ali are only three, and three
publicly visible cases.  How many uncountable are there that have been
murdered or maimed by the intolerant interpreters of a religion? 
Strawdogging, yes it is when saying the same in the feverish attitudes is
found in Fundamentalist Christianity.  Perhaps a side issue but it is one
that needs exposed.  Violence can now be found also in the doctrinaire
peaceful Buddhism in the Sri Lanka conflict.  Things might just get
much worse before mankind rights itself and get on the right peaceful
track.

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By Lew Ciefer, June 24, 2011 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

Accused of being divisive and inflammatory. Yes, the truth can be very divisive and inflammatory especially when it’s been suppressed for decades due to the insane and suicidal ideology of political correctness and multiculturalism; especially as imposed by the self-loathing, guilt-ridden, poltroonish enablers of the West.

Those are deleterious and purposely arbitrary laws designed to permit legal discrimination and muzzling of ethnic majorities. That is to say, mainly lower and middle class whites and Christians of Western nations.

It’s incredible how ‘rights’ and ‘liberty’ are inverses in the politically correct, multiculturalist, Socialist world.


Many millions—and growing daily—are sick and tired of the pernicious, anti-Western, one way street that is multiculturalism and political correctness. If all cultures were equal there wouldn’t be the overwhelming migratory flood from principally Middle Eastern, Asian, and African continent Islamic despotisms to Europe and the U.S.

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By Jim Yell, June 24, 2011 at 6:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I put Islam in with Funamentalist Christianity in being a hateful and wrong headed religion. In Holland where Islam gets strong legal protection we have no quid pro quo from Islam. They will use their growing numbers to subvert the accepting social attitudes of the Dutch. This is shown by their hostility to their Host Countries Culture.

In Thailand, where the coast area was settled by Islamic pirates—the Islamic population has been given much difference by the Buddist Nation and their reward for such kindness is on going violence.

I think history shows Islam is not a good neighbor and that their culture doesn’t fit well in a humanistic culture. Like the cow bird chick they try to push everyone else out. Just like Funamentalit Christians.

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By thethirdman, June 24, 2011 at 12:18 am Link to this comment

“Wilders has said very extreme things about Muslims and Moroccans, so when will
it ever stop?”

Typical.  Try to legislate things you don’t want to hear.  Muslims in Europe are
adding to their own plight with further division.  Fuck Islam.  Only thing worse is
Christianity.

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By gerard, June 23, 2011 at 7:12 pm Link to this comment

What limits complete and unfettered freedom of speech is the results, considering the environment in which they are uttered. What is gained?  What is lost?  Always a difficult judgment in “crunch times.”
Considering the amount of anti-Muslim feeling currently stirring up prejudice in “Christian” countries, insulting Muslims is not much different from yelling “Fire!” in a crowded theater. Hopepfully, the hysteria will die down, and more “space” will be freed up for tolerance of careless insults and radical criticisms.  Then there’s this:  More people will empathize with each other’s sensitivities and adopt a “kinder, gentler” vocabulary for the sake of fostering peaceful relations.

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