MarthaA, you are an atheist just like ThomasG. Stop trying to use two different names on this forum.

There are only three (3) economic class and cultural groups in the United States:  The 10% minority Elite Capitalist Class and Culture, the 20% minority Middle Class and Culture and the 70% Majority Common Populace Class and Culture.

All other Middle Class designations are tropes to deceive the Majority Population of the class and culture they really are, divided and separated them as individuals seeking to find their way into the Middle Class that separated from the Majority Common Population in the 1980’s and represents itself as a separate entity apart from the Majority Common Population.

News is that the conservative DLC that represents the Middle Class and Culture is supposedly not being funded anymore, which is highly unlikely as their funding came from the Right in the first place, not the Left; therefore it would seem their act is only a metamorphosis of nonidentity in preference to disguise their identity under the name PPI, Progressive Policy Institute, instead, but is the same organization, the conservative DLC. http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/Democratic_Leadership_Council_will_fold.html?showall

The Conservative PPI/DLC neocon cancer leading the Democrats that divided their 20% minority class and culture out of the populace against the populace’s best interest must be removed from Congress in its entirety.  Every last semblance of the DLC must be removed from the Liberal Left’s side of Congress and not allowed to hold on to control in any kind of form, because the 70% Majority American Common Populace class and culture have enough to deal with with the Democratic Party not representing them as a class and culture, and having to deal with the Republican Party that never has represented the American Common Populace as a class and culture,  but to have the PPI/DLC also misrepresenting the Left, the 70% Majority American Common Populace Class and Culture, and only representing the 20% Middle Class as the entire Left just must not continue to be allowed. 

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/Democratic_Leadership_Council_will_fold.html?showall

U.S. interventions in the Middle East began at the very latest during World War 2.  However, since the U.S. seamlessly took over the British imperialism franchise in the Middle East after that period, you could say they began before the 20th century.

****************

By Tobysgirl, February 7 at 1:01 am
““I can never figure why so-called Christian nations are always
going on about Muslim extremism.”“
*****************

One thing is sure, when and if these x-nations look at
themselves in the mirror, they see them wallowing in the hand
of their god almighty comfortable in the thought and glory
that they are the most righteous.

Marshall, per usual:

How can you blame NATO occupations and actions for events that happened well before these occupations began?  Indeed one of these occupations was a direct response to a terrorist attack.

NATO occupations were deemed necessary because of the long history of exploitation the West commits upon the ME. By the time “boots are on the ground” the seeds of discontent have flowered into large trees.

That attack was a crime, one that should have engendered a response from police forces, both domestic and international. Instead it was used as an excuse, for both further profits for our MIC and in order to establish a unitary executive by the worst President in US history.

@Robespierre115, terrorist training needn’t happen in country and 9/11 is
obvious proof of that.  And plenty on the left have been accusing the US of
responsibility for ME terrorism since 9/11.  But to believe it’s true is to take
groups like AQ at their word when the reality is far more complicated.  How can
you blame NATO occupations and actions for events that happened well before
these occupations began?  Indeed one of these occupations was a direct
response to a terrorist attack.

Far from funding a “brutal regime”, the US provides paltry aid to Yemen or
Somalia which have mostly corrupt or nonexistent governments and the US
certainly didn’t “destroy” either country.  Growing terrorism in Somalia has
nothing to do with the US and everything to do with the failed state and
resulting power vacuum that breeds lawlessness and provides uncontrolled
territory for use by terrorists from outside - just as Afghanistan did before
9/11. 

Data show the majority of ME terrorists involved in plots against US and Europe
are 2nd generation immigrants - not born and radicalized in their own
countries, but instead free of any national allegiance.  This contradicts the
picture painted by many of home-grown terrorists with legitimate grievances
who volunteer to avenge their causes abroad.

The different class and cultural groups are only three:  the Elite Capitalists, the Middle Class and the Common Populace.

frecklefever:  “WHEN ONES CULTURE IS DESTROYED THAT
BECOMES A LIVING DEATH…NATIVES UNDERSTAND THIS…THAT’S WHY AGAINST THE GREATEST ODDS THEIR CULTURE CONTINUES.” (preservatioin largely due to violent pressure to give up and give in

The point is, and was, “multiculturism” which for want of a better summary, is the goal of “more than several single, identifiable cultures blending together in an attempt to assimilate"peaceably—or words to that effect.
  Nobody is defending the sudden violent deliberate destruction of a culture, under violent conquest. “Multiculturiasm” implies more gradual non-violent methods such as commercialism, travel, proximity, education etc. Usually, the more violent the rejection of one culture in order to install another, the more bitterly those oppressed hold onto their “native” culture—naturally.
  The more gradual development of a “world culture” seems to be occurring now due to both violent and non-violent cross-fertilizations.  No matter the method, change is always unsettling.  The closer people become, the more tolerant understanding is needed and the higher the chances that differing cultures can be maintained.
  Pushing “democracy” at the point of a gun is evil, the same as pushing a religious or economic dogma via violence is evil.  It is also self-defeating. 
  Ironically, whether we admit it or not, capitalism (preaching its own superiority and pushing its ideology using every method known) is the most pernicious “culture-destroyer” around the world. It does not permit “multiculturalism” but only dominance, superiority and self-replication. That’s a much bigger problem than how many Muslims live in London or whether the children of illegal aliens, when born in the U.S., have the “right” to education and health insurance—important as that is!
  If we don’t find some effective way to “teach multiculturalism” we will be in for more violent confrontations as nobody wants to give up what he considers to be part of his very nature.
  First generation immigrants generally experience more or less painful inner conflicts on this issue. In most cases, second-generation people, while somewhat conflicted, are freer of pain and more “adjusted” (for want of a better word).By the third generation, most people are “assimilated” (also for want of a better word.)  Ideally, assimilation is more a choice, less a requirement, but humans tend to fear differences, and economic differences preserve class and race distinctions, whick keeps people disunited and weak, so ...

I can never figure why so-called Christian nations are always going on about Muslim extremism. I like the person who asked why all those people wondering about Muslim suicide bombers never seem to wonder why Christian and Jewish young men happily get into airplanes and drop bombs on people.

I believe there is a growing right-wing Christian movement in the U.K. and no one can deny its existence in the U.S. My husband works with these people and calls them vampires. They are ignorant, vicious, loud, racist, and willfully stupid. They are far more of a concern to me than Muslim extremists.

My reading of the article was that Cameron was at least superficially on about national identity, which one must admit is a difficult and practical consideration in a state which ran a world empire for a couple of centuries and which in fact consists of several previous countries (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland) which have never been fully digested.  I don’t know where he’s going with that.  Fascism doesn’t seem to have been openly suggested thus far.  Perhaps it’s just a distraction.

@Gerard, yes my statement was paranoid and nuts, which is why I wrote it, to make a point about the kind insane garbage people here are peddling.

@Marshall, who is setting up terrorist camps in Britain? Or the US? And why isn’t anyone discussing why radical groups have emerged in the Middle East? Let’s see, NATO is only occupying TWO countries and bombing a third one, while funding brutal regimes in Yemen, Somalia, Saudi Arabia etc. etc. We destroy these countries, then we’re shocked that a large chunk of the population flees to Western shores. Much like in the 1980s when immigration from Central America spiked due to Reagan’s brutal terrorist wars.

MERKEL WAS THE FIRST TO RAISE THE FLAG AGAINST MULTICULTURISM…ONES CULTURE IS MORE
BIOLOGICAL THAN IS ASSUMED…WE CARRY OUR ANCESTORS PROCLIVITIES WAY BEYOND JUST
THE RACIAL MAKEUP…THEY ARE IN THE DNA…CULTURE IS IN MANY WAYS THE STRONGEST
DETERMINATE…AND TO ARGUE THAT IT IS ALWAYS IN FLUX IS SUPERFICIAL…A ONE GLOBAL
CULTURE IS NAIVE AND AN INTELLECTUALS OPIUM…WHEN ONES CULTURE IS DESTROYED THAT
BECOMES A LIVING DEATH…NATIVES UNDERSTAND THIS…THAT’S WHY AGAINST THE GREATEST
ODDS THEIR CULTURE CONTINUES..

“Better watch out, these schools could produce a new generation of Mexican guerrilla fighters who will team up with the radicalized Muslim students and go on a rampage” This statement is so paranoid that it would be funny if it weren’t so dangerously prejudicial.  Furthermore:

“America is the multiculturalism experiment of
humankind.”  This is just one more ezample of “American exceptionalism: nonsense.  History is full of examples of “intercultural exchange”—most of it caused by conquest, but ultimately resulting in mutual exchange of different ideas and beliefs—some changes “good,” some “bad” depending on point of view.  Probably the most significant, worldwide culture-changer is the Internet and other advancing technical possibilities.  A new kind of “conquest”, that’s for sure.

When a kid in a cafe in Yemen watches a YouTube video of Israeli bulldozers plowing down a Palestinian house, while a college girl in Sweden dances to the music of the Buena Vista Social Club or stumbles onto a clip from a Japanese Noh Play, you can bet that multiculturalism is “taking over the world” bit by bit if not sooner.

Arguing over whether to “teach” it, or not, and if so, how, is a kind of rhetorical parlor game.

Meanwhile, root issues like causes of rage, elitism, prejudice and empathy go unaddressed.  Why?  Largely because claiming superiority is a way of separating people, and people who are separated are easier to control by teaching fear of others.  Simple, but profound.

The “center” of the issue is the technological advance in communication that is elevating World Consciousness, and as long foretold, making the Earth a Global Village. Notice that the first act to silence Egyptian dissent was seizure and the shutting down of InterNet, Cell Phone and Tweet. Likewise, U.S. Gov./Corporate attempts to monopolize and control access to high speed, rage against WikiLeaks and labeling J.Assange/B.Manning terrorists, is by extension a war on World Consciousness. Truth is Light and those who fear and distort it are not your friends.

    “Isms” are dying. GCC, World Consciousness, exponential population explosion, Eco-System failure and access to failing food and water resources are the determinates of this “New Age”. This article is proof of my argument.

      The migration of Eastern European/Arab peoples into Europe and the Northward migration of Mexican/Latin American peoples into the U.S. is the result of failed economic and political systems. Whatever your opinion of Prime Minister Cameron or the “illegals” problem in America today, there is no question that when the coming failure of Equatorial Eco-Systems begins the migration Northward of literally millions of starving and desperate peoples could equal apocalypse.  On the home front, the open looting of U.S. treasure by an avaricious elite, perpetual war, and (it seems intentional) disintegration of social/financial systems and infrastructure left us unable to respond to Katrina, the Gulf spill or even clear snow from the streets in our major cities this winter. Artificial manipulation of food/water/energy prices World Wide is already happening.

    People don’t pack up and leave their homes by the millions for no reason. The chaos and political violence we’re discussing is the result of for profit wars, black market economics and failed political systems that violate human moral reason to enrich the few and enslave the many.

    Mankind is at a crossroads. One World. One People in balance with the Living Earth—or perish.

l’d best answer Ozarkmichaels response to my criticism by citing the words of another who responded to the same angst, anger and separatism that sparked my reply:

Robespierre115, February 6 at 9:54 am Link to this comment

@OzarkMichael You’re blowing a lot of smoke and just recycling paranoid rants

That about sums it up, and thanks to that poster for those words.

rollzone, February 6 at 5:09 pm Link to this comment

hello again. ardee, America is the multiculturalism experiment of humankind. there are distinct boundaries to being an American citizen. violence against fellow citizens to further your own agenda is intolerable.

Back atcha rollzone,

Yes , however using the violence of an extremist few, and radical Islam is comprised of a few tens of thousands out of a population of 1.4 billion, to ban or otherwise single out non extremist groups and lump them unthinkingly with the few, the misguided is plainly wrong.

To also ignore the violence committed upon the Islamic world while using their own such deeds as a reason to isolate and vilify them is equally wrong. I offer the refusal of NYC to consider a Muslim cultural center two blocks from the site of the Twin Towers disaster as proof of that wrongheadedness.

A policy like that Mr. Cameron proposes can only lead to further apartness, estrangement, vilification and a continuance of violence,  against the followers of Islam, the vast majority of whom do not condone the actions of AlQaeda or any other group with a Muslim identity that practices radical interpretations of that religion, the largest organized religion in the world..

ardee said: Just what we need, more separatism, more bigotry, more targets for our wrath.

and

You choose to believe that this is the issue but the article indicates plainly that the real issue is much broader in scope and far less cerebral than you posit.

Wrong. Actually I go a bit further on this issue than than Cameron does. From the article:

In the speech, Mr Cameron drew a clear distinction between Islam the religion and what he described as “Islamist extremism” - a political ideology he said attracted people who feel “rootless” within their own countries.

“We need to be clear: Islamist extremism and Islam are not the same thing,” he said.

The issue is presented by Cameron as Nice Islam/Bad Islamic extremism.  What exactly is Islamic extremism anyway? Cameron employs either/or to create the sharp divide, but I contend that we dont understand what we are talking about well enough to make that divide.

I am the one who thinks the issue is broader.  Any policy based on that either/or concept is already starting with misconceptions. It is doomed to fail.

However, if you even come near to speaking about the the issue you get accused of ‘fascism’, ‘racism’, ‘separatism’, ‘bigotry’ as Cameron has. But at some point a government ought to ask if its policy and programs are effective.

From the article:

The government is currently reviewing its policy to prevent violent extremism, known as Prevent, which is a key part of its wider counter-terrorism strategy

When a policy isnt working, when the government program is caught doing more harm than good, a review is a good thing.

But I go further. I request a review of the underlying concepts. This of course makes me even more fascist, bigoted, angry, etc, than Cameron, because he accepts a great deal more of your multiculturalism than i do. i question the concept itself.

One more point… The problem with all this name calling is that you wear out the names by using them so freely and without any proof whatsoever. Read the first two posts on this thread and you should see what i mean.

Someday you might have to hurl truthful accusations at the real thing, but your words are so weakened by your false accusations that the true usage will be dulled and ineffective. It will only be seen as more ‘name calling’ someday when the real thing needs to be called out.

ardee said this:

Extremism is not the issue here, only the goad that propels us towards a continuation of misunderstandings.

I agree 100%

hello again. ardee, America is the multiculturalism
experiment of humankind. there are distinct
boundaries to being an American citizen. violence
against fellow citizens to further your own agenda is
intolerable. politics is at times childish
appeasement for votes or support, and this photo chop
is an obvious attempt at regaining his mojo. if he
truly believes funding extremism within his borders
is resulting in bodily harm to his citizenry, or has
the future potential of violent aggression (not by
Muslims, but by extremists), and his stance empowers
greater civility, then he gains political stature. i
agree his stance should be stronger against perceived
extremism, and even circumspect funding should halt.
multiculturalism gains a more fertile environment by
establishing strong boundaries of acceptable social
behavior, which is why our liberties are framed
within a democratic republic. if you are not truly
intending to blend in with our norms, why else would
you come here?

By OzarkMichael, February 6 at 5:08 am

Your observation about the far left’s recasting of stupidity as tolerance is right
on, and I think one reason (at least in the US) is that many on the far left share
what they believe to be radical Islam’s rejection of the main of western capitalist
society and find in it an expression of their own anger or sense of alienation or
anti-corporatist sentiment or take-your-pick grievance.  In the US, many on
the left minimize the jihadist threat despite its long history of lethal high profile
attacks dating well back into the 80s against both Europe and the US and see it
simply as an alarmist conspiracy on the part of the right.

Comparing Jihadist terrorism with the general US immigration issue, as you do
Robespierre, is a way to minimize the problem.  Mexican immigrants and legal
Korean shop owners are not running terrorist camps abroad and attempting the
blow up planes and buildings to kill thousands of people.  Both are legitimate
issues but for different reasons, and have different solutions and levels of
urgency.

Cameron’s simple qualifications for receiving state funding are common sense
policy but will be criticized by the left’s PC police and held up as another
example of a fascist rightist agenda.  Strange bedfellows indeed: liberals
defending those who aspire to an ultra-conservative ideology that would
execute them first if it had power.

Just what we need, more separatism, more bigotry, more targets for our wrath.

OzarkMichael, February 6 at 2:33 am Link to this comment

The issue Cameron tackles is whether Great Britain should use tax money to fund certain Muslim organizations:

You choose to believe that this is the issue but the article indicates plainly that the real issue is much broader in scope and far less cerebral than you posit.

rollzone, February 6 at 2:52 am Link to this comment

hello. i can agree with a halt to passive tolerance towards extremism. multiculturalism has to have a boundary for acceptable behavior, based upon local norms.

Extremism is not the issue here, only the goad that propels us towards a continuation of misunderstandings.

Multiculturalism, by definition, is not confined to “local norms”. Of course groups that preach violence and hatred need addressing but the position of Cameron as enumerated here goes much too far and is nothing less than an attack upon everyone not of his own particular ethnicity I fear.

Also, as for that Telegraph article you shared, just more lunacy. In Texas and Arizona they are also behaving like maniacs, rewriting the school textbooks out of fear that Hispanic teachers and “ethnic studies classes” teach hatred of America. Better watch out, these schools could produce a new generation of Mexican guerrilla fighters who will team up with the radicalized Muslim students and go on a rampage!

@OzarkMichael You’re blowing a lot of smoke and just recycling paranoid rants. I agree with the basics of the comments by Cameron you cited about freedom of speech etc., but so what? Where are any of those freedoms being seriously threatened in the UK by Muslims? Is the government adopting Sharia Law? Of course not, this whole debate is insane. Why in the world do the British suddenly feel threatened by this phantom threat? In fact, quite a large percentage of the British population has stopped attending church, quite a large number of churches are being turned into museums, hotels etc. Muslims could care less about repressing Christians in Europe because there are barely any left. When was the last time your own, personal freedom was threatened by Islam?

In the US the stupidity of this paranoia is again demonstrated in how with Muslims its Sharia Law, when it comes to Hispanics its the threat of Spanish “pushing away English,” no doubt all those Koreans who own convenience stores and gas stations are also plotting some sinister takeover. Arab Muslims also own many gas stations in California, I suppose soon we’ll be forced to either convert or live without fuel. We should also keep an eye on Chinatown, there could be double agents in there aiding China’s takeover of the world economy.

Again, you are barking at the wrong tree. Meanwhile, Cameron and his buddies slice and dice the economy as they see fit.

HEY HEY EDL! don´t want to piss off the Muslims or the
English defense League. Caught in the twain and twix,
walking the tight rope of diplomacy, Economic terrorism
has no room for religion, sorry were are busy saving
money through deprivation. No time for God, cost to
much!come back another time. You see when your busy
stealing from the tax payer nationalism is your cover,
poverty equals patriotism. Blimy LIMYS!” Last time I
liked the Brit-dish was the time of Jack or John Donne
For Whom the Bell Tolls.

Robespierre115 speaks: @OzarkMichael… Every fascist movement going back to the 1930s uses flowery language and attractive points to make its case.

Allegations of fascism are a proven successful way to silence criticism. That is the Left’s way. Too many people are afraid to criticize bad behaviour. Unfortunately for you, I am not.

Britain tends to tolerate unacceptable behaviour by Muslims. But that is not really tolerance, its stupidity.

For example an official British education watchdog has published positive reports praising Muslim schools for their contribution to community cohesion — even in the case of a school which openly states that Muslims “oppose the lifestyle of the West”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8114452/Ofsted-praises-Islamic-schools-which-oppose-Western-lifestyle.html

A whole generation of children is being brought up to at the very least suspect, and perhaps even despise, the society they will have to live in. This is deeply worrying for the future of community cohesion in Great Britain.

It is insanity for the British government to praise such people and give them money. Britain has financed(that means giving money to) several Muslim organizations with the hope that this would lead to less extremism and more community in Great Britain.

Mr Cameron is going to ask some questions before passing out the cash. Again, which of his questiuons do you find objectionable?

Why should the British subsidize any group which as you say: “walks like an Egyptian” but that very movement demands that anyone who leaves Islam be put to death?

Do you have any flowery language to conceal the fascism inherent in Islamic blasphemy laws?

****************

““He also signalled a tougher stance on groups promoting
Islamist extremism.”“
**********************
Fill them full of fear and terror. Damn if I don’t think old w is
‘dressing himself up’ looking like the british PM to infect the
british government. Hope he forgot to take copies of the patriot
act, fisa, and all the other insidious laws passed by our congress
and signed by our presidents to ‘prevent anymore extremist’
events here and now in uk.

When you hear that word ‘prevent’ look around for w, dick or o,
thats just gotta be them or any one of them flapping their lips.

Growing pains everywhere as the world gets closer together, people get more mixed up, and it becomes ever more necessary to face rapid changes and to tolerate more differences by recognizing a common humanity.
  Of course there is no one easy solution to melding cultures, but I would suggest that something fundmental might be discovered by studying in detail how Japan, (as one outstanding exaple) over the course of centuries, and then again over the course of a couple hundred years, managed to absorb large parts of Chinese culture, and then after WWII, large portions of Western (particularly American) culture. 
  Profound changes were wrought in language, in science and literature, and in the development of an “art of assimilation”, so to speak.  Yet in spite of profound changes Japan remains Japanese, although many older people would probably argue that point.
  The problem with “multiculturalism” as a process, whether more or less enforced or voluntary, is rooted in lack of deep study in human psychology aimed primarily at, first of all, developing what questions need to be asked of people who have voluntarily and “successfully” crossed cultures.
  I would guess that progress could be made in “teaching” multiculturalism if we understood how multiculturalism is “learned”.  Also, to some extent the question of what one gains and what one loses in the exchange or melding process is important.
  This is a book—or two or three.  But first we need more organized study and less emotional reaction.  People “understand,” “accept”, or “tolerate” differences if and when they understand the advantags of doing so, and do not feel coopted or denied their own uniqueness, and/or threatened by alternatives, IMO.

@OzarkMichael Every fascist movement going back to the 1930s uses flowery language and attractive points to make its case. You hear the exact same phrases Cameron uses towards Muslims in the US when it comes to immigrants from Latin America, just take a look at the kind of manifestos being put out by paranoid nationalist groups like the Minutemen.

Now, where exactly are any of these freedoms being threatened in England? Actually scratch that, they are under threat, but not from Muslims, England has been building up quite a surveilliance/police state for years now. Are radical Muslims threatening to storm Parliament? Why this sudden fear of a specific immigrant community? And why isn’t anyone more worried about the insane wars being waged by the US and its NATO allies in the Middle East, which fuel more hatred and extremist attitudes? I don’t recall Muslims being such a major topic of fear back in the 1990s (at least to the degree we see today).

Again, you have a government that is looting the country, targeting the working class and poor, destroying the availability of education and in light of the recent, massive student protests, would rather have people running around scared of Muslims, radical imams and other phantoms instead of directing their anger where it belongs, at the worthless suits who are more loyal to banks and corporations than to their own people.

hello. i can agree with a halt to passive tolerance
towards extremism. multiculturalism has to have a
boundary for acceptable behavior, based upon local
norms. foreigner extremists can just stay home if they
will not get along well with others. nobody needs them,
and they quickly wear out their welcome. tolerating
extremism was a mistake.

The issue Cameron tackles is whether Great Britain should use tax money to fund certain Muslim organizations:

“Let’s properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?”

Truthdiggers Robespierre115 and berniem: which of those questions and goals do you especially disagree with? Point out which of those traditions are “fascist”.

A genuinely liberal country “believes in certain values and actively promotes them”, Mr Cameron said.

“Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights, regardless of race, sex or sexuality.”

Robespierre115 and berniem: I will not surrender those values to the likes of you Truthdiggers. The Leftists will, but I wont.

Cameron is another sad clown who would rather distract people from serious, economic problems and abuses (such as the recent hike on education fees) with fascist rhetoric. If the British people have any sense they will start walking like Egyptians.

Whatever the hell he was talking about, it was spoken like a true Aryan! I wonder if he would find Queen Victoria a bit extreme if she were around to extol the all of the virtues of her era!