Correcting the propaganda of Blue Sun and sharonsj

Part 1 of 3

It never ceased to amaze me how propagandists like Blue Sun and sharonsj are still pedlling their long discredited revisionism.

Sharonsj,

Jerusalem is an important city to 3 religions, not just Judaism.  It has been controlled by many civiliations and long after the sol called Israeli Kingdom disappeared. The reason the Muslims want it is because the owned land in Jerusalme and it was stolen from them.

The city of Jerusalem is known in Arabic as Al-Quds or Baitul-Maqdis (”The Noble, Sacred Place”). Jerusalem was the first place that Muslims bowed towards during daily prayer. It was later replaced by Mecca, but I can’t remember how much later. It is an extraordinarily important place in the Islamic religion. it is not just ’some mosque’ located there.

“Remember what Arabs did when they were in control?  They evicted Jews and prevented them from worshiping at holy sites.”

Actually that’s false.  When the Arabs were in control, they were at war with Israel.  Jews from other parts of the world were allowed access to Jerusalem, just not Israeli citizens.

“All the other concessions from Israel only brought more attacks.”

Absolutely false.  If you’re talking about the Gaza withdrawal. Israel fired 7,700 rockets into Gaza s they were leaving.

Israel made no concessions after Oslo, and Camp David was a joke.

In 2005, Hamas declare a unilateral ceasefire until Israel broke it in 2006.

In 2008, Israel broke a 4 month long ceasefire to start a war with Gaza.

If they pulled out of the West Bank, the same thing would happen.”

You mean, if Israel fired 7,700 shells into the West Bank?  Sure.

“’And how come those concerned for “civil rights” never question the Palestinian demand that no Jew may live with them?”

Also false.  Abbas has said that Jewish settlements could remain so long as the settlers became Palestinians citizens.  Of course, that will never happen because the settlers are racist, religious fanatics.

“I thought that was called apartheid.  But apparently Arab apartheid is acceptable.”’

Correcting the propaganda of Blue Sun and sharonsj

Part 3 of 3

The only apartheid in existence is imposed by Israel.

Blue Sun,

The creation of Israel started in the late 1800’s, when Hewish immigrants began arriving from Europe.  As early as 1880, Zionists were openly declaring their plans to remove the Palestinians from the land, in order to create a Jewish state. 

Israel Zangwill, who had visited Palestine in 1897 and came face-to-face with the demographic reality. He stated in 1905 in a speech to a Zionist group in Manchester that:

“Palestine proper has already its inhabitants. The pashalik of Jerusalem is already twice as thickly populated as the United States, having fifty-two souls to the square mile, and not 25% of them Jews ..... [We] must be prepared either to drive out by the sword the [Arab] tribes in possession as our forefathers did or to grapple with the problem of a large alien population, mostly
Mohammedan and accustomed for centuries to despise us.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7- 10, and Righteous Victims, p. 140)

The Palestinians knew what was happening.  The trouble didn’t start in 1948, it began at least 50 years earlier. 
Another point to mention id that Israel did not accept the UN partition. Not only did Israel immediately violate it, but as Ben Gurion declared that Israel would be doing so anyway.

“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.“ Davis Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”[1]

Menachem Begin went so far as to declare the partition illegal:
“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized …. Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”

So you see, the Arabs were most definitely provoked,  Israeli terrors gangs had already been driving Palestinians from their homes and committing massacres, like the one at Deir Yassin.  They were blowing up the Kind David Hotel and conducting drive by shootings and setting off bombs.

Arab armies crossed the border on May 15, 1948, after Israel declared its independence. But this declaration came three and a half months before the date specified in the partition resolution. The U.S. had proposed a three-month truce on the condition that Israel postpone its declaration of independence. The Arab states accepted and Israel rejected, in part because it had worked out a secret deal with Jordan’s King Abdullah, whereby his Arab Legion would invade the Palestinian territory assigned to the Palestinian state and not interfere with the Jewish state. (Since Jordan was closely allied to Britain, the scheme also provided a way for London to maintain its position in the region.) The other Arab states invaded as much to thwart Abdullah’s designs as to defeat Israel.

Correcting the propaganda of Blue Sun and sharonsj

Part 3 of 3

Most of the fighting took place on territory that was to be part of the Palestinian state or the internationalized Jerusalem. Thus, Israel was primarily fighting not for its survival, but to expand its borders at the expense of the Palestinians. For most of the war, the Israelis actually held both a quantitative and qualitative military edge, apart from the fact that the Arab armies were uncoordinated and operating at cross purposes.
Something like 500 villages were razed by the Israelis. 
Of course, if you want to talk about desecrating graves, Israel is desecrating one today and building their museum of tolerance on the very sight.
“In 1950, Jordan officially annexed the entire West Bank including East Jerusalem - an international crime of war even more serious than military occupation.”
On what grounds is annexation more serious than military occupation?  Of course, you do realize the Israel has annexed the Golan right?
For 63 years, Arabs have been denied all access to their homes and in the last 43, they have lived under brutal and genocidal occupation.
The reality is that Zionism was a secular political movement with no religious affiliation.  East Jerusalem meant nothing to the Zionists and the fact is that by 1948, the land in east Jerusalem was largely Arab owned.
East Jerusalem and the West Bank are one and the same. They are both Israeli occupied territory.  No country on the world recognizes either as Israeli territory. 
Israel launched the 1967 war to destroy Nasser and seize the West Bank Jerusalem and the Golan.  There was nothing preventative about the strike and no danger of an invasion.  The 1949 borders were known as the borers of lamentation because they didn’’t include the religious sites ‘like Jerusalem and Rachel’s tomb etc.
1. Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war, later stated: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”
2. General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel’s general staff in 1967, opined that “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war.”
3. Menachem Begin, not yet prime minister but a member of the Israeli cabinet, allowed that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
The the world stood silent when the Arabs occupied the Old City was because the Old City was not included in the partition, which Israel had violated and rejected anyway.
Israel does get measured by a different standard than the rest of the world.  Israel stands in velation of 100 UN Resolutions, a ruling by the ICJ that the Wall is illegal.  Israel is allowed to poses hundreds of nuclear weapons while not only rejecting the NPT, but then demanding that Iran (who has signed the NPT)  be punished for daring to pursue nuclear power.
Israel has refused to declare it’s borders, continues to steal land and refuses to sign an alliance with the US, yet it continues to receive the biggest aid payment in the world and unconditional material, financial, and diplomatic support from the US.
Yes, Israel does get held to a different standard than the rest of the world.  It is pampered, protected and indulged and has become a vile and criminal state because of it.

“This would be the world’s first genocide by increasing the population”

By that measure, the fact that there are more Jews alive today than during WWII means there was no Holocaust.

“In the years before the State of Israel was created (by international law in an overwhelming vote by the U.N.),”

Not so actually:
The plan for partition was passed by a vote of 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions on November 29, 1947. Three months later the plan was dropped at the insistence of the U.S. which favored a bi-national state under U.N. stewardship. It was at this point that Israel unilaterally declared statehood.

By that time, many Palestinians (low estimate 250,000, high estimate 400,000) had been evicted from their homes and villages.

That Palestinians rejected partition should surprise no-one.

In 1947, the Jewish population comprised around 30% of the population of the area planned for the Jewish State. They owned about 10% of the land and the overwhelming majority were recent (and many illegal), immigrants.
Let me ask you. If such was the case in your State, i.e. a minority of immigrants were granted sovereignty over more than half of it, would you roll over and say thank you very much please?

The Jordanian part in this little drama is not well understood. Abdullah had concluded an agreement with Ben Gurion prior to the commencement of hostilities whereby he would occupy the West Bank.

“In 1948, true to his principles, Ben-Gurion stood firm in the face of the heavy pressure exerted on him by his young generals to conquer the whole of the West Bank, although militarily it was possible. Ben-Gurion said no because he and King Abdullah had an agreement, and there was even a draft peace treaty with their initials on it. He preferred legitimacy to territory, even if that territory included the Western Wall and other historical and holy sites. ” http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=603316

I have not seen documentary evidence of the destruction of 27 synagogues by the Jordanian forces (and I hope you can steer me to evidence of this by way of a link) but the creation of 700,000 Palestinian refugees is attributed by Israel supporters to the exigencies of war. If indeed the Jordanians went on a rampage, I suggest it may be similarly attributed.

Jerusalem remains a vexed question but Muslim intransigence appears to me to be retaliatory rather than active. Three times in History Muslims have liberated the Holy City from foreign rule and each time they immediately permitted Jews to return and declared Jewish Holy sites sacrosanct. If they view the current annexation of Jerusalem into an exclusively Jewish State and the expulsion of Muslims that is going on as we debate, I can understand their anger.

“Arabs occupied the Old City and, for 19 years, forbade any Jew from visiting their holiest shrine”

I do not think this is fact. Please provide a link to where you got this information.

“Its exactly as if the world denounced the allied invasion of France as an illegal occupation, while ignoring the fact that, prior to the invasion, France was already an occupied region of the Third Reich.”

Jordan renounced any claim to the West Bank twenty-five years ago. If the occupation of France had occurred or was ongoing twenty-five years after the Germans had left, it would be considered an enemy occupation.

Right on Blue Sun and Dave Thomas !  And Bibi should be listened to, also !  superb leader.

Steve E should try to find groups that identified themselves as “Palestinians” before WWII. They didn’t exist. Palestinians are Muslim Arabs displaced by the creation of Israel that no Arab state would grant citizenship too so they could keep the issue alive. It has worked for over sixty years now. Never giving in to Arab Muslims over the creation and existence of Israel is the only policy.

By Steve E, April 20 at 3:21 pm:  Why doesn’t Israel just massacre all the Palestinians and get it over with. This slow
death genocide is appalling.

“GAZA: The population of the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip has passed 1.4 million people, an increase of nearly 40 percent over the past 10 years, an official Palestinian census said.

The census found that as of 2007 the population of the territory had reached 1,416,543 compared to 1,022,207 in 1997, with an estimated annual growth rate of 3.3 percent.

“Assuming a stable growth during the coming years, the Gaza Strip population will double in 21 years,” said the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, which carried out the census.”
http://www.thearynews.com/english/newsdetail.asp?nid=22070
==============================
Population increase from 1990 to 2008 of approximately 1,937,000 - source: World Bank World Development Indicators, April 2010

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:WBG&dl=en&hl=en&q=west+bank+population
========================

This would be the world’s first genocide by increasing the population.

LOL

Why doesn’t Israel just massacre all the Palestinians and get it over with. This slow
death genocide is appalling.

The BBC starts its ‘history’ of the occupation of East Jerusalem in the middle of the event.  Kind of like starting your description of WW II with the joint American/British/Canadian invasion of France while neglecting to go back and point out that it was triggered by Germany’s prior invasion.

The FULL history of occupation and possession of East Jerusalem is a lot more complicated and goes back another two decades.

In the years before the State of Israel was created (by international law in an overwhelming vote by the U.N.), East Jerusalem was a flourishing Jewish community.  In 1948, when Israel accepted the UN partition vote and declared its independence, five Arab nations immediately, and without provocation, invaded the hours-old sovereign state of Israel (which included East Jerusalem).  In the spring of 1948, the Trans-Jordan Legion captured and occupied East Jerusalem and forced all Jewish residents out. 

Something like 27 Jewish synagogues were razed by the Jordanian troops.  Jewish graveyards were desecrated when the Jordanian troops dug up all of the tombstones and used them to line their urinals.  For two years, Trans-Jordan (now renamed Jordan) occupied East Jerusalem and turned it into an Arab-only city.  In 1950, Jordan officially annexed the entire West Bank including East Jerusalem - an international crime of war even more serious than military occupation.

For 19 years, Jews were denied all access to East Jerusalem, cutting them off from their holiest site, the Western Wall of the second temple, built around 19 BCE, well over 600 years before the advent of Islam or the military occupation of all of the Middle East by marauding bands of Islamic Arabs, spreading their religion and their ‘ownership’ by the sword. 

While I am definitely not a supporter of radical right-wing settlements that are started on the West Bank with the object of securing it for Israel, East Jerusalem is a very different situation. 

In the modern mythology about Palestine and Israel, the BBC takes Israel to task for the ‘crime’ of invading and occupying ‘Arab’ East Jerusalem in 1967 (in a preventive strike provoked by the massing of Arab troops for yet another invasion atttempt).  Yet, the BBC and many of Israel’s knee-jerk detractors fail to mention that it was Jordan that first invaded, occupied, and annexed East Jerusalem, forceably exiling its Jewish residents, populating it only with Palestinian Arabs, and denying the Jews access to their holiest site (just imagine the international outcry if Israel denied Muslims access to the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aqsa Mosque - which were built, BTW, directly on the ruins of the Second Temple).

After the 1967 war and the recapture of East Jerusalem, it took the Israelis only hours to open up the Dome of the Rock to Muslims again and to allow an Islamic organization to administer it. How different from the behavior of Jordan and the Palestinians, who not only denied Jews access to the Wall, but even today riot in the street if the Israelis come within a quarter-mile of the Dome of the Rock.

The world stood silently by when the Arabs occupied the Old City and, for 19 years, forbade any Jew from visiting their holiest shrine, let alone being allowed to return to their homes and neighborhoods occupied by a foreign force from Jordan.

Its exactly as if the world denounced the allied invasion of France as an illegal occupation, while ignoring the fact that, prior to the invasion, France was already an occupied region of the Third Reich.

Why does Israel always get measured by a different standard than the rest of the world?  I can only think of one reason…

Mr Netanyahu said the Israeli government would discuss East Jerusalem as part of what he called “final discussions” - does Netanyahu really mean “Final Solution”?

The piece by piece “Peace” Process promotes murder, theft and lies by the racist,
apartheid state of Israel, which is governed by war criminals.