Rico,

Topic is old, but I couldn’t resist replying.

Your first post says “what goes around…”  Implying what goes around comes around, meaning its Karma, kismet, justice, deserved.  If that’s not what you were implying then I apologize, but I don’t see another way to read it.

To: Arraya and Gerard,

Since I am well versed in the Arabic language,poetry,prose,culture and history,I have truly enjoyed reading your excellent and knowledgeable posts with a great deal of interest. In fact,I have already printed them out and filed them with other related historical knowledges I have on files for possible uses as references in the future. Who knows? 

Thank you Arraya for the privilege.

Thank you Gerard for the privilege.

1225 Christian Era:  Frederick II of Sicily

The first Frederick from Germany, the one with the red beard, had drowned in the tumult of a river before he reached the Holy Land.  Frederick II, four decades later, was, for the Arabs, a Wonder of the Western World, “Al Enberor”—highly reputed before he actually arrived.  Tales told of his accomplishments were hard to believe.

He became King of Jerusalem simply by marrying a certain woman, the Queen, whose husband had died after Saladin drove Crusaders back to Europe.  Frederick had been a ward of the Pope, and was educated by the best papal scholars.  He spoke and wrote Arabic perfectly, and had nothing but contempt for the Church in Rome, and for other barbarians in his homeland.

More or less openly, he admired Muslim civilization.  Even his palace guard were Arabs, and at times of prayer they bowed down toward Mecca and were not beheaded or burned alive.  He had spent most of his youth in Sicily, then the major center of Arab science, and felt little in common with fanatics.  He fancied the songs of troubadors and was favorable toward innovation.
Close links grew between Frederick and the Sultan of Cairo.  Letters flew back and forth between them to discuss the logic of Aristotle, the immortality of the soul, and how the universe began. Both he and the Egyptian ruler, Al Kamil, thought wars based on religion were a waste of time.

As King of Jerusalem he engineered a ten-year treaty but was scorned for such deal-making.  Setting sail from Acre one day at dawn, he was pelted by peasants who hurled pieces of bloody meat toward his head.  At home again in Sicily he faced a plot hatched by the Pope and hos father-in-law to bring about a hasty end to his talents.

At length, dysentary took his body, consigning it to a sarcophagus of red porphyry.  He maintained a unique distinction: Excommunicated twice—once for not fulfilling a vow to go on a Crusade, and once for going on at Crusade when he was not authorized to do so.

A few hundred years of colonization does not help things…

During the middle ages the Muslim world saved the west from itself.

Robert Briffault in the “Making of Humanity”

“It was under the influence of the arabs and Moorish revival of culture and
not in the 15th century, that a real renaissance took place. Spain, not Italy, was
the cradle of the rebirth of Europe. After steadily sinking lower and lower into
barbarism, it had reached the darkest depths of ignorance and degradation
when cities of the Saracenic world, Baghdad, Cairo, Cordova, and Toledo, were
growing centers of civilization and intellectual activity. It was there that the new
life arose which was to grow into new phase of human evolution. From the time
when the influence of their culture made itself felt, began the stirring of new
life.
“It was under their successors at Oxford School (that is, successors to the
Muslims of Spain) that Roger Bacon learned Arabic and Arabic Sciences. Neither
Roger Bacon nor later namesake has any title to be credited with having
introduced the experimental method. Roger Bacon was no more than one of
apostles of Muslim Science and Method to Christian Europe; and he never
wearied of declaring that knowledge of Arabic and Arabic Sciences was for his
contemporaries the only way to true knowledge. Discussion as to who was the
originator of the experimental method….are part of the colossal
misinterpretation of the origins of European civilization. The experimental
method of Arabs was by Bacon’s time widespread and eagerly cultivated
throughout Europe.

“It is highly probable that but for the Arabs, modern European civilization
would never have arisen at all; it is absolutely certain that but for them, it
would not have assumed that character which has enabled it to transcend all
previous phases of evolution.”

Those Barbarians…

Gmonst:

“Yours and other posts seem to suggest its perfectly reasonable to deny Muslims their rights.”

Show me any of my posts where I suggest it’s ok to deny Muslims their rights. Show me a quote where I have ever spoken out in defense of fear and hatred of ALL (or ANY) Muslims. To say that there are some Mulsims in the world who want to see harm come to America is not an expression of fear and hatred, it’s an expression of regretable fact. Just because I think Rauf is being cynical for wanting to locate this mosque near Ground Zero, which is all I have EVER said on the topic, DOES NOT mean I want to deny Muslims their rights. And it is unfair of you to lump me in with those rightwing nutjobs who do.

Refering to Venezuela and progressive disdain for America was off topic and I apologize.

Rico, I feel that you are getting increasingly cruel.  I feel that you are only interested in twisting what I say to suit your purpose, which is not to add anything to the discussion for consideration but to gain some tactical advantage by using scorn and bitterness.  You are fighting, not talking, trying to defeat someone, not considering other points of view.
  All these tactics are characteristic of the rigid “group think” that people with more “liberal” minds are up against every day.  I wish I knew how to talk to that attitude effectively, for I have tried to cope with rigidity and scorn ever since I was born—and to little or no avail.
  People like you are a danger to democracy and free thought, simply (and not so simply) because they cannot see the other guy’s point of view. They see opposition as something that must be destroyed, not understood or tolerated or valued.
  This rigidity is the enemy of freedom and justice for all.  My own personal experiences have been so negative that I regard it as a disease that is well-nigh incurable.  I should not have rebooted or rebutted or rebatted or whatever this is.  My first hunch was, as usual, the best one.
  I want you to understand that, in your sense you have “defeated” me, but, sadly, nothing has changed. Instead, there is a kind of “dead zone” between us—and this is a near-perfect image to express the entire right/left sickness that prevents democracy from correcting its errors.
  When King said “I have seen the Promised Land,” this is probably what he meant—in the figurative sense. His “promise” was, “... I may not get there with you, but ...” and I, too, being 96 years old, “may not get there with you” but I sincerely hope you do get there.  It’s far beyond the left/right squabble, but still, the Left at its best at least understands the goal.

Rico, 

A red herring is something to distract one from the topic at hand.  Me drawing a conclusion from the rhetoric of posts about this topic is nothing of the sort. Discussing Venezuela and progressives hating America is such a distraction.

If you read my post its clear I am not quoting anyone.  I am drawing out the natural conclusion of the path of argument you and others are on.  I wasn’t speaking solely of your posts, although they are part of the rhetoric.  Yours and other posts seem to suggest its perfectly reasonable to deny Muslims their rights.  When violence done by Muslims in other parts of the world is propped up as reasoning for siding with the hysteria, it has a rhetoric that Muslims get what they deserve. Apparently includes slashing a taxi-driver’s face, which is a real incident that shows how dangerous this kind of rhetoric and fear stoking can be.  By speaking out in defense of fear and hate toward all Muslims you are lending your support to the violence that may come out of that. 

Many Muslim countries may well be bastions of intolerance, violence, and medieval mentality.  But there is the old saying two wrongs don’t make a right.  Here in America we do things differently, and those who suggest its appropriate to single out a group and deny them the rights given to anyone else is in my view decidely un-American.  We have seen in 1930’s Germany just how far rhetoric against a religio/ethnic group can go.  If you don’t feel that any act, even violence, is justified, if there is a line with how much discrimination is too much, please feel free to share it.  Just how far do you think is far enough?

The “War on Terror” and the dehumanization of Muslim world works well as a
cover for Israel’s illegal and immoral expansionist plans.  Basically, nobody will call
Israel on their failing 19th century colonialist project since they are fighting the
“savages” that threaten our “freedoms”.  This coupled with the US’s imperial
geopolitical strategy which entails controlling the regions rich energy resources as
well as feeding the military-security complex necessitates “terror”.  OBL was a
godsend to many with preconceived plans ready to be put into motion.

It is evil at it’s core, and, thankfully, on the verge of collapse.

rico

The Lebanese must sense the outside threat which is Israel and need all the allies they can get.

I am amazed by all the essayists here at truthdig who could sum up multiple posts in a paragraph or two.  Same prattle over and over.

Zionist media predominately owned by Jews with an axe to grind with many muslims who want Israels government a fairer democracy (gag) toward muslims.  Military industrialists who want a market for their weapons.  Like I have said before about 9/11, they needed an enemy so they created one, benefiting Israel and their zionist supporters, the Military Industrialists and by extension our own military.

One must think Que Bono? and motive.  Surely the worlds muslims didn’t benefit one Iota.

Americans basic freedoms have suffered as a result of this overseas adventurism which we were warned about by the founders.

It’s hard becoming “enlightened” when you have a genocidal barbaric state like
Israel raising hell and radicalizing the area as well as US imperialism.

http://mondoweiss.net/2010/08/its-not-about-religion.html
Both groups have a relationship with Islam—one sincere, one tenuous.
However, if the former group were represented by a swimming pool, the latter
would amount to a teaspoon. Yet many Americans view the Middle East as being
a mess (not unjustifiably), as being violent (likewise), and that these realities are
a function of what is contained in the Quran. This is where things go awry. The
answer to the question, How much does religion play a role in Middle Eastern
instability is: Basically zero.

snip
Put another way, the West (read the US) will have to keep its guard up
(“maintain military superiority in East and Southwest Asia”) and look sharp as it
demurely looks out for its own enlightened interests and tries to help others.
But despite best intentions, there will be “countering responses” to be dealt
with. What the CIA calls “blowback,” Huntington (quoting historian Bernard
Lewis) chalks up as “an ancient rival against our Judeo-Christian heritage.”
Naturally, power is partial to retaining both viewpoints, depending on the
occasion: Those at Langley provide the unvarnished reality; those in the Ivory
Tower furnish the acquittal.

The “ancient rival” reasoning dovetails neatly with the orientalist assumptions
mentioned above, and general dismissal of the Middle East as hopeless. In turn
it allows the news reportage to make sense, because the same amount of
history is disregarded in both: most of it. This thinking is also quite attractive -
- as is the coverage and commentary—to the foreign policy establishment and
planners, for self-evident reasons.

Current Israeli defense minister Ehud Barak—a former prime minister and the
most highly decorated soldier in the country’s history—stated in a 1998
television interview, “If I were a young Palestinian, it is possible I would join a
terrorist organization.”[6] What Barak revealed was his understanding of the
situation the Palestinians are forced to live in, and the responses such
circumstances can inspire. What is at work is political, military, and financial
power. The byproducts are indignity, anger, and resentment. Because what is
desired is freedom from coercion. It’s not about religion.

Arraya:

Yes Lebanon is coming a long way. Why, just last week it finally gave its 400,000 Palestinian residents almost the same rights as other Lebanese. Why did it take so long?

gerard:

I used “you” as shorthand for “the majority of progressives on this issue” not YOU.

Then you (you) go on to say,

“The allegation in your last response regarding my “desperation to create a vast right wing conspiracy” is so flambouyantt as to be ridiculous… The evidence for right wing agitation against Muslims as an anti-American conspiracy is beyond all doubt—and is becoming increasingly unreasonable.”

Do you see a minor contradiction there!?

And why are many progressives (I won’t use “you” anymore. I don’t want you to think I know what you believe.) all of a sudden champions of “freedom of religion…guaranteed by the Constitution” when it comes to Muslims, but are guaranteed to go apoplectic over some nativity scene in some town square during Christmas (or is it Winter Festival?), or some cross on a hillside in New Mexico?

I am happy for your (your) newfound soft spot for Constitutional freedoms.

“you frequently agitate in favor of anti-Islam yourself.”

Show me some of my quotes where I “agitate” against Islam gerard.

“That you are yourself contributing to the creation of this “vast conspiracy” you seem unwlling to be responsitlble for”

All I can say is, “One thing you do is to pretend you know what is inside someone’s head, and to confront them with it.”

rico: I had shut down my computer, regarding our discussion as pointless, and then rethought and booted up again, for I did not want you to think I had withdrawn from the scene out of cowardice or am reluctanct to respond.  It’s just that your opinions are much more rigid than mine and it is probably impossible to change that, no matter what is said.
  One thing you do is to pretend you know what is inside someone’s head, and to confront them with it.  The allegation in your last response regarding my “desperation to create a vast right wing conspiracy” is so flambouyantt as to be ridiculous.
The evidence for right wing agitation against Muslims as an anti-American conspiracy is beyond all doubt—and is becoming increasingly unreasonable. This agitation is being used by right-wing forces to rouse up a rabble that may be useful in defeating more rational candidates in coming elections.  That presents a real danger to freedom of religion and freedom of political information and speech guaranteed by the Constitution. 
  In addition, many thousands of innocent people are being drawn into a broad net of danger by such unfounded allegations, and if emotions get out of hand, no one can predict who may die as a result.  It is irresponsible and should be defeated by reason and common sense..
  Not only that, but the guarantee of freedom is important to all of us, vital to democracy, and must be maintained if this is to remain America.
  That you are yourself contributing to the creation of this “vast conspiracy” you seem unwlling to be responsitlble for, yet you frequently agitate in favor of anti-Islam yourself. 
  Let’s be fair here. Otherwise, there is truly no reason to talk.

The Ground Zero Synagogue—Lebanon Becoming More American than America
http://www.zeropartypolitics.com/2010/08/ground-zero-synagoguelebanon-
becoming.html

Courtesy of Hassan Nasrallah himself: “We respect Judaism, just as we respect
Christianity. Our only problem is with Israel.”

Did you hear that Newt (and the rest of you idiots)?

An Arab democracy, with a Muslim Prime Minister and a Christian President,
allowed the building of a synagogue, squarely in the center of their “Ground
Zero” in the heart and pride of downtown Beirut which used to be a dumping
ground for Israeli military ordinances.

An Arab democracy allowed this, without so much as a protest being made by
its citizens, or allegations by politicians that this was sacrilege, or hateful
commentary by the media that the Jewish faith was barbaric, or any of the
other stupidity I have seen and heard plastered all over American television,
talk radio, and internet-blogs regarding a certain “Ground Zero Mosque” and
the Islamic faith.

Rico, let’s drop our conversation at this point as it is useless to continue as you are becoming increasingly angry. I’m sorry to have upset you.

gerard:

We’re not talking about “all men are created equal” here. NOBODY on this side of the right-wacko fringe disputes that! Will you PLEASE get over it!

Why oh why do you throw up these barriers to discussion? Well, I know why you do. You desperately need to create a vast rightwing conspiracy of hate and Islamophobia to shoot at. Never mind that it’s a total fabrication.

Creeping Sharia in the United States

In some ways, it speaks of the goodness of America that we have had such difficulty coming to grips with the challenge of radical Islamists. It is our very commitment to religious liberty that makes us uncomfortable with defining our enemies in a way that appears linked with religious belief.

However, America’s commitment to religious liberty has given radical Islamists a potent rhetorical weapon in their pursuit of sharia supremacy. In a deliberately dishonest campaign exploiting our belief in religious liberty, radical Islamists are actively engaged in a public relations campaign to try and browbeat and guilt Americans (and other Western countries) to accept the imposition of sharia in certain communities, no matter how deeply sharia law is in conflict with the protections afforded by the civil law and the democratic values undergirding our constitutional system.

The problem of creeping sharia is most visibly on display in France and in the United Kingdom, where there are Muslim enclaves in which the police have surrendered authority and sharia reigns. However, worrisome cases are starting to emerge in the United States that show sharia is coming here. Andy McCarthy’s writings, including his new book The Grand Jihad, have been invaluable in tracking instances in which the American government and major public institutions have been unwilling to assert the protections of American law and American values over sharia’s religious code. Some examples include:

In June 2009, a New Jersey state judge rejected an allegation that a Muslim man who punished his wife with pain for hours and then raped her repeatedly was guilty of criminal sexual assault, citing his religious beliefs as proof that he did not believe he was acting in a criminal matter. “This court believes that he was operating under his belief that it is, as the husband, his desire to have sex when and whether he wanted to, was something that was consistent with his practices and it was something that was not prohibited.” Thankfully, this ruling was reversed in an appellate court. (Continued)

Creeping Sharia in the United States (Continued)

In May 2008, a disabled student at a public college being assisted by a dog was threatened by Muslim members of the student body, who were reluctant to touch the animal by the prescription of sharia. The school, St. Cloud State, chose not to engage the Muslim community, but simply gave the student credit without actually fulfilling the class hours so as to avoid conflict.

In a similar instance in November 2009, a high school senior in Owatonna, Minn., was suspended in order to protect him from the threat of violence by radical Islamists when he wrote an essay about the special privileges afforded his Somali Muslim counterparts in the school environment.

In order to accommodate sharia’s prohibition of interest payments in financial transactions, the state of Minnesota buys homes from realtors and re-sells them to Muslims at an up-front price. It is simply not the function of government to use tax money to create financial transactions that correspond to a religious code. Moreover, it is a strategy to create a precedent for legal recognition of sharia within U.S. law.

Amazingly, there are strong allegations that the United States now owns the largest provider of sharia financing in the world: AIG.

Last month, police in Dearborn, Mich., which has a large Muslim population, arrested Christian missionaries for handing out copies of the Gospel of St. John on charges of “disturbing the peace.” They were doing so on a public street outside an Arab festival in a way that is completely permissible by law, but, of course, forbidden by sharia’s rules on proselytizing. This is a clear case of freedom of speech and the exercise of religious freedom being sacrificed in deference to sharia’s intolerance against the preaching of religions other than Islam.

Shockingly, sharia honor killings-in which Muslim women are murdered by their husbands, brothers or other male family members for dishonoring their family-are also on the rise in America but do not receive national attention because they are considered “domestic disturbances.” (A recent article in Marie Claire Magazine highlights recent cases and the efforts to bring national attention to this horrifying trend.)

Cases like this will become all the more common as radical Islamists grow more and more aggressive in the United States.

Two recent polls have discovered that as many as one-quarter of all Americans believe that President Obama is actually a Muslim. This is despite the fact that during his campaign he put enormous effort into convincing the voters that he was a Christian.

I remember thinking at the time, “Why is no one on the Left howling about Senator Obama’s claims of faith in God and His Son Jesus Christ?” When George W. Bush, early in his campaign, told reporters that the person who had most profoundly affected his life was Jesus Christ, it almost derailed his campaign! Even during his presidency, I don’t remember White House spokespersons having to reassure reporters that President Bush was really a Christian. The press took his faith at face value and constantly threw it back at him.

And remember how the Left ridiculed him for appointing John Ashcroft, a devout and open evangelical Christian, as his Attorney-General? When it was discovered that Mr. Ashcroft held personal Bible studies in his DOJ office, the Left and the press demanded his resignation. Yet, when Mr. Obama’s deputy press secretary insisted to reporters aboard Air Force One last week that, indeed, the President is “obviously a Christian [because] he prays every day,” every member of the Mainstream Media was as quiet as a church mouse!

As Mister Rogers might have put it, “Can you say ‘double standard’?” But, then, that’s the modus operandi for practitioners of political correctness, social Marxism, and thought-control.

But trust our old friend, Reality, to break up the party. Because of all the controversy over the Ground Zero Mosque (Formerly called “Cordoba House,” then “Park 51 Mosque”, and now we learn it’s not really a mosque, but a community center with a small prayer space!), ‘Happy Ramadan’ dinners at the White House, and the growing suspicion that our President may be a ‘closet’ Muslim, we’ve recently heard a lot of folks give Islam some wonderful reviews. Unfortunately, the truth about Islam doesn’t quite measure up to the good press that Islam has been getting lately.

Unbelievable. You’re not going to guess what our tax dollars are subsidizing. Actually, in this ObamaNation, maybe you will guess it. It turns out that you and I are funding the State Department to purchase and distribute copies of Feisal Abdul Rauf’s book, What’s Right With Islam: A New Vision for Muslims and the West.
Rauf is the imam behind the Ground Zero mosque and is the same imam who won’t condemn Hamas as a terrorist organization; the same imam who said on “60 Minutes” that America was an “accessory” to September 11; and, as we reported at Human Events, the same imam who told a college audience overseas that the United States is worse than al Qaeda.
Yep, that dude. And not only has the State Department anointed him as our ad hoc ambassador to the Muslim world, but now they are acting as his personal Barnes & Noble to boot. Good grief! Buried in a recent New York Times article on Imam Rauf’s global hopscotch, the paper casually referenced that our government buys his tome in an effort “to lecture about tolerance” and pursue “interfaith dialogue” with Islamic nations.
Only in the left’s strange world does it make sense to support Imam Rauf as a goodwill spokesman for the United States while he’s busy trashing the United States. But that aside, did the bureaucrats at the State Department ever take the time to read Rauf’s What’s Right with Islam? If so, they’ll have to justify why they’re promoting a book that faults America for stirring up conflict with Muslims, brags that America is “Sharia compliant,” and makes excuses for suicide bombings.

Do the Liberal (Progressives) sheep of America know what “The Cordoba Initiative is? Of course they don’t.

A Masque Next To Ground Zero by Hal Lindsey

The plan is to build a 13-story Muslim mosque and cultural center literally only a few hundred feet from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan. The leader of the project, Imam Abdul Rauf, says that the mosque is intended as a gesture to build “bridges between faiths.” Another proponent claims that the mosque, which will occupy the site of a 152-year old building that suffered damage in the 9/11 attack, is really a “celebration of America’s religious tolerance.” Why would a religion founded on fealty to one law, one leader, and one god—a religion whose modern defining characteristic is its intolerance of all other faiths and traditions—actually “celebrate” America’s religious diversity. That’s the very thing Islam HATES about us. How could a religion that reduces women and girls to mere chattel and considers all non-Muslims to be second-class citizens conceivably “celebrate” a non-Muslim society that believes all humans are created equal in God’s sight? It’s laughable. Yet our leaders and the media-types have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker. Are they that stupid or have they been intimidated into acquiescence? New York City already has more than 100 mosques. We’ve already proven that we really are an open, tolerant society. To say with a straight face that this is Islam’s celebration of America’s religious tolerance would be like the Southern Baptists building a church in Amsterdam’s infamous Red Light District to “celebrate” Holland’s sexual promiscuity. It doesn’t make sense because it doesn’t make sense.
I’ll tell you why the Muslims insist on putting a 13-story mega-mosque (which, by the way, will eerily resemble a World Trade Center tower) within earshot of Ground Zero. It will be nothing less than a traditional act of Islamic triumphalism. It’s a symbol of conquest. Although the Muslims have changed the name of the proposed structure to “Park 51 Mosque,” the campaign to build it is still called “The Cordoba Initiative.” For all of you I’m going to share with you a short history lesson about the symbolism of “Cordoba” in the Islamic mind. And trust me, the Muslims are big on symbolism.
The world should know that the ‘Cordoba Initiative,’ the New York City based organization desiring to construct a massive Islamic house of prayer at ‘Ground Zero,’ has posted on its website, a peculiar and disingenuous statement indicating the desire to bring back the atmosphere of, “interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.”
I point this out because contemporary scholarship has clearly demonstrated that there was no ‘harmony’ or ‘prosperity’ for non-Muslims in Islamic Spain. The Cordoba Initiative is attempting to revisit some sort of mythical “tolerance and respect” which never existed.
What is irrefutable is that living under Islam, the non-Muslim population was always mandated to submit to Islam, accept discriminatory laws, and make payment of a mandatory Quranic tax imposed upon every non-Muslim. For a period of about 800 years, most of Spain was ruled by Muslims and this area was known as ‘Al-Andalus.’ Islamic rule ended in 1492, when the city of Granada, the last Muslim kingdom in Western Europe, capitulated to the Spanish Catholics. (Continued)

A Masque Next To Ground Zero by Hal Lindsey (Continued)

The Cordoba Initiative is an organization whose very name makes reference to what was, 1,000 years ago, one of the world’s most advanced cities, Cordoba, Al-Andalus (Spain). This was a city that was politically and religiously dominated by Islam, and a city that was conquered by jihad (holy war). Today, there are Islamic groups such as Al-Qaeda that have a dream of seeing a pan-Islamic world that would extend from old Al-Andalus (Spain). This is based upon Islam’s principle of dar-al-Islam, which means a world where Islamic sovereignty prevails over the citizenry. Dar-al-Islam is attained through jihad and the media is replete with Al- Qaeda’s calls for jihad and their claims to Al-Andalus and its major cities such as Cordoba.

Clearly, Islamic Cordoba was once a city where a number of intellectual Muslims such as Averroes (Ibn-Rushd), influenced European thought with Arab philosophy related to the scientific teachings of Aristotle. In mathematics, the Arabs built upon the foundations of Greek mathematicians. At one point there were dozens of free schools in Cordoba for the education of poor Arabs and at some point there existed some 600 mosques. However, even with all of this scholastic and societal grandeur, the route to get to such a point of magnificence was through violent warfare.

Not only were successive battles for Spanish cities bloody, but desiring more than Spain—the Arabs declared a jihad against France, then crossed the Pyrenees, and in successive swarms spread over the southern regions of the French countryside, slaughtering the Christians by thousands, and burning their churches to the ground before being halted.
We must remember that a practice associated with conquering Islamic armies was the construction of a mosque at the location where their triumphant battle was won. Thus, this modern Islamic organization is seeking to build a mosque at the site of 9/11 attack—an attack which was carried out by 19 Muslim hijackers who considered their mission holy war.

Insomuch, it is this man’s opinion that a Muslim house of prayer that would be cemented in the ashes of catastrophe at the foot of New York’s lost Twin Towers would be a symbolic victory flag for Muslims who seek the destruction of America. Further, it is my honest opinion that no matter how the construction of a mosque at ‘Ground Zero’ may be perceived by well-meaning Americans, the construction of a mosque on the spot where Al-Qaeda brought jihad to the United States will unquestionably represent victory to the worldwide forces of Radical Islam.
What bothers me, though, is the double standard. Diners at a senior citizens center in Georgia can’t publicly say grace over a federally-subsidized meal. The Left says that amounts to a government endorsement of religion. But the President can make a pronouncement defining Islamic theology at a Ramadan dinner in the White House, and that ISN’T a government endorsement of religion?

scottpott,

I believe its alot more than that.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

136,000 Americans murdered by other Americans in America this decade alone.
20-30 non -military Americans killed by Muslims worldwide during the same
period. Americans foolishly believe “Al-Qaeda ‘’ is a major threat . Why aren*t we
being attacked? Because there is no “Al-Qaeda’’ unless you think a few Web
sites constitutes a terror threat .Or you believe that 20-30 Americans killed by
Muslims is more horrific than 136,000 killed by other Americans .

“I hold these truths to be self-evident ...”

Rico, the answer is obvious to most Americans.

gerard,

A very valid point.

Due process has been denied those held in Guantanamo and serves an example to the rest of the world of the American Governments ongoing hypocrisy by morphing the U.S. Constitutions preamble that all men are created equal…..except those we claim as terrorists.

Why are you so bent on defending these guys gerard?

“Let’s be very clear. These are not the acts of a community. The vast majority of people from this community, like the vast majority of all Canadians, want absolutely nothing to do with this and expect the government to vigorously pursue, and expect our police and security forces to vigorously pursue anybody who dabbles in criminal or worse terrorist activity,” Harper said.

“This is important that our police and security forces, that they work together, work with our partners, and work with our fellow Canadians.

“Often, (it’s) members of these communities who help provide information to pursue these kinds of cases.” PM Harper today.

Please note the word “ALLEGED” in the Ottowa comment.

Please note the unjust, never-proven, never even ALLEGED crimes of a couple hundred Moslem men still in Guantanamo, some of whom have been tortured, most of whom have been denied legal aid for years, or access to family, some of whom have committed suicide due to mental breakdown under degradation, solitary confinement etc. etc.

Please note the political usefulness and the circularity of the ALLEGATIONS that spread terror of Muslim terrorists.

When hysteria rules, allegation is enough to get even you yourself killed.

US law says “innocent until PROVEN guilty”—and in a court of law, convicted by a jury of peers.  Hey wait a minute!  What’s going on here? (Sorry for the CAPS, but I couldn’t help myself this time.)

Gmonst:

“That it is perfectly acceptable to cause whatever harm one wishes to Muslims in America.”

Exactly who says that? Can you post any quotes? Or is that a “red herring” to distract from the real issue, which is the cynicism with which a religion renowned like no other for its intolerance, is asking us for tolerance, by asking us to place a symbol of their religion hard by a place that was destroyed by a group of wackos acting in that religion’s name.

Nowhere this side of a few loonies can you connect an objection to the location of this mosque with a desire to cause “whatever harm” to Muslims or prevent them from practicing their religion.

Here in Canada it is not anti-Muslim rhetoric causing consternation its the facts,like yesterday, when the RCMP and Ottawa police arrested four Muslims in connection with an alleged ” homegrown terrorist plot.” All face terrorist related charges. Targets were in Canada according to the RCMP, who as usual, did us great service in this area.

What a bunch of red-herrings in the comments here.  It seems that some of you are advocating, supporting, and justifying hate and violence against Muslims based on cultural practices in other parts of the world, and the fact that a very small group of extremists carry out terrorist attacks. 

If that’s not working, just say that “progressives” (whatever that means exactly) just want the United States to fail.  Another red herring that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.  But hey its a nice try lots of distracting bait in that one.

None of that has any relevance to American politicians, media personalities, and anti-Muslim activists stoking up fear and hate against a group here in the United States.  Here, where no Muslims stone people to death, here where Sharia law is not the law, here where we have as religious freedom as one of our highest principles.

So just stop all the distraction and rhetoric of justification and come out with what you really mean. That it is perfectly acceptable to cause whatever harm one wishes to Muslims in America.

Dr Judy:

I’m no psychologist, but my cheap theory is that the present-day progressive left differs from the pre-sixties left in one crucial way: The one true measure of a present-day progressive’s cred is the degree to which he wants to see the “American experiment”, as it has been understood for two hundred years, to FAIL.

All other considerations are secondary: Muslim women being stoned?- so what, Muslims want to see the Great Satan fail and that’s the key. Hugo Chavez bankrupting Venezuela?- so what, he wants the US to fail. Arabs treating Palestinians like second class trash?- so what, Palestinians are the tip of the spear in the fight to see Israel, and it’s sole supporter in the world, the US, fail. Obama-care and “Government Motors”?- so what, it’s anti-capitalist and that’s the key.

Teddy Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson and FDR were Progressives. Their respect for America and its basic institutions was unquestioned by all but the most rabid fascists. They understood that there were real enemies out there who wanted us dead. So they in no way can be likened to today’s swarm.

Today’s progressive measures his bona fides by the shrillness of his criticism of Americanism, by the excuses he makes for our enemies, by his disdain for the great unwashed “middle class”.

All you need to do is read the commentary here on truthdig. Just marvel at the way posters try to out-do each other in expressing their hatred of America’s basic institutions and those who believe in them. You’ll find no restraint, only hyperbole (“Bush killed MILLIONS of Muslim children!”), unchallenged lunacy (“Bush was responsible for 9/11! The Corp of Engineers blew the dikes in New Orleans during Katrina! The BP spill was a Big Oil plot!”), economic theories that bear zero relation to the way the real world works, and a sense of economic justice that is expressed without irony in the very emotions of greed and envy they profess to despise (“We HATE rich people for having all that horrible money! We want the money. Which we hate. But we want it. And we don’t want them to have it.”)

It’s easy to be a progressive- just hate enough and blame those who disagree with you for hating too much.

I quite agree that the world-spread intolerance is a
much worse thing than anything in the world, but the
thing is that the very same people who call for greater
empathy and tolerance (almost every single European
politician) actually do the opposite — nationalistic
movement in Europe are definitely on the rise (proof — 
http://bit.ly/aaVMQP)

It is glaringly obvious that this very organized and co-ordinated campaign of deliberately stirring hate, fear and hysteria against Muslims is nothing but a campaign of distraction/justificatio from/of, among other things, the following:

1) The theft of the country’s wealth by Wall St.and the big banks.
2) The sorry state of the Gulf of Mexico after the disasterous oil leak. There is oil everywhere: under the water, in the marches and in the beaches.
3)The situation in Iraq and afghanistan and very possible attacks on Iran and Pakistan
4) And of course the economy and high unemployment.
5) Obama has served his purpose for the super-rich elite and it is time to replace him and the Democrats by the Republicans.

JudyWeismongerPhD,

Actually, there is more hasbara and hate speech comming out daily from the Israeli-zionist-Jew camp as your post exemplifies.

JudyWeismongerPhD,

We are not at war with Muslims. As much as you may hate them, please do no drag me, or the rest of the country, down to your level.

From Ron Paul:

In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.

They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars. A select quote from soldiers from in Afghanistan and Iraq expressing concern over the mosque is pure propaganda and an affront to their bravery and sacrifice.

The claim is that we are in the Middle East to protect our liberties is misleading. To continue this charade, millions of Muslims are indicted and we are obligated to rescue them from their religious and political leaders. And, we’re supposed to believe that abusing our liberties here at home and pursuing unconstitutional wars overseas will solve our problems.

The nineteen suicide bombers didn’t come from Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iran. Fifteen came from our ally Saudi Arabia, a country that harbors strong American resentment, yet we invade and occupy Iraq where no al Qaeda existed prior to 9/11.

This sentiment seems to confirm that Islam itself is to be made the issue, and radical religious Islamic views were the only reasons for 9/11. If it became known that 9/11 resulted in part from a desire to retaliate against what many Muslims saw as American aggression and occupation, the need to demonize Islam would be difficult if not impossible.

There is no doubt that a small portion of radical, angry Islamists do want to kill us but the question remains, what exactly motivates this hatred?

If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.

The justification to ban the mosque is no more rational than banning a soccer field in the same place because all the suicide bombers loved to play soccer.

This is all about hate and Islamaphobia.

http://www.campaignforliberty.com/article.php?view=1077

So, you see, Miss Judy, it is not just “the left” that is defending the rights of individual Muslims, it is Libertarians, as well. It is wrong to condemn an entire group of people, for the actions of a few, no matter how you try to justify it. Take all of that hate, anger and resentment that you are harboring, and go fry an egg.

Call me Roy tells us what Phillis Chesler who APPEARED ON FOX NEWS(FIXED NEWS)what she said/wrote about stoning practice against women in some Islamic countries. As I read what Phyllis Chesler claimed,I shock my head in disbelief:

Phyllis Chesler and anyone else who advocates what she claims sound ridiculous to me for trying to GLUE,yes GLUE,the horrible stoning practices to Islam. That is obviously their ultimate goal. It stems from their deep deep hatred of Islam and Muslims. I have got news for them:

Stoning of women has been practiced through the ages,among ignorant people and in isolated places since,at least,of Christ’s time.

As the Holy Bible tells us,it was Jesus Christ, through his superb wisdom,who challenged
the crowd that was about to stone a prostitute to death,to do so if anyone of them was without a sin. In Jesus words,the following words of wisdom refute Phillis Chesler’s attempt to GLUE the ancient stoning practices to Islam:

“WHO HE,AMONG YOU,IS WITHOUT SIN,LET HIM CAST THE FIRST STONE.”

No one did.

Some people’s hatred of Islam and Muslims is going to consume them so badly,since their hatred and bigotry have no bounds,whatsoever,as it seems so clearly to me.

PITY!!

WHAT WON’T BE EXPOSED IN TRUTHDIG OR THE LEFT WING MARXIST SMEAR MEDIA IS THIS FACT:

The “slasher” who stabbed the Moslem cab driver…works for and is employed by the Moslem developers (Park51) who are insisting on building a Ground Zero Mosque on the ashes of dead Americans…Moslems murdered.

Now do you smell a rat? I certainly do.

Isn’t it weird when people call themselves “journalists” but then do not engage in journalism, but propaganda smears and never seem able to get the story right.

How about anti American, and insensitive rhetoric by Moslems…causing harm and consternation? Moslems have blantently told the American people they could give a flying “shite” about the ashes of 9-11 victimes and their surviving families.

When and how did Moslems get a free ride here? Did you forget 9-11? Did you forget that Moslems murdered, raped, stole, and pillaged their way across 1/3rd of the Earth beginning in 700 AD.

Did you forget that Moslems now control 1/3rd of the Earth and they aren’t through yet?

Did you forget that the Crusades began “AFTER” Moslems had destroyed pagan, Jewish and Christian villages, burned churches, synogogues, and temples and built mosques on top of them, and enslaved whole populations in the name of Allah?

Did you forget that the Koran is hate speech, and an instruction book for war…and how to not just control women and use them like a barn yard animal, but how to control entire countries for Allah?

What is it about Islam, which means total “submission” that you don’t understand?

What is it about the Marxist Democrat Left that is so suicidal and insane, that it demands that an entire culture and civilization destroy itself in the name of something foreign and murderous such as Islam?

Anyone have any good psychology on the suicidal Left they would like to share? Or is such suicidal behavior by the Left genetic, sort of like “lemmings” who run over cliffs when there gets to be too many of them?

Roy,

You are so off the mark that your posts are not worth the effort it would take to respond to them.

Get a bumper sticker that says: “Spread The Hate,” and you’ll be one happy camper.

Only Cowards Stone People to Death: An Islamic Religious Ritual
August 19, 2010 - by Phyllis Chesler
(Continued)

This tells us something else that is important. The need for a mob is, in a sense, proof that the individuals who compose it are all being held hostage to the will of the psychopathic criminals who rule them. Oppose them, and you yourself might be stoned to death. Hostage-mobs also share the “guilt,” or rather, their leaders’ point of view. The leaders cannot be held accountable for their actions either — everyone did it.
In addition, sharing a so-called Muslim sinner’s blood, especially female blood, is yet another way to forge a blood-brotherhood that is based on male supremacism.
Stoning is practiced in contemporary Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, and Nigeria. In 2006, a poll conducted in “moderate” Indonesia found that 50% of Muslims there supported stoning in cases of adultery, however it is defined. Adultery might include: a married woman who is raped by a stranger, or a woman promised in marriage to one man but who chooses another. This is precisely what happened in the recent case in Afghanistan.
The Grand Torturer Khomeini brought stoning back to Iran. Uneducated mullahs in the provinces rather liked it. They also liked drugs, drug trafficking, forcing girls into prostitution and then jailing or hanging them for it; temporary “marriages”; forced veiling, etc. Although stoning is now under legal review in Iran, to date, eight men and three women await stoning execution.
In Iran, one woman, accused of adultery, was sentenced to be lashed 99 times — and then sentenced to be stoned to death. Due to an international campaign and due to the hard work of Iranian dissidents, Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani’s sentence was delayed. But she was lashed 99 times and her teenage son was forced to witness her helplessness, humiliation, and torture — and, in a sense, forced to both share these emotions, second-hand with his mother. Her son’s presence before her nakedness was meant to shame them both and challenged him to become a very hard man as a way of avoiding an eventual nervous breakdown.
I am not sure whether there is any connection, but think about this. When Muslims go on pilgrimage to Mecca, part of their three day ritual includes stoning “The Devil.” Large groups literally throw stones at giant concrete pillars. This suggests that stoning is a Muslim religious ritual, not a tribal custom. Therefore, stoning a living human being is not only an act of human sacrifice — it is a classic religious ritual meant to glorify the stoners’ God.
A little like jihad if you ask me.

Only Cowards Stone People to Death: An Islamic Religious Ritual
August 19, 2010 - by Phyllis Chesler

Yesterday, I appeared on Fox News’ The Strategy Room to discuss a recent stoning in Afghanistan and the issue of stoning in general. Kimberly Guilfoyle interviewed me both skillfully and graciously. The subject is a very distressing and somewhat mysterious one for most westerners.
What does it mean when a mob of men, numbering anywhere from 50 to 200, stone a female child to death — as happened in October of 2008 in Somalia? That poor soul was not only a 13-year-old child, she had also just been raped. Indeed, that was her sole “crime” and the reason for her torture-execution. She was forced into a hole and buried nearly up to her neck. She took a long time to die and kept crying out for her life. In addition to the 50 active stoners, 1000 more men cheered them on.
What does this tell us?
First, that barbarians are mainly cowards who do not view themselves as responsible for their actions. Everyone is the murderer and therefore, no one is the murderer. The group both absorbs and atones for any possible guilt or hesitation that even one individual might have felt. However, as we shall see, there is also another way of looking at this.
For a culture presumably so concerned with “honor,” so consumed with concepts of responsibility towards the family, clan, or “ummah” (Muslim people), those who stone a living being to death utterly shrink from any individual responsibility for carrying out their bloody deeds. Entire families become conspirators in an honor killing; village and religious councils collaborate to issue a death sentence; Muslim men sexually harass women in the streets (of Egypt) — and in large mosque-inflamed mobs (in Algeria).
In terms of stoning, which is primarily a contemporary Muslim-only custom, not only do cowardly men hide behind each other, clearly they lack the ability to act as individuals. That power is reserved for one man, one leader, one ruling cabal only. In Afghanistan, the Taliban hooligans threw the first stones.
(Continued)

Here’s the latest Reuters headline- “Wounded NY cabbie says religion had role in attack.”

Alomost nine years ago the headline read- “Thousands of wounded New Yorkers say religion had role in attack.”

What goes around…