YoungGringos, November 5 at 5:31 pm

Thank you for the re-affirmation of what I believe is going on there. This movement is, as you say, leaderless, or rather everyone is free to lead themselves.

As a veteran of many demonstrations that turned violent due to police action I simply must restate my opinion that violence on the part of the establishment is to be expected, but violence on the part of the participants is unacceptable and extremely counterproductive.

Just the way certain posters here continue to try and force the belief in OO and OWS violence where little to none exists should make one aware of just how much violence on our part plays into the hands of those in power.

I am simply waiting for my new hip to heal sufficiently so that I can walk sans cane. Going into Oakland to participate while using a cane is impractical, and possibly, quite dangerous, dontcha think? “Look, that old guy has a club, get him!”

heterochromatic,

I’ve certainly not denied instances of excess on the side of law enforcement. I believe there has been. You’ve misunderstood my point.

Do you personally believe 99% of Americans fail to grasp that if we throw M80s and urine at fireman and policemen they will, in turn, change into riot gear and use force to bring an end to that situation? Do you believe for one second that most on TruthDig fail to grasp the same? Or the simple notion that if these things come from the same groups “protesting” the same causes that those groups will be correctly labeled a serious danger by law enforcement AND the 99%?

Point being: As the violence grows so too does the love on these threads. Every excuse and every suggestion has been made to aid and escalate the situation.

The heroes of Wisconsin are now the most vilified from coast to coast. Even more vilified than the 1% - which was the reason I first supported OWS. However, looking back at the many comments on TD of the past year we see that nearly all who supported Fire and Police labor unions (as I did myself) are, today, the same individuals who so eagerly ignore the rocks, cement, explosives, glass bottles, pots and pans and half a dozen personal assaults on those we held in such high esteem only months ago. These Americans, excuse me, villains have been supplanted for a different cause.

Mobs. Mobs lift people up to tear them down. Thugs and vandals who assault others, break things, start fires, fight amongst themselves and break and enter abandoned buildings are the heroes today. These idiot children bring national attention. They are loved. Just as police and firemen had been a very short time ago. Ironic, yes?

I support the message. It’s now time to see the plan.

Ardee-
Big questions.  I can only speak for Occupy Oakland- and actually I can’t even speak for them.  I can only give my perspective.  In my view violence against property is frowned upon by the majority, but I think all of us recognize the struggle we are in and that at any time a variety of tactics may be necessary. That doesn’t mean violence- that means direct action- which some consider violence.

Regarding anarchists / black bloc- remember that many of these camps were started by anarchists.  Many of the established processes are inspired by them.  They had the vision and took the risk. After they opened the door the rest of us jumped through.

What you have in the OWS movement is democracy.  True democracy.  We don’t black list- we don’t silence.  We have marxists.  We have anarchists.  We have atheists.  We have christians.  We have homeless.  We have rich.  We have people from every walk of life and every voice is equal.
That is both our greatest strength and our greatest challenge. It would be so much easier to purge dissenting voices, but we are dedicated to unity.

Oakland does not speak for the movement.  Every occupy encampment is autonomous. OO is a special case.  Oakland has a history of police corruption and violence.  That being said I think what happened Wed night was unfortunate.  I will not cry for BofA, Chase, or Wells Fargo, but our local businesses must know we are with them.  The people must know we fight for them, not against them.  They must know we have purpose, structure and discipline.

This movement is going through growing pains.  The Tea Party had Glenn Beck, Fox News, FreedomWorks and the bottomless pockets of the Koch brothers to organize them, feed them talking points and push the message.
We have each other. 
If you really want to know what’s up I suggest you find your local Occupy movement and participate.
Democracy.  It’s a glorious thing.

IMax, perhaps it would be better if you simply linked
to something showing that a cop suffered SERIOUS injury
that would approach the extent of the injury suffering
by Olsen or the other vet.

ot ain’t really a contest, but since you’re as intent
on denying any police abuse as other folk are intent on
denying abuse from the protesters, go right ahead and
show the maimed police officers.

The video on this page was released roughly 10 days ago. It’s been up on TruthDig for a day.

I’ve been waiting for one honest individual, other than myself, to point out what is so clearly on display in this video document.

Is there not one other honest person willing to point it out?

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/truthdigger_of_the_week_scott_olsen_20111104/

gerard,

Thank you for sharing your update on the latest Vet injured.

I wonder if you have any interest in writing a few words and giving us all a quick update on each of the nearly 40 union wage police officers (many of them Vets themselves) who have been injured by rock and explosive throwing protesters amongst the Occupy crowds?

YoungGringos, November 5 at 3:14 am

Your truths shine where other lies simply fester. Longshoreman have salary guarantees that ensures a paycheck each week.

As you seem to be a participate in this movement can you speak to the violence committed by some, lied about by others, and especially how said violence is rejected by the great majority of protestors? Thanks.

The Port of Oakland has, as a client who rents space therein, our old friends Goldman Sachs. Thus the Port becomes a legitimate target for political action.

Nefesh-
Longshoremen didn’t lose out on any pay. 
The ILWU wanted us there. 
The longshoremen don’t have the right to strike. 
We shut the port down and effectively helped them strike. 
Again- they were payed.

gerard——can’t find the Guardian article, please
post link.

did find Reuters. all reuters is reporting is that
this is from two nights back and

“Iraq Veterans Against the War said Sabeghi was
detained during disturbances that erupted late on
Wednesday in downtown Oakland and was charged with
resisting arrest and remaining present at the place
of a riot.”

business partner confirms arrest, injuries and
hospitalization after delay.

nothing about him being unarmed or not fighting the
cops….

http://in.reuters.com/article/2011/11/05/idINIndia-
60341820111105
more info !!!

I just read in the London Guardian tonight (Nov. 4) that police put another unarmed veteran protester in Oakland in the hospital with a broken and bleeding spleen.  This kind of over-kill on the part of police is a symptom of ongoing brutality that minorities have been complaining about for years, yet nothing is done to curb it.
  It certainly bears out what has been apparent in inner cities and contentious areas - a sign of a mismanaged and unjust society.  Looks like it’s up to the 99% of us to learn to work nonviolently to demilitarize police forces as well as the over-militant Pentagon, and see that peace has a chance to survive the terrorization of civil democracy.

Too bad hard-working longshoremen in Oakland had to
lose out on their paychecks while these asshat
“protesters” prevented them from getting to their jobs.
So much for workers’ rights.

Thanks Ardee-

I came to the same conclusion even as I was hitting the “submit” button.

Ignorance can be cured.  Malice must be eradicated. 

OCCUPY

ardee-full-of-hate,

You would do well to ignore my posts. You have displayed little ability to argue against adults. Particularly those grown-ups with whom you disagree with most.

I’ve gone over some of your posts. Your comments over the past two years are rife with name-calling and petulant tantrums. Your usefulness here is obviously limited.

I used your own words against you on another recent thread…LOL That shut you up quickly! LMAO.

-

Freedom of speech for all - who agree with you.

YoungGringos, November 4 at 12:05 am

I have been as vocal as anyone here at the railings and propagandized lies spewed by these three; IMax,OM and heterobullshiter. Is it not suspicious that, OM aside, the other two appear suddenly and drone endless propaganda against the populist uprising?

As it was when GRYM and Rico whatever haunted these threads responses to their obvious lies and distortions not only energizes and amuses them, it makes conversation among the rest of us more difficult.

I believe that the best course to take is the one that worked earlier and , I am certain, resulted in the two aforementioned right wing liars disappearance, namely; ignoring them , do not give them anything to feed their silly egos and their paychecks either.

Turbo scrolling is now my course of action , ignoring them as one would a screaming child. Believe me, this will work as it has in the past.

Just a suggestion….

YoungGringos

I too was not present in Oakland while these protests were taking place.

According to the Oakland police department rubber bullets were not used. According to dozens of witnesses flash bang utilities were also not used. The loud bangs you heard, according to witnesses, reporters, and Oakland police were M80 explosives being thrown at law enforcement officers.

According to several dozen witnesses protesters were throwing rocks, glass bottles, pots and pans, kitchen utensils, paint, urine and fire-extinguishers (after they were emptied toward the police).

You may have seen things differently, however, that does not disqualify the observations of dozens of others.

heterochromatic-
were you there?  I was.
No one pelted the cops until the THIRD time we were gassed. 
And water bottles vs. rubber bullets, bean bags, flash-bangs and tear gas?  I’m sure the cops were feeling threatened. 

Anyway, continue with the disinformation.

no gerard, the violence in Oakland OWS is a little more than occasional and it is
either effectively stopped from within OWS or they have to be said to own it.

getting kicked out from in front off City Hall doesn’t excuse it and pelting the cops
with rocks and bottles BEFORE Olsen got his skull cracked was also not
excusable…

So sad to see the gleefulness many people here show, just licking their lips over the violence when it occasionally crops up at Occupiers’ protests.  No thought of why, of who, exactly, started it, and of the fact that the vast majority of protesters had nothing to do with it, in fact tried to prevent it etc. etc.
  Not to mention picking up on any other negatives they can find to bring forward. They seem to delight in endlessly repeating distortions which they obviously hope will undercut attempts to bring peaceful protest into practice as a method of social change less brutal than mob hysteria and police brutality.

IMAX,

Whom do you speak for ...and work for?

The Occupy Movement is the only hope for saving America and the middle class, if it’s not too late.

====As if one can drop a bomb (in this case create a shut-down) and not hurt
“innocent civilians.”=====

ya actually you can do that and it has been done.  more than once!

MeHere,

I have supported OWS on the issue of income inequality. A great many people are talking about the issue after being largely ignored for decades.

What has manifest of late is not the way, however. These acts of criminality, infighting, urinating and defecating in public, vandalism, assaulting police officers, disrupting the free movement of thousands of people, igniting and throwing explosives, breaking the windows of area small and large businesses is not the way to effect long lasting change. And if it did what types of leaders would it throw up?

The Tea Movement protested in much greater numbers (500,000), displayed none of the violence or need for arrests, then returned home and got busy. These people involved themselves in elections and issues across the country. Even today, three years later, this minority group effects legislation in every State and in Washington (ask Reed and Boehner).

I believe we now need to stop these children who are causing widespread trouble and get to doing the real work in Statehouses.

Agree or not with the Tea Movement, we have a truly effective model we here can employ to effect real change. Ignoring or applauding the widespread violence and destruction - and it is widespread - is not the way. If anarchy is the goal of OWS 99% of Americans will reject it.

-

I’m also deeply saddened to see so many here, who appeared to hold firefighters and policemen up as heroes in Wisconsin only months ago, now so quick to demonize these same people today.

According to dozens of protesters Oakland police defended their right to protest. That ended after a few petulant children, along with a handful of adults, began breaking things and assaulting the police. That clear violence, at least on the part of a few, was by design. It’s wrong to defend, minimize, or excuse it.

club those union workers like they’s baby seals…...the police put one of ours in
the hospital, we put a couple of ours in the morgue!!!!!

great article here, good that it’s published without a name.

what closing the port does to help Olsen is just so obvious that it needn’t even be
mentioned.

It’s so depressing to see how much confusion there is when it comes to
understanding the nature of a protest like this. There are those out there saying
that the OWS “has to offer solutions,” “must come up with a platform,”
“announce who the leaders are” and so on -and “very soon,” they add. What are
these folks talking about? This is a very new movement operating with extreme
limitations.  They are not supported by the mass media and the money of the
elite like the ruling parties are.  Moreover, it is not the same as with protests in
the past, such as those against wars and for civil rights, which did not target
the core of power in the US.

If people don’t want to support an evolving movement with the unavoidable
moments of disorganization, transformation, and isolated cases of unwanted
behavior, they can always stay with the “neatly organized and lawful” mess of
traditional politics. 

The OWS protesters may or may not be able to move things forward in this
country, but it is fair to say that _they don’t owe us_ anything.  It is we who owe
them a great deal of support if we feel they’re struggling for the right cause.

Protesters set fires, clash with police in Oakland
Jonathan Woods writes

Following a mainly peaceful day-long protest by thousands of anti-Wall Street demonstrators, several hundred rallied through the night with some painting graffiti, breaking windows and setting file to garbage cans. Yesterday demonstrators shut down the Port of Oakland.

http://photoblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/03/8612741-protesters-set-fires-clash-with-police-in-oakland

So, of course, on NPR this morning the reporters were asking an OWS spokesperson (I’m not sure such a title exists) “why are you shutting down the Port…after all the workers there are 99%‘ers.”

I just find it interesting that “journalists” can’t even ask a decent question any more. If the reporter had to ask the question, HE SIMPLY HASN’T BEEN PAYING ATTENTION…... Even middle-school kids know that OWS is about “sticking it to the man.” Don’t reporters know that strikes, protest and civil disobedience are ALL ABOUT DISRUPTING THE STATUS QUO???????

These are the same, lame reporters who were “embedded” with the troops and who still believe in “precision bomb strikes.” As if one can drop a bomb (in this case create a shut-down) and not hurt “innocent civilians.”

I was very heartened by the non-actions of the OPD and the way they neither assembled in force or even showed any threat of violence. Perhaps all sides are learning something here, which is, of course, the actual purpose of demonstrations.

One should gird ones loins for the usual trash about “violence” by demonstrators from the usual, and increasingly tedious, sources.

Excellent start! Strike! Shut down the wheels of the capitalist beast!