I see I was too hasty in posting my sentiments about Senator Lieberman on this
forum when it was meant for another.  I will post it there and apologize for my
too hurried actions here.

Shenonymous, November 16 at 10:38 am

Yes, I did detect that you were not very far from my thinking on a lot of subjects, as I read a number of your posts on various threads.  Not that I was looking for them, but you do comment on a lot of areas that I have an interest in also.

Regarding the “Martha/Thomas” element who advocate tearing America apart.  I will be right behind you when you do battle against this element.

2.
What is so stunning is the fact that the military in the United States is a
volunteer military.  To my wonderment that fact has not been expressed very
much .  The fact that there are men who might be Muslim sign up for military
duty when a war is being waged in the Middle East is somewhat odd.  But it
happens.  War in the Middle East is over a decade old.  America’s ties to Israel is
over six decades.  Hasan, it was reported by his family, became more devout a
Muslim upon his mother’s death.  That was nine years ago.  Nine years ago the
second war in Iraq erupted.  There was a history of war with Iraq.  He made a
feeble move to leave the service and was denied.  A more strenuous effort he
could have made!  It is not without precedence that men have left the military. 
One is not conscripted to be in the military in the US.

If the person has a RESERVE commission, they can resign it after all their
obligations are served unless we are at war. If they choose to stay in they are
on “indefinite” status and stay in for up to 20 years when they have to retire.

If the person has a REGULAR commission, they can ask to be released after
their obligations are served but they can be denied if the Secretary of their
service branch feels they need to remain. They also are indefinite as far as
service. The advantage of being Regular is you can serve beyond 20 years and
you get priority for assignments and schools.

Enlisted people enlist for a four year tour. They can get out at the end of each
four year tour but not during it except under special circumstances. After five
tours, they hit 20 years and can retire. Or they can keep going with more four
year tours.

http://www.military.com/features/0,15240,83497,00.html

See the following story about resigning during wartime:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/27/politics/washingtonpost/main5
424093.shtml
I believe that Hasan’s violent derangement was, and I have no doubt it was, a
jihad in the way of Allah.  All the hard evidence dug up about Hasan points to
it.  How much is considered proof will be decided by a court.  A military court.

It wasn’t so much that Lieberman said what most Rightists would like to say
about the frenzied attacker at Ft. Hood.  And now because of Lieberman they
have been given leave to make flagrantly false statements. 

BTW:  To piss off another group:  The comparison to the Jewish rabbi is just
laughable.  Anytime there is the remotest hint that Israel or the Jews can be
included in the discussion the anti-Jewish vultures are ready to open their
beaks and the Zionists ready to bite back.  Another 100-years war?

Two parts
1.
I reviewed the 50-slide show.  And if a slide-by-slide lecture is motivated, by
all means be our guest.  Truthdiggers have nothing better to do anyway.

The point is, about Lieberman’s comments, there is no evidence it was other
than a lone individual’s jihad.  There is not even any circumstantial evidence it
was more than that.  And much as I would like it to be one since I have my own
views and have in the past voiced them on TD about the militant Islamists, I do
not believe it was a conspiracy.  Undoubtedly, in my mind, Nidal Hasan was
inspired by his submission to the emotional Islamism that exists in the world
today.  It is based on the reported information that has been dribbling out.
 
What is the issue is Lieberman’s behavior. 

Not all Republicans are alike in the degree of self-interest and it was not
always a characteristic of Republicans to be so corporate centered without a
shred of care about the general public.  But that day seems to have faded into
history.  For if there are those Republicans who do have some sense of human
value for all, they diminish it in their blind support of the party rhetoric.

The left have only marginal justification in their reaction to Rightists’ united
efforts to undermine anything that even borders on liberal programs.  The left
becomes touched immediately by an insanity of their own in defensive mode. 
They become the attackers, often as senseless as the other side’s.

This forum is about Lieberman’s underhanded tactic to align himself for
political status.  He is a self-serving grandstander and has shown it in his often
seductive flirting with Republican lockstep positions such as health care reform. 
I claim he is a whore for the Republicans and the Republicans rejoice when he
climbs their soap box.  They will take any political slut for their program.  It is
all right that the Republicans rejoice, it is their opposition and right to do so. 
They should do so! But it is utterly irresponsible that Lieberman uses his quasi
Independent status in the Senate to further his visibility in the news. 

If one were to read Lieberman’s statements it is easily seen that he doesn’t say
anything worthwhile.  He makes an inflammatory accusation without giving any
evidence except his conjecture from what was shown on television.  Something
akin to what TDers do on the forums.  That there was a conspiracy for that
attack is downright dippy.  Calling for a full-out probe is caustic.  For if it was
an Islamist plot, it was the stupidest attack conceivable.  That a lone gunman
gunned down 13 people, and not to be forgotten, 1 unborn child, is not stupid
but was preplanned by him.  That only 13 people and 1 unborn child was
gunned down does not make a successful terrorist attack on the United States. 
It is a matter of logistics and sense.  There is no evidence it was anything more
than a one-man jihad.

While Hasan’s attack is without question an act of terrorism, there is nothing
that gives evidence he was an instrument of a jihad outside of his own mind. 
And there is nothing that has not been as drummed in the news as much as his
berserk attack except possibly the death of Michael Jackson.  Every second of
his arraignment, the moment-by-moment media watch at the hospital of his
recovery, and the constant speculation upon speculation by innocuous
reportage including interviews of the ants that crawled around the ground
during the attack and their mothers.  We were amazed at the tiny microphones
used.  It is simply a burlesque.  Mr. Lieberman is noted for jumping at the
chance to send his visage onto the media screen.

At the following truthdig article the discussion also continues.

http://www.truthdig.com/avbooth/item/20091109_lieberman_jumps_to_conclusions_about_fort_hood_shooting/

Hasan did an important slide presentation.

Those slides, which i brought to on the thread, will be very important whether the Truthdiggers realize it or not. So far very little interest expressed.

I am thinking of reviewing the slides for everyone anyway.

Good Morning DaveZx3.  I read your impassioned but articulate comments to
me and I was surprised at how exactly I agreed with you!  You and I are on the
same side.  I happen to be left-leaning, a liberal, though I’ve been accused for
keeping a rational centrist view of being a criminal shill for the Right-Wing
Extremist, etc., etc., by rabid over-the-edge leftists who take every
opportunity to criticize America, and if they had the opportunity I would be
hanged!  Such is their fraudulently Christian views.

Why do I implicate self-styled Christian speakers?  Check out the copiously
biblical quotings of the regular TD participants, over-the-Left-edge socialist
MarthaA and her consort (twin?)(alter ego?) ThomasG that dots a plethora of
TD forums both who advocate tearing America apart.  I, and a few others, have
been intensely and strenuously doing battle with that element for weeks and
weeks.  You have presented a view that countercriticizes in both directions
where insanity is the ruling principle and with that I completely concur.  There
are other things we disagree on but this is not one of them.

Shenonymous, November 15 at 7:41 pm

“Checking out his link to the NEFA Foundation, it is ludicrously obvious this is a radical private investigative machine, whose sole purpose is to ferret out what they think are terrorists and
terrorist activities”.

I posted the NEFA Foundation link in an error in judgement.  I was looking for a link to the Muslim Brotherhood statements, and came across that NEFA site right off, and mistakenly posted it because it did carry the Muslim Brotherhood statement of war against America, (which I already knew to exist, because it used to be right on their own site)

NEFA is a foundation which seeks justice for 9/11 victims.  I saw nothing wrong with their basic premise or any problems in linking to their site, but should have found a better site.

I am not a right wing lunatic or left wing lunatic.  I realize that US private and public sector leadership commits serious errors and possible crimes.  I do not condone it, but I realize that this phenomenon does not exist only in America.  It is world-wide, and if anyone needs examples, I have about a million.

I live in America. I would like to see America continue to exist as a sovereign nation and continue to try and work out its problems.  I am pro-American.

Americans who blame America for everything are naive and careless.  All the world’s ills are not our fault.  We get to elect new leadership regularly, yet we complain that we have no good leadership.  The fault for that is squarely upon the electorate. (Of the people, by the people and for the people)

How can you never clean up your house and then complain that you have a dirty house?  Left blames the right - right blames the left.  But the real fault comes from intolerant, one-sided, self-serving minds on the left and the right who seek to divide the people for their own political motivations.

If America has enemies, and you voice anti-American rhetoric, it is the same as voicing pro-enemy rhetoric.  This is a type of treason in that it allows any enemy to see the US as weak and divided.  It encourages an enemy to persevere in the battle and kill more Americans. 

When Bush was in power the left crucified him, and now that Obama is in power the right is crucifying him.  To any enemy or potential enemy looking in, the US is a weak, indecisive, divided nation. 

The real questions are: 

Does America have real enemies seeking her destruction?

Who are they? 

What side are you on?

diamond, my question about both sides having the truth was somewhat
rhetorical.  When I stated “Because it is the reality,” I meant each side perceives
their truth as the real truth.  While there may be an abstract truth, some
universal truth, it would only be the model for truth and not ever be THE
TRUTH.  If there is any truth, it is local truth and how it is manifested in
experience.  I thank you and appreciate your comments, though, as I think you
have it right about how truth can be manifested in experience.  And your
resident ‘why’ question is good advice that ought to be kept packed in one’s
briefcase of reality checking out.

DaveZx3’s comments provides accusations that must be taken into account. 
Nevertheless they must all be verifiable and references are not provided.  Even
the first-hand report by a Marine is only hearsay.  But most who post here
don’t provide references, only give opinions.  Checking out his link to the NEFA
Foundation, it is ludicrously obvious this is a radical private investigative
machine, whose sole purpose is to ferret out what they think are terrorists and
terrorist activities.  They are usurping the government’s function.  In spite of
some of their members testifying in various court trials, and regular news
media interviews, they are self-styled counterterrorists and they are remindful
of Blackwater privateer soldiers.

It is not that these people do not find what they are looking for, but there is no
control that what they find is not interpreted incorrectly to suit their own
purposes.  There is no verification for what they claim.  It seems until NEFA is
interviewed by Charlie Rose, they are an independent fringe group who are
funded by private wealth.  By the way I can’t find anywhere what NEFA stands
for?  Nefa?  What is a Nefa?  Seems like DaveZx3 is onto something though
when he asked someone if he is an anti-American?  Seems there are several on
board the TD forum who could qualify, every forum.

Shenonymous both sides can’t have the truth.If both sides can have the truth then there’s no such thing as reality and no such thing as right and wrong and once you get into that area, where there’s no such thing as right and wrong but only ideology you’re in Pol Pot territory. You’re putting forward neo con ideology as in ‘The truth is whatever we say it is’. Well, no, the truth is not whatever someone says it is.  If you see a wall, it’s a wall and if you don’t think it’s a wall try walking through it. A string of lies have been told about the Fort Hood shootings, the most ambitious being the one about the heroic policewoman who was in fact just plain shot. You need to ask yourself the question newshounds, when there were actually newshounds, used to ask themselves constantly : ‘Whys are these bastards lying to me?”

I have just finished reading all the comments made on this forum. 
OzarkMichael, you make an important point that the questions about Hasan are
not being asked on Truthdig.  Almost all of the commenters, but not all, make
a preconditioned ready response reactively anti-American to confront what is
perceived as anti-Muslim sentiment, but not any real anti-Muslim sentiment
has been expressed.  I don’t see anything OM said as anti-Muslim.  Militant
Islamists cannot be denied, for if they are denied then there is something
wrong with the perception-of-the-world machinery. He did make accusations
of that brand of Islamists.  “The truth is this was Jihad, an act of terrorism done
for the sake of Mohammed’s Koran and Mohammed’s Ummah. Its a simple
fact.”  Where are the references?  The news media gave quite a bit of mileage to
whether anti-Muslim sentiment would be set off like a nuclear reaction in the
American public.  The reality is that the only nuclear reaction that was ignited
was by the news media.  They are the most irresponsible segment of depravity
in human interaction.

There is a small picture jihad carried out by whacked out individuals acting
alone who have been indoctrinated by militant Islam, then there is the big
picture jihad that is perpetrated by Osama bin Laden and militant Islamist
company.  It is a war between the Jews/Christians and the Islamists.  To deny
that is an essential insanity.  Hasan is symptomatic of the small picture jihad. 
The war in Afghanistan is the big picture.  By all the truth that can be parsed
out of all the blurted and bludgeoned news reports Hasan acted alone.  So
while perhaps not a conspiracy, his act “represents” the bigger picture to which
OzarkMichael appears to be reacting.  As a Christian he is feeling the
aggression that is a fact from the Islamists.  He cannot be blamed any more for
that than the peaceful Muslims are feeling threatened because their religious
affiliation makes them suspect.  The Islamist agenda manifests in individuals
going over the edge, ala Louise, that is a reality.  We ought to expect it.  This is
a war not only in Afghanistan.  It is bigger.  It is between these religions. There
are Western soldiers going over the edge and mindlessly killing Muslims as
well. 

The Islamists say there is a conspiracy to exterminate and annihilate them, in
like fashion as does the West (it is not only the United States and that is a fact). 
There is truth on both sides.  But how could both sides have the truth?  Because
it is the reality.

As more and more news, believable or not, comes out about Hasan’s
affiliations, there is more and more suspicion to think there was more behind
his eruption than a lone vigilante acting on his own.  However, things never are
as they are perceived, meaning reality is not as it is reported!

However, and paraphrasing OzarkMichael, on Nov 11 at 12:54 pm, he says,
“Instead of the facts, America can only recite propaganda, spewing convoluted
reasons why the attack happened. America blames Bush for this, or the CIA, or
the Judeo-Christian ethic, etc, etc.” This is not true either.  Just because
there is not a groundswell of lower income Americans who champions Bush, et
al does not mean that “All of America,” blames Bush, et al.  Maybe OM means
only those Americans who count?  America is replete of those who do not
believe the propaganda in the class of those who do not count.  Do take a
nationwide poll, please. 

It is the fallacy of inclusion that is perpetrated over and over by the
commenters on TD on both sides of the dispute.  “The all and the weeze,” does
not represent the all and the weeze! 

DBM at the various posts I’ve run across here, shows a rational mind on this
forum attempting to see the truth instead of resorting to emotionalism.  It is
refreshing.

You know what my proof is: Davezx3? When my brain tells me that something is somewhere in between impossible and improbable then it probably is. And why would they hesitate to kill 13 people when they’ve killed a million in Iraq and 3,000 on 9/11? The mistake you’re making is that you think they give a damn. They don’t. Human life means nothing to them: all they care about is money and power, and war gives them both.

diamond, November 11 at 8:07 pm

“This attack at Ford Hood was a black op and Hasan was supposed to die but didn’t. It was meant to stir up public outrage ans strengthen the case for staying in Afghanistan but Hasan is still alive and he won’t be found guilty in any court case that’s not rigged but a lot of stuff has now got to be covered up. That’s why the press is not talking about it”

A conspiracy theory already, and the case is less than a week old. 

How do they get everyone to keep the secret?  How did they get Hasan to go in with the guns and do his thing?  How do they get all these things done? 

And the last question:  Do you really think 13 people were murdered to gain support for continuing the war in Afghanistan? 

If you have any proof at all about these things, I would think that you should produce them or desist from posting such outrageous conspiracy theories.

If you want to talk about stirred up public outrage, what about the following: 

http://www1.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/nefaikhwan1007.pdf

“The Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood in the US) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its
miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

Unfortunately Ozark Michael you’re wrong. This attack at Ford Hood was a black op and Hasan was supposed to die but didn’t. It was meant to stir up public outrage ans strengthen the case for staying in Afghanistan but Hasan is still alive and he won’t be found guilty in any court case that’s not rigged but a lot of stuff has now got to be covered up. That’s why the press is not talking about it. You may recall that a man called Steven Hatfill took the FBI to court after they had destroyed his name and his career by accusing him of sending the anthrax letters. He got $6 million in compensation. Use your common sense: how could a psychiatrist who wasn’t even trained for battle burst in and shoot two handed like Billy the Kid killing and wounding so many in such a short time? And who were the two arrested and released? The whole story stinks. The BBC in Britain has no credibility at all and is very gung ho on staying in Afghanistan and from what I can see is lying at a pace not seen since 9/11.

diamond said: I’ve never seen a country with such a death wish.

So true. How else to explain the American news coverage on this story?

The first words in the Amercain press were, “This has nothing to do with religion.”

And they have not reported the full story since. The only place we are finding out the truth about the terrorist is from the British newspapers. They keep breaking the facts that Obama and the American Press has been hiding from us.

Instead of the facts, America can only recite propaganda, spewing convoluted reasons why the attack happened. America blames Bush for this, or the CIA, or the Judeo Christian ethic, etc, etc.

The truth is this was Jihad, an act of terrorism done for the sake of Mohammed’s Koran and Mohammed’s Ummah. Its a simple fact. Why cant anyone admit that?

I will tell you why. We cannot call things by their proper name because we have a death wish. Read the first 10 posts here and the death wish says, “Its all our fault. We dont deserve to live.”

as diamond said: I’ve never seen a country with such a death wish.

So true!

Davezx3 are you seriously suggesting that America needs to be defended? The only thing America needs to be defended from is itself. I’ve never seen a country with such a death wish. Strangely enough I don’t feel obligated to defend the bully (I leave that to Fox and other such cretins)I feel obligated to defend the bully’s victims who stretch from one side of the world to the other,many of them only children, burned with phosphorous bombs and permanently maimed with America’s landmines.

The landmines alone are a war crime but the rest of the war crimes would fill a hefty book. America’s landmines have been scattered around the third world like confetti but America gives the least foreign aid of any country in the world as a percentage of GDP, once you take Israel out of the equation, because Israel gets billions of taxpayer dollars every year and every weapon of mass destruction their hearts desire. By and large America’s gifts to the third world have been bombs, invasions, the overthrow of elected governments, proxy wars such as the one fought by the Mujuheddin against the Soviet Union or the one fought by Saddam Hussein against Iran at the cost of over a million lives. You say there are lunatics in very country: of course there are. But do those lunatics have nuclear weapons, an enormous military machine, a stranglehold on the world economy, a stranglehold on the world’s media,and a veto in the United Nations which means crimes against Muslims are never even condemned let alone acted on? I think you’ll find they don’t. And don’t believe that nonsense that they hate you for your freedoms: they hate you because from where they’re standing, you’re hateful- and have been for many decades. If the day ever comes when America behaves like a responsible global citizen instead of an oil-addicted megalomaniac and stops treating its own citizens like serfs in some medieval kingdom I’ll sing America’s praises from the rooftops. As George W. Bush said about his prospective win in the election in Florida ‘You can count on it’.

You see Diamond, it is not possible to come to an discusion with you, if you want to write and think together, you have to reed wath the other part in an contact is writing to you, other wise its an one way history, and thats just the whole problem with the modern beliefers of the Islam, they don’t discus, they don’t listen to wath other people have to say, but oppress the other thinkers or if you like religions, see wath they have donne with the Christians, or the Cops, and other old ways of thinking, no I know lots of Moslims who disapprove and condem this so called Moslims, what they say is this fundalistic dogmatic Moslims are send by the devil to destroy the Islam fait, it are the 4 riders on the horses from the apocalyps, you know what this word means apocalyps it means raising the veil, and that is what will happen, in other words the darker site of Islam will be unmask, and put in the full light of love, and it will fading slowly.

diamond, November 10 at 7:18 pm

We could argue about the relative lunacy of everyone on your list, but did you leave out the fact that lunatics live all over the world, not just in America, because you are anti-American? 

I am not being a smart-ass, I am just asking.  I think that incompetence, bad judgment, conflicts of interests, even racketeering are tame compared to the statements coming from the Muslim Brotherhood.

I am not justifying all those things I listed, they are wrong, but they seem to exist to some extent everywhere. 

But does anyone have the right to exterminate a people over this list?  That is the question that I would like answered?  Does anyone have the right to state unequivocally that their goal is the extermination of a people? 

If you or anyone else has any evidence that any group or nation or individual has attempted the extermination of a people due to political or religious reasons, then that group or nation or individual needs to condemned immediately and brought to trial or judgement at some level.

And I would be right behind the effort, whether it was Dick Cheney, Benjamin Netanyahu (sp) or anyone else.

Davezx3 you’re right. There is no negotiating with madmen. That’s why I would never attempt to negotiate with Dick Cheney, Joe Lieberman and the CIA or for that matter the Pentagon, Goldman Sachs, AIG, Unocal, the health insurance industry, the arms corporations Bill O’Reilly, Rupert Murdoch, Mossad, the FSB and Ayn Randian free market economists. It came as no surprise to me to read that a stock broker on Wall Street claimed that Wall Street was doing ‘God’s work’. The devil must have had a good laugh at that one.

diamond, November 10 at 6:20 pm

“To create the illusion of a terrorist threat in America so that the war in Afghanistan can continue”.

Read from the following website and say again that there is an illusion of a terrorist threat in America.  Tell the 9/11 victims there is the illusion of a terrorist threat in America.  Tell the authorities who have arrested 61 home-grown suspects in the past ten months for plotting terrorist attacks that there is the illusion of a terrorist threat in America.  And tell the Fort Hood victims that their tragedy was an illusion. 

America nor Israel have stated anything like the following in relation to their conflicts with any other country. 

“The Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood in the US) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its
miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

http://www1.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/nefaikhwan1007.pdf

It is hard to negotiate with people that have these ideas, and the ideas of the Iranian Madman.  If Israel or America or any other country would have uttered words like Ahmadinejad uttered about the annihilation of Israel it would have been denounced worldwide.  Yet Ahmadinejad is still free to make his bombs. 

The Palestinians have a legitimate problem, but there were more people displaced by Katrina than there were in Palestine.  The problem does not rise to the level of the annihilation of Israel.  Nor does it rise to the level of the terrorists training in America to destroy from within. 

It is all being blown out of proportion so the Anti-God element can rid the world of the Jews once and for all, and take the largest Christian population with them also.  It is as they put it, “Jihad” religious war.  Moslems against Jews and Christians.

If it were as simple as giving in to the settlement issues, the Israelis would certainly do it.  It is a small price to pay for the security to live for a while longer.  But Israel knows the true nature of the conflict.  They fully understand the goal is to annihilate them at all costs.  And so does the US. 

There is no negotiating with madmen.

My point, Johannes, is that if you want to talk about making war and creating hate you can’t leave America out of the picture. And you can’t leave Israel out of the picture either . The people in Hamas and Hezbollah didn’t wake up one day in a really bad mood and say ‘Let’s go out and kill people’. They see themselves as patriots involved in defending their people. They don’t exist in an historical vacuum.

By concentrating only on Islam and Muslims, and demonizing them in the process, you’re ignoring the Christian and Jewish factors that created the present disaster. You can expect, for example, that the character assassination of Major Hasan in the mainstream media will play heavily on the fact that his parents are Palestinian. This is, of course,  the reason they chose him as their scapegoat. To create the illusion of a terrorist threat in America so that the war in Afghanistan can continue. They know that only a minority of Americans now support either of their occupations and they know that a similar mood prevailed when they had to pull out of Vietnam. What happened in Fort Hood is not about religion- it’s about America’s obsession with invading countries (and lying about why they did it) and the arms corporations and oil corporations desire for ever increasing market share. To people like these Hasan is collateral damage. It’s not helpful to take the line that essentially says that Muslims are evil - because they’re evil. Or to adopt the fall back position that says they wouldn’t be evil if they were only more like us. What a paradise we could create if everyone was only more like us! America’s foray into the Middle East is about creating a global monoculture ruled by the military and surveillance. This effort is the real enemy, not Islam.

To Diamond

I know very well what the humanity has donne and will do now and again.

Thats not my point, my point is on this moment that most Moslims leth them selfs by used, for something thats not written in their holy book, thats to say intolerant against other ways of thinking.

If I reed old books about Islamists like Ibn Battutah, you geth an whole other picture of the Islam and his beliefers, or about the people who created the Alhambra in Andalusia, no the Islam is in hands from non beliefers who use it for what I do not know, creating hate and making war.

But as you stand up for your idèes, so do I for mine, I want to keep my freedom of thinking and living, as I hope you will have as well.

Johannes, everything I said is true. Historically true, not just my opinion. You act as if what I’ve said is somehow eccentric or mistaken. You know as well as I do that Europe’s history on violence and warfare is absolutely shocking. Cast your mind back to the peasant’s war in which parts of Germany were reduced to a moonscape as Protestant armies swept through carrying out all kinds of atrocities. And this was for centuries the norm in Europe, as one kind of religious orthodoxy after the other was used as an excuse for slaughter. The kind of things you are now saying about the Muslims were at one time said about the Jews. We know how it ended. In slaughter. Now these things are routinely said about Muslims and it should come as no surprise to anyone that it has ended in warfare and slaughter. You need to take responsibility for the things you say. Words are weapons. And you’re very quick to say no one can be blamed for these historical wrongs,  but then you’re also only too happy to blame all Muslims for anything and everything any Muslim has ever said or done. That’s called prejudice and you seem to be furtively advocating collective punishment which is not only unjust but illegal under international law.

While the mainstream media is busy downplaying the shooter’s religion, just think if an O’Reilly or Goldberg book was found in his home or, God forbid, there was a talk station pre-set on his car radio or he once knew a guy who had a cousin who attended a tea party.  There would be endless, mindless speculation and convoluted banner headlines about [how] the evil right-wing is sowing hatred and inspiring death.

You see the media don’t want to jump to any conclusions in this case, especially when they’re politically incorrect conclusions.  But they’d jump to conclusions, wouldn’t they, if a white guy with a crew cut and overalls from the rural south walked into a local NAACP office and shot up the place.  They’d conclude the guy was a racist.  And they’d almost certainly be right.  With the Fort Hood story there was sound reason to suspect the killer’s religion played a part in the massacre, and all we got was drivel about how stressed out soldiers are these days.

Well I will answer you out of politeness, your wordstream is not educative nor on a fundation of knowing or awareness of our human history.

You can not blame enyone of things happened, its all under the cloak of the zeitgeist now.

What people allways do if they want to be justified, they start to generalize the facs and people.

What I sayd before the Islam is not my cup of thèe, and I will fight them with all my power, its not possible to live to gether while they can not and will not tolerate people with an other way of thinking, they keep quiet and unseen, till the moment they have sufficient support.

No problem, AS. More light and less heat is my motto.

By diamond, November 8 at 7:26 pm #
====================================
Diamond, thank you for your enlightened posts and your commitment to truth against the falsehoods, bigotry and racism of some posters on these threads. You’re indeed a beacon of light in a sea of darkness. May you be given long life and good health to continue your campaign against bigotry, racism and ignorance!

Johannes you in Europe are the ones who killed the Jews and started the mad, sad story that led eventually to the political theatre of 9/11 and the war on terror of which this black op in Texas is part. Why didn’t Britain let the Jewish refugees have Surrey? Why didn’t the Germans give them part of Germany? The Russians and the Poles are also notorious for their anti-semitism during WWII. Russia could have given the Jewish refugees some of their land.It seems to me that Muslims have become the scapegoats for Europe’s murderous ethnic cleansing during WWII. All the more ironic that you describe the Muslims as violent, under the historical circumstances that description could equally well be applied to the whole of Europe because Europe’s entire history is a history of bloodshed and injustice and endless religious conflict. I don’t think Jesus would approve of your racism and intolerance. He was a Palestinian too, you know.

Garo said: Religious zealot and ideologue commenters have shown their true colors of biases and bigotry as they started immediately the easy practice of finger-pointing. They have sounded so empty to me as they have used the comment,” We all know “. What the f**k they mean by “all”? I certainly have not given them my permission to include me in their,“all”.

I should never assume that people like you know anything. From your comments we can all be sure you dont know a thing about the incident.

As far as biases and finger-pointing is concerned, there was a spate of it from the people you admire. They blamed Bush, the FBI, the Judeo Christian ethic, etc. All with no evidence whatsover. All of that is pure bias on their part.

Do not refer to me as a bigot when I am only stating the facts: This was a terrorist act, Jihad in the way of Allah. This is undoubtably what the killer was thinking before and during his murder spree.

He yelled “Allah Akbar!” just so his victims would know what their attacker was killing them for.

I take him at his word. If you want to defend him, go right ahead.

I have come to find out that 10 out of 14 US Army Muslim Chaplains have had training in a Maryland Mosque operated by the Muslim Brotherhood.  The psychiatrist that killed and injured 42 people at Ford Hood was trained there as well. 

The following website has some information about a lawsuit brought against the Muslim Brotherhood by the US Justice Dept in the wake of 9/11.  The quote under the URL is taken straight out of documents provided as evidence by the federal prosecutors. 

http://www1.nefafoundation.org/miscellaneous/nefaikhwan1007.pdf

“The Ikhwan (Muslim Brotherhood in the US) must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” its
miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all other religions.”

I know this is not news to everyone, but is the first time that I have looked into this personally.

To Diamond,

We in Europe have and had much more contact with the Moslims, in the latest hundreds of years, not to say that we do know every thing bether as other countrys.

The Islam is a wapon to conquer, its not something wath will bring light and love, their are books enough to prove my point of view.

Maby you chould reed some books from John le Carrè, about the dirty thinking in espionage, about mols etc.

The whole USA political climat is impregnated and saturated with oil power, good friends with the Saudies meens Islamist in your army.

I know the Islam, I know some Moslims, well its not my cup of theè, but go ahead let you spin in their net.

DBM, November 8 at 4:31 am

I too am puzzled by the Chinese presence at the Mexcican border.  You can google it and come up with quite a bit of evidence.  My evidence was first-hand, coming from a Marine stationed in the area.
China has been given a foothold in Central America, and may be doing what nations do, probe the borders of potential enemies when given the chance.

Regarding plants, the term, I think, has to include so-called home grown terrorism or espionage.  Wherein
citizens of every type might be recruited or exploited due to their religous, political or ideological persuasions.  The word plant can be discarded if misleading, but the idea is that citizens and others can be recruited into causes and groups which have an intent to harm or kill Americans.

I am not singling out Muslims, but the psychiatrist major brought attention to them by his actions.  I have since learned that 10 of the 14 Muslim Chaplains in the US Army graduated from a school operated by the International Brotherhood of Muslims, which is located, I believe in Virginia somewhere.  The United States is the only western country who has not designated this organization as a terrorist organization.  Due in part to the fact that contained within their creed are the words “Jihad is our way”  They are accused of prosyletizing in the US ARmy, as you will find that the Major psychiatrist was also, with a number of complaints against him to that effect. 

My point is that an enemy is present among us, invisible to some extent.  Not only some radical Muslims, but right wing nuts, left wing nuts, you name it.  The enemy is radicalism which encourages violence and murder to further their cause.  We are very naive not to suspect that more horrible events will happen.

Zx3, that was very measured and reasonable response.  My apologies if I sounded like I was lumping you in with the Birther / Teabagger set! 

I *am* a little puzzled by the foreign incursion angle (especially that they would be Chinese operating thousands of miles from home and from a staunch ally of the U.S. - Mexico).  Perhaps I’m naive but it just doesn’t pass the common sense test for me.  I also think that while “plants” are for real, they are not people like this guy.  I can see a “plant” being a terrorist living under a cover for a few months or even years before carrying out an attack.  Take, for example, the Mumbai attacks earlier this year.  Some of those guys lived in a fishing village for some time leading superficially ordinary lives, then carried out the attack. 

More information has come out about Hasan has come out since this thread started and it seems that he was born in the U.S., educated in the military and was a career military man. It seems that he was conflicted by his Palestinian heritage and U.S. foreign policy though that doesn’t explain going completely off-the-rails as he obviously did.  However, to be a “plant” for his entire life like that also doesn’t pass the common sense test.  It has proven much easier to have people in the country for briefer periods taking flying lessons and making plans than to maintain a double existence for an entire lifetime.

Regarding Obama, I suspect we feel a bit the same way but for different reasons.  As far as I can see his intelligence and determination, though initially encouraging, have not led to any progress on what he represented in most people’s minds.  Rather than deal with Washington as an Outsider, he has surrounded himself with the same money-men and military advisors who created the problems.  I fear that there is no chance for a way out of his “must-succeed-at-all-costs” situation while Goldman Sachs and the Military Industrial complex hold sway.

Montanawildhawk war is not a constant state of mankind - it’s a choice like any other. Sweden last had a war in 1814. That means they haven’t had a war with anyone whatsoever for 195 years. America chooses to be at war and when there is no likely enemy they create one as they did in 2001. The Russians did the same in 1999 when the FSB bombed buildings in Moscow so that they could have a war with Chechnya. Without war how could the CIA and the Pentagon possibly justify the huge amount of taxpayer dollars that go into their bloated budgets every year? Money that is taken away from the genuine needs of the American people so that it can fund war and war profiteering. The truth is there is no nation on earth that could attack America but the military and political elites don’t want to talk about that. It’s bad for business.

Johannes you don’t seem to understand the game of smoke and mirrors that is the war on terror at all. The truth is, American Muslims have been model citizens and refused to be provoked into attacking Americans or America in the so-called homeland since the war on terror started. So much so that sting operations and entrapment and manufacturing of evidence has been the only way the FBI has been able to keep the idea of homegrown terror alive and in the media at all. This incident at Fort Hood has black op written all over it. The fact that Hasan’s death was announced and then retracted is a red flag, the fact that multiple shooters were announced and then retracted is a red flag, the fact that this man had no history of violence and was a psychiatrist treating men with war trauma is a red flag (why would he shoot soldiers, the people he had dedicated his working life to helping?)the fact that so many were hit by gunfire is a red flag indicating more than one shooter. The whole story doesn’t add up and your anti-Muslim racism does you no credit at all. You may be intellectually challenged enough or prejudiced enough to accept the dud story playing in the media but I’m not.

DBM, November 7 at 9:15 am #

“What on earth would China want with military action in the U.S.?  If they want the U.S. they’ll just foreclose on what is owed to them”.

China is the world’s new superpower, ever growing and expanding in whatever way they see fit. 

Regarding the southern border, it does seem that the incursions are not as plentiful over recent years, or just that I have not asked about them.  They do not make the news.  I will have to check back into that issue to see what is going on.

No argument here from the bad business practices?  I guess being in debt does have its good side.  As long as we owe them, they will hope we do well, hopefully.  Of course the time will come when the dollar is so useless that we will lose that leverage.  At that point, we are like the gambler that owes the bookie a bundle, and gets his knees broken and whatever possessions he has taken. 

I am not an alarmist, just an ex-analyst who looks into all angles. 

I have no ill will towards Obama.  He won, fair and square.  I was initially encouraged by his intelligence and what looked like determination.  He has a strong familly and seems to be a very decent father, and husband.  Not crazy about his politics. 

In a way it is too bad that our first non-white president had to come in at a time when Jefferson, Washington and Lincoln, all three combined, would have a hard time solving our problems.  He is in a must-succeed-at-all-costs, situation, which will add a lot of stress to an alrady overwhelming responsibility.

What on earth would China want with military action in the U.S.?  If they want the U.S. they’ll just foreclose on what is owed to them.

The only catch for the Chinese is that they’re deep into some bad business practices:  For years they’ve been lending the U.S. money so that Americans were still able to buy Chinese goods.  Imagine running your own business that way ... lending money to customers so they can buy your goods!  The last thing they want is an American collapse.

As for the “plants”:
Next thing you’ll be saying that someone would import a muslim Kenyan and keep the whole thing under wraps for 40 years before taking the White House ...

Their are 10 000 Moslim USA soldiers, yuo must be real naîf for not to say stupid to leth that happen.

Reeding the commontairs on other American sites, they are allready very far in their recruting of non Moslim American youngpeople, wath a shame, a little bit later on they want the Sharia law, as where they push for in England.

We are fighting them, and our alies leth them come in by the back door, maby waths happened now is an eye opener, its not something very bright to exame all incoming tourists, and leth your frontiers in the south open, and even have them in your army, its crazy.

How many soldiers are all ready killed by a shot in their back.

DBM, November 7 at 4:16 am #

I said:  “Chinese recon patrols penetrate our southern border out of Mexico.  Terrorists train and recruit all over this country. 

Chinese have been penetrating the southern border for years, mostly as illegal imimigrants.  They have also been discovered dressed as Mexican military, and on at least one occasion, in Chinese military uniforms.  These incidents, suppressed by US and Mexican governments, are confirmed by US Border Patrol agents and US Marines called to back up the agents.  Firefights had been reported on at least a couple of occasions.  It is impossible to ascertain the exact nature of the Chinese insertions.  And it certainly seems to have faded out over the past few years.  At one time about 5 years ago, it was verified that the Chinese military had large troop buildups in Mexico right across the border.  Most of my information came from US Marines stationed in the area.  There are lots of unverified accountings across the net. 

A US Government report confirmed that there were approx 35 Jihad training camps on US Soil.  I don’t have the specific report, but it is available if you want to search for it.  I personally went to observe a location in North Carolina as I passed through that state a while back.  There were signs and everything. 

Not saying the Major was part of a conspiracy, per se, but his actions had most of the components of a traditional Jihadist attack.  I was not commenting on his name or nationality, just his methods.  But I am not afraid to call a Jihadist a Jihadist.  It is not an alarmist stance, but just an observation based on the facts as they have come out. 

Plants are very useful insurgency and counterinsurgency methods.  The process has been explained by ex-Soviet spies who came over under the guise of student exchanges, and were allowed to live in America for years by their Soviet masters until they were called upon for their mission. It is well known and documented.

Zx3 you worry me ...

There are few people in this discussion trying to see this as a terrorist act because the guy has an Arabic name.  I wonder as to the motivation for that sort of thing but you specifically give a couple of hints:

“Chinese recon patrols penetrate our southern border out of Mexico.  Terrorists train and recruit all over this country.  What do you think tomorrow holds?”  and “His actions reflect to me, the actions of a “plant”. Someone who is recruited but left to proceed with his life as is.  At the time allotted, he springs to action and commits his act of war.  Jihadists resort to plants, and it is just another brand of their terrorism.”

Wow!  You’ve had the frighteners put on you!  I’m sure if you vote conservative and militaristic you’ll feel safer from all those Chinese recon patrols and the sleepers or “plants” that have been living next door just waiting for a key moment to go all terrorist ...

I’m not saying you’re paranoid, just that you’ve been misinformed for a reason.  Let me know when you meet one of those Chinese recons personally ok?

OzarkMichael, November 7 at 3:49 am

Thanks for saying what we all know.  “The motivation of these killings was Jihad in the way of Allah. It was Islamic terrorism”.

Yes, indeed it was.  Carried out by one individual perhaps, but Jihadist terror none-the-less.  Very similar to a suicide bombing. 

Arabian Sinbad is correctly identifying the participants of the evolving world war. 

It is the Jihadist Muslim terrorist extremists VERSUS wacko-Christian-Zionist zealots.  The main battle will be fought in Jezreel, and there will be many nations present.  It will be extremely ugly and devastating.

It is time to start acknowledging these things and finding solutions.  It is more important than global warming, it is more important than the economy.  Where is the voice of the peacemaker, and who should police the aggressor(s)?

Louise does a quote chop on me: “Jihad ... Islamic terrorism. ... it is so predictable that I could set my watch by it…”

of course what i actually said was: “The motivation of these killings was Jihad in the way of Allah. It was Islamic terrorism.

There. I said what we all know is true.

Lets see what happens next, although it is so predictable that I could set my watch by it…”

What was so ‘predictable’ in my quote was the Leftist reaction. I expected to be called Islamophobic and in so mnay words thats what happened.

Notice that Louise never refutes what I say, never takes facts into consideration. She just does a quote chop and thats about it.

Let me try a quote chop on Louise.

Here is what Louise ‘said’:  “I… Don’t think…. Don’t even pretend to”

Louise, we all knew that without you telling us. Please keep posting anyway. And good luck with that cliff up ahead, my Leftist Lemming.

Quick! Tuck your nose in behind Arabian Sinbad, who leads the charge with this remark:

Christian-Zionist zealots like you OzarMichel, who pretend to know much about Islam, there will always be Muslim reactionaries whose mottoes will be, “Nothing blunts steal but steal.”

Please take note that we have another entry into the “real” motivation for Jihad list. The real motivation for Jihad is because an infidel like me notices the Jihad and is unafraid to say outloud…

The motivation of these killings was Jihad in the way of Allah. It was Islamic terrorism.

By OzarkMichael, November 6 at 10:55 pm #

“The motivation of these killings was Jihad in the way of Allah. It was Islamic terrorism.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now, I sadly understand that as long as there are wackos-Christian-Zionist zealots like you OzarMichel, who pretend to know much about Islam, there will always be Muslim reactionaries whose mottoes will be, “Nothing blunts steal but steal.”

Louise, November 7 at 1:54 am

“he just didn’t want to go. Now someone who knew how to handle anger, and had someone close to share their frustration with might have dealt with their problem in a more rational way. But maybe not”.

If a career military major and psychiatrist does not know how to handle anger, then psychiatry is a farce and military training a double farce. (good subjects for another story)

The guy was well trained and competent.  It was not a matter of him “handling his problem in a more rational way” 

His actions reflect to me, the actions of a “plant”.
Someone who is recruited but left to proceed with his life as is.  At the time allotted, he springs to action and commits his act of war.  Jihadists resort to plants, and it is just another brand of their terrorism. 

Might not be what happened at Fort Hood, but it has all the characteristics.

gerard, November 6 at 7:44 pm #

“Re:  “conscientious objection” as “the way the major should have done it.”  Nine out of ten average people have never heard of conscientious objection, or if they have, think it is a way of cheating.  Why do you think it is kept a deep-dyed secret?  Maybe because more people would use it?”

I only bring “conscientious objection” up because it would have had to be an understood concept of a psychiatrist helping soldiers.  Even though he may try to discourage it as a military professional, he had to have known of the concept. 

Also, achieving legal “conscientious objection” status is one thing, but insisting beyond being legal is also an option.  You just go to jail and lose your job.  Still, to someone who just does not want to go, it is worth it. 

My gut feeling is that the major absolutely knew how to go about “not going”.  He chose another path which was not at all related to “conscientious objection”.  He chose to go to war, and he chose the side of those who did not give him his paycheck and training.  He chose to kill those he had lived with for many years.  He expected to die, so he is no different than the suicide bomber. 

IF the killer had been in a different occupation, walked in with bombs strapped to his body and yelled “Allah Akbar” and detonated himself, would we declare that an act of terrorism & war?  YES. This incident only differs by slight degrees. 

This incident should be put in the category of war and terrorism.  Those who died shold be categorized as Killed In Action (KIA)  Purple Hearts should be awarded to the wounded and killed. 

The major is not a psychiatric case, but a prisoner of war.

Hmmm, and a few more hmmm’s.

As one of the Commanders said yesterday, regarding troops on the base and packing guns. “This is our home. We don’t carry weapons around at home.” A concept probably foreign to all the wannabee warriors who love to pack guns around at home, and everywhere else for that matter, but wouldn’t be caught dead in a war. (pun intended)

One of the weapons was a rapid fire semi-automatic hand gun, using “cop-killer” ammunition. Definitely not military issue, but a favorite among the wannabees. And, everybody was wearing military issue, so it’s possible there may have been some “friendly” fire.

Hopefully all that will be sorted out. Not to set at ease the minds of those who’ve already closed their minds, but for the sake of clarity for the wounded and families of the dead. So, before any of you hurt yourselves trying to figure out what happened, I suggest we wait for more facts to come in.

By the way, the alleged shooter was going to be deployed to Afghanistan, not Iraq. So I suspect more than anything, and like so many others, he just didn’t want to go. Now someone who knew how to handle anger, and had someone close to share their frustration with might have dealt with their problem in a more rational way. But maybe not. I mean look what happened in Florida today.

However I agree, there are far too many “private” contractors performing formerly military functions. That’s another gift from Cheney the Dick. Started back when he was Secretary of Defense. (A scary thought.)

~~~

OzarkMichael

“Jihad ... Islamic terrorism. ... it is so predictable that I could set my watch by it…”

~~~

Ah yes, religious bigotry is indeed so predictable we could, actually did, set our watch by it. And here I thought the backward, narrow minded hillbilly from the Ozarks stereotype was, well a stereotype. I guess behind every perception there must be a bit of fact.

But don’t stop!

No indeed, don’t stop. Don’t think. Don’t even pretend to have as much sense as a ripe cantilope!
Because as the all to common, conservative, ignorance and stupidity floods our senses ... day after day we grow ever closer to letting right-wing wackos march themselves right off a cliff.

And that’s just got to be a good thing.

Meanwhile another angry, lonely man destroyed himself, by destroying life around him. How sad is that. Maybe the real problem is there are far to many angry, lonely men.

Quick Michael, go hug someone!

The themes of all the posts so far:

Blaming the man’s action on Bush. Blaming it on the Judeo Christian ethic. Blaming it on Israel. Blaming it on U.S. military bases. Blaming it on the initial rumors. Blaming it on some conspiracy by the CIA.

Did I miss anyone’s post? 

Oh yes,  some meaningless drivel like: Many of those who tried to enlighten were hanged from the lampposts.

It is absolutely amazing to me the lengths to which the Truthdiggers will go to keep from calling something by its proper name.

Not that i am so much smarter than you, but you guys can’t get right to the proximal cause, and you look stupid dancing all the killer’s motivation.

Well let me enlighten you and we will see what happens to me.

The motivation of these killings was Jihad in the way of Allah. It was Islamic terrorism.

There. I said what we all know is true.

Lets see what happens next, although it is so predictable that I could set my watch by it…

Would have to agree with diamond, the bullshit is pretty thick, time lines and such and those who were first to respond on an army base seems a little peculiar. But then again most everything but humping the bush is done by private contractors nowadays.

Even with that said, I thought that one of the reason’s we were fighting there was so things like this wouldn’t happen here. God has his ways, looks like the god of jihad won this round, although I doubt that the god of the crusade will even miss a step.

Re:  “conscientious objection” as “the way the major should have done it.”  Nine out of ten average people have never heard of conscientious objection, or if they have, think it is a way of cheating.  Why do you think it is kept a deep-dyed secret?  Maybe because more people would use it? 
  Anyhow, there are certain requirements and limitations that have to be observed in order to achieve that status.  Proof of seriousness of intent is of primary importance, plus valid recommentations, past experiences of convincement.  Details available from Quaker organizations (American Friends Service Committee etc.) and Central Committee for Conscientioius Objectors, and a few other low-budget, not widely advertised organizations.  Go to Google.
  Rules change slightly now and then, so keep updated and follow the procedures carefully. Needless to say, the military will be of little or no help, so learn the details before you start the process.

Very powerful, glen wayne.

I was suspicious too, Diamand, espeically about handguns shooting that many people.  But there is now an acoount in the UNTimes of his preliminary giving away his possesions ahead of time that is convincing about his personal committment.  What he did was religous and logical, as religion and logic are currently understood.  Of course I don’t know if thre were others.

How terrible is was to see that this guy had an Arabic name ... I just knew there would be whole lot of posts like the crap below saying that he should never have been trusted and other racist waffle.

After 14 years in the military, he finally sprung his trap, right?  Next thing you’ll be saying that someone would import a muslim Kenyan and keep the whole thing under wraps for 40 years before taking the White House ... oh wait ...

What a bunch of morons ...

Sorry folks but my bullshit detector just went off and won’t stop beeping. A psychiatrist? First he’s dead, then he’s not? Eyewitnesses said more than one person was firing but now it’s ‘he acted alone’. And please, someone enlighten me: why would a man who has dedicated his life to helping soldiers recover from the trauma of war, a doctor, shoot soldiers? The whole story is a set up - for military or political purposes, created in God knows what sick mind. You can expect the mainstream media to go along with any crap the right puts out but I expect more from truthdig.

Many of those who tried to enlighten were hanged from the lampposts. —
Stanislaw Jerzy Lec

Lamppost Hangings     ePIe     November 6th, 2009

Swinging sac like shadows from the post block the light
of ‘those who tried to enlighten’ most.

Concentrate the light zap me, turn my body into toast.
High tech enlightenment.. without the flutter, without the post.

Pre-empt some post trauma…..Shrink wrap your PTSD
Plead shooter spree dreams…. from devil doctrine teams.
Plead normative non norms.. for the crazies in the dorms
Lockdown belief,.. for time is always brief.

‘Brevity and wit’....take time for a relaxing shit;
Is there no past tense for shit?
Fill in the blank I would have——myself,
if I had had time for pause but no ,
I was run down by the cause.

Don’t question. Don’t inform.
Slip a Pavlov on the form.  Tick.
Tic,
terminator training,
toggle off for on.

Howl at the wall.
Smile at the forlorn.
The fog is about to blow the horn.

Sad as this tragic incident might be, I am appalled at those who find it unusual that such violence took place on a military base.
What is a military base! It’s place were people are trained to kill and be ready to accept that they will be killed. In other words, it’s a place where a culture of violence and death is promoted and glorified in the name of patriotism or sacrificing for one’s country.

Moreover, such places are full of victims who have been psychologically and physically scarred as a result of violent wars half way around the world. Obviously, the gunman in this case is one who can equally be called a victim and a victimizing.

What should be surprising for people is that such violence does not happen with more frequency considering the culture of war-mongering and violence our country has been experiencing for a close to a decade now.

I agree with those posters who are hinting that the solution lies in ending wars and bringing soldiers home; first to be rehabilitated and second to be involved in nation-building which is badly needed at home.

gerard, November 6 at 1:55 pm #

“There are a lot of other places they could have sent him, right?  And the Middle East is not the only place where psychiatrists are needed? And military rigidity is not the only—or even the most sensible—way of dealing with problems?  And was it worth the Hood experience just to make that point clear, among others”?

All you say is too sensible.  I was in the military, the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing regarding the admin of it.  Hopefully the actual combat is a little more planned.

Some bonehead might have actually believed it would do the major good to experience a little combat.  he was squawking so loud that a little “put up or shut up” might have been deemed to be in order. 

But remember one thing.  The Army does recognize ones right to conscientious objection, which is the way the major should have done it.  You simply refuse to go under conscientious objector status (ie: you don’t want to kill your family members) or whatever. 

You will be court-martialed, lose your job and commission and be removed from the service under other than honorable conditions, in addition to some jail time, possibly.  If you really believe in something, all those things are the price you pay.  A small price, really.

He chose to kill 12 and wound 31.  I do mean chose, as it was obviously premeditated.  Now he gets to go to jail for life.  I don’t know how he got to be a psychiatrist.  You think a psychiatrist could have worked those things out in his head a little better. 

Just goes to show you that the plumbers house is full of leaks.

InTheKnow,,,

Thanks for the kind words….Some of these guys have really been riding my hump…. And not in a good way…...

Bojan1,,

The violence in Spain, France, Russia and China is not terrorism….Those are Internal disputes and people are simply voicing their opinions through violence…  You’re welcome…And remember that Jesus still loves you even if your head is up your ass….

There are a lot of other places they could have sent him, right?  And the Middle East is not the only place where psychiatrists are needed? And military rigidity is not the only—or even the most sensible—way of dealing with problems?  And was it worth the Hood experience just to make that point clear, among others?

gerard, November 6 at 1:12 pm #

Question:  Knowing this guy’s history, who would be stupid enough to deploy him to the Middle East even after they knew he wanted to be released from that assignment?

Everybody wants to be released from that assignment.  The military does not operate on the principal that all the soldiers can’t wait to leave their familes and go overseas to get shot to pieces.

Wants to not factor into the equation, Gerard.

Question:  Knowing this guy’s history, who would be stupid enough to deploy him to the Middle East even after they knew he wanted to be released from that assignment?

montanawildhack, November 6 at 11:15 am #

“So, I’ll give you that one, “War is a constant state of mankind.”  Well, if that is true then when we go to war it should be for the right reasons and as a last resort”

I will go even further and say that we should abandon war altogether and negotiate our differences. 

The whole world wants peace.  It is really only a few madmen that stir up the rest, mostly for their own gain.  But the rest always seem fairly eager to jump in themselves, that is why I say it is a constant state of man.  He is predisposed to fight.

I am in favor of outlawing all aggression and I am in favor of complete disarmament, worldwide.  But absolutely not unilateral disarmament, because then you are at the mercy of the madmen. 

But there needs to be a police force somewhere to be able to jump in and stop the madman before he does something stupid.  Unfortunately the police become corrupt themselves and start selling more drug than the drug dealers. 

There is little man can do because of the inabiliity of his mind to act in anything but self interest.  It is a universal fault in man, and in my opinion, a good argument against evolution.  Because violent aggression does not favor a perpetuation of the natural state.  It is like nature at war against itself.

Prejudice, prejudice!  It’s not me.  It’s him. No, it’s you.  I am the one who is right. The others are wrong.  It has always been that way.  My people have always been more righter than yours.  Etc. etc.  How silly this is!  And yet we train people into it, and give them guns!  Alas!

I just have to say that montanawildhack, for the most part, has made a very valid point!

Most of the problems that U.S.A. experiences with Moslems worldwide is because of its Judeo-Christian ethic that always finds its foreign policy showing favoritism to Jews and Israel.
As a corollary to that, the foreign policy of the U.S. has been, and continues to be decidedly racist; that is to say, against people of color, and for white people.

This world would be much better off, WITHOUT RELIGION!

We (delusionally) believe that God is on our side… Blah, blah, blah… and that he/she signs off on endless war and other bullshit carried on in God’s name! Unless “God” is the out of control deity (displaying human foibles) described in the Old Testament, we are on our own (and screwed)!

DaveZx3,,

So, I’ll give you that one, “War is a constant state of mankind.”  Well, if that is true then when we go to war it should be for the right reasons and as a last resort…  Our enemy is neither Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran…. It is Israel…. They do not play well with the other children and need to be removed from the sand box…  As I’ve said many times before give the jews a like sized amount of land in the Mojave desert and call it good… The orthodox jews could stay in Palestine and wait for their Messiah…  Many people don’t realize that the true orthodox jews Do Not believe in the current state of Israel…  They believe Israel will not return until the TRUE Messiah comes….  See even the Real Jews believe in what I’m saying…. Peace…

“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire

http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2009/09/25/first-person-shooter/

montanawildhack, November 6 at 9:10 am

I don’t condone war.  I hate war.  But war is a constant state of mankind, and you can deny it if you wish. 

The people are different, the nations are different, the religions are different, but the violence and hatred that rages in mankind and perpetuates war is a constant.  You can see the hatred and intolerance in various posts on this site.  Of course everyone is right in his own mind.  That is mankinds problem.
Everyone is right in their own mind. 

But I will guarantee you one thing, all that sticking your head in the sand is going to do is get your ass blown off.  If you will live to see another day, you are going to have to create some real solutions. 

One of the largest conflicts ever engaged in by men is the effort to rid the world of the Jew, the King of the Jews, and the God of the Jews.  It has been an ongoing effort, unsuccessful so far, not wholly attributable to the US, as we are a relative newcomer.

Good morning Dave Zx3,,

So you were a soldier and in a war??  Well good for you…  That means you were trained to follow orders and kill whomever those who had more shiny stuff on their chest told you to kill….  Who really is the looney bird that fell off the perch ehh Dave Zx3??  Did you fight and kill those evil rice farmers in Vietnam??? Or were you in one of our more recent illegal and immoral wars selling your soul and fighting for Greater Israel????  Jesus H. Christmas you people really give me a pain in the ass….  Why is there Terrorism Dave????? Why why why????  That’s a question rarely asked….  Is there terrorism in Russia Dave???? Is there terrorism in China Dave??? Is there terrorism in Brazil Dave??? Is there terrorism in France???? Is there terrorism in Spain??? (there used to be but remember they got the f__k out of Iraq and now there isn’t)  I could go on and on and on….  These people hate us because we are involved in the Mid east supporting a violent Theocracy—-Israel and those other countries are not…  You’re not really that stupid and believe they hate us because of our freedom are you Dave???  Now go back to cleaning your guns and dreaming of the days when it was legal for you to kill innocent people…  I sincerely hope I’ve answered your queries…

montanawildhack, November 6 at 7:47 am

“Bring our boys home and put them to work on farms picking fruit and vegetables”.  “It’s really that simple”

Only a true simpleton could funnel the outrageous complexities of the world stage down to such an absurd post. 

Picking fruits and vegetables does not keep “our boys” alive.  The people that would like to kill them are right here, training on American soil.  The battle will be fought in our towns and cities, and on the doorsteps to our homes, because we did not have the will to keep it somewhere else. 

A cornerstone of American policy was to keep the enemy far away, (Monroe Doctrine).  It worked for 200+ years, for the most part.  But that day is over.  Chinese recon patrols penetrate our southern border out of Mexico.  Terrorists train and recruit all over this country.  What do you think tomorrow holds?  And what would be your real solution?

Your heart has to be torn in two for the families of returnees.  They survived the war, but were gunned down in the peaceful environment of a processing center.  I cannot imagine what agony they must be going through.

This action by a major who possessed certain religious and cultural ties, underscores the problems inherent within a multi-cultural state. 

A man can be torn apart by conflicts of country and culture, country and ideology, country and religion, etc. 

One should think very hard before joining the military if there are any conflicts in the mind.  And the military should do more checking if conflicts are evident.  Of course this would be seen as profiling, and would be found unconstitutional.

But, as someone who was in war myself, the last thing you need to deal with in a combat situation is whether the guy next to you is really on your side or not. 

This is why agenda people:  gays, ideologues, even some woman, are resisted by the military.  (I am impressed that a brave female first responder was able to be very effective, not because I doubt the capabilities of women, but I have seen many agenda types who melted at the first sign of action.  Thank God this woman was a real soldier, or policeman or whatever)

I am not trying to politicize this incident, because the victims deserve better.  It was done by one lone looney bird who fell off the perch, and no politics should be written into it.  But the military will protect itself from agenda people.  You cannot have double-minded people in battle.

This is such a tragic story….  Tragic because those young heros killed yesterday will not be able to go over to Afghanistan and Iraq and kill innocent young men who mean us no harm…. Seriously folks it’s time to stop the talk.. Stop the useless and endless articles.  End the f____king stupid useless wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and bring the boys home… Let Israel and her nut-case sky god fight their own god damn wars..  Their “brave” soldiers are drinking beer and eating olives at bistros on the Mediterranean sea and our boys are getting wasted…  Bring our boys home and put them to work on farms picking fruit and vegetables… And take away their guns and planes and bombs so they can’t hurt one another… It’s really that simple…