NML—Demand justice over charity and stop supporting people like Obama.

I know that charity makes people feel better, but, the truth is, no one should need bail money Thursday. We should not have to be there at all.

No one should need a Thanksgiving dinner for the homeless—if the Dems were doing their job for the ‘unspoken for” you wouldnt have to “give ” to that organizaton. You would just pay your taxes for a guaranteed income for the everyone, like in the EU.

“Individualism” is exactly what I am trying NOT to promote. The multinationals count on it.

But great ‘Merkin individualists have decided to hang separately as fools. I know you were joking, but I am deadly (literally!) serious about this. And I am certainly not alone. If Dems do not respond, they will figure it out in 2010. Nothing will change for people like me, either in Af-Pak or the uS. In fact, we cant really tell the difference anymore.

KDelphi:

On your bailout. I wouldn’t want to destroy your personal character, rugged individualism and your yankee ingenuity! lol.

I donate what I can to things like PBS, Democracy Now, and the ACLU. I donated 50 turkey dinners to the homeless shelter last winter.

While I didn’t end up voting for him, I did donate to Obama. At least the incessant emails from the white house asking for more and mroe “help” finally stopped after my third demand to take me off of their mailing lists. Then again, it might just be that I labled them as spam in my gmail account.

The sad part is that I’ve put my name in as a volunteer for a number of organizations, such as the Green Party, and never even heard back. Its as if they are an Orwellian ghost conjured jsut to appease the masses through the magical illusion of the internet. Of course, the Green Party doesn’t exist here. Nearly impossible to get 3rd parties going in this, the reddest of red states.

What can you do…

@CT—I see no takers on helping us with bail money or assistance yet.

I rest my case as the Democrats rest yet another session of majority bullshit.

rollzone:

I appreciate the clarification and believe it or not, I share your concerns about deficit spending and international debt. Nor am I a fan of a trumped up requirement to purchase the faulty product that health insurance offers. I argue, though, that a mypoic focus on debt is ultimately detrimental for the following reasons:

1) By all credible accounts and studies, the continued bankruptcy of the American citizen via healthcare costs will, over time, inevitably lead to the bankruptcy of the entire nation. In other words, to do nothing is to seal our fate. It was necessary during WWII for government to sieze control of industry and to control production costs because they were spending at such high levels of GDP. General Dwight Eisenhower said of then Senator Harry Truman that due to his efforts to combat war profiteering, he probably added another 2 Army Divisions to the war effort. Today, we are in a very simliar position and if we don’t take control by getting costs down and expanding affordable access, we will all sink together. If we can get healthcare costs under control, we have a chance to boost tax revenues and begin paying down the debt.

2) Due to the level of debt, we are fast approaching a point where we will have to sacrifice one thing for another. According to Cheney and Wolfowitz, deficits “don’t matter” because they ultimately keep the opposition from ever enacting their agenda. That is why you saw the Republicans spending like drunken sailors at two for one night in Bangkok. So, if health care is now a national necessity, what will we have to sacrifice in order to get it? My answer is to first end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, which are bankrupting this country much faster than health care, and ultimately to get the entire military industrial complex that Eisenhower warned against under control. The second, is to demand that future military expenditures be more evenly distriburted amongst NATO allies. The days of footing the bill while they invest heavily in their own populations must end. Its our turn to invest in our people. If not, we will find ourselves sucked into more and more costly conflicts that require more and more deficit spending.

There is only one way out of this mess. Single payer healthcare that controls costs and grants access to all people that is paid for with tax rates which are commensurate to income. Just as we did in WWII, we should take control of Health Care prfoiteers and “add another two divisions to the fight.”

KDelphi writes:
“The things that progressives are interested in are not revolutinary things. We are asking for things that most of the industrialized world considrs a human right.”

Even the demand that the people’s so-called representatives should have 72 hours of access to the flim-flam they vote on, BEFORE they vote on it, is too much for the Obamanistas.

Remember that EVEN the mostly-dreadful Richard Nixon was in favor of a guaranteed income entitlement for ALL Americans. O’Blabla can’t even bring Himself to mention health care for the poor in His “reform”.

Looking for something other than smiley-face fascism and feel-good flim-flam from the hijacked Democrats is “revolutionary”, it seems.

Hmm. ThomasG manages bold type. Does he do it like this?

rollzone—NML already sited the source of your post. You were very selective in your facts, which leads me to believe that you have an agenda. Thats fine.

—I am not interested (at all) in just pissing people off. The things that progressives are interested in are not revolutinary things. We are asking for things that most of the industrialized world considrs a human right. If the Dems cant even deliver on this, they wll never have my vote again.

Anybody give to mobilize for health care to help bail us out yet? We are there for you too. The Senate Finance Comm Bil is just plain AWFUL. If the Dems dont change it on the Senate floor, they will end up being ashamed of themselves (as they should be now).

The saddest part is that, the Dems give the GOP so much ammunition! “This will raise costs..” and it will! They escalate the war, continue extraordinary rendition, keep promising the gay community things, cur Medicare for seniors (they never shouldve voted in Medicare Advanrtage nor the Rx drug bill in the first place—should be Medicare for All—HR 676)

Fight for the Dem cause! (what is it again??)

While the poor are waiting for health care they can console themselves that they have their life, liberty and happiness with freedom to make the payments on tens of trillions of dollars of CORPORATE WELFARE to Banksters and insuransters; they may be poor, sick, hungry and homeless, but at least they have their life, liberty and happiness with freedom and justice equivalent to all of the rest of the huddled masses of poor, sick, hungry, and homeless citizens making payments through taxes in support of CORPORATE WELFARE for the WEALTHY, the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Corporate Elite.

We all know that God wants us to support the Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Corporate Elite, so we are all content with “pie in the sky by and by” and know that life, liberty, and happiness with freedom and justice for all IS to have nothing but our dreams, ——to be poor, sick, hungry, and homeless——we are all good Evangelical Christians, so we support the worthy Right-Wing Conservative EXTREMIST Corporate Elite to the exclusion of our own human needs——it’s all good because that is what our Right-Wing Conservative God of Fascism wants us to do——it’s all good—we will endure whatever— so long as we don’t have to give up our life, liberty, and happiness with freedom and justice for all.

KDelphi writes:
“no man’s land—It occurs to me , that, doing that “at a local level” will alow many, many people to die in the meantime. Id rather die trying to fight it, personally.”

For less-committed folks who’re up for endless evenings of unbelievable tedium, all the Democratic Central Committees at the county level could be over-turned in a trice this year (2010, actually): most of them run with fewer members than they’re allotted, and the seats are rarely contested. However, it’s a simple matter to force ALL of them to election, if one simply goes to the county courthouse for nomination papers.

This might not put an end to the former Democrats’ wicked flim-flam, but it’d sure peeve em off.

hello again. many times i am interrupting personal communiques amongst comrades, and i apologise. i do not take the time to make clear points, and it deflects dialogue, again i am sorry. my remark about the fact book was an attempt only to determine a real number of working Americans that will have to pay $200/week into a combo health/climate bill simultaneously going through Congress ($175/week>health; $25/week>climate). the upper 20% of working Americans are the middle and upper class. 80% of ‘working’ America will have to shoulder $200/week out of their paycheck to provide sufficient tax revenue. that being impossible, this debacle is dependent upon selling paper (deficit spending) to Japan, because China (with the largest gold and foreign exchange supply) strikes traumatic nerve responses when raising this issue. we cannot afford all the new netbook, ipod, robot toys, and slim televisions coming out of Japan- so perhaps it will be Brazil with the new Soros oil deal that will be brokered to buy all this worthless American paper. all i was trying to say is there is no way Americans can afford more taxes, and here is the government going ahead full steam irregardless. where is the full disclosure? by the way, Ben and Jerry believe the military expenditure is closer to @ of the GDP when all things are considered. and the insurance companies are not where i would be sitting in, it would be at the Capitol.

noman’sland—I have no money to give. I think I noted one of the groups I am working with and gave a website…wanna “feel our pain” and give us some bail money? Hardly any rich liberals have.

http://mobilizeforhealthcare.org/

The Democratic party has not done a single thing in support of the poor and working classes since LBJ—they are intelligent enough to see that the direction in this country, under BOTH parties, has been in the direction of aristocracy.

The Democratic party is the party of Wall St now…one always hopes that those they admire wil not sell out when they get the power—but they always do. Can you tell me why that is?

I would honestly rather see Dems hold all the power for one session and do some things right, rather than being re-elected and doing the bi-partisan nothing. I would rather see Obama as a one term president (and folk hero) from doing the right thing, ie war, health care, gay rights, etc. than to see him re-elected as a milquetoast neo-liberal.

KDelphi:

If it weren’t for feeling others’ pain, I would still be conservative.

I think liberals are one of the most unorganized political movements in the history of humanity. We come here and comment on someone else’s comment to feel as though we’re actually doing something. Its a good mechanism to vent and relieve some pent up frustration, but let’s not fool ourselves. We’re not convincing anyone but ourselves here. The following is a list of tangible actions that each person can take to have an impact greater than civil disobedience alone(IMO).

-donate time/money to your favored cause(s)/venues
-host a discussion or “documentary night” once/month
-vote your conscience
-get involved locally and regionally
-share information
-begin building an informed network
-identify groups with similar interests and bring them together

nomansland—yes, but all I see among (neo) liberals is blogging and bitching about, say, health care reform.

I realize that not everyone can risk arrest for single payer health care, (No one would have to, if Obama had the cajones to do what he knows is right)you would think , with all these “concerned Dems”, more would show up than 10 or so. Even a call for bail money or legal advice lies empty, most of the time.

All “liberals ” want to do is talk and stick up for Democrats, who shed them as soon as they are elected.

Obama IS the Democratic Party’s “reviolution”—its the best they can do. If it wasnt they would have done better than Clinton/Gore/Kerry/Obaama.
lol—I see that I had to add (ic) to the end of Democrat Party, me , who used to correct everyone for saying “democrat party”—you guys wont even stick up for ou own name, when Frank Luntz does a poll and finds out ‘democrat party” sounds worse to people—-sad.
Thats not good enough for me.

What are you guys going to do for an encore, in 2010? Lose and feel much more comfortable with excuses for doing nothing again…Democrats piss me off more than honest, sociopathic GOP.

You guys should stop “feeling others’ pain” and do something.

No_Man’s_Land, October 12 at 5:50pm,

You are on the right path; keep on trudging and your pilgrimage will bear fruit.

It is time for a change and if we all do our part—change will come.

Good point. The good news is that social and political movements don’t take as long to manifest these days. Not too long ago, the only way for you and I to meet and talk would most likely have been at an organized event. Knowledge, information (and disinformation) are spreading much faster

Until the internet came around, the anti-choice movement was an obscure movement linked to terrorist bombings of clinics. Once email/interent came around, they gained momentum nearly overnight and shortly after you saw the Republican “contract with America” retake the congress and then the presidency—election shenanigans aside.

no man’s land—It occurs to me , that, doing that “at a local level” will alow many, many people to die in the meantime. Id rather die trying to fight it, personally.

The CIA likely tracks domestic trends, but that still resides mainly with the FBI and NSA. CIA is mostly foreign intel. Domestic trends are tracked though. For example, last year the NSA released a study about hate groups on the rise and predicted a concurrent rise in things like miltias and hate crimes. That is also why the military is sworn protect the consitution against enemies “foreign and domestic.”

I wish I had the answer for you. My sense is that the solution lies first in reforming campaign finance and secondly to open up the system to alternative parties. I’m afraid all of that must start at the local level and filter upward. It will not happen from the top down. You get those things and you have a chance to save demoracy.

We also need to diversify media ownership. When important stories and concpets are not only patently ignored in the media, but impeded by them, I’d say before anything else can happen, we have to fix the quality of information that people use to make decisions.

Above all, protect the internet…

Noman’s land—then, what keeps them (the govt) from doing it here? I emean, with the “middle class’s” standing these days, dont you think that they use it to prepare for, and prevent, revolution here?

What is the solution, then? You decry Third parties, and what democrats do. So, what do we do? Most civilized countries have more than one party and proportional representation. They have health care, better education systems, etc. And less military.

Why should we hve to settle for this crappy state of affairs? Democrats are too bought and paid for to change.

KDelphi writes:
“A Third (or Fourth or Fifth) Party could come out of this??”

I don’t believe this: the former Democrats have shown again and again that their operatives can destabilize/destroy any “left” party—Peace and Freedom, the Green Party, whoever.

When Clinton’s “welfare reform”—which effectively orphaned millions of underclass children, with results we see every day on the evening news—was a mere pilot project in California, I was among those who worked against it for YEARS.

The Democrats’ health care “reform” hype (Oblabla Himself now speaks only of “insurance reform”), inlcuding the bleating about “bipartisanship”—by which politicians of either party ALWAYS mean, it seems, “good for rich people”—sounds eerily similar to the “welfare reform” hype.

KDelphi:

Post below meant for you as well.

What I find so intersting is that their analysis of the US is right in line with a lot of progressive thinking. I mean, you don’t see them saying that declining edcuation levels are because God is out of school. Instead, they see it as an economic indicator, much like we do.

No. Factbook doesn’t get into should or could. Tends only to state what it considers facts.

The CIA tracks all of this, quite honestly, because at the strategic level this is the type of data used to determine policy or to try and figure why country A may have decided to invade country B. For instance, a country with a rising death rate and a decling birth rate may decide that its better to invade a neighbor now rather than wait if war seems an inevitabilty. Such was the logic of WWI in many cases (back then warmaking ability ws largely determined by the number of soldiers that could be fielded.) Same is true with natural resources.

NoMan’sLand (went to the link, thanks) someone is very selective with their stats!—why is the CIA covering such things?? Is it projecting, so as to know how many private mercenaries to hire to keep the “mob down” or what?

To think that Dubya looked at this, in, say, 2003,and called for a bank bailout and an increased military budget is cause enough to hang him.

Does the CIA mention any way to slow this trend?

@CT—I voted for Clinton, twice. I was working for a govt social sevice agency and saw what his NAFTA, “welfare-reform” and other neoliberal decisions did “for’ the poor and working classes. I just decided I couldnt do it anymore. I voted for Gore, but, I knew who Dubya was (my brother in law went to school wirh him) It was an anti-W vote, although I think, Gore was much nore progressive than Obaam is.

Kerry was such a farce, that moveon.org even circulated that video(I still have it!wait, no—-threw it out last week!), “Kerry..reasons to vote, reason to care”—lol!! If they have to tell us….I did vote for Kerry, but it was anti-Bush. Im not going to vote anti-anything anymore and I didnt vote for Obama.

If I write in someone who doesnt win, at least I dont have to feel like I was part of the disease, right?

A Third (or Fourth or Fifth) Party could come out of this??

rollzone:

Not sure where in the CIA fact book you got your information but it does say the below. My hunch is that your stats came from a chain email—most likely the same person who sent you “The Clinton Body Count,” “Obama’s Death Panels,” “A Prince in Nairobi wants to give you 5 million dollars,” and my personal favorite “You’ve been blessed! Send this to 50 more people and you’ll get into heaven!”

CIA Factbook (My link is below, but it will mean actually having to read through the information to find it.)

Note: Most of these stats are from your boy, GW.

United States.

Economy overview:
Here’s an interesting blurb or two…

“The onrush of technology largely explains the gradual development of a “two-tier labor market” in which those at the bottom lack the education and the professional/technical skills of those at the top and, more and more, fail to get comparable pay raises, health insurance coverage, and other benefits. Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households. The war in March-April 2003 between a US-led coalition and Iraq, and the subsequent occupation of Iraq, required major shifts in national resources to the military.”

also

“Long-term problems include inadequate investment in economic infrastructure, rapidly rising medical and pension costs of an aging population, sizable trade and budget deficits, and stagnation of family income in the lower economic groups. The merchandise trade deficit reached a record $819 billion in 2007 and $821 billion in 2008.”

Public Debt 60.8% of GDP (2007 est.)

Industrial Production Growth Rate: -2%
country comparison to the world: 152

Exports: $1.291 trillion (2008 est.)
Imports: $2.112 trillion (2008 est.)

External Debt: $13.64 trillion (31 December 2008

Military Expenditures: 4.06% of GDP (2005 est.)

Death Rate: 8.38 deaths/1,000 population (July 2009 est.) country comparison to the world: 102

Infant Mortality Rate: total: 6.26 deaths/1,000 live births country comparison to the world: 180

Life Expectancy at Birth: total population: 78.11 years country comparison to the world: 50

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/us.html

KDelphi writes:
“@CT—I was a reg Dem for years. My conscience wont let me do it anymore. The media removed Dr. Dean sure as the nose on my face. He just wasnt corporate enough.”

Well ... the media helped the Kerry people remove Dr. Dean. It was a Democratic Party coup, really.

Not to worry: I didn’t vote for Obama (or, before that, for Bill Clinton).

rollzone—the CIA is estimating our health care costs?? Why? You should really post a name or link when you give figures like that. I would like to know what thy are based on. Is it the fricking Lewin Group, sponsored by Union Socialist State of America—I am a Socialist, and believe me, we are not even heading in that direction or I would be thrilled! Try to make , at least, some sense.

@CT—I was a reg Dem for years. My conscience wont let me do it anymore. The media removed Dr. Dean sure as the nose on my face. He just wasnt corporate enough.

I will be participating in civil disobedience at an insurance industry headquarters on Thursday. Anyone that can help, whether with money, legal advice or themselves, please go to:
http://mobilizeforhealthcare.org/

Protests are being held in LA, NY, Cleveland, NJ and others are being formed everyday.

hello. passing health whatever at $1 trillion over 10 years = $100 billion/ year per working individual ( CIA fact book claims 140 million- will be 120 million when this is passed before Christmas) = $9000/year per working individual = $170/week out of every body’s paycheck. the nonexistent middle class can maybe afford this, but they make up less than 18% of the workforce. when you add in ‘cap and trade’ = $200/week out of every body’s paycheck = Union States of Socialist America (USSA). we will be officially working for the government. go get your flu shot and be grateful- it removes your hunger comrades.

KDelphi writes:
“Youre right—I keep trying to expose what this bill will do to the poor, but , apparently the comfortable do not care. Try to get us to care next time you want us to vote Democratic.”

Dr. Dean should have been president in 2004—he was the people’s choice, and he’d still be president now. He was brought down by saboteur John Kerry (who then brought Obama to the 2004 convention, before Kerry threw the election).

I believe it’s Dean—not Obama, who even those who are still going along surely can see is a wicked, wavering, narcissistic goose—who can call people into the streets to bring down this fake “reform”.

I’m registered Democrat, so I always prefer the idea of taking back the Democratic Party from the corporate right which now runs all the parties. But it may be necessary to destroy this Potemkin village, to save it. :^)

@CT—being stuck on Medicaid (youre right—I didnt get a penny of my inheritance nor my PERS pension—most people do not know that—and I never can, or they would take it), and working for years with people on Medicaidm I can tell you that everything you say is correct, and more.

My last neurologist was drunker than HELL! “Report her” -You cant! You cant sue if they cut off the wrong leg! It is hell, but I’m afriad to return to work part time and lose my crappy coverage. So, no one saves money , no one gets well and no one gives a damn about Medicaid…

Youre right—I keep trying to expose what this bill will do to the poor, but , apparently the comfortable do not care. Try to get us to care next time you want us to vote Democratic.

The Democrats simply do not represent the poor or working classes in this country. They will lose in 2010 and they deserve it.

KDelphi writes:
“@CT—most poor “Merkins dont even get Medicaid, although the drs to chose from and coverage is horrible. It is like a final solution. But, when you have a pre-existing condition and you are poor, you have no choice.”

There are next to NO doctors who actually accept Medicaid patients—the truly insidious thing is that there are thousands of non-profit “community clinics” whose raison d’etre is to churn Medicaid accounts and slurp up federal funds. Every one of the non-profits has a highly-paid director, controller, and less well compensated employees. Every one of the non-profits belongs to an endless chain of umbrella organizations.

It sucks, except for non-profit honchos who don’t mind living well from facilitating such a system.

KDelphi writes:
“@CT—most poor “Merkins dont even get Medicaid, although the drs to chose from and coverage is horrible. It is like a final solution. But, when you have a pre-existing condition and you are poor, you have no choice.”

I earnestly believe there is NOTHING more important, in this “reform” flim-flam, than exposing the hell of Medicaid—the particulars are unknown to most of the public, and apparently to many of the Congress as well.

The poor—and there are going to be a lot MORE poor people, there are thousands more every day—are not even being discussed in this charade. That’s a REALLY bad sign.

Please understand that I’m not dissing poor people for using Medicaid. People between 55 snd 65, though—who if they’re looking for medical care, probably need something more focused than a tetanus shot or whatever—are in particular danger from Medicaid, because of the Estate Benefits Recovery Act (part of Clinton’s over-ballyhooed “balanced budget”), in addition to its sadistic strictures on actual medical care.

Many poor people do own SOMEthing for the government to seize from their survivors.

Meanwhile, for the Oblabla Democrats to pretend that CUTS to Medicaid is going to provide a lot of the “savings” by which they intend to prop up “reform” for the insured middle classes and profits for the corporate class, and AT THE SAME TIME refuse to talk about what Medicaid is, or how many people DIE from it at considerable expense, is ludicrous and hateful.

Of course we want Single Payer. Which means, at the moment, the Weiner Amendment. If the so-called Democrats can’t DO this NOW, the poor and friends of the poor might as well turn this bad-apple cart over NOW.

noman’sland—I dont really understand the question, but, yes it will be a blessing if it results in the Senate not passing a bill that would be a giant subsidy to the death insurance industry. Unfortunately, BuacASS and Obama will probably just go behind closed doors and cut another deal with the devil, like they always do.

@CT—most poor “Merkins dont even get Medicaid, although the drs to chose from and coverage is horrible. It is like a final solution. But, when you have a pre-existing condition and you are poor, you have no choice.

That is why we need the Wiener Amendment or HR 676 (Conyers , Kucinich) . If HR 3200 is the best we can do, they should just leave it alone. It could make things worse.

KDelphi

Is the health/death indsutry so stupid as to announce a rate hike before its passed? Seems like a blessing to me.

The story of Max BaucAASS and the death insurnance indsutry or medical industrial complex: (which has now announced they would raise costs under his “plan”—lol—what did you except!!)

Max BaucASS found a rattlesnake who had been hit by a car. It was dying. He took it in, nursed it back to health , and when he went to set it free, it bit him. As he lay dying, he cried, out “Snake, how could you! I saved your life! I took care of you! How could you bite me!”

The snake replied, “You knew I was a snake you dumbass bitch!” (snake’s words..lol)

Damn travesty…

There is whole other side to this debate that no is talking about either. The food supply. 5/6 of our economy ruins our health while the reaming 1/6 gets rich denying us care.

Really good interview about this at Democracy Now.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/5/14/omnivores_dilemma_author_michael_pollans_new

are you a teabagger, johannes?

johannes writes:
“They have other plans for the poor Americans.”

The semi-final solution of Medicaid? Whee.

President Obama should consider the source of advise from his DLC Republican Lite Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel who is not concerned about the 70% MAJORITY Common Population at all.

This is the flaw in any health care reform plan.  I do not know anyone who does not have health insurance because he or she chooses.  I know plenty of people who simply can not afford health insurance for themselves.  Forcing people to buy health insurance and deferring the government assistance to help the poorest among is simply the latest salvo in the class war being waged by the rich elite.

I’ve said it before, but I pay over $400.00 monthly for my portion of my employer-provided benefits.  I’m lucky that I make a decent living, but this is still a substantial portion of my income.  Someone who works for minimum wage could not afford that.  And if you couple in that most companies that employ lower wage workers (retail and fast food, for example) probably won’t pay a dime toward the benefits, the actual out of pocket costs for these individuals will be even higher. 

I see health insurance looking a lot like car insurance.  As long as you pay your premiums and never use your benefits, you’ll get by ok (well, the best you can while being bled to death by the insurance parasites).  If you do get sick, the insurance company may or may not pay your claim and you’ll see your your premiums skyrocket.  Can you say health insurance adjusters?

They have other plans for the poor Americans.