Rodger Lemonde,

And, I suspect there are a bunch of them in the Noble EXTREME Conservative Republican Party and the EXTREME Conservatives/Moderates of the Democratic Party as well, you know the Nearly Noble ones that do not represent the 70% MAJORITY COMMON POPULATION anymore.

Night-Gaunt, et al,

archeon of thrace asked for history, that is the history that I have, there could be more, but that is enough for me.  As far as I am concerned Jesus existed, neither Moslems or Judaism deny Jesus existed. 

It is impossible to perfectly prove that someone alive exists, much less after 2009 years.  If you don’t want to believe Jesus existed, that is entirely up to you, I was asked to show historical proof, if you don’t choose to accept the proof, that is up to you.

What next is some one going to cut and past the bible into this thread? The atheists here don’t care about your invisible friend. The faithful believe what they think they believe. Neither is going to convert anyone.

Thank you MarthaA for taking up so much space including repeating #2 to make your point by pushing everyone else out and pissing me an others off with your lack of care. Overload is the game eh? I won’t do it back to you.

No one ever said that “Christians” didn’t exist just that a personage named Joshuah or Jesus in the Grk lived at that time and performed prodigies of nature. But then Jesus was a common name and there were others who were walking around and showing off their sorcery and even raising the dead too. So?

Both Krishna and Jesus have much in common from being born from a virgin to dying a martyr. So?

archeon of thrace,

(Part 1 of 9)

“The existence of Jesus is not a fact.
There is not mention of him in any of the historical documents of the day.”
The following is evidence:

THE HISTORICAL JESUS - non Christian proof of Jesus’ existence

THE WITNESS OF JOSEPHUS (37-101 A.D.)
Flavius Josephus is regarded as the premier first century Jewish historian. His writings have been quoted by hundreds of authors, including many of the world’s most respected scholars. Josephus came from a priestly family and became a Pharisee at the age of 19. He was appointed Commander of the Jewish army under Roman occupation. After the rebellion by the Jews, Josephus was captured by the Roman general Vespasian. During this time, Josephus became a great historian.

Although Josephus lived after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, he was closely associated with the experiences of that generation. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus makes a statement that is contested by those who reject the existence of a historical Jesus. Here, Josephus writes:

Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as received the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day. (Book 18, ch. 3)
This statement by Josephus has been the center of considerable debate and controversy. Those who reject its authenticity contend that these words were not written by Josephus but rather were added by the Christian church in an attempt to strengthen its argument that Jesus was real and that He was the Christ.

There is, however, a credible authority which can shed considerable light on this issue. William Whiston is a scholar who translated the works of Josephus into English. Whiston provides the following observation concerning the authenticity of Josephus’ words regarding Jesus.

Since we meet with several important testimonies in Josephus, the Jewish historian, concerning John the Baptist, the forerunner of Jesus of Nazareth, concerning Jesus of Nazareth himself, and concerning James the Just the brother of Jesus of Nazareth; and since the principal testimony which is concerning Jesus of Nazareth himself has of late been greatly questioned by many, and for me who has ever declared my firm belief that these testimonies were genuine, to set down fairly some of the original evidence and citations I have met with in the first fifteen centuries concerning them; and then to make proper observations upon that evidence, for the reader’s more complete satisfaction. (The Works of Flavius Josephus, Appendix p. 815)
Whiston went on to explain that after exhaustive examination of Josephus’ writings, he concluded that the texts being questioned were, in fact, genuine. He drew this conclusion because their style was consistent with that found in Josephus’ other writings.

archeon of thrace,

(Part 2 of 9)

Whiston also provided a list of highly respected historians who quoted the writings of Josephus and considered them authentic regarding John the Baptist, James, and Jesus Christ. These authors included Tacitus in 110, Justin Martyr in 147, Origin in 230, Eusebius in 324, Ambrose in 360, Hieronym in 400, Isidorus in 410, Cassiddorus in 510, Anastasius in 740, and Johan in 850.

Whiston further pointed out that it would be impossible to have such a volume of honorable and accurate testimony regarding John the Baptist and James, whose lives were predicated on the life of Jesus, and then refuse to accept same testimony regarding Jesus who was of greater importance than the other two. (p. 819)

JOSEPHUS’ POSITION REGARDING CHRISTIANITY
Those who contend that Josephus’ reference to Jesus is spurious do so because the words appear to convey that Josephus embraced Jesus as the Christ. However, William Whiston explains that such a conclusion is a mistake.

‘This was Christ’, or [the] Christ, does not mean that this Jesus was the Christ of God, or the true Messiah of the Jews; but that this Jesus was distinguished from all others of that name, of which there were not a few, as mentioned by Josephus himself, by the addition of the other name of Christ; or that this person was no other than he whom all the world knew by the name of Jesus Christ, and his followers by the name of Christians. (The Works of the Jews, Appendix 819)
Whiston went on to explain that Josephus was not conveying his belief in Christ but rather that Christians were named from “this Christ.” According to Whiston, if Josephus was a true believer, this passage would have required a much fuller explanation. Additionally, it is important to understand that Josephus wrote for both the Greeks and Romans and that this particular audience would not have understood who he was referring to if he simply used the name “Jesus.” Therefore, according to Whiston, Josephus used the term “Christ,” not to convince others that Jesus was the Messiah, but only to differentiate Him from other historical figures with the same name. Whiston then added that all other historians who wrote for the next several centuries understood that Josephus was not a believer.

Josephus’ approach was similar to that of Pontius Pilate during the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. According to the scriptures, Pilate ordered a sign to be posted upon Jesus’ cross. The sign bore the words: “This is Jesus, king of the Jews.” The fact that Pilate ordered this sign did not mean he believed Jesus was the king of the Jews. He only placed it there because he was provoked by the Jewish leaders who brought charges against Jesus. These leaders wanted the sign to read that Jesus claimed to be king of the Jews. However, because of his exasperation with these Jewish leaders, Pilate refused to have these words changed (Jn. 19:19-22).

archeon of thrace,

(Part 2 of 9)

WILLIAM WHISTON (cont.)
Whiston also provided a list of highly respected historians who quoted the writings of Josephus and considered them authentic regarding John the Baptist, James, and Jesus Christ. These authors included Tacitus in 110, Justin Martyr in 147, Origin in 230, Eusebius in 324, Ambrose in 360, Hieronym in 400, Isidorus in 410, Cassiddorus in 510, Anastasius in 740, and Johan in 850.

Whiston further pointed out that it would be impossible to have such a volume of honorable and accurate testimony regarding John the Baptist and James, whose lives were predicated on the life of Jesus, and then refuse to accept same testimony regarding Jesus who was of greater importance than the other two. (p. 819)

JOSEPHUS’ POSITION REGARDING CHRISTIANITY
Those who contend that Josephus’ reference to Jesus is spurious do so because the words appear to convey that Josephus embraced Jesus as the Christ. However, William Whiston explains that such a conclusion is a mistake.

‘This was Christ’, or [the] Christ, does not mean that this Jesus was the Christ of God, or the true Messiah of the Jews; but that this Jesus was distinguished from all others of that name, of which there were not a few, as mentioned by Josephus himself, by the addition of the other name of Christ; or that this person was no other than he whom all the world knew by the name of Jesus Christ, and his followers by the name of Christians. (The Works of the Jews, Appendix 819)
Whiston went on to explain that Josephus was not conveying his belief in Christ but rather that Christians were named from “this Christ.” According to Whiston, if Josephus was a true believer, this passage would have required a much fuller explanation. Additionally, it is important to understand that Josephus wrote for both the Greeks and Romans and that this particular audience would not have understood who he was referring to if he simply used the name “Jesus.” Therefore, according to Whiston, Josephus used the term “Christ,” not to convince others that Jesus was the Messiah, but only to differentiate Him from other historical figures with the same name. Whiston then added that all other historians who wrote for the next several centuries understood that Josephus was not a believer.

Josephus’ approach was similar to that of Pontius Pilate during the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. According to the scriptures, Pilate ordered a sign to be posted upon Jesus’ cross. The sign bore the words: “This is Jesus, king of the Jews.” The fact that Pilate ordered this sign did not mean he believed Jesus was the king of the Jews. He only placed it there because he was provoked by the Jewish leaders who brought charges against Jesus. These leaders wanted the sign to read that Jesus claimed to be king of the Jews. However, because of his exasperation with these Jewish leaders, Pilate refused to have these words changed (Jn. 19:19-22).

archeon of thrace,

(Part 3 of 9)

AN ARABIC TRANSLATION OF JOSEPHUS
It is important to understand that there are other manuscripts concerning the works of Josephus. An Arabic manuscript has been found and translated which makes the controversial passages found in Josephus easier to understand. This Arabic translation reads as follows.

At this time, there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.
Here, the translation adds clarity to the meaning of Josephus’ words. Based on this translation, Josephus is simply recounting that Jesus was a good man and his followers taught that He was resurrected.

THE BABYLONIAN TALMUD
The works of Josephus are not the only Jewish writings that identify Jesus of Nazareth. The Babylonian Talmud includes a section in which Jesus is mentioned by the Jews to have been hanged from a stake on the eve of the Passover.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor, he was hanged on the eve of the Passover. (The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin, 43a, p. 281)

THE TESTIMONY OF OTHER WRITERS
In addition to TACITUS: (55-117 A.D.) , Suetonius (69-140 A.D.), Celsus (2nd Century),Julian the Apostate (332-363 A.D.), Clement of Rome (100 A.D.), Ignatius of Antioc (50-107 A.D.), Quadratus (125 A.D.), Aristides (138-161 A.D.), Phlegon (1st Century), and Josephus, other prominent historical figures make mention of the biblical Jesus.

THALLUS
Thallus wrote about Mediterranean history during the middle of the first century. Although there are only fragments of his writings today, one such fragment relates what happened at the crucifixion.

On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down.
This description of events surrounding the crucifixion is totally consistent with the gospel record. Consider the words of Matthew.

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour… And, behold, the veil of the Temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent… (Mt. 27:45, 51)

JUSTIN MARTYR
Justin Martyr was a second century philosopher and theologian. His parents were pagans; however, after a study of the Old and New Testaments, Justin Martyr converted to Christianity. He was executed during the reign of Emperor Marcus Aurelius because he refused to offer sacrifices to the pagan gods.

Justin Martyr wrote about 150 A.D. In one of his writings, he explained that the events of Christ’s crucifixion could be validated by the report of Pontius Pilate.

archeon of thrace,

(Part 4 of 9)

JUSTIN MARTYR (cont.)

And the expression, “they pierced my hands and my feet” was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain in the “Acts of Pontius Pilate.” (First Apology XXXV)
Although the “Acts of Pontius Pilate” referred to by Justin Martyr is no longer in existence, it was also referred to by Tertullian. Both Tertullian and Justin Martyr believed that this was an official Roman document.

It is interesting to note that there were two archives kept in ancient Rome. One consisted of the minutes of senatorial meetings; the other consisted of correspondence sent to the emperor from various parts of the empire. Any correspondence from Pontius Pilate to Tiberius would unquestionably belong to this second archive.

THE HISTORICAL JESUS
In spite of the early secular world’s hostility toward Christianity, there exist many historical documents to verify that the biblical Jesus actually lived. Further, these documents prove that his followers believed very exact details concerning His life and teachings as well as His crucifixion and resurrection. Few ancient historical figures can boast of the amount of material that Jesus of Nazareth had written about Him. In addition to the gospels, there is the book of Acts as well as numerous epistles. On top of all the Biblical evidence, sits a crown of numerous historical documents. These documents are totally consistent with the writings of the New Testament.

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
A Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

Whether it was the writings of Tacitus, Suetonius, Phlegon, Origin, Thallus, Justin Martyr, Josephus, or even Pontius Pilate, the existence of the Biblical Jesus is unimpeachable. Jesus of Nazareth did live and His life had a powerful impact on the course of history.

JOSEPHUS: (37-101 A.D.)
Josephus was born in Jerusalem only four years after Jesus’ crucifixion. He was an eyewitness to much of what he recorded in the first century A.D. Josephus mentions many events and people from the Gospels. Josephus was an Orthodox Jew who was commissioned by the Romans to write a history of the Jewish people and Rome up until that point.

archeon of thrace,

(Part 5 of 9)

JOSEPHUS: (37-101 A.D.) (cont.)

Mentions Jesus: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Mentions John the Baptist and Herod: Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.”

Mentions James, the half-brother of Jesus: Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 19.

“Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done.”

TACITUS: (55-117 A.D.)
Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.)
Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worship Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries.

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

archeon of thrace,

(Part 6 of 9)

BABYLONIAN TALMUD: (Completed in the 6th Century A.D.)
The Babylonian Talmud is a Rabbinic commentary on the Jewish scriptures (Tanach: Old Testament). They are a look into what a hostile source was saying about Jesus. They couldn’t deny his miracles so they claim that it was sorcery rather than admit to what was a known fact. They also admit that Yeshu (Hebrew for Jesus) was hanged (Crucified: Luke 23:39, Galatians 3:13).

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery (an admission of his miracles) and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!”

The Babylonian Talmud, vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a.

LUCIAN: (120-180 A.D.)
A Greek satirist that spoke scornfully of Christ and Christians, affirming that they were real and historical people, never saying that they were fictional characters.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13.

LETTER OF MARA BARSARAPION: (73 A.D.)
Mara Bar-Serapion was a Syrian who lived in the first century A.D. He wrote a letter to his son Serapion that mentions the Jews who killed their King. The letter is now in the possession of the British Museum.

“What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?...After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

THALLUS: (52 A.D.)
One of the first secular writers that mentioned Christ. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. Unfortunately, his writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus, a Christian who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun (Luke 23:44-45).

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

PHLEGON: (1st Century)
A secular historian wrote a history named, “Chronicles.” This original work has been lost, Julius Africanus preserved a small fragment in his writings. Phlegon mentions the eclipse (Matthew 27:45) during the crucifixion of Jesus.

MarthaA is there a reason for this? I don’t see your point and you are wasting a lot of space in doing it. We already know the savagery of humans.

It doesn’t prove that Christianity is benevolent or that Jesus was an all around good guy and rebel.

You forgot to start at #1.

archeon of thrace,

(Part 7 of 9)

PHLEGON: (1st Century) (cont.)

“During the time of Tiberius Caesar an eclipse of the sun occurred during the full moon.”

Africanus, Chronography, 18:1.

SUETONIUS: (69-140 A.D.)
A Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. He refers to Christ and Christians and the “disturbances” caused by them, namely not worshipping idols and loving all, including their tormentors.

“Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome].” Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D.

Life of Claudius, 25:4.

In another work Suetonius wrote about the the fire which devastated Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians and exacted a heavy punishment upon them, among them covering them with pitch and burning them alive in his gardens.

“Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.”

Lives of the Caesars, 26.2

CELSUS: (2nd Century)
Criticizes the Gospels, unknowingly reinforces the authors and the content, he alludes to 80 different quotes in the Bible. Admits that the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the 2nd century.

JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.)
Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark: “As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, “You have conquered, O Galilean,” referring to Jesus Christ.

CLEMENT OF ROME: (100 A.D.)
Clement affirms the Resurrection, Gospels and that Jesus was sent to earth by God to take away our sins.

“Clement was the fourth bishop of Rome, the first being Peter. Did he know Peter and Paul? It is completely possible that those two Spirit-filled men taught him. Clement even wrote a letter to the Corinthian church that echoed the teachings of the apostles.”

Ignatius of Antioch: (50-107 A.D.)

Disciple of the apostles Peter, Paul, and John, who was martyred for his faith in Jesus. He was obviously convinced that Jesus really had lived and that Jesus was all that the apostles has said He was.

“...nearness to the sword is nearness to God; to be among the wild beasts is to be in the arms of God; only let it be in the name of Jesus Christ. I endure all things that I may suffer together with him, since he who became perfect man strengthens me…We have not only to be called Christians, but to be Christians.”

While the emperor Trajan was on a visit to Asia Minor, he arrested Ignatius. When the bishop confessed his faith in Christ, the Emperor sent him in chains to Rome to die. He was hustled to the arena at once and thrown to two fierce lions who immediately devoured him.

QUADRATUS: (125 A.D.)
Bishop of Athens and a disciple of the apostles. Church historian Eusebius has preserved the only work that we have from Quadratus.

“The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when he had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived in our times.”

Eusebius, IV, III

EPISTLE OF BARNABAS: (130-38 A.D.)
Mentions the Resurrection, miracles, content of the Gospels and the crucifixion of Jesus.

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.)
Aristides was a second-century Christian believer and philosopher from Athens. This portion of his defense of Christianity was addressed to the Roman Emperor Antonius Pius, who reigned from 138-161 A.D.

archeon of thrace,

(Part 8 of 9)

ARISTIDES: (138-161 A.D.) (cont.)

“The Son of the most high God, revealed by the Holy Spirit, descended from heaven, born of a Hebrew Virgin. His flesh he received from the Virgin, and he revealed himself in the human nature as the Son of God. In his goodness which brought the glad tidings, he has won the whole world by his life-giving preaching…He selected twelve apostles and taught the whole world by his mediatorial, light-giving truth. And he was crucified, being pierced with nails by the Jews; and he rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He sent the apostles into all the world and instructed all by divine miracles full of wisdom. Their preaching bears blossoms and fruits to this day, and calls the whole world to illumination.”

Carey, “Aristides,” 68.

HEGESIPPUS: (2 Century)
Eusebius draws the conclusion that Hegesippus was a Jew that wrote five books called, “Memoirs.” Only fragments remain of his original work in the writings of Eusebius. They show that Hegesippus traveled extensively trying to determine if the stories of Jesus and the apostles were true. He found that they they were accurate, even in the troubled church in Corinth.
“The Corinthian church continued in the true doctrine until Primus became bishop. I mixed with them on my voyage to Rome and spent several days with the Corinthians, during which we were refreshed with the true doctrine. On arrival at Rome I pieced together the succession down to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus, Anicetus being succeeded by Soter and he by Eleutherus. In every line of bishops and in every city things accord with the preaching of the Law, the Prophets, and the Lord.”

Eusebius, The History of the Church, 9.22.2.

TRAJAN: (53-117 A.D.)
Trajan is a Roman Emperor who wrote a letter [see letter] in response to the Governor of Asia Minor, Pliny the Younger. Pliny needed advice in dealing with “Christians” who renounced their belief in Jesus due to fear of torture and execution.

MACROBIUS: (4th-5th Century)
Pascal (Pensees) mentions a quote of Augustus Caesar as an evidence to the murder of the 7-20 male babies (this is based on the population of Bethlehem in 4-6 B.C., which was 700-1,000 people) by King Herod in Bethlehem (Matthew 2:16).

King Herod heard that a king was to be born and his fear and mental instability caused him to kill these male children under two years of age. King Herod killed his Wife, mother in law, and three sons. This is in character with his life of murder and paranoia. King Herod’s reign was described by his enemies as, “He stole to the throne like a fox, ruled like a tiger, and died like a dog.”

Saturnalia, lib. 2, ch.4.

HADRIAN: (106-167 A.D.)
Justin Martyr quotes this Roman Emperor’s letter to Minucius Fundanus, proconsul of Asia Minor. This letter deals with accusations from pagans against the Christians.

“I have received the letter addressed to me by your predecessor Serenius Granianus, a most illustrious man; and this communication I am unwilling to pass over in silence, lest innocent persons be disturbed, and occasion be given to the informers for practicing villainy. Accordingly, if the inhabitants of your province will so far sustain this petition of theirs as to accuse the Christians in some court of law, I do not prohibit them from doing so. But I will not suffer them to make use of mere entreaties and outcries. For it is far more just, if any one desires to make an accusation, that you give judgment upon it. If, therefore, any one makes the accusation, and furnishes proof that the said men do anything contrary to the laws, you shall adjudge punishments in proportion to the offences. And this, by Hercules; you shall give special heed to, that if any man shall, through mere calumny, bring an accusation against any of these persons, you shall award to him more severe punishments in proportion to his wickedness.” Justin Martyr, The First Apology, Chapters, 68-69.

archeon of thrace,

(Part 9 of 9)

JUVENAL: (55AD-127AD)
Juvenal makes a reference of the tortures of Christians by Nero in Rome. “But just describe Tigellinus and you will blaze amid those faggots in which men, with their throats tightly gripped, stand and burn and smoke, and you trace a broad furrow through the middle of the arena.“Satires, 1, lines 147-157.

SENECA:(3 B.C.-65 A.D.)
Seneca mentions the cruelties that Nero imposes upon Christians.

“The other kind of evil comes, so to speak, in the form of a huge parade. Surrounding it is a retinue of swords and fire and chains and a mob of beasts to be let loose upon the disemboweled entrails of men. Picture to yourself under his head the prison, the cross, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat. Think of human limbs torn apart by chariots driven in opposite directions, of the terrible shirt smeared and interwoven with inflammable materials, and of all the other contrivances devised by cruelty, in addition to those which I have mentioned!”
Epistulae Morales, Epistle 14, “On the Reasons for Withdrawing from the World.”

HIEROCLES:(AD 284-305)
A quote by Eusebius preserves some of the text of this lost work of Hierocles, Philalethes or Lover of Truth. In this quote, Hierocles condemns Peter and Paul as sorcerers. Again, their miracles could not be denied, rather they claimed that they used sorcery.

“And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,—men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards.”
Eusebius, The Treatise of Eusebius, ch. 2.

ANTONIUS PIUS: (86 AD to 161 AD)
A letter from the Roman Emperor Antoninus Pius to the general assembly in Asia Minor. This letter says that the officials in Aisa Minor were getting upset at the Christians in their province, and that no changes are to be made in Antoninus’ method of dealing with them.

“The Emperor Caesar Titus AElius Adrianus Antoninus Augustus Pius, Supreme Pontiff, in the fifteenth year of his tribuneship, Consul for the third time, Father of the fatherland, to the Common Assembly of Asia, greeting: I should have thought that the gods themselves would see to it that such offenders should not escape. For if they had the power, they themselves would much rather punish those who refuse to worship them; but it is you who bring trouble on these persons, and accuse as the opinion of atheists that which they hold, and lay to their charge certain other things which we are unable to prove. But it would be advantageous to them that they should be thought to die for that of which they are accused, and they conquer you by being lavish of their lives rather than yield that obedience which you require of them. And regarding the earthquakes which have already happened and are now occurring, it is not seemly that you remind us of them, losing heart whenever they occur, and thus set your conduct in contrast with that of these men; for they have much greater confidence towards God than you yourselves have. And you, indeed, seem at such times to ignore the gods, and you neglect the temples, and make no recognition of the worship of God. And hence you are jealous of those who do serve Him, and persecute them to the death. Concerning such persons, some others also of the governors of provinces wrote to my most divine father; to whom he replied that they should not at all disturb such persons, unless they were found to be attempting anything against the Roman government. And to myself many have sent intimations regarding such persons, to whom I also replied in pursuance of my father’s judgment. But if any one has a matter to bring against any person of this class, merely as such a person, let the accused be acquitted of the charge, even though he should be found to be such an one; but let the accuser he amenable to justice.”
Justin Martyr, The First Apology, ch. 70.

Please excuse any spelling mistakes, they are mostly due to typing tooooooo fast.

The existence of Jesus is not a fact.
There is not mention of him in any of the historical documents of the day.  It is not that I chose not believe he existed, there is no independant third party evidence to show he did.  The only “proof” are the new testament books.

Religion (christianity specifically in the U.S.) is science, sociology, anthropology, government theory for those too stupid or lazy to study the real things.  “God did it,” is easier than study. 39 of 43 studies link lower I.Q. on average to belief in “god.” (Bell, metastudy, 2002)

Night-Gaunt: I too have misgiving on the fig tree scenario. When I read it in one on my college courses, the action of this “great wonder of the universe-Jesus, did what any angered man would do when things do not go his way-he destroyed the fig tree. Those who were claimed to have witnessed this event thought it was a great fete. How or why makes no sense, as any moron can destroy things in a fit if anger. If Jesus was the miracle worker as claimed heresy stated, a true miracle would have been for Jesus to have the tree produce fruit instantly in the off season. Perhaps if this were the fable told, I might have reason to believe there may have been some truth to this tale.

For those who boast of America’s Christian roots:

Looking at this country through Indian eyes - you know before the white Christian Euro-trash invaded and stole this land using a variety of ways: killing, trickery, out and out thievery, deliberate lying and falsification of treaties and legal documents to steal the land and lives the Native peoples and also who in the first years when the pilgrims(Puritans)invasion of this country, it was Natives who actually saved these immigrants from starving and freezing to death, and look at what it got them. Death by diseases brought to them from the invaders, along with the outright slaughter of the indigenous peoples and all in the name of their Christian God. So sorry if I beg to differ with those who insist that America was founded on Christian values. This is nothing to be proud of and one would think those who brag of this fact would shut up and go hide of shame and embarrassment,as they should, but they are to ignorant for that. Instead they spout off lies and falsehoods to make them feel good about themselves and bury the truth, just like they did at Wounded Knee. The Native people already had an established religion or belief of their own before the White Eyes came, yet you call us heathens or devil worshipers because we believed that all people are our relations, that we are equal to all of the living creatures that the Creator put on this earth and we are to use what we need and leave the land as we find it, to respect Mother Earth as we depend on her for survival and to not mistreat nature that we rely on for survival. For this we were slaughtered by the holier than thou Christians, who BTW left many of their home countries because they desecrated the land and animals and the land was unable to support them, so they came here and started to destroy this country. And they sure did. So much for their Christian nation.

archeon of thrace,

Jesus did exist.  That is a matter of history.  Whether or not one accepts his death and resurrection is a matter of choice.  Apparently you choose not to, and that is your choice.  Peace.

Martha, it is not simply a mater of accepting Jesus or not.  I hope you realize there are more religions, and faith practices than christianity in the world.

It is infact a mater of accepting a fictional god, and a messiah who may or may not have existed, or using reason and the evidence in the day to day real world to reject a magical sky being and associated pretender prophets.

Faith is insanity.  It is believing something to be though no evidence/proof exists that what is faithfully believed is true.  Usually also it is believing though evidence/proof contrary to the faithful belief exists.

Jesus didn’t even exist. So how could he have been the messiah/savior/redeemer.  Nothing can only bring nothing.

As to the issue, the bible should be taught as “myth”, much like those of the greeks and romans, in school.

Science, sociology, evolution, literature, mathematics, history should be taught in school.  Religion and faith should remain in church and at home.

God does not exist.
Jesus was not the messiah.
Mohammed was a fraud.
Religion makes people stupid.

Night-Gaunt,

Arguing the Bible is not my cup of tea.  You either accept the free gift of God, that is Jesus, or you don’t.  Apparently you don’t, and that is your choice.

He wasn’t exactly a Gandhi after all. How good is someone who promotes the disruption of the family and is the ultimate narcissist? Not a good role model if you read all of the material on Jesus/Joshuah. Especially his psychotic rant against the fig tree for not giving fruit during the dry season. [Which is normal and natural.] I would rethink that “sweetness and light” aspect of this peculiar person.

archeon of thrace,

True, but Jesus died to give you life, freedom and love, because God is Peace, Light, Life and Love.  We must turn our religion back to Jesus and away from dominionism.  I do not think any conservative Christian that wants to dominate the nation and the world could actually be a follower of Jesus, the Son of God, who gave his life for ALL people, not just the CONSERVATIVE RIGHT, because if you don’t love your brother who you can see, how can you love God who you can’t.  The Christian CONSERVATIVES are too warring to be of God.

Tyrannical ruling of others in the name of God is not of God, which is what religions always want to do. You can rule yourself in the name of Jesus, but that is as far as it goes.

Religion is a great choice as long as it doesn’t involve exercising God’s power over others. POWER and CONTROL by MAN acting for God must not be allowed.

Jesus said the mild mannered (meek) shall inherit the earth, which doesn’t mean forcing your POWER and CONTROL over the population to oppress and tyrannize for your own greedy benefit at the expense of the majority population as has been being deceitfully done in the name of Christianity by the supposed Christian CONSERVATIVE EXTREME RIGHT.

Jesus’ way is the only way for peace and if our nation ever comes to the true Jesus that died for them, there will be a peaceful world, because Jesus loves them all, except few choose to obey Jesus, just say they are Christian, and ignore what he said, which is sad.

Religion is slavery.
Religion is bondage.
Religion is chains.
Religion is cruelty
Religion is intolerance.
Religion is bigotry.

The bible, a religious text, is propaganda supporting the above.

The koran, a religious text, is propaganda supporting the above.

Ezekiel 23:20—“There she lay with her paramours whose genitals were as those of horses, and whose emissions like those of donkeys.”

Certainly fit for kindergartners, no?

At least one of the editorial board columns condemned the school board choices and what they want. They are anonymous so I don’t know who said it. This was in the Houston Chronicle a Hearst Paper.

I don’t know their full motivations and if what was said as a reason, for good education et al, and not just to keep their point of view quite. We have plenty of churches and church based schools but it is never enough for them. They want the imprimatur of gov’t to be acceptable to them as real. Theocracy by the front door or the back.

Night-Guant:

I didn’t realize you were from Texas.  I spent a lot of time growing up in Waco and in Austin as well. 

If the doings of the Creationists on the State School Board are an embarassment does that mean that there is some actual energy for mobilization arising that might put responsible people on that board?

I heard that the elected board members got on there because no one even filed to run against them. 

Perry seems to be really shameless in pandering to the evangelicals who are into that school system revisionism stuff.  Does that really make him more likely to be re-elected?

If they get to take over the country we will find such nonsense in every military school and it will destroy the academic strength here. Just like in other places over a long time where a certain mind set took over. When it does the arts and human ingenuity declines. Creativity is stifled if it doesn’t fit the official party/sect line of being.

I too live in Texas and it is an embarrassment to many here.

here is an interesting question that comes out of christian96’s elegantly phrased invitation.
What is the dominant religious affiliation of the residents of hell? 
My only fear of hell is the torment of having to be surrounded with failed christians.
Is that an inflammatory statement? Sorry it fit the theme.

The legislation referred to in the above article is in the context of an entire slide in educational standards.  Instead of addressing how the smart kids of the future will still be Americans competing adequately with kids from Malaysia or from places like Hyderabad, the argument is about the Bible. 

The Texas State School Board, which influences textbook publishers and therefore curricula throughout the nation, now has 7 out of 15 members who are for Creationism.  The recently appointed chair is a Creationist activist.  They are promoting a rewrite of science texts and curricula and also revisioning social studies texts (you know, about how Christian evangelicals really wrote the Constitution to make theirs the state religion.)

This drift in anti-intellectualism is driven by evangelicals who seem to be bent on trying to turn back the clock, denying that the 21st century will demand anything different from school kids than the early 20th. 

There ought to be alarm bells going off everywhere.  This isn’t just a debate over silliness in Texas, where apparently people stay out in the hot sun too long. 

This will affect every school in America.  I hope everyone here does more than just send up a few keystrokes.  This is real.  This is an attack on something very crucial to the future of America. 

These people are worse than terrorists because they don’t incite much interest in what they are doing and don’t get taken seriously, especially beyond Texas.  But people not paying attention and being mildly amused - but not mobilized - are allowing medievalism and ignorance to quietly take over the school system and influence the next generation.

Thus influenced, they will be voters.  For progress?  Or continued dumbing down of the “Enlighened Public?”

Wake up people this is no joke.

Don’t forget that slavery was in the United States north and south. It disappeared in the north due more to economic than moral or ethical reasons. Even so blacks from Africa and other ethnic groups from Europe were given inferior status in many places.

Slavery is alive and well on planet earth. From the USA to Brazil to many places. Wage slaves underpaid with little hope of freedom for the best part of their lives.

One of the efforts of the Christian Right is to paint themselves as innovators of science, gov’t and even the Bill of Rights! That we have fallen from the idea that the USA was and should be again a Christian Nation. They want that fictional past alive and now. Theocracy by any other name. Many of the corporations want labor for next to nothing whether here or in some other country.

Tut, tut, Christian 666, what about Christian forbearance!  I will pray for you.

The bible is BS.

You can all GO TO HELL! I’m through casting pearls
before SWINE!

The answer is simple. If you are going to have religion in the schools have every damn one of them. If you can;t support that then your point in asking for religion in schools is to proselytize not to educate. Thus a contradiction of the separation of church and state.

The Christian churches in the South in the US, all supported slavery, and they were based on the Holy Bible. They also supported segregation, just as the South African Christian Churches supported aparteid.  And they all quoted the Holy Bible to justify it.

’... The Bible often approaches issues from the inside out. If a person experiences the love, mercy, and grace of God by receiving His salvation, God will reform his soul, changing the way he thinks and acts. A person who has experienced God’s gift of salvation and freedom from the slavery of sin, as God reforms his soul, will realize that enslaving another human being is wrong. ...’

Why, then, did the Bible have so little effect on the European slavers of old, who often went so far as to quote it as a justification for their practices?

Re: christian96

Your comment: “Biology text still teach about the simple “cell.”  Cells are far from being simple.  They are unparalled in complexity.  Yet I don’t hear you ranting and raving about the lies being taught in Biology texts.”

I can’t comment on the text you are relating to, however, the text my son has does not describe the cell as being “simple”.  In fact, it presents it as anything but that.  Which would be conducive to what I’ve always been taught and I’m 49, so can you elaborate as to your supposition?  Do you (or did you) have a text that claimed such?

I can say that this particular text omitted global warming altogether.  Now even in that context I can also say that possibly it wasn’t exactly linked to the material they covered.  On the other hand, you would think that global warming, as huge of an issue as it, would have at least been mentioned in a sidebar/info box or something.

But who knows?

” Yet I don’t hear you ranting and raving
about the lies being taught in Biology texts.  How
about the fact that DNA can’t exist without Protein
and Protein can’t exist without DNA?  You think
they just EVOLVED that way?  Your intellectual level
would be suspect if you believed that.  They both
had to be CREATED at the same time. Let’s hear some
ranting and raving about the lies being sold our
children in Biology text!”—Christian96

Ever hear of a prion? They not only exist as a folded brain protein some of them can “infect” other proteins under specific conditions to create more like them. All without DNA! What about that?

Also it has been found that the various organels of a cell were once independent. Just like the mitocondria were at one time so long ago that is in every cell of our metazoanic bodies. Oops! You are wrong. Maybe you should read up on current biology, from real scientists to start.

Outraged——In your comments at 4:35 a.m. you seemed
concerned about the History Book being taught in
the public schools yet you mentioned nothing about
the garbage being taught in Biology books.  Biology
text still teach about the simple “cell.”  Cells
are far from being simple.  They are unparalled in
complexity.  Yet I don’t hear you ranting and raving
about the lies being taught in Biology texts.  How
about the fact that DNA can’t exist without Protein
and Protein can’t exist without DNA?  You think
they just EVOLVED that way?  Your intellectual level
would be suspect if you believed that.  They both
had to be CREATED at the same time. Let’s hear some
ranting and raving about the lies being sold our
children in Biology text!

That’s the Almighty’s point in Genesis, Outraged.  First they’ll gain knowledge from the Tree of Knowledge, than they’ll gain eternal life from the Tree of Life, and they’ll be just like us Gods.  The Fall of Man was devised by Power to keep people from getting uppity.

Re: JFoster2k

“Futher study of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy lead me to the inescapable conclusion that the entire compilation was nonsense.

If teaching of the bible is to be incorporated into mainstream public education I can only hope the real truth within it is as clear to future students as it became to me… that it is a book, written by men, and nothing more. There is nothing holy about it.”

Absolutely, how about ALONGSIDE science, so the writings can be examined from a another vantage point.  Good post.

Re: Folktruther

Your comment: “Otherwise, people would become just like gods.”

Why Folktruther, they do….they do…  am I wrong?

Re: Martha A

Your comment: “I agree that all the Old Testament doesn’t need to be taught in Public School to young children, but for older children, I can’t see any harm,

I do see the harm.  Religious doctrine should NOT be taught in the schools old or new testament, unless it is SPECIFICALLY and outrightly designated as a belief system, such as this text does with its account of beliefs of the Shang Dynasty. 

it’s not any worse than the crap they see on TV and there are a lot of good stories, psalms and proverbs.  The New Testament that states that the writers didn’t follow cunningly devised fables, but were eyewitnesses of the facts of the New Testament.

I don’t agree that, “it’s not any worse”, I think its just as bad when presented this way.  There’s a lot of dogma and propaganda on TV too, yes…. I agree.

“Other religions should be able to do the same, should they choose.  I see nothing wrong with it.”

Would it also be fine with you if there was a chapter on Atheism?  One which addressed religious fallacies through the ages, reasons WHY people are atheists and the thought behind their conjecture?  The unprovoked metaphorical and sometimes literal “crucifixion” of atheists, along with the many deliberate acts perpetrated by religion and/or governments to subdue their “message”?

“But in no way should any form of religious teaching in school take the place of science being taught in school.”

I agree.

“Religious books are historic books and have too much to offer to be completely ignored academically, but all classes should be strictly voluntary.”

I agree they are historic as to how they affected the societies of their day and should be taught as such.  Not glossed over on the one hand or worse yet… a particular one exemplified by lengthy verbiage as to make it somehow more valid.  WORLD HISTORY should not be taught in an ethnocentric manner.  When it is, another overriding message is taught and received.

For the first few years of my higher education I attended a Christian college with the intention of becoming a minister. Like most lay Christians, I had accepted the bits and pieces of the Bible that had been fed to me as a child. In college, however, the paradigm shifted. I began studying all parts of the “Good Book” with a more educated and critical eye.

Learning some Greek and Hebrew in order to do translation was all it took for me to lose my faith.

My first step away from belief came as a consequence of the direct contradictions between the bible and science. For instance, as per the dogma of my particular brand of christianity, Lutheranism, I was expected to accept that God had created the cosmos in 6 literal days. This is patently absurd to anyone who understands the basics astrophysics. Additionally, translation of the Hebrew word “yom”, which loosely means “day” can have many meanings as evidenced by it’s use throughout the Old Testament to represent the time from sun up to sun down, the “day of the Lord” (a thousand year period), a week, etc… and that was just the beginning of Genesis!

Futher study of Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy lead me to the inescapable conclusion that the entire compilation was nonsense.

If teaching of the bible is to be incorporated into mainstream public education I can only hope the real truth within it is as clear to future students as it became to me… that it is a book, written by men, and nothing more. There is nothing holy about it.

Hate to bring it up, but if the Bible is being proposed as The Book to use as an example of religion, there will be people who object.  Why not the Torah?  What about the Koran?  How about vedic writings?  What about non-book related religions?  Native Americans, for instance have a very valid spiritual viewpoint, in a number of different varieties which come from traditional practice.  Why not have someone from a non-book tradition come in and talk about Spirit from such a viewpoint.  For than matter, what about the New Age sorts of practices such as revived Druidism or Wicca? 

You would think that a wise approach to education would be inclusive of all the possible varieties of human experience.  That would give you a true basis on which to consider what religion is, as opposed to what science is. 

Of course that will never happen in a public school because that would open the door to all kinds of never ending arguments.  Duh, I forgot, that’s the reason we keep religion outside the parameters of curriculum.

These people must really want the whole thing to get bogged down so that no education happens.

Religon is a power ideology.  It has been financed by power structures throughout history to legitimate Divine and earthly power.

The Jewish Bible was a successful attempt to instill a patriarchial war ideology to supplant the feminist firtility Great Goddess cults of antiquity.  As outlined by the archiologist Marija Guilitus and, especially brilliantly, by Merlin Stone in WHEN GOD WAS A WOMAN.

The racism of the Jewish bible involved the massacre of other tribes to steal their land, and steal their Vigins, as directed by the Jewish God and His priests.  It is of course sacralige to say so in a simple way.

One of the first myths of the Bible, the Fall of Man (yes, and of women too) occurred to discourage people from questioning the Truth of Authority.  The Knowledge of Good and Evil being reserved for the all powerful God and his earthly representatives.
Otherwise, people would become just like gods.

Reading the Bible, or the Sacred tracts of any of the religions, instills the values of power on the child’s worldview.  And since it is class power, it always involves violence to maintain class ineaquality.  And this violence is indoctrinated by emphasizing racial inequality across class boundaries.  Of other tribes, other races, other nations.

The values of religion are anti-people values, endorsing vilence, exploitation and deceit of the powerful against the powerless.

What? Let the tykes read the bible with out the careful misguidance of the particular flavor of the parents misconceptions of it. That’s heresy, blasphemy, the devils work, witchcraft and worse. They can’t be allowed to interpret it like any secular text. How could any one mistreat the word of God like that.
Aren’t they supposed to have faith that what they believe is in there somewhere, then all their actions are covered by the protection of God. Worse still they might come to the conclusion the bible is fiction. Worse still they might be right.

Purplewolf it was the “Tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil” which along with the “Tree of Immortality” were the only criterion to become on par with JHVH. The storm god of the Hebrews. One that originally was married!

It is how you read the Bible and the Torah et cetera that counts. They say read them with piety and reverence i. e. turn your brain off and suck it all in like a sponge without analysis. Read it with an open mind and as skeptical as you read anything else is good. They and their adherents don’t like that, however.

To me a truly holy book could be read by anyone without translation and you accept it without question. But then I am just a fallible human after all….

“How about that whale story-the hydrochloric acid in a whale’s stomach would have digested a person, unless the whale was already dead and the man only hid out in the carcass.”

Actually they say ‘fish’ but even so. One person had been swallowed for a time by a whale but was regurgitated. He was alive but never the same. The digestive enzymes had destroyed his hair follicles and pigmentation. I can’t recall when but I think it was in the 19th century.

Can you imagine an whole country like the USA operating using this book as the writ of law? There are some who do want it and they are very close to getting it. Home grown Christian supremacists and richer than most of us. They also think they would be immune from the laws they support…they are wrong.

MarthaA—It is against the Constitution to teach any sort of religion in a public school as a religion, that is, as some sort of established truth.  In any case I don’t see why crime would go down if religion were taught, but I suppose the young might feel that if God and his primary representatives were already committing all the most atrocious and exciting crimes, like totally slaughtering entire populations including their farm animals, there would be no need to add their own trivial contributions.  Why bust a cap in someone’s ass if God is going to consume it (along with their ox and, probably, their dogs, cats and hamsters) with a blast of fire from Heaven?  Has anyone ever done a statistical study on this issue, though?  It would be interesting to measure the effects of religious literature, much of which is extremely violent, on schoolchildren, by comparing similar populations one of which received the real thing and the other some sort of new-agey placebo stuff.

Elaine Pagels has written about the bible from a feminist perspective for many years. I recommend her book, “Adam, Eve and the Serpent.” A very good read with a provocative slant. Ms. Pagels is an historian and scholar; her books are carefully footnoted.

Spiritgirl:
’... Lev. 15:19-24 A man is allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness.  My question: How is a man to know, does he ask, and since the religious right don’t want to talk about sex, how do they explain the whole menstrual thing? ...’

Those who were menstruating were supposed to sit in a little hut apart from the main dwelling.  I guess it was a kind of vacation, or prison, but you would definitely know who was in the doghouse, so to speak.

Outraged,

I agree that all the Old Testament doesn’t need to be taught in Public School to young children, but for older children, I can’t see any harm, it’s not any worse than the crap they see on TV and there are a lot of good stories, psalms and proverbs.  The New Testament that states that the writers didn’t follow cunningly devised fables, but were eyewitnesses of the facts of the New Testament.

Actually, crime would probably go down in schools if there was religious classes taught.  I understand it works well in prisons.  Other religions should be able to do the same, should they choose.  I see nothing wrong with it.  But in no way should any form of religious teaching in school take the place of science being taught in school.  Religious books are historic books and have too much to offer to be completely ignored academically, but all classes should be strictly voluntary.

Since God forbid Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge,I can only conclude that God wanted his heresy creations to remain illiterate and ignorant and superstitious.

After God made man,according to the bible,he was sorry he did so.Then why,if we are to take the flood story as truth,did God allow any more people to survive?Why didn’t the fish drown?

Where did the women come from that Adam and Eve’s sons supposedly marry if they were the first and only people so far created on Earth?According to the J.W.‘s Adam and Eve were the first recognized Christian people and that there were people living all over the planet at the same time-so A&E were not really the first people.

Why did God demand that a rape victim be forced to marry her rapist?This is beyond perverted.

God ordered bears to tear apart children who made fun of a bald headed man.Pretty sick way to teach children not to tease an adult,death,kind of a permanent lesson they will never repeat again will they?

Incest must be the norm of the O.T. as according to the bible,Noah, his wife,their 3 sons and daughter-ion-laws were the only people left to repopulate the whole planet after the floods.Talk about inbreeding and a very small gene pool to select from.And the Bible says only sons were born after the flood-no female births were recorded or mentioned.Who gave birth to continue the species?

Why did God need a whole rib from Adam to create Eve when today you only need 1 cell?

Do people really believe in a talking ass(donkey not person)in the Bible-well it may have been a person after all.

How about that whale story-the hydrochloric acid in a whale’s stomach would have digested a person, unless the whale was already dead and the man only hid out in the carcass.

It is okay,according to God,to kill strangers who enter your town.

The list is endless.Why not teach children the truth.God had anger management problems.The bible is the most violent book ever written,eons after the spoken stories were manufactured by unknown people and retold hundreds of times through the ages.Do you really honestly think it is the true word of God or a book of altered heresy and gossip?

Great article…  And it is true that the best way to create an atheist is to have him actually read the bible.  It is a horrible, incoherant, boring piece of fiction.  I forced myself to read it twice.  It is just awful.

Two thousand years ago, there was lively debate about who Jesus was, and why he came. Churches before Emperor Constantine legitimized Christianity were hot beds of individuality and not the institutions that have become big business today.

Jesus said he came that we would have life to the full; abundant life [John 10:10] and that takes deep thought, wrestling with The Divine and then taking action.

“To think deeply in our culture is to grow angry and to anger others; and if you cannot tolerate this anger, you are wasting the time you spend thinking deeply. One of the rewards to deep thought is the hot glow of anger at discovering a wrong, but if anger is taboo, thought will starve to death.”-Jules Henry

The first mention of Israel in the Bible is in Genesis 32, when Jacob wrestled, struggled and then clung to the Divine being and was then renamed Israel.

Jesus also was never a Christian; in fact the term ‘Christian’ was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth as a man. Jesus was a social justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up and challenged the job security of the Temple authorities by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God already LOVED them just as they were: sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.

What got Jesus crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces of his time, by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.

The early followers and lovers of Jesus were called members of THE WAY-being THE WAY he taught one should be; Nonviolent, a Peacemaker and one who did the will of the Father. “What does God require? He has told you o’man! Be just, be merciful, and walk humbly with your Lord.” -Micah 6:8

The Rest of “The Stages of the Soul and How Religiosity/Fundamentalism is holding up Evolution” @
http://wearewideawake.org/
A GREATER AWAKENING series

Check this out: excerpts from my son’s 6th grade world history book.

Glencoe/McGrawHill
Journeys Across Time copyright 2008
Hardcover. Pg.95

“What is in the Hebrew Bible?  The Hebrew Bible is really a series of books collected together. The Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings that were added later make up the Hebrew Bible.  Some of these books describe events in history.  Others are books of law, prophecy, poetry, and proverbs.

Genesis also explains why the world has languages.  It tells how the people of Babel tried to build a tower to heaven.  God disapproved and made the people speak in different languages, then scattered them across the earth.”

Is it plausible that a sixth-grader could tell this from fiction if someone hadn’t already explained the true nature of the bible as a holy book. It isn’t presented as beliefs.  And how would a child whose head has been filled with this fiction internalize it.  Obviously, it would serve only to qualify what they had already been told.

Very sparingly is the term belief used at this point in the text (pg.95)  This same text does not explain or address the meaning of the word myth until pg.155 when it addresses Greek culture.

Compare that to this same book’s very concrete portrayal regarding beliefs of the Shang Dynasty, on pg.227.

“People in Shang China worshiped gods and spirits.  Spirits were believed to live in mountains, rivers, and seas.  The people believed that they had to keep the gods and spirits happy by making offerings of food and other goods.  They believed that the gods and spirits would be angry if they were not treated well.  Angry gods and spirits might cause farmers to have a poor harvest or armies to lose a battle.”

Even though the second excerpt is half that of the first, the term belief is used three times, but in the first…. NOT AT ALL.

This is WHY it should not be taught in public schools.

The major problem with the Holy Scripture is not its intellectual absurdity. It is its moral perversion.  If people just believed absurdities and superstitions, it would all just be another part of life’s rich paegant.  But all the sacred massacres and holy atrocities it brags about would bend the minds of the little tots.

It’s quite true, and Z’m ashamed to admit it, that I haaven’t read the Jewish bible all the way through.  The Chrisitan bible is much better, shorter, you can whiz through it in a couple of hourss.  But the Old Testement, My God, it goes on and on. God is great, God is really great, God is great indeed, it’s enough to make you puke.  Possibly I just don’t have the religious temperment.

It’s not the bible that is the problem.  It is people letting their ludicrously rich televangelist interpret the bible for them that is the problem.

James Dobson, Tony Perkins, Pat Robertson ... the late Jerry Falwell:  Political operatives all, first last and foremost.

Peter Scheer exposes his ignorance again.  What is
he really defending?  He must be queer as a 3 dollar
bill.  Remember Peter, “You reap what you sow!”

Peter,

(Part 1 of 2)

Exodus 21:20-21 doesn’t say it’s OK, it only says if the master smites the servant with a rod and the servant dies under his hand, then that is the servant’s punishment, but if he lives, there will be no more punishment because the servant is money.  Of course I would think that what ever the servant got smited for would have to cease.  Aren’t you glad there is no more slavery.  Slavery and indentured servant service can be cruel if a servant is willful.  We must do all possible to keep citizens of the United States from getting back under the YOKE of slavery. 

Exodus 21:7 Men did sell their daughters to be servants and apparently this was so that women would not be treated as the men.

Exodus 21:17 I expect they would be stoned that cursed their mother or father, should the parents demand, which would be conducive to children being good to their parents.

Deuteronomy 22:21 today would get most everyone.  It was plain that sin had been committed, but Jesus countermands this law when he said to the people about to stone a woman, that he that is without sin cast the first stone, and all left and none stoned the woman, which is in St. John 8:3-11.  Aren’t you thankful we are no longer under that law?

Leviticus 20:13 Pedantic parsing, mankind is the whole human species, so women don’t escape.

Leviticus 16:1-34, True, but God through Jesus became a human blood sacrifice for mankind’s sin, once for all.  You don’t want to leave out the New Testament.

Matthew 10:34 True.  The sword is symbolic.  Jesus’ word, the word of God, is a two-edged sword against the enemies of God, but Jesus is Peace and tells his followers to Pray for the peace of Jerusalem. 

Matthew 10:21 this is not Jesus that tears families apart, it is sin against God, that is why they stoned to death known sinners in the Old Testament—to get sin out of their camp, one has to have a repentant heart toward God.

Matthew 10:36 this is because sin abounds to a great degree.  You can not discount sin and expect to understand the word of God.

Matthew 11:20-24 again, there is massive sin in these cities.  It wasn’t a matter of not liking his sermons, they were totally ungodly altogether and saw no need to repent. 

Mark 7:9-10 God is not in favor of people having traditions of abandoning their parents or mistreating their parents.  Forgiveness can come through the blood of Jesus. But traditions of not taking care of your parents according to scripture makes the word of God of no effect.

Luke 12:5 Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Psalms 111:10 It isn’t God that hurts anyone, people get hurt when they become willful and draw away from God’s protection.

John 3:36 God sent his Son to die as a ransom for YOU, if you don’t get the point, and accept that the ransom has been paid for YOU, a free gift from God, you will seal your own fate, not God.

Peter,

(Part 2 of 2)

What does it matter when Jesus was born?  Jesus said he didn’t want you to remember his birth, he ONLY wants you to remember his resurrection, because that is all that matters.

Matthew 2:1 Joseph and Mary left Bethlehem and returned after Herod died.  I see nothing wrong with that.

Luke 2:1-5 Probably because you aren’t suppose to remember his birth, you are suppose to remember his resurrection.  I do not see this as being important, if everything was written, there would not be a book big enough.  You are working too hard trying to dispute the Bible, humble yourself and talk with God and God will clue you in to what is important.
Genesis 1:26 Forget looking for a time sequence.  Man did not create man. 

Genesis 2:7 Without the breath of life people die every day.  The breath of life still comes from God.

Genesis 2:19 Jesus was the sacrifice for ALL sin.  There will never be any more animal sacrifices for followers of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ.

The Bible is not a fairy tale.  The Bible is safe for children. God IS what keeps the stars, moon and planets in their proper obits like a well oiled clock.  Nature itself is witness of God’s majesty.  The problems with our world today isn’t God, it is GREEDY RIGHT-WING CONSERVATIVE EXTREMIST SUBJECTIVE SOPHIST PROPAGANDA permeating society from cradle to grave.

I see nothing wrong with having a Biblical class at school, but in no way do I discount science, or medicine or anything that is a betterment to society. 

God is found through people, but once you become aware of God’s Son Jesus, you will have to find Him on your knees, because sooner or later every knee will bow to Jesus, who died so that YOU may have everlasting life.  It is not the 1st death that should be feared, it is the 2nd death.

Hey, so what’s wrong with bringing the Bible to schools? I’d only insist it be put in the library with other nonsensical fiction such as the nursery rhymes and fairy tales. 

And what about the violence? Oh please. What could be more violent than Little Red Riding Hood? Consider: ...“Poor Grandma! For in one bound, the wolf leapt across the room and, in a single mouthful, swallowed the old lady. Soon after, Little Red Riding Hood tapped on the door…

The point is, it’s all fiction.

I once took a freshman survey course on the Bible and history.  I recall that, if you look at the archeology and the history of it, and the facts around the original convention in 300ad where what we today call the Bible was edited together, it is really interesting. 

The thing is, you can’t look at it from a literalist perspective if you understand the full historical background. 

I suspect that all that is beyond a high school level analysis however, and I can just see the literalists hit the ceiling when their kid comes home and starts talking about the various interpretations of Moses crossing the Reed Sea (the Reed sea was an area that was a dried over marshland.  When lots of people crossed it, the skin didn’t break, but when iron chariot wheels and horse hooves pounded over it, the skin broke.)

It would be interesting.  However, high school kids are weak on history since WWII in America and the Cold War leaves them cold.  The further back in time, the more confused it will get with video games. 

Whatever these people are thinking, they aren’t thinking.

The sad thing is that there are people out there who actually BELIEVE this book with all their heart. Most people who blindly follow the bible have no knowledge of it, other than what is taught in Sunday school. The “religious right” in America is starting to look more like the taliban every day. They (the taliban) enforce the teaching of their holy book, also. Funny, the arab world used to be the leading center of learning for the entire world. Now, the only book most muslims ever read is the koran. Notice any difference between the cultures of arabs before islam and after? What do you think America will be like if everyone is forced to get knowledge from the bible?

Here are a few more:

1) While Lev.1:9 says burning a bull on the alter as a sacrifice creates a pleasing odor for the Lord.  My question:  how do you explain that to the neighbors, and the police that will show up?

2) Lev. 15:19-24 A man is allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness.  My question: How is a man to know, does he ask, and since the religious right don’t want to talk about sex, how do they explain the whole menstrual thing?

3)Exodus 35:2 states that you should not work on the sabbath.  So are people morally obligated to kill those Wal-Mart workers?

Just a few of those burning questions in an attempt to understand the religious right….