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Ear to the Ground

Iran Covers Up Deaths and Threatens West

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Posted on Jul 16, 2009
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In Iran, it is estimated that hundreds more people than Iranian officials have admitted have died in the heavy military crackdowns on election protesters.

The Guardian:

Hundreds more people may have died in Iran’s post-election unrest than the authorities have admitted, amid allegations that the death toll has been obscured by hiding victims’ bodies in secret morgues.

Human rights campaigners say anecdotal evidence suggests the number of demonstrators killed in clashes with government forces after last month’s poll was far higher than the official death toll of 20 and may amount to a “massacre”.

Suspicions have been fuelled after one woman described seeing corpses piled on top of each other in a refrigeration depot while searching for a missing relative. Another woman was shown pictures of between 50 and 60 people, all said to have died, while searching for her son.

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Meanwhile, President Ahmadinejad has promised to do more cracking down, this time on the West, stating “this nation will strike you in the face so hard you will lose your way home,”

Reuters:

Newly re-elected President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Thursday his next government “would bring down the global arrogance,” signaling a tougher approach by Tehran toward the West after last month’s disputed election.

Ahmadinejad, in his first provincial trip after the June 12 presidential vote, said Iran’s enemies had tried to interfere and foment aggression in the country, referring to mass opposition protests against the official election result.

The hardline president, who often rails against the West, said the Islamic Republic wanted “logic and negotiations” but that Western powers had insulted the Iranian nation and should apologize.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 23, 2009 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

As you call me “Gone with the Wind?”  You can’t take the crap you dish out, can you?  If you don’t want to risk getting hit you shouldn’t be out here punching away.

Don’t fling crap at people and not expect to get it back.

Zircon, you are as much a hypocrite as your are duplicitous.  You have NEVER even ADMITTED that Palestinians have EVER attacked Israeli citizens.  You pretend that it never, ever happened.

I, OTOH, acknowledge that there is a problem with Israeli forces clearly exceeding the limits that both international law AND basic decency prohibit, and committing crimes.

So who’s the bullshit artist here? Who is acting like the spoiled child? (hint: it ain’t me).

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By diamond, July 23, 2009 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment

You haven’t rebutted a single issue I’ve raised - and how can you? The facts prove you wrong. Instead of even attempting to disprove what I’ve said you resort to calling me zircon and using words like vomitus. Childish, kindergarten stuff. And you’re still wrong.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 23, 2009 at 4:49 am Link to this comment

Zircon takes a thousand words to AVOID saying what he thinks:

Suicide bombing of Israeli civilians and children is OK.

He plays word games “Since there’s no state there can’t be a war crime”.  OK so if there’s no Palestinian state and that’s a requirement for a war crime then Israel can’t be committing a war crime either. 

Then Zircon throws out the usual “Contingent” vomitus of unsupported accusations against me of lying and, of course, the absurd assertion that the ONLY crimes committed in the ENTIRE Middle East must have Israeli and/or US backing.

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By diamond, July 22, 2009 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

More spin from Gone with the Wind. And how amusing it is that I should blame the Iranians, according to Sepharad - for what? For being done over by the Americans and having an elected government overthrown and replaced by that old fascist the Shah? Overthrowing the Shah is what then led to the reign of the mullahs. How this is the fault of the Iranians escapes me. The whole mess in the Middle East can be put down to two countries, America and Israel. And as for war crimes being committed by Palestinians: once more you display your deceit and ignorance. The Palestinians have no state: war crimes can only be committed by a state because only a state can make war on another state, group, religion or ethnicity because only a state has an army, navy and air force. The Palestinians have no army, no navy and no air force - and no country. To compare anything they have done to what the IDF can do to them, thanks to the hideous weapons supplied to them by the United States is ridiculous.

The Palestinians have no phosphorous bombs, no planes to drop them, no attack helicopters to fly over Israel and execute people in the street, no soldiers to go into Israel and carry out massacres and no one to defend their activities in the United Nations and protect them from any consequences. Israel also has nuclear weapons, biological weapons and chemical weapons, all thoughtfully provided by the United States along with billions of dollars in foreign aid. Most of what is listed as foreign aid from America goes to Israel. You only have to look at one fact. Israel has now taken 70% of the land that once belonged to the Palestinians and they intend to take the rest. What does this tell you? If the Palestinians have carried out all these mythical massacres and their level of violence is in any way comparable to that of Israel, why has their land been relentlessly acquired by Israel for years on end while the rest of the world looked the other way and blamed the Palestinians for everything that was done to them? The facts give the lie to your whole argument. Not that I’m surprised, because your arguments are a tissue of lies and a complete distortion of history. You SAY you reject war crimes but that’s just another lie. If you really rejected war crimes you couldn’t defend Israel and its 60 year destruction of the Palestinians, which you do, however much you try to pretend you don’t.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2009 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

Zircon,
You are the one with the double talk.

Where have I said war crimes are OK?

But YOU repeatedly pretend there has never been deliberate attacks on Israeli citizens, including children.

As I said, in the Zircon world, a war crime only happens when an Israeli does it to a Palestinian, but it’s NOT a war crime when a Palestinian does it to an Israeli.

THAT, my imitation-jewelry friend, is truly double-talk.

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By Sepharad, July 22, 2009 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, in case you get tired of reading Zircon/Xeros b.s., on the Sean Penn/Iran thread there are some interesting posts from a number of Iranians, including Seth Eslami. (tropicgirl tried to shut them up by saying they didn’t know what the CIA was doing, putting signs in English and all, and that Moussavi actually had a bad background. But Iranians, though polite in all weather, responded.) Wish diamond/robert/folktruther would direct some of their invective at the Iranians for a change. They would at least have to read the responses, not just react, or risk being seen as single-mindedly politically correct as they are.

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By diamond, July 22, 2009 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment

Double speak. Orwell would be impressed ITW. Are you seriously trying to justify the massacres carried out against unarmed civilians that have been the hallmark of Israel’s bloodstained history? The massacres in refugee camps which are a speciality of the IDF? And how can you claim that shooting down families is done in defense of the state of Israel?

Any coward can shoot an old woman down in cold blood. Any coward can fire on peace activists or run them over with tanks. Any coward can blame others for their murderous activities. And what kind of people fire on ambulances and hospitals and deliberately lock wounded children up in a house and wait for them to die? What kind of people line children up with their grandmothers and gun them down? Well, I know the answer, even if you pretend not to. Fascists. That’s who. Now, if the Palestinians had invaded someone else’s land and perpetrated these crimes I would be saying the same thing about them. But the fact is, ever since the ‘catastrophe’ occurred it has overwhelmingly been the Palestinians who have been butchered, not even for revenge but as a policy of state. Ethnic cleansing. They were butchered to get them off their land and they are now locked up in what might as well be a concentration camp. How you expect any rational or moral person to take Israel’s side in this is beyond me. Israel has torn the Declaration of Human Rights to shreds which is probably why the neo cons decided it was old hat, surplus to requirements. But I agree with A.C. Grayling who wrote in ‘Towards the Light: The Story of the Struggle for Liberty and Rights’: ‘Liberty and rights, then, are matters of very real, very deep, very important moment, they are life and death matters; they are crucial and they apply to each one of us- and we live at a time when they are under pressure’. Israel can’t have liberty or rights as long as it denies them to the Palestinians and can’t expect respect when it denies it to others.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 22, 2009 at 7:11 am Link to this comment

There you go, Seph.

Remember: According to Zircon, a war crime is when a Palestinian civilian is killed by an Israeli weapon.

But when an Israeli citizen is killed by a Palestinian weapon, or a suicide bomber—that, by the Zircon/“TC” definition, is not only not a war-crime, is not only justifiable, but is actually A Good Thing because it’s “teaching Israel a lesson”.  That’s just how they think.

Any action against Israel, even if deliberately targeting children for death, is just fine with them…

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By Sepharad, July 21, 2009 at 11:19 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, I know you’re right but sometimes I forget and respond to their junk anyway. I did see Obama’s cut to equal settlement expenditures and was so happy! Since no one in the Israeli government seems to be able to restrain the big N., Obama did all Israelis a huge favor here. (Now if he could also suggest there will be more cuts if Israel attack Iran ... though as the theocratic coup degenerates into a military coup, it’s not going to exactly relax the Israelis’ paranoia. But good news is good news. Now if Obama will show some equal spine re a public health plan option, I might even vote again for him if he runs again.

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By diamond, July 21, 2009 at 10:51 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad, where to begin? When you talk about Hamas and Hezbollah you’re talking about cause and effect but you only want to talk about effect, not cause. You want to talk about what a Muslim said on a website yesterday about what they SAY they want to do but you don’t want to talk about what Israel has ACTUALLY done, and has done to the Palestinians and the Lebanese for sixty years. You talk with self-righteous anger about what those Serbs did to Muslims but you don’t talk about the fact that Israel burned plenty of Muslims alive in Gaza and in Lebanon with their white phosphorous bombs (which are forbidden under international law so that’s a war crime right there), how they gunned down an old woman walking down a road who was an unarmed civilian and far away from them, how they ordered families out of houses lined them up and shot them, including infants and grandmothers. This was not the fog of war, these were war crimes. The killing of unarmed civilians is completely forbidden under the laws of war, the bombing of civilian residences, of ambulances, of hospitals, the refusal to let ambulances with wounded in them through, the leaving of wounded civilians to die, including children, locking them up in a house and waiting for them to die - all of these things are war crimes. Israeli shells deliberately targeted civilian housing so that one father went into his 17 year old daughter’s bedroom and found her body leaning up against the wall with her head blown off by a shell. Nefesh hates Muslims, that much is plain, and if you think I’m going to read anything he recommends you can think again. All these facts about Gaza were in interviews with survivors of the massacre in Gaza and they were confirmed by a journalist from Haaretz who said that Israel had committed war crimes in Gaza, had used phosphorous bombs on civilians etc. If there are Muslims who want to destroy Israel I don’t condone that but I can certainly understand their rage. Human beings don’t just give up and go away when they’re treated inhumanely: you as a Jew should know that better than anyone.

It was the holocaust that led to the Declaration of Human Rights in 1948. In the preamble it states:

1. Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

2.Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

3.Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

4.Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations…

You and Nefesh should pay careful attention to number 4. Israel has never understood it or put it into practice.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2009 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

Seph,

You won’t convince Zircon (a fake diamond) any more than you will Mr. Xerox. 

Zircon has decided that Israel created two Muslim orgs sworn to DESTROY Israel as a ploy.  The idiocy of such a hypothesis escapes him, and will continue to escape him indefinitely, as it will Mr. Xerox.

See, these guys are about to start CHOKING when they read that President Obama is going to cut off EXACTLY the amount of aid equal to What-a-yahoo and his government plan on expanding the settlements as the first step to pressuring them back to sensible policies.

See, Seph, conspiracy theorists don’t need REAL facts—they have all kinds of phony-baloney ones they rely on instead.

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By Sepharad, July 21, 2009 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

diamond, the links nefesh supplied were not his words or ideas, but those of Hamas. As I also said, you can find books written by leaders of Hezbollah and Hamas in which they air their beliefs without any middle man, Jewish or otherwise, warping their sentiments and plans.

Why should the Israelis use Hamas or Hezbollah to demonize Moslems? Other MOSLEMS demonize Hamas, Hezbollah and the Taliban when they’ve had some involvement with them. The ISLAMISTS are the dishonest ones, turning the young and the poor into suicide soldiers, human shields, etc. Last I hear, Fatah military was shooting at Hamas militants the the West Bank, not Israeli soldiers.

What the two Serbs did was to lock Muslims inside two houses and burn both down, burning the people inside alive. I realize that in war, rockets that hit buildings in which people live may be just as lethal. But the point here was that these two individuals rounded up men, women and children, forced them into houses which they then locked, and set fire to them. They could have taken them into custody, but they chose to kill them in a horribly painful way. That’s the kind of crime that makes you think the perps’ day jobs are sadistic serial killers.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 21, 2009 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

Your paranoia, disruptive anger/behavior & deceptive lies are a way of life for you…so it seems. You are an absolute moron & a damn liar. You have NO integrity ITW.
***************************************

You can’t keep from contradicting yourself in your own spittle-spewing rage (clean off your screen—the phlegm is disgusting.)

If I’m a moron then I’m not responsible for my actions and I can’t be a liar because I don’t know truth from fiction. I also cannot be accused of lacking integrity because I don’t have the mental capacity to know right from wrong.

OTOH, if I am a liar and have no integrity, I cannot be a moron.

Actually, I’ve not LIED about anything.  Just because I finally broke down and read one of your thefts of somebody else’s ideas doesn’t mean I don’t just skip over 99 out of a 100 of your posts.  I can’t REMEMBER the last time I got past the point where you had a title and an author before I moved on to the next poster.  Just because I read ONE of these doesn’t make me a liar.

And where you get the idea I have no integrity is clearly out of your own fevered brain where ANYONE and EVERYONE who doesn’t agree with you lock-step “has no integrity”.

As I’ve said—you’ve never had an original idea since I’ve seen your posts…Mr. Xerox.

Now it’s clear you have even less ability at critical reasoning.

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By diamond, July 21, 2009 at 2:48 am Link to this comment

Sepharad I don’t need educating on any of this. You seem to think I’m some naive fool who has been misled by the bad guys. Nefesh is an ignorant bigot, why would I believe anything he told me? And if the stuff he spouts on here is what he got from these ‘links’ then I’m afraid I’ll simply have to forgo the enlightenment such hateful, rabid, racist propaganda supposedly offers me. Both Hamas and Hezbollah have been enormously useful to Israel in their bid to demonize every Muslim in the world but I can think for myself thank you and I will never condone Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians however much you urge me to re-consider. Killing babies is killing babies and whether it’s done by the Nazis or the Israelis interests me not one jot. I reject all such crimes and I refuse to accept Israel’s special pleading. You can’t have one rule for one group of people and another rule for another.This simply corrupts the entire political process for everyone. Two Serbian men were sentenced to life in prison in a war crimes court today and neither of them did anything that wasn’t done in Gaza by Israel and hasn’t been done by Israel for sixty years.

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By Sepharad, July 20, 2009 at 11:52 pm Link to this comment

diamond and Robert (I keep getting your posts confused but that’s OK—they more or less attempt to articulate the same old stuff), re Hamas, I DO know “perfectly well” what they are because I read what they say, not what you suggest or imply. Now, nefesh set up some very easy links for you to look at in his July 18 post, or you could go on Amazon and look for the books THEY and their leaders have written about what they really believe and what they really want.

I could tell you Inherit is NOT a liar, but you would not believe me because you think I am a liar too. (I’m not. I were to lie you would probably like what I said.) Anyway, tant pis. You might consider, however, that some of the more sensible anti-Israel people on this website, like Shingo, take Inherit the Wind at his word. Even Folktruther, whom I don’t consider anywhere close to as sensible as Shingo—who also disagrees with me constantly—likes Inherit in his own weird way. So what’s your problem?

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By Robert, July 20, 2009 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

ITW…I wish that you practiced what you have been trying to preach for such a long time.

Your paranoia, disruptive anger/behavior & deceptive lies are a way of life for you…so it seems. You are an absolute moron & a damn liar. You have NO integrity ITW.

I’ll continue to post the TRUTH from various authors, historians and other people of compassion, justice & human rights for all people & especially the oppressed!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 20, 2009 at 8:29 pm Link to this comment

As for ITW, your cofession regarding reading my posts comes as NO surprise to me. You are a transparent deceptive liar. Your sneaky smearing attempts are for the purpose of steering away individual readers from reading what I post on TD regarding AIPAC, Israel’s terrorism, Israel’s child killers, the IDF and your racist/nazi zionism’s ideology. A lot of my posts have been authored by Jewish authors who reject zionism & Israel’s brutal killings of a mostly unarmed civilian Palestinian & Lebanese populations.

You are a deceptive liar & a moron. I don’t care about what you read. So, do NOT read my posts at all. After all, this is what you have been saying all along!
***********************************************

If you recycle the same primal scream too many times it gets threadbare.

Once again, you prove my point, Mr. Xerox.  You have never had one original idea ever.

Once again, you respond with nothing but a torrent of abuse (recycled abuse).  So I’m a “liar” because I actually broke down and read your shit ONE TIME?

Anyone who disagrees with you gets this diarrhea stream of abuse.  You are nothing but a fascist, through and through, demanding total agreement with your little mind or…you impotently rant and rave.

Can’t you AT LEAST come up with something new and original?  That wouldn’t prove me a liar but it might actually prove me wrong about you…..

Ain’t gonna happen.  I’ll be pushing up daisies long before THAT happens.

(and Noam Chomsky is a Marxist trying to hide his Marxism while he CONTINUES to spout the standard Marxist pre-defined talking points of drivel. Just as one example of your “Jewish” authors.)

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By Robert, July 20, 2009 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

By diamond, July 20 at 5:05 pm #

“You just don’t pay attention do you ITW? The fact is that Israel was perfectly happy for Hamas to be founded. They saw it as a means of dividing the Palestinians but when they tried to put this tactic to the test after Hamas won the election by organizing (with the agreement of the then US administration) for Fatah to carry out a coup -their dream was a lengthy, bloody civil war that would eliminate as many of the people in Gaza as possible- Hamas drove Fatah out in seven days. In Lebanon, the only army capable of defeating Israel is Hezbollah and since Israel persists in invading Lebanon when it’s a dull day and they’ve got nothing better to do, who you gonna call?”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Diamond,

You may be wasting your time on ITW and BTW, he is paying attention when it comes to the topic of Israel & zionism’s ideology. ITW, has NO choice…his head is forever locked into that zionism’s box. His ways are almost always predictable…its the ole “trick method” of bringing up “anti-semitic/holocaust”, Islamic phobia, baseball, his pets…etc…Sepharad ways are similar too…PR agenda, damage control, horses…and so on.

`````````````

As for ITW, your cofession regarding reading my posts comes as NO surprise to me. You are a transparent deceptive liar. Your sneaky smearing attempts are for the purpose of steering away individual readers from reading what I post on TD regarding AIPAC, Israel’s terrorism, Israel’s child killers, the IDF and your racist/nazi zionism’s ideology. A lot of my posts have been authored by Jewish authors who reject zionism & Israel’s brutal killings of a mostly unarmed civilian Palestinian & Lebanese populations.

You are a deceptive liar & a moron. I don’t care about what you read. So, do NOT read my posts at all. After all, this is what you have been saying all along!

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By diamond, July 20, 2009 at 2:05 pm Link to this comment

You just don’t pay attention do you ITW? The fact is that Israel was perfectly happy for Hamas to be founded. They saw it as a means of dividing the Palestinians but when they tried to put this tactic to the test after Hamas won the election by organizing (with the agreement of the then US administration) for Fatah to carry out a coup -their dream was a lengthy, bloody civil war that would eliminate as many of the people in Gaza as possible- Hamas drove Fatah out in seven days. In Lebanon, the only army capable of defeating Israel is Hezbollah and since Israel persists in invading Lebanon when it’s a dull day and they’ve got nothing better to do, who you gonna call? The disorganized and corrupt Lebanese army that couldn’t beat a rug or Hezbollah? No brainer. The IDF got its backside well and truly kicked last time they popped in for lunch and you know as well as I do that it wasn’t the Lebanese army that saw them off. Israel is therefore responsible for the creation of these groups and they will always exist as long as Israel behaves as irresponsibly and self-destructively as it does. To then blame the Lebanese and the Palestinians for their existence is typical of Israel’s stupidity and lack of insight into their own motivations and their violent and anarchic brand of politics.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 20, 2009 at 8:55 am Link to this comment

Sepharad, Israel created Hamas as a divide and conquer tactic. They also created Hezbollah.
*************************************

Yup. We all know Israel created two guerrilla groups sworn to destroy it.

Yeah, that makes sense, but only if it’s Jews doing it.  Anybody else would never do anything that insane, but it must be part of the Jews’ giant plan for World Domination!  Besides, we Jews aren’t really human and don’t think like “normal” people, do we?

(BTW, only Islamic fundamentalist groups have explicitly stated their intention to conquer the world, of course, in God’s Name).

Mr. Xerox: I must confess I DO occasionally read the garbage you post, but DESPITE my above comment, I really am only human and do fail from my best intentions from time to time.  It’s like falling off your diet every now and again.

You STILL post other peoples’ radical and unsupported opinions as fact because you STILL are unable to formulate anything intelligent on your own.

To be so dumb and so angry…I’d really hate to be you.

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By diamond, July 19, 2009 at 10:46 pm Link to this comment

Sepharad, Israel created Hamas as a divide and conquer tactic. They also created Hezbollah. You know this pefectly well. Many of the excellent journalists who work for Haaretz have pointed out repeatedly how crazy and self-destructive this and the invasions of Lebanon are but they are ignored. It is Israel’s policy to assassinate any Palestinian leader who is intelligent and articulate, especially if they speak English. And if they are moderates they will almost certainly be blown up in the street, gunned down from helicopters or kidnapped and locked up in Israel. For a long time Israel only wanted extremists to lead the Palestinians because then they could claim they had ‘no partner for peace’.

Israel tried to kill Khalid Mishal because they could see he was marked for leadership. Being a physicist and highly articulate he was soon marked for death as well. In 1997 two Mossad agents squirted some specialized drug Israel had invented in Mishal’s ear as they passed him in the street. They were posing as Canadian tourists.They did this in Jordan, even though King Hussein was a friend of Israel’s and had taken great risks to make peace with Israel. In no time Hussein was on the phone to Bill Clinton and Netanyahu (yes, him again) was forced to send another Mossad agent with the antidote to Mishal’s hospital bed to save his life. This is the power America has over Israel so any talk of how they can’t control Israel is garbage. Mishal now leads Hamas and perhaps you can explain to me why he should be Israel’s friend. And this whining about Hamas just makes me sick. You reap what you sow Sepharad, don’t you know that? Israel is no different to any other state in that regard even though you seem to think it should be.

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By Robert, July 19, 2009 at 9:06 pm Link to this comment

That ITW’s originality, cleverness & trickery is expensive…not cheap…hmmm! ITW keeps saying he does NOT read what I posts!

The TRUTH has a lasting effect and a deep penetrating pain. My last post just did that to your paranoid kind.

Your pale attacks are just pure desperation & sidetracking attempts. Your “anti-semitic” tricks don’t work on me & posting the TRUTH.

I do agree with Shulamit Aloni, a former Israeli minister, regarding AIPAC’s influence & “anti-semitic/holocaust” tricks. See my previous post of 7/18 at 10:30 PM.

Sleep Well & don’t get your panties in a wad!

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By Inherit The Wind, July 19, 2009 at 7:47 pm Link to this comment

Yet again, Mr. Xerox posts someone’s else’s nut-job crazy-ass opinion as if it’s fact.

I think Mr. Xerox has seen too many sci-fi flicks and TV shows where aliens take over someone’s mind and body.  He now thinks and posts that Jews are doing it to our Christian leaders…“Israel is secretly running our foreign policy! EEEE!!! INVASION OF THE BODY SNATCHERS!!!!!!”

But don’t anyone dare call him…(horrors) “anti-semitic”!  Then they are a “zionist fascist” and a lot of dirty names.

Must come from sniffing too much copier toner.

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By Robert, July 19, 2009 at 7:10 pm Link to this comment

How Israel Lobby Took Control Of US Foreign Policy

AIPAC becomes foreign agent dominating American foreign policy while disguised as domestic lobby.

By Jeff Gates

July 19, 2009

LOUISIANA - “In the early 1960s, Senator William J. Fulbright fought to force the American Zionist Council to register as agents of a foreign government. The Council eluded registration by reorganizing as the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. AIPAC has since become what Fulbright most feared: a foreign agent dominating American foreign policy while disguised as a domestic lobby.

Israelis and pro-Israelis object when they hear that charge. How, they ask, can we so few wield such influence over so many? Answer: it’s all in the math. And in the single-issue advocacy brought to bear on US policy-making by dozens of ‘domestic’ organizations that now compose the Israel lobby, with AIPAC its most visible force.

The political math was enabled by Senator John McCain whose support for all things Israeli ensured him the GOP nomination to succeed Christian-Zionist G.W. Bush. McCain’s style of campaign finance reform proved a perfect fit for the Diaspora-based fundraising on which the lobby relies. Co-sponsored by Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin, this change in federal election law typifies how Israeli influence became systemic.

‘McCain-Feingold’ raised the amount (from $1,000 to $2,300) that candidates can receive from individuals in primary and general elections. A couple can now contribute a combined $9,200 to federal candidates: $4,600 in each of the primary and general elections. Primary elections, usuall low-budget, are particularly easy to sway.

Importantly for the Diaspora, this change also doubled the funds candidates can receive without regard to where those contributors reside. A candidate in Iowa, say, may have only a few pro-Israeli constituents. When campaign support is provided by a nationwide network of pro-Israelis, that candidate can more easily be persuaded to support policies sought by Tel Aviv.

Diaspora-based fundraising has long been used by the lobby with force-multiplying success to shape US foreign policy. Under the guise of reform, John McCain doubled the financial resources that the lobby can deploy to elect and retain its supporters.

Fulbright was Right

The influence-peddling process works like this. Candidates are summoned for in-depth AIPAC interviews. Those found sufficiently committed to Israel’s agenda are provided a list of donors likely to “max out” their campaign contributions. Or the process can be made even easier when AIPAC-approved candidates are given the name of a “bundler.”

Bundlers raise funds from the Diaspora and bundle those contributions to present them to the candidate. No quid pro quo need be mentioned. After McCain-Feingold became law in 2003, AIPAC-identified bundlers could raise $1 million-plus for AIPAC-approved candidates simply by contacting ten like-minded supporters. Here’s the math:

The bundler and spouse “max out” for $9,200 and call ten others, say in Manhattan, Miami, and Beverly Hills. Each of them max out ($10 x $9,200) and call ten others for a total of 11. [111 x $9,200 = $1,021,200.]

Imagine the incentive to do well in the AIPAC interview. One call from the lobby and a candidate can collect enough cash to mount a credible campaign in most Congressional districts. From Tel Aviv’s perspective, that political leverage is leveraged yet again because fewer than ten percent of the 435 House races are competitive in any election cycle (typically 35 to 50).

Additional force-multipliers come from: (a) sustaining this financial focus over multiple cycles, (b) using funds to gain and retain seniority for those serving on Congressional committees key to promoting Israeli goals, and (c) opposing any candidates who question those goals.”
~~~~

2009 AIPAC Policy Conference:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23098.htm

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By Sepharad, July 19, 2009 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

diamond, you and Folktruther should really have a look at the links reporting exact words and opinions of Hamas et. al in nefesh’s July 18, 8:45 post. It is precisely their disregard for anyone’s life, even their own people, that makes them, like Hezbollah, impossible to deal with.

Folktruther, it’s foolish to argue that Israeli Jews are different from Parisian Jews or any other locale’s Jews. In every group of Jews, including Israelis, you will find vast differences of opinion.  I don’t know what about this is hard for you to understand. Sayeret Golani agrees, as does Inherit and I, that Avigdor Lieberman is a nut job. You write these expansive paragraphs with no reference to anyone else’s arguments, just coming up with more and more rambling rhetoric. Then quite often, on other threads and other subjects, you occasionally can be sensible and coherent.

Inherit notes notes above that I usually ignore most of the varying names you, FT, call me. The reason is that in most cases they are either untrue or 2) not insults, e.g. “Zionist”. 

Oh—on July 17 at 2:23a.m., someone named Robert offered an original observation. For a brief moment I thought the same old TD Robert had received a welcome braintransplant, enabling more him to make the giant leap beyond his usual cut and paste efforts. Alas, this thinking Robert was an unregistered commenter.

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By Sepharad, July 19, 2009 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

Back to Iran: has anyone read anything resembling the articles on Iran on which this thread is based in any other paper? Haven’t seen anything in the NYTimes, LATimes, Cairo Times, heard nothing on BBC etc. There have been many pieces on Rafsanjani and the smaller more recent demonstrations, but nothing like Reuters or the Guardian report here.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 19, 2009 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

The people running Israel are fascists - and what an irony that is.
********************************

Diamond, if you’ve followed my posting you’ll see I have CONSISTENTLY condemned the Likud, and would describe Avigdor Lieberman as the paradigm for what Israel’s main problem is. 

While I think you, like FT, throw out the baby with the bath water, I must agree that THIS Israeli administration could well lead them into the abyss, just as the Bush-Cheney regime has us STILL on the brink of falling into that abyss as well.

The reports from IDF vets on actions in Gaza are disturbing.  While I am not bothered by the IDF pounding launch sites of missiles, much of the testimony is far too reminiscent of My Lai thinking.

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By diamond, July 19, 2009 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

You’re right ITW I was referring to Nefesh and that was only some of the insults he hurls around. He also called someone a ‘twit’. Anyone who wants to defend Israel’s behaviour has two choices:  1. lie or 2. hurl insults in the hope of intimidating the critic from revealing anything else Israel has done lately or is planning to do. And Folktruther is absolutely right about the general Israeli population living in a state of fear and being used and manipulated by their leadership. Leaders like Netanyahu and Lieberman will only lead Israelis over a cliff and into the sea. Like lemmings. Nefesh even pretends that there’s no difference between an Israeli and someone Jewish living in Paris, or England or Australia - or Iran. There is a difference. Those people are out of the bubble and can see how self-destructive Israel’s behaviour is. I’ve read letters from Jews who are as critical of Israel as I am and that’s because they can see what’s going on.  One of these people mourned the loss of the hope and the idealism he had once felt about Israel. For him Gaza was the last straw and now he feels that Israel is heading towards being a failed state. Some of the most insightful criticism I’ve read on Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians came from Miriam Margolyes, the British actress, who is Jewish. She said she always took Israel’s side but then she went to Gaza to perform a play. It changed her life and now she is very critical of Israel, not because she wants to see it fail but because she left Gaza shell shocked at the way the Palestinians are forced to live there. Instead of sending critics of Israel to Iran it might make more sense for Nefesh to arrange for Israelis to go to Gaza and actually see what the policies of their state are doing. The people running Israel are fascists - and what an irony that is. Though it certainly explains why they get on so well with the Pentagon and the CIA and America’s power elite.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 19, 2009 at 12:51 pm Link to this comment

Diamond,

I think you have me confused with Nefesh. I don’t think I’ve ever called anyone here a “diseased putz”. “Asshole”, yes, from time to time,  but not “diseased putz”.

“Jewtruther” is also not one of my descriptions of Folktruther.  That’s pure Nefesh and I’m not crazy about it—sounds too much like something one of the neo-Nazis will post whenever they crawl out from under their rocks.

To me, FT’s the “ridiculous arrogant idiotic ignoramous” or, for short, “twit” (don’t worry—FT calls me worse, and I expect it).

Then again, what FT calls Sepharad is truly sickening and totally unsupported.  He claims she’s a Mossad agent and, like a fifth columnist, is cynically bent on doing evil, in support of world-domination Zionist movement.  It’s a disgusting lie, but FT posts it all the time.  Seph usually ignores it…

Everyone plays rough here and sometimes the rules are bent, or even broken outright. So, I suggest if you don’t like the heat….

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By Folktruther, July 19, 2009 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

diamand, it is the Israeli POWER STRUCTURE that has a deathwish, in the sense that imperialist megalomania is the need to win or die.  Since it is dedicated to continuous violence, eventually it will lose a war.  It doesn’t make any ssense from the perspective of the Israeli population, but they are deluded to identify with power by their fears and the hope of a few of them for loot from the Palestinians.

the reason this Zionist drivel is so devoid of reason is that Zionists must justify this barbaric and irrational policy of Israel by deception and rhetoric, to divert attention from Israel’s massacres and torture.  It is the historical unreason and barbarism of Israel, funded by US imperialism, that is the major problem, the Zionist rational is merely ideological froth.

What they would like to do is to censor any objections to Zionism as Aipac and other Zionists do.  Zionists fund an McCarthyite organization headed by Horriwitz that gets, including pays,  students to accuse their professors of anti-Semitism, including Jewish professors.  Including people like Chomsky, etc.  The latest was a Jewish professor at Santa Barbara, Williams.

But they haven’t been able to shut down the learned and mass media entirely, especially abroad, so they are losing the public relations war.  That is why Zionists like Nefish are so strident.  And they will get worse as Israel gets worse under its current leadership.

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By diamond, July 19, 2009 at 2:30 am Link to this comment

‘You have an effective light touch, as does Inherit. I think I take these idiots too seriously then lose my temper, which is just stupid, but I’ve always had a low tolerance for bigotry of any kind, and when it’s directed so virulently against Israel the tolerance pretty much ends.’ Scarlett O’Hara Sepharad
waving that deeeelightful fan in the humidity.

Effective light touch? Would that be ‘diseased putz’ or just plain ‘putz’ or ‘anti-semite’ or ‘Jewtruther’. Yes he does have such a light touch in breathlessly vile abuse and not one intelligent argument to make no matter how you search.  Calling Iran a mass murderer while pretending Israel only slaps people very hard if they get in the way of its land grab but never, ever kills them.  Where’s your famous low tolerance for bigotry Sepharad? Lost in translation. Iran’s real problem is that like Iraq it floats on an ocean of oil but the problem for anyone stupid enough to attack it is that it’s five times as big as Iraq and if attacked will close the Straits of Hormuz sending the cost of oil up into the stratosphere. I know people like Nefesh think all ragheads are the same but Iran is no Iraq. Sometimes I think Israel just simply has a deathwish and with friends like Nefesh it certainly doesn’t need enemies. Iran was always on the neo con ‘to do’ list but only a suicidal country would attack them. I suppose you think they’ll pelt their invaders with flowers and maybe that’s what the ‘uprising’ was all about but my secret tip is this: they won’t. Israel knows that it can’t wipe out Iran’s nuclear capability so any bombing run will be for domestic political consumption and as usual the rest of the world will pay the (oil) price of Israel’s stupidity and self-destructiveness. The idea of America complaining about a stolen election is hilarious in and of itself. Stolen election? They had two, complete with the comical journey of that van in Ohio stuffed with ballots travelling from place to place so no one could count them. The Marx Brothers wrote that election and I’m not entirely convinced that Harpo didn’t father George W. Bush.

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By Sepharad, July 18, 2009 at 10:55 pm Link to this comment

nefesh, Thank you. (And my husband thanks you.) You’ve revived my temporarily wilting spirits. Am usually tougher but was coming down with the flu. Between the chicken soup and your spirited, accurate rejoinders, am feeling much more like myself. And I’ll also find AIPAC on the Net, request the same material, and have a look. BTW, Folktruther’s description of me as criminally insane is only acccrate for 60 seconds after reading one of his worse posts.

On the Israel thread, Sayaret Golani just posted a comment far more honest than his critics (and more measured than I might have been). You have an effective light touch, as does Inherit. I think I take these idiots too seriously then lose my temper, which is just stupid, but I’ve always had a low tolerance for bigotry of any kind, and when it’s directed so virulently against Israel the tolerance pretty much ends.

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By Robert, July 18, 2009 at 7:30 pm Link to this comment

“It’s a Trick, We Always Use It.” (calling people “anti-Semitic”)

“I’m working on a video about how extreme mainstream media is including the tricks used when covering of key domestic issues like health care.

But this video is a response to the trick repeatedly used against this channel in channel comments. It’s the the standard tactic of calling someone “anti-Semitic,” and its used to sabotage anyone who speaks out against the US government policy of supporting immoral and illegal Israeli policies which violate basic human rights. And as you can see, this person suggests using a new word for the same old trick.

Amy Goodman interviews a former Israeli minister and she helps expose this trick used against dissidents, the defamation tactic of calling people “anti-Semitic.”“

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Click on link to view Shulamit Aloni, former Israeli minister, and what she has to say about that same ole tactic of “anti-semitic”. We surely are seeing this tactic being used on a regular basis from the Hasbara/PR agenda group on TD:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUGVPBO9_cA

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By nefesh, July 18, 2009 at 5:50 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, July 18 at 7:42 pm #

And Israel trains its troops on Masada, where nearly a thousand Zealots fighting Rome killed themselves rather than surrounded to be crucified or enslaved, to imprint this fear on the Israel draftee military.  And Zionist help instill this death fear in the American people as well, as truthdig does in this article, to condition the American people for war.

LOL again! You resurrect your own Masada embarrassment. The IDF does not train its soldiers at Masada, you nitwit. No IDF draftee has to have fear of the enemy ‘imprinted’ on him. He or she most likely has family members and friends killed and maimed by Hamas homicide-bombers, and Hizbullah Katyusha rockets fired into cities and towns. And his or her parents likely had to fight to defend their country, too. And since most Israelis are fluent in English, they need only read bloodthirsty bigotry like yours to know the depth of hatred there is for them simply for living as free people in their own sovereign land. It is a very small country, and the horrors of Arab aggression have reached deep into the community. One final thing - do you blame the Jews for resisting the Roman occupiers? Are you suggesting they should have layed down and accepted the crucifixions? Of course they shouldn’t have, and neither will the Jews of Israel lay down for the Hamas and Hezbollah death cults, or any other ones you will find and shill for.

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By nefesh, July 18, 2009 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, July 18 at 7:42 pm #

Which is why the Gops keep emphasizing Terror and fear stimuli to the American people.

Then how do you explain your support of real death cults like Hamas?
==================================

This is what Truthdig did in the title of this article, emphasized death in the title and that Iran is attacking the West, to build support among progressives for attacking Iran.

Well, the Islamist regime is, in fact, murdering its own citizens in the streets of Tehran, among other places.
===================================

the Jewish people deeply fear anialiation for obvious historical reasons and Zionists emphasize the Holocaust and other scare tactics to get them to support violence against Muslims.</blockquote>

When a genocide on the scale and impact occurs within the lifetime of so many Jews, what would you expect Jews to do? Pretend it didn’t happen? That is what your fellow travelers in the Aryan Nations would like to have happen. And here you, the Hitler-quoting, daily Jew-baiting obsessive dip your pen in the poison of bigotry at the very bottom of your barrel.
======================================

This is how Zionists get Jews to support a historically sucicidal no-win policy that must end in massive death.

The only massive death sought is that of the Islamist butchers of hamas and their Jew-phobic supporters like you, Jewtruther. If only you had the balls to go to Gaza and put your money where your mouth is. If only…....
================================

Jews are unconsciously primed to mass killing, including mass killing of Arab children as occurred in Gaza, as a delusive and fraudulent way of warding off their unconscious fear of death.

That’s so sweet of you. You sound just like Goebbels now, pretending to know the Jewish psyche. Jews are killers are they don’t even know it. Don’t stop there, Jew-hater. What about eating Christian babies? Whenever I think you have hit bottom, you keep digging. But since I am, according to you, “unconsciously primed” to kill, I would have a great legal defense if, hypothetically, my AK accidentally discharged a 7.62x39 round in the back of your Hitlerian, Jew-phobic head. Oops! Sorry judge - I was unconsciously primed! He said so himself, that Jewtruther did. 
=====================================

Zionism is a death ideology, not least because it has some reality-based fear to support it.  But Zionists use this irrational fear to provoke irrational policies, policies of mass murder that increase this fear.

LOL You fool. You don’t even know what your Hamas friends are saying loudly, and publicly, do you?
****
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JE13Ak01.html
“As much as you love life, we love death,” Muslim clerics teach; the same formula is found in a Palestinian textbook for second graders.
****
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWfwt0sLYLY
A Hamas elected official explains their human shield strategy and brags about his people’s eagerness to die. “We love death just as you (Zionists/Jews/Israelis) love life.”
***
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2009/01/022540.php?format=print
She offered a chillingly apt understanding of the statement made in 2004 by Hizbollah Secretary General Hassan Nasrallah and later echoed by many Hamas leaders: “We have discovered how to hit the Jews where they are the most vulnerable….We are going to win, because they love life and we love death.” Nasrallah had meant that the Jews loved their own lives while Muslim radicals embraced death in the pursuit of jihad, but in Gaza, it turned out that Jews also cared more for the lives of Arab civilians than did the leaders of Hamas.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

FT, your righteous armor is threadbare and your self-hating Jew neuroses are sticking out all over.  You need a new tailor.

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By Folktruther, July 18, 2009 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment

In 1973, Earnest Becker wrote a book called THE DENIAL OF DEATH. In it he argued that people become terrorfied of imagining their own deaths and the deaths of their loved ones, and adopt ideologies that dissipate this fear.  Such as religious fantasies of life after death.

A group of ivestigators, Sheldon Soloman, etc devised experiments to test this fear of death.  It turns out when people think about death, or about terrorists that cuase death, they geneally become more conservative.  In one study, completing a death questionaire led to dramatic increases in support of the Iraqi war and for Bush.  Which is why the Gops keep emphasizing Terror and fear stimuli to the American people.

This is what Truthdig did in the title of this article, emphasized death in the title and that Iran is attacking the West, to build support among progressives for attacking Iran.

This is what Zionism does incessantly.  the Jewish people deeply fear anialiation for obvious historical reasons and Zionists emphasize the Holocaust and other scare tactics to get them to support violence against Muslims. This is how Zionists get Jews to support a historically sucicidal no-win policy that must end in massive death. 

Jews are unconsciously primed to mass killing, including mass killing of Arab children as occurred in Gaza, as a delusive and fraudulent way of warding off their unconscious fear of death.

Zionism is a death ideology, not least because it has some reality-based fear to support it.  But Zionists use this irrational fear to provoke irrational policies, policies of mass murder that increase this fear. 

And Israel trains its troops on Masada, where nearly a thousand Zealots fighting Rome killed themselves rather than surrounded to be crucified or enslaved, to imprint this fear on the Israel draftee military.  And Zionist help instill this death fear in the American people as well, as truthdig does in this article, to condition the American people for war.

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By nefesh, July 18, 2009 at 4:31 pm Link to this comment

By Sepharad, July 18 at 1:25 am #

What’s worse, I got my very first mailing from AIPAC and threw it away and am considering digging through the trash to see if maybe they are right after all.

I came to the conclusion that most AIPAC members really only want to see an Israel with secure and defensible borders, and with neighbors who no longer threaten (or support those who do) the nation and her people. Further, they will be happy to tell you, on the record, that they want for all people in the region to be able to enjoy the freedom of self-determination and to live in peace with their neighbors. If that means meeting Assad, to name just one Arab despot, and saying publicly “Long Live Syria” and meaning it, if only the Syrian regime would do the same for the Jewish nation next door. And that is the difference, isn’t it? After all, Begin said that and made a durable peace with Egypt, and you can bet he found favor with AIPAC back in the 70s and 80s.

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By nefesh, July 18, 2009 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment

By Sepharad, July 17 at 9:02 pm #

nefesh—I wish you dropped in here more than occasionally. I’m afraid to take the fringe-left as lightly as you do, because some of them are actually in academia, and run around infecting impressionable young students with their anti-Semitic poison. I’m on the campus at UCBerkeley a lot, and “hate-Israel” is widely acceptable. I think it may have something to do with the lure of exoticism

I do not take the fringe-left lightly. Far from it. Still, I can’t help but deride incoherent fools like Jewtruther. The left, unfortunately, has co-opted latent Jew-hatred in it’s smear-job of Israel (and hence Zionism) as a cause celebre of, well, anyone who detests America and freedom as much as, say, Jewtruther and the rest of his lynch mob. They don’t have Communism to promote effectively anymore, so the eternal fallback option is always to scapegoat the Jews. Some things never change. All movements with authoritarianism as the driving force rely on the demonization of Jews at some point: Nazism, Stalin’s Communist regime of terror, white supremacists, the leftist bigotry of Venezuela’s Chavez, Pan-Arab nationalism certainly, and of course the disease of Islamism, which Jewtruther and his sicko friends can’t help but reflexively support and defend - witness the stream of support in their recent posts for the Islamist regime in Tehran. And yes, Berkeley is infected, as is UC Irvine especially. In the fall I routinely cheer when Cal Berkeley’s football team gets crushed smile

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By nefesh, July 18, 2009 at 3:58 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, July 18 at 2:10 pm #

But now, since Jews were massacred, Zionists think it perfectly acceptable to massacre people who had nothing to do with it.

That’s infantile. We shall wait for you to produce supporting documentation to back up your gross generalization and twisted thought process in addition to your lame re-write of history. You tard.
==================================

Anti-Semitism is, especially, a Christian phenomena historically, and in order to blame it on Muslims, the truth about history has to be distorted.

Ooooh, more history lessons from the Hitler-quoting Jewtruther himself. I was hoping you would apply yourself a little more since your Masada embarrassment, but no such luck.

Have a look at some Arab and Muslim antisemitism. I wonder if you have these bookmarked already to inspire your own antisemitic poison, you diseased putz. This is just the tip of the iceberg - there is so much documented Arab and Muslim hatred of Jews out there - here’s a starter kit:

http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#EGYPT
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#IRAQ
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#QATAR
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#SYRIA
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#BAHRAIN
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#JORDAN
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#IRAN
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#SAUDI ARABIA
http://www.adl.org/main_Arab_World/Archive.html#UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

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By Sepharad, July 18, 2009 at 11:31 am Link to this comment

Inherit, too true, too true.

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By Folktruther, July 18, 2009 at 11:10 am Link to this comment

Also, among others, blacks in Ausstralia whose children was stolen the same way Jewish children were stolen by the pope and the Church.

But now, since Jews were massacred, Zionists think it perfectly acceptable to massacre people who had nothing to do with it.  Anti-Semitism is, especially, a Christian phenomena historically, and in order to blame it on Muslims, the truth about history has to be distorted.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 18, 2009 at 5:53 am Link to this comment

Because the one and only good takeaway from the JDL was “Never forget!”

As a student of history, I know that the Holocaust was only unique in some ways, but in most it was nothing more than the culmination of two thousand years since the Diaspora.  Jews have been targets because they were EASY targets for scapegoating and ignorance.

But remember: Jews aren’t alone in this role.  Around the world, scapegoats are always found.  We just been at it longer.

Here’s just a few I can think of besides Jews, in no particular order:

1) Roma (Gypsies)
2) Ibos
3) Jains
4) Kurds
5) Armenians
6) Tutsis
7) Ainu (is that right? The NATIVE Japanese people)
8) Blacks (in America)
9) Latinos/Latinas (In America)
10) Native Americans
11) Ba’hai
12) Sikhs

And I’m sure I missed many, many others.

It’s now trite to say this but…

“Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they AREN’T out to get you!”

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2009 at 10:25 pm Link to this comment

Inherit, of course like you, I oppose and am also a little scared of the nutcases longing for a Greater Israel (as well as those orthodox lunatics burning trash in the streets and throwing rocks because people are driving into a parking garage on Shabbat). As you say, the Islamists are the ones who want to expand the caliphate until Sharia is the law all over the world. But no one is worried about them, just us, and I am beginning to feel so freaking paranoid my husband is begging me to abandon Truthdig.

What’s worse, I got my very first mailing from AIPAC and threw it away and am considering digging through the trash to see if maybe they are right after all.

How do you cope with Folk and Shingo and the rest and still sound relaxed? Why do we—and Israel and every goddammed Israeli in it—have to be perfect? How can they believe anything Hamas or Hezbollah say?What sheltered planet are they living in that they can’t imagine the size of the land and the puny number of Jews vis a vis the vastness of the Arab world, and even the Persians who have now gone crazy too?

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By Robert, July 17, 2009 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

Weekend Edition
July 17-19, 2009

Wiping Arabic Names Off the Map
Israeli Road Signs

By JONATHAN COOK

“Thousands of road signs are the latest front in Israel’s battle to erase Arab heritage from much of the Holy Land.

Israel Katz, the transport minister, announced this week that signs on all major roads in Israel, East Jerusalem and possibly parts of the West Bank would be “standardised”, converting English and Arabic place names into straight transliterations of the Hebrew name.

Currently, road signs include the place name as it is traditionally rendered in all three languages.

Under the new scheme, the Arab identity of important Palestinian communities will be obscured: Jerusalem, or “al Quds” in Arabic, will be Hebraised to “Yerushalayim”; Nazareth, or “al Nasra” in Arabic, the city of Jesus’s childhood, will become “Natzrat”; and Jaffa, the port city after which Palestine’s oranges were named, will be “Yafo”.

Arab leaders are concerned that Mr Katz’s plan offers a foretaste of the demand by Benjamin Netanyahu, Israel’s prime minister, that the Palestinians recognise Israel as a Jewish state.

On Wednesday, Mohammed Sabih, a senior official at the Arab League, called the initiative “racist and dangerous”.

“This decision comes in the framework of a series of steps in Israel aimed at implementing the ‘Jewish State’ slogan on the ground.”

Palestinians in Israel and Jerusalem, meanwhile, have responded with alarm to a policy they believe is designed to make them ever less visible.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook07172009.html

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By Robert, July 17, 2009 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Israel Will Implode

By Gilad Atzmon

“Israel’s oppressive occupation will cause its own demise.”

July 17, 2009

~~~~~~~~~~~

Click link to short video:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23085.htm

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By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2009 at 7:54 pm Link to this comment

Seph, you and I understand that SOME Zionists want to take over all of “Greater Judea” and even we oppose THOSE meglomaniacs.  As for global domination, many of the very fundamental Islamic sects explicitly preach exactly what they accuse Jews of: Advocating and aiming for world domination.

But who gets it dumped on them? Jews!  And people wonder why Jews are paranoid, from the progressive leftists, to Torah ultra-Orthodox.  That is the one common factor you can count on. We’re all paranoid…and for VERY good reasons.

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2009 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, of course Pakistan would be a threat to Israel IF they are overrun by the Taliban, Al Quaeda and homegrown clones such as the idiots who hit that big old hotel and a small Jewish chabad house in India last November. But most Pakistanis have been so worried about India for so long that the government would have to change its orientation completely.

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2009 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

nefesh—I wish you dropped in here more than occasionally. I’m afraid to take the fringe-left as lightly as you do, because some of them are actually in academia, and run around infecting impressionable young students with their anti-Semitic poison. I’m on the campus at UCBerkeley a lot, and “hate-Israel” is widely acceptable. I think it may have something to do with the lure of exoticism, starting with Vanessa Redgrave dancing barefoot in a refugee camp back in the ‘60s. Also the pull of the perceived underdog is huge. Numbers of Jews and numbers of Arabs and comparative acreage is apparently not sufficiently interesting to bother with when calculating underdog status. (The progressive left is not what it used to be, and I miss it. The liberals who haven’t slid into corporate globalism and are rapidly becoming fascist. A few people on this site are still identifiable as progressives, like Inherit the Wind, Shenonymous, KDelphi, Anarcissie, Leefeller, but that’s a pretty small minority. And of them, Inherit is the only one who seems to understand that Israel and Zionists are not out to take over the world.) 

You have a good point re the insecurity of Hamas and other militant Islamists. Reading the NYTimes this a.m., saw a photo of Palestinians in Nablus flocking to see “Pirates of the Caribbean,” read that business is up 7% and that more Palestinians trust Fatah than Hamas, which in the greater picture is a good thing. I sincerely hope all of that makes Hamas even more insecure, though I doubt they’ll free Gaza anytime soon, and Hezbollah too (though Hezbollah seems to be immune to insecurity, always expressing supreme confidence no matter what). In fact, quite apart from my intense hatred of those two groups because they want to wipe Jews from the face of the earth, I would dislike them because they are so supremely self-confident and self-assured and hypocrital and lying and convinced they are going to Paradise no matter what happens. Others may interpret their attitudes differently, but I really do think they don’t CARE what happens as long as they believe they are prevailing, even if it means
watching the world (including them) burn. (Do you think they would relate to the mild suggestion to “get a life”?)

Re cats, perhaps the domesticated ones are stunted a bit, in terms of their wild brethrens’ hunting prowess. Maybe they should all be feral. A woman I once worked with in San Francisco obtained an ocelot for a pet. It caused her and her status-conscious idiot of a husband a lot of grief. Eventually it drove them out of their apartment. (Recently read a T. Coragghsen Boyle story in his “Tooth and Claw” collection that resembled the tale of the unhappy couple and their ferocious ocelot.) I prefer dogs. Preferably Airedales, big poodles, hunting hound dogs, Boston terriers. Smart but not murderous dogs.

Which, come to think of it, are good traits for people, too. Smart but not murderous.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2009 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, July 17 at 7:08 pm #

well, your 8 points about Pakistan are quite right, Inherit, but why they would attack Israel I haven’t a clue.  Actually I have it on good authority that they have developed nuclear powered war canoes and are going to go through the Suez canal and bypass Isreal to hit the New Jersey shore.  Be warned; they’e all anti-semites.
********************************************

Well, why did Iran start spouting and ranting and raving against Israel in 1979, which presented NO threat to them?  It was raw meat for the masses!  Now they are all bureaucrats and bureaucrats (at least the smarter ones) prefer to avoid war as upsetting to their applecart.

I’m not saying such a Pakistan WOULD attack Israel but one must reasonably expect them to use Israel as a scapegoat AT A MINIMUM!

Besides, those canoes are aiming for the curry houses since there are lots of Indians in NJ—and we KNOW they STILL hate the Indians worse than the Israelis.  Besides, the Raritan River is famous for dissolving nuclear powered canoes….

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By Sepharad, July 17, 2009 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, don’t forget that the “reformists” running against Ahmadinejad are not actually that different from him. They wouldn’t stop developing nuclear weapons, they wouldn’t make nice with the U.S. or Israel, but might give their people a little more slack in terms of social freedoms, not backslide into a more primitive repressive mode. It embarrasses them. Before you talk about conspiracies you have to understand the stakes, which appear
to be more relevant to the people living in Iran than other countries and other concerns.

Your understanding of Jewish history at the time of the Zealots is incomplete and out of focus, as if you hastily snagged it from a crib sheet just long enough to make points. The Zealots and many other Jews never surrendered to Rome, and of course there were people would chose to get along and go along, but nowhere were the Romans popular. The Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple—in which they first tried deploying statues of the various gods and goddesses in the Roman pantheon—because they were tired of the continual unrest and uprisings among the ungrateful Jews, thought the loss of the temple would destroy the cohesion of the community and would discourage Jews, which it did when combined with skinning rabbis alive, crucifying as many fighters as they could catch then enslaving their unfortunate relatives. Anyone too cowed to protest continued to live, work and pay endless tributes and taxes. Most of these people dispersed in the countryside and lived as best they could. The scholars and religious remained in Jerusalem.

Against this backdrop the Zealots staged their
last stand on Masada. It is not a rock, FolkT. It’s a very large, very tall flat-topped mountain on which King Herod built a great palace and fortress complex, complete with water and food storage capacities than enabled the Zealots to hold out as long as they did. And the Israeli army doesn’t “train” on it. They induct new IDF members on the top of Masada, burning Hebrew letters saying “Masada will not fall again.”)

The Jews had been willing to cooperate with Rome in some things—but the taxes and tributes had to be reasonable, enough to sustain the people who provided them, the Jews wanted their own army to keep the peace, not a Roman one, and Jewish officials rather than Roman overlords. What was so unreasonable about that? Have you forgotten American history? Ask yourself why WE didn’t want to continue paying taxes and tributes to some stupid king. Do you think the revolution—a chancy undertaking at the time—was a bad idea? Many colonists weren’t exactly enthusiastic, and even many remained loyal to the fricking king. Many of them fought their neighbors during the revolution, others slunk off to became Canada, and others just kept their heads down until the fighting was over. Lucky for Americans, the French came to our aid, a couple decades before they dumped their own king. And lucky for Americans England had such a far-flung empire they couldn’t continue wasting time on a colony so disagreeable and so far away. Too bad the Romans found Israel so geographically handy.

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By Folktruther, July 17, 2009 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

well, your 8 points about Pakistan are quite right, Inherit, but why they would attack Israel I haven’t a clue.  Actually I have it on good authority that they have developed nuclear powered war canoes and are going to go through the Suez canal and bypass Isreal to hit the New Jersey shore.  Be warned; they’e all anti-semites.

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By diamond, July 17, 2009 at 2:58 pm Link to this comment

Nesfesh you forgot to include Ali Baba and the forty thieves in your rogues gallery.A glaring oversight in my opinion. And stand by for the Pakistani invasion of Israel. You saw it here first. And Nefesh get out your calculator: America still claims 100,000 people have died in Iraq as a result of its invasion of that country. Independent sources say around 1,000,000 Iraqis have been killed or injured and four to five million have been made refugees. What kind of shortfall is that? Interesting isn’t it that the Taliban was recruited from the four to five million refugees who had fled Afghanistan when the US backed and funded Muhujideen turned Afghanistan into a wasteland and made them homeless fighting a proxy war for the Americans. They should have known the CIA couldn’t be trusted not to dump them and turn on them once they’d served their purpose. Something Saddam Hussein also learned after fighting another proxy war for the Americans with Iran.

Israel armed Iran during the Iran -Iraq war, only too happy to see two countries it hates killing their citizens in a futile bloodbath- and the US armed both sides. Around a million people died in this war. Do you want me to move on to Latin America where the CIA has overthrown elected governments for years beginning in 1959 with the elected government of Guatemala? On September 11 1973 the CIA, Nixon and Kissinger paid Pinochet and his gangsters $25 million dollars to overthrow the elected government of Salvador Allende, the toll was 30,000 Chileans tortured, raped, thrown out of helicopters, windows, beaten to death while their country was left an economic ruin by the time the gangsters left government, their free market paradise having failed to materialise. Strangely enough. And then there’s Africa…

The point that matters in the end is that Iran has not attacked another country for around 200 years. And Israel? Well, that’s another story entirely. Israel’s mindless aggression almost matches America’s and is well documented. And they have every weapon of mass destruction you can shake a stick at. Gobbledygook. You’re a master.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2009 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, July 17 at 11:49 am #

PAKISTAN is a threat to Israel? well, you’ve done it, Inherit, I’m speechless.
****************************************

Speechless?  Clearly more like BRAINLESS!  Have you completely lost ANY capability for analytical thinking?
1) Pakistan HAS nuclear weapons
2) Iran does not.
3) The Iranian Islamic Republic has been in power for 30 years.  They are a bureaucracy. 
4) The President of Iran, while currently a clown, is usually a fairly thoughtful individual.
5) Pakistan has a history of unstable governments and is continually under attack from radical fundamentalist Moslems (I don’t like the term “Islamist”—too judgmental and neo-racist).
6) The CURRENT Pakistani President’s sole claim to power is being the late-in-life groom to Benizir Bhutto, and is heavily disliked and distrusted.
7) If he is overthrown by the radicals, there will be a radical, possibly Al Qaeda inspired or run power, possessing a nuclear arsenal, a real, proven one.  Imagine Osama Bin Laden or his surrogate with his hands on 50 to 100 nukes.  You think he wouldn’t use them? Guess again!
8) Would they be a threat to Israel? I don’t know, but I DO know they would be, as an inexperienced, radicalized group, they WOULD see the Bomb as a viable offensive weapon, not just a defensive or deterrent weapon.

How you were unable to “untangle” this simple analysis is a mystery to me, FT.

Now let me make it simple:
Pakistan has the only “Islamic Bomb”
Pakistan may be taken over by radicals sworn to destroy Israel….DUHHHH!!!!!!!

Like I said: Brainless

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By nefesh, July 17, 2009 at 10:46 am Link to this comment

By Folktruther, July 17 at 1:25 pm #

while it is true, Omop, that Israel’s sending ships in attack positions against Iran, military’s don’t usually announce ahead of time that these should be seen as serious preparations for attack if they really are going to attack.  this appears to be a provocative public relations gimmick to put pressure on Iran.

What is an “attack position”? Do you use that provocatively-charged term from any expertise in modern naval operations? It was also noted that the Hanit, the Eilat, and the INS sub that made its way through the Suez Canal never went further east than the Red Sea. Where is your “attack position”?

And you even preface your lie with “while it is true”. You know nothing of the sort.

I used to think Cyrena was the Number 1 tard but it’s you, Folktruther.

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By nefesh, July 17, 2009 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

By Inherit The Wind, July 17 at 8:26 am

Nefesh:

Usually, I’m only about 50% to 75% in agreement with you, but in this thread you’ve been hitting grand slams AND throwing a shut-out.

I suspect if I tried harder to appear less strident your percentages would increase. Reasonable goes a long way. But at least I know you read my comments, and that’s nice to know - so thanks.
====================================

Here’s what is wrong with Folktruther and how he thinks: “Israel trains its troops at a rock at Masada.  ‘Masada will not fall again,’ goes the loony refrain. “

There were so many mistakes, pratfalls, and screw-ups in his little history lesson I’m not sure where to begin to deconstruct his queer little fantasy. It didn’t seem to occur to him to ask what the Romans were doing on sovereign Jewish territory in the first place, did it? Does he know it was those same Roman invaders who invented the word Palestine in a failed attempt of ethnic-cleansing of Jewish identity? He doesn’t seem to know that the rock IS Masada - it is a small mesa, actually. And he gets it wrong about IDF soldiers - there is no military training conducted there - it is a national historic site and nominally under the auspices of the governmnet’s antiquities authorities. As a symbol of Jewish resistance to foreign invasion and occupation, Masada’s history holds special significance to Israelis and Jews around the world. The IDF does bring some elite units to Masada for a ceremony at the end of their basic training for the reasons mentioned. The spiritual, archeaological, historical, and symbolic power of place cannot be understated. I have been there and climbed the Roman Ramp, built by the occupiers to use in their final assault.
=============================================

So, to FT, Israel and its army SWEARING to fight to the death and do ANYTHING to prevent the destruction of their nation is .... “loony”.  A reasonable person would expect ANY nation’s military to swear that same oath, because, as Sun-Tzu said, the Art of War leads either to safety or destruction.  There is no “in-between”.

Well, there’s your typical anti-Israel double-standard. The Jews of Israel, according to Folktruther, are to be condemned for organizing for the common defense as would any other sovereign nation. What a tard.
==================================

Yet Palestinians swearing to fight to the death to protect their people AND to destroy Israel is NOT “loony” to FT and “The Contingent”. 
It is this astigmatic view that defines “The Contingent”.

‘Astigmatic’ -  well-said.

Loony? They shill for Hamas as if it was a noble cause.
===================================

Funny thing is, I think that with proper diplomacy, Israel can reduce the Iranian threat of a nuclear attack to near-zero even IF Iran has nuclear weapons.

I wish I could share your optimism regarding the uses and efficacy of diplomacy with the Islamist regime, but I cannot. Look at Obama’s rhetoric and his naive “unclenched fist” appeal. Ahmadinejad makes a mockery of Obama and his approach.

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By Folktruther, July 17, 2009 at 10:25 am Link to this comment

while it is true, Omop, that Israel’s sending ships in attack positions against Iran, military’s don’t usually announce ahead of time that these should be seen as serious preparations for attack if they really are going to attack.  this appears to be a provocative public relations gimmick to put pressure on Iran.

It seems to me that Israel and the US are diverging somewhat as to their operations, Israel being more concerned about nuclear weapons and the US about privatizing Iran oil.  Israel therefore would more favor a bombing attack on Iran (which would be a disaster) while the US appears to favor subversion through terrorism and demonstrations.

It may be that the US sec of defense wants to straighten out with Natanyahu.

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By omop, July 17, 2009 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

Is US suckering Israel or Iran?

Ria Novosti reported on Friday that US Defense Secretary Robert Gates is planning to visit Tel Aviv within the next two weeks to discuss a whole range of international issues, including Tehran’s nuclear case, in secret meetings with the Netanyahu government.

US Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, will reportedly accompany Gates.

The secret meetings come at a time when two Israeli warships, the Hanit and the Eliat, sailed through the Suez Canal within cruise-missile range of Iran earlier in the week.

A senior Israeli defense official, in a Thursday interview with the Times, said the move should be seen as serious preparations for a long-expected Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear sites.

“This is preparation that should be taken seriously. Israel is investing time in preparing itself for the complexity of an attack on Iran,” said the Israeli defense official, who was speaking on condition of anonymity.

“These maneuvers are a message to Iran that Israel will follow up on its threats,” he added.

The move came ten days after a submarine—believed to be nuclear-armed—made a similar crossing and headed from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has brought Israel closer to war with Iran, ever-since he made his politiical comeback in February.

Tel Aviv, the possessor of the sole nuclear arsenal in the Middle East, accuses Iran of secretly enriching weapons-grade uranium to attack Israel. Tehran has asserted that its uranium enrichment is a peaceful drive to produce electricity.

Washington has so far remained undecided in its response to speculations that Israel is gearing up for go-it-alone air strikes on Iranian nuclear facilities.

Vice President Joe Biden, in a recent interview, openly suggested that Washington would not stand in the way of an Israeli attack on Iran.

“Israel can determine for itself… what’s in their interest and what they decide to do relative to Iran and anyone else,” Biden said. “We cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do when they make a determination—if they make a determination—that they’re existentially threatened.”

The remarks were widely interpreted as a long-sought green light for Israel to go ahead and take out Iran’s nuclear infrastructure.

US President Barack Obama was quick to make an attempt to correct the impression, saying that he opposed military action against Iran and instead wanted a diplomatic solution to the nuclear standoff.

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By Folktruther, July 17, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

PAKISTAN is a threat to Israel? well, you’ve done it, Inherit, I’m speechless.

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By Robert, July 17, 2009 at 8:49 am Link to this comment

The Great, International, Demonic, Truly Frightening Iranian Threat

By William Blum

June 07, 2009

“* Iran has no right to nuclear weapons: Yet, there is no international law that says that the US, the UK, Russia, China, Israel, France, Pakistan, and India are entitled to nuclear weapons, but Iran is not. Iran has every reason to feel threatened. In any event, the US intelligence community’s National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of December 2007, “Iran: Nuclear Intentions and Capabilities”, makes a point of saying in bold type and italics: “This NIE does not assume that Iran intends to acquire nuclear weapons.” The report goes on to state: “We judge with high confidence that in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program .”
  * Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier: I have yet to read of Ahmadinejad saying simply, clearly, unambiguously, and unequivocally that he thinks that what we know as the Holocaust never happened. He has instead commented about the peculiarity and injustice of a Holocaust which took place in Europe resulting in a state for the Jews in the Middle East instead of in Europe. Why are the Palestinians paying a price for a German crime? he asks. And he has questioned the figure of six million Jews killed by Nazi Germany, as have many other people of all political stripes.
  * Ahmadinejad has called for violence against Israel: His 2005 remark re “wiping Israel off the map”, besides being a very questionable translation, has been seriously misinterpreted, as evidenced by the fact that the following year he declared: “The Zionist regime will be wiped out soon, the same way the Soviet Union was, and humanity will achieve freedom.”3 Obviously, he was not calling for any kind of violent attack upon Israel, for the dissolution of the Soviet Union took place peacefully.
  * Iran has no right to provide arms to Hamas and Hezbollah: However, the United States, we are assured, has every right to do the same for Israel and Egypt.
  * The fact that Obama says he’s willing to “talk” to some of the “enemies” like Iran more than the Bush administration did sounds good: But one doesn’t have to be too cynical to believe that it will not amount to more than a public relations gimmick. It’s only change of policy that counts. Why doesn’t Obama just state that he would not attack Iran unless Iran first attacked the US or Israel or anyone else? Besides, the Bush administration met with Iran on several occasions.

The following should also be kept in mind: The Washington Post, March 5, 2009, reported: “A senior Israeli official in Washington” has asserted that “Iran would be unlikely to use its missiles in an attack [against Israel] because of the certainty of retaliation.” This was the very last sentence in the article and, according to an extensive Nexis search, did not appear in any other English-language media in the world.

In 2007, in a closed discussion, Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said that in her opinion “Iranian nuclear weapons do not pose an existential threat to Israel.” She “also criticized the exaggerated use that [Israeli] Prime Minister Ehud Olmert is making of the issue of the Iranian bomb, claiming that he is attempting to rally the public around him by playing on its most basic fears.” This appeared in Haaretz.com, October 25, 2007 (print edition October 26), but not in any US media or in any other English-language world media except the BBC citing the Iranian Mehr English-language news agency, October 27.”


http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22782.htm

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By nefesh, July 17, 2009 at 8:48 am Link to this comment

By Sepharad, July 17 at 12:32 am #

You know, I’m wondering if Ahmadinejad’s little outburst wasn’t a sign of weakness, insecurity, chest-pounding because he’s being scorned by many of the clerics who are upset because the crackdown was so brutal—and so visible, becoming more visible by the day despite the best efforts of the goons to keep their murders out of sight.

The tyranny of the Islamists - all of them: Hamas, Hezbollah, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Iranian regime, the Taliban, Al Qaeda - is a manifestation of fear and insecurity. Misogyny, fear of individual freedoms and modernity, fear of ‘the other’, and the inability to cope with change are all trademarks of weakness. Case in point: What could be more frightening to Hamas than to recognize the Jews’ re-establishment of sovereignty? That the Jews have chosen an entirely different path - emancipation of women, real-world knowledge-based education, freedom of expression - political, artistic, religious - is extremely threatening to them. To recognize the Jews’ right to self-determination (read: sogvereignty) would expose their own corruption: without the ultimate scapegoating and raison d’etre of the struggle to destroy Israel, they would have no excuse to cover for their failure to provide for the people, and would be held accountable for their abuses of power. 
=====================================

Maybe the best way to react to his latest is to laugh at him (same as with Folktruther, Ed Harges, and the other not-so-closeted anti-Israel nuts). What he and they say are not true and not very important unless our reactions give them some importance.

I drop by here occasionally because I like to see how the fringe-left disseminates its poison, and also for the comedy - you just can’t get Cyrena or Folktruther on The Comedy Channel!
===========================

Re cats, I don’t like them much as they like to play with living things they are about to kill. Where we live there are a couple of bobcats among other wild creatures and they’re OK. I also respect the big cats—cougars etc. So if I speak French to an animal, it’d be my horse and she’d at least understand the feeling expressed.

Cats do seem to play with their prey, but I wonder if feral cats do that as well. I mean, hunting is instinctive for cats, but also requires practice, trial and error and learned techniques. The typical domesticated housecat doesn’t get a chance to develop hunting skills naturally, so perhaps the play-with-prey behaviors aren’t something that would normally carry through to an adult cat’s behaviorial pattern.

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By Thomas Mc, July 17, 2009 at 7:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All religion is insanity.

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By Inherit The Wind, July 17, 2009 at 5:26 am Link to this comment

Nefesh:

Usually, I’m only about 50% to 75% in agreement with you, but in this thread you’ve been hitting grand slams AND throwing a shut-out.

Here’s what is wrong with Folktruther and how he thinks: “Israel trains its troops at a rock at Masada.  ‘Masada will not fall again,’ goes the loony refrain. “

So, to FT, Israel and its army SWEARING to fight to the death and do ANYTHING to prevent the destruction of their nation is .... “loony”.  A reasonable person would expect ANY nation’s military to swear that same oath, because, as Sun-Tzu said, the Art of War leads either to safety or destruction.  There is no “in-between”.  And, for Israel, they have to walk the razor’s edge everyday to prevent that destruction.

Yet Palestinians swearing to fight to the death to protect their people AND to destroy Israel is NOT “loony” to FT and “The Contingent”. 

It is this astigmatic view that defines “The Contingent”.

Funny thing is, I think that with proper diplomacy, Israel can reduce the Iranian threat of a nuclear attack to near-zero even IF Iran has nuclear weapons. Despite Ahmedinejad’s craziness, I think Pakistan is far, FAR more of a risk to Israel.  Right now, Bhutto’s widower is in charge, but if a similar religious fanatical regime were to take over in Pakistan (not unlikely) I think they would be far less stable, and far more volatile than the regime in Iran, which has 30 years of building bureaucracy…

We have cats and a dog.  I don’t mind fairly well-behaved cats—their cruelty in hunting is instinctive.  Still, many can be good bug catchers—nothing like seeing your tabby catching and savoring a tasty moth! (YECH!)  Of course, dogs, which I LOVE, are far more disgusting in what they’ll eat…so if the cat throws up, the dog is likely to clean it up (DOUBLE YECH!)

We had a dog that understood French. We got her as when a breed-rescue league found her in a shelter and contacted us. She had been imported from Europe, so she understood French commands, even in bad French, like “venez!” and “couche!” (Come!, Lie down!) She died a well-loved old lady who hated cats but adored a kitten we got in her last year. (still have that damn cat).

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By Robert, July 16, 2009 at 11:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In view of the fact the Iranian government has
been arming Shiite militias and thus indirectly
attacking U.S. forces, it would not be unreasonable
if the U.S. armed Iranian freedom fighters with
captured Iraqi weapons.

Iran’s neighbors would find themselves well served by doing likewise.  If the government of Iran continues on its present path, it won’t be long before radioactive fallout poisons the whole region.

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By Robert, July 16, 2009 at 9:45 pm Link to this comment

Israeli Navy in Suez Canal Prepares for Potential Attack on Iran

By Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem

“July 16, 2009 “The Times”—Two Israeli missile class warships have sailed through the Suez Canal ten days after a submarine capable of launching a nuclear missile strike, in preparation for a possible attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities.

The deployment into the Red Sea, confirmed by Israeli officials, was a clear signal that Israel was able to put its strike force within range of Iran at short notice. It came before long-range exercises by the Israeli air force in America later this month and the test of a missile defence shield at a US missile range in the Pacific Ocean.

Israel has strengthened ties with Arab nations who also fear a nuclear-armed Iran. In particular, relations with Egypt have grown increasingly strong this year over the “shared mutual distrust of Iran”, according to one Israeli diplomat. Israeli naval vessels would likely pass through the Suez Canal for an Iranian strike.

“This is preparation that should be taken seriously. Israel is investing time in preparing itself for the complexity of an attack on Iran. These manoeuvres are a message to Iran that Israel will follow up on its threats,” an Israeli defence official said.

It is believed that Israel’s missile-equipped submarines, and its fleet of advanced aircraft, could be used to strike at in excess of a dozen nuclear-related targets more than 800 miles from Israel.

Ahmed Aboul Gheit, the Egyptian Foreign Minister, said that his Government explicitly allowed passage of Israeli vessels, and an Israeli admiral said that the drills were “run regularly with the full co-operation of the Egyptians.”

Two Israeli Saar class missile boats and a Dolphin class submarine have passed through Suez. Israel has six Dolphin-class submarines, three of which are widely believed to carry nuclear missiles.

Israel will also soon test an Arrow interceptor missile on a US missile range in the Pacific Ocean. The system is designed to defend Israel from ballistic missile attacks by Iran and Syria. Lieutenant-General Patrick O’Reilly, the director of the Pentagon’s Missile Defence Agency, said that Israel would test against a target with a range of more than 630 miles (1,000km) — too long for previous Arrow test sites in the eastern Mediterranean.

The Israeli air force, meanwhile, will send F16C fighter jets to participate in exercises at Nellis Air Force base in Nevada this month. Israeli C130 Hercules transport aircraft will also compete in the Rodeo 2009 competition at McChord Air Force base in Washington.

“It is not by chance that Israel is drilling long-range manoeuvres in a public way. This is not a secret operation. This is something that has been published and which will showcase Israel’s abilities,” said an Israeli defence official.

He added that in the past, Israel had run a number of covert long-range drills. A year ago, Israeli jets flew over Greece in one such drill, while in May, reports surfaced that Israeli air force aircraft were staging exercises over Gibraltar. An Israeli attack on a weapons convoy in Sudan bound for militants in the Gaza Strip earlier this year was also seen as a rehearsal for hitting moving convoys.

The exercises come at a time when Western diplomats are offering support for an Israeli strike on Iran in return for Israeli concessions on the formation of a Palestinian state.

If agreed it would make an Israeli strike on Iran realistic “within the year” said one British official.

Diplomats said that Israel had offered concessions on settlement policy, Palestinian land claims and issues with neighboring Arab states, to facilitate a possible strike on Iran.

“Israel has chosen to place the Iranian threat over its settlements,” said a senior European diplomat.”

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article23076.htm

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By Sepharad, July 16, 2009 at 9:32 pm Link to this comment

nefesh, Obviously you’re right. Once in a great while I just cannot resist trying to keep Folktruther focused on reality. Inherit the Wind justs laughs, which is a smarter reaction.

You know, I’m wondering if Ahmadinejad’s little outburst wasn’t a sign of weakness, insecurity, chest-pounding because he’s being scorned by many of the clerics who are upset because the crackdown was so brutal—and so visible, becoming more visible by the day despite the best efforts of the goons to keep their murders out of sight.

Maybe the best way to react to his latest is to laugh at him (same as with Folktruther, Ed Harges, and the other not-so-closeted anti-Israel nuts). What he and they say are not true and not very important unless our reactions give them some importance.

Re cats, I don’t like them much as they like to play with living things they are about to kill. Where we live there are a couple of bobcats among other wild creatures and they’re OK. I also respect the big cats—cougars etc. So if I speak French to an animal, it’d be my horse and she’d at least understand the feeling expressed. (Leefeller once told Folktruther to go talk to his cat.)

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By brewerstroupe, July 16, 2009 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment

Nefesh.

I am old enough to remember the coup that ousted and murdered Allende.

“Thousands were executed, tens of thousands jailed. Chile became a land of torture and repression under General Augusto Pinochet. But U.S. news media shed little light on what caused the coup, and what happened in its wake.

Many reporters took their cues from the Nixon White House, which had special venom for Allende—a Marxist elected to a six-year term as Chile’s president.

Back in 1964, the U.S. had poured $20 million into Chile to help defeat Allende’s first campaign for the presidency. When Allende won the popular vote in 1970, top U.S. officials were furious.”
http://www.jeffcohen.org/docs/mbeat19930908.html


At that time the press reported folk being murdered for expressing their political opinions just as the likes of the egregious Robert Tait in this piece - unsupported by any evidence.

It was tried again in Venezuela:

“The White House and the State Department both claimed that the Chávez government had provoked violence and actions that resulted in the President’s alleged resignation. They also asserted that the Chávez government had fired on unarmed, peaceful protesters…....However, there is a vast amount of evidence that has surfaced since the coup demonstrating that the events on April 11, 2002 were entirely premeditated by a sector of the opposition intent on overthrowing the Chávez government. Furthermore, my own investigations have provided a plethora of evidence proving the U.S. involvement in the coup on various levels.”
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/800

We have seen the various “colour revolutions” in Georgia, Ukraine etc exposed as the result of coordinated and well financed outside influence.

Perhaps you might care to inform me as to why an unsupported article by a known agitprop reporter persuades you that something similar is not happening in Iran. Perhaps you might also tell me what you think happened to the $400 million Congress approved “designed to destabilize the country’s religious leadership”

If nothing else, we can detect extraordinary inflation in the price of coups - $20 million for success in Chile, $400 million for failure in Iran.

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By Folktruther, July 16, 2009 at 5:12 pm Link to this comment

The Zionist concern with Iran is different than that of the US. The US is primarily concerned with privatizing oil companies, now government owned, and getting control of it.  so it’s present strategy is to put in the ‘Reformists’ who identify more with the West and thus are more amenable to US imperalism.

Israel is more concerned with Irani development of nuclear weapons that would neutralize their own.  A few would do this because Isreal is much smaller than Iran.  This nuclear stalemate would then leave the military struggle to conventional weapons and to asymetical ones, giving the Palestinians some defense against Israeli ethinic cleansing.

Since Israel is largely an agent of the US, I assumed that the Zionists would be kept in check.  But present day Zionists are the inheriters of the Zealots that initiated a war in Rome that destroyed the Jewish temple.  This destruction destroyed the temple cult as well, and the rabbanical tradition arose, led by the Pharasees.

the Zealots were loony militarists, that killed both Romans, and the Jews as well who wanted peace with the Romans. The Tulmud refers to them as ‘Biryonim’ which would be translated as violent boors.  Nefesh is a good example of the type. They were not only murderous, they were sucidal.  It was the Zealots that manned the fortress at Masada, and killed themselves, nearly a thousand of them, rather than surrender.  they previous had destroyed the stored food of the Jewish defenders of Jerusulem to make the defenders fight instead of maintaining a defense against the Roman seige.

Israel trains its troops at a rock at Masada.  ‘Masada will not fall again,’ goes the loony refrain.  You have to read some of the military commentary to understand how loony these people are.  they know that they are losing the geostrategic war but they want to do so with ‘pride.’  they are as deranged as Trith, only they spell better.

So it is conceivable that they might actually attack Iran on their own.  As you can see from the posts of Nefesh and Separad, truth means nothing to them.  Worse, life means nothing to them.  they identify with Jewish power like the Zealots did, and will face impossible odds because they are willing to win or die.  And Israel has hundreds of nuclear weapons.

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By nefesh, July 16, 2009 at 4:40 pm Link to this comment

By Sepharad, July 16 at 7:24 pm #

Please don’t drag Zionists/Israel/Jews into this. The actual condition and intentions of the rulers of Iran are potentially too important to play games just now.

You ask too much of him.
I have seen nothing in his repertoire of conspiracy rants to suggest that he is even remotely able to become an apostate to his religion of anti-Zionism.

For him it a matter of faith and fantasy, not fact and reason. You might as well keep pleading with your cat to speak French instead of meow.

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By Sepharad, July 16, 2009 at 4:24 pm Link to this comment

Folktruther, stop for second and be honest with yourself. The Guardian is hardly neocon-friendly, nor is Reuters. I don’t think the facts that 1)the mullah-condoned militias massacred a large but unknown number of protesters and 2) the intoxicated President Ahmadinejad imagines that the power of he and his mullahs and their goon have multiplied ten-fold, so that Iran will soon strike the West in the face so hard it can’t find its way home (whatever the hell that means) comprise a causus belli.

What I do think—and can’t imagine why you would not—is that we had better figure out which parts of what Ahmadinejad is saying are true, which parts are his usual nuttiness, and whether there is any rational response to him.

Please don’t drag Zionists/Israel/Jews into this. The actual condition and intentions of the rulers of Iran are potentially too important to play games just now.

What these stories imply are that the militias have managed to murder such a large number of protesters and rivals for power that not just Ahmadinejad but the mullahs who back him are satisfied that they have not just retained power but increased the power they had and have cowed everyone else in the country into standing down. They may also be feeling good if they are closer to getting their nuclear weapons than we think, but that is uncertain and hard to tell. These feelings and calculations, whether they are correct or not, have greatly emboldened Ahmadinejad and his mullah backers, or they would not have permitted him to spiral into the threatening rhetoric he used (as opposed to his usual rambling, smarmy words with little breakouts of vitriol here and there).

Iran is such a closed society that we don’t really know what’s up. It will be very difficult to figure out the scale of their murders of rivals and protesters, and there isn’t much that we can do about that. It will be just as hard to find out where their nuclear program is, but we had better find a way to ascertain that and do it soon. I don’t think Obama should wait until September or October but put into effect any heavy sanctions and pressure that can be brought to bear on Iran right now. And the Europeans, China and Russia should be pressed to do the same thing. We should also ask the Iranian Americans who still have some knowledge of Iran to participate in getting more intelligence, or point us to sources of same.

Ahmadinejad’s threat of hitting the West is an empty one—given the size of their army, navy and airforce—unless he has added a nuclear component to it, or believes that priming Hezbollah and the Revolutionary Guards to join in a hard push against Israel will have any effect on Western response (which I don’t think it would), with the possible exception of the Americans).

Iran’s internal business is its own business, not ours. But when it’s leaders become so bellicose, we can’t just sit around and try to figure out what they intend to do forever. For awhile, but not long.

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By nefesh, July 16, 2009 at 4:12 pm Link to this comment

By brewerstroupe, July 16 at 7:08 pm #

One might also point out that the picture accompanying this Truthdig story is remarkably similar to this one:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=17946433

...which is of an Ahmadinejad rally.

Odd how the supporters of Ahmadinejad aren’t being murdered for expressing their political opinions.

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By brewerstroupe, July 16, 2009 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

A selection of comments posted on the Guardian story:

Are you really giving your website headline top spot to a story which is essentially one uncorroborated eye witness account?

I’ve got an unnamed woman beside me who’s prepared to go on record saying absolutely anything you like.

Give us a shout if you’re stuck for more copy.

Gosh, the Guardian has not filled its wall of dead and missing and so it invents more untrue lies to fill in the gaps. Journalism is dead in the UK and the Guardian affords no respect - creating fake stories and suppressing others.

....and so on.

One wonders what happened to the hundreds of twitterers who were so evident during the elections. Surely Robert Tait could have found some corroboration among them?

Congress approved nearly half a billion dollars specifically to disrupt the Iranian elections. If a few uncorroborated allegations is the best they can come up with I suggest they got short-changed.

Anyone care to view the uncorroborated reports coming out of Chile during the last days of Allende?

For an example of Mr Tait’s technique, see:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/dec/18/internationaleducationnews.iran

Note that under the headline “Iranian students hide in fear for lives after venting fury at Ahmadinejad”
we are presented with a picture of Ahmadinejad’s supporters.

One might also point out that the picture accompanying this Truthdig story is remarkably similar to this one:
http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?p=17946433

...which is of an Ahmadinejad rally.

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By nefesh, July 16, 2009 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, July 16 at 4:02 pm #

Truthdig can thus pride itself on providing ideogical anmunition to bloodthirsty Zionists like Nefesh, who will shortly turn the ‘Hundreds’ into ‘Thousnads’ and ‘Ten Thousands.’ This is how right wingers sanitize the blood spilled by the US and Israel.

Actually, this is how left-wing terror-apologists try (but fail) to sanitize the blood spilled by the Islamist regime in Tehran, among others (Hamas, Hezbollah…..)

The people of Iran will eventually prevail in securing their freedom despite ayatollah-toads like you.

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By nefesh, July 16, 2009 at 3:14 pm Link to this comment

By Folktruther, July 16 at 4:02 pm #

The ‘Iran Stolen Election’ has firmly joined US Big Truths like “Iraq Weapons of Mass Destructuion’ and ‘Darfur Genicide’ to justify the US-Israeli bombing them, or using terrorists and demonstrators to effect Regime Change to privatise Irani oil as Iraq is now doing.

And here he is, right on cue - LOL
===================================

Truthdig can thus pride itself on providing ideogical anmunition to bloodthirsty Zionists like Nefesh, who will shortly turn the ‘Hundreds’ into ‘Thousnads’ and ‘Ten Thousands.’ This is how right wingers sanitize the blood spilled by the US and Israel.

ba-da-bing - right on cue again - blame those pesky Zionists - LOL!!! (catch a clue: the Basiji are still murdering Iranian civilians, but don’t let that get in the way of your head-up-your-KKK-ass conspiracy mania)
================================

Then it is merely a matter of extending it a large fraction of the US, and expanding this to the earthperson population.  Power relations and truth communication is so rapid now historically that this can now be done in decades rather than the centuries formerly required.

Thank you - you never fail to deliver the goods:

earthperson population - what the fuck?

truth communication is so rapid now historically - that there’s some good writing, boy - LOL (historically, of course)

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By nefesh, July 16, 2009 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment

By MeHere, July 16 at 4:37 pm #

Nefesh:

It’s not a question of “turning a blind eye.” ...when The Contingent (are you a new member?) seizes any opportunity to twist the events in Iran into a crisis of wholly American (and Zionist/Jewish/Israeli) fabrication, that is turning a blind eye..worse, actually, because it becomes a defacto whitewash of one of the world’s worst human rights offenders…The problem is that a) we are not Iranians...who is “we”? Perhaps I have Iranian heritage - there are hundreds of thousands of Iranian-Americans following events in the homeland very closely and doing what they can to help - don’t generalize… and b) we are not giving Iran any help with the crackdowns...if you mean “we Americans” I agree with that - lip service doesn’t count for much with a regime that couldn’t give a rat’s ass what people say - so it is with brutal tyranny - force and the threat of it is the prime motivator, unfortunately….  If we are honest about this, our priority is to be concerned with the crackdowns our own country has been carrying out in various places around the world—either directly or by aiding partners in crime to do it....and there you go, right on cue…

If you hate “moral hypocrisy” ...why the scare-quotes? That is exactly what The Contingent you defend are guilty of, for starters….and believe in democracy, why get so panicky about people expressing their own views?...no panic here, pal, just an odd mix of amusement and distaste for the dogma so entrenched on these pages… Would you support an authoritative regime that forbids that?...that’s a stupid question - I have said nothing to even suggest I advocate limiting freedom of expression…

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By Mary Ann McNeely, July 16, 2009 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment

Ahmadinejad is the George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Jeff Sessions, Glenn Beck, Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity, etc. of Iran.

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By MeHere, July 16, 2009 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

Nefesh:

It’s not a question of “turning a blind eye.”  The problem is that a) we are not Iranians and b) we are not giving Iran any help with the crackdowns.  If we are honest about this, our priority is to be concerned with the crackdowns our own country has been carrying out in various places around the world—either directly or by aiding partners in crime to do it. 

If you hate “moral hypocrisy” and believe in democracy, why get so panicky about people expressing their own views? Would you support an authoritative regime that forbids that?

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By omop, July 16, 2009 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

Truthdig would probably not only increase its readership but add to its studied commentaries by, whenever they deem it appropriate to cover what President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad may have remarked with remarks attributed to Hillary Clinton, John Bolton, Newt Gingrich, Bebe Netanyahu and other neocon/likudmiks.

Its time to acknowledge that the present is the 21st. Century and that the   days of the “sahib/memsahibs” is over.

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By Folktruther, July 16, 2009 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Another illustration that the pseudo-left media is up for fomenting war with Iran to complement the Afpak and Iraqi wars.  It is ‘estimated’ that ‘hundreds’ of people have been killed by Iran, and you don’t need guidence to understand who it is that is doing this ‘estimating.’ 

The ‘Iran Stolen Election’ has firmly joined US Big Truths like “Iraq Weapons of Mass Destructuion’ and ‘Darfur Genicide’ to justify the US-Israeli bombing them, or using terrorists and demonstrators to effect Regime Change to privatise Irani oil as Iraq is now doing.

Truthdig can thus pride itself on providing ideogical anmunition to bloodthirsty Zionists like Nefesh, who will shortly turn the ‘Hundreds’ into ‘Thousnads’ and ‘Ten Thousands.’ This is how right wingers sanitize the blood spilled by the US and Israel.

But we certainly owe a debt to Nefesh for listing members of the Contingent, although he has left many, many out.  I didn’t realize there were so many of us.  We clearly need a more comprehensive list. 

Then it is merely a matter of extending it a large fraction of the US, and expanding this to the earthperson population.  Power relations and truth communication is so rapid now historically that this can now be done in decades rather than the centuries formerly required.

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By nefesh, July 16, 2009 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

Iran Covers Up Deaths And Threatens The West

Posted on Jul 16, 2009

In Iran, it is estimated that hundreds more people than Iranian officials have admitted have died in the heavy military crackdowns on election protesters.

Counting down now - waiting for the Truthdig Contingent to turn a blind eye to the Islamist regime’s mass-murdering whilst blaming the Great Satan (America) and the Little Satan (Israel) - the words of the Islamist Iranian authoritarian regime - in true whack-job far-left tradition.

One wonders why they don’t move to Tehran and join the Basiji themselves. I’ll write the Supreme Leader himself and tell him that Folktruther, Shingo, Robert, KDelphi, Virginia777, Cyrena, Ed Harges, Spiritgirl, and the other Contingent benchwarmers will be signing up to serve the Islamic Revolution as soon as they can. That way they can do the proverbial Hat Trick: 1)stick it to the USA; 2)stick it to Israel (substitute Zionists and Jews as necessary); and 3)fulfill the far-left “truther concensus” requirement (gobbledygook hat tip: Folktruther) of slavish moral hypocrisy.

Carry on, carry on….....

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