nefesh,

“...every nation does this and Israel has the RIGHT to determine who can and cannot be admitted and can apply for citizenship, just like every other nation.”

That Clatter You Heard . . .

. . . . was the sound of nefesh dentures hitting his monitor as he screams impotently at his computer.

Yes it is a good argument Nefesh, because unlike your typical ideological vomit about Jews having exclusive rights to the motherland, or having the right to exist, or the Palestinians never having existed etc.

ITW treats Israel like any other country.

Of course, if Israel is to be regarded as any other country, then the it should be held to account on the issue of the 90+ UN resolutions against it, the countless violations of International law, countless violations of human rights, and illicit nuclear weapons program.

BTW nefesh, among your countless lies, the one about Arabs incessant wars of annihilation against Israel are truly pathetic.  With the exception of 1948 and 1973, Israel started all the wars it has been involved in. 

As for the Jewish nation’s existence, co country in the world has demanded that anyone recognize it as a religious state, so if Israel is to be treated as any other country, why the special treatment.  We know it’s BS don’t we Nefesh?

22 Arab countries have offered to recognize Israel (as per the 1967 borders) and Israel has rejected the offer, so being recognized obviously isn’t that important to Israel.

BTW,  I still stand by the argument that the Jews are not a nation.  They are indeed a collection of co-religionists.

Inherit The Wind, June 19 at 8:19 am wrote:

...every nation does this and Israel has the RIGHT to determine who can and cannot be admitted and can apply for citizenship, just like every other nation.

That was a great post, overall. But, I’m sure you know, the most reasoned argument will fall on deaf ears if the fundamental premise is ignored, Shingo’s being the poster-child rejectionist example: Israel is not like ANY other nation, is illegitimate, has no rights as a nation, and Arabs’ incessant wars of annihilation against her are therefore justified. As you know, that is the root cause of the issue - Arab refusal to accept the Jewish nation’s existence in the neighborhood. One of his posts below even say outright that the Jews are not a nation but a collection of co-religionists. It would be nice if you reminded the nosy bugger that self-determination is a right of ALL people, and by definition is not for others to decide. Carry on, carry on…..........

Fariba Taghavi,

I forgot to mention that the sanctimonious patronization from the likes of Nefesh must be nauseating for you to bear.  He/She would have you believe that America has been nothing but good the people of Iran, because that’s what most Americans believe.

I suspect that Obama’s speech was the first time most Americans had ever heard of Mohammad Mossadegh, let alone the Israel trained Savak.  Very few of them would have a clue about the thousands that perished at their hands.  Most Americans think that the Shah was a benevolent leader who was good for Iran.

Most Americans would not even know that the US backed Iraq in it’s war against Iran, which killed close to a million people.

Most Americans would never have known that the US shot down an Iranian passenger plane in Iranian air space in 1988, killing all 290 passengers on board.

Most Americans aren’t even aware that your country helped the Americans go after Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, only to be shunned in a subsequent speech by George Bush, where he referred to Iran as part of the axis of evil.

Fewer would be aware that your Rafsanjani government made a peace offer, called the Grand Bargain, in 2003, in which Iran proposed to:
- normalizing relations between Tehran and Washington
- cutting ties with Hezbollah and Hamas
- putting Iran’s nuclear power program on the table
- even that Iran would improve relations with Israel.

The same Americans would have no idea that the Bush administration not only snubbed this offer, but condemned the Swiss ambassador for passing on the memo (as was his job).

In another thread, Nefesh (our resident Islamophobe), applauded the US government’s support for terrorist groups like the Mujahedin-e Khalq (which the US State Department lists as a terrorist organization), and jihadist groups like Jundullah (Kaleid Sheik Mohammed’s owl gang) as they set off bobs in Tehran, killing your fellow countrymen.

It must make you want to vomit when you hear the US condemn Iran for supporting so called “terrorist groups”, but then doing it anyway.

Last but not least, Nefesh wants you to know how proud he/she is of the country that invaded your neighbor and killed a million Iraqis, but then has the gall to accuse Iran of meddling in Iraq’s affairs.

That’s the legacy that Nefesh is so proud of.  Who could blame you for being so sick of Americans, their ignorance and their hypocrisy.

I certainly am.

Well said Fariba Taghavi.

nefesh is among those who never gave a crap about Iran or Iranians.  He’s just whooping these events up right now as a way to bash Islam.

nefesh,

I am sure that many Germans in 1939 also saw their nation as courageously fighting tyranny.  Saying that most Americans believe something is not evidence of anything.  For example, most Americans believed Saddam was responsible for the 911 attacks.

The sad fact is that like hubris is alive and well in this country and the previous administration spoke openly about it’s effort sot destabilize Iran.

Bush Authorizes New Covert Action Against Iran
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/05/bush_authorizes.html

May 27th - - Sunday Telegraph - Bush sanctions ‘black ops’ against Iran
http://www.iiss.org/whats-new/iiss-in-the-press/press-coverage-2007/may-2007/bush-sanctions-black-ops-against-iran/

Iran Spying Chief Warns Academics
http://www.iranvajahan.net/cgi-bin/news.pl?l=en&y=2007&m=05&d=30&a=10

All those links were from 2007, so this is hardly news.
You are simply tarred with the right wing jingoism that masks your ignorance and deep seated Islamophobia.  Nor have we made any effrots to mask the fact that we routnely overthrow governments, or at least try to.

Since WWII, the US have been involved in 70 acts of war, directly or indirectly with other states.  It’s well documented.
Since Bush came to office, there as the failed coup in Venezuela. The coup in Haiti.  The failed coup against Hamas in 2007. 

The crocodile tears from the right wing are pathetic.  So you wore black in sympathy and solidarity with those murdered by the regime.  I bet you didn’t wear too much black when Israel slaughtered 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza or 1,300 Lebanese in 2006.

Glenn Greenwald wrote about charlatans like you in his article:

The “Bomb Iran” contingent’s newfound concern for The Iranian People
People like yourself are the same people who have long been advocating a military attack on Iran and the dropping of large numbers of bombs on their country—actions which would result in the slaughter of many of those very same Iranian People.  Now you expect us to believe that you are suddenly concerned for the welfare of Iranians?

Don’t make me laugh.

Fariva Taghabi, point taken. Everything in the world is not about us. Good luck: you and your compatriots are brave. If we can be of any use to you, please tell us how.

Fariba Taghavi, June 18 at 7:00 pm wrote:

You Americans either from the left or the right are so full of yourselves.  Face it in Iranian people’s struggle for freedom and democracy you guys are irrelvant period!

Hold on a minute there, Taghavi. Don’t paint with too broad a brush. What you are seeing here on this website is a peculiar phenomenon of the Far Left, whose central, organizing dogma is that the USA is an imperial power pulling the strings of the world, and is therefore inherently evil. Most Americans do not hold such self-loathing and absurd ideas. Most of us see great promise and hope for the people in Iran as they are showing incredible courage in the face of the black boot of Islamic fascist tyranny in the ayatollah’s regime. I wore black today in sympathy and solidarity with those murdered by the regime as they marched, in black, for freedom. The ugly truth about the part of America you are rightfully indignant is that they offer no real support for speaking (and marching) truth to power in Iran, but they do not represent the majority - believe that.

It is so cute we our covering Iran’s election with such moral scrutiny.

Where was the outrage when Amy Goodman and some of her staff were arrested, brutalized and charged with phony crimes that could have resulted in decades of prison; at the republican convention?  Then there were the tens of thousands that protested with no media coverage and many of them are still in prison.

Additionally, there are millions of citizens that can not vote because we criminalize more of our citizens than any other nation and once they are criminalized they can not vote.  I wonder if there is a correlation, or would that be dismissed by our MSM/republican propaganda machine as a nutty conspiracy theory? 

Everyone knows the bush/cheney terror organizations are behind the protests and trying to get as many innocent Iranians killed as they have killed in Iraq.  After all the more fighting and less oil these two nations produce; the more billions for bush/cheney/Saudi oil cartels.

Well, of course the US has had a big part in this election or at least we spent millions of dollars trying to shape it. When it didn’t go the way it was supposed to, then we organized the protest movement. To keep our propaganda machine well oiled. If that doesn’t work then your guess is as good as mine. But the US government is not a good sport about losing when they are trying to shape foreign policy where there is oil or a nearby Israel.
As for Obama, his change is vague like his speech. You are always wondering what you heard!

The mainstream Progressives are starting to retreat from the US media Big Lie that the landslide election was ‘stolen.’  a truthout piece states that the US is probably manipulating events in Iran, as the Iranians say.  Under Bush Congress funded 4 hundred milliion dollars for a campaign of propaganda, negative news articles, and currency manipulation.  The US is also funding a terrorist organization, Jundullah, Sunni Muslims based in Pakistani Baluchistan to attack within Iran to implement regime change.

Before the election they claimed credit for a sucide bombing of a Shiite mosque killing 25 and injuring 125.  The US condemned the attack publically and continued to fund Jundullah privately, an Obama trademark. The US continues to use Western media to instigate an uprising by the ‘Reformists’, who are typically English speaking. Their signs are in English and Twitter broadcasts only in English; they don’t broadcast in Farsi.

The mainstream Progressives have been successful in deluding the American people.  But they were countered by what might be called the ‘dissident progressives’ who are not permitted access to the American mainstream media.  The Big Lie of a ‘stolen election’ is becoming so obvious that they really have no choice but to back away from it. 

Unfortunately the usual media disinformation is not this clear cut.  And Obama’s deceit is now approaching in quantity and quality Bush’s deceit, since he is continuing his policies under the guise of Change You Can Believe In. Obama is lying more and more openly as he gets comfortable with deceit.
And the mainstream media, and mainstream Progrssives, simply repeat it.

There is no substitute for the population developing its own media to counter the mainstream disinformation.  This is essential to mobilizing the population.  The historical problem is how to get the money to establish it.