There is no doubt in my mind who the real winner of the election is. Ahmadinejad won fair and square, even with the CIA spending all those millions to influence the outcome. We are bad sports when we lose face. Watch out Iran! The US has lost a lot of face.

Shingo, June 17 at 7:36 pm #

The guy will sink to any depths to appeal to the poor and dissenfranchinsed, so it’s possible he was just whipping up hyspteria to get his voteres into the booths.
**********************************

Shingo, ROFLMAO!

Thanks for the morning grin—I nearly spit coffee all over my screen laughing (at least I drink it black—less mess from “spit-takes” that way! )

Of COURSE he’ll sink to any depth—he’s a POLITICIAN! Ignore the context and content of his statements and he sounds just like right-wing nut Re-Thuglicans.  In fact, next to a Michelle Bachman, Ahmedinejad sounds remarkably cogent—but that’s like saying he’s the smartest bear in the zoo, no more.

boggs, Dar & others, Obama is not beating any war drums over Iran. Is practically falling all over himself to not comment, and as for the media, at least the NYTimes is carrying pretty low-key reportage—some of it suggesting Ahmadinejad actually won the election, which I still think is possible, and the rest describing how the Iranian government is responding by clamping down on Net and journalists and cell phones. So what else is new? All totalitarian governments do that, not just the Iranians, but they are the country with the riots hence the counteraction and attenton.

Thanks Sepharad,

I just reading Amos Ozm, A Tale Of Love And Darkness,  and am really enjoying it.

Stay safe.

Shingo, on one of the Israel-related threads I signed on this evening just long enough to give you & Inherit & nefesh the name of a very useful book I had given up on as lost. (Fell behind the shelf and on the floor where it has been a couple years and I’m glad to have it back.) It’s by Omar Massalha, “Towards the Long Promised Peace”. He was Permanent Observer of Palestine at UNESCO from 1980 to 1993, since then a consultant to the group. Also at the time he wrote the book, published in ‘94, was a mnember of exec committee of the Administrative board of the Palestinian Encyclopedia and Higher Council for Palestinian Education, Culture and Science and Secretary-General of the International Association for the Palestinian Cultural Heritage. Plan to reread it on trip. Slightly different point of view than mine but very fair and detailed account of everything before and beyond the beginnings of the Israel-Arab conflict. There are so many books, so much info, difficult to weigh one opinion from another, that I want to go back to this, with its 50 pages of appendices and notes. Am sure I’ve forgotten much of its specifics amidst the deluge of new writings since.

Sharon disengaged from Gaza for more than one reason, but mainly, as I understand it, because he finally listened to the demographics anaylsts and saw that it was past time to start the separation process. I wish he had negotiated the pull-out with the Palestinian leadership at the time instead of doing it unilaterally; would have given Abbas a boost and started a possibly fruitful dialogue. Of all the analyses at the time, none really answered why he did it so fast. Could have been related to his ego vis a vis showing the religious they did not run state policy. Also do not know what induced his stroke then coma. Netanyahu disliked him intensely.

Hate airplanes, but getting to spend a week with our grandchildren is worth it.

Look out Iran when the Americans start talking compassion for the Iranians, it means war is coming down the pipes and we can’t wait to make you into hamburger. Our compassion is often served up with lots of misery.

Don’t worry. Our CIA had it all under control and under contract.
Washington DC is not going to let up on Ahmadinejad until they provoke Iran into a full fledged war.
Thats why they are moving heavy tanks into Afghanistan along the Iran border.
We are nothing but instigators of trouble in other countries. We love to instill unrest and divide the people so they are easier to overpower.
The US politics is the most rotten on the globe.

Inherit The Wind,

Your point about Ahmadinejad is an interesting one, but to be honest, the guy defecates from his mouth so often
that I gave up trying to make sense of his ramblings.

The guy will sink to any depths to appeal to the poor and dissenfranchinsed, so it’s possible he was just whipping up hyspteria to get his voteres into the booths.

One can only surmise ideas and form opinions from what they assimilate, as usual truth may not be part of the assimilation. 

Many people form opinions or beliefs without assimilation or use of reason,  this may be why things are as they are?

We have our own problems here in the good old USA, which would seem to be much more relative to our personal lives and daily existence then who won in Iran? On the other hand,I feel compassion for all my fellow beings who have to endure much worse than I can imagine.

FT:
You’ve given plausible explanations for all my questions except one, the 900 lb gorilla in the room:

Why did Ahmadinejad think he was going to lose?  Why was he making a loser’s excuses and accusations on the eve of the election?

In November, the only thing we didn’t know was how big a landslide Obama would have.  Yet Ahmadinejad’s landslide DWARFED Obama’s yet Ahmadinejad didn’t know????

THAT is the 900 lb gorilla in the room that re-inforces that this election was rigged—but that the President probably didn’t know about it.

Sepharad,
I will take your word for it that Israel is dragged in to unrelated threads, though we seem to cross paths on the Israeli related ones.
Sharon did more than fail to stop the Christian militias massacre at the Shatila refugee camp. He enabled it by ordering the gates to be opened and turning on the lights so that the Phalangists could see what they were doing
I am sure Sharon was a charismatic person.  After all, he apparently had no time mesmerizing Bush Jnr. 
His decision to pull the settlers out of Gaza was a pragmatic one, realizing that the resources used to protect 8000 settlers were better served in the West Bank. I have no way of knowing if there would have been more or less illegal settlements in in the West Bank, but thanks to Dov Weisglass, we do know that Sharon’s goal from the beginning was disengagement and to to suspend the peace process in “formaldehyde”.
Having said that, I would happily swap Sharon for Netanyahu any day.
Have a safe trip.

Shingo, I’m the one who went off-topic this time, but you know it is true that Israel is dragged in to way too many unrelated threads.

There are many people who, like Inherit the Wind, consider Sharon a war criminal for not stopping the Christian militias massacre at the Shatila refugee camp. I’m basing my opinion on how a friend, now in the U.S. but in Lebanon at the time in the IDF, explained it: he said he was not sure the remaining Israeli soldiers in the area could have stopped them, had they wanted to, as most of the Israelis had left, others (like his group) were pulling out crossing the border, though some behind them taking tents down were still were in sight of the camp, and the chain of command was somewhat disrupted.

My opinion of Sharon in general is based on reading his memoirs (“Warrior” might interest you because of its detail, though like many autobiographies, the subject doesn’t say he’s a horrible person—mostly valuable for the way he thought about things, made decisions.), apart from more inclusive histories. But it also impressed me that he, who had been the father of the settlement program, when he was convinced that they were no longer needed as buffer zones, pulled all the settlers out of Gaza. He was reviled by many, and so decided he was no longer philosophically matched to Likud and formed a new party that was centrist. I do think that if he had lived, there would be no more illegal settlements in in the West Bank, a bunch of settlers who resisted would be in jail, and there would be real progress toward a Palestinian state. He seemed to admit to himself that there was no other option for peace, and when he decided to do something it got done. His ability to bull through his ideas is talked about more by his enemies than his friends. Also think there would be progress in the peace process because hee was not only rational but, importantly re the settlement program, an atheist not constrained by the religious connections and concerns. (We’re going to fly back East to see our grandchildren, and I’ll be posting but not sporadically. Am also still under the weather and not brilliantly alert.)

Sepharad,

Which “clique” are blaming the events in Iran on Zionists or Israel?

Not just that the country survived, but is so productive, creative, innovative and has more human rights groups per capita than anywhere else I know of.

I am with you on your choice of Amos Oz, but Sharon? ITW, who would be amonf those who rate him between Attila the Hun and Stalin, calls him a war criminal, though you woudl not doubt perceive him as a moderate.  Were is not for Sharon’s choice to “suspend the peace process in formaldehyde”, we would probably have a Palestinian state by now.

I don’t recall reading any posts that blame Israel for the whole world’s troubles.

My background is progressive liberal, civil rights, Freedom of Information, history, journalist.

The progressives who are anti-Israel recognize that Islamo- and other varieties of fascists, feed off the injustice that Israel inflicts on the Arabs and it’s blatant hypocrisy, not to mention the nauseating double standards that it is allowed to pay by.

It woudl indeed be interesting to see how many of these so called enemies would even exist were it not for Israel’s contribution to conflicts in the region.

nefesh, re your June 15 11:13a.m. post, It’s amazing, isn’t it? A clique among the posters here (Inherit calls them “The Contingent”) can’t focus on anything, including a potential Iranian revolution, without blaming it on Zionists, Israel, etc. And when Israel is actually the subject of an article ... well, you’ll see. I love Israel, part of my family are there (and have been since 1828, running away from some Romanian pogrom or other—my great-grandfather ordered one of his sons to decamp to America so at least one branch would survive). I know it’s not perfect, what country is?, but considering the history it’s amazing, remarkable. Not just that the country survived, but is so productive, creative, innovative and has more human rights groups per capita than anywhere else I know of. If I could choose the prime minister, I think I’d go for Amos Oz, not that he’d want the job. I also liked Ariel Sharon, and was sorry he left us just when we needed someone brave with imagination. Many people on this site would rank him somewhere between Attila the Hun and Stalin.

Too many commenters here see Israel as the cause of the whole world’s troubles. We should be so lucky. But when they’re not ranting anti-Zionism and false flag conspiracies etc., some of them have interesting analyses. My background is progressive liberal, civil rights, Freedom of Information, history, journalist. It continues to amaze me that there are progressives who are anti-Israel (plus some closet anti-Semites)to the extent that it blinds them to the real enemies out there, Islamo- and other varieties of fascists. It’s counter-intuitive. I hope you’ll stay on the site; your comments cheerfully cut right to the truth.

Inherit The Wind,

I’m inclined to agree with you, but after the farcical color coded revolutions of the past few years, I am still cynical about what we are actually being told.

As Glenn Greenwald points out in his blog today, it’s interesting to note how the “Bomb Iran” contingent has suddenly discovered a newfound concern for the Iranian people.

Inherit, Khamainei does not confide in me why he says various things but there are obivous reasons why he would say them:

1.He congratulated the winner before the three days were up because it was a blowout and the results overwelming and obvious.

2.  He ordered an examination of some ballots because there were reasonable reports of irrugularities.  the vote counting in Iranian elections have been judged by most foreign observers as being honest, and he is maintaining that tradition.

3. He did not order a total recount because that would put a forgone conclusion in doubt, opening the conury up to US manipulation, as in the color revolutions.

4.He did not repeat his assertion of a blowout while some of the votes were being re examined.  and why should he, anyway?

But these are merely reasonable answers and to Zionists the real question is: does it sopport or oppose Jewish oppression.  Reason and evidence have nothing to do with it.

According to one honest truther in Iran, the blowout occurred because of Ahmadinehjads defeating Mousavi in three tv debates.  He is a more conjenial compainer and emphasized three issues to his base.

1 religion

2.courruption apparently some of the ayatholloahs are very rich and corrupt.  A leading member of the oppoosition, Rafsanjani, is a billionaire, on the side of the people of course, as billionaires usually are.

3.  Ahmedinejad is for an unyielding defense against American and Israreli empirialism, which has threatened Iran for decades.  The extremely bloody war with Iraq was fostered by the US, as all Iranians know.

that said, I am not a supporter of ahmedinejad, who is part of the oppressing power structure, as are the other candidates.  I am a supporter of truth, which is necessary for the American people to subvert their power delusions.  But here I am talking about something that as a Zionist, you wouldn’t be interested in.

So, FT…Why did Khamanei
1) Congratulate Ahmedenijad on his victory before the legal 3 days were up?
2) Authorize the Council to examine disputed ballot regions?
3) NOT authorize a full recount?
4) NOT stand firm on his assertion that Ahmedenijad won by a landslide?

Of course then there is:
Why did Ahmedenijad complain bitterly that Jews and Hitler were behind his defeat before the polls opened?
Didn’t HE, as President, have access to the BEST polling data available in Iran?

If there were as many blatant discrepancies in ANYTHING in the US you’d be screaming “Conspiracy, Conspiracy, Conspiracy!”

“It doesn’t make much sense for the people to vote AGAINST their interests.”

That’s what the working class and farmers did, vote their interests.

Leefeller, sifting through the smoke and mirrors is NOT impossible, unless you want to be deluded. Ahmedinejad’s support is the peasant and working class, the Reform the rich and university Educted.  ahmedinejad won the last election in 2005 by nearly two thirds of the votes.  the same as this time with a large outpouring of people. 

International observers have stated that within parameters in which all elections are rigged, Iran’s elections are honest.  A few weeks before the election a Rockafeller poll indicated precisely the election outcome.

It is true there has been massive fraud, but it is that of the American media, including Progressive media, like Stephen Zunes of Foreign Policy in Focus, a self-discribed Zionist, that Outraged quoted.  The US attempt to minipulate the election was bungled, and Dennis Ross, the Zionist hawk responsible for US policy for Iran, is being replaced.

In Iran there have been violent attacks on military establishments and bloodshed.  encuraged by the Western media.  But these have been sporadic and the situaion is calm enough for Ahmadinejad to leave the country and attend the economic conference in Russia.

What is emotioinally hard to understand is that the Ameican media can lie so blatantly.  But they do it routinely, to cover up and divert attention from US and Isreali policy.

Outraged, Thanks.

Comprehensive comments you posted are appreciated, sifting through the smoke and mirrors is almost impossible, but your objective posts and links provide food for thought and perk my interest.  For I have a hypothesis on how mass movements are started and as they accelerate for a perceived cause, the fanatics from both sides seem to be addressing perceived grievances and when and if they elevate their cause to a holy cause, one with no reason. This may be textbook mass movement, in the upper degree?

Foreign Policy in Focus

“Anticipating election irregularities, the reformist election campaign, mainly funded by former president Hashemi Rafsanjani, dispatched election monitors to numerous polling stations. According to them, Mousavi received 38.9% of the vote (19 million votes), Mehdi Karroubi 27.3% (13 million votes), and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad 11.6%. Even if these figures are also exaggerated, the large discrepancy with the official version is suspicious. According to U.S. intelligence sources, Ahmadinejad may have actually won the vote, though his total was inflated. Neither Mousavi nor Ahamdinead might have won by a substantial enough margin to avoid a second round of voting. Thus, the government may have decided to exaggerate the figures in favor of Ahmadinejad because most supporters of the other candidates would have cast their vote for Mousavi in a second round…....”

.....“Iran isn’t like North Korea or Egypt, in which elections are a farce and parliaments mere rubberstamps. To commit election fraud to the extent Iran’s military and clerical nomenclature has done was bound to incite mass protests, and a crisis of legitimacy that now may well end the Islamic republic. Even though the inherent contradictions of Iran’s constitution, which combines popular with divine sovereignty, has produced constitutional bodies and political practices that lend themselves to authoritarian rule, Iran has by far the most politically mature society in the region.”

http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/6193

Then there were these perspectives,

“Khonsari said that while the objective of most of the demonstrators was to get rid of Ahmadinejad, they could step up their demands if the government appeared to retreat over the election.

“If it gives way on this particular issue then the people might become emboldened to demand greater freedoms, more open democracy and fewer restrictions imposed by a theocratic state.”

BUT,:

“Robert Fisk, Middle East correspondent for the UK’s Independent newspaper, does not see the protest as a sign that the Iranian people are unhappy with their existing regime, but rather that they want to see the legitimate person in power.

“They don’t want the Shah back, they don’t want to be run by Westerners. This is not a battle over the system of the supreme leader or the Islamic Republic.”

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/06/2009616105827477948.html

Re: Shingo

Your comment: “yet only like the idea when the elections bears results to our liking, ie. the Palestinians electing Hamas in 2006.  That was the first democratic election in the Arab world, yet Israel and Washington punished the Palestinians for voting the wring way.”

2006 was Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeldt and the whole despotic den of theives we had in Washington.  That was then, this is now.

Re: P.T.

Your comment: “The reality is that there are a lot more working class people and farmers in Iran than there are people in the upper classes.  It never made much sense that the opposition could win.”

It doesn’t make much sense for the people to vote AGAINST their interests.  Sure there’s always a handful of idiots anywhere you go. Give “the working class and farmers” mantra a rest…..

The Guardian:
“President Ahmadinejad left Iran to attend a summit in Russia, where he failed to mention the crisis gripping his country.”

Additionally:
“Iranian state-controlled television broadcast pictures of thousands of Ahmadinejad supporters, some waving Iranian flags, gathering at the Vali-ye Asr Square. It had originally been the planned venue for a rally of Mousavi supporters, but those supporting the incumbent president arrived first.

So, “thousands of Ahmadinejad supporters” but reports are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Mousavi supporters.  Iran is now banning foreign journalists, this certainly doesn’t lend creedence to the claims of a
fair election.

“There was no sign of the anger diminishing. “Many of my friends are in prison,” Saman Imani, a student who was beaten by police, said. “Iran is becoming a dictatorship. Ahmadinejad is denying the Holocaust because he’s as brutal as Hitler was.”

“The result of such a crisis now is that the rift among the ... personalities of the revolution is getting deeper,” he said. “It is also between people and their government … a rift between state and the nation. It is the biggest crisis since the revolution.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/16/iran-elections-rally-tehran

The BBC:

“Since that rally, the authorities have imposed tough new restrictions on foreign journalists operating in Tehran - the most sweeping restrictions our correspondent in Tehran, Jon Leyne, says he has ever faced.

Press cards have been declared invalid.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8103577.stm

the former head of the Pakistan military announced on the radio yesterday that they now have documents and undisputed evidence that the CIA spent 400 milliion dollars on the Iran election in support of Moussavi.  So they obviously expected the outcome to be much closer. 

Their agents, and possibly misled Iranians, began attacking military instillations after dark, causing some bloodshed.  One of the leading Ayatollahs, Rafsanjani, was orgainzing for Moussavi, but apparently a coup attempt is now quite unlikely.  Ahmadinejad went off to Russia to the economic conference to dethrone the dollar.

The American Zionist media, including the Progressive media,  is now stuck with the absurity of calling a huge mandate for Ahmadinejad a rigged election, just as they lied about his opinions about the Holocaust and ‘wiping Isreal off the map.’  And it is effective.  Outraged, for example, is convinced, with no evidence at all, that the vote must have been rigged, and with all the evidence against it.  And the American people are not as informed, interested, knowledgeable,  or as intelligent as Outraged.  If she can be duped so easily, so can the American people.

And as P.T. and other commenters have stated, this makes war with Iran more likely, since there will be less pressure on Obama to negoitiate with an illegitimate regime.  the low intensity Irafpak war, the war against, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan, against over 3 hundred million people, will now continue, no doubt, at least until the next presidental election.

A good piece on the election appears today on Counterpunch by Paul Craig Roberts.

After reading and watching much of American media’s coverage of the Iranian presidential election protests, I can’t help but hear the US war machine beating the war drums a little bit louder, and a little bit louder, and a little bit louder…

The pro-Ahmadinejad victory rally was huge.  It is not up to neocons, Zionists, imperialists, adventurers, et cetera to decide who is to govern what country.

The reality is that there are a lot more working class people and farmers in Iran than there are people in the upper classes.  It never made much sense that the opposition could win.

Outraged,

While there were many who were quick to judge this as a rigged outcome, and those of us who were hoping it was a rigged outcome (so that it could be overturned), it is also a measure of our own standing that we accept the legitimate outcome, whether we like it or not.

We often talk about democracy, yet only like the idea when the elections bears results to our liking, ie. the Palestinians electing Hamas in 2006.  That was the first democratic election in the Arab world, yet Israel and Washington punished the Palestinians for voting the wring way.

Re: Shingo

Your comment: “Believe me, I would the thrilled to see Ahmejinedad kicked out and replaced by a moderate.”

Well, that is good news.  If a nation would like to be recognized as A NATION on the world stage, then the “elephant in the room” demands that it ACT as such, and also BE TREATED AS SUCH.

This premise supercedes ideological tenets and DEMANDS that those who would like to be considered as a nation, merely “play by the rules”, so to speak.  If a NATION, any nation (including my own), seeks to establish tenets OUTSIDE of accepted standards, they should be OUSTED from the U.N. and viewed as a possible threat to world peace and order.

All nations have their ideologues, or elements who seek to dismantle the premise of peace between The Peoples of the world.  A measure of trust should be exacted regarding this.  More bluntly, The Iranian People have shown their discontent of the situation, but are working post haste to remedy it.

We, in turn, should not only support their initiative but also allow a measure of patience for the situation to be remedied.  It is OBVIOUS, The People disagree with the accuracy of the election.  We will need, also….. to be patient, at least for a time.

Pres. Obama was correct when asserting that, “The World is watching”.

Outraged et al,

Believe me, I would the thrilled to see Ahmejinedad kicked out and replaced by a moderate.  I think the same could be said for all progressives.

After all, the reality is that the ones who are secretly and not so secretly wishing for his re-election are the right wing, the neocons, and Israeli tacticians who wouldn’t know what to do with themselves without their boogie man.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25627629-15084,00.html

Daniel Pipes, Islamophobe extraordinaire, said in a speech at the Heritage Foundation that he would vote for Ahmadinejad if he could. 

Michael Rubin from the American Enterprise Institute (aka the neocon mothership), suggested to National Review’s Kathryn Jean Lopez it might be better for Ahmadinejad to win, because a loss might give Obama the impression that diplomacy was working.

Last but not lest, there those who want to use Ahmejinedad’s re-election to attack Oabama’s Cairo speech and foreign policy.

So those who are mot afraid of Ahmejinedad losing are the Likudnicks. 

It’s an amazing world we live in.

These comments I sense need exposure.  They are fallicious statements and have no bearing upon reality.  I’m not going to list the commenters specifically, but it needs to be recognized as a lame and unsubstanciated premise.

““There is a possibility that Ahmadinejad’s support among the poor rural voters,”

“the Educated Elite going for the more secular Westerner and the peasant and working class going for Ahmadinejad.”

“There is a possibility that Ahmadinejad’s support among the poor rural voters

“the people of Iran becoming unafraid of their gun-toting, women-stoning, gay-hanging, terror-supporting oppressors.”

”they voted as part of the peasant and working class rather than ethnicity.”

Does any of this SOUND FAMILIAR…?  It seems there are those who like to paint n’ taint, and be outright ABSTRACT when they do.  Yes, yes, yes…. those IGNORANT, POOR, RURAL VOTERS, what will we do about those poor, rural, ignorant voters….?  Hmmmmm…... hello, is there anybody out there…just nod if you can hear me…...

But that wasn’t enough for this “crew”, they went on, check it out:

* “11.4 million Iranians say your full of it. That was the plurality that Ahmadinejad had. The polls prior to the election indicate Ahmadinejad by 2:1 the vote was 2:1. What can you not understand about those facts?”
 
* “Anyone notice how the ‘progressives’ and anti-capitalists here at Truthdig never seem at all concerned about Iranian human rights abuses, only that their golden boy Ahmadinejad”

* “And these hundreds of thousands of Iranians don’t give a rat’s ass about Moussavi. His defrauding was just the catalyst for the people’s anger to finally break through to the surface.”

* “What truly fascinates me is the contingent of terror-appeasers and apologists here - the subtle flavors of paranoia and outright bigotry each of the regular posters possess informs their rants with a unique style (you and I both know who they are).”

* “I think it would be deceiving ourselves to assume Moussavi is substantively different.
His policies can’t be that different than Ahmadinejad’s”

* “We can’t leap to the conclusion there was Florida-style fraud.”

* “But Moussavi, like Ahmadinejad, is a creature of the Ayatollah Khameini and the Revolutionary Guards and the council of mullahs.”

* “We’ll see if the Zionist expansionist lobby uses the election as a pretext to call for a humanitarian bombing of Iran.”

* “What truly fascinates me is the contingent of terror-appeasers and apologists here - the subtle flavors of paranoia and outright bigotry each of the regular posters possess informs their rants with a unique style (you and I both know who they are).”

Hmmmmm….  I say, this is one of those “WHAT’S WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE” conundrums.  Here’s the conundrum:

These SUPPOSED conflicting interests…....AGREE!  What….....?!!!!  No, no, no…. that’s not how the game is played.  Yes, there are rules, and the rules say…..get ready, HEADLINE NEWS AT NINE, OPPOSING SIDES,, DISAGREE!  Yep, they do at that.  Can anyone say propaganda…?  NO, I don’t think this is the gov’ment…. but I’m open to suggestion as to EXACTLY who these people represent.

Okay….. if you can’t say PROPAGANDA…..can you at least enamor…..., TROLLS!

Re: P.T. and Brewerstroupe and of course Shingo too. (did I get everyone….?)

Regarding your WaPo story, and by the way….you forgot about the Politico take, uh oh, I hope you’re not losing your edge.  Is it time for Cialis?

The “Daily Kos” has a take on the take of the Wapo and Politico take.  (take, take, take…..everyone trying to take all the time, did some of these people not go to kindergarten….. because the kindergarten teacher said, “That’s not nice”)

This take certainly leads wondering minds to wander.  Check it out:

“Note that neither piece clearly and concretely grapples with the immense body of evidence that shows that the election was totally rigged: the shutdown of the texting systems in Iran and the turnout of state security forces, the multiple and conflicting vote totals, the accusations from regime-connected officials that the fix was in, the rejection of results by the oversight body specifically elected to oversee the vote count, and the massive protests all across Iran. Rather, each piece simple dismisses the “allegations” without examining them (the Politico piece by the Leveretts is especially ripe—it simply begins “without any evidence” as if reality doesn’t exist). The Leverett piece even piously mentions that Ahmadinejad won by 60% in Azeri land in 2005, without mentioning—as Nate Silver points out—that there were accusations of similar manipulation then as well.

Why the New America Foundation wishes to create the impression that Ahmadinejad won I will leave to the comments to sort out.”

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/6/15/742887/-Not-Full-Disclosure:-Defending-the-Ahmadinejad-Coup-in-the-US-Media

Re: Sepharad

Your comment: “Though I think it’s possible that Ahmadinejad won the election”

I respectfully disagree.  I don’t think it possible AT ALL.  Remember when they were claiming (during the primaries) that Ms. Clinton would “win” PA?  At this very same conjuncture Obama was filling stadiums in PA, by the THOUSANDS and Ms. Clinton was “filling” gymnasiums, in PA, with hundreds.  No… I don’t think it possible or even in our wildest imaginations of fairness to lend ANY plausibility to this line of thought.  The facts do not support it, they simply DON’T.  It’s not “unfair” to tell the truth.

Reports are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS are protesting, Re: Bloomberg,

“June 16 (Bloomberg)—Hundreds of thousands of people marched through Tehran to protest Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s re-election, as the nation’s supreme leader said opposition allegations of vote-rigging should be investigated.

“Our people are after respect, their vote and their rights,” former premier Mir Hossein Mousavi, Ahmadinejad’s main challenger, told supporters in footage shown by BBC Persian television. He clambered on the roof of a car to address the crowds, who defied an Interior Ministry ban to stage the rally.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a9AEQqeXsq28

The People know…. this time The Iranian People.

nefesh,

You are a fascinating piece of Islamphobic work.

Ahmadinejad is no one’s golden boy, and while Iran’s human rights record is hardly sterling, it is positively glowing compared to Israel’s.

“It is about Iranian civilians risking violent beatings and much worse”

You mean like Israel’s government did with peace protesters in Israel?
http://www.blinkx.com/video/west-bank-israeli-soldiers-beat-peace-acivists-at-west-bank-roadblock-protest/L8WptyydZOZ8HfjnC7M8Gw

“His terrorist Hamas and Hezbollah proxies fire missiles at Israel while Hamas is torturing, maiming, and murdering Palestinians in Gaza.”

They are not proxies and never were.
Hamas, who were created by Israel to bgin with, are a Palestinian resistance movement.  Hezbollah were an resistance movement to Israeli occupation and are part of the Lebanese government.  Neither would exist were it not for Israel invading and occupation.

“He sponsored a violent coup d’etat against the elected government in Beirut last year with his Hezbollah militia.”

Wrong.  Hezbollah organized demonstrations against the government, and when the government started shooting at protesters,  Hezbollah responded.

“He sponsors a terrorist insurgency against the elected government of Iraq, while his fanatical proxies shoot and kill American soldiers. “

You mean the soldiers who’s illegal invasion of Iraq led to the deaths of over 1 million Iraqis?

“Popular in Iran? Pull your head out of your zio-phobic ass just this once and watch this video from Tehran today”

11.4 million Iranians say your full of it. That was the plurality that Ahmadinejad had. The polls prior to the election indicate Ahmadinejad by 2:1 the vote was 2:1. What can you not understand about those facts?

nefesh,

You are a typical Zionist loon. 

Please explain to us what hegemonic aggression towards regional neighbors itran has demonstrated in the last 300 years?

Israel has intercontinental-range missiles, so why shouldn’t Iran?

“What truly fascinates me is the contingent of terror-appeasers and apologists here”

I coudln’t agree more.  Take Israel or example. Founded on terrorism by terrorists , who later went on to become the leaders of the terrorist state of Israel.

They even celebrated the 60th anniversary of the terrorist attack on the King David Hotel in 2006.  Their current PM is the only political leader, who said that the 911 attacks were a good thing.

Speaking of bigotry, you have demonstrated ample skill int hat regard.

“Instead, their eyes see Zionists (read: Jews)and false-flag operations, but never the suffering their favorites inflict on their own people and on others.”

You mean as in massacring 1,300 Palestinians over a a space of 3 weeks?

Yes, fascinating indeed.

“No need for your scary Zionist Boogeyman to bomb Iran.”

Let’s hope not.  No more Gazas or Lebanons.

The Washington Post article by the iranian polsters from establishment US foundations state that their polls a few weeks before the elections favored Ahmidinehad by MORE than the 62% he won by, which was the same as his total in the 2005 election.  the age group that favored him most was 18 to 24.  the Ajeris, Moussavi’s ethnic group, were for ajhamdinejad anyway.  they voted as part of the peasant and working class rather than ethnicity.

But as Nefish says, this is not about the election and never was.  The Zionists want war with Iran to cover the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians.  So they simply lie about what happened in the election, just as they lie about what Ahmadinejad said about the Holocaust or about wiping Israel off the map.  What they want is blood and death.  and so they lie like the Gops who also want blood and death. And since Zionism largely controls the American media, the American people are deceived into going to war, as they were in to going to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

But what many progressives don’t realize, is that they are being lied to by the PROGRESSIVE MEDIA which is also controlled or influenced by Zionism.  And this is much more effective in deluding progressives.  One expects Zionists like nefish, Inherit and Sepharad and the other Zionist lemmings to to lie, but many progressives expect the truth from Progressive sites. They often don’t get it.  And this poisons the progressive truth consensus much more than the drivel of Zionists.

Sepharad, June 15 at 10:56 pm wrote:

I think you’re right in identifying this as a revolutionary prelude. Most likely the Ayatollah is seeing this too—he may be wicked religious but he isn’t stupid…...all he is trying to do now is save his position and power.

Scratch a little beneath the thin veneer of ‘Islamic rule’ in Iran and what you find is same modus operandi of all ‘successful’ tyrannical dictatorships - squelching true political expression, organized or otherwise, censorship, hegemonic aggression towards regional neighbors (and beyond if the regime develops truly intercontinental-range missiles), and, when cornered, the use of violence and brutality against the people in a last-ditch effort to stay in power.

What truly fascinates me is the contingent of terror-appeasers and apologists here - the subtle flavors of paranoia and outright bigotry each of the regular posters possess informs their rants with a unique style (you and I both know who they are).

Your erstwhile friends and interlocutors here cannot seem to even acknowledge the truly historic events unfolding right before their eyes. Instead, their eyes see Zionists (read: Jews)and false-flag operations, but never the suffering their favorites inflict on their own people and on others. Fascinating.

P. T., June 15 at 10:54 pm wrote

We’ll see if the Zionist expansionist lobby uses the election as a pretext to call for a humanitarian bombing of Iran.

No need for your scary Zionist Boogeyman to bomb Iran. Look at the torrent of raw and unedited digital media streaming out of Iran right now. The truly fascist regime you are so enamored of is doing a fine job of brutalizing it’s own populace.

Nothing to say on that subject, PT?

nefesh—thanks for the links. I looked at all of them then wandered through the little chinese boxes of commentary and pics you can follow forever.

Though I think it’s possible that Ahmadinejad won the election, I don’t think the people are in the streets fighting cops, getting shot at by militia, and burning cars and motorcycles and buildings just because Moussavi was cheated or lost or even because they expected him to be transformative. I think you’re right in identifying this as a revolutionary prelude. Most likely the Ayatollah is seeing this too—he may be wicked religious but he isn’t stupid. He might just declare that he is choosing Moussavi, or having another election, to save the country because all he is trying to do now is save his position and power. I went through every link you provided, and some of them showed pics of previous riots. If he doesn’t give the desperate people something they might have his head.

Oh—Sepharad is my Hebrew name (means Al Andalus or also Tree of Life); my mother was a real romantic. She also was a pianist and loved Spanish music. I’m Ashkenazi, not Sephardic, but have spent some time in Andalusia doing research in the Archives of the Indies on conquistadors and elsewhere on their connection to the Reconquista and Inquisition. So she picked the right name.

We’ll see if the Zionist expansionist lobby uses the election as a pretext to call for a humanitarian bombing of Iran.

P.T., read your Washington Post link and agree it is somewhat possible that Ahmadinejad won, not just because of their polls but because his supporters—rural poor, extra-conservative religious and socially conservative small town and country people, all the civil servants and Revolutionary Guards and others who Ahmadinejad make sure get patronage (another form of vote-buying)—are not as apt to go out in public and declare their preferences, or boldly run into the streets. Somewhat possible. But there are so many reports of actual interference with the ballots, the polling places, the shut-down of texting, cellphones, internet, networks and satellite coverage that it is at the very least suspicious.  Moussavi’s supporters tend to be well-educated, middle and upper-class city people and university students who like Moussavi’s suave style, the fact that he won’t embarrass them in the international community, and the hope that he will be a bit more liberal.

But I think it would be deceiving ourselves to assume Moussavi is substantively different.
His policies can’t be that different than Ahmadinejad’s—though he might not be as confrontational, he might not be as willing to let his Hezbollah and Hamas dogs off the leash in Israel and Lebanon (surely he, unlike Ahmadinejad, would take into account the meaning of the Lebanese elections, which are in fact free) quite so much, and he might make some slight reforms for women and social behavior. But Moussavi, like Ahmadinejad, is a creature of the Ayatollah Khameini and the Revolutionary Guards and the council of mullahs. I say this with a bit more confidence since reading that the Ayatollah has said he might interfere with this “coup” by declaring Moussavi winner or by rerunning the election (depending on which source you read).

Until Iran is no longer run by the clerics and fascist Guards and militia, there will be little substantive change on the ground. (That’s just my opinion. Admit to being allergic to the all-white or the all-black unqualified statement; truth is usually wandering around lost in the grey areas.)

P. T., June 15 at 10:11 pm wrote:

We can’t leap to the conclusion there was Florida-style fraud.

LOL

Uh, yeah, let’s mull this over - fraud or no fraud? Hanging chads? Bad counting?

Have you not noticed there are hundreds of thousands of Iranian people taking to the streets despite the gunfire and beatings of the Khameini/Ahmadinejad regime’s Basiji gestapo?

PT, catch a clue - there’s a frickin’ revolution going on. Pull your head out of your regime-loving ass and see what a repressed people is doing to try and shake off the yoke of repression.

Yeah, FT, it’s all just a big plot to fool us.  They’ve even corrupted Fisk into false-flagging with them.

Thank GOD we have you with your divine revelations to bring us the “truth”.

You are being unusually idiotic today.

We can’t leap to the conclusion there was Florida-style fraud.

Anyone notice how the ‘progressives’ and anti-capitalists here at Truthdig never seem at all concerned about Iranian human rights abuses, only that their golden boy Ahmadinejad (figurehead of the unelected and permanent ruler of Iran) Ali Khameini is judged the ‘winner’ of a meaningless election wherein there is no real opposition to the regime.

Funny, that.

You can see it right here on this thread.

In an article in the Washington Post, a couple of analysts say Ahmadinejad probably did actually win.  Click on http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/14/AR2009061401757.html

brewerstroupe -

This is not about the election, and never really was.
It is about Iranian civilians risking violent beatings and much worse (see video I linked to below) by the thousands for standing up to the regime in the streets and treating it as the enemy of the people it clearly is.

Unelected “Supreme Leader-For-Life” Ali Khamenei’s police and the Basiji militia are using violence and terror to suppress the Iranian people at home. His terrorist Hamas and Hezbollah proxies fire missiles at Israel while Hamas is torturing, maiming, and murdering Palestinians in Gaza. He sponsored a violent coup d’etat against the elected government in Beirut last year with his Hezbollah militia. He sponsors a terrorist insurgency against the elected government of Iraq, while his fanatical proxies shoot and kill American soldiers.

No, this is not about the farcical election. And these hundreds of thousands of Iranians don’t give a rat’s ass about Moussavi. His defrauding was just the catalyst for the people’s anger to finally break through to the surface.

Maybe President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad could purchase for the Iranians some of those strongarm diabolic voting machines, so no questions would be asked?

“The election results in Iran may reflect the will of the Iranian people. Many experts are claiming that the margin of victory of incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was the result of fraud or manipulation, but our nationwide public opinion survey of Iranians three weeks before the vote showed Ahmadinejad leading by a more than 2 to 1 margin — greater than his actual apparent margin of victory in Friday’s election. “

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/06/14/AR2009061401757_pf.html

“NCRI - Students from the University of Babolsar (northern Iran) raised questions about the role of the Iranian regime’s former prime minister, Mirhossein Moussavi, in the 1988 massacre of political prisoners during his visit to the university on Monday, May 4, 2009.

On Monday, one of the students asked Moussavi about kangaroo trials that issued judgments in the span of a few minutes and led to the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988. The student added: At the time, you were the prime minister. You were the third most powerful person in the country. What do you have to say now about your silence back then when all this was taking place? Was your silence a sign of endorsement? We want to stress again that you should explicitly respond to this question.”

http://ncr-iran.org/content/view/6314/1/

Sepharad -

One more thought - have a look at the video I linked to a couple of posts ago - here’s the link again - it is chilling:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=26415347001

You will see a Basiji gunman pumping rapid-fire rounds of AK47 fire into an unarmed crowd of people, from a rooftop, no less - like shooting fish in a barrel.

Do you honestly think a regime that employs thugs like this Basiji gunman to maintain power through fear and intimidation (and yes, murder - we know at least one man was murdered in this incident) would investigate election fraud in a search for truth????

Seriously now…....

Sepharad, June 15 at 6:41 pm wrote:

That the Ayatollah’s call for an investigation of the election came so long after his own statement that Iran had its president and rivals and demonstrators should accept it and go home raises the suspicion that embarrassment, not a real search for actual election results, was his motive. I doubt the inspection will be rigorous, or any more fair, that the election itself.

I suspect Khamenei’s call for a review of the election results is motivated entirely by fear of the swelling volcano which is erupting on the streets around his capital city, and not embarrassment. Repressive regimes like Iran’s (and North Korea’s, for that matter) don’t care about embarrassment - they care about losing their iron grip on power. The adage is true - when the people begin to lose their fear of their oppressors is when their oppressors should begin fearing for their lives. Recall what happened to Ceaucescu in Romania, and of course Mussolini’s body swinging upside down from the power line in Rome. If we and the good people of Iran are lucky, then Khamenei, Ahmadinejad, and the Revolutionary Guards and Basiji will share similar fates.

BTW - I like your name - reminds me of Spain

Folktruther, June 15 at 5:50 pm wrote:

the American media can simply ignore facts, like the Zionists do,and print anything…..The US and the Zionists simply don’t want to acknowldege that he is popular in Iran, partially for baiting the US and Israel

Popular in Iran? Pull your head out of your zio-phobic ass just this once and watch this video from Tehran today, where your beloved Ahmadinejad’s Basiji are shooting AK47s into crowds of unarmed protesters:

http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid1184614595?bctid=26415347001

What you are seeing there are the people of Iran becoming unafraid of their gun-toting, women-stoning, gay-hanging, terror-supporting oppressors. And that, Volk-Liar, is when tyrannical regimes such as Iran’s theocracy with its front-man Ahmadinejad should start being afraid - very afraid.

Folktruther, this article includes comments by TD’s Robert Fisk, who saw the crowds running down the streets and expressed surprised that anyone was shooting into one. I watched various videos showing those running crowds, thick and jammed up and running with anger and fear on their faces. Saw a lot of cops beating people with metal batons, heard a few cracks that sounded like shots but saw none. Why would Fisk make anything up?

As for the election, the people who doubted its honesty talk about pre-election polls, an employee in the Ministry of the Interior said he saw ballots not being counted, just written down three to one in favor of Ahmadinejad. Text messaging was shot down, Moussavi’s headquarters shuttered ... things the government would hardly think necessary if their guy was winning or even close to it.

There is a possibility that Ahmadinejad’s support among the poor rural voters, the religious conservatives, and the many beneficiaries of his excessive patronage inside the government and out was greater than progressives realized, but some of the projections and polls did include those segments. It seems unlikely that pollsters in Iran would be so far off the mark. It’s also possible that conservative religous and rural voters were more shy and not as noisy and articulate and open about their preferences as the country’s progressives, but again that wouldn’t change poll predictions. Also, Ahmadinejad even won largely in Moussavi’s hometown, a Turkic area, which would be extremely unlikely.

That the Ayatollah’s call for an investigation of the election came so long after his own statement that Iran had its president and rivals and demonstraters should accept it and go home raises the suspicion that embarrassment, not a real search for actual election results, was his motive. I doubt the inspection will be rigorous, or any more fair, that the election itself.

Watching the Iranians take to the streets putting themselves in danger, however, I wondered why most Americans didn’t have the courage to do the same thing when Bush stole the election—twice. That Gore backed down shamefully and Kerry too refused to make an issue of it (unlike the brave Moussavi and other reform candidates) doesn’t speak well of our society. And our and our politicians’ timidity won’t protect us from fascism any more than the Ayatollah will protect the Iranian people.

oh my, yet ANOTHER article on Iran on Truthdig.

I am wondering, what is happening in Finland, Australia, the Dominican Republic, Paraguay and on and on and on,

but who knows??

All Truthdig and our MSM can report on are,

Iran, North Korea and China.

hmmm… I wonder why?

the American media can simply ignore facts, like the Zionists do,and print anything.  The other truthdig article stated that Ahmadinejad, in order to win that big, would have to have converted the reformers support.

No.  He won 62% of the votes last time he ran, in 2005.  He repeated this time, as incombents tend to do.  It was a class election, the Educated Elite going for the more secular Westerner and the peasant and working class going for Ahmadinejad.  The US and the Zionists simply don’t want to acknowldege that he is popular in Iran, partially for baiting the US and Israel.

Ahmejinedad Apologists

Yeah , him too…..Ahmadinejad

Sorry

Ahmejinedad Apologists: You can’t spin it anymore.