KDelphi, May 25 at 11:37 pm #

You attempt to reduce this issue to two choices, hunting or defending oneself against ag ovt. Sorry, it just isnt that simplistic.

ardee—I would trust that supporting the Constitution, supports the system.

I know that anarchists and others think that they are being independent when they load up on guns. But, youre just buying false security, to my mind.

If youre trying to hunt, that will work…to defend yourself against the govt with a handgun is nonsense.

But, thats just my opinion. Dont shoot me..lol. Kidding honestly.

KDelphi, May 25 at 3:06 pm #

I trust you understand I was not supporting either the system or the Damn Democrats.

Heres one good for a laugh at sell-out Dems, even though we pay the price of both parts of this corporate bill…

Coburn got the Dems to put the guns amendment in there and then VOTED AGAINST THE BILL!!
LOL!@

ardee—but, look at the vote—-the Dems didnt need it. Its pandering to wealthy gun lobbies and you know it.

In the HOuse, it was 361-64. There is no excuse for it, and, the “credit card bil” is a joke.

Good job Dems!! (or is it GOP, or is it..oh never mind)
Republicans Put Democrats On Defensive
by David Welna and Jacki Lyden

All Things Considered, May 23, 2009 · For a Republican Party with no majority, no leader and no brand name, it was a pretty good week on Capitol Hill. Democrats joined the GOP in putting the brakes on President Obama’s plan to close the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, and Republicans successfully attached pro-gun legislation to a popular credit card bill.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104498596

I should be a Democrat again, now why?? What issues would you say that they are most “standout?” on?? Someone , please explain these radical differences that are supposed to garner my votes.

KDelphi, May 25 at 2:00 pm #

Why are amendments added to bills, especially those that have no seeming relationship to the bill itself?

Why indeed…sometimes it is used as a poison pill to get the thing vetoed , or assured of coming back into committee when the other House fails to pass it because of that amendment. It is , in fact, a pretty normal part of the Legislative process and many bills have many riders added to them, some pork, some politics.

Stupid system really.

OKI. I watched my drunken mother almost kill my sister one Xmas with one, but, they still kept it around for “protection”. But, then, kids dont get to pick parents…

Outraged—I’d try to help you out, but I almost died on one of those, and, if I hadnt, I wouldve ended up like the old guys I saw there..didnt want to.

BUT—can anyone tell me WHY this public parks thing is thrown into a credit card bill—to get back on topic!! Or dont you care how it gets there as long as you get what you want?

Does this mean we can now go gunnin’ for Yogi and that totally obnoxious Boo-Boo?

KDelphi, May 25 at 2:54 am #

Maybe I shouldnt have been hanging out at Harley Swap Meets, but, I grew up a certain way. Now, I stay as far from guns as I can get, which, is not very far lately.
.................

K, Im looking for a new seat for my ‘04 FLHRCI….Oh never mind.

An armed populace scares some, an unarmed and unthinking one scares the bejeesus out of me. I think it may have more to do with our need to evolve as a species, to be less easily railroaded than our access to guns that is the real problem.

Re: Kdelphi

Your comment: “Outraged—I grew up in a rural aread, so some of the people I was talking about were very “down home” as they call it where I gerw up…I have to admit, MOST…but, it only took a few guys to get drunk and threaten all of us, many times. what was I supposed to do? Call the law?? lol Maybe I shouldnt have been hanging out at Harley Swap Meets, but, I grew up a certain way. Now, I stay as far from guns as I can get, which, is not very far lately.”

I did not grow up in a rural area.  More of a company “village”, I guess…LOL   I grew up south of South Milwaukee, which at the time was… semi rural (sixties - early seventies).  But to live where I lived, you had to work at the glue company.  All the houses, which us renters…. rented, were owned by the company itself.  Cheap rent, dirt cheap.  My father was a diesel mechanic, my mother….. apparently, a domestic goddess…..LOL.

This same area was later annexed to the “City of Oak Creek” something “us locals”, did NOT endorse, all types of extraneous rules then.  (including that suck ass cop that NOW, “came around”, attempting to get us kids to rat out anyone we might know for ANYTHING they might consider….criminal…even as children, we understood that BS, the REAL CRIMINALS, don’t worry… they were down for the count, good people don’t mess around with superflous antics)  Before that, “us people” ran that burg….. don’t mess with us…... we’ll mess with you, this was the mantra but also for the most, the reality.  The “company”, did not run “this enclave”, we did.  Oh…there were the battles with the company too, but that was another matter, THAT was business…. and THIS was our LIVES.  Two VERY separate things, much of which… at the time, was protected by FEDERAL LAW.

Good thing…, federal law that is, when it protects THE PEOPLE.  After that, well…that’s a long and involved story, but… for the record, I grew up in a house with two rifles (unloaded and sheathed) behind my parents’ bedroom door, I don’t recall the exact words, in fact I don’t know as if I EVER did know them, but I KNEW THIS…. touch them and YOU LOSE YOUR LIFE.  Yep, that’s what I KNEW.  I didn’t touch…and neither did ANY of my fourteen brothers and sisters.

Outraged—I grew up in a rural aread, so some of the people I was talking about were very “down home” as they call it where I gerw up…I have to admit, MOST…but, it only took a few guys to get drunk and threaten all of us, many times. what was I supposed to do? Call the law?? lol Maybe I shouldnt have been hanging out at Harley Swap Meets, but, I grew up a certain way. Now, I stay as far from guns as I can get, which, is not very far lately.

Franmk—to be honest, I dont give a dman enough to look up stats again—-been doing it for years. I’m sure that you could find stats to prove your points, too.

LIke I said before, arguing with peopel who believe that the right to own a gun and carry it anywhere, supercedes my right to not get shot, have won the argument. There is not point. People who are sick of fricking idiots pointing guns in their faces (those of us who have had it done to us) have no representation, so dont sweat it, peeps.

Carry mini nukes, just to be sure that no one attacks you or something, and then protest shooting people overseas….I realize that alot more has to change than “responsible” gun ownership here but, we are much too violent a society, and, the glorifying of it, while people come home in boxes, makes me sick.

Lets keep the indefinate detetntion going, so we “
wont get hurt”, but, let Joe Jackass carry a semi-auto concealed…really smart. Which scenario do you think it more likely to be dangerous to you? What are the chances?
“Iran will get nukes” (gasp!), but, dont worry about all the young, males getting shot everyday…just draft them , I guess.

We’re all gonna die, folks, but, simple measures to see that people dont accidentally die would seem to be in order first, like natl heatlh care for your gunshot wounds.

BTW—anybody remember the topic, before the NRA took over?? Yeah, wtf is this doing in a CREDIT CARD BILL?

Pure pandering…is Obama gonna get out the silly hunting suit, too?

Murder rates and CCW laws:

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html

In 1987, when Florida enacted such legislation, critics warned that the “Sunshine State” would become the “Gunshine State.” Contrary to their predictions, homicide rates dropped faster than the national average. Further, through 1997, only one permit holder out of the over 350,000 permits issued, was convicted of homicide.  If the rest of the country behaved as Florida’s permit holders did, the U.S. would have the lowest homicide rate in the world.

The Lott-Mustard Report

John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, “Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies.
(Source: “More Guns, Less Violent Crime”, Professor John R. Lott, Jr., The Wall Street Journal, August 28, 1996, (The Rule of Law column).

http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html

Gun Control’s Twisted Outcome
Restricting firearms has helped make England more crime-ridden than the U.S.

Joyce Lee Malcolm | November 2002 Print Edition

On a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, “theirs is worse than ours.” The response was swift and sharp. “Have a Nice Daydream,” The Mirror, a London daily, shot back, reporting: “Britain reacted with fury and disbelief last night to claims by American newsmen that crime and violence are worse here than in the US.” But sandwiched between the article’s battery of official denials—“totally misleading,” “a huge over-simplification,” “astounding and outrageous”—and a compilation of lurid crimes from “the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic where every other car is carrying a gun,” The Mirror conceded that the CBS anchorman was correct. Except for murder and rape, it admitted, “Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes.”

In the two years since Dan Rather was so roundly rebuked, violence in England has gotten markedly worse. Over the course of a few days in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year’s Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice.

None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the “gold standard” of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring “a restraint on personal liberty that seems, in most civilised countries, essential to the happiness of others,” a policy the magazine found at odds with “America’s Vigilante Values.” The safety of English people has been staked on the thesis that fewer private guns means less crime.

......

KDelphi, you say the murder rated soared after concealed carry laws were passed?

I’d like to verify that claim. What city do you live in?

A point I just noticed, may not mean much, but the article is titled ‘House OKs Handguns in National Parks’ but my email notices of comments to the article is headlined as ‘house OKs shooting in national parks’ and that sounds just a bit more suspious to me as to have gun totin renegades just whip out their gun and start blasting and spraying parks with bullets will eventually end up with someone eatin lead and at most dying. That would or should bring a quick end or a rule for discharging a gun in a park. I really think is ill done as there are far too many irresponsible people who carry guns and it would not take much to make anything a target to shoot at in a park, just for fun, you know.

I don’t go to national parks or state parks to listen to gun fire or see the beauty of a park shot full of holes.

Here’s link from wapost:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/20/AR2009052003613.html

The issue is not gun ownership, I believe. The issue is the way the right frames the position of the opposition on the subject.

If one reads history one notes that the Democrats have been in charge of the Executive and the Legislature, both individually and collectively, on many occasions. Yet we still have our guns, do we not? Yet no one from the Democrats stands to note this fact, giving the lie to the right’s assertion that we should fear our guns being taken away from us.

Why do our politicians so fear the truth?

While I fully understand and appreciate the 2nd Amendment as an integral part of our freedoms, just like the other 9 in the BOR, plus the 14th Amend, there is a practical side.

If you routinely carry a handgun and it’s NOT part of your job (LEO, security officer, soldier), sooner or later you’ll find a reason to use it.  That’s just the way people are. 

I’ve had one handgun pointed at me in my life, and it was by an idiot who shouldn’t have been licensed to carry a water pistol.  He didn’t shoot me, (obviously) but he could have.  He pulled it in reaction to my whipping out a matte knife—to trim a cabinet we were installing—something done a hundred times a day if you are in the building trades as I was 30 years ago.

It is PRECISELY asshole pinheads like that who scare me: People who pull a gun because they have it, because of a stupid perceived threat that a single brain cell would tell him wasn’t there.

Re: Kdephi

Your comments: “If I thought that most of the people who were burying up guns were going to use them to defend civil liberties and illegalities committed by the govt, I would be for it. Thats just not the case. Certainly not in urban areas.

I know plenty about “guns”. More than I ever wanted to…how many people here, just curious, live in a blighted urban area? Because if you live in the suburbs, YOU dont know. Ever had to shoot at anyone? Been shot at? If you werent in the military, maybe you should join…”

You highlight both sides of the issue within these two quotes.  This is the source of all the problems.  People are not addressing each others concerns.  I agree, there’s a huge difference between owning a gun in a large city, especially a blighted area as there is regarding owning a gun in a very rural area.

Rural REGISTERED gun owners (and some of suburbia) don’t engage in the same types of behavior with their guns.  The MAJORITY (you always have a few nuts anywhere you go….David Koresh, Randy Weaver), are cautious and safe when handling their guns.  To claim they “endorse violence”, because they own a gun sounds completely outlandish to them and so far from their true stance as to be bizarre.

This portion of your comment is inaccurate, “If I thought that most of the people who were buying up guns were going to use them to defend civil liberties and illegalities committed by the govt, I would be for it. Thats just not the case.”  In rural areas, MANY buy guns SPECIFICALLY for this reason, they absolutely do.  I can’t tell you how many times, through the years, I’ve heard comments to that effect.

The problem here though, is that there truly are two sets of these people.  There are your neo-nazi types and then there are those who have a very civil libertarian point of view (the later are not necessarily, repub, dems, or libertarians politically though).  Still….yes, I do believe they will fight for this country and I also believe that any type of strict regulation (right now) would be dangerous.  We do not have control of our government, money is STILL flying out the back door.  These civil libertarian minded people come from all walks of life, have various political views and I believe will defend their country against fascism of any fashion.

My guesstimation is that the one and only way that gun control will work is by the taking back of the government by the people.  Gun control laws will have little effect, and will be as meaningless as registering a gun is to a criminal who totes one.

BlueEagle—who do you think that the primary employer of these mercenary armies is?? Do you not know that they were at both GOP and Dem Conventions? Have you seen how these guys are armed, and, who they are, from those who worked for Pinochet, etc? If you get into a full armed struggle with them,. you will lose.

As for defending the Constitutions, I dont know if you are a land-owning, Anglo Saxon male, but, if not, and the Constitution , as written, were in effect,you would not be a citizen. We need a Constitutional convention,I believe, but, until we can follow the basic tenats of the original (with amendments), it is rather useless to suggest. If I thought that most of the people who were burying up guns were going to use them to defend civil liberties and illegallities committed by the govt, I would be for it. Thats just not the case. Certainly not in urban areas.

I think that many who approve “the right to bear any arms” live in rural and suburban areas. They, and most people they know, use their arms for hunting (dont like it, but, it beats factory farming), and, self defense. Some just stick them on the wall. Most are not afraid to have their neighbors know how many guns they have.

The only way to fight the govt is with numbers and refusals to obey.

Cathy—I had the same experiences with SSRIs as well as Chantix (to stop smoking) and Tamiflu (made me very suicidal).

Outraged—I would wish no nukes, also. But, that will be very difficult, as long as we condone other types of violences, “in defense of peropery”...it just is not borne out by stats, that that is what people are doing with them, you know?

I know that it is considered a ‘sacrad” right here, and, most people I know around here, agree with that. They see others carrying, and, know that many are concealed, and, they cry self defense. What they dont stop to think about (and many are very young), is that, if the person you are afraid of was more regulated in weapon use, you would nt need one. It puts those that wish to NOT own a weapon at a severe disadvantage.

Opposing violent nukes, while allowing your neighbors to carry semi-automatics, seems a little crazy to me..its all violence and begins with the smaller stuff, it seems to me.Alot more people are killed every year by handguns and automatics than nukes.(well, alot more are killed by a lack of health care, but, that is another form of violence we seem to have almost no control over)

I totally agree with the comments of Bill Desmond of Canada.  You are 100% accurate and many, many Americans feel as you do, but we are not being heard above the din.  The United States has been exporting it’s love of violence for years.  It is pathetic.  Of course, now we mix it in with pharmaceuticals.  Personally, when I was on Paxil and especially suffering from severe withdrawal, I’m very glad that I did not have gun.  When I went into severe akathesia (google it and enjoy, because it only happens to people on psychotropic drugs like SSRIs) the need to kill myself was incredibly intense and I wanted to take my family with me.  I’m a 100% non-violent person and 100% non-suicidal prior to Paxil use.  The stats with regards to these scripts is now 1 in every 2.5 Americans—a huge amount of drugging.  Every single school shooting and a tremendous number of murder-suicides of families and other individuals occurred while the person was on one of these drugs.  Believe me, I get laughed at a lot by the “I love my drug” crowd and “X drug saved my life.”  The cold facts are that anti-depressants, like statins and many other heavily-advertised pharmaceuticals, help a minimal number of people (about 1 in every 100).  For the thousands for whom these drugs affect badly the results are often tragic.  But this is ignored in our society. 

So when I heard about yet another new have-gun-will-travel provision all I thought of was all those gun-toting SSRI anti-depressant users and hope that I don’t run into one whose drug has “pooped out” (drug withdrawal while still taking the drug), been forced to go into cold-turkey withdrawal because they lost a job and they’re no longer covered, or they’re in the process of changing doses or changing drugs.  Psychotropic drugs and guns don’t mix, but sadly, these drugs are not reserved for serious mental illness, or even serious depression, or serious anxiety anymore.  These drugs are the new snake oil—as we like to say on PaxilProgress.org—and for anything from A to Z that a doc wishes to prescribe them for.

Re: BlueEagle

I realize your comment was directed to KDelphi, however from your comment I sense you might be interested in investigating the the Nuclear Age Peace Foundation.  Their website is here:

http://www.wagingpeace.org/index.htm

Their monthly newsletter, which you can have send to your mailbox (no strings attached, I assure you, from experience)

http://www.wagingpeace.org/menu/resources/sunflower/2004/05_sunflower.pdf

Hans Blix was in charge of the weapons inspection in Iraq, before the US invasion.  An article link, Hans Blix:

“These developments are worrying and somewhat paradoxical. At a time when there are no longer any ideological differences between the main powers, when the economic and political interdependence between states and regions reaches new heights, and when the revolution in information technology brings the world into the living rooms of billions of people, we ought to be able to agree on steps to restrain our capacity for war and destruction.

So, where do we go from here?”

http://www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2007/08/28_blix_is_peace_difficult.htm

Also, from Wiki, regarding Mr. Blix:

“Blix’s statements about the Iraq WMD program came to contradict the claims of the George W. Bush administration, and attracted a great deal of criticism from supporters of the invasion of Iraq. In an interview on BBC TV on 8 February 2004, Dr. Blix accused the US and British governments of dramatising the threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, in order to strengthen the case for the 2003 war against the regime of Saddam Hussein. Ultimately, no stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction were found.

Blix said he suspected his home and office were bugged by the United States, while he led teams searching for Saddam Hussein’s supposed weapons of mass destruction.  Although these suspicions were never directly substantiated, evidence of bugging of UN security council representatives around the time the US was seeking approval from the council came to light after a British government translator leaked a document “allegedly from an American National Security Agency” requesting that British intelligence put wiretaps on delegates to the UN security council.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Blix

I’ve read Dr. Blix’s book, “Disarming Iraq”, it’s very enlightening and NOT ideological.  I recommend it.  Most libraries have it and if you’re unfamiliar with libraries, ASK…. most have inter-library loan programs and you should be able to get “a hold of a copy”.

KDelphi - I hate commenting on extremes like, should everyone be allowed to have a nuke in their backyard.

I guess I would answer it this way… I would like to destroy the entire nuclear arsenal on this planet. People should not have nukes and neither should governments, and that goes for all WMDs.

I will always spend my time fighting for the government to destroy them than for We The People to have them.

BTW, DynaCorp, like Blackwater and Triple Canopy, is a private mercenary army. It’s not the government.

I don’t condone the raping and slave trading they engage in, but I do support private citizens banding together to defend the US Constitution from all enemies foreign and *domestic*.

Okay….. I’ll shoot myself in the foot.  Why not, it gets you furlough, right…?

I’m not attempting to DOWNPLAY what guns can do, however, I do have a couple of questions for those adamantly against guns.

When is the last time you saw a grizzly bear?

How often do you go into America’s wilderness areas?

Have you EVER seen a rattlesnake, in ITS environment?

Have you ever LIVED in a TRULY rural area of America (at least 30 miles to a grocery store or 70 miles to a Wal-Mart)?

and, Why is it that, TRADITION is okay under premises you “deem” worthy (ie. other cultures or more blantantly would you stop Aborigines from having spears?), and yet for Americans, their traditions should be discounted?

BlueEagle—even nukes. you said that we should be armed to the extent that the govt is. you think that you can beat back DynaCorp. good luck.

there is a reason that the uS is the most violent country in the world.

@KDelphi - Actually, I wish bombs, guns, bow & arrows, and knives did not exist. I wish nobody had them - government or the people.

Unfortunately, we have to deal with reality and in order to keep tyranny at bay the power must be in the hands of the people. This is a modern day concept. History shows us that an unarmed subservient citizenry always gets taken advantage of and in some cases leads to the most evil of all - genocide.

I would rather disarm the government than arm the citizen. Destroy all nukes, get rid of the bombs, fighter planes, war ships and tanks. They are only used to kill others. End the military industrial complex. I want peace.

Until that time comes, the citizen needs to be armed to the teeth. Do I trust people with WMDs? NO! But I don’t trust the government either. We can see how many governments have used such power against their own people or other nations, namely mustard gas in Iraq and A-bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Dont feel too safe—weapons are ‘Merka’s only real export—not related to handguns, you say?

Bullsh*t.

So are granade launchers and heat-seeking missles fair game in the northern tundra?

BlueEagle—Yeah, sure—“get your mini-nukes here at BillGoodman’s gun and knife show”!!

Trying to fight the govt with arms in this era is insanity. You’ll just be killed, but, hey….dont try to go to the hospital with your gunshot wound, either.

Bill Desmond—-yes…sigh. Can I come live there? I probably cant afford to move. I speak some French…

Xntrk- I advise you to think again.,..if this person has shot at you, chances are they are better with a gun than you are. I found that out with my ex, when I tried to “learn to shoot” and he walked right up when I pulled it on him and he took it away…you will probably get yourself killed.
See, when they can shoot and you cant, you just tend to piss them off…

I do not own guns now, and, actually, never wanted to. But, almost everyone in my neighborhood, does, especially since Pres. Obama was elected, and all these idiots were convinced that he woudl ‘take their guns”—-the NRA and guns shops really have you guys by the balls and you dont even know it.
Just keep killing each other off—-saves on health care bills.

But no need to ‘stock up” if you cant afford to….both parties of the duopooly are bought and paid for with NRA money.

Well it’s ‘bout time!

Yup, no more worrin’ ‘bout bein’ ambushed by Smokey. And them there chipmunks ... theys fast but they ain’t that fast.

Gee, I used to feel safe when I visited a national park but now it won’t be the idiot that decides I am camping too close to him and he seeks to remedy that, what really frightens me will be those stray shots that some eager beaver for whatever reason will just pull his weapon out and start firing, so it would make me feel a little safer if one discharges a gun that they have to give cause and reason and what they shot at.

And I definitely would not want any national or state park to be considered a firing range just for the idiots that get a hard on or drips when he/she fires a gun.

Wow!!!  I’ve never thought politicians were any smarter than anyone else, but now I’ve got to believe that they’re actually much dumber.

The Dems who voted for this latest idiocy did so because passing a gun ban in 1994 is why the Democrats lost control of Congress that year - according to Larry Pratt, that is. 

Following this to its logical conclusion, the sole determinant of which party holds the majority in Congress depends on which party doesn’t support banning guns - ever?  That’s it?  Simple is indeed mother’s milk for simpletons.

KDelphi,

“Louise, if you dont know how to shoot one, please dont buy one.”
~~~

Not to worry. I have managed to make it through life without a gun, and shall continue to do so. Have no intention of buying one. Cant afford to throw my money away on something I don’t want, don’t need and will probably never use.

I honestly don’t sit around and worry about it. However, I am “a radical, populist-socialist, atheist, anti-capitalist old fart”.

I think if I was packing a gun and a mugger with a gun came after me in a national park or wildlife refuge, I would shoot my foot off trying to get my gun out of the holster and shoot him/her. (Actually my chances of meeting a mugger with a gun, in the parking lot of my grocery store, are far greater)

This really is a dumb idea which could possibly result in a “shoot-out” between citizens misunderstanding another citizen, or citizens packing guns. Kinda like the “shootout” that happened in Seattle a few years back. Seems someone had stolen a patrol car and was cruising around impersonating a cop. A patrol car came upon another patrol car, and the cops in both cars, thinking the other car was the stolen car, engaged in a shootout. By the time they realized neither car was the stolen car, they had exchanged 50 rounds. Fortunately nobody was hit, but that’s a little disconcerting too - fifty rounds and a “target” was never hit? And they spend time on the target range, all the time! Which is probably more than you can say for the folks who want to pack guns just because they can.

The character of visitors to our National Parks will now change from people who love nature to people who fear chipmunks and carry guns to even the odds.

Drew, May 21 at 8:40 pm #

I wanted to thank you for the accurate and well parsed response. Living in California as I do I sort of got used to the ridiculous nature of the CCW laws here. If you live in a rural area you can get such a permit rather easily, but, should you live in an urban area , forget it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

I am still a bit puzzled as to the reason for this bill assuring ones right to carry weapons in a park, a recreational area for families and not a potential OK corral. But, considering the brouhaha surrounding gun ownership in general, and also taking into account the desperation of a GOP gone completely insane with its desire to regain the voter, nothing should surprise any of us.

I have never felt the need to carry my two .45 caliber handguns, or my .380 and they stay in locked boxes and in the gun safe with my rifles unless I am going to the range
( grandchildren frequently visit ).

Bottom line is the Constitution was written to put the power into the hands of the people and to restrain the power of government.

At the end of the day arms are power. @Time the 2nd Amendment was not written for self defense from a criminal or hunting. It was written to protect the 1st Amendment and from a tyrannical government, namely the British. In order to create a balance of power, the people should have access to the same arms as the government.

“When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny.” -Thomas Jefferson

P.T.—Of course, they protect themselves….

Law-abiding citizens are prohibited from bringing guns and explosives for self-defense into the U.S. Capitol.

And the hypocrites at the N.R.A. don’t say anything against it.

Drew—I know plenty about “guns”. More than I ever wanted to…how many people here, just curious, live in a blighted urban area? Because if you live in the suburbs, YOU dont know. Ever had to shoot at anyone? Been shot at? If you werent in the military, maybe you should join…

These articles always draw out the NRA, who must petition (or pay?) people to post for them. But I am not about to go through another debate with a bunch of Libertarians who think that the right to own any weapon is sacred. Been there, done that. In the good ole US of A, no worries! Its out main export! It seems that it is all that we “make” anymore.

If you arent going to do anything, but, “carry them for protection”, why have gun shows, where anyone can guy one? (I used to live with someone who dragged me to those things—GAWD!!—talk about scary people!!) Why do registrations have to be destroyed within 24 hrs? Why do I not have a right to know that the old drunk next door have a semi-automatic? YOur rights end where no nose begins. No, I do not respect the Constitution, because I would not even be considered a citizen…

ardee—we passed concealed carry here and murder by guns went up enormously. Especially young, Af Am males…it makes the entire community feel that they can do nothing, cops are even afraid to check and see if some people have the guns…

I guess that hunting beats factory farming, but, unfortunately, most people I know who own multiple guns did not use them to hunt.

I know a guy who absolutely should not own guns, but he has, gawd knows how many. I actually quit going to their house, because of it. He gets drunk and has accidentally shot his own wife. But, the cops are too afraid to do anythig about it, and, I am too afraid to turn him in. The guy I live with says he hopes that, they dont come over one day and he has to take his gun from him and shoot him.,..he “knows about guns” having had to shoot people and all, and he didnt find it much fun.

Think about how others might feel about dying for your errors. MOst people who own guns do not take them seriously.

Louise, if you dont know how to shoot one, please dont buy one.

My pseudo-conspiracy theory (I hope its false) is that many registered Democs (demockercats?) are really closet Repubs. By voting as spineless Democs they enable passing repub legislation while simultaneously creating a public perception that the majority of Democs are spineless-admittedly this is not particularly difficult as the democratic party (lower case intentional) has drifted so far to the right for many, many years that they would need the Hubble telescope to see where the original “left” is.

As another “old fart” who has owned guns and hunted since 15 years of age (and not a member of the NRA ever!), I am reluctant to characterize all gun owners in a single, handy dandy simple dichotomous way (as we do our political parties which rarely resolves anything since any single person may possess beliefs across the poltical spectrum rather than as some mysterious clone of identical political persuasion either democ or repub).

I am aware that some of our National Parks (especially but not exclusively limited to) those nearer to high population centers have experienced an upward trend of different forms of violence as well including gang activity within their boundaries and adjoining federal lands (USFS, BLM..with respect to marijuana growing). At no time have I felt a need to arm myself for protection when visiting a NP or NWR.

The propensity towards violence (however expressed) strongly suggests a societal failure to provide, starting at an very early age, the teaching of anger management skills including conflict resolution (examples abound of how not to resolve conflicts, sadly and tragically enough) for children (and parents) as well as an understanding of which beliefs are acquired and perpetuated that become entangled with the justification of violence to resolve conflicts.

Drew, May 21 at 6:59 pm #

Are you aware of the difficulty in obtaining a CCW? Your statement that we come across folks carrying all the time is a bit over the top. I understand that some states are more lenient than are others in this regard but they all have some regulatory statutes in place and they dont just hand them out.

godistwaddle,

“As a radical, populist-socialist, atheist, anti-capitalist old fart, I rather think I should be armed, and heavily, against the fascist Democrats and the nazi Republicans.”
~~~

Hmmm, perhaps I’ve found a soul-mate.

(Only I don’t know how to use a gun)

ardee—buy little kidees bright red hunting suits, too…or maybe not!! Who knows what kind of nutcase will carry loaded weapons in there…of course, NRA advocates will say, “Ak-47s are illegal to carry”, but, the truth is, the more lax we are about these laws, the more irreponsible gun ownerhip spreads.

There is a reason why we have the highest murder rate in the world and it aint a lack of jesus!

I dont trust the govt either, but, they and their militia groups will ALWAYS (repeat always) outarm you—at your expense.

Like somebody said, “arm the bears”.

Congress has turned into a bunch of lobbyist whipping boys and girls. The people seem to have no avenue of communication with members of Congress. Certainly any emails, phone calls, or letters I have written are a waste of effort and resources. I get mindless generic responses and perhaps callers take a count of support or non-support.

Otherwise the lobbyists are heard and their drafts of legislation are launched by unprincipled members of Congress.

The many people interest groups are reduced to asking for handouts to handle their media campaigns, the people must pay to multiple people groups to be heard at all, pay stiffer taxes due to lobbyist-compromised congresspeople, pay through the nose for profit-based health care which lobbyists keep expensive, and pretend we are actually represented.

Give me the French model. At least they have listened to their people.

In wildlife refuges??

Even if you believe that this is just, wtf is it doing in a “credit card regulation” bill?? (which is very lame, even at what it purports to do)

They Dems CAVE again…they have NO balls.

Whether it really changes anything is not even the issue. The issue is, that the Dems allowed it to be inserted for purely political reasons, which is what they always do. They have control of both Houses…and the presidency, asnd this crappy bill is the best that they can do?

Much ado about nothing, I fear. The right to bear arms in the parks is still determined by the state in which the park is located. Just as ,apparently, everything coming out of the senate is at the behest of the GOP.

I can see it now,“dear, lets take the kids to the park this weekend.Do we have enough ammo for the AK-47?”

As a radical, populist-socialist, atheist, anti-capitalist old fart, I rather think I should be armed, and heavily, against the fascist Democrats and the nazi Republicans.