foggy—I guess I just dont understand the “real culprits” thing…if someone participated, they are culprits.

If i watch someone being murdered and do nothing to stop it, I will probably not be charged as a murderer, but, as an accessory. But, I should still be charged.

I know that the GOP are “worse on many things”, but, on this one, the Dems are just “expressing (useless)outrage”. Like yesterday, Dems expressed that they “knew it was wrong”, that it “went to far” was ineffective, and, so, what? Theyve not doing anything??

If Pres. Obama and Rep Pelosi decide to do nothing, they are criminal , also.

This is not difficult. Just follow the law.

Lindsey Graham, yesterday, expresssed a profound misunderstanding of how the human mind works..he mustve had Psych, even 101, at LSU or something! The anonymous witness explained to him what DID work, but he chose to ignore it. There are many more effective techniques that do not have to disparage our battered honor, and, Pelosi, Whitehouse, etc are smart enough to know that. Being “afraid’ is no excuse.
First, being more selective about who you “arrest” (disappear??) wouold be a good idea!! NOt offering “rewards” to impoverished neighbors, would be another!

The “anonymous” CIA witnes explained it all very clearly: You establish a “bond” (it doesnt take as long as you would think—these people are afraid and looking for a friend); you express and “understanding” of why they might do what they are accused of; you show “mastery”—make them think that you can make almost anything happen—-invite a few poeple in, whom you can disparage and “order out of the room”; then, there’s the “good cop , bad cop” thing—let another guy act “crazy” (without touching anyone) and, when he leaves, say that you can protect them from him. This is only used when you are fairly certain the person is guilty…cops use it all the time.

This was, after all, a legal matter…if they had not declared the stupid “enemy combatant” status, these people wouldve been tried and found guilty or innocent a long time ago. They created this mess. Let people who created messes pay for a change!

They dont pay for the financial crisis, nor the war crimes, nor the war itself (nor fight it), but, we all pay in the end. I was so angry yesterday, I about chewed a hole in my cheek!

Don’t know why my comment posted twice. Sorry!

Read the sentence. It is pretty specific. The one redneck mentioned is bush. And the ‘redneck’ label is usually applied to uneducated, uncultured and prone-to-violence people ( Deliverance?), mostly men in our society. There are similar labels for this type of group in every language, I bet. I know we have them in India. They are called, among other things, ‘GOONDAs’. In the UK they are YOBs.
So there.

Read the sentence. It is pretty specific. The one redneck mentioned is bush. And the ‘redneck’ label is usually applied to uneducated, uncultured and prone-to-violence people ( Deliverance?), mostly men in our society. There are similar labels for this type of group in every language, I bet. I know we have them in India. They are called, among other things, ‘GOONDAs’. In UK they are YOBs.
So there.

WED.      936 PM/CST DFW/USA

ref: ib42

you just had to lump millions of people into a popular racial slur—rednecks. sorry, my friend, you are no better than or more enlightened than anyone else. what a pity. but hard times are ahead, you will learn.

Actually, there cannot be an absolutely perfect politician in this world. Even Gandhi had his weak spots.
But some are so blatantly, obviously just plain bad that no excuse can be made for them. Nothing good comes out of their governance. 
In this respect, we must choose those who are open, honest and intelligent humans.
Obama fits that category. He is definitely open to altering a previous stance by examining it closely in the light of day. That takes guts. Not an iron fisted tyrant at all, unlike the previous redneck, dangerous fools.

Just consider their names and we should have known better. Pelosi? What does that remind you of, eh? Then there is Bush & Whiney, just a couple of clowns.

These so-called leaders are, eventually, gonna kill everybody, like a drunk behind the wheel. It is just a matter of time. They say one thing and do another. We have brought diaster on ourselves. Must be some Freudian death wish at work. OMG! The writing is on the wall. Keep hope alive?

We may have to prosecute Pelsoi IN ORDER TO < get on with the real ingvestigation.

I don’t know if Pelosi lied, as such,

WTF does that mean? One either lied or one did not.

Dont worry, though. NOthing will happen.

Ref: KDelphi

This time, I completely agree with you. Both must pay, they all have dirty hands. It is the system, stupid. The two-party system. If you are fool enough to vote Dem or Rep, you deserve what you get.

With this outrageous economic meltdown, the evidence is overwhelming and right in your face. Name one SOB of them you would vote for? Well, I would never vote for them and will not buy their masters products. Never again. I will boycott until I die, my relatives die or they ruling elite disappear. To the death, it is ON from here on.

I am not at all religious, but, I do believe that both parties will reap what they sow..the sad part is that we will have to reap it also.

Louise,
“How do you know she didn’t? Of course you DON’T KNOW.”

—-

I did not write that I “know”. I wrote that “So far we have no evidence that she objected in any way”.—If you’re simply trying to be confrontational I’m not interested

—-

Here is what I absolutely do know and can easily prove.

For seven years, when Bill Clinton was president, Nancy Pelosi told the world that Saddam Hussein held banned chemical and biological weapons and was “a clear threat to the United States” yet, after no WMD was found, her entire story changed. Suddenly she was saying; Bush lied, Bush lied, Bush lied.

Nancy Pelosi lied to Americans in a time of war. Defend her if you like, however, it’s easily provable that she is both a politician and known liar.

I gave up on Democrats, Republicans and the entire U.S. Congress in recent months. Things can never get better, ever again, with our present system. Our present system has failed the test of time. We have been sold down the river by the system. All the leaders are still doing business as usual, nobody indicted or taken to trial. Doesn’t that prove they are hardworking honest people, just didn’t have anything to do with The Crime of the Century. Certainly The Greatest Bank Robbery, Ever!

But don’t take my word for it, ask them yourselves. Ask our leaders. You will have to ask them because the mainstream media will never ask them. No, they will broadcast endless hours of Larry King questioning Susan Orman, the financial genius, who has the gift for creating wealth - which is selling books on creating wealth.

Uhm, how about applying the law equally ( and, actually applying it!) and let the chips fall where they may? Does anyone really think that all this shit wont come out sooner or later. If you cannot declare Pelosi guilty of KNOWING that Bush & Co. committed torture and murder, then you cant very well say that you KNOW that Bush & Co did it…it Pelosi did nothing, let her go down , too.

The Dems are in charge—let them act like it, or, they are useless.

PatrickHenry-  Of course the Gops are trying to shift the blame to the Dems- so what else is new.  The point is: if torture is going to be stopped it must be stopped by Progessives, since the Gops tend to be in favor of it.  But progrressives can’t stop it if the Dem leadership continues to support it. They are the good cops to the Gops bad cops.

To stop toruure you have to attack the Dems, since there is no way that the Gops are going to be against it.  Dem leaders like Pelosi and Obama continue to support torure in Afghanistan and Iraq and perhaps elsewhere in US prisons around the world and in client-states.  Louise and apparently Outraged prefer to cheerlead Obama and the Dems to stopping torture.

Louise has an absurdly restricted mindset that if you attack Dems, you have to be a Gop, since the only politics that exists in her mind is Dem-Gop struggles.  Obviously, although the rhetoric and smiles differ, the Dems and Gops agree to continue torture, now by US client-states.

MONDAY   626 PM/CST DFW/USA

REF: MARSHALL

Congratulations, Marshall. You have provided us a near perfect example of faulting reasoning. Unfortunately, there are far too many out there who think alike.

“When Socrates’ finger pointed to the moon, the fool stared at the finger.”

By Louise, May 11 at 11:02 am #

Many good points Louise.  I think the Republicans are trying to shift blame onto Pelosi to take the light off themselves.  She is not my favorite congress critter as you may have guessed.

I’m sure Pelosi has a measure of guilt, however it is miniscule compared to the Bush/Cheney inner circle which secretly orchastrated these un-American events.

“A better question might be, if you were the minority, what would you have done? Complained to the president? How do you know Pelosi didn’t? “

So you’re admitting that she knew but was too afraid to complain to the president?  That would now make her a hypocritical liar as i’ve said, since she now denies ever knowing - but your partisan blinders don’t allow you to care apparently.  Instead, you prefer to invent an elaborate conspiracy theory to absolve her of any guilt and pin it on Bush and co.  Your partisanship is absolute and unwavering, which simply makes you naive.

Outraged,

Thanks for the bit of common sense.
~~~

Unfortunately people who chose only to pick apart and attack those currently in charge, do so in an effort to justify picking apart and attacking ONLY those currently in charge. Which leaves them looking a lot like what they really want to do is defend the mess we’ve inherited from eight years of exclusive repub/Bush leadership. By their very behaviour, they force side-choosing. And of course they are completely innocent in their rigid determination to do so.

Or maybe not. Maybe they really do care about fairness and honesty and holding to account those who broke the law for eight long years. Maybe they aren’t really GOP apologists, maybe they just look that way.

In any case we need never fear they will be deprived of the opportunity to attack dems, independents, former repubs and people who care about - Charges, followed by Evidence, followed by Trial, followed by Innocence or Guilt, and Accountability (or not) accordingly. Because as long as we keep getting hurt by upside down-thinking, followed by upside-down behavior, characterized by the previous eight years of repub leadership, the dems, independents and a lot of former repubs will keep on demanding change. And believe it or not, those eight years leave us all pretty well convinced change for the better will never come from any current repub with name recognition. Kinda strange. They scream that anyone upset about repub leadership is only defending dem leadership. It’s like they never noticed all those bad things that came out of those bad years came out of a repub White House and a repub controlled Congress. Somehow it’s not their fault, because the minority dems didn’t stop them. Well neither did the majority population - until they VOTED them out of office!

Hey that happened! That really happened! 

Oh my. There’s an out of control car racing towards you, you nearly get killed! But it’s not the drivers fault, it’s the kid on the corner who didn’t stick out his toe and stop the car. Quick, charge the kid. He knew that car was coming! He knew someone might get hurt and he didn’t stop the car! So it’s ALL his fault! Right? Like I said upside-down!
So maybe they really are GOP apologists, maybe THAT’S why they look that way.

Re: Folktruther

Your comment: “I am also one of the ‘lttle minds,’ as you call us, that think Pelosi is complicit in implementing the torture strategy of the Gops.”

I don’t think this is what Louise is saying.  Louise is saying let’s FIND OUT, and not convict her without evidence.  Inherently BECAUSE the likes of KNOWN CORRUPT POLITICO’s accuse Pelosi should give us pause to wonder.

Take Hoekstra’s comment:

“The first people that should be called in and held accountable ought to be Congress.”

NO, NO, and NO.  THE FIRST PEOPLE who ought to be held accountable are those who wrote up these memo’s and those signed off, and those who inflicted these acts, they KNEW…. everyone of them that it was against the law.  We can always scoop up those who were complicit as investigations move on.

If Pelosi was complicit, it’ll be found out.  Remember, her accusers are the very ones who SUPPORTED torture, lied about torture, initiated torture, and attempted to downplay torture.  This could hardly be seen as a reliable group.  However, investigations are what will determine if, in fact, Pelosi was involved.

Louise, I am also one of the ‘lttle minds,’ as you call us, that think Pelosi is complicit in implementing the torture strategy of the Gops. You have to make allowances for us, Louise, we can’t all possess your immense political intellect.  As you have said before, anyone criticizing the Dems must be either a Republican or a nincompoop, and since we are not Gops… well, even us Little Minds can make the inference.

You have stated that you are not a fan of ying or political waffling.  I think you are.  We are against torture whether it is done by the Gops or Dems, it currently being done now by Obama in Iraq and the Afpak war.  You are against it when it is done by th Gops but as an Obama and Dem cheerleader, will defend the Dems when they do it.  Even if is is done by lying or politically waffling.

I can only regret, more in sorrow than anger, that if you use yoor enormous intelligence, so much greater than ours, to make political waffles,  we prefer to dine elsewhere.

PatrickHenry,

“How would have Cindy Sheehan handled this?”
~~~
I suspect had she gone public with whatever she gained from a classified briefing, she would have been censured, possibly charged with treason. Bush quickly announced the info regarding Plame had been de-classified to protect his leakers from charges of treason. Do you think he would have done the same for a dem? Of course not!
But being the new kid on the block, she never would have been in a position to receive the briefing. And she definitely would not have been seen as a hero. History proves that. Even when the public at large learned about the torture, for the most part they excused it away, and did nothing. And apparently still prefer to find someone other than Bush and Cheney to blame. Isn’t that really what this whole argument is about?

Maybe it’s a penance thing.
~~~

AFriend,

“As ranking member on the House Intelligence committee Ms. Pelosi had full oversight powers and could have raised any objections in the briefings in question. That’s what congressional oversight is.”
~~~

How do you know she didn’t? Of course you DON’T KNOW. As to WHAT congressional oversight is, why don’t you ask that group who CONTROLLED CONGRESS during the Bush years about congressional oversight?

A better question might be, if you were the minority, what would you have done? Complained to the president? How do you know Pelosi didn’t? Of course you DON’T KNOW! Besides, do you honestly think that would have changed anything? Would you have informed your fellow minority members? Do you think they could have changed anything? Would you have told the voters? Would THEY have done anything?

We do have history, and the last eight years of history say NO to all of the above! When the dems gained control of the House of Representatives everything they tried to do was vetoed by Bush. I guess you didn’t notice. When the voters found out about the torture, they still kept the Senate under repub control!

Now, the repubs are on a fast track out of power and that’s because the voters have finally begun to gain the upper hand. NOT because this rep or that senator stopped or started anything, but because they are getting hit in the pocket-book!
~~~

Shingo,

“It is because of self interested operators like Pelosi that Bush and Cheney were able to get away with what they did.”
~~~

Oh brother.

It is because of self-interest groups like (pick a name - they’re all the same) repubs that Bush and Cheney got away with what they did! Go ahead and try to re-write history. Fortunately there are those who paid attention. Pelosi did indeed say impeachment was off the table, and that made me angry, but lets be honest. Do you really think she would have been successful had she called for impeachment? Do you really think a repub controlled Senate would have allowed that? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Do you really believe Pelosi is responsible for Bush and Co. trashing our values? If you do, then obviously you weren’t paying attention, not really!
~~~

Marshall,

“did the briefing tell her we were already torturing”
~~~

Well actually no. At least according to every report, we don’t know. What we do know is people like you are far more interested in finding a reason to blame the dems for Bush and Cheney’s outrageous and inexcusable behavior. Why is that? What is your real motive for throwing out anything that will distract from the real perpetrators of the damage and death caused by the repub/Bush policy? I mean, you surely must have a reason.

You claim to want to see an investigation, or charges or something. Yet you keep throwing up obsticles which tend to draw the absolute guilt away from those who actually made the policy, asked for the policy, approved the policy, and now BRAG about the policy. Why is that? Has it ever occured to you this reaction (or action) is exactly WHY we are not seeing an investigation, or charges or something? Hmmm ... maybe that’s your reason.

Even the CIA is not entirely behind its “leak” that Pelosi was informed specifically about waterboarding, as distinct from EIT’s. To assume the leaked documents showing Pelosi “guilty” of knowing and at least in spirit approving of waterboarding is to assume too much. That is precisely what is intended in leaks of this nature: fling the mud around in as wide a radius as possible to get as many as possible dirty from it. Torture apologists and the garden variety dissemblers latch conveniently onto this as proof positive the congressional leadership is a guilty as those before them. That is exactly the desired result.

As I said below, all the more reason for a special prosecutor and independent investigation. What is first and foremost is the Bush regime, helped immeasurably by a rubber stamp republican led congress, made torture official US policy, a war crime by any rational reckoning.

How would have Cindy Sheehan handled this?

Louise, “Pelosi had absolutely no power or authority to challenge that which had been “classified”. And moving beyond that, even if she could”

—-

As ranking member on the House Intelligence committee Ms. Pelosi had full oversight powers and could have raised any objections in the briefings in question. That’s what congressional oversight is.

Ms. Pelosi had all the power she needed to push for an end to the techniques in question. She had the prerogative to take her objections directly to the president. So far we have no evidence that she objected in any way.

It seem to me the Congress were participants. Not merely bystanders.

Louise,

>> Like it or not, Pelosi did not create the repub mess. Pelosi did not write the Bush/Cheney torture book. Pelosi is not responsible for the world looking and wondering why we allowed that man Bush, and his policy to destroy so many and so much!

I beg to differ.

Pelosi made the deal with the devil when she agreed to remove impeachment from the table.  That wasn’t her choice to make, but she agreed to these terms in exchange for power.

Like I said earlier, she is part of the problem.  It is because of self interested operators like Pelosi that Bush and Cheney were able to get away with what they did.

By Louise, May 11 at 12:58 am #

“did the briefing tell her we were already torturing”

Yes.  As senior Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee who was briefed on these EITs (i.e. waterboarding) including the techniques used on Abu Zubaydah the month before (i.e. waterboarding), she was obviously aware that it was being used.  That is, unless she was snoozing during the meeting.

You can word dance all you want but if she knew then, but now claims she didn’t -  it would make her both a hypocrite and a liar and only a die-hard partisan would give her a pass.

Marshall,

“... you defend someone who has apparently engaged in the same behavior you so adamantly abhor ...”

~~~

Not hardly sir.

Pelosi did not ask members of the Justice Department to create law to allow war crimes. For that matter Pelosi did not lead the active and antagonistic opposition to signing the International Criminal Court treaty, designed to hold Governments accountable for war crimes. Bush did that .... before 9/11 I might add.

Pelosi had absolutely no power or authority to challenge that which had been “classified”. And moving beyond that, even if she could ... the big question still unanswered is ... did the briefing tell her we were already torturing, already committing war crimes, followed by an outline of which war crimes we were actively committing? I think not. In fact, even the article states, “Although the memo makes no specific reference to waterboarding ...”

Was she told about the development of a program which was henious, and under our Constitutional law illegal? Was she told that Bush and company had already re-written law, making the henious and previous illegal behaviour, in their minds legal? She was not told TORTURE had begun and was on-going. And she certainly was not ASKED if it was OK with her. By the way, she didn’t attack Iraq either. In fact she was one of the few who warned against such foolish action, and she DID NOT vote to authorize the Bush war!

I’m no fan of corruption, weak political waffling, or lying to change the law or start war. And as you all know, I’m no fan of Pelosi. But all the same it appals me when I see people so easily pursuaded to ignore the real evil so they can attack someone less threatening. Ignore the real villain, while their little minds are distracted by a “what, where, when and who” which in the overall sceme of things does not make one damned bit of difference to the fallout, from what that repub administration did in our name.

I guess we are forced to admit, the most incredible ignorance of all is displaid by those who have not got a clue how our Legislative/Judicial/Executive system works. Or is supposed to. Pelosi for example followed the rules. She was silenced by that word “classified”. Bush/Cheney and their pack on the other hand rarely if ever followed the rules. They got away with it because nobody understood the rules. And they get away with it still because still so few understand. I suppose that in itself might be part of the problem. Admitting ignorance is painful indeed.

Inform yourself. Then you might ask yourself ... what is to be gained by beating this dead horse? I promise you he wont get up and run. The carcuses are exposed. The only thing remaining is to watch the repubs rot away. Even though they hope the dummies who never pay attention will somehow, incredibly blame the Dems for their lies and breath new life into their crumbling corpse.

Like it or not, Pelosi did not create the repub mess. Pelosi did not write the Bush/Cheney torture book. Pelosi is not responsible for the world looking and wondering why we allowed that man Bush, and his policy to destroy so many and so much!

Demand something, but for the sake of a semblence of sanity please let your demands make sense with reality!

I agree with Marshall on this one Louise,

I have always been opposed to the Bush administration, but Pelosi has always been part of the problem in the Democrats. She’s a political opportunity with zero credibility or integrity and the Obama administration woudl do well to jettison her ASAP.

The Bushies were the bottom of the heap, but Pelosi represents everything that is wrong in Washington.  She’s purely motivated by self interests and is beholden to the highest bidder.

By Louise, May 10 at 9:53 pm #

Hey Louise - regardless of whether you think Bush and myself are liars, i fail to see how that would exonerate Pelosi.  I understand wanting to protect your own, but you pretty much jettison your own credibility when the you defend someone who has apparently engaged in the same behavior you so adamantly abhor when you think the other party is doing it.  What exactly does that make you?

Marshall,

What do we call this, the cook complaining because his soup stinks? Who’s he gonna blame, himself for putting in vile ingredients, or the dishwasher? Well the dishwasher of course!

Amazing how quickly liars jump to identify liars. Maybe that way they figure we wont notice how much they lie. For what it’s worth, with virtually no exceptions, every unpleasant, disastrious, distructive, harmful and down-right awful thing that’s happened in the past eight years has happened because the governing of Bush was characterized, defined and driven by the very carefully crafted lie. But hey ... if it gets you off blaming Pelosi, go for it. Wouldn’t want you to hurt yourself.

By Purple Girl, May 9 at 11:12 am #

“Repugs are indirectly admitting to War Crimes by trying to implicate Pelosi. If Waterboarding is not torture- who cares if Pelosi knew.”

The issue isn’t whether it’s torture - council advised that it wasn’t - the issue is that Pelosi apparently lied about her knowledge of tactics which SHE HERSELF claims are torture.  How this means the GOP is admitting to war crimes, i guess only you know.  But for Pelosi to claim it’s torture that she’d never have approved of if she knew about it, only later to find out she DID know about and tacitly approved it makes her a disingenuous, unprincipled liar.  You should be upset, not trying to defender her.

That’s the point.

Have you seen the latest…..Gingrich, the notoriously famous flim-flam man of the GOP is opening up his blowhole, whale that he is, although admittedly Rush does top all.  From CNN:

“House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has denied she was ever told explicitly that waterboarding had been used on terrorist suspects, “has a lot of explaining to do,” former Speaker Newt Gingrich said Sunday.”

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2009/05/10/gingrich-pelosi-not-truthful-about-waterboarding-issue/

This would be laughable if the issue were less serious.  Of all people to point fingers…., Gringrich!  Get Real.

They’re back, using the same ol’ tactics (which just shows you how incredibly stupid they are) and with their trademark “pointing of fingers”.  Gingrich, didn’t you get the memo, The American People are disgusted by you and your criminal friends AND WE DON’T BELIEVE A WORD YOU SAY.

Not to be outdone, another blowhole has surfaced on the sea of slime, shimmering dome and all, check it out:

“May 10 (Bloomberg)—Former Vice President Dick Cheney said Republicans are better served by conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh than by former Secretary of State Colin Powell.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aUXi5cHxSSGw&refer=home

It’s true then….. some people can make root canals appear pleasurable.

Purple Girl, May 9 at 11:12 am

“Repugs are indirectly admitting to War Crimes by trying to implicate Pelosi. If Waterboarding is not torture - who cares if Pelosi knew. If it is torture her after the fact involvement does not detract from the fact it was illegal to begin with. So make Pelosi an Accomplice after the fact - she should have to face the reprecussions for that minor part. Still does not detract from the actual crime nor its perpetrators guilt, so what’s their point??”

~~~

Thanks for the excellent question, point, oppinion.

What is the Repubs point? The same point the Repubs ALWAYS have - to distract, change the subject, muddle, lie, confuse and generally keep us from remembering what nasty little people they are.

Actually in this instance Nancy has no guilt, because she had no responsibility. Not in the decision making process, or in the creation of whatever came out of that process. She was a minority leader and as such was required by law to be informed. She was also bound by oath to NOT repeat ANYTHING told to her as CLASSIFIED. So, if in fact she was told we were in fact, torturing at that point in time - what exactly was she supposed to do? Go to the White House? Maybe she did! Maybe she found out again how futile it was looking for answers, let alone direction from a George W. Bush!

Since the CIA has released, and presumably declassified the briefing, I suspect there really is nothing earth shaking in there, except what we already know, thanks to other released documents and information we all had access to back when the International Red Cross blew the whistle on torture. And it was even some time after that before Rumsfeld and the administration pretended to be shocked, just shocked - and spun into denial mode.

So after all is said and done, the whole “Pelosi knew” issue is just more Repub smoke blowing up our ass!

But, as you pointed out, it’s nice to hear the bitchers and moaners from inside that smoke cloud actually acknowledge - yes, they torture.

I signed the petition, when it first came out that Pres. Obama would probably not prosecute or investigate…anyone who feels that a wrong has been committed should not hesitate to sign it. At least you can feel that you tried to right a wrong.

Re: mike112769

I agree, but we’re talking about war crimes, a serious charge.  We don’t want to convict without proof.  That’s why we need investigations. 

Personally, I don’t like Pelosi, but was she involved….?  What did she know and when did she know it?  We know Cheney, Rumsfeldt, Bybee, Yoo, Gonzales, Rice and others up and down the line were undeniably involved or rather ARE guilty of war crimes.

From Wiki:

“According to the Washington Post the request was denied because Attorney General Michael B. Mukasey felt that:

The United Nations Special Rapporteur on torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment -Professor Manfred Nowak- on January 20, 2008 remarked on German television that, following the inauguration of Barack Obama as new President, George W. Bush has lost his head of state immunity and under international law the U.S. is now mandated to start criminal proceedings against all those involved in these violations of the UN Convention Against Torture.  Law professor Dietmar Herz explained Novak’s comments by saying that under U.S. and international law former President Bush is criminally responsible for adopting torture as interrogation tool.”

This “good faith” argument is ridiculously outrageous, they knew….. an EIGHT YEAR OLD knows this is wrong, what kind of BS are they attempting to feed The American People.  If Pelosi was involved we need to know, let the chips fall where they may.

outraged: She lost what little respect I had for her when she back-tracked on impeaching Bush. Like every other politician, she promises one thing and does another. And,yes; I’m sure about that.

All the more reason for a special prosecutor and an independent investigation into the lawyers and officials that made torture official US policy. It really doesn’t matter all the much if the Dems are tainted by this. It is pretty well known they have some complicity in letting things go as far as they did. What is important, much more than a possible smear campaign by the CIA against Pelosi, as well as Harman, is the fact that those in the highest offices of the land conjured up, sought “legal” cover for, and executed policies that are on their face as contrary to at least two international conventions against torture as they can be.

Please add your name to the petition to establish an independent commission of accoutability:

http://www.commissiononaccountability.org/

Re: mike112769

Are you positive about that, or are other events in play?  Have you signed the petition to call for a Truth Commission?  Can you give factual evidence of your assertion?

Screw Pelosi. She has been nothing put a typical politician (ass-kissing liar) since she took office.

Why is this story? When we have all the war criminals that tortured people and those that ordered the torture to be prosecuted for the vile inhumane war crimes they committed. 

Remember when Rumsfeld was so surprised there was any wrong doings at Abu Graib.  Then there were several military investigations (ASS covering missions), then after years of investigations it was determined all the torture was conducted by a few bad apples from the West Virginia national guard.  And America believed it! 

Torture must be punished. This is a no brainer for any civilized nation.  But wait isn’t war profiteering a war crime and isn’t destroying a country and killing millions and ruining many more millions lives some type of crime also? Isn’t it a crime to run secret prisons and contract the torturing out to others?  But then isn’t a crime to use illegal wiretaps to imprison innocent citizens? Then we don’t want to get into the illegal and illegitimate backroom politics that created the financial fiasco we are in, but those are crimes as well. 

Yes, we need to prosecute those that tortured and those that ordered the torture to take place. But when “We The People” supposedly twice elected the most incompetent, corrupt, foul, vile, leader ever to be elected in any democracy we own it to our posterity and to the world to prosecute the bush cabal for all their crimes.  We also need to make sure the republicans can no longer rig the elections. 

Water boarding has always been torture, it was torture in the 1st century it was torture in the 6th century it was torture in the 13 century it was torture in the 20 century.  Only since these crazy American hating, liberty hating, freedom hating, wingnuts stole our country in the last 5 elections has it not been considered torture. 
These gutless, inhumane, spineless, worthless, subhuman’s, who’s only concern is to steal all the money the hard working citizens pay to the government. The bush cabal should all be tried and hung like the worthless filth they are. Any gutless inhumane bureaucrat that tortured another human should be executed beside their leaders. 

However, this is somewhat sticky since we routinely torture and in many cases murder our own citizens.

It really is interesting how the GOP is endorsing this isn’t it?  I’m not saying all democrats are the epitome of innocence, but PurpleGirl makes a very valid point:

”Repugs are indirectly admitting to War Crimes by trying to implicate Pelosi. If Waterboarding is not torture- who cares if Pelosi knew. If it is torture her after the fact involvement does not detract from the fact it was illegal to begin with. So make Pelosi an Accomplice after the fact- she should have to face the reprecussions for that minor part. Still does not detract from the actual crime nor its perpetrators guilt.so what’s their point??”

It would do well to create divisions, suspicions, implications and chaos for the dems by the GOP.  What else have they got…?  They have nothing but their criminal past and criminal backers.  From MediaMatters:

“By focusing on what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) and other congressional Democrats knew about the Bush administration’s use of harsh interrogation techniques, as the GOP has advocated, some in the media have ignored evidence that the Bush administration began using the tactics before briefing congressional Democrats, and that upon learning of the techniques in 2003, the top Democrat on the Intelligence Committee expressed concerns to the CIA, but did not have the authority to force a change. Indeed, according to a May 2005 Bush Justice Department memo, following the Bush administration’s authorization of the harsh interrogation techniques, CIA officials used one of the most controversial techniques, waterboarding, on Al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah in August 2002—before any congressional Democrats had been briefed on any of the tactics.”

http://mediamatters.org/research/200905090006

The proof is in the pudding, let us see who did what and how it went down.  This about face by the GOP regarding torture after months of attempting to downplay it, is very suspicious.

Call for inquiry and a truth commission.  This is a renewed call to action.

Sign Sen. Leahy’s petition:
http://www.bushtruthcommission.com/

SATURDAY   450 PM/CST   DFW

REF: The excellent photograph at the top of the page

Can you imagine this proud trio in fine grey uniforms festooned with familiar fascist medals, ribbons and shiney leather. Stare at it for a few moments and then tell me you just cannot see it.

Maybe not. Maybe reading all the history, including specific economic history, industrial history and government history and comparative religious history.

SATURDAY   PM/CST   DFW

REF: PATRICK HENRY

I think that PH identified the single most important issue regarding Pelosi - the deceit surrounding her participation and loyalty to miliatant Zionist, such as Biden. Without naming all the names, the list is too long, this is all about connecting the dots between our MIC, Israel and Investment bankers. It is about defending and enhancing this special interest jauggernaut.

It is powerful and dangerous as a Great White, it desplaces a lot of water but, stealthily, glides below the surface in its endless search for food.

But since the “frenzied feeding” of the world banksters and the awesome raiding of the public treaury, another costly military adventure in the Mideast, even Joe (Sixpack) the Plumber is demanding believable answers and from-the-ground-up reform and remodeling.

To me, this is an explanation of the reason why so many Dems are against pursuing charges against those that broke intl law. They were involved. I didnt think that they werent. Sheehan would be a true representative of the people of her district.

richform—I am not certain about Cuomo, but, I think that the question to which you are referring (which could have been asked of Cuomo, also, I dont know), was asked of Michael Dukakis during the presidential debates, when he said that he was anti-death penalty (and a good example of why hypotheticals are the last refuge of those who seek to break the law). He was asked, “...if someone raped and killed your wife…”, and, he repled that he would NOT seek the death penalty.

This is moral consistency.

There are few things a powerful person like Pelosi wasn’t aware of. She could even get an unlisted telephone number if she wanted it. But it is in her interest to distance herself from any knowledge of torture. She also would distance her self from any knowledge of Adulterers or adulteresses in congress.

Sheehan would have been a much better representative espousing the ideals of Northern Californians.

The Pelosi reelection smacks of diebold.

She is nothing more than a zionist apologist and needs to go.

Tortured To Death?

US Interrogators Have Killed Dozens

By John Byrne

May 07, 2009 “Raw Story”—- “United States interrogators killed nearly four dozen detainees during or after their interrogations, according a report published by a human rights researcher based on a Human Rights First report and followup investigations.

In all, 98 detainees have died while in US hands. Thirty-four homicides have been identified, with at least eight detainees — and as many as 12 — having been tortured to death, according to a 2006 Human Rights First report that underwrites the researcher’s posting. The causes of 48 more deaths remain uncertain.

The researcher, John Sifton, worked for five years for Human Rights Watch. In a posting Tuesday, he documents myriad cases of detainees who died at the hands of their US interrogators. Some of the instances he cites are graphic.

Most of those taken captive were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. They include at least one Afghani soldier, Jamal Naseer, who was mistakenly arrested in 2004. “Those arrested with Naseer later said that during interrogations U.S. personnel punched and kicked them, hung them upside down, and hit them with sticks or cables,” Sifton writes. “Some said they were doused with cold water and forced to lie in the snow. Nasser collapsed about two weeks after the arrest, complaining of stomach pain, probably an internal hemorrhage.”

Another Afghan killing occurred in 2002. Mohammad Sayari was killed by four U.S. servicemembers after being detained for allegedly “following their movements.” A Pentagon document obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union in 2005 said that the Defense Department found a captain and three sergeants had “murdered” Sayari, but the section dealing with the department’s probe was redacted.

Perhaps the most macabre case occurred in Iraq, which was documented in a Human Rights First report in 2006.

“Nagem Sadoon Hatab… a 52-year-old Iraqi, was killed while in U.S. custody at a holding camp close to Nasiriyah,” the group wrote. “Although a U.S. Army medical examiner found that Hatab had died of strangulation, the evidence that would have been required to secure accountability for his death – Hatab’s body – was rendered unusable in court. Hatab’s internal organs were left exposed on an airport tarmac for hours; in the blistering Baghdad heat, the organs were destroyed; the throat bone that would have supported the Army medical examiner’s findings of strangulation was never found.”

In another graphic instance, a former Iraqi general was beaten by US forces and suffocated to death. The military officer charged in the death was given just 60 days house arrest.

“Abed Hamed Mowhoush [was] a former Iraqi general beaten over days by U.S. Army, CIA and other non-military forces, stuffed into a sleeping bag, wrapped with electrical cord, and suffocated to death,” Human Rights First writes. “In the recently concluded trial of a low-level military officer charged in Mowhoush’s death, the officer received a written reprimand, a fine, and 60 days with his movements limited to his work, home, and church.”

Another Iraqi man was killed in a US detention facility on Mosul in 2003.”

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22566.htm

The major change in the American power system after the Bushite political counter revolution is that now it is permissible for public figures to lie, steal and kill in public.  The pretense after 9/11 is that this is done to protect Freedom and Demcracy. 

Obama states he is closing gitmo and it is still open; that he is withdrawing troops from iraq that are still there; that he is curing the economy by giving banksters huge helpings of public money; by pursuing the Bushite Roadmap for Peace while Isarel continues its ethnic cleansing in plain sight.

Pelosi is telling outright lies to avoid her responsiblity of institutionalizing torture by the US.  As is Obama.  He has abolished torture while it is still going on in Iraq and Afghanistan.  The rhetorical bullshit is relayed by the Dem Progrssive truthers, but it is crucial that the population learn to see through the deceit and the obfuscation by Dem truthers like Purplegirl.

Repugs are indirectly admitting to War Crimes by trying to implicate Pelosi. If Waterboarding is not torture- who cares if Pelosi knew. If it is torture her after the fact involvement does not detract from the fact it was illegal to begin with. So make Pelosi an Accomplice after the fact- she should have to face the reprecussions for that minor part. Still does not detract from the actual crime nor its perpetrators guilt.so what’s their point??
What is most revealing is the fact the Shadow master has been continuously poking his head out keeping this national debate over Waterborading in the headlines- WHY? Sure if he can obscure the definition, it may negate prosecution. but the more he talks about it the more opponents remind the public we’ve prosecute others before- so really he’s doing himself damage. Far more likely is Dick Wants US to prosecute him for the crime of Waterborading- not only will he get a trial under American Laws, but will face only sentencing and the accomdations under US jurisdiction. Protective Custody- Just like the Old Mafia Bosses of decades gone by- basically the lap of luxury. Besides if we spend all our time and energy on this ‘debateable’ crime, all other acts will be ignored. Who was Renditioned, Where did they Go, how were they Treated, did any die or were executed, who was on that Hit list, Were they terrorists or ‘adversarial’ leaders, from which countries…what other Deep dark things was Cheney,rummy & wolfie up to we still have no idea about- domestically and internationally.
I’ll bet Dick would rather spend the last of his Bucket years here at home instead of say…yemen, Syria, Iraq, pakistan…. Dick seems gun hoe to discuss his part in Torture of gitmo & AbuGhraib prisoners- He’s covering up and distracting from far more heinous crimes.What didn’t he bother to get legal briefs on, or hold congressional breifing on??? If Dick learned anything from his mentor Nixon, it was not to leave a record of any sort.waht wasn’t communicated in memos, E-mails or video taped?

For seven years, when Bill Clinton was president, Nancy Pelosi told the world that Saddam Hussein held banned Chemical and Biological weapons and was “a clear threat to the United States” yet, after no WMD was found, her entire story changed. Suddenly she was saying; Bush lied, Bush lied, Bush lied.

I simply don’t recall this retched woman make the claim that President Clinton lied when he warned the Congress and the American people that Hussein was continuing his WMD programs throughout all of the 1990’s.

Now she wants people to believe that she had never been briefed about the use of waterboarding — only that it had been approved in abstract terms by Bush Administration lawyers as a technique for interrogations. Abstract my ass!

This Congresswoman needs to be tried for treason. She aided our enemies by lying about the Commander in Chief, turned people against the Commander in Chief, all for her own political gain. Pelosi did this at the height of war. She’s despicable.

Tenure in Washington brings us losers like Pelosi and that Harry guy. It’s time for our generation to run the Country. These weak pathetic clowns have sold us out to Corporate America and must Go…..

A way, way , way back in time when Pelosi first became Speaker I was naively hoping for some back-boned leadership.  But then she threw out (ooops sorry, took off the table) the impeachment efforts lead by Dennis Kucinich.  That’s when i knew she was nothing more than a typical spineless politician.

Forget about memo’s and letters and briefings. Everybody in Washington knew what was going on and was complicit. Think about the tone of the discussion at that moment in history. Planes had recently been crashed into the WTC and we had in custody some of the planners. We’re concerned about more attacks and so we water-board these guys to find out what else they know.

Be honest with yourself and bring you’re thinking back to those days. What would you have expected of our government in that moment? And then consider the nature of the conversations between our leaders both executive and legislative. I’d wager most of our leaders, from both parties, were thinking at the time we’re not going far enough.

This is not to excuse the past. The good thing about being us is that we can debate these issues in a public forum.

To paraphrase a story about Mario Cuomo and his objection to the death penalty. When asked if he would feel differently about the death penalty if someone had raped and killed his wife. He said yes, he would want the rapist put to death. But he admitted that he would be wrong…

FRIDAY   929 PM/CST   DFW

Pelosi?

Does anybody else smell something fishy?

Supposed human rights supporter Nancy Pelosi is about as duplicitous as they come.  Note the enthusiasm with which she supports Israeli killing of the occupied Palestinians and the Lebanese.

FRIDAY   607 PM/CST   DFW

Pelosi doesn’t remember anything about torture meetings? If not, she must not be competent serve as speaker of the house, a profoundly powerful post in our government. Between Pelosi and Byrd, it should be plain why so many terrible decisions have been made by the U.S. Congress. What else don’t they remember.

I cannot remember anytime our government has been in worse shape. Yet, the mainstream media continues describing the emporer’s new clothes. Wheeee, that is change you can believe in. I think Airforce One is passing overhead and the president of Afghanistan is denouncing U.S. bombings on the Paki border. What else can happen today?

All these things need to be investigated.  REPUBLICANS are calling for investigations, that’s interesting….. although this story at The Hill quotes Rep. Pete Hoekstra (Mich.), the top Republican on House Intelligence,

“I wouldn’t have a problem with the intelligence committee or the Judiciary Committee having hearings on this,” he said. “If [House Judiciary Chairman] John Conyers [D-Mich.] wants to have hearings, they shouldn’t call in the Department of Justice attorneys as their first witnesses. The first people that should be called in and held accountable ought to be Congress.”

Well, I half agree with you Mr. Hoekstra but really ALL need to be called as witnesses.  So I’m left wondering, does it matter who goes first..?  It seems it MUST matter.

This article also has a link to the leaked documents.

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-under-renewed-fire-over-interrogations-2009-05-08.html

The UK Telegraph had this take:

“Peter Hoekstra, a Republican congressman who has sat on the intelligence committee since September 11 2001, told The Daily Telegraph that “she must have known, she just doesn’t want to be held accountable”.

“What the president didn’t comprehend is how you can’t just selectively release information that’s damaging to the Bush administration, because then people say what about all this other stuff that’s out there?” he added.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5297269/Nancy-Pelosi-was-aware-harsh-interrogation-methods-had-been-used.html

If this is accurate, it appears that Hoeskstra is looking for a stalemate and not an inquiry.  Let’s investigate, but let’s do it carefully and not by the whims of one who is “against an inquiry”.

FRIDAY 537 PM/CST DFW

What a pretty picture at the top of the page. So, what’s in a name, they are all the same.

Studying this fine photo, the movie “Charade” comes to mind. Few people will ever understand the true motives, much less who is really pulling the strings in this awesome puppet show.

Financial bubbles, wars and managing the world cannot be left to chance. There are many smoking guns but no outright confession. Who dunnit?

As I have written elsewhere, when we look at why Democrats are so disappointingly right-wing on “national security” and “foreign policy” issues, we must understand at the outset that, within the Democratic party, pressure to pursue these illiberal policies comes from a very narrow but very powerful group; it’s not at all a majority of party members or even a majority of the base.

This is very much in contrast to the GOP, where aggressive and belligerent policies are loudly supported by the base as well as the membership in general.

But in the Democratic party the base is strongly antiwar, and the membership in general favors greater respect for human rights, humane treatment of prisoners as a matter of principle, etc.

There is, however, one narrow but powerful constituency within the Democratic party that will not tolerate any “softness” on foreign policy or national security issues, especially in any matters concerning “getting tough” on Arab and Muslims. That constituency is the Israel lobby.

Nancy Pelosi, even in liberal San Francisco, was determined not to expose herself to the charge of being “soft on Arabs”. If she had, she’d probably never have been made Speaker of the House. The “progressive” pro-Israel warmongers over at the New Republic and the Brookings Institute would have branded her as “not credible” on foreign policy. And naturally, as a woman, she may have especially feared being called too “soft”.