Which country in the ME has undeclared stockpiles of nuclear weapons?

Which country in the ME has undeclared stockpiles of chemical & biological weapons?

Which country in the ME has no outside inspections of its “WMD” stockpiles & warehouses?

The answers, details and much more are in this BBC documentary video that we can’t see on CNN, FOX & the rest of them that are controlled by AIPAC.

Find out what happened to that Israeli military transport plane that crashed in the Netherlands & what was on board and why the news media remained silent on the incident/topic.

Cick on link below to watch video: 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel’s Secret Weapon (Secret Nuclear Weapons)

“Mordechai Vanunu, Israel’s nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel’s nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. ...all » Mordechai Vanunu, Israel’s nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel’s nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. Olenka Frenkiel reveals the extent of Israel’s nuclear gagging. The Sunday Times Revelations hit the press in October 1986. Vanunu has spent 17 years in jail, a11 of which were in a minute solitary confinement cell - and he has just had his appeal for parole denied. He will stay in jail until 2004, when his term is expected to end. Sunday Times journalist Peter Hounam heard rumours in 1986 that an Israeli whistleblower was offering proof of what the world had long suspected. His revelations confirmed that Israel was building advanced nuclear weapons. After the Sunday Times published this scoop, Vanunu was kidnapped in London by Mossad agents and illegally smuggled back to Israel. He was tried in secret and convicted of treason and spying.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-234685330662058240&q=israel+secret+weapon&total=107&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

Night Gaunt—My party (Meretz) does not want to expand to the huge borders of old Israel. We want the pre-‘67 borders, share East Jerusalem, no right of return to Israel proper because the deluge would leave Jews a minority in a Moslem country. That’s fine in Turkey, and even in Iran, but nowhere else.
What I read in the Israeli newspapers and other sites is that Israel is gearing up and testing its missile DEFENSE systems. There are militarists running the country now who would much rather gear up to attack Iran but there is also a lot of influential opposition to anything like that. Obama and Mitchell must make it clear to Netanyahu and Lieberman that they will not back up any Israeli attack on Iran and will not pull Israel’s chestnuts out of the fire should Israel do it on their own. My fear is that they will not express this with the firmness and clarity required, so there is no misunderstanding on the PM’s part, no “Oh, he doesn’t really MEAN it.” I wish Freeman was there; he would be crystal clear about Iran and the settlements and the second state. Anyway, have to go back and participate in Israel-based opposition.

“In pretrial maneuvering, the prosecution suffered several setbacks in rulings from the trial judge, T. S. Ellis III, that were upheld by a federal appeals court in Richmond, Va. Judge Ellis rejected several government efforts to conceal classified information if the case went to trial. Moreover, he ruled that the government could prevail only if it met a high standard; he said prosecutors would have to demonstrate that Mr. Rosen and Mr. Weissman knew that their distribution of the information would harm United States national security.”

I do wonder why this case was brought in the first place. Maybe Rumsfeld had been pissed off that the Israeli secret service was caught. Or someone on his staff who did not like a foreign country spying and manipulating our own gov’t people. I would like to learn more about this judge T.S. Ellis III.

By Mech’elsamberg, May 4 at 3:13 pm #

Oh, please.  Spare me the BS.  Zionist this, Zionist that.  In the old days it was Jew this and Jew that.

Mech’elsamberg not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. You should know that. So the race bating of any criticism of the Jewish state no matter what crimes it does as racism falls flat. Why must the Palestinians be the only ones to recognize Israel and stop fighting them when Israel doesn’t have to do the same for Palestine?

”...to use quotes from Jews who are opposed to Israel’s existence ranging from Noam Chomsky…”—Sheparad

When has Dr. Chomsky said that Israel shouldn’t exist? He certainly knows the difference between official rules to exist and taking it upon them selves to exist. The problem is that Israel won’t allow the Palestinians to exist as a country. They are against it and so is the USA for 40 years. Which he and others have reported on for those many years.

“I think Obama will do whatever is best for the U.S. I hope Obama will persuade the Euros and Arabs that however they choose to contain Iran, it won’t also sell Israel down the river to the Muslim fanatics.”—Sheparad

Too bad Obama may sell Israel down the river to the Zionist fanatics in charge of the country now. Kissing Israeli ass for Messianic Christianity conversion of the Jews is ugly but not surprising. Each works to affect the other their way. Sworn militarists who want to expand Israel’s boarders to the Levant and the Euphrates river! A disturbing trend is that the youth are becoming ardent holy warriors too for the Zionist cause. [Why Israel’s boarders aren’t final.] That and get all the Jews back to Israel and push out or kill any who are not of them. [Sound familiar?]

Right now the only threat from Iran is from the USA and Israel who constantly work psy ops to promote the idea that theocratic Iran is a danger even as they follow the law. Unlike Israel who is a criminal concerning nuclear arms. [Probably gotten from India and USA i.e. tech, materials and expertise.]

Sepharad,

While we are both reading the same article, your interpretation has nothing to do with the words on the page.

About the charter, he absolutely refers to it specifically:

“But he urged outsiders to ignore the Hamas charter, which calls for the obliteration of Israel through jihad and cites as fact the infamous anti-Semitic forgery”

Then the article says:

“Mr. Meshal did not offer to revoke the charter, but said it was 20 years old, adding, “We are shaped by our experiences.”

Is these not specific references?  Why are you being so belligerent?

Mehsal, like Netenyahu, is a political animal and as such, has an interest in maintaining ambiguity until he achieves his aims.

>> I guess we also just have to disagree on Jewish claims to the land, much of which from the mid-19th century on Jews bought from the Ottomans and from Palestinian Arab landholders.

This is demonstrably false on multiple fronts. 

At the time of Israel’s creation, Jews only owned 7% of the land in the region of Israel as per the 1948 map.  The state of Israel owned about 40% and the rest belonged to Arab landlords. This crated a problem for the Zionists who wanted to create a Jewish state because they knew that most of the landlords would not sell their land to Israel.  Israel used the land of imminent domain to seize that land along with the ethnic cleansing of 1948.  Israel drove out the Arabs, then declared that absentee landlords had forfeited their right to the land.

Furthermore, Ottoman archives show that many land deeds were forged.  Until recently, the Turkish government had kept these archives under wraps for political reasons, but after Israel’s assault on the Gaza, lawyers representing Palestinian families were given access to Ottoman land registry archives in Ankara for the first time, providing what they say is proof that title deeds produced by the settlers are forgeries.

Also, whatever legitimate purchases were made by the late 19th century , the fact remains that Arabs outnumbered Jews by more than 10:1.

I am not disputing that the right of return to pre-67 borders would swamp the Jews and other non-Arabs in Israel, and while this is a problem of Israel’s own doing, I doubt that the Arabs would want to return in any case.  There are other options available, such as compensation that could be paid to these families.  Former Israeli foreign minister, Shlomo Ben Ami, has suggested such an option.

Israel continues too find new reasons to destroy Arab homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including homed that sate back to before Israel’s creation so the cases of Arabs of East Jerusalem not selling his house or land seems rather moot.

I agree that a 2nd state is the best option, but under present circumstances, a state would be impossible to create.  They settlers have doomed this outcome and I honestly doubt that any Israeli government would have the will or stomach to deal with these extremists and fanatics when it came to removing them.
While I support Israel’s right to exist, there is no evidence for the “need” (growing or otherwise) for a small Jewish-majority state. Most of the world’s Jews do not live in Israel and chose not to, yourself included, which suggests to me that the myth of a Jewish safe haven is simply that, a myth.
Al Quaeda didn’t suddenly remember the usefulness of Israeli-Palestinian dispute.  The first thing Bin Laden cited when he became a militant was the Shaba and Shatilla massacre.

In any case, your attempt to portray the situation as one of equal suffering and oppression on both sides is rather weak.  The Israeli Jews are not oppressed by any means and their suffering is virtually non existent when compared to the reality faces by the Palestinians. I do agree there is a great deal of fear in Israel, some of it justified, much of it imaginary but governments in the US and Israel have garnered a great deal of mileage by maintaining fear in the population.

Shingo, I guess it’s the blind men and the elephant all over again. You and I both read the same article with the Hamas leader in the paper and believe he said different things about the charter because he didn’t actually refer to it specifically. We see what we want to see, extract what we want to extract(or, in my case, don’t WANT to extract—would much prefer he would have said that of course they recognize Israel’s right to exist, just give us Judea and Samaria and no more fighting).

In contrast, in another NYT article, that long interview with a Taliban logistician, you KNOW where you stand with the Taliban. They say what they mean, do what they do, and make distinctions between their interests (Americans out of Afghanistan) and Al Quaeda’s which, according to this Taliban logistician, has global aspirations. Not that I agree with the Taliban’s program or imposition of lifestyle on the unwilling, but they are very clear as to their intent. I don’t feel like they’re gaming us any way but militarily.

I guess we also just have to disagree on Jewish claims to the land, much of which from the mid-19th century on Jews bought from the Ottomans and from Palestinian Arab landholders. The Romans didn’t kill or drive out all of us. Shepherds and scholars were scarcer on the grounds and kept their heads down in the hills and in Jerusalem. When fanatic Moslems destroyed much of Cordoba and drove out Islamic as well as Jewish scholars, including the Maimonides family, some of them joined their relatives and others in Jerusalem, still a center of learning. (Maimonides himself went to Morocco as did I’bn Rushd.) When my great-great-grandfather got there in 1828, there were Jewish farmers and shepherds about. Also Arabs. The original partition would have made for a very very vulnerable country, but the Jews were willing to accept that. When the Palestinian Arabs didn’t, hostilities began and have not really ceased since, with Jordan taking Judea and Samaria away from the Palestinians and Egypt, Gaza.

Were there a right of return to pre-67 Israel, demographics would swamp the Jews and other non-Arabs in Israel. There must be a Jewish-majority state, however small, and a secure one. I can’t see a way from this position to yours, as much as I’d like to. Palestinians hung a man for selling his West Bank land to a Jew, Arabs of East Jerusalem won’t sell any house or land to Christians or Jews, and in Israel there are new policies making it hard for Israeli Arabs to buy land they don’t now own. These developments are relatively new but make me more firmly committed to the second state. Too much has happened to make a single state feasible from either point of view, and if there is reconciliation it’s going to take a lot of time, there can be no reconciliation without two separate and secure states.

It’s hard for me to understand how you could not see the growing need for a small Jewish-majority state, based on the many comments on this thread and elsewhere. (Just as Al Quaeda suddenly remembered the usefulness of Israeli-Palestinian disupte, anti-Semites of the first order have also hitched their vile doctrine to the same dispute. I would thank God if I believed in one that the EU has finally started to study the spread and nature of this; the U.S. will doubtless take longer.)  I understand the Palestinians’ feelings of being oppressed, and so do the Israelis, most of whom are also oppressed by the constant spectre of violence and the need to be on guard at all times. There’s a lot of coulda-woulda-shoulda on both sides. Unfortunately the situation now is that oppressed people, frightened people, are on both sides, neither of whom are very likely to be well-disposed to the other, is exactly where it stands in Israel/Palestine today. There has to be a divorce, a separation, and it will take a very long time to reconcile to the point of becoming friendly neighbors.

Sepharad,

Part 1 of 2

Sharon’s motive for giving up Gaza was economic and pragmatic.  It certaily wasn’t land for peace because in the end, those 8000 settlers were mpoved from their illegal settlemnts in Gaza to other illegal settlemeents in the West Bank. 

It made no sense to invest so much money in and security services in defending a population of 8000 people in an otherwise low value chunk of land.

Remember, that Saron’s adviser, Dov Weisglass, told the world that Sharon’s polocies were to suspend the peace process in formaldehyde and pulling out of Gaza was key to that.

Hamas controls Gaza now yes, having been democrastically elected to do so. They were of course, orginally invited into Gaza by Israel, but in any case, the NYT’s just published an interview yesteray where the leader of Hamas calls for a 2 state solutiuon and commands Hamas followers to disregard the 23 year old charter. 

So yes, land for peace will could work, if Israel is indeed willing to pay that price. It is interesting that we also also seeing an apparently about face from Israel, with Yalon saying Isrsael would support a 2 state solution.  Perhaps they realized that it was bad PR to be seen to oppose to a 2 state solution while Hamas suported it.

Of course, even the land for peace meme is misleading, since it suggests Israel is givign something away that it owns, wand the West Bank has never belonged to Israel.

The Egyptian and Jordanian governments are just as afraid of their populations in general as they are the Islamic Brotherhood, a body which is actually largely peaceful, though fundamentalist.  Tyrants are always supisuious and paranoid of their poulations.

The Lebanese government is in the same camp, because the Lebaese constitution is an anachronism whereby the government representatives are selected based on religious denomination, not popular vote.  If the Lebanese elections were democratic, Hezbollah would likely have win.

Your demissal of what Hamas’ leader had to say in that interview is pretty blinkered and biased.  After all, Hamas have demonstarted that they are modernising and changing direction.  Hamas did stick to the ceasefire with Israel last year until Israel broke it in November, and that was even after Israel reneged on a key provision - that they would lift the blockade.

Sepharad,

Part 2 of 2

The 10-year calm is a powerful concession, considering that if calm does indeed last 10 years and the Palestianins are left alone to control their own destiny (ie. enjoy self determination) there would be no desire or support for the resumption of hoistilities.

In that interview, Meeshal explicitly calls for the charter to be ignored.  As he said to Sy Hersh in a previous interviews, he recgonizes there is a state called Israel, but as the leader of the reistance movement, he cannot “recognize” Israel per se, until the Palestinains have their own state.  He also points out that “recognizing Israel” got Arafat nowhere, and correctly poits out that the demand is a just a stonewalling tactic anyway.

Needless to say, no Israeli governmewnt leader has ever offerd to recognize a Palestinian state.

The levels of anti-Israel anti-Semitism you observe is directly related to Israel’s policies against the Palestinians.  Israel’s popularity around the world would escalate repidly if they were to agree to a 2 state settlement and grant the Palestinians self determination.  There is no point pretending that the anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist sentiments have nothing to do with events on the ground.

>> Culturally, traditional religious Arabs accept a more elastic version of the virtue of truth than Westerners and other non-Arab Moslems.

There is no basis in this statement.  After all, over the last few years, beginnign with Benny Morris’ work, the revisionism and myths of Israel are gradually comming to light.  It has become par for the course that anything the Israeli government says is the inverse of reality.

What does the motto of the Mossad Say?  By way of deception….?

No one is expecting you to trust Hamas leaders, any more than the rest of us trust Israel’s leaders.  In the end, the truth is coes down to their actions and their policies.

Shingo, You’re right that Jews in Israel will be overwhelmed demographically if they don’t give the Palestinians Judea and Samaria (West Bank)—that was Sharon’s motive for giving up Gaza. And now the Muslim Brotherhood offshoot Hamas controls it, so obviously “land for peace” doesn’t work. This is giving Israelis pause re another pullout (the nibbling away I refer to), mainly because they are just as afraid of Islamist extremists as the Egyptian and Jordanian governments are (and as the Lebanese government used to be before Hezbollah got as close to taking that country over as they now are). In fact it also is beginning to give ME pause, though previously I’ve thought the West Bank should be the refugee Palestinians as well as a larger piece of Palestine on the East Bank, as Jordan was a part of Palestine and 70-80% of Jordanians are Palestinian.

The other factor that is making me wonder whether maybe the hard-liners are not right is the most recent interview with the Hamas leader in Damascus, which sleazes around with make-nice rhetoric offering Hamas as “part of the solution”, hoping that the more gullible among the West will buy it. They are apparently OK with a 10-year “calm” (no rockets) if Israel gives back the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the right of return to all refugees of ‘48 (which, as they tend to have huge families, would overwhelm the Jewish population and other non-Arabs in Israel). And even if all that were done, he says, they would not change their charter belief that denies Israel the right to exist among other noxious material.

Re poll info —I haven’t seen any polls re shifting Israeli attitudes though some must exist somewhere. I’m basing my comments on what I read in the various Israeli papers, and conversation—with family and friends in and out of Israel as well as my longtime doctors who also have families in Israel and Europe. I’m not joining AIPAC or switching parties yet, as I think Israel has to crack down hard on unacceptable behavior in IDF (a non-IDF run investigation of cluster bombs used in Gaza)and among settlers. But as I become much more conscious of the level of anti-Israel anti-Zionism anti-Semitism in the air everywhere, not just on this site, it seems to me that Israel’s survival possibilities are dimming just when it may be most needed, and it’s time to get off the fence. Culturally, traditional religious Arabs accept a more elastic version of the virtue of truth than Westerners and other non-Arab Moslems. I know that comment is going to draw outraged yowls, but I didn’t invent the concept. Ib’n Khaldun (Muquaddimah), T.E. Lawrence said as much in isolated comments here and there, and Raphael Pati (“The Arab Mind”—he also wrote “The Jewish Mind”) discuss this. I could say the same about horse traders, which doesn’t mean that all horse traders lie any more than it doesn’t mean that all Arabs lie (those in both categories whom I know personally do not lie to me as far as I know). I guess what I really mean and will say unequivocally is that I trust Hamas leaders about as far as I could throw them, which is not very far at all.

Ed Harges wrote:
“Israel is a sort of protection racket targeting Jews all over the world. If you are not sure you want Israel’s “protection”, Israel will arrange for you to need it.”
_____________________________________________________

Ed, You hit the nail right on the head. I agree with
you 100%.

A good video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llc977kNO7c

Soldiers refuse to serve in Gaza - Israel Social TV

re: Folktruther’s mention of the boycott: there are signs that the world boycott campaign against Israel is starting to bite:

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/03/boycott-of-israel-is-starting-to-bite.html

Zionism is rapidly getting increasingly barbaric and murderous historically. There is a real and increasing danger that the Israeli power structure, with the support of American zionists, will engage in increasing mass murder. American zionists like Mech are deflecting sympathy for the Palestians with his contempt for ‘boo hoo, Israel’ ideology, the same sort of thing Inherit indulged in with his ‘poor,poor Palestinains.’  This dehumanization of the Palestinians is supported by Sepharad who tries to pretend that Hezbollah and Hamas are threatening Israel with nuclear weapons.  This type of absurdity increases with oppression.

Israeli youth are beginning to increase their resistence in going into the Israeli military as the world’s revulsion of the Isreali death strategy becomes incraasingly manifest. An recent article in Haaretz deplores this anti-draft trend.  this is inevitable as the young increasingly realize that Zionist strategy is not only immoral, it is self-defeating.  It is bound to lose historically.

It is supported by the US and Obama, and the most salient thing about it is that this geostrategy can’t win historically.  there is no way, over historical time, that Israel can continue to survive by sitting on beyonets, in an increasinglly isolated fortress.

It is a death strategy, as military strategist van Clealand and others almost frankly admit. His last book THE CULTURE OF WAR could better be titled THE JOY OF DEATH.  He argues that killing is fun and the dying in the act of killing is noble.  Israel is a country with nuclear weapons and van Clealand champions the Samson Option as its final death act.

This death ideology has been immported into the US and has largely hijacked US foreign and domestic policy. The Zionist defense of ethnic cleansing is becoming increasingly corrupt as the horrors of its policy become more widely known.  But it is poisoning American mainstream truth with the gibbering of Christian Zionists like Hagee, and Jewish Zionists like Dershowitz and Horriwitz.  Horrowitz   is carrying on a McCarthyite campaign against the unversities of any professor that criticizes Israel, the criticism itself being considered anti-semitic, even when the professor is Jewish.

As the isolating of Israel by boycott’s etc increase, its death ideology is becoming more intense.  Jewish Zionists are starting to gibber like the right wing Christian Zionists.  The only solution I see is for the American people to get Zionists out of the US power structure, or to restrict their power so a to neutralize them.  But this will require mobilizing the American people against Jewish and Christian Zionism, to change American policy.

I think that you’re right, Ed. My Jewish relatives certainly dont think that religious Zionism is doing them any favors.

This only ensures that the American backlash against Israel’s supporters will be all the more violent when it comes.

Maybe Israel hopes to induce pogroms in the United States, thus legitimizing Israel as a necessary refuge?

Israel is a sort of protection racket targeting Jews all over the world. If you are not sure you want Israel’s “protection”, Israel will arrange for you to need it.

Robert—re Shulamit Aloni’s story—Good post. She’s right.

and??

(is she fired yet?)

“Keeping that fiddler on the roof and playing his tune is a remarkable balancing act.”

Knock him off the roof and tell Biden what his job is and to whom he owes his loyalties, as Vice President of the United States of America.

Tell him Whose tune to dance to, and Who is playing his fiddle - the American People,

and not AIPAC!!

Sadly, Israel is no Longer Democratic

By Shulamit Aloni

“May 03, 2009 “Haaretz”—Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin and philosopher Asa Kasher, two respected men around here, published an article entitled: “A just war of a democratic state,” (Haaretz, April 24, Hebrew).

A remark about the first part: There are wars that are necessary for self-defense or to fight injustice and evil. But the expression “just” is problematic when speaking of war itself - which involves killing and destruction and leaves women, children and old people homeless, and sometimes even kills them.

Our sages have said: “Don’t be overly righteous.” And there is absolutely no question that dropping cluster bombs in an area populated by civilians, as we did in the Second Lebanon War, does not testify to great righteousness. The same thing can be said of using phosphorus bombs against a civilian population.
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Apparently, according to the Yadlin and Kasher definition of justice, in order to eliminate terrorists it is just to destroy, kill, expel and starve a civilian population that has no connection to the acts of terror and no responsibility for them. Perhaps had they adopted a more decent and less arrogant approach they would have tried to explain the reasons for the fury and intensity that brought about the shocking killing and destruction, and even apologized for the fact that these exceeded any reasonable necessity.

But after all, we are always right; moreover, these things were done by “the most moral army in the world,” sent by the “democratic” Jewish state - and here is the meeting point of the two concepts in the title of Yadlin and Kasher’s article.

As for the army’s morality, it would have been better had they remained silent and thereby been considered wise. This is because the statistics on the destruction and harm to civilians in the Gaza Strip are familiar to everyone, and not divorced from the oh-so-moral behavior of our army in the occupied territories. In the context of this behavior, for example, the army operates with great efficiency against farmers who demonstrate against the theft of their lands, even when the demonstrations are not violent.

The long-term evidence of abuse by soldiers against civilians at the checkpoints - including repeated instances of expectant mothers who are forced to give birth in the middle of the road, surrounded by armed soldiers who laugh wickedly - is no secret either. Day after day, year after year, the most moral army in the world helps to steal lands, uproot trees, steal water, close roads - in the service of the righteous “Jewish and democratic” state and with its support. It’s heartbreaking, but the State of Israel is no longer democratic. We are living in an ethnocracy under “Jewish and democratic” rule.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest of article. Folktruther, a better title would be “Jewish (who suport zionism) & democratic” rule:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22538.htm

Sepharad

I do this mostly on yahoo groups.  Its easier to navigate and takes less time. My email address is my name without the ” ’ ” at gmail dot com.

The dropping of the AIPAC spy case is really not that surprising.

After all, Vice-president Joe “I am a Zionist” Biden is headlining the AIPAC’s annual conference.

...then there’s Obama’s speech to AIPAC (speaks volumes):

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1032259.html

indeed mech’elsamberg,

No one really gives a crap whether you are a Zionist, A Christian or a Martian, so long as you cut the BS, the lies and the conflation and stop pretending that Arabs aren’t really dying.

As you can see,  Sepharad and I but heads ideologically but we get on just fine.  Then again, at least Sepharad admits that Israel needs to return the West Bank and recognize a Palestinians state.  I get the feeling that you are on the same page as Bibbi and Lieberman when it comes to that.

mech’elsamberg—There are a couple other posters who aren’t kneejerk “The Israelis Did It/Thought It/Said It/Wanted It/Killed It” but they do get tired of repeating the same thing to the same old TDers. Once in awhile it’s worth it. Usually like banging your head against a wall. But don’t let the sarcasm and ignorance and pure poison hate shut you up. (Myself, I have learned to pay attention to some of what the sarcastic posters have to say because they sometimes have a point or good references. It’s the ignorant and/or poisonous ones who are a black hole as far as any exchange of information goes.)

I’ll try to contact you on gmail—am not computer-literate unfortunately but sure I can find out how to do it if obvious paths fail.

Sepharad,

The only threat to Israel’s survival, and by that, I mean Israel’s continuation as a Jewish only state,  is the fact that Jews will become a religious minority unless they give back the West Bank.

By Sunni countries and their cooperation with Israel, U.S. and Euros, let’s also be clear that we are talking about the leaders of these countries specifically and that the cooperation would be out of self preservation and self interest, not any so called Sunni-Shi’ia schism.  These leaders continue to rule and remain in power because of the support they receive from the West, after all.

it was you who made reference to maps and history and the one I linked to pretty much tells the story. Irrespective of whoever you believe “governed” Palestine, the land was predominantly occupied and owned by Arabs.  Even when Israel was created, Jews only owned 7% of the land.  50% belonged to Arab landlords.

>> Many Israelis are concluding that most Moslems have no intention of permitting a Jewish-majority state to exist

I would appreciate a poll that documents this conclusion, especially given that the League of 22 Arab Nations have not only offered to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders, but to normalize relations with Israel.

Israel have rejected this offer and Lieberman has described the offer as dangerous.

What examples are there of the Arabs nibbling away at it piece by piece, especially given that Isrel settelments are expanding?  What examples are there that Israel is becoming sufficiently vulnerable to overrun? Like I pointed out, the only scenario of Israel being threatened is Israeli expansionism, not Arab nibbling.

As for the Iranian Mullahs, Ahmadinejad or Khatami, one can pretty much judge what they are thinking by their actions. Iran is not occupying any other state.  It has not invaded anyone.  Contrary to the familiar canard, they are not calling for the destruction of Israel or anyone else.

>> I even have nearly everything Chomsky wrote. Don’t you agree he would be OK with Israel surviving as long as everyone in the region was OK with it and there was no fighting involved?

Sure, but as I recall, it was you that suggested Chomsky was opposed to Israel’s existence, not me.

Thats hysterical.  Comparing an unprovoked suicide/homicide attack with self defense.

Folk & Foggy—Yes, the gypsies should find a different way of living, but theft isn’t a capital offense even in Saudi Arabia, where they just chop off a hand. I think. Could be wrong.

Re the Madoffs of the world, I think they’ve destroyed peoples’ lives and should get life in prison, a regular prison not a countryclub one, and deserve far worse than those thieving gypsies.

Shingo, Agree with Ha’aretz piece, noting the “perhaps” nature of it, and I hope things work out this way. Again, I don’t think Israel or other larger entities should attack Iran. And I wish the guiding hand was Tzipi’s and not Bibi’s. But it’s not, and “perhaps” is “perhaps”—so Israel’s survival remains iffy. Has been for a long time, but moreso now given the Israeli and Iranian leadership. I think that Israel’s performance with the Swiss was idiotic, as that would have been a reasonable approach from all partys’ standpoints.

Sunni countries would cooperate with Israel, U.S. and Euros (even the devil himself) to contain Iran because of the Sunni-Shi’ia schism, not because they care about their population’s well-being.

There are a lot of maps, including Greek and Roman ones. The region, including much more than the British Mandate, WAS Israel till Romans came and renamed it “Palestine”. But until 1948, indigenous people have not governed that area until Israel was reborn. There is no reason that the Arabs of that area cannot also govern a “Palestine”—the famous second state.

Many Israelis are concluding that most Moslems have no intention of permitting a Jewish-majority state to exist, and are just nibbling away at it piece by piece until it’s small and vulnerable enough to overrun. I suspect that is true as well, but the Israelis WILL fight. Because it’s an open society, of course young people read everything published in the left/liberal press about “occupiers” of Judea and Samaria, and some soldiers have refused to serve in the territories. But if their back is to a wall again, they WILL fight. There is a fair number of American-Israeli dual citizens in the North Bay. Some of them have been returning to Israel as a result of the last couple of years’ developments, and so have some of their children as they graduate to high school, to serve in the IDF for two years before college. I’m not a dual citizen but would go back myself if my husband were also Jewish. (He says he would be happy living there but for the size of the place; would run out of territory to explore in a month, and couldn’t just cross a border as you can in the States and find more open spaces.) No matter how old you are, you can always take some job that would free up a younger reservist. Meanwhile there are other things I can do from here.   

I have Iranian friends who cannot live there and are here not out of choice but exigency, and THEY don’t know what will happen. There are huge numbers of moderate, civilized, Western-culture-oriented Iranians but the mullahs still have the upper hand. The question is what the mullahs now deem most important, and no one, not even Ahmadinejad or Khatami, knows with any degree of certainty what they might be thinking.

Even the Jerusalem Report comes out with pro-Palestinian pieces; I misspoke: pro-Palestinian propaganda, not analysis, is what I meant. At least a third of the stuff in my MidEast libary is by Arabs and Persians and sympathizers of same as well as writers and historians of other ethnic groups. “Comparative” is important. I even have nearly everything Chomsky wrote. Don’t you agree he would be OK with Israel surviving as long as everyone in the region was OK with it and there was no fighting involved?

I particularly like this line:

>> They also know that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child. but could care less.

The same could be said of the Palestinians, but that’s when Israel complains that the Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their children.

Speaking of maps and history Sepharad,

Can you please comment on this?

http://www.kadaitcha.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/palestineshrinks.jpg

mech’elsamberg,

>> Sepharad, its nice seeing a post here without the boo hoo, Israel is so bad mentality.

Just out of curiosity.  When a suicide bomb goes off in Tel Aviv, do you dismiss the grief that ensues as boo hoo,  Hamas is so bad mentality?

Sepharad, its nice seeing a post here without the boo hoo, Israel is so bad mentality. And I agree’  Not all the anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic.  Many of them are just misguided and like sheep, they follow the “cause du jour” without uttering anything except the usual anti-Israel garbage.  A friend sent me the Yashiko Sagamori questions.  No need for a website or links.  I thought it was brilliant.  I doubt if they allow us to post our email addresses but you can contact me off list at gmail.  mechelsamberg

Sepharad,

Re Iran, here is an article that will put hings in perspective for you.

On Iran, Barack Obama is no Chamberlain http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082568.html

“Perhaps the solution is to try something still untried: dialogue, lifting the sanctions and authorizing American businessmen to do in Iran what their Russian, Chinese, German and French colleagues have been doing for years: To see Iran as a partner in conflicts where it has influence, like in Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, as well as with Hamas and Hezbollah. Not by coercion, but by recognizing that Iran has accumulated political power in the region over the years. Perhaps, had George W. Bush adopted such a policy, the Iranian threat would look different. Had Bill Clinton taken another step beyond permission to export nuts and carpets to the United States, maybe Tehran would now have an American nuclear reactor for producing electricity.

Barack Obama is no Chamberlain. He does not carry an umbrella - he carries a big stick, even though he might speak softly to Iran. Of course, we can always continue enjoying the panic. But Obama’s approach is better. “

You’ll have to forgive me for using pro Palestinians sources.

beerdoc—In most recent post forgot to add your name to Shingo’s in opening sentence. Yes, Israel has always been a great inconvenience to the U.S. because of oil and now America’s fear of nuclear weapons in Iran.

Re AIPAC Rosen/Weissman: see my Mar 2 comments 12:46 and 3:14. And please tell Waldozi that Pelosi is Italian, not Jewish.

Re America giving money to Israel: This is a reasonable question (in a but-what-have-you-done-for-me-lately sort of way). Some obvious payback: agricultural innovation (drip irrigation and many more), environmental progress, and medical and biotech research breakthroughs, not to mention musicians and literature and scholarship. Also, the presence of a democratic, modernized country on the Eastern Mediterranean that is capable of being an example for and cooperating with developing Mideastern and Central Asian countries should be worth protecting even if you don’t think Jews need a country in which they are a majority. Israeli Arabs have a far different life—economically, educationally speaking—than mainstream Arabs in other countries less developed. Saddam was modernizing the Sunni portion of Iraq but not the Shi’ia, and hardly democratically; Iran is modernized in its weaponry and, in the urban areas, its society, but the rural portions are mostly poor and not educated beyond the madrassahs (like Pakistan), which breeds crime and every sort of religious extremism, especially since that religion emphasizes the fact that there is no real life on earth, only after you die and go to paradise. Joe Hill was right when he moved people to join and support labor unions with the song/slogan “There’s pie in the sky when you die? That’s a lie.”

Many Arabs want Israel to disappear because it’s very close by, apt to make their own citizens question whether their Islamic pie in the sky IS all there is. What to do if their own citizens see that even Moslems can have good lives, educate their children. Why do you think Turkey alone is the only Moslem ally Israel has? Because Turkey has always been the most open Moslem country, the one that 1) sent its diplomats et al to the Western countries in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries on to study Western customs and devices to see if there wasn’t something to benefit to their own people and 2) under Kemal Ataturk developed a secular society that became so much a part of Turkish culture that even under an Islamic party’s President, Turkey’s government remains based on rationalism and completely separate from Islamic law.
(Most Kurds are also well-disposed to Israel, but not having their own country their support is limited.) India has also been a friend to Jews in general and Israel, as well as China though they don’t let their friendship inferfere with doing business. 

Re Israel’s current government: Tzipi Livni DID get more votes than Netanyahu but couldn’t put together a government because she refused to include the religious parties. Quite rightly, in my opinion, but now Israel is led by two men whose policies I can’t support. I don’t think either Israel or the U.S. or anyone else should attack Iran. The Sunni states, the Euros and the U.S. to contain Iran, but first want Israel to get out of the West Bank. I think they should too, but given that Hezbollah and Hamas are Iranian proxies, it is very risky for Israel to back out of territory before Iran is settled. I doubt Iran would nuke Israel, but Hezbollah and Hamas are of the pie in the sky school. Hence Israel’s insistence re shutting tunnels to Gaza. Israel was OK not responding to being hit by Iraq’s scuds during the Gulf War, but that didn’t pose the existential threat that Hezbollah and Hamas does, supplied by Iran

I think Obama will do whatever is best for the U.S. I hope he will persuade the Euros and Arabs that however they choose to contain Iran, it won’t also sell Israel down the river to the Muslim fanatics.

gawd my spelling!! Sorry…I had better rest my hands..just didtn want you PhDs to think I hadnt noticed..lol teasing

Sepharad,

You are far to inteligent to be using such spurious and dishonest arguments.

Why do you pretend that those with serious migivings abtou Israel’s actions are only interested demonizing Israel? it is false to suggest that Noam Chomsky is oposed to the exietence of Israel.  It is also higly spurious to suggest that Israel is an ancestral homeland to those who have no connection to Israel other than theh afct that they happen to be of Jewish denoimination.  Not all Catholics are entitled to return to the Vatican now are they?

And please, do us a favor and drop the patently dissigneusous slur that anyone expects Israel to lay down and commit suicide.  That argument is used to justify everything from legitmate security to settelment expansion.

Hezbollah and Hamas are not Iranian proxies.  Neither was created by Iran and both exist in pite of Iran.  You pknoew perfectly well that Hezbollah woudl not exist were it not for Isral’s 18 year occcupation of Laebanon and that Hamas would not exist had Israel not supported and fianced it to begin with.

The reason Israel has never used nuclear weapons on Hamas or Hezbollah is becasue it would be both highly unecessary (F-16s, Apache helicopters, 500lb bombs, white phosphorous and cluster bombs usualyl suffice) and becasue neither represents any threat to ISrael’s existence.

The Sunni governments you refer too are by and large, all tyrancies and dictatorshiops, which by definition are typicalyl paranoid about the population at large and defending their stranglehold oon power.

Iran of course it no threat to anyone. They haven’t atatcked on invaded any other state for over 300 years.  In the case fo Iran, tehre is nothing to contain.  The nucler power program is for energy production - the worst case one could make against iran is that one day, they might decide to make nukes.

The real threat to peace is Israel, who are makign almost daily threats abot attacking Iran.

The present Israeli government are extremists who for the first time, reject a 2 state solution. they are merely trumpetting the so called threat to stopnewall and delay peace negotiations as they have doen for decades.

Maps and history point to the irreutable reality that ISrael is not the same country that was recognozed in 1948.  History shows that Israel continuies to occupy land that does not belong to it and behave in contravention of intentaional law and nearly 100 UNSC resolutions.

Whether Israel would fight to the last man, woman and child is also debatable, uless you are talking about Arab men, women and children.  One of the reasons given for the humilitating defate of 2006 was the notion that IDF solidiers were not willing to ptu their lives on the line for their country.  Theyh say that when you fight a weak eneymy, you yourself become weak, and this could be said of Israel, who have no stomach for death tools when it comes to wars.

There were just about 5 min of a talk by Jewish Youth Conf on c-span 3. Then it was gone…they are showing an old rerun of the Immigration Debate, and, Vitter is talking about how paying taxes wil make CEOS lay people off instead of cuting their own huge salaries a little…all the uS “reps” there seem to be of the born again christian variety. But, we didnt get to see much of it..

so relevant.

foggyjones—That is certainly an assignment!.I have watched what little they are covering. I watched bits of videos at theAIPAC ite. The Jewish Peace Conference says that coverage is “uneven”.

It soundsl like neo-cons blustering to me, but, my pc is too slow to watch much video and CSPAN on tv just hasnt covered much…

anyone seen anything beyond Gingrich and Pence?

Sepharad, I am sorry to hear that the Roma are being killed again.  they were systamtically killed by the Nazies. Governments tend to have a hard time with them because of their traditionl means of livelihood.

When we were in Rome a guartet of male and female gypsies distracted us while one tried to pick my pocket.  And stealing occurred routinely on the crowded buses as well.  It’s irritating but under liberal capitalism it is difficult to do anything constructive about it.  A joyful people, but need to attain other means of living.

mech’elsamberg, you have to realize that except for Shingo and KDelphi (and possibly Sodium, who is highly knowledgeable re Islamic cultures and never publishes anything he does not think is true, though he’s an old-line Arabist at heart, like the British colonialists and much of the U.S. State Department throughout the 20th century), you’re arguing with a lot of ideologists who only are interested demonizing Israel and like to use quotes from Jews who are opposed to Israel’s existence ranging from Noam Chomsky to those rabbis who think that Jews shouldn’t return to Israel until the Messiah himself arrives (in a cloud? a burning bush? who knows?) to conduct them back home personally. I.e., G-d forbid that any Jew be so presumptuous to return to their own ancestral homeland on their own volition without divine leadership. Some TD posters adapt their positions out of political correctness, some out of pure anti-Semitism (which is getting out of hand here as it is in Europe, the difference being that the EU recognizes it as hiding behind anti-Zionism and has established, through their Parliament, a separate commission to deal with it). The only American public figure I can recall as coming right out and saying that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism was Martin Luther King, Jr. I don’t think that it’s anti-Semitic to criticize a specific Israeli policy, obviously, as Israelis and supporters of Israel frequently argue and criticize government policy. But on this thread, mostly you encounter criticism of any Israeli policy that does not involve laying down and dying or proactively committing suicide.

My own position isn’t far from Benny Morris’ two-state solution which includes pre-‘67 borders for Israel and an additional hunk of land of the East Bank (all of Jordan was once part of British Palestine; the French took other portions of it to expand their Syrian and Lebanon holdings under Sykes-Picot). HOWEVER, this would only work if Iranian proxies (Hezbollah and Hamas) are not handed nuclear weapons to use on Israel. Of course Israel has never used nuclear weapons on Hamas or Hezbollah, but both of those groups are made up of people who believe the real life is not here but in the paradisiacal afterlife. The Sunni governments are also extremely concerned about this problem so there is a chance for regional cooperation among Israel and the other Arab governments to join the Euros and US in containing Iran. Problem is the Sunnis, Euros and Obama want Israel back in the pre-‘67 borders BEFORE they contain Iran and think this would help them achieve that goal, but the present Israeli government disagrees. It would be an extraordinarly risky thing for Israel to do, and there would have to be some real guarantees of protection. In writing. I think Tzipi Livni would have agreed given guarantees, so I hope Netanyahu will consider it. But working this out is going to be difficult.

I’m a secular Zionist with family in Israel and an American citizen, committed to Israel’s continuing existence and America’s best interests. I think that both are entwined, but it’s a very tricky line to walk. Most people on TD are not sufficiently interested to think it all out and fall back on simplistic, comfortable perspectives offered by pro-Palestinian propaganda. Maps and history are not in the cards here: exotica is more appealing to the average TDer. You’ll never change their inclinations; like the old Russian Jews who’d disown young men and women who wanted to fight back, most of these people are more comfortable with Ann Frank and dead Jews than they are with Jews who fight back. They also know that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child. but could care less.

Where in the world did you find the Japanese questions? How did they come to be created? (Good examples of questions never asked by TDers.)

mech’elsamberg,

>>  And you should be the one ashamed of yourself for turning on your own people and supporting terrorists like Hamas.

Seeing as Israel create dHamas to begin with, shouldn’t you also be ashamed?

>> Oh, please.  Spare me the BS.  Zionist this, Zionist that.  In the old days it was Jew this and Jew that.

Sorry, you cwon’t be spared.  We happen to be talking about Zionist this, Zionist that.

>>  answer the questions i sent to the gaza tunnel article with my own reply “A Japanese View of the Palestinians”.

The Jasense view of Palestinians has nothign to do with the Gaza tunnel.  And since when did Japan become relevant to the issue fo Palestine?

mech’elsamberg,

part 1 of 2

>> Is the world just plain stupid? 

No they have just woken up tot ehg racist, facsit and terrorist nature of Israel.

>> If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,” I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :

Very obvious attemtp to derail the argument.  The notion fo a state is a Wester invention.  There were no “contries” in the Arab Peninsula and Middle Wast until the British Empire created arbitrary borders to delineate them.  What has always existed is the concept of land and land ownership.

>> 1. When was it founded and by whom?

What does it matter?

>> 2.  What were its borders?

Where are Israel’s borders?

>> 3.  What was its capital?

What is Israel’s Capital;?  tel Avib or Jersualem?

>> 4.  What were its major cities?

Ask Moshe Dayan.  Most of them don’t exist anymore becasue Israel destroyed them and built Israel town and cities in their place.  When Israel was created, Arabs were title holders to 50% of the Land and Jews 7%.  The only way to create a Jewish state was to enthncially cleanse the Arabs off the land.

>> 5.  What constituted the basis of its economy?

Agriculture and merchants.
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> 6.  What was its form of government?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> 7.  Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> 8.  Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

Until the British created their arbitrary borders, there were no countries in the Middle East.  The UN Resolution and Balfour Delcarration called for the land to be shared between the Arabs and the Jews. The Jews wanted a Jewish state, which mean driving out the Arabs.

9.  What was the language of the country of Palestine ?

There were a number of languaged.  Arabic was one of them.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?

mech’elsamberg,

Part 2 of 2

When?  Before or After the Ottoman Empire?

>> 11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date. 

Irrelevant.  What was the Jordanian or Eg\yptian currency at the time?

>> 12. And, finally, since there is no such country today,  what caused its demise and when did it occur?

It started in 1948 with thge ethnic cleasing of 700-800 thousand Arab from the land and has continnued to this day.

>> You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation.  Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?

They look pretty proud to me or does this look like a land wihout a people?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over—or thrown out of—the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

Rubbish.  The Palestinians were fofered an independent state buthe British in retprun for driving out the Ottoman Empire.

>> I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day “Palestinians” to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won’t work here.

Why?  becasue it is inconvenient?  It’s a historical fact.  On th other hand, the Jewish link to the land has beenlong debunked.

>> Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel ; they still cherish it today.

Lie.  22 Arab countries have offerded a peace tretry which recpognizes Israel as per the 1967 broider and to normalize relations with Isrsel,  Israel has rejected the offer.

>> How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the “West Bank” and Gaza , respectively?

Rubbsih.  Those 22 Arabs states include Jordan and Egypt.

>> The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them.

Not a fact a lie.  The Arabs have been there for thousand fo years.  Arab towns like Jericho date back before the creation fo Judaism.

>> The so-called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel , and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation

That’s just a racist lie usex to defend the indefensible.

>> In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East . Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it.

Hillarius.  That’s like arguinf the West should pay reprerations for the devastation inflicted on Germany.

thebeerdr—it is just a bundle of contradictions , isnt it?

To all those who make apologies for the United States government giving tax payers money to Israel, without question. Perhaps you can explain the double speak found at this link posted below:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-05-04-voa47.cfm

mech—I’m not typing in that link—could be full of viruses…or do you mean this:
“Statement by the Press Secretary/Director-General for Press and Public Relations, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, on the Recent Situation in the Gaza Strip
February 5, 2009
Japanese

The recent confiscation of the aid supplies from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) by police personnel in the Gaza Strip is extremely deplorable.  The Government of Japan strongly condemns this incident and demands that the confiscated aid supplies be returned immediately.
 
The Government of Japan is actively making efforts to help improve the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip through emergency humanitarian assistance equivalent to 10 million dollars and providing blankets and other goods as assistance in kind.  It hopes that the international community including the relevant parties will work together for the smooth delivery of the humanitarian assistance to the affected people

http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/announce/2009/2/1187763_1128.html

Good for the Japanesse!

foggy, re gypsies, is that why the Hungarians recently killed some of them? Because they were “jolly people” but thought themselves smarter than non-gypsies as they picked pockets? Not really. The Hungarians attacked the gypsies because they were angry about their economic turmoil—understandable—and needed a focus for all that anger. Did it matter that it wasn’t gypsies (or any other ethnic group) who screwed up the economy? Apparently not. It was just easier to attack gypsies than to attack bad government policies, bankers and speculators. Has dead gypsies helped the Hungarian economy? Of course not.

answer the questions i sent to the gaza tunnel article with my own reply “A Japanese View of the Palestinians”.

re: KDelphi

Thanks for the Newt Gingrich/ AIPAC video link. Sounds like the boy from Cobb Count is itching to take Barry’s job. Obama will have to grovel even further, if he is to keep his Zionist base.
Newt certainly spells it out, does he not? AIPAC means civilization, which means more cluster bombs, more jet fighters, more attack helicopters, more missiles and more tanks. What is most troubling is that Gingrich, being the unethical stooge, is just the sort of worthless chap that many will find appealing, which could force the holy Obama to take up Israel’s war against Iran, just to prove to that crowd that he will take up their agenda. Face it truthdiggers, without the AIPAC money and its related interests, Barry would not be President of the United States. He knows this, the Zionist interests in Washington and Hollywood know this. Only citizens on the outside believe the Internet campaign myth. If you do not believe that Barack Obama serves as a Zionist stooge for the Israeli lobby, I have 2 words for you: Joe Biden.

Mike Pence says that his “christian faith compels him”—to support Israel…

until jesus comes back, I guess…then, what? get saved now, save time.

Oh, please.  Spare me the BS.  Zionist this, Zionist that.  In the old days it was Jew this and Jew that.

mech—You are the one who has “turned on your own people” by disparaging their names around the world, with a militaristic and Zionist vision.

Who, exactly, do you think that this is “good” for?

Brigitte Gabriel and Nonie Darwish would tell you more about the “culture of peace” than I ever could.

A piece of dreck?  LMAO. And you should be the one ashamed of yourself for turning on your own people and supporting terrorists like Hamas.

Newt Gingrich calls for Crusade…at AIPAC…even Jewish Voices for Peace, protests. Genocide, boycotts , and starve people out…“lgst single organization involved in insuring ‘Merkin safety…two are permanently intertwined”. Islam is “anti-civilization”...you gotta hear this..

http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/Learn_About_AIPAC/2841_24598.asp

mech—Lets just guess what you “ethnic identity"is..

All Americans will have dual citizenship with Israel?  LMAO.  Who writes this material?  An Afghan warlord or something?

mech, you Zionist piece of dreck, I am a Jew and what Jews and the American people have to learn from history is to fight bloodthirsty Zionist lemmings like you.  You are a disgrace to the Jewish people and are helping to lead to a historical catasrophe.

What is especially important is to get Zionists out of the US power structure or to neutralize their power before Israel engages in nueclear war or agenicide of the Palestinians.  You are the enemy of the Jewish people and, fortunately, the Jewish people are beginning to realize it.

As an Afghan warlord is quoted as having giving his opinion on AIPAC/Jane Harman in particular, ” what is expected to take place in America by 2020 is that everyone will be forced to become a dual Israeli/American citizen and adopt the logo for its military of hunting for J and M.”

A “genuine ethnic identity” is required to allow self-determination? The US is screwed!!

Sharing a relevant list of questions relating to Palestinian pride and Palestinian statehood.

.
       

A Japanese View of the’ Palestinians’

    Couldn’t have said it better.

Talk about one picture being worth a THOUSAND words. 

cid:1.3784564179@web83604.mail.sp1.yahoo.com

Is the world just plain stupid?   

  An interesting questionnaire for Palestinian Advocates
By Yashiko Sagamori

If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,” I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine : 

1.  When was it founded and by whom?

2.  What were its borders?

3.  What was its capital?

4.  What were its major cities?

5.  What constituted the basis of its economy?

6.  What was its form of government?

7.  Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

8.  Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

9.  What was the language of the country of Palestine ?

10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?

11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.

12. And, finally, since there is no such country today,  what caused its demise and when did it occur?

You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation.  Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?

And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over—or thrown out of—the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day “Palestinians” to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won’t work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it.  Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel ; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “the Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza , Judea, and Samaria . How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the “West Bank” and Gaza , respectively?

The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel , and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation”—or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.

In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East . Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza , Judea, and Samaria .

That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?

LMAO.  I love the so-called peaceniks.  “Zion-nazi” is such a friendly and peaceful term, ain’t it?  You are deluded to think Obama and Biden are “friends” to Israel?  Guess again.

Biden is a Trojan Horse for AIPAC?

No he is not! He is the Vice President of the United States of America!!

(and he had better wake up to that fact!)

>> I knew they were innocent which is why the case was dropped.

I keep staring at that sentence… marveling at it, really.

>> No, what we have learned from history is that the Jews are no longer going to be scapegoats and blamed for all the ills of the world. 

Yeah, poor little Jonathan Pollard.  Just an innocent victim of circumstance right mech’elsamberg?

So what you’re saying is that if Israel is going to be scapegoats and blamed for all the ills of the world, then it might as well do it?

>> Too bad Jews started to learn to fight back and we ain’t going anywhere.

That’s like saying Hitler was fighting back because the Jewish community pissed him off.

No, what we have learned from history is that the Jews are no longer going to be scapegoats and blamed for all the ills of the world.  Those same Jew haters now blame Zionism instead since that is the new politically correct term.  Too bad Jews started to learn to fight back and we ain’t going anywhere.

Sometimes one is tempted to agree with Hegel that the only thing people learn from history is that people don’t learn anything from history.

I knew they were innocent which is why the case was dropped.  Its all part of that ANTI-ZIONIST PLOT to OVERTAKE THE WORLD.

Americans don’t know their history and repeat their errors over and over again. Faced with a rising tide of European immigration, the colonies then the states and finally the feds established new territories right on top of the native American nations. Stealing land from Mexico, the indiginous Spanish found much in common with the native American experience. Rather than give Jewish survivors German land (with Baltic access, certainly a just resolution considering the Final Solution), the US fell onboard with the Zionist plan. Well, it all sounded familiar—just move those uncivilised barbarians somewhere else. But like Geranamo and the Apache Resistance, the Palestinians didn’t back down in the face of American and British bullying. Progressively looking forward, never looking back, the American Empire is easily unmoored and lacks a general plan. It’s endurance will probably match that of the British Empire, and its legacy equivalent to that of France, without their fine culture.

So, Condi gets off again. I guess Harmon must be very good at what she does, which is not what her job is supposed to be. Her speech at AIPAC should be “interesting”...

thebeerdr—Do you not think that it is strange that the pic of (Sen.) Obama in Muslim garb was considred a hugely negative deal, yet the pic of him with a yamika was considered almost sacred? They should get pics of him in a Bishops hat, a monk’s cap, etc. Dont forget the hunting outfit!

Did anyone see the show on pbs, “At Home in Utopia”, ie the Jewish garment workers union (United Workers Cooperative Colony), on Independent Lens ? It was very good…

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/athomeinutopia/

That link may not lead to the video, as I had to disable add-ons, my browser crashed…it reminds people of what is must have been like to be Jewish in the uS before the Israeli lobbies took over…

hey foggyjones;

Get your act together:

I don’t know who Shirley is for starters and why you’re dragging whoever she is into this is beyond me.

Please read all of the article at Counterpunch.org before you go off.
The writer was throwing some irony out there O. K.?
You know what irony is I trust?

The writer is making a statement on the cozy relationship between the Israeli lobby and the U. S. Government.

Again, read all of the links before you go off.

Meanwhile, brush up on the use of a word processor for posting to these comments.

You could surely use one.

This story is about an issue that is not one of my top ten, except that it pertains to how broken our government is. As I have pointed out earlier, our government is for the lobbyists, by the lobbyists and of the lobbyists.

Pertaining to the pro Israeli Lobby we have this bit-I’ve given the citation at the end.

Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars.
According to the U.S. Agency for International Development’s (USAID) “Greenbook,” which reports “overseas loans and grants,” Israel has received $140,142,800 (in constant 2003 dollars) from the United States through 2003. Downloaded from the “Greenbook” web site [http://qesdb.cdie.org/gbk/] on November 8, 2005.
 
Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America’s foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year.
According to the “Greenbook,” Israel received about $3.7 billion in direct aid from the United States in 2003. Israel’s population according to the International Institute for Strategic Studies [IISS] and the CIA is 6,276,883. IISS, The Military Balance: 2005, 2006 (Oxfordshire: Routledge, 2005), p. 192; http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/. That averages out to $589 per Israeli. If one assumes the same population size and $3 billion in total aid, then each Israeli receives $478.  .

Israel also gets other special deals from Washington.
For a discussion of the various special deals that Israel receives, see Clyde R. Mark, “Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance,” Issue Brief for Congress (Washington, DC: Congressional Research Service, April 26, 2005). 
Other aid recipients get their money in quarterly installments, but Israel receives its entire appropriation at the beginning of each fiscal year and thus earns extra interest. Most recipients of American military assistance are required to spend all of it in the United States, but Israel can use roughly twenty-five percent of its aid allotment to subsidize its own defense industry. Israel is the only recipient that does not have to account for how the aid is spent, an exemption that makes it virtually impossible to prevent the money from being used for purposes the United States opposes, like building settlements in the West Bank.
http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf

From Gary Leupp at Counterpunch.org:
http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp05012009.html

I think we should see the dismissal of the Rosen-Weissman case by the Justice Department in this context. It’s a sop to the Lobby, and apparently the president had a personal hand in it. If the U.S. will not bomb Iran for Israel, neither will it prosecute AIPAC members for spying for Israel. Fair enough?

whose side is Biden on, anyway??

so our Vice President is on the AIPAC program with a Congresswoman guilty of Treason,

that is just great!

and a “Democrat”,

how can they have her as a speaker when she has been outed like this?? (on tape! in the New York Times!)

this only proves the complete lack of ethics here.

Virginia et al.

Ms. Jane Harman is reported to be the second richest women in Congress. Its also reported that she will be second most vip speaker after Joe Biden at the AIPAC confab.

check it out.http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/Learn_About_AIPAC/23297.asp

look who else is involved here:

“The investigation of Mr. Rosen and Mr. Weissman also surfaced recently in news reports that Representative Jane Harman, a California Democrat long involved in intelligence matters, was overheard on a government wiretap discussing the case…Ms. Harman was overheard agreeing with an Israeli intelligence operative to try to intercede with Bush administration officials to obtain leniency for Mr. Rosen and Mr. Weissman in exchange for help in persuading Democratic leaders to make her chairwoman of the House Intelligence Committee.”

This is terrible news, the Obama administration MUST free itself from AIPAC’s clenches,

this HAS to happen or our whole country will follow them into self-made ruin.

How about the New York Times following this advice as well!!

the question is not whether a Zionist is religious or not but whether she identifies with Israeli power.  And Zinist power in the US.  The US has imported barbaric Zionist values and has made them part of US foreign and domestic policy.  Obama-Bush drones bombing homes in Pakistan morph directly from Israel’s targeted assassinations.  US torture, still being carried out in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc, often by Israelis, is imported from Israel.

As Israel becomes increasingly barbaric, exiting the revulsion of the whole world, Sepharad’s task of damage control becomes harder.  As Zionist historical cesnsorship is broken, as Zionist McCarthyism in the universities become increasingly blatant, as Zionism frantically tries to censor the truth to the American population, the Zionist truth becomes increasingly corrupt as Zionist policy becomes increasingly beastial.

There is a recent book by the Israeli military historian van Cleland which points the way to the Ziionist future called THE CULTURE OF WAR.  The book could more accurately be called THE JOY OF MASS MURDER.  He argures that to maintain a good military you have to foster militarism, including the love of bloodshed.

And the Israeli aremy does.  What Sepharad calls the ‘most moral army in the world’ sells t-shirts that glorify the killing of women and children and sends rabbis to the troops to argue against being merciful.  So she has to divert attention with junk truths in order to perforn her journilist task of damage control.

And she is the most intelligent and personable of the Zionist fanatics.  Zionists like Inherit simply make stuff up out of whole cloth, like accusing Ed Harges of supporting the creation of a Caliphate of three quarters of a billion Arabs.  But when the choice is between defending Zionism or defending truth, the fanatics will choose the former.

To the detrement of the Palesitians, the Israeli people, the American people, and the Jewish people.

Why is it hard for some people to accept the fact that once the US has made it known in more ways than one that Israel is special and has special priviliges as an ally. Then ipso facto the US has created a number of opponenets both Arab/muslims and others.

Like the saying in Alabama goes “youse make your bed you lie in it”.

If on the other the US is as principled as it wants the world to believe she is;- legally, morally and politically principled the US must insist on Israel observing the orginal territorial outlines as set by UN Resolutions 242, 248 etc.

Anything less is BS. As things stand now there are some 5 million Jews/zionists/israelis surrounded by 9 million Palestenians in the Gaza compound, the West Bank and Palestinian refugees in Jordan and Lebanon and the Israelis are still clinging to the colonial dreams of Eretz Israel the inevitable end result will be ONE entity with the Israelis a minority.

By thebeerdoctor, May 3 at 5:49 am #

re: Sepharad

“I must say I admire your tenacity to defend Israel, in what you probably won’t admit is an untenable position. By that I mean, you assert that Israel is a U.S. ally, an ally to what in this present time I find to be a mystery, since the cold war has long since passed, and that the Israeli role as America’s junkyard dog in the Middle East, has evaporated.”
====================
Thank you, the beerdoctor, for your pointed and well-reasoned response to Sepharad. This is, more or less, what I would have said if I decided to response to her.

But actually, I have decided sometime ago that she does not merit my response. Though, on the surface, she does not come as an ugly Zionist propagandist as few others, she nevertheless is a fanatic secular Zionist who in reality is no different than the fanatic religious Zionists, as you rightly pointed out.

Any elected,or appointed Person acting within the realm of Public Servant must relinquish any Duel citizenship. The Oath to protect and defend the Constitution and thus the citizesn of this country makes citizenship exclusive.
If someone is so adverse to revoking their citizenship to another country- they should not be allowed to take the pledge or act in anyway which demands singular allegience.
This Duelity invalidates and thus Betrays the very oath.
As for Foreign Lobbist in DC, they undermine the very reason we have a State Dept and a President.Foreign leaders represent their people through these official lines of communication- any other avenue is outside the boundries of international cooperation and negotiations. International leadership now has the glaring reality of what happens when backroom deals are made through unofficial means.Global Leaders must rein in the hapahazard, ill fated profit ventures of Multinationals once and for all.They not only need toget their ‘heads around’ this globalization, they need to get their Arms around it- tight.

Sepharad,

What you call “secular zionists” are as guilty
as what you call “religious zionists”.
Both of them have inflected and inflecting tremenodus
suffering and injustice on the Paletinian people.
Both of them stole the palestinian land and committed
unspeakable atrocities.
Do you think the recent destruction of Gaza was done
only by what you call “religious zionists”.
Israel whether it is secular or religious nation is
cruel, racist apartheid state.
The suffering of the Palestinians because of Israel
is much mor that the previous suffering of the blacks in apartheid South Africa.

re: Sepharad

I must say I admire your tenacity to defend Israel, in what you probably won’t admit is an untenable position. By that I mean, you assert that Israel is a U.S. ally, an ally to what in this present time I find to be a mystery, since the cold war has long since passed, and that the Israeli role as America’s junkyard dog in the Middle East, has evaporated. But as propaganda agitation to the Arab and Muslim worlds, Israel proves time and again to be a never ending resource. The recent dust up with Switzerland proves a remarkable example of this; because Switzerland chooses to do business with Iran, Israel cries foul and calls for further squeezing of the Shia theocratic state, which President Obama goes along with like the dutiful puppet that he is.
No, the real beef about the entire Israel thing is why in God’s green acre, does a Jewish state that manufactures its own weapons, need to receive military welfare from the United States? As long as Israel demands to be a welfare client of the United States, and refuses to get on with it, without U.S. assistance, then all the talk about Jewish self determination and achievement, is taken as a cruel and ironic joke.
I also can see that you being a pragmatist and a Zionist becomes more difficult everyday. All you have to do is read the statements of Foreign Minister Lieberman to realize that moderate thinking has largely become a relic of the past. A moment of honesty is in order here: listen to how the leadership in Israel continually cries havoc about Iran and wants, and soon may demand, to let slip the dogs of war.
Jeremy Scahill recently said about Iraq: “Iraq is not a success story, nor is it an operation to be proud of. Anyone who calls the deaths of a million people a success is sick.”
I think that could equally be applied to the recent assault on Gaza. If 1300 deaths is a success, please tell me what is failure?
Israel has stolen land, they do not want to give it back. The have the United States military to make sure it stays that way. The occupation of lands by Israel that continues unabated, prove what Joseph Conrad said about “robbery with violence” which supposedly is sustained by an idea. But in the case of Israel, what exactly is that idea?

Folktruther & Robert, you guys have to get your Zionists straight. Secular Zs have no desire for, wish for, or need for this holylandgreaterisrael thing. Religious Zs are a whole other species, and trust me: there is much more of a difference between those two groups than there is between me & you & probably Fadel. But we’ve gone round and round on this before. No point in boring other people unless there is something new and useful. BTW, found an interesting book today by Iranian Reza Aslan, who grew up in Oklahoma and is currently teaching creative writing at UC Riverside & senior fellow of Orfalae Center at UC Santa Barbara. I read parts of this book in the bookstore until deciding it has some perspectives I might have overlooked, given my secular socialist orientation. Called “How to Win a Cosmic War: God, Globalization, and the End of the War on Terror.” Am determined to finish two other books first so it’ll be another week before I get to it even if it keeps raining all day. If you’ve seen it would like your assessment of it. (He wrote another book earler, “No God But God”, which was translated into 13 languages and short-listed for the Guardian First Book Award, which I know nothing about. Never heard of or read it; usually stick to history rather than interpretation. But he must be getting something right.) If there is a way to end this godawful mess I am all ears. The book I just bought seems to grapple with both the necessity and problem of democracy in the Middle East.

Professor’s comparison of Israelis to Nazis stirs furor

By Duke Helfand

April 30, 2009

“Controversy has erupted at UC Santa Barbara over a professor’s decision to send his students an e-mail in which he compared graphic images of Jews in the Holocaust to pictures of Palestinians caught up in Israel’s recent Gaza offensive.

The e-mail by tenured sociology professor William I. Robinson has triggered a campus investigation and drawn accusations of anti-Semitism from two national Jewish groups, even as many students and faculty members have voiced support for him. 

The uproar began in January when Robinson sent his message—titled “parallel images of Nazis and Israelis”—to the 80 students in his sociology of globalization class.

The e-mail contained more than two dozen photographs of Jewish victims of the Nazis, including those of dead children, juxtaposed with nearly identical images from the Gaza Strip. It also included an article critical of Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians and a note from Robinson.

“Gaza is Israel’s Warsaw—a vast concentration camp that confined and blockaded Palestinians,” the professor wrote. “We are witness to a slow-motion process of genocide.”

Two Jewish students dropped the class, saying they felt intimidated by the professor’s message. They contacted the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which advised them to file formal complaints with the university.

In their letters, senior Rebecca Joseph and junior Tova Hausman accused Robinson of violating the campus’ faculty code of conduct by disseminating personal, political material unrelated to his course.

“I was shocked,” said Joseph, 22. “He overstepped his boundaries as a professor. He has his own freedom of speech, but he doesn’t have the freedom to send his students his own opinion that is so strong.”

Robinson, 50, who is Jewish, called the accusations and the campus investigation an attack on academic freedom. He said his former students, the Wiesenthal Center and the Anti-Defamation League had all confused his criticism of Israeli policies with anti-Semitism.

“That’s like saying if I condemn the U.S. government for the invasion of Iraq, I’m anti-American,” he said. “It’s the most absurd, baseless argument.”

Robinson said he regularly sends his students voluntary reading material about current events for the global affairs course, and that no one raised questions when he subsequently discussed his e-mail.

“The whole nature of academic freedom is to introduce students to controversial material, to provoke students to think and make students uncomfortable,” said Robinson, a UC Santa Barbara professor for nine years.

As the dispute over his e-mail plays out, UC Santa Barbara has become the most recent U.S. university to confront campus unrest over issues related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

In recent years, Jewish and Muslim groups have quarreled repeatedly at UC Irvine about the Holocaust and Israeli policies toward the Palestinians. Professors and students at Columbia University have also argued over issues of intimidation and academic freedom amid debates on the Mideast.

In Robinson’s case, reaction has been strong—on both sides.

Shortly after hearing from the two students in January, the Wiesenthal Center produced a YouTube video titled “Jewish Students Under Siege from Professor at UC Santa Barbara.” The clip shows one of Robinson’s former students, her face obscured to protect her identity, reading from his e-mail.

The head of the ADL’s Santa Barbara region sent Robinson a letter in February calling on him to repudiate his statements about Israel. Last month, the ADL’s national director, Abraham Foxman, in a meeting with faculty members at the campus, urged the university to conduct an investigation into Robinson. He was told that an inquiry was already underway.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-professor30-2009apr30,0,7753995.story

By Folktruther, May 2 at 8:22 pm #

“robert- your statemet that Israel’s “so-called Democracy is purely for Jews” simply isn’t true.  It is purely for Jews who SUPPORT Zionist policies.  There is no democracy for Jews who OPPOSE it, as Israel’s treatment of Vannanu, Falk, Fincklestein and many others attest.  those Jews who support the Palestinians demonstrations againt the Israeli wall are beaten, shot, gassed and imprisoned like the others. Vannau, the son of a rabbi, was tortured for 18 years in prison, and is imprisnoed now, despite world wide support for him.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Folktruther…Many thanks for your comment & input. You are absolutely right & I’ll always remember what you have just advised me.

I always read your comments & you surely tell it like it is on many issues ; especially, Zionism/Israel.

Keep up the good work of spreading the TRUTH.

Ethnic cleansing Zionism is against the common interests of the Jewish people as well as the American people.  And it is a public relations necessity that the rich Zionists who fund it keep the Jewish people from realizing it.  It is against the common interests of the American people as well.  That is why Zionist Democracy is a fraud.

And that is why Zionism supports a police state in the US; spying on the American people, arbitrary imprisonment, travel hassle, torture, and informing on anti-Zionists, as Horriwitz’s organization does in American universities.  It is why Aipac’s Jane Harman supported the thought control bill that will probably be revived under Obama, to censor the internet and expression before any crime occurss. 

The barbarity of the US and Israeli power system cannot continue historically without the imposition of a postmodern police state and what Al Gore called, the title of his book, AN ASSAULT ON REASON.
Iraeli and American Democracy is consequently incresingly a fraud, for both Jews and non-Jews.

robert- your statemet that Israel’s “so-called Democracy is purely for Jews” simply isn’t true.  It is purely for Jews who SUPPORT Zionist policies.  There is no democracy for Jews who OPPOSE it, as Israel’s treatment of Vannanu, Falk, Fincklestein and many others attest.  those Jews who support the Palestinians demonstrations againt the Israeli wall are beaten, shot, gassed and imprisoned like the others. Vannau, the son of a rabbi, was tortured for 18 years in prison, and is imprisnoed now, despite world wide support for him.

Civil liberties and civil powerss for the population is not possible in a state based on ethnic cleansing.  Torture and arbitrary imprisonment is routine, and targeted murder institutionalized. AND THIS HAS BEEN IMPORTED IN THE US, AND IS TURNING THE US INTO A POLICE STATE.  Horriwitz is leading a campaign to turn students agaisnt their professors in universities to prevent them from telling the simple truth abaut political and social reality.  IF you oppose Zionism there is no democracy; zionists try to get you fired.

Zionism has to engage in censorship because what it is doning is so disreputable and immoral. It has to prevent Jews from kinowing about it. So they have journalists like Sepharad engage in Orwellian bullshit that ALL groups engage in censorhsip, and impliess that the Arabs censor in the US and Israel just as much as the Zionists.  Zionists so control the learned and mass media that the Jewish population are throughly obfuscated by orbull, and don’t understand the reality.  And are so emotional indoctrinated that most do not want to understand it.

Most people don’t know, just as I didn’t know till you, brewerstroupe, odwassy, etc documented, that the World Zionist Organization supported fascism.  Mose Jews assumed, without thinking about it, that the Jewish people tended to be liberal or socialist worldwide.  And this is true.  But JEWISH POWER, as exhibited in the religious nationalism of Zionism, supported Mussolini, as did many Italian Jews, and German Zionists supported Hitler in 1932.  A leader of Jewish fascism, Jablonsky, was buried in Israel with the support of Ben Gurion.  Who was a strong proponent of ethnic cleansing.

The Jewish people, like all the American people, don’t know this, and the function of journalists like Sepharad is to prevent them from finding out.  Which is why she sanitizes Zionist censorship.  The exact opposite of Voltaire’s famous statement is true: if you commit atrocities, you will believe absurdiites.  And it is the need to indoctrinate these absurdities in Jews as well as Americans that makes Zionist, including, Israeli, democracy a fraud.

sepharad wrote:
“But you and I both know that ALL special interest groups and politically motivated groups organize to suppress free speech and intimidate the speakers or writers all the time. E.g., pro-Palestinian groups mobilize on campuses and at public demonstrations to shut down pro-Israel comment.”
____________________________________________________

sepharad,

Why you single out pro-Palestinian groups whose numbers and influence is inifinitesimal compared to
pro-Israel zionist groups.
No one cna deny the strong zionist influence in colleges and universities exerted by a very large body of zionist pro-Israel students, administrators , professors and donors.
If there was the slightest whiff that an invited
speaker will critisize Israel, most of the time his
invitation would be canceled.
Any professor who dare say or publish any thing
critisizing Israel will find himself subjected to
orchestrated campaign of harrassment, threats and
sometimes the derailment of his career.
A recent example is the case of professor Norman Finkelstein who published a book critisizing Israel
which resulted in denying his application for tenure at DePaul university in Chicago although he is distinguished professor with a long track record of excellent academic work that was recogniszed by his
peers.

May 1 - 3, 2009

An Open Letter to Barack Obama from a Nobel Peace Prize Laureate

Stand Up to Israeli Apartheid

By MAIREAD MAQUIRE

“DEAR PRESIDENT OBAMA,

I found your book ‘Dreams from my Father’ a moving and inspiring story of your own struggle to find your identity and purpose in life. You found it for sure, and today carry the hopes and dreams of so many people in our world. We pray for you and your family. We wish you all good health and happiness. You carry so much responsibility. We hope you will change the policies of USA (both domestic and Foreign) to people centred policies, based on the values and ethics which you try to live out in your life.

Reading your book I was inspired by your involvement (during Sophomore year at University) in the South African anti-apartheid Divestment campaign. Your own words - ‘I found myself drawn into a larger role – contacting representatives of the African National Congress to speak on campus, drafting strategy, I noticed that people had begun to listen to my opinions.’, encouraged me to share with you the following opinions, and experiences, of many of the people I met during my most recent visit to Palestine/Israel.

Earlier this month, I attended the 4th Bil’in International Conference on Popular Nonviolent Resistance held in Bil’in, near Ramallah, in the Israeli occupied Terrority of Palestine. Here, all the Palestinian people are asking of you, President Obama, is to listen to their opinions and use your position to help end the racist, apartheid policies of Israel, which continue to cause so much pain and suffering to them. Each week, for the past four years, the villagers (after prayers in the Mosque) walk to the Wall which has annexed much of their land, and cuts them off from their farms and olive groves, and their ability to make a living for their families. As you know, under International Law the Apartheid wall is illegal but Israel continues to ignore International Laws (and some 62 UN resolutions) and annex more land from the Palestinians, all the while demolishing Palestinian homes, building illegal settlements both in East Jerusalem, and the West Bank, and laying Siege to the Gaza strip (l and a half million people), thus breaking the Geneva Conventions and committing crimes against humanity.

To visit Palestine is to walk with a people whose lives are being made unbearable by Israeli Policies of ethnic cleansing. Each year when I visit I ask myself ‘how can the Palestinians bear so much suffering and still have hope?’ The Philosopher Karl Jung says ‘Go into your grief for there your soul will grow’. Being privileged to walk alongside the Palestinian people, one sees so much soul. Many are materially poor having been made refugees and often pauperised by Israeli occupation and siege, but their dignity, courage, and persistent resistance to injustice is awesome to witness. It reminds me of the magnificence of the human spirit and, I feel humbled to be welcomed as a friend of the people of Bilin, Ramallah, Gaza, and Palestine. I wish that you President Obama would go and walk with them as you walked in spirit with the people of South Africa in their great and inspirational anti-apartheid movement.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/maguire05012009.html

Sepharad, May 2 at 3:54 pm

“I also think America has to figure out, define and stick to its own best interests vis a vis Iran. We certainly did not get into WWII for the European Jews, but for our ally Britain as well as Europe, and for control of the southern Pacific. Israel is an ally, also a country that provides a huge number of medical, technical, cultural, environmental and scholarly contributions to the world far out of proportion to its size. Despite all the anti-Zionist propaganda on this site and elsewhere, there is much to admire in that country. Some of the things Israel does are not good, and people who care about her should (and do) call for an accounting and work for change. Given the amount of free-floating anti-Semitism, particularly in Europe though this country has its share of anti-Semites too, some of them on this site, it’s more important than ever for Israel to survive as a majority-Jewish nation (and to also recognize that the Palestinians also have an equivalent rightful claim on part of Old Palestine).”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel is a hardcore racist state…there is NO question about it. Its so called democracy is purely for “Jews Only”; Moslems & Christians are 3rd & 4th class citizens.

Israel’s Apartheid / Nazi policies in the Occupied Territories and against a mostly unarmed Palestinian population is just a routine brutal process for its murderers ...IDF.

In the meantime, our taxpayers money $3-5 billion dollars per year just continues to flow to Israel so that Sepharad can continue to boast about its medical, technical ...contributions & Oh…anti-semitism too.

This really discourages me to see how the people of this country are allowing a terrorist nation, izrael, to run our country, take away our rights and bleed our taxmoney from more important uses. I think if england was doing this the people would be outraged but this goddamn country of izrael has the people so ‘snake fasinated’ that it really is beyond discouraging maybe even beyond scary when a paranoid bunch of leaders in a far off land control a country that is afraid to stand up to such manipulation.