Which country in the ME has undeclared stockpiles of nuclear weapons?

Which country in the ME has undeclared stockpiles of chemical & biological weapons?

Which country in the ME has no outside inspections of its “WMD” stockpiles & warehouses?

The answers, details and much more are in this BBC documentary video that we can’t see on CNN, FOX & the rest of them that are controlled by AIPAC.

Find out what happened to that Israeli military transport plane that crashed in the Netherlands & what was on board and why the news media remained silent on the incident/topic.

Cick on link below to watch video: 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Israel’s Secret Weapon (Secret Nuclear Weapons)

“Mordechai Vanunu, Israel’s nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel’s nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. ...all » Mordechai Vanunu, Israel’s nuclear whistleblower, was jailed in 1986 for publishing photographs of Israel’s nuclear bomb factory at Dimona. Olenka Frenkiel reveals the extent of Israel’s nuclear gagging. The Sunday Times Revelations hit the press in October 1986. Vanunu has spent 17 years in jail, a11 of which were in a minute solitary confinement cell - and he has just had his appeal for parole denied. He will stay in jail until 2004, when his term is expected to end. Sunday Times journalist Peter Hounam heard rumours in 1986 that an Israeli whistleblower was offering proof of what the world had long suspected. His revelations confirmed that Israel was building advanced nuclear weapons. After the Sunday Times published this scoop, Vanunu was kidnapped in London by Mossad agents and illegally smuggled back to Israel. He was tried in secret and convicted of treason and spying.”

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-234685330662058240&q=israel+secret+weapon&total=107&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

FRIDAY   1020 AM/CST   DFW

My old gypsy fortune teller said USA’s farflung advertures, its connection with nuclear Israel plus growing racial strife and fundamental insolvency will result in the collapse of this house of cards.

Printing huge amounts of currency and only temporarily stave off the inevitable collapse.

I only go by what Sister Ilonya tells me, but she is usually right. She warned me that my well was going dry and, sure enough, there is not a drop of water in it now. Dry as a bone. I guess we will have to load up the old truck and move away from here.

Night Gaunt—My party (Meretz) does not want to expand to the huge borders of old Israel. We want the pre-‘67 borders, share East Jerusalem, no right of return to Israel proper because the deluge would leave Jews a minority in a Moslem country. That’s fine in Turkey, and even in Iran, but nowhere else.
What I read in the Israeli newspapers and other sites is that Israel is gearing up and testing its missile DEFENSE systems. There are militarists running the country now who would much rather gear up to attack Iran but there is also a lot of influential opposition to anything like that. Obama and Mitchell must make it clear to Netanyahu and Lieberman that they will not back up any Israeli attack on Iran and will not pull Israel’s chestnuts out of the fire should Israel do it on their own. My fear is that they will not express this with the firmness and clarity required, so there is no misunderstanding on the PM’s part, no “Oh, he doesn’t really MEAN it.” I wish Freeman was there; he would be crystal clear about Iran and the settlements and the second state. Anyway, have to go back and participate in Israel-based opposition.

ONCE COMPULSION TO STUDY
BECOMES an OBSESSION
INTELLIGENCE AND WISDOM.
FOLLOWS

IN PERIL THE WICKED WAIT
TELL ME THEY SAY
“WHAT IS THE WAY
HOW CAN I KNOW
UNLESS SOME ONE TELL ME”

“I NEED SOMEONE
HURRY TO MY AID
SEE I AM LAZY “

“I SEE THAT ONE SITTING
OVER THERE
DOESN’T HE HAVE A CARE
LOOK AT THE SIZE OF THAT BOOK
WHAT COULD ALL THOSE
WORDS MEAN???”

THE GODLY SAGE THEN SAID
“ONCE ONE BECOMES
POSSESSED
WITH STUDY
A LIFE CAN BECOME STURDY
ONES MIND CAN THEN RESIST
ALL THINGS THAT ARE OUT OF LINE
WITH GODS WORDS, WILL, WAYS AND WORKS

THEN CLEARLY ONE CAN SEE AND KNOW
THAT STUDY IS THE KEY
TO OPEN ALL THE DOORS
THAT BEFORE
HAVE BEEN LOCKED

by Dwight Baker copyright 2006
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“In pretrial maneuvering, the prosecution suffered several setbacks in rulings from the trial judge, T. S. Ellis III, that were upheld by a federal appeals court in Richmond, Va. Judge Ellis rejected several government efforts to conceal classified information if the case went to trial. Moreover, he ruled that the government could prevail only if it met a high standard; he said prosecutors would have to demonstrate that Mr. Rosen and Mr. Weissman knew that their distribution of the information would harm United States national security.”

I do wonder why this case was brought in the first place. Maybe Rumsfeld had been pissed off that the Israeli secret service was caught. Or someone on his staff who did not like a foreign country spying and manipulating our own gov’t people. I would like to learn more about this judge T.S. Ellis III.

By Mech’elsamberg, May 4 at 3:13 pm #

Oh, please.  Spare me the BS.  Zionist this, Zionist that.  In the old days it was Jew this and Jew that.

Mech’elsamberg not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. You should know that. So the race bating of any criticism of the Jewish state no matter what crimes it does as racism falls flat. Why must the Palestinians be the only ones to recognize Israel and stop fighting them when Israel doesn’t have to do the same for Palestine?

”...to use quotes from Jews who are opposed to Israel’s existence ranging from Noam Chomsky…”—Sheparad

When has Dr. Chomsky said that Israel shouldn’t exist? He certainly knows the difference between official rules to exist and taking it upon them selves to exist. The problem is that Israel won’t allow the Palestinians to exist as a country. They are against it and so is the USA for 40 years. Which he and others have reported on for those many years.

“I think Obama will do whatever is best for the U.S. I hope Obama will persuade the Euros and Arabs that however they choose to contain Iran, it won’t also sell Israel down the river to the Muslim fanatics.”—Sheparad

Too bad Obama may sell Israel down the river to the Zionist fanatics in charge of the country now. Kissing Israeli ass for Messianic Christianity conversion of the Jews is ugly but not surprising. Each works to affect the other their way. Sworn militarists who want to expand Israel’s boarders to the Levant and the Euphrates river! A disturbing trend is that the youth are becoming ardent holy warriors too for the Zionist cause. [Why Israel’s boarders aren’t final.] That and get all the Jews back to Israel and push out or kill any who are not of them. [Sound familiar?]

Right now the only threat from Iran is from the USA and Israel who constantly work psy ops to promote the idea that theocratic Iran is a danger even as they follow the law. Unlike Israel who is a criminal concerning nuclear arms. [Probably gotten from India and USA i.e. tech, materials and expertise.]

5/6/2009 9:50 AM

WHO IS IN CONTROL OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?

VIDEO MUST SEE http://alhambracomputerservices.com/thematrixbilderberg.aspx

Last night for a bit I turned on CSPAN and got to watch a master of deceit play our Congressmen as a seasoned fiddler plays his violin.  He stated what he wanted to say and what he did not want to say with such authority and vigor the Congressman just sat there and quivered.

He was there representing the Obama Administration for a call for another 9 billion to be poured into Pakistan and Afghanistan for some kind of aid?  He said we must have it.  That sounded a bit like Hank Paulson.  So the hard questions he would not answer said he would do that in private.  As some of the lesser in power Congressman spoke he would interrupt them to make his glaring remarks.  As if they were stupid and he was not. 

So I just got sick again remember when the BUSH BUNCH OF THUGS did the same thing.  Then I thought back when Obama was saying a CHANGE is a coming. But now that looks like just idle words that have no deeds to prove his worth.

Now who was raising that money from our communed held treasury none other than Richard C. Holbrooke (Richard Moos); Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group , so there Obama goes again getting a chicken hawk crying for more war.  War makes big bucks going in no matter which way the BIG BOYS invest.  And the spoils of war always increase their stake wherever the war takes place. So when checking out Richard Holbrooke I ran across some other names too.

Dianne Feinstein, Senator; Trilateral Commission
* Madelaine Albright (Miriam Korbel); Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations
* Richard C. Holbrooke (Richard Moos); Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group
* Henry Kissinger; Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group
* Alan Greenspan; Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations
* Stanley Fischer, Chief Economist IMF, Chairman Bank of Israel; Bilderberg Group, Council on Foreign Relations
* Paul Wolfowitz, Neocon; Bilderberg Group
* Richarad Perle, Neocon; Bilderberg Group
* Nadine Strossen, Executive Director, ACLU; Council on Foreign Relations
* Mortimer Zuckerman, Chairman U.S. News and World Report; Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group
* Stephen Friedman, Co-Chairman Goldman Sachs & Co; Trilateral Commission
* Robert E. Rubin, Director Citigroup Inc; Council on Foreign Relations
* Peter R. Kann, CEO of Wall Street Journal; Trilateral Commission
* Katharine Graham, President Newsweek: Council on Foreign Relations
* Richard N. Haass; President, Council on Foreign Relations
* Martin S. Feldstein, President, National Bureau of Economic Research, Inc; Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group
So adding too my anxiety now more surface that are against the very Constitution that we say is the RULE of LAW that all should obey.

I wanted to bring these names to all attention for it seems to me that some on this list I have not seen before.  Now if these names and positions are not right let me know. It was late when doing the research.

So what are we to do –Just set around and let them play us like a fiddle?
Better yet——let us all get involved in taking our Country back while we still have a Constitution that empowers us to do so.

We The Peoples Advocates WTPA are providing the only HOPE in saving our great nation.  So JOIN IN and ENLIST to serve with your VOICES being heard and your VOTES being counted and moved along to our lobby group in Washington DC to power push the peoples needs, wants and wishes in our cities, states and Federal Governments for all Americans to have the rights to life in all ways in equity adjudicated by the Bar of Justice.
Info contact Dwight Baker .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

WED   634 am/cst DFW

ref: dwightbaker

Outstanding broadside sent to the builderberger aristocrats. hope the catch a serval five pounders in their tookus.I must paulse you should research these many pieces of the matrix. I am old now but that doesnt matter. I think i AM PREPARED TO GO ALL THE WAY. sOME OF US MUST MAKE THE ULTIAMTE SACRIFICE. RESTING, PREPARAING TO SLEEP, TOOK MED, INCLUDING ANOTHER ABIAN. IT MAKES EVERTHING LOOK BETTER BUT MESSES JUP M,Y FINGERS. lATER BAKERKER

5/6/2009 7:33:02 AM

WHO IS IN CONTROL OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION?

Last night for a bit I turned on CSPAN and got to watch a master of deceit play our Congressmen as a seasoned fiddler plays his violin.  He stated what he wanted to say and what he did not want to say with such authority and vigor the Congressman just sat there and quivered.

He was there representing the Obama Administration for a call for another 9 billion to be poured into Pakistan and Afghanistan for some kind of aid?  He said we must have it.  That sounded a bit like Hank Paulson.  So the hard questions he would not answer said he would do that in private.  As some of the lesser in power Congressman spoke he would interrupt them to make his glaring remarks.  As if they were stupid and he was not. 

So I just got sick again remember when the BUSH BUNCH OF THUGS did the same thing.  Then I thought back when Obama was saying a CHANGE is a coming. But now that looks like just idle words that have no deeds to prove his worth.

Now who was raising that money from our communed held treasury none other than Richard C. Holbrooke (Richard Moos); Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group , so there Obama goes again getting a chicken hawk crying for more war.  War makes big bucks going in no matter which way the BIG BOYS invest.  And the spoils of war always increase their stake wherever the war takes place. So when checking out Richard Holbrooke I ran across some other names too.

Dianne Feinstein, Senator; Trilateral Commission
* Madelaine Albright (Miriam Korbel); Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations
* Richard C. Holbrooke (Richard Moos); Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group
* Henry Kissinger; Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group
* Alan Greenspan; Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations
* Stanley Fischer, Chief Economist IMF, Chairman Bank of Israel; Bilderberg Group, Council on Foreign Relations
* Paul Wolfowitz, Neocon; Bilderberg Group
* Richarad Perle, Neocon; Bilderberg Group
* Nadine Strossen, Executive Director, ACLU; Council on Foreign Relations
* Mortimer Zuckerman, Chairman U.S. News and World Report; Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg Group
* Stephen Friedman, Co-Chairman Goldman Sachs & Co; Trilateral Commission
* Robert E. Rubin, Director Citigroup Inc; Council on Foreign Relations
* Peter R. Kann, CEO of Wall Street Journal; Trilateral Commission
* Katharine Graham, President Newsweek: Council on Foreign Relations
* Richard N. Haass; President, Council on Foreign Relations
* Martin S. Feldstein, President, National Bureau of Economic Research, Inc; Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg Group
So adding too my anxiety now more surface that are against the very Constitution that we say is the RULE of LAW that all should obey.

I wanted to bring these names to all attention for it seems to me that some on this list I have not seen before.  Now if these names and positions are not right let me know. It was late when doing the research.

So what are we to do set around and let them play us like a fiddle?
Better yet let us all get involved in taking our Country back while we still have a Constitution that empowers us to do so.

We The Peoples Advocates WTPA are providing the only HOPE in saving our great nation.  So JOIN IN and ENLIST to serve with your VOICES being heard and your VOTES being counted and moved along to our lobby group in Washington DC to power push the peoples needs, wants and wishes in our cities, states and Federal Governments for all Americans to have the rights to life in all ways in equity adjudicated by the Bar of Justice.
Info contact Dwight Baker .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

TUESDAY     1048 PM/CST   DFW

REF:  dwightbaker

Right, and probably the first thing you would find at the bars are the clowns mentioned. These dudes are ready for prime time, dressed as they are let them sing out in harmony, “Live from New York City, it’s Saturday Night Live!”

Then they could do a couple of skits like “The Gang Who Couldn’t Shoot Straight.” All they have to do is act naturally. I have one uncle and a cousin who look just like these clowns. I feel like I know these “spies.” They look like they would jam a copier machine or drop the “secrects” on the way back to spy headquarters. Amazing who gets all the good jobs. Wow!

FOGGYJONES

I agree each time I have come to comment oh crap look at those two clowns Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman,I think they share the same middle name UGLY.

They could have been rightfully charged for being too HARD TO LOOK AT to be in court.

But to get that done we would need some creative prosecutors and I doubt if we have any of them.  Seems to me most of the times it is less work to let all off. 

Besides I doubt if they get over time like some welders and pipe fitters I know do.  I have heard that the Bars in DC fill up real quick for the ones that have worked up a sweat.  But who might that be?  I don’t know maybe some body could find out.

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TUESDAY   829 PM/CST   DFW

What’s in a face? Well, who can say, but Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman, top of page, are worth taking a pause and examining. My, my, my, aren’t they special? Obviously, a pair of keen-witted, devoted, and loyal patriots. Now that the charges have been dropped, maybe Harman and Pelosi can pull some strings in the White House and get them nominated for kind of awards? Maybe they can pull some strings and get Pollard freed on a techicality and give him several million to retire in Jerusalem and write novels and such. Beautiful dreams and wonderful news.
I guess a picture is worth more than a million words, much more.

Sepharad,

While we are both reading the same article, your interpretation has nothing to do with the words on the page.

About the charter, he absolutely refers to it specifically:

“But he urged outsiders to ignore the Hamas charter, which calls for the obliteration of Israel through jihad and cites as fact the infamous anti-Semitic forgery”

Then the article says:

“Mr. Meshal did not offer to revoke the charter, but said it was 20 years old, adding, “We are shaped by our experiences.”

Is these not specific references?  Why are you being so belligerent?

Mehsal, like Netenyahu, is a political animal and as such, has an interest in maintaining ambiguity until he achieves his aims.

>> I guess we also just have to disagree on Jewish claims to the land, much of which from the mid-19th century on Jews bought from the Ottomans and from Palestinian Arab landholders.

This is demonstrably false on multiple fronts. 

At the time of Israel’s creation, Jews only owned 7% of the land in the region of Israel as per the 1948 map.  The state of Israel owned about 40% and the rest belonged to Arab landlords. This crated a problem for the Zionists who wanted to create a Jewish state because they knew that most of the landlords would not sell their land to Israel.  Israel used the land of imminent domain to seize that land along with the ethnic cleansing of 1948.  Israel drove out the Arabs, then declared that absentee landlords had forfeited their right to the land.

Furthermore, Ottoman archives show that many land deeds were forged.  Until recently, the Turkish government had kept these archives under wraps for political reasons, but after Israel’s assault on the Gaza, lawyers representing Palestinian families were given access to Ottoman land registry archives in Ankara for the first time, providing what they say is proof that title deeds produced by the settlers are forgeries.

Also, whatever legitimate purchases were made by the late 19th century , the fact remains that Arabs outnumbered Jews by more than 10:1.
I am not disputing that the right of return to pre-67 borders would swamp the Jews and other non-Arabs in Israel, and while this is a problem of Israel’s own doing, I doubt that the Arabs would want to return in any case.  There are other options available, such as compensation that could be paid to these families.  Former Israeli foreign minister, Shlomo Ben Ami, has suggested such an option.

Israel continues too find new reasons to destroy Arab homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, including homed that sate back to before Israel’s creation so the cases of Arabs of East Jerusalem not selling his house or land seems rather moot.

I agree that a 2nd state is the best option, but under present circumstances, a state would be impossible to create.  They settlers have doomed this outcome and I honestly doubt that any Israeli government would have the will or stomach to deal with these extremists and fanatics when it came to removing them.
While I support Israel’s right to exist, there is no evidence for the “need” (growing or otherwise) for a small Jewish-majority state. Most of the world’s Jews do not live in Israel and chose not to, yourself included, which suggests to me that the myth of a Jewish safe haven is simply that, a myth.
Al Quaeda didn’t suddenly remember the usefulness of Israeli-Palestinian dispute.  The first thing Bin Laden cited when he became a militant was the Shaba and Shatilla massacre.

In any case, your attempt to portray the situation as one of equal suffering and oppression on both sides is rather weak.  The Israeli Jews are not oppressed by any means and their suffering is virtually non existent when compared to the reality faces by the Palestinians. I do agree there is a great deal of fear in Israel, some of it justified, much of it imaginary but governments in the US and Israel have garnered a great deal of mileage by maintaining fear in the population.

foggyjones, May 5 at 9:17 pm

But nomatter how much anyone knows, there is one damn big fly in this soup! Ironically, it is money.

I got that hope the lad did.

DB

TUESDAY   807 PM/CST DFW

ref: SEPHARDIC

I may not be aware that Paul Newman starred in “Exodus” and romantically gave millons of people about the Arab-Zionist situation in 1948. More objective accounts are readily available. The story of Jews in Spain and the switch to Catholicism etc. etc.

None of this history is really a secret, my friend. But nomatter how much anyone knows, there is one damn big fly in this soup! Ironically, it is money. The billions flowing into Tel Aviv from NYC and DC. Oh right, it is all about protecting access to Saudi oil and elsewhere. The military industrial complex and Israel just enrages the ordinary citizen in the USA. Even most Jews consider it is all wrong and wasteful, downright evil. Two state, five state, one state Palestine, only a precious few give a damn. But everybody cares about economic meltdowns and crooks surrounding Obama- the Boys From Goldman Sachs. Enough is enough, my friend.

Sepharad, May 5 at 8:49 pm

QUICK QUESTIONS:

#1 Why is it in some forums the ones stating their case want to have some kind of reference for what their mouth wants to say but seldom is that the same as what their heart wants to speak?

#2 If that were so in this forum should the others and I think less of your words as having your true identity to shine through?

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Shingo, I guess it’s the blind men and the elephant all over again. You and I both read the same article with the Hamas leader in the paper and believe he said different things about the charter because he didn’t actually refer to it specifically. We see what we want to see, extract what we want to extract(or, in my case, don’t WANT to extract—would much prefer he would have said that of course they recognize Israel’s right to exist, just give us Judea and Samaria and no more fighting).

In contrast, in another NYT article, that long interview with a Taliban logistician, you KNOW where you stand with the Taliban. They say what they mean, do what they do, and make distinctions between their interests (Americans out of Afghanistan) and Al Quaeda’s which, according to this Taliban logistician, has global aspirations. Not that I agree with the Taliban’s program or imposition of lifestyle on the unwilling, but they are very clear as to their intent. I don’t feel like they’re gaming us any way but militarily.

I guess we also just have to disagree on Jewish claims to the land, much of which from the mid-19th century on Jews bought from the Ottomans and from Palestinian Arab landholders. The Romans didn’t kill or drive out all of us. Shepherds and scholars were scarcer on the grounds and kept their heads down in the hills and in Jerusalem. When fanatic Moslems destroyed much of Cordoba and drove out Islamic as well as Jewish scholars, including the Maimonides family, some of them joined their relatives and others in Jerusalem, still a center of learning. (Maimonides himself went to Morocco as did I’bn Rushd.) When my great-great-grandfather got there in 1828, there were Jewish farmers and shepherds about. Also Arabs. The original partition would have made for a very very vulnerable country, but the Jews were willing to accept that. When the Palestinian Arabs didn’t, hostilities began and have not really ceased since, with Jordan taking Judea and Samaria away from the Palestinians and Egypt, Gaza.

Were there a right of return to pre-67 Israel, demographics would swamp the Jews and other non-Arabs in Israel. There must be a Jewish-majority state, however small, and a secure one. I can’t see a way from this position to yours, as much as I’d like to. Palestinians hung a man for selling his West Bank land to a Jew, Arabs of East Jerusalem won’t sell any house or land to Christians or Jews, and in Israel there are new policies making it hard for Israeli Arabs to buy land they don’t now own. These developments are relatively new but make me more firmly committed to the second state. Too much has happened to make a single state feasible from either point of view, and if there is reconciliation it’s going to take a lot of time, there can be no reconciliation without two separate and secure states.

It’s hard for me to understand how you could not see the growing need for a small Jewish-majority state, based on the many comments on this thread and elsewhere. (Just as Al Quaeda suddenly remembered the usefulness of Israeli-Palestinian disupte, anti-Semites of the first order have also hitched their vile doctrine to the same dispute. I would thank God if I believed in one that the EU has finally started to study the spread and nature of this; the U.S. will doubtless take longer.)  I understand the Palestinians’ feelings of being oppressed, and so do the Israelis, most of whom are also oppressed by the constant spectre of violence and the need to be on guard at all times. There’s a lot of coulda-woulda-shoulda on both sides. Unfortunately the situation now is that oppressed people, frightened people, are on both sides, neither of whom are very likely to be well-disposed to the other, is exactly where it stands in Israel/Palestine today. There has to be a divorce, a separation, and it will take a very long time to reconcile to the point of becoming friendly neighbors.

TUESDAY   611 PM/CST DFW

Truedigger has it right. All the other rhetoric and nit-picking reflects the effectiveness of indoctrination and mainstream “news” media.

REFERENCE: truedigger3, May 5 at 3:29 pm

Ed Harges wrote:
“Israel is a sort of protection racket targeting Jews all over the world. If you are not sure you want Israel’s “protection”, Israel will arrange for you to need it.”

That sums it up, nicely.

Sepharad,

Part 1 of 2

Sharon’s motive for giving up Gaza was economic and pragmatic.  It certaily wasn’t land for peace because in the end, those 8000 settlers were mpoved from their illegal settlemnts in Gaza to other illegal settlemeents in the West Bank. 

It made no sense to invest so much money in and security services in defending a population of 8000 people in an otherwise low value chunk of land.

Remember, that Saron’s adviser, Dov Weisglass, told the world that Sharon’s polocies were to suspend the peace process in formaldehyde and pulling out of Gaza was key to that.

Hamas controls Gaza now yes, having been democrastically elected to do so. They were of course, orginally invited into Gaza by Israel, but in any case, the NYT’s just published an interview yesteray where the leader of Hamas calls for a 2 state solutiuon and commands Hamas followers to disregard the 23 year old charter. 

So yes, land for peace will could work, if Israel is indeed willing to pay that price. It is interesting that we also also seeing an apparently about face from Israel, with Yalon saying Isrsael would support a 2 state solution.  Perhaps they realized that it was bad PR to be seen to oppose to a 2 state solution while Hamas suported it.

Of course, even the land for peace meme is misleading, since it suggests Israel is givign something away that it owns, wand the West Bank has never belonged to Israel.

The Egyptian and Jordanian governments are just as afraid of their populations in general as they are the Islamic Brotherhood, a body which is actually largely peaceful, though fundamentalist.  Tyrants are always supisuious and paranoid of their poulations.

The Lebanese government is in the same camp, because the Lebaese constitution is an anachronism whereby the government representatives are selected based on religious denomination, not popular vote.  If the Lebanese elections were democratic, Hezbollah would likely have win.

Your demissal of what Hamas’ leader had to say in that interview is pretty blinkered and biased.  After all, Hamas have demonstarted that they are modernising and changing direction.  Hamas did stick to the ceasefire with Israel last year until Israel broke it in November, and that was even after Israel reneged on a key provision - that they would lift the blockade.

Sepharad,

Part 2 of 2

The 10-year calm is a powerful concession, considering that if calm does indeed last 10 years and the Palestianins are left alone to control their own destiny (ie. enjoy self determination) there would be no desire or support for the resumption of hoistilities.

In that interview, Meeshal explicitly calls for the charter to be ignored.  As he said to Sy Hersh in a previous interviews, he recgonizes there is a state called Israel, but as the leader of the reistance movement, he cannot “recognize” Israel per se, until the Palestinains have their own state.  He also points out that “recognizing Israel” got Arafat nowhere, and correctly poits out that the demand is a just a stonewalling tactic anyway.

Needless to say, no Israeli governmewnt leader has ever offerd to recognize a Palestinian state.

The levels of anti-Israel anti-Semitism you observe is directly related to Israel’s policies against the Palestinians.  Israel’s popularity around the world would escalate repidly if they were to agree to a 2 state settlement and grant the Palestinians self determination.  There is no point pretending that the anti-Israeli and anti-Zionist sentiments have nothing to do with events on the ground.

>> Culturally, traditional religious Arabs accept a more elastic version of the virtue of truth than Westerners and other non-Arab Moslems.

There is no basis in this statement.  After all, over the last few years, beginnign with Benny Morris’ work, the revisionism and myths of Israel are gradually comming to light.  It has become par for the course that anything the Israeli government says is the inverse of reality.

What does the motto of the Mossad Say?  By way of deception….?

No one is expecting you to trust Hamas leaders, any more than the rest of us trust Israel’s leaders.  In the end, the truth is coes down to their actions and their policies.

Sepharad, May 5 at 5:19 pm

The warmongers have always funded both sides—-in the civil war—-WW I—-WWII—-don’t you get that the spoils of war always goes to the benefactors from the BIG BOSS warlord.

So when you hear the word WAR think of MONEY.

Go study.

DB

Shingo, You’re right that Jews in Israel will be overwhelmed demographically if they don’t give the Palestinians Judea and Samaria (West Bank)—that was Sharon’s motive for giving up Gaza. And now the Muslim Brotherhood offshoot Hamas controls it, so obviously “land for peace” doesn’t work. This is giving Israelis pause re another pullout (the nibbling away I refer to), mainly because they are just as afraid of Islamist extremists as the Egyptian and Jordanian governments are (and as the Lebanese government used to be before Hezbollah got as close to taking that country over as they now are). In fact it also is beginning to give ME pause, though previously I’ve thought the West Bank should be the refugee Palestinians as well as a larger piece of Palestine on the East Bank, as Jordan was a part of Palestine and 70-80% of Jordanians are Palestinian.

The other factor that is making me wonder whether maybe the hard-liners are not right is the most recent interview with the Hamas leader in Damascus, which sleazes around with make-nice rhetoric offering Hamas as “part of the solution”, hoping that the more gullible among the West will buy it. They are apparently OK with a 10-year “calm” (no rockets) if Israel gives back the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the right of return to all refugees of ‘48 (which, as they tend to have huge families, would overwhelm the Jewish population and other non-Arabs in Israel). And even if all that were done, he says, they would not change their charter belief that denies Israel the right to exist among other noxious material.

Re poll info —I haven’t seen any polls re shifting Israeli attitudes though some must exist somewhere. I’m basing my comments on what I read in the various Israeli papers, and conversation—with family and friends in and out of Israel as well as my longtime doctors who also have families in Israel and Europe. I’m not joining AIPAC or switching parties yet, as I think Israel has to crack down hard on unacceptable behavior in IDF (a non-IDF run investigation of cluster bombs used in Gaza)and among settlers. But as I become much more conscious of the level of anti-Israel anti-Zionism anti-Semitism in the air everywhere, not just on this site, it seems to me that Israel’s survival possibilities are dimming just when it may be most needed, and it’s time to get off the fence. Culturally, traditional religious Arabs accept a more elastic version of the virtue of truth than Westerners and other non-Arab Moslems. I know that comment is going to draw outraged yowls, but I didn’t invent the concept. Ib’n Khaldun (Muquaddimah), T.E. Lawrence said as much in isolated comments here and there, and Raphael Pati (“The Arab Mind”—he also wrote “The Jewish Mind”) discuss this. I could say the same about horse traders, which doesn’t mean that all horse traders lie any more than it doesn’t mean that all Arabs lie (those in both categories whom I know personally do not lie to me as far as I know). I guess what I really mean and will say unequivocally is that I trust Hamas leaders about as far as I could throw them, which is not very far at all.

Ed Harges wrote:
“Israel is a sort of protection racket targeting Jews all over the world. If you are not sure you want Israel’s “protection”, Israel will arrange for you to need it.”
_____________________________________________________

Ed, You hit the nail right on the head. I agree with
you 100%.

TUESDAY   138 PM/CST DFW

REFERENCE: Folktruther, May 5 at 2:19 pm

I have traced my Jewish roots back to 1000 AD, so far. Like millions of others, open acknowledgement was rarely practiced but the deep values and practices ran deep. This long tradition of stealth and deception was necessary long before there was a Holocaust. But different times call for new solutions. At this time it seems it is a good time to open the shades and let in the light.

It appears to me that the Jews in America are not a minority, albeit most are crypto Jews and most do not even realize it. It is not a matter of theology, genetics, appearance or love for Israel. The land will always be there. But one segment of the people have been on a rampage ever since WW2. A precious few enraged survivors of the Holocaust have leveraged this event to accomplish immense wealth and power. It is clearly a never-ending cause for - hate and revenge.

Zionism? To me, any thoughtful, fair and truthful person should now acknowledge what has happened and put an end to this thriving tumor. It has disfigured and will, ultimately, kill its host. It is only a matter of time, left unchecked.

Surely these wealthy and influential Zionists are blind to reality. Little different from the emporer and his new clothes. Even a small child can see what the emporer cannot. The proud, determined, sanctimonius emporer struts and smiles to the crowds and doesn’t have a clue.

But the day of reckoning is at hand. The truth must out. The old story of this emporer was puposely left unresolved. But the bold leaders of these current militant Zionist lords have positioned themselves to easily make life miserable for far too many. Worst of all, in a very real sense, they are bogus Jews. It is more of a gang more akin to the mafia than any religiouis group. Plain and simple.

I comment on CARE 2 the number reported is over 9 million members.  And guess what they are all rooting for us to take the lead and take back our Rich and Abundant America.  They have not been inane to the political games played and being played today by the last bastion of hope for the dying in the gutters they made for us the Bilderbergs.

We some times seem to forget that all mankind are born with a conscience.  They may not speak out but that is not to say that they do not know the truth.  But what we in America today portray for the rest of the World to see is HOPE.  In WWII all greeted my dad and some other men that had served to set the world free from tyranny when they came ashore, not as some one to be feared but to be lifted up as men who took their life in their hands to set the captives free.  Now those brave men that fought and some died set a standard for us VERY HIGH and we cannot let them down.

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A good video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llc977kNO7c

Soldiers refuse to serve in Gaza - Israel Social TV

re: Folktruther’s mention of the boycott: there are signs that the world boycott campaign against Israel is starting to bite:

http://azvsas.blogspot.com/2009/03/boycott-of-israel-is-starting-to-bite.html

Zionism is rapidly getting increasingly barbaric and murderous historically. There is a real and increasing danger that the Israeli power structure, with the support of American zionists, will engage in increasing mass murder. American zionists like Mech are deflecting sympathy for the Palestians with his contempt for ‘boo hoo, Israel’ ideology, the same sort of thing Inherit indulged in with his ‘poor,poor Palestinains.’  This dehumanization of the Palestinians is supported by Sepharad who tries to pretend that Hezbollah and Hamas are threatening Israel with nuclear weapons.  This type of absurdity increases with oppression.

Israeli youth are beginning to increase their resistence in going into the Israeli military as the world’s revulsion of the Isreali death strategy becomes incraasingly manifest. An recent article in Haaretz deplores this anti-draft trend.  this is inevitable as the young increasingly realize that Zionist strategy is not only immoral, it is self-defeating.  It is bound to lose historically.

It is supported by the US and Obama, and the most salient thing about it is that this geostrategy can’t win historically.  there is no way, over historical time, that Israel can continue to survive by sitting on beyonets, in an increasinglly isolated fortress.

It is a death strategy, as military strategist van Clealand and others almost frankly admit. His last book THE CULTURE OF WAR could better be titled THE JOY OF DEATH.  He argues that killing is fun and the dying in the act of killing is noble.  Israel is a country with nuclear weapons and van Clealand champions the Samson Option as its final death act.

This death ideology has been immported into the US and has largely hijacked US foreign and domestic policy. The Zionist defense of ethnic cleansing is becoming increasingly corrupt as the horrors of its policy become more widely known.  But it is poisoning American mainstream truth with the gibbering of Christian Zionists like Hagee, and Jewish Zionists like Dershowitz and Horriwitz.  Horrowitz   is carrying on a McCarthyite campaign against the unversities of any professor that criticizes Israel, the criticism itself being considered anti-semitic, even when the professor is Jewish.

As the isolating of Israel by boycott’s etc increase, its death ideology is becoming more intense.  Jewish Zionists are starting to gibber like the right wing Christian Zionists.  The only solution I see is for the American people to get Zionists out of the US power structure, or to restrict their power so a to neutralize them.  But this will require mobilizing the American people against Jewish and Christian Zionism, to change American policy.

By KDelphi, May 5 at 12:39 pm

NOW you get it. I love my KING but some that say they do are frauds, henchmen, cruel, devilish set on taking us all back to EGYPT to build a few more pyramids——- but not me.

You can get to the core of who is and who is not somebody you want to have over for lunch by listening to what they say then what they do.  If the two things don’t match up RUN.

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) contact me via e-mail to get the business plan for We The Peoples Advocates. about 7000 words

I think that you’re right, Ed. My Jewish relatives certainly dont think that religious Zionism is doing them any favors.

By Ed Harges, May 5 at 11:50 am

Is that kinda like a Mafia deal done up on an international scale????

DB
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This only ensures that the American backlash against Israel’s supporters will be all the more violent when it comes.

Maybe Israel hopes to induce pogroms in the United States, thus legitimizing Israel as a necessary refuge?

Israel is a sort of protection racket targeting Jews all over the world. If you are not sure you want Israel’s “protection”, Israel will arrange for you to need it.

NOW JUST A STEP BACK INTO HISTORY TO ASSESS 1-2

Gods Chosen people the JEWS are now on both sides of the fence.  Both are JEWS by birth and maybe some even stay up with the rituals and some of the cultures of Judaism.  But who practices the Laws of Moses today?  The aristocracy   of the Temple Worship is gone, the elite Sadducees if still around are underground.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadducees

The Pharisees may still exist to a degree. But certainly not using that name to identify what they do and who they are.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharisees#From_political_party_to_sect:_Sadducees.2C_Essenes.2C_and_Pharisees_in_the_Roman_period

http://www.scribd.com/doc/9633774/World-events-History-Timeline500-000-BC2000-AD-

The growth of the Jewish people began to grow and expand after settling in the land of Israel—- King David taxed the commerce and trade routes that enriched his kingdom. Solomon built the First Temple in Jerusalem the aristocracy of the group Sadducees took over the priesthood of running the Temple.  That included many enrichments for them at a time when the majority of Jewish folks were still peasants.

When I was in Israel I walked through the homes of some of the Sadducees who lived just west of the Temple Mount.  They were lavish beyond measure having baths spas or ritual emersion baths in many rooms that was decorated with rich frescos and tile. Most of the most were more than 3,000 sq. ft.

NOW JUST A STEP BACK 2-2

The Sadducees were closely entwined with the Roman Leaders that occupied Israel and bribery then was the order of the day as is today.  The Sadducees were guilty of not following the Laws of Moses but simply using those Laws to benefit them and their kin ONLY.  Thus it has become clear to me today that the old order of Sadducees has been resurrected by the Bilderbergs to take over once again and put all back into servitude to them. And the fact that David Koch Jewish wants to use select Laws Moses to rule the world for his benefit now makes sense.  And in the foundation of the Bilderbergs many Jewish names appear.  Some of the Bankers in Germany that were Jewish at the time of the Holocaust looked the other way as their kin were carted of to the gas chambers.  WHY they made a lavish fortune supporting Hitler agendas.

Now on the other side of Judaism during the time of our Lord were the Pharisees they believed in an afterlife and were the leaders in the synagogues that were sprinkled all around.  The Rabbis were the functional head of the synagogue that was a town hall meeting place, learning and place for study and prayer and the Rabbis were baby sitters for the women that worked.  Thus public education began for the Jews in the synagogue.  The Pharisees Rabbis wore the clothing prescribed by the Moses laws, while the Sadducees wore silks and fine lien to prove in adornment they were more than the common man.

Jesus rebuked the Sadducees for their profanity of the Temple worship for the Sadducees had turned that event of worship and cleansing for their Jewish folk from all over the inhabited world into a time to make profit.  The Sadducees did not believe in an after life when judgment by God of their transgressions would come.  The Sadducees could not kill Jesus because of the Law of Moses forbade.  But they again using their elites appealed to the Roman government to do so and it was done.  The Sadducees saw their con coming to and end and they took all the right steps to eliminate the voice that held them in derision and disdain for their open robbery of the people.

As most of us know today some of the most vocal good and morally sound voices that have been raised up against tyranny are those from Jewish ancestors, thus a good question is who are those from the mindset of the Pharisees?  I can name long list can you? 

And are those that are from Jewish ancestors that want to rape the world and bring about slavery to all of mankind from the mindset of the Sadducees?

NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT CAMP DO YOU BELONG IN?

THE VOICES FOR WE THE PEOPLES ADVOCATES—-WTPA Dwight Baker Chairman for Grass Roots Actions needed to form our own lobby to power push or wants, needs, wishes for all acts in equity by actions of Justice. PO BOX 7065 Eagle Pass, TX 78853 Tel/fax 1-830-773-1077 E-mail .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

GO FIGURE WHO IS AND WHO IS NOT LIKE THE BILDERBERGS?  INTRO

More about the scope in the width and depth from the elites in their opulent need for greed D and their destruction of the Rights of Life for mankind under the guise of a GOD BASED RELEGION—- but they are of the anti-Christ persuasion Read the words of Jesus then you decide. LUKE 22—- vs. 24——30 the Kings of the Gentiles are and have been the world leaders the benefactors are the barons of banking, trade commerce and the makers of the machines of war etc.

A faction in acts of insurrection today exist in America that is funded by David Koch he is the prime mover in dominion theologian. In essence what they want is much like the Article below. They want two sets of folks the powerful and rich and then all the others.  The dominion theologians want to take the others us followers and re-in-statute the laws of MOSES that have been abridged by them.  Now I don’t see any thing other than greed in those that espouse such beliefs.

Thus are the many names of those tangents groups all from the core [Bilderbergs] neocon illuminati free masons—dominion theology- skull and bones—-and the list goes on and on. Thus MY TAKE they are all of the mindset of the anti-Christ persuasion that has been here for about 2000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Bilderberg_attendees
http://www.bilderberg.org/
http://www.bilderberg.org/bilder.htm
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=bilderberg&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=_g4ASpzFL53YygWHypyRCA&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=5&ct=title#
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9270
http://www.slate.com/id/2193220/
http://www.crystalinks.com/bilderberg.html
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Bilderbergers-Set-To-Meet-by-Dennis-Kaiser-090501-366.html
SWINE FLU Bilderberg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBeKB7aKzOs

Dwight Baker
.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

foggyjones, May 4 at 3:29 am

GO FIGURE WHO IS 1-2

The Global Resurgence of Religion: Part 2c The Clash of Cultures at the End of History
http://www.blogisdead.net/2008/07/global-resurgence-of-religion-part-2c.html

To put this idea of the post-political in the terms of Alexandre Kojève’s (1969) interpretation of Hegel, post-politics and the triumph of the private sphere is a result of the end of history. At the end of history politics disappears because everyone is satisfied, and there is no more striving for change, and thus no more action that is the basis of politics. But obviously we are not yet at this state as not everyone is satisfied because we still lack what Kojève (1969) calls the universal and homogenous state (UHS) that is non-expandable and non-transformable; in other words a global political system that is free from faction and strife. So we are in a period of “non-time” where history and historical action has come to an end but has not reached the final state of satisfaction that is only possible in the UHS. Darby (1982) compares this period of non-time we are in to the period between the death and resurrection of Jesus. This is a period of flux where the old conception of history as progress no longer makes sense, but we have not yet made it to the final state (the UHS), even though in principle we know how to bring it about. Again using Darby’s (2001) language, this is a period of spiritual crisis, the old way of understanding the world (through political economic identities like communism and capitalism) have faded away, history is no longer the march of progress, and people need to find new ways of making sense of the world. This is opening up space for religion to once again provide meaning and explanation to people suffering this spiritual crisis.

Kojève (1969) provides two archetypes of what humanity will be like at the end of history: Reanimalized Man, and Japanized Man. Reanimalized man is thoroughly post-political, without politics and action; man looses what makes him man, and is thus reanimalized. Reanimalized Man seeks recognition as an equal, and thus once universal mutual recognition is achieved in the UHS, everyone is satisfied and there is no more war or bloody revolutions as Kojève says. Thus Reanimalized Man is the inhabitant of civilization, which is defined as being inclusive with fuzzy boundaries, where people from different backgrounds can live together in peace, since everyone is recognized as an equal. This is to be contrasted with Japanized Man, who seeks recognition not as an equal like Reanimalized Man, but as a superior. Kojève (1969) gives examples from Japanese culture such as tea ceremonies, Noh theatre, and the art of bouquets of flowers that are examples of cultural snobbery. Thus the Japanized Man is the inhabitant of culture, which is defined as being exclusive with hard boundaries. Cultures are inward looking, believe in their own superiority (thus the snobbery), and thus wish to be recognized by others as superior, and are not willing to settle for being recognized as equal. Thus viewing Huntington’s (1996) clash of civilizations through the lens of Kojève, we see that what Huntington (despite his own objections to the idea) is describing is the problem of Japanized Man that appears at the end of history. In other words, we end up with a clash of cultures based on religion, which are bound for conflict because they all believe they are superior to the others and wish to be recognized as such.

foggyjones, May 4 at 3:29 am

GO FIGURE WHO IS 2-2

Some have suggested, such as Lee Harris (2004) in his book Civilization and its Enemies, that the paradigm of post-Cold War global politics is not one of a clash of cultures, but culture against civilization. This is certainly true in one respect, but not in the way Harris thinks it is. The problem of today is that there really is no organized civilization in practice, just the persistent idea of it, and as Kojève predicted, the West (including Russia) has become Japanized. Thus the globalization of American Empire precisely fits the pattern of Japanized Man, because the process is a top down assertion of the superiority of American economics, political control, and culture on the world. The average American has also embraced the snobbishness Kojève talks about, which is indicative in Harris (2004) when he talks about the United States as the only source of legitimate power that can save the world from ruthless gangs of thugs. This is based on the common conception that Americans are essentially superior to the rest of the world, that America alone is free and democratic, that America alone can save the world as Harris implies. This is pure snobbery. Interestingly enough Kojève also talks about the Japanized Man being willing to commit “a perfectly ‘gratuitous’ suicide…which has nothing to do with the risk of life in a fight waged for the sake of ‘historical’ values that have social or political content.” (1969, p. 162) This is precisely what the US is doing with its occupation of Iraq, it is willing to commit economic suicide (economics has been the basis of American Empire) to carry on the hopeless and extremely expensive occupation of Iraq, which is completely free of social or political content at this point. The main arguments for staying in Iraq are now not related to any political or economic motives, most of which have been either accomplished or rendered impossible to achieve, it is now about honor. Bush talks about not cutting and running, and accuses the opposition of being cowardly for not wanting to continue to fight. Again there is no political content here, what the US hopes to achieve with an infinite occupation is never articulated, and a strictly realist analyst would view the continued occupation as nothing but a drain on American resources. Thus the West has been Japanzied as Kojève predicted, with American Empire representing not the spread of civilization, but its opposite, the imposition of a single culture.

If religious and ethnic based wars “bubble up from below” as Huntington (1996) points out, we have a dual structure of conflict. We still have conflict flowing down from above, in the form of American Empire attempting to maintain its cultural dominance as well as these bottom level religious conflicts. However the global resurgence of religion combined with the decline of the American Empire, will mean that these religious conflicts bubbling up from below will become much more prominent and important, which is why it is important to try and explain the causes of the resurgence of religion within the context of this post-political era we live in.

WAKE UP FOLKS THESE IDIOTS ARE FOR REAL

THE VOICES FOR WE THE PEOPLES ADVOCATES—-WTPA Dwight Baker Chairman for Grass Roots Actions needed to form our own lobby to power push or wants, needs, wishes for all acts in equity by actions of Justice.
PO BOX 7065 Eagle Pass, TX 78853 Tel/fax 1-830-773-1077 E-mail .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Robert—re Shulamit Aloni’s story—Good post. She’s right.

and??

(is she fired yet?)

MONDAY 904 PM/CST DFW

Quick review
of Jane Harman’s
revealing phone call

(CQ) Rep. Jane Harman , a California Democrat long involved in intelligence issues, was overheard on a 2005 National Security Agency wiretap telling a suspected Israeli agent that she would lobby the Justice Department to reduce espionage-related charges against two former officials of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).

In return, the Israeli agent pledged to help lobby for Harman to become chairwoman of the House Intelligence Committee.

Two former senior national security officials, one who has read a transcript of the wiretap and a second who was briefed on its contents, said Harman agreed during the conversation to “waddle into” the AIPAC case “if you think it’ll make a difference.” Their accounts were confirmed by a third source with knowledge of the wiretapped conversation and subsequent events.

AIPAC is the most powerful pro-Israel organization in Washington.

In exchange, the sources reported, the suspected Israeli agent pledged to lobby House Speaker Nancy Pelosi , D-Calif., who was then the House minority leader, to appoint Harman chairwoman of the Intelligence Committee if Democrats won control of the House in the 2006 elections.

Harman hung up the phone after saying, “This conversation doesn’t exist,” according to the former officials.

“Keeping that fiddler on the roof and playing his tune is a remarkable balancing act.”

Knock him off the roof and tell Biden what his job is and to whom he owes his loyalties, as Vice President of the United States of America.

Tell him Whose tune to dance to, and Who is playing his fiddle - the American People,

and not AIPAC!!

Sadly, Israel is no Longer Democratic

By Shulamit Aloni

“May 03, 2009 “Haaretz”—Maj. Gen. Amos Yadlin and philosopher Asa Kasher, two respected men around here, published an article entitled: “A just war of a democratic state,” (Haaretz, April 24, Hebrew).

A remark about the first part: There are wars that are necessary for self-defense or to fight injustice and evil. But the expression “just” is problematic when speaking of war itself - which involves killing and destruction and leaves women, children and old people homeless, and sometimes even kills them.

Our sages have said: “Don’t be overly righteous.” And there is absolutely no question that dropping cluster bombs in an area populated by civilians, as we did in the Second Lebanon War, does not testify to great righteousness. The same thing can be said of using phosphorus bombs against a civilian population.
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Apparently, according to the Yadlin and Kasher definition of justice, in order to eliminate terrorists it is just to destroy, kill, expel and starve a civilian population that has no connection to the acts of terror and no responsibility for them. Perhaps had they adopted a more decent and less arrogant approach they would have tried to explain the reasons for the fury and intensity that brought about the shocking killing and destruction, and even apologized for the fact that these exceeded any reasonable necessity.

But after all, we are always right; moreover, these things were done by “the most moral army in the world,” sent by the “democratic” Jewish state - and here is the meeting point of the two concepts in the title of Yadlin and Kasher’s article.

As for the army’s morality, it would have been better had they remained silent and thereby been considered wise. This is because the statistics on the destruction and harm to civilians in the Gaza Strip are familiar to everyone, and not divorced from the oh-so-moral behavior of our army in the occupied territories. In the context of this behavior, for example, the army operates with great efficiency against farmers who demonstrate against the theft of their lands, even when the demonstrations are not violent.

The long-term evidence of abuse by soldiers against civilians at the checkpoints - including repeated instances of expectant mothers who are forced to give birth in the middle of the road, surrounded by armed soldiers who laugh wickedly - is no secret either. Day after day, year after year, the most moral army in the world helps to steal lands, uproot trees, steal water, close roads - in the service of the righteous “Jewish and democratic” state and with its support. It’s heartbreaking, but the State of Israel is no longer democratic. We are living in an ethnocracy under “Jewish and democratic” rule.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest of article. Folktruther, a better title would be “Jewish (who suport zionism) & democratic” rule:

http://informationclearinghouse.info/article22538.htm

MONDAY   755 PM/BST DFW

REF: RICHARD EAST

No, it is not surprising. People like Pollard has made such activities so commonplace why not just hand the keys to the kingdom over to AIPAC or have we already done that? Probably so.

And the comments about Joe “Boom Boom” Biden defines the connection between the sheep in wolves’s clothing and the national treasury. These so-called Zionists are a curious amalgamation of bottomless greed, jealousy, blind ambition, militancy and a relentless desire to “succeed.” Keeping that fiddler on the roof and playing his tune is a remarkable balancing act.

Sepharad

I do this mostly on yahoo groups.  Its easier to navigate and takes less time. My email address is my name without the ” ’ ” at gmail dot com.

The dropping of the AIPAC spy case is really not that surprising.

After all, Vice-president Joe “I am a Zionist” Biden is headlining the AIPAC’s annual conference.

...then there’s Obama’s speech to AIPAC (speaks volumes):

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1032259.html

MONDAY   733 PM/CST DFW

Please note, Rep. Jame Harman (D-Calif) is publically accused of conspiring with Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif) in using their notable political influence to get charges dropped against AIPAC agents, Steve Rosen and Keith Weisman. The central issue is about whether or not this incident represents another case of Israeli spies and corrupt politicians. It seems some agree, others do not. But that begs the question of whether or not Israel should be allowed to anything they like because of the Holocaust and, before that, the sacking of Jerusalem by the Roman Empire. To me, the essential question is whether or not it is time to stop flogging that old excuse for allowing Zionist to do anything, no matter what. The question is whether these Zionist amount to little more than extortionists like the mob. Self-serving gangsters or not?

Personally, I think they are more akin to “Godfather” than anybody else. It even makes many people consider that maybe the greatest gangster movie, ever, was about Zionists like Myron Landsky of Tel Aviv, than Lucky Luciano of Sicily. In only a couple of generations, both have many strong representation in congress and huge investment banks. Now, everybody has gone legit, or have they?No more ionnp

indeed mech’elsamberg,

No one really gives a crap whether you are a Zionist, A Christian or a Martian, so long as you cut the BS, the lies and the conflation and stop pretending that Arabs aren’t really dying.

As you can see,  Sepharad and I but heads ideologically but we get on just fine.  Then again, at least Sepharad admits that Israel needs to return the West Bank and recognize a Palestinians state.  I get the feeling that you are on the same page as Bibbi and Lieberman when it comes to that.

mech’elsamberg—There are a couple other posters who aren’t kneejerk “The Israelis Did It/Thought It/Said It/Wanted It/Killed It” but they do get tired of repeating the same thing to the same old TDers. Once in awhile it’s worth it. Usually like banging your head against a wall. But don’t let the sarcasm and ignorance and pure poison hate shut you up. (Myself, I have learned to pay attention to some of what the sarcastic posters have to say because they sometimes have a point or good references. It’s the ignorant and/or poisonous ones who are a black hole as far as any exchange of information goes.)

I’ll try to contact you on gmail—am not computer-literate unfortunately but sure I can find out how to do it if obvious paths fail.

Sepharad,

The only threat to Israel’s survival, and by that, I mean Israel’s continuation as a Jewish only state,  is the fact that Jews will become a religious minority unless they give back the West Bank.

By Sunni countries and their cooperation with Israel, U.S. and Euros, let’s also be clear that we are talking about the leaders of these countries specifically and that the cooperation would be out of self preservation and self interest, not any so called Sunni-Shi’ia schism.  These leaders continue to rule and remain in power because of the support they receive from the West, after all.

it was you who made reference to maps and history and the one I linked to pretty much tells the story. Irrespective of whoever you believe “governed” Palestine, the land was predominantly occupied and owned by Arabs.  Even when Israel was created, Jews only owned 7% of the land.  50% belonged to Arab landlords.

>> Many Israelis are concluding that most Moslems have no intention of permitting a Jewish-majority state to exist

I would appreciate a poll that documents this conclusion, especially given that the League of 22 Arab Nations have not only offered to recognize Israel as per the 1967 borders, but to normalize relations with Israel.

Israel have rejected this offer and Lieberman has described the offer as dangerous.

What examples are there of the Arabs nibbling away at it piece by piece, especially given that Isrel settelments are expanding?  What examples are there that Israel is becoming sufficiently vulnerable to overrun? Like I pointed out, the only scenario of Israel being threatened is Israeli expansionism, not Arab nibbling.

As for the Iranian Mullahs, Ahmadinejad or Khatami, one can pretty much judge what they are thinking by their actions. Iran is not occupying any other state.  It has not invaded anyone.  Contrary to the familiar canard, they are not calling for the destruction of Israel or anyone else.

>> I even have nearly everything Chomsky wrote. Don’t you agree he would be OK with Israel surviving as long as everyone in the region was OK with it and there was no fighting involved?

Sure, but as I recall, it was you that suggested Chomsky was opposed to Israel’s existence, not me.

Thats hysterical.  Comparing an unprovoked suicide/homicide attack with self defense.

Folk & Foggy—Yes, the gypsies should find a different way of living, but theft isn’t a capital offense even in Saudi Arabia, where they just chop off a hand. I think. Could be wrong.

Re the Madoffs of the world, I think they’ve destroyed peoples’ lives and should get life in prison, a regular prison not a countryclub one, and deserve far worse than those thieving gypsies.

Shingo, Agree with Ha’aretz piece, noting the “perhaps” nature of it, and I hope things work out this way. Again, I don’t think Israel or other larger entities should attack Iran. And I wish the guiding hand was Tzipi’s and not Bibi’s. But it’s not, and “perhaps” is “perhaps”—so Israel’s survival remains iffy. Has been for a long time, but moreso now given the Israeli and Iranian leadership. I think that Israel’s performance with the Swiss was idiotic, as that would have been a reasonable approach from all partys’ standpoints.

Sunni countries would cooperate with Israel, U.S. and Euros (even the devil himself) to contain Iran because of the Sunni-Shi’ia schism, not because they care about their population’s well-being.

There are a lot of maps, including Greek and Roman ones. The region, including much more than the British Mandate, WAS Israel till Romans came and renamed it “Palestine”. But until 1948, indigenous people have not governed that area until Israel was reborn. There is no reason that the Arabs of that area cannot also govern a “Palestine”—the famous second state.

Many Israelis are concluding that most Moslems have no intention of permitting a Jewish-majority state to exist, and are just nibbling away at it piece by piece until it’s small and vulnerable enough to overrun. I suspect that is true as well, but the Israelis WILL fight. Because it’s an open society, of course young people read everything published in the left/liberal press about “occupiers” of Judea and Samaria, and some soldiers have refused to serve in the territories. But if their back is to a wall again, they WILL fight. There is a fair number of American-Israeli dual citizens in the North Bay. Some of them have been returning to Israel as a result of the last couple of years’ developments, and so have some of their children as they graduate to high school, to serve in the IDF for two years before college. I’m not a dual citizen but would go back myself if my husband were also Jewish. (He says he would be happy living there but for the size of the place; would run out of territory to explore in a month, and couldn’t just cross a border as you can in the States and find more open spaces.) No matter how old you are, you can always take some job that would free up a younger reservist. Meanwhile there are other things I can do from here.   

I have Iranian friends who cannot live there and are here not out of choice but exigency, and THEY don’t know what will happen. There are huge numbers of moderate, civilized, Western-culture-oriented Iranians but the mullahs still have the upper hand. The question is what the mullahs now deem most important, and no one, not even Ahmadinejad or Khatami, knows with any degree of certainty what they might be thinking.

Even the Jerusalem Report comes out with pro-Palestinian pieces; I misspoke: pro-Palestinian propaganda, not analysis, is what I meant. At least a third of the stuff in my MidEast libary is by Arabs and Persians and sympathizers of same as well as writers and historians of other ethnic groups. “Comparative” is important. I even have nearly everything Chomsky wrote. Don’t you agree he would be OK with Israel surviving as long as everyone in the region was OK with it and there was no fighting involved?

I particularly like this line:

>> They also know that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child. but could care less.

The same could be said of the Palestinians, but that’s when Israel complains that the Palestinians hate Israel more than they love their children.

Speaking of maps and history Sepharad,

Can you please comment on this?

http://www.kadaitcha.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/palestineshrinks.jpg

mech’elsamberg,

>> Sepharad, its nice seeing a post here without the boo hoo, Israel is so bad mentality.

Just out of curiosity.  When a suicide bomb goes off in Tel Aviv, do you dismiss the grief that ensues as boo hoo,  Hamas is so bad mentality?

Sepharad, its nice seeing a post here without the boo hoo, Israel is so bad mentality. And I agree’  Not all the anti-Zionists are anti-Semitic.  Many of them are just misguided and like sheep, they follow the “cause du jour” without uttering anything except the usual anti-Israel garbage.  A friend sent me the Yashiko Sagamori questions.  No need for a website or links.  I thought it was brilliant.  I doubt if they allow us to post our email addresses but you can contact me off list at gmail.  mechelsamberg

MONDAY 601 PM/CST DFW

REF: SepharaDIC Shill

You really must go to your husband that mentioned in an earlier post.

Ask him about the long history of Jews in Italy. Either you are remarkably unschooled or just a loud shill. If you really do not know, do some searches on the web and inform yourself about your screen name, including the name “Perez,” Cryto Jews and extensive role of Italian Jew aristocracy. Watch the online movie, “Garden of the Franci Contini.” But what is in a name? That is easily changed or encripted. Get real, when you assume nobody knows you shame us all. Read up on Pelosi. Untold millions of Jews made the decision to keep their heads and pretend to be Catholics. Get real.

Sepharad,

Re Iran, here is an article that will put hings in perspective for you.

On Iran, Barack Obama is no Chamberlain http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1082568.html

“Perhaps the solution is to try something still untried: dialogue, lifting the sanctions and authorizing American businessmen to do in Iran what their Russian, Chinese, German and French colleagues have been doing for years: To see Iran as a partner in conflicts where it has influence, like in Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, as well as with Hamas and Hezbollah. Not by coercion, but by recognizing that Iran has accumulated political power in the region over the years. Perhaps, had George W. Bush adopted such a policy, the Iranian threat would look different. Had Bill Clinton taken another step beyond permission to export nuts and carpets to the United States, maybe Tehran would now have an American nuclear reactor for producing electricity.

Barack Obama is no Chamberlain. He does not carry an umbrella - he carries a big stick, even though he might speak softly to Iran. Of course, we can always continue enjoying the panic. But Obama’s approach is better. “

You’ll have to forgive me for using pro Palestinians sources.

beerdoc—In most recent post forgot to add your name to Shingo’s in opening sentence. Yes, Israel has always been a great inconvenience to the U.S. because of oil and now America’s fear of nuclear weapons in Iran.

Re AIPAC Rosen/Weissman: see my Mar 2 comments 12:46 and 3:14. And please tell Waldozi that Pelosi is Italian, not Jewish.

Re America giving money to Israel: This is a reasonable question (in a but-what-have-you-done-for-me-lately sort of way). Some obvious payback: agricultural innovation (drip irrigation and many more), environmental progress, and medical and biotech research breakthroughs, not to mention musicians and literature and scholarship. Also, the presence of a democratic, modernized country on the Eastern Mediterranean that is capable of being an example for and cooperating with developing Mideastern and Central Asian countries should be worth protecting even if you don’t think Jews need a country in which they are a majority. Israeli Arabs have a far different life—economically, educationally speaking—than mainstream Arabs in other countries less developed. Saddam was modernizing the Sunni portion of Iraq but not the Shi’ia, and hardly democratically; Iran is modernized in its weaponry and, in the urban areas, its society, but the rural portions are mostly poor and not educated beyond the madrassahs (like Pakistan), which breeds crime and every sort of religious extremism, especially since that religion emphasizes the fact that there is no real life on earth, only after you die and go to paradise. Joe Hill was right when he moved people to join and support labor unions with the song/slogan “There’s pie in the sky when you die? That’s a lie.”
Many Arabs want Israel to disappear because it’s very close by, apt to make their own citizens question whether their Islamic pie in the sky IS all there is. What to do if their own citizens see that even Moslems can have good lives, educate their children. Why do you think Turkey alone is the only Moslem ally Israel has? Because Turkey has always been the most open Moslem country, the one that 1) sent its diplomats et al to the Western countries in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries on to study Western customs and devices to see if there wasn’t something to benefit to their own people and 2) under Kemal Ataturk developed a secular society that became so much a part of Turkish culture that even under an Islamic party’s President, Turkey’s government remains based on rationalism and completely separate from Islamic law.
(Most Kurds are also well-disposed to Israel, but not having their own country their support is limited.) India has also been a friend to Jews in general and Israel, as well as China though they don’t let their friendship inferfere with doing business. 

Re Israel’s current government: Tzipi Livni DID get more votes than Netanyahu but couldn’t put together a government because she refused to include the religious parties. Quite rightly, in my opinion, but now Israel is led by two men whose policies I can’t support. I don’t think either Israel or the U.S. or anyone else should attack Iran. The Sunni states, the Euros and the U.S. to contain Iran, but first want Israel to get out of the West Bank. I think they should too, but given that Hezbollah and Hamas are Iranian proxies, it is very risky for Israel to back out of territory before Iran is settled. I doubt Iran would nuke Israel, but Hezbollah and Hamas are of the pie in the sky school. Hence Israel’s insistence re shutting tunnels to Gaza. Israel was OK not responding to being hit by Iraq’s scuds during the Gulf War, but that didn’t pose the existential threat that Hezbollah and Hamas does, supplied by Iran

I think Obama will do whatever is best for the U.S. I hope he will persuade the Euros and Arabs that however they choose to contain Iran, it won’t also sell Israel down the river to the Muslim fanatics.

gawd my spelling!! Sorry…I had better rest my hands..just didtn want you PhDs to think I hadnt noticed..lol teasing

Sepharad,

You are far to inteligent to be using such spurious and dishonest arguments.

Why do you pretend that those with serious migivings abtou Israel’s actions are only interested demonizing Israel? it is false to suggest that Noam Chomsky is oposed to the exietence of Israel.  It is also higly spurious to suggest that Israel is an ancestral homeland to those who have no connection to Israel other than theh afct that they happen to be of Jewish denoimination.  Not all Catholics are entitled to return to the Vatican now are they?

And please, do us a favor and drop the patently dissigneusous slur that anyone expects Israel to lay down and commit suicide.  That argument is used to justify everything from legitmate security to settelment expansion.

Hezbollah and Hamas are not Iranian proxies.  Neither was created by Iran and both exist in pite of Iran.  You pknoew perfectly well that Hezbollah woudl not exist were it not for Isral’s 18 year occcupation of Laebanon and that Hamas would not exist had Israel not supported and fianced it to begin with.

The reason Israel has never used nuclear weapons on Hamas or Hezbollah is becasue it would be both highly unecessary (F-16s, Apache helicopters, 500lb bombs, white phosphorous and cluster bombs usualyl suffice) and becasue neither represents any threat to ISrael’s existence.

The Sunni governments you refer too are by and large, all tyrancies and dictatorshiops, which by definition are typicalyl paranoid about the population at large and defending their stranglehold oon power.

Iran of course it no threat to anyone. They haven’t atatcked on invaded any other state for over 300 years.  In the case fo Iran, tehre is nothing to contain.  The nucler power program is for energy production - the worst case one could make against iran is that one day, they might decide to make nukes.

The real threat to peace is Israel, who are makign almost daily threats abot attacking Iran.

The present Israeli government are extremists who for the first time, reject a 2 state solution. they are merely trumpetting the so called threat to stopnewall and delay peace negotiations as they have doen for decades.

Maps and history point to the irreutable reality that ISrael is not the same country that was recognozed in 1948.  History shows that Israel continuies to occupy land that does not belong to it and behave in contravention of intentaional law and nearly 100 UNSC resolutions.

Whether Israel would fight to the last man, woman and child is also debatable, uless you are talking about Arab men, women and children.  One of the reasons given for the humilitating defate of 2006 was the notion that IDF solidiers were not willing to ptu their lives on the line for their country.  Theyh say that when you fight a weak eneymy, you yourself become weak, and this could be said of Israel, who have no stomach for death tools when it comes to wars.

MONDAY 517 PM/CST DFW

REF: Sepharad, May 4 at 5:36 pm

Homeland? Motherland? Fatherland? Which eon of civilization or recorded history are we talking about? Is it based on your religion you chose this region and tribe (s), which arose and fell in a relatively short time. If you are more inclined to scientific, secular thinking, you must look to Africa as your motherland or fatherland, to be fair. Is everybody who doubts your interpretation of history is correct, does that really make them radical idealists? Maybe you should take this one to husband and get a ruling. You know just enough to be dangerous.

MONDAY   504 PM/CST DFW

Folktruther said a lot in very few words. There are so many joyful, “smart” people like that in prison and more running free, and they are not all gypsies.

Just because somebody like that wears an expensive suit and sits at the head of the table in the board room of big NYC investment bank, makes them little different from these gypsies that met in Rome. Such people are guided by a deep and abiding belief in such values. It is not about religion, intelligence or personal appearance, it is about values and they really do admire greed and success no matter what it takes. The scoff and attack those who insist that it is wrong. They demean and vilify those whom they consider schmucks or suckers. They will never admit it but, deep down, it is all about fleecing the sheeple, putting on over on the sucker. Same as a pickpocket in Rome, eh?

There were just about 5 min of a talk by Jewish Youth Conf on c-span 3. Then it was gone…they are showing an old rerun of the Immigration Debate, and, Vitter is talking about how paying taxes wil make CEOS lay people off instead of cuting their own huge salaries a little…all the uS “reps” there seem to be of the born again christian variety. But, we didnt get to see much of it..

so relevant.

foggyjones—That is certainly an assignment!.I have watched what little they are covering. I watched bits of videos at theAIPAC ite. The Jewish Peace Conference says that coverage is “uneven”.

It soundsl like neo-cons blustering to me, but, my pc is too slow to watch much video and CSPAN on tv just hasnt covered much…

anyone seen anything beyond Gingrich and Pence?

Sepharad, I am sorry to hear that the Roma are being killed again.  they were systamtically killed by the Nazies. Governments tend to have a hard time with them because of their traditionl means of livelihood.

When we were in Rome a guartet of male and female gypsies distracted us while one tried to pick my pocket.  And stealing occurred routinely on the crowded buses as well.  It’s irritating but under liberal capitalism it is difficult to do anything constructive about it.  A joyful people, but need to attain other means of living.

mech’elsamberg, you have to realize that except for Shingo and KDelphi (and possibly Sodium, who is highly knowledgeable re Islamic cultures and never publishes anything he does not think is true, though he’s an old-line Arabist at heart, like the British colonialists and much of the U.S. State Department throughout the 20th century), you’re arguing with a lot of ideologists who only are interested demonizing Israel and like to use quotes from Jews who are opposed to Israel’s existence ranging from Noam Chomsky to those rabbis who think that Jews shouldn’t return to Israel until the Messiah himself arrives (in a cloud? a burning bush? who knows?) to conduct them back home personally. I.e., G-d forbid that any Jew be so presumptuous to return to their own ancestral homeland on their own volition without divine leadership. Some TD posters adapt their positions out of political correctness, some out of pure anti-Semitism (which is getting out of hand here as it is in Europe, the difference being that the EU recognizes it as hiding behind anti-Zionism and has established, through their Parliament, a separate commission to deal with it). The only American public figure I can recall as coming right out and saying that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism was Martin Luther King, Jr. I don’t think that it’s anti-Semitic to criticize a specific Israeli policy, obviously, as Israelis and supporters of Israel frequently argue and criticize government policy. But on this thread, mostly you encounter criticism of any Israeli policy that does not involve laying down and dying or proactively committing suicide.

My own position isn’t far from Benny Morris’ two-state solution which includes pre-‘67 borders for Israel and an additional hunk of land of the East Bank (all of Jordan was once part of British Palestine; the French took other portions of it to expand their Syrian and Lebanon holdings under Sykes-Picot). HOWEVER, this would only work if Iranian proxies (Hezbollah and Hamas) are not handed nuclear weapons to use on Israel. Of course Israel has never used nuclear weapons on Hamas or Hezbollah, but both of those groups are made up of people who believe the real life is not here but in the paradisiacal afterlife. The Sunni governments are also extremely concerned about this problem so there is a chance for regional cooperation among Israel and the other Arab governments to join the Euros and US in containing Iran. Problem is the Sunnis, Euros and Obama want Israel back in the pre-‘67 borders BEFORE they contain Iran and think this would help them achieve that goal, but the present Israeli government disagrees. It would be an extraordinarly risky thing for Israel to do, and there would have to be some real guarantees of protection. In writing. I think Tzipi Livni would have agreed given guarantees, so I hope Netanyahu will consider it. But working this out is going to be difficult.

I’m a secular Zionist with family in Israel and an American citizen, committed to Israel’s continuing existence and America’s best interests. I think that both are entwined, but it’s a very tricky line to walk. Most people on TD are not sufficiently interested to think it all out and fall back on simplistic, comfortable perspectives offered by pro-Palestinian propaganda. Maps and history are not in the cards here: exotica is more appealing to the average TDer. You’ll never change their inclinations; like the old Russian Jews who’d disown young men and women who wanted to fight back, most of these people are more comfortable with Ann Frank and dead Jews than they are with Jews who fight back. They also know that Israel will fight to the last man, woman and child. but could care less.

Where in the world did you find the Japanese questions? How did they come to be created? (Good examples of questions never asked by TDers.)

mech’elsamberg,

>>  And you should be the one ashamed of yourself for turning on your own people and supporting terrorists like Hamas.

Seeing as Israel create dHamas to begin with, shouldn’t you also be ashamed?

>> Oh, please.  Spare me the BS.  Zionist this, Zionist that.  In the old days it was Jew this and Jew that.

Sorry, you cwon’t be spared.  We happen to be talking about Zionist this, Zionist that.

>>  answer the questions i sent to the gaza tunnel article with my own reply “A Japanese View of the Palestinians”.

The Jasense view of Palestinians has nothign to do with the Gaza tunnel.  And since when did Japan become relevant to the issue fo Palestine?

mech’elsamberg,

part 1 of 2

>> Is the world just plain stupid? 

No they have just woken up tot ehg racist, facsit and terrorist nature of Israel.

>> If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,” I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :

Very obvious attemtp to derail the argument.  The notion fo a state is a Wester invention.  There were no “contries” in the Arab Peninsula and Middle Wast until the British Empire created arbitrary borders to delineate them.  What has always existed is the concept of land and land ownership.

>> 1. When was it founded and by whom?

What does it matter?

>> 2.  What were its borders?

Where are Israel’s borders?

>> 3.  What was its capital?

What is Israel’s Capital;?  tel Avib or Jersualem?

>> 4.  What were its major cities?

Ask Moshe Dayan.  Most of them don’t exist anymore becasue Israel destroyed them and built Israel town and cities in their place.  When Israel was created, Arabs were title holders to 50% of the Land and Jews 7%.  The only way to create a Jewish state was to enthncially cleanse the Arabs off the land.

>> 5.  What constituted the basis of its economy?

Agriculture and merchants.
http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> 6.  What was its form of government?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> 7.  Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> 8.  Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

Until the British created their arbitrary borders, there were no countries in the Middle East.  The UN Resolution and Balfour Delcarration called for the land to be shared between the Arabs and the Jews. The Jews wanted a Jewish state, which mean driving out the Arabs.

9.  What was the language of the country of Palestine ?

There were a number of languaged.  Arabic was one of them.

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?

mech’elsamberg,

Part 2 of 2

When?  Before or After the Ottoman Empire?

>> 11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date. 

Irrelevant.  What was the Jordanian or Eg\yptian currency at the time?

>> 12. And, finally, since there is no such country today,  what caused its demise and when did it occur?

It started in 1948 with thge ethnic cleasing of 700-800 thousand Arab from the land and has continnued to this day.

>> You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation.  Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?

They look pretty proud to me or does this look like a land wihout a people?

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/2009/01/a-land-without-a-people.html

>> And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over—or thrown out of—the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

Rubbish.  The Palestinians were fofered an independent state buthe British in retprun for driving out the Ottoman Empire.

>> I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day “Palestinians” to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won’t work here.

Why?  becasue it is inconvenient?  It’s a historical fact.  On th other hand, the Jewish link to the land has beenlong debunked.

>> Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel ; they still cherish it today.

Lie.  22 Arab countries have offerded a peace tretry which recpognizes Israel as per the 1967 broider and to normalize relations with Isrsel,  Israel has rejected the offer.

>> How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the “West Bank” and Gaza , respectively?

Rubbsih.  Those 22 Arabs states include Jordan and Egypt.

>> The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them.

Not a fact a lie.  The Arabs have been there for thousand fo years.  Arab towns like Jericho date back before the creation fo Judaism.

>> The so-called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel , and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation

That’s just a racist lie usex to defend the indefensible.

>> In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East . Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it.

Hillarius.  That’s like arguinf the West should pay reprerations for the devastation inflicted on Germany.

MONDAY   408 PM/CST DFW

To anybody with the spare and interest to watch the AIPAC Annual Policy Conference on CSPAN3, please provide a brief update on the general drift and the most prominent speakers, so far.

thebeerdr—it is just a bundle of contradictions , isnt it?

To all those who make apologies for the United States government giving tax payers money to Israel, without question. Perhaps you can explain the double speak found at this link posted below:

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-05-04-voa47.cfm

mech—I’m not typing in that link—could be full of viruses…or do you mean this:
“Statement by the Press Secretary/Director-General for Press and Public Relations, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, on the Recent Situation in the Gaza Strip
February 5, 2009
Japanese

The recent confiscation of the aid supplies from the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) by police personnel in the Gaza Strip is extremely deplorable.  The Government of Japan strongly condemns this incident and demands that the confiscated aid supplies be returned immediately.
 
The Government of Japan is actively making efforts to help improve the humanitarian situation in the Gaza Strip through emergency humanitarian assistance equivalent to 10 million dollars and providing blankets and other goods as assistance in kind.  It hopes that the international community including the relevant parties will work together for the smooth delivery of the humanitarian assistance to the affected people

http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/announce/2009/2/1187763_1128.html

Good for the Japanesse!

MONDAY 3:24   PM/CST   DFW

Sephardic Poster

Your unfounded declaration about the meaning of life in Hungry is amusing. One enjoys something amusing such as you. Please post more of your words of wisdom, please.

foggy, re gypsies, is that why the Hungarians recently killed some of them? Because they were “jolly people” but thought themselves smarter than non-gypsies as they picked pockets? Not really. The Hungarians attacked the gypsies because they were angry about their economic turmoil—understandable—and needed a focus for all that anger. Did it matter that it wasn’t gypsies (or any other ethnic group) who screwed up the economy? Apparently not. It was just easier to attack gypsies than to attack bad government policies, bankers and speculators. Has dead gypsies helped the Hungarian economy? Of course not.

answer the questions i sent to the gaza tunnel article with my own reply “A Japanese View of the Palestinians”.

re: KDelphi

Thanks for the Newt Gingrich/ AIPAC video link. Sounds like the boy from Cobb Count is itching to take Barry’s job. Obama will have to grovel even further, if he is to keep his Zionist base.
Newt certainly spells it out, does he not? AIPAC means civilization, which means more cluster bombs, more jet fighters, more attack helicopters, more missiles and more tanks. What is most troubling is that Gingrich, being the unethical stooge, is just the sort of worthless chap that many will find appealing, which could force the holy Obama to take up Israel’s war against Iran, just to prove to that crowd that he will take up their agenda. Face it truthdiggers, without the AIPAC money and its related interests, Barry would not be President of the United States. He knows this, the Zionist interests in Washington and Hollywood know this. Only citizens on the outside believe the Internet campaign myth. If you do not believe that Barack Obama serves as a Zionist stooge for the Israeli lobby, I have 2 words for you: Joe Biden.

Mike Pence says that his “christian faith compels him”—to support Israel…

until jesus comes back, I guess…then, what? get saved now, save time.

Oh, please.  Spare me the BS.  Zionist this, Zionist that.  In the old days it was Jew this and Jew that.

mech—You are the one who has “turned on your own people” by disparaging their names around the world, with a militaristic and Zionist vision.

Who, exactly, do you think that this is “good” for?

Brigitte Gabriel and Nonie Darwish would tell you more about the “culture of peace” than I ever could.

A piece of dreck?  LMAO. And you should be the one ashamed of yourself for turning on your own people and supporting terrorists like Hamas.

Newt Gingrich calls for Crusade…at AIPAC…even Jewish Voices for Peace, protests. Genocide, boycotts , and starve people out…“lgst single organization involved in insuring ‘Merkin safety…two are permanently intertwined”. Islam is “anti-civilization”...you gotta hear this..

http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/Learn_About_AIPAC/2841_24598.asp

mech—Lets just guess what you “ethnic identity"is..

All Americans will have dual citizenship with Israel?  LMAO.  Who writes this material?  An Afghan warlord or something?

mech, you Zionist piece of dreck, I am a Jew and what Jews and the American people have to learn from history is to fight bloodthirsty Zionist lemmings like you.  You are a disgrace to the Jewish people and are helping to lead to a historical catasrophe.

What is especially important is to get Zionists out of the US power structure or to neutralize their power before Israel engages in nueclear war or agenicide of the Palestinians.  You are the enemy of the Jewish people and, fortunately, the Jewish people are beginning to realize it.

As an Afghan warlord is quoted as having giving his opinion on AIPAC/Jane Harman in particular, ” what is expected to take place in America by 2020 is that everyone will be forced to become a dual Israeli/American citizen and adopt the logo for its military of hunting for J and M.”

A “genuine ethnic identity” is required to allow self-determination? The US is screwed!!

Sharing a relevant list of questions relating to Palestinian pride and Palestinian statehood.

.        

A Japanese View of the’ Palestinians’
    Couldn’t have said it better.

Talk about one picture being worth a THOUSAND words. 

cid:1.3784564179@web83604.mail.sp1.yahoo.com

Is the world just plain stupid?   

  An interesting questionnaire for Palestinian Advocates
By Yashiko Sagamori

If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,” I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine : 

1.  When was it founded and by whom?

2.  What were its borders?

3.  What was its capital?

4.  What were its major cities?

5.  What constituted the basis of its economy?

6.  What was its form of government?

7.  Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?

8.  Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?

9.  What was the language of the country of Palestine ?

10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?

11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.

12. And, finally, since there is no such country today,  what caused its demise and when did it occur?

You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation.  Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?

And here is the least sarcastic question of all: If the people you mistakenly call “Palestinians” are anything but generic Arabs collected from all over—or thrown out of—the Arab world, if they really have a genuine ethnic identity that gives them right for self-determination, why did they never try to become independent until Arabs suffered their devastating defeat in the Six Day War?

I hope you avoid the temptation to trace the modern day “Palestinians” to the Biblical Philistines: substituting etymology for history won’t work here.

The truth should be obvious to everyone who wants to know it.  Arab countries have never abandoned the dream of destroying Israel ; they still cherish it today. Having time and again failed to achieve their evil goal with military means, they decided to fight Israel by proxy. For that purpose, they created a terrorist organization, cynically called it “the Palestinian people” and installed it in Gaza , Judea, and Samaria . How else can you explain the refusal by Jordan and Egypt to unconditionally accept back the “West Bank” and Gaza , respectively?

The fact is, Arabs populating Gaza, Judea, and Samaria have much less claim to nationhood than that Indian tribe that successfully emerged in Connecticut with the purpose of starting a tax-exempt casino: at least that tribe had a constructive goal that motivated them. The so-called “Palestinians” have only one motivation: the destruction of Israel , and in my book that is not sufficient to consider them a nation”—or anything else except what they really are: a terrorist organization that will one day be dismantled.

In fact, there is only one way to achieve peace in the Middle East . Arab countries must acknowledge and accept their defeat in their war against Israel and, as the losing side should, pay Israel reparations for the more than 50 years of devastation they have visited on it. The most appropriate form of such reparations would be the removal of their terrorist organization from the land of Israel and accepting Israel’s ancient sovereignty over Gaza , Judea, and Samaria .

That will mark the end of the Palestinian people. What are you saying again was its beginning?

LMAO.  I love the so-called peaceniks.  “Zion-nazi” is such a friendly and peaceful term, ain’t it?  You are deluded to think Obama and Biden are “friends” to Israel?  Guess again.

Biden is a Trojan Horse for AIPAC?

No he is not! He is the Vice President of the United States of America!!

(and he had better wake up to that fact!)

TREASON

Punishment? The same punishment as War Criminals -

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Hideki_Tojo_hanging.jpg

Why they got it -

http://www.cnac.org/emilscott/rutter01.htm

Torture - Obama wanted to ‘move one’ and ‘look forward’.

Treason by Rosen and Weissman - Obama pledged his allegiance to AIPAC before his election and has now delviered. As he did on the Gaza genocide.

One wonders what would get him to apply the law as it exists. Perhaps _anything_ that the Zionazis wanted prosecuted?

MONDAY     226 AM/CST DFW

THE ILLUMINATI LIVE!

NEW WORLD ORDER is simply today’s “enlightened absolutism” (also known as benevolent despotism or enlightened despotism) is a form of absolute monarchy or despotism in which rulers were influenced by the Enlightenment. Enlightened monarchs embraced the principles of the Enlightenment, especially its emphasis upon rationality, and applied them to their territories. They tended to allow religious toleration, freedom of speech and the press, and the right to hold private property. Most fostered the arts, sciences, and education.

Enlightened absolutists’ beliefs about royal power were often similar to those of absolute monarchs, in that many believed that they had the right to govern by birth and generally refused to grant constitutions, seeing even the most pro-monarchy ones as being an inherent check on their power.

I AGREE WITH SHINGO OR WHATEVER…

This mech’elsamberg attitude is stereotypical and sounds like so many like him. It is reflect of a different set of values. It reflects values of those whose belief it is that deceit and manipulation is a good thing. It is a admirable skill, it is a sure sign of being “smart.” That is the essential difference. It is learned behavior and, thus, the cultural clash. And those who abhor this tradition are considered simpletons. Bernie Madoff demonstrates the difference. Even Pollard the spy demonstrates this difference. A step further in this value system is that you are only “smart” one if you don’t get caught. Actually, it is the exact same value system of a gypsy leader that I once interviewed. Jolly people but it is understood that if you are distracted and have your pocket picked, you are less intelligent than the gypsy. Fines and penalties are just the cost of doing business. That is the bottom line. Not personal, just business. You know that is true, don’t you?

>> I knew they were innocent which is why the case was dropped.

I keep staring at that sentence… marveling at it, really.

>> No, what we have learned from history is that the Jews are no longer going to be scapegoats and blamed for all the ills of the world. 

Yeah, poor little Jonathan Pollard.  Just an innocent victim of circumstance right mech’elsamberg?

So what you’re saying is that if Israel is going to be scapegoats and blamed for all the ills of the world, then it might as well do it?

>> Too bad Jews started to learn to fight back and we ain’t going anywhere.

That’s like saying Hitler was fighting back because the Jewish community pissed him off.

mech’elsamberg

I read your rant to mean your are ready to fight. Of course you are, you are always quick to take that course but, in the end, history shows you always lose. Now what is the use of repeating such ugly history. Best remember the lesson of history, least it be repeated like some endless cycle. The bottom line is the gross difference in the value of the cultures. Understand it and do the right thing. Once you provoke the critica masses, you cannot stop the momentum. My friend, is that what you really want?