correction….....you have NO right to be

Since when is legitimate intellectual philosophical and theological discourse “stupid” ? - I think you might be out of your element here M’am…........Best that you refrain from commentary in areas where you have right to be…........sorry-

Who’s arguing….............???

I am not arguing “god” with you..its stupid.

At the risk of too much seriousness in the face of your facetiousness…........May I venture to say that God would not contradict Him self either. If He’s omnipotent (i.e., all powerful) then what rock couldn’t He lift? If He said “I shall design an object that is in contradistinction to our natural laws” then God wouldn’t be making sense, and we all know that’s not possible. If He were to do so He would also be contradicting Himself and He not only wouldn’t do that - He can’t. And why would he even bother to design an object - in this case, a rock - that violates the laws of physics and wasn’t ‘lift-able’, since by definition, all things are able to be moved from one place to another - in time and through space, otherwise it wouldn’t be a thing. This is one of the reasons for the famous equation discovered by Einstein - E=MC2

de_Genova—I was being facetious..

Or, if god is all powerful, can he make a rock so big, that he himself cant lift it?

KDelphi said, and I quote —->“And, please god, go back in time and make 9/11 not happen at all…”

God does not go back in time to change or alter events that have already transpired. Once something has taken taken place - that’s it, otherwise reality itself would be in a state of disorder and chaos.  If he did do as your praying for it would be tantamount to Him going back on His word. It is God who ‘speaks’ events into existence and he doesn’t ‘un-speak’ Himself. He will influence future events though and often does. God knows all outcomes so He may from time to time intervene in such a way as to have a bearing on a certain outcome.

And, please god, go back in time and make 9/11 not happen at all…

It is my fervent hope and prayer is that these opening salvo’s - these revelations on criminal behavior in the Bush admin. might possibly lead to the TRUTH OF 9/11 - and I am absolutely positive that almost every ‘patriotic’ American knows what I am talking about. Once the once impregnable dam reveals even the slightest crack it is in danger of collapsing completely…........Praise God

I tried to download the video someone posted, about the incidents Hersch spoke of—-either my browser wouldt do it,(not unusual) or maybe I was afraid to try too hard…when he stated that the worst part was the “shrieking of the boys”, I got nauseated.

Anyone who would defend not prosecuting stuff like this, has a screw loose.

And one for Joe. Just so you know, Americans DO do things like this. I’ll have to shorten this as this site has blacklisted it for some reason ....

Rumsfeld ordered crimes against children

Perhaps the most egregious example: “Republican Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld authorized the rape of children in Iraqi prisons in order to humiliate their parents into providing information about the anti-American insurgency.</a>

WHEN are the war trials to begin again?......

Fucking. Hung. With. Piano. Wire. On the White House front lawn after the world sees and hears the evidence.

Way back when (as in when the Norwegians came out with evidence on tape) that American soldiers were raping 7 year old children and up to “force their parents to talk”, everyone said I was making it up. Then news articles broke that Congress was “listening” to these tapes that I made up. Hersh was quoted as saying of these non-existent tapes Congress admitted they were listening to, “The worst is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking,” the reporter told an ACLU convention last week.” The news articles were there, no one bothered to read them, so they claimed. And nothing on those tapes would be made public because “they would endanger American troops in Iraq.”

“This is a summary of Hersh speaking at the ACLU 2004 America At A Crossroads conference according to EdCone.com (via Oliver Willis). I verified by watching the video myself (it starts at 1:07, the “worse stuff” part starts at 1:30).

There’s more bad stuff in here, read Ed Cone’s summary.

I’ll try transcribing some of the more important bits.

[my transcription from 1:31 - 1:32]
Some of the worse that happened that you don’t know about, ok. Videos, there are women there. Some of you may have read they were passing letters, communications out to their men. This is at Abu Ghraib which is 30 miles from Baghdad [...]

The women were passing messages saying “Please come and kill me, because of what’s happened”. Basically what happened is that those women who were arrested with young boys/children in cases that have been recorded. The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling. The worst about all of them is the soundtrack of the boys shrieking that your government has. They are in total terror it’s going to come out.”

<a >Read the story yourself</a>

No one gave a shit then, they don’t now. No one will be prosecuted, despite the fact that several people “leaked” the fact that Bush & Cheney ordered American soldiers to “arrest children between the ages of 7 to 15 and torture them to make their parents talk”.

Oh yeah. America. Land of the free, home of the brave. We can’t even stop zealot, religious Prohibition asshats here! Look what the religious become when you throw them in a war with people no one gives a shit about…

The day is coming. And it ain’t that far off.

PSmith—Yes I have been told, over and over again, that Pres. Obama can “walk and chew gum at the same time”—so why is everyone saying that prosecuting torture wil “take too much time away from his other priorities”? Can AG Holder prosecute, while Pres. Obama takes care of other things?

It would truly be a pleasure to see it.

And these are only from the Two prisons we actually ran- what about those held at Black Sites? What are the other crimes committed in those countries who think nothing of torture, typical day at the office.
What Crimes have been committed no legitimizing CYA briefs were ever requested?
When Cheney is willing to come out of his disclosed Shadows and grant interviews, you have to surmise he’s trying to distract away from the more heinous crimes he’s committed.Say like Exactly Who was on His Hit lists.
Cheney,Rummy and Wolfie and all their lil’ minions- esp W- had better Pray We prosecute them for these Torture memos. If more is revealed, their executions could be sealed. And if other countries find out what they have been up to - not just over the last 8 yrs, but poss. 40- they may be begging to be executed.They could face extradiciton to countries they once considered ‘friendly’ to their agenda. What do you think the Pakistani’s would do to them if it was Discovered Bhouto was on that Hit list?
Obama may be their hope to avoid falling victim to their own high crimes. I’d suggest Mr. Cheney start kissing this New Presidents Ass, Before he finds himself on one of those ‘off the radar’ flights.

outraged—Yes, thats about right. Its just like a “war on terror” is now an “overseas contingency operation”.....

jackpine—I say, lets “root ‘em out”, and “drain the swamp”...lol…let the chips fall where they may.

We dont need war criminals representing us. We can do better…

Amen KDelphi and Outraged,

That is why there’s going to be secret commissions and foot-dragging.  The top of the Democratic Party is wholly implicated in this mess.  The best we can hope for from the Dems is turning it into a partisan witch hunt that will only make matters worse.  I say investigate and prosecute based on the evidence and let the Dems that fall fall…it would probably be good for the nation.  Actually, investigate and prosecute the Dems with special fervor since they should have been the check and balance.

Ed,

He didn’t release the memos because he wanted to.  He had to decide whether or not comply with a FOIA request.  Had he denied it he would have been branded with aiding and abetting Bush and a complete lack of the transparency he likes to talk about but seems less keen on implementing.

Co-members of the Harvard Law Review commented during the campaign that he’s terrible at making decisions.  Maybe he’s gotten better, but all of the evidence available so far suggests that this is not the case.  And i’d say that this torture issue would constitute exhibit A in ranking the evidence of his inability to make a decision.

Re: KDelphi

Your comment: “They are protecting people like Pelosi and Harman—anyone who thinks that neo-cons are going to go down without dragging the go-along Dems down with them is mistaken..anyone who knew about it, and, did nothing to stop it, broke the law. The soldiers paid. Let the big guys pay. It is beginning to look like the good ole boys network (and girls) will prevail.”

Good post.  I say let’s be “bi-partisan” regarding torture, after all it IS against the law.  Well… except in those cases where you dream up elaborate schemes and call them law, qualify them with fictitious logic, pen secret memos, re-brand words like…torture to be “enhanced interrogation”, look the other way, move on, move “forward”, round up innocents and re-brand them as “terrorists”, cover up the video taped rape of little boys and such like things.  Do I understand that correctly?

Ed—why wont you hear this—“the US doesnt torture”. Sorry,. but if you waqtnt a private consversation, send a private email.

How in the world would you KNOW that Pres. Obama was thinking one thing and doing another? Do you know him personally? Did he tell you that that was his “strategy”? Lemme know, cause it seems to change everyday.

It doesnt really make any sense and everyone knows it (not all will admit it) That is why he is trying to backtrack.

They are protecting people like Pelosi and Harman—anyone who thinks that neo-cons are going to go down without dragging the go-along Dems down with them is mistaken..anyone who knew about it, and, did nothing to stop it, broke the law. The soldiers paid. Let the big guys pay. It is beginning to look like the good ole boys network (and girls) will prevail.

Its really not a difficult concept….I heard Sen. Dorgan get up yesterday, at c-span.org ., and plead for the life of a Chinese man (he put up a pic of his family) whom he clains is being tortured in China…HOW in HELL can we ask for ANYTHING if we dont procsecute? I am talking about the reputation of all of us…that is not unreasonable.

All the arguments against prosecution are just wrong. Period.

re: By Folktruther, April 24 at 8:38 pm:

My contention concerns Obama’s motivations for releasing this flood of documents (and the upcoming photos).

I’m not saying it will work.

But his motivation — to generate more pressure for prosecutions — cannot be denied, because it is, predictably, having that effect, and he’s not stupid.

I’m not saying it will work

I’m not saying it will work.

Oh, and by the way, I’m not saying it will work.

Did I mention that I am not predicting that this will work?

You and KDelphi simply will not hear what I’m saying. Whatever.

KDelphi is perfectly reasonable, Ed.  It is YOU that are being Pollyannish.  Obama is releasing the torture pictures INSTEAD of prosecuting torture.  What massive public outrage are you talking about?  Romney and the other Gop leaders ran as candidates SUPPORTING TORTURE.  And the Dem leaders are complicit in the torture decisions, so the Obama cheerleaders will support whatever he does.

The American people have been so brutalized by the learned and mass media that there is a feeling that torture makes them safer.  As long as only Terrorists are tortured.  And Terroists are whoever American authority says they are. 

the chances that Cheney or Bush or Rumsfield being indicted by Obama is so near zero that it is not worth thinking about.
They know where the bodies are buried, and they have the Zionists behind them, since Israel routinely tortures Palestinians.  And Obama’s is a Zionist administration.
the simple truth of the matter is that the American power system is barbaric, no matter who the president is.

re: By KDelphi, April 24 at 5:55 pm:

I was talking to Robert; I already know that you can’t be reasoned with.

Unfortunately, these pictures camouflage the fact the bush-crime-family has already had destroyed the real incriminating evidence i.e., those videos of their illegal waterboarding and other interrogation tactics in use.  Personally, i don’t care what their excuses were for destroying the evidence, i can’t help feeling that was a decision that should not have been their own.  How many on death row would have liked the opportunity to destroy incriminating evidence that lead to their convictions.

Ed Harges—He could say, “I will prosecute people who broke intl law”. That would probably do it. I still dont buy that argument. Sorry, just cant. I am still amazed that Dems dont see how silly it sounds. You dont need knowledge of “legal matters” to know what is right.

I was going to post some videos from Abu Ghraib here, from MoJo, but, after seeing some of the other ones, these were mild. I cant get my browser to download the ones PSmith linked. Maybe I should be glad.

re: By Robert, April 24 at 4:35 pm :

Tell me, Robert: if Obama wants to protect these people, including Democrats, why has he released these memos? Why is he going to release these photos? Do you think he’s stupid, that he wasn’t able to foresee the public response?

Obviously he’s not stupid. We have seen too much proof of his intelligence to doubt it. Therefore, this massive public outrage, the greatly increased pressure to prosecute all concerned, is exactly what he intends.

Top Democrats Complicit In Torture Cover-Up

Paul Joseph Watson

Prison Planet.com
Friday, April 24, 2009

“The Obama administration is resisting an independent inquiry into the Bush torture program because top Democrats like Pelosi were complicit in approving illegal methods.

We now know why top Democrats are protecting Bush administration officials from facing an inquiry into the illegal torture program - because several of them were actually complicit in giving their approval for such methods to be used.

The White House stressed again yesterday that it would not be pursuing an investigation of key Bush administration officials, despite the manifestly provable fact that the order to torture came from the very top, which was re-affirmed with the recent release of the Senate Armed Services Committee report.

White House spokesman Robert Gibbs stated yesterday, “I think the last few days might well be evidence of why something like this would likely just become a political back and forth.”

“By (definition), an independent commission would probably not be something that I would weigh in on if Congress were to create one of those,” he told reporters, according to AFP.

Democratic Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid also said he opposed an independent torture probe, stating, “I think it would be very unwise, from my perspective, to start having commissions, boards, tribunals, until we find out what the facts are.”

In addition, upon the recent release of the torture memos, Obama’s right-hand man, chief of staff Rahm Emanuel, told ABC News that top Bush administration officials “should not be prosecuted either and that’s not the place that we go.” Obama’s statement that accompanied the release of the torture memos stated, “In releasing these memos, it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution.”

Why are top Democrats so vehemently opposed to an independent inquiry into the blatantly illegal Bush torture program? This goes further than the crony self-interests of the two party monopoly - it turns out that top Democrats had foreknowledge of the torture and actually provided their unmitigated approval for the methods when presented with them by the CIA.”

http://www.prisonplanet.com/top-democrats-complicit-in-torture-cover-up.html

After releasing these photos, Obama will face even more enormous pressure to endorse prosecutions of these people.

Since he’s not stupid, we can conclude that he foresees and welcomes this “pressure”.

Obama is helping us to “force” him to do what’s right. To those of my fellow liberals who are screaming bloody murder because Obama has stated his supposed reluctance see Bush’s torturers brought to justice: how much more obvious does he have to make it that he’s on our side?

Obama wants justice to be done, and he’s preparing the country by releasing the evidence first — overwhelming, vivid evidence. No administration has ever before released such a massive amount of damning material revealing crimes by our government, so soon after those crimes were committed. Please, people, appreciate what Obama is doing and stop demonizing him.

I second skulz fontaine. Disgusting.

This reads like an ad for an upcoming atttraction.

Congressional hearings and a War Crimes Tribunal NOW!

Obama intends to “release” more atrocity on/or by May 28? Wow, isn’t that just a stunning development. Why oh why do we drag this charade on and on? WAR CRIMES TRIBUNALS!! Do it now and do it for the sake of JUSTICE!! Get this crap out in the open, all of it. Then prosectue the war criminals.