Sepharad,

“They absorbed everything they could learn—except they really hated Western music. It offended their ears”.

Well, bagpipes offend my ears so I can understand the Turks not being acceptable of European music, being so different than what they preferred. Accepting other peoples differences does not necessarily mean you have to like them. It probably seemed like noise to them, I find this amusing, like polite me sitting though a bagpipe concert. 

It is sad they did not teach more of Mideastern and Eastern history when I was in growing up, not that I would have appreciated it at the time, I seemed to have other priorities when younger.

Leefeller, I understood you were talking about slowness of reason and didn’t think you were talking about me. I agree with you and prefer discussing to arguing, and with some like you and Inherit and Shenonymous and Mirror it’s possible, but it’s not the prevailing preferred style on TD. The reason I stay on it is that so much of it is interesting but I think that like you I may need a hiatus from it. (My husband thinks I definitely do need the break, but I’ll get an involuntary hiatus shortly: trailering two horses from Las Cruces to Northern California requires focus on the road!)

You’re also right about paying attention to everything, not just the bear in the woods to get the whole picture.

But if it happens to be a grizzly bear, however, I’d probably keep my eyes on him or her. They are very smart, very unpredictable, very aggressive—like some politicians I guess but I appreciate the grizzly bear more. An old friend who is a part-time hunting guide and a part-time paramedic up in Wyoming says walking around can be dangerous—he’s spent some time in trees with the bear looking up—but if you’re on a horse or mule it’ll notice the bear before you do and get you out of there fast. Last summer, he told us that a bear attacked some horses in a corral and they all jumped the fence and got away, when a mountain lion on a rock ledge was watching and jumped on the back of the last horse, clawing away. The horse took off bucking till the lion was just hanging on its haunches, then started kicking at it till it let go. (Friend didn’t see this—just surmised it from bear tracks, horse tracks and the wounds on his big white horse. Luckily he is a paramedic so he just used canvas string to stich the flap of flesh back onto the horse and now it’s fine.)

So I guess while you have to watch the bear you have to look up to see if there’s a mountain lion lurking.

I ramble too. We both probably need a hiatus—I haven’t gotten any packing done and it’s time to feed and exercise the horses. See ya.

Leefeller, Your analysis that most of the hatred and conflict coming from outside manipulation is very close to the truth. (I enjoy Mid Eastern history too but it’s a big subject and no one quite has a grasp on all of it except people who’ve spent their entire lives thinking about it. Bernard Lewis is a pretty good writer who has written many books, some narrowly focused but some that give pretty good overviews of the place. He’s the first writer I’d ever read who noticed that the main difference about the Turks (as compared to other Moslems) was that they were curious about the West as early as the 17th century and asked their diplomats to bring back more knowledge than simple war machines. They absorbed everything they could learn—except they really hated Western music. It offended their ears.

cyrena - part III - It’s expensive flying back and forth to Israel—have only been twice, and hope to go again in a few years. But I know Jews and Arabs there, and I keep in touch them, so I’m more in contact that you might think.

My other interest in the Middle East is that Israel survive, though not as a nation hated by its Arab neighbors. I’ve read and heard of relations between Jews and Arabs from the beginning ancient times and the connections to the population who remained there post-Roman, in great detail and in many books. The situation there NOW, however, is almost a microcosm of what we are seeing in a larger picture, us barreling along toward possibly nuclear war engineered by empire-happy neocons, right rightwing Likudniks, corporations and military groups in the U.S. NOT controlled by the dreaded Israel Lobby (which does NOT represent Israel OR its longterm best interests in reality). There is no understanding on either side. In the small picture in Israel, Arab elites and rightwing Israelis have just about destroyed any hope for any peace in the near future, just when it is most important that we achieve it. On the other hand, in Israel, there are many many Jews and many many Arabs who want peace and a better living standard for themselves and their children. My hope in our country, the US, is that Obama will pick the right time to exit the missile defense system, do so, and successfully sell it to the public. My hope is that in Israel, the human rights groups continue to operate because it keeps the IDF aware that there is a line people can’t expect to cross with impunity, that the pragmatic Mossad will keep the ideologues and some of the military from attacking Iran. Of course I have more optimistic longer term hopes for the region and its economic growth but when I talk about stuff like that some of you people doubt my sincerity, etc etc. So I won’t go there. Just leave it at the fact that there will be no peace for Israel and no security unless the Palestinians get what they need to have their own state and to defend it. This will require a lot of heavy lifting on both sides. And painful decisions. Look. Even if Iran gets their nuclear bomb I can’t imagine that the mullahs would let anyone use it. And I’m afraid that by attacking Iran, for any reason, Israel or the U.S. could start a war. (Mirror mentioned U.S. nuclear systems are still on Launch on Warning!)

I know a lot more about Israel and its neighbors and their histories than I’ve written but what matters at the moment is keeping some degree of calm on both sides. Hamas and Hezbollah are pledged to destroy Israel, but it would be a lot harder for them to continue talking about it if the Palestinians had a better deal, and if this time aid to the Palestinians gets to them and is not used as a political lever by Hamas. Both countries need better leaders, but this is all we have to work with now and we’d better start doing it. Everyone is very lucky that Obama won that election.

A short PS—people on the site are always citing Jews who are anti-Israel as if that were proof of anything. Some Jews love Israel, some approve of it, some don’t and some hate the idea of a Jewish state. People who oppose the state sometimes do so on religious principle, or because they don’t want to be blamed as Jews for anything Israel does. Some Jews are eager to fit in to whatever the received wisdom is around them; differentness has been dangerous historically. But a Jew or an Israeli criticizing Israei policy doesn’t mean they’re right.

As for me, I do what I can that I think is good for Israel but it’s obvious that my loyalties are America first because what I’ve spent most of my life doing is rights activism, FoI advocacy, investigative reporting on issues that affect Americans, then relaxed into a history magazine and now writing books that do not have anything to do with Israel per se. You can only judge people by their actions.

Sepharad,

Enjoyed comments on history,  my ignorance may not exceed most Americans, but I find it fascinating. Thanks, hope to hear more.

In reflations to the history of the Middle East, were does the madness of today come from.  My ignorant suspicions, outside manipulation has taken its toll on the peoples of the area, possibly feeding fires of discourse and hate from both sides?

Thanks again.

cyrena—part II

Also very interested in Al Andalus because it was a time and place when Arabs and Jews (though Jews were definitely second-class citizens) lived in relative harmony. Also was a time when Arab culture and civilization flowered, same time when Europe was in Dark Ages. If Ib’n Rush’d had not translated Aristotle, the West probably would not have heard of him. He was driving from Cordoba (along with Moses Maimonides) when a particularly fanatic sect conquered that city and burnt its libraries. Rush’d: “There is no tyranny like the tyranny of priests.” I’m interested in this period for many reasons. First, Arab civilization was so advanced but by the end of the Reconquista it dissipated, and learning moved east where Persian Zoroastrians picked it up and carried it forward. Would like to understand how it broke down so fast and so completely. Second, the Reconquista and the Inquisition have a direct relationship to the exploration and colonizing of the New World and the conquistadors. The book I’m writing is on that specific subject but has become two books because explaining the conquistadors as well as settlers in New World is a huge subject. Relationship is very close; surprises me that I’ve encountered no books from that perspective but that keeps it interesting.

Re modern Mideast & Near East, my interests are broad. One period in particular is the colonial and post-colonial period, which the great game spans. First was power and empire (mainly Britain and France though other countries were more active in other parts of Africa, and only became of interest to Americans when Saudis drilling for water hit oil. Aramco was formed in ‘33.
All this had an impact on Palestine and modern Israel, which is very much of interest to me as I’ve had family there since 1828 (Romanian pogroms sent them to Palestine to join small subsistence farming Jewish communities there but long before official term Zionist became known. My great-grandfather told his two sons that he wanted one of them to go to America where there were also other Jews so at least one of the two branches would probably survive. My grandfather came here but the families remained close though ours in the U.S. is definitely more numerous. A lot of Jews came to the U.S. in 19th century—first the West Europeans who were embarrassed when after a generation or so Eastern European Jews came with all their old world customs etc. Lots of Western Euro Jews came out West—in fact did a whole issue of them in our old history magazine under the topic “We Do Things Differently Here.” (We turned up, in the Bancroft Library, and published, a brief memoir by a rabbi who in the 19th century was discussing problem that some people felt they were naturally more loyal to Israel than the U.S. He dismissed that with a one is our mother, the other our father, and we love both parents. No existential issues then and of course most Jews were still very religious.)

My mother was a Marxist Jew who had been a Communist until the non-aggression treaty was signed, when she tore up her card. She kept a map of the Mediterranean Sea on the kitchen wall and showed me places, who lived where, etc. Our family in Israel had Arab friends and the surviving one still does. I’ve met them, and other Bedouin in Israel and keep in touch. The party is support is MeretzUSA—sort of a kibitzing branch of leftwing Zionist party Meretz in Israel, which in this election was too pure to go with Labour into a centrist government so now Meretz has only three seats in Knesset and Netanyahu is PM. (Makes me feel better about voting for Obama instead of the green party in our own election.)  continued to part III

cyrena—The full title of the report is on a different thread, posted late last week or early this week. I have it written down somewhere but have to get into one of the boxes out in the truck as most notebooks are packed (getting ready to drive back home to Northern California, just north of San Francisco). It was written in ‘02 but I didn’t read a copy until well into the Iraq War, in ‘04, at an Iranian friend’s house. If he no longer can find it I’ll search for a copy for my library. Gist of the major criticisms—don’t hold me to exact words—were deficiency of freedom politically and socially, gender discrimination, lack of interest in and in some cases overt objection to education, passivity in making changes in situations much-complained about, blaming U.S., West, and Israel for all its problems. Also noted former colonial places damaged in American wars such as Vietnam were growing well. Famous Arab medieval historian Ib’n Khaldun, in his Muquadimmah, harshly criticized Arabs’ characteristics as individuals and as societies. Some of it correspondeds to the report’s complaints; gives much detail re Moslem world at that time.

Re Las Cruces—Rainy season in Northern California with its barometric ups and downs had considerably sped up the progress of my rheumatoid lung disease so a few years ago the doctor said those months in a dry place would slow it back down. It’s a lot of trouble and expensive to rent, but we’ve done it three years now and it does make a difference. Las Cruces is nice; main advantage is that it’s uncrowded and horse-friendly.

Most research I don’t do on the net; do read papers on net, Cairo Times, Le Monde, Guardian, London Times, all the Israeli papers and South China Morning Post (which has unfortunately started charging). Have built up my own library, plus go to libraries in a day’s driving distance, and connect on net with some far-away and overseas libraries but most big ones have material not computerized, and twice I’ve had to travel in last eight years—once to the British Museum Library and once to the Archives of the Indies in Sevilla.

Though not a convert like Sodium I’ve always been interested in Near and Middle East history. Have of course read the Koran though now just look into it for specific stuff; have a good French bio of Mohammed; and also have and have read most of the Haditha, fat eight-volume bunch of commentary on the sayings of Mohammed, interpretations by various of his followers and disciples, and a pretty general guide of how to live as a good Muslim. It’s important to every Muslim life as well as the big issues. I have modern Arab histories such as Hourani’s, and Arab historians writing during the Crusades. Am interested in that period, Salah-ah-Din’s affectionate relationship with Jews as a whole and his physician-confide Moses Maimonides in particular. Salah-ah-din’s life has been pretty well covered by modern writers from Tariq Ali to Bernard Lewis and more, but the bits and pieces of what he did and said that are in much older books and sources give a better picture of him. Not quite as angelic as Sir Walter Scott portrayed him in The Talisman, but close, considering that Salah-ah-din lived in a time when views such as his were rare. He wasn’t a killer or a jihadist—but a uniter of many squabbling sects and factions. His physician and confidante was Moses Maimonides. Salah-ah-din was different, perhaps because he was a Kurd. Kept Kurdish and Turkomen warriors always with him, but after big campaigns using huge Bedouin armies, he paid the Bedu off and sent them home. When he conquered Jerusalem, he not only rebuilt the synagogue in which King Richard had burnt alive the families of that city’s Jewish men, who were defending it side by side with the Saracens, but ordered built many more synagoges and sent runners to surrounding areas to bring back the Jews who had fled when the Crusaders arrived.      (continued to part II)

Sepharad,

My reference to slow was in the department of using reason. My reference was not intended or directed towards yourself.  Experiences on TD, have provided me with extended bigotry antennas, but also accumulated over my life time.

Some people prefer to argue rather then discuss, for preset notions and agendas demand such. Independent thought is necessary to see beyond the bear shiting in the woods, though some would argue the point.  Individuals needs for solace in numbers to belong in groups, disputes the concept of the individual, plus disrupts ability of reason. 

Sorry for the ramblings, I probably need a hiatus from TD, though I enjoy the mental stimulation, it seems I prefer humor which totaly eludes me at this time.

Leefeller—“Slow” is a kind way of putting it. Some bigots are also “fast” and react without looking at why they want to believe, or need to believe, what they do.

I’m not a bigot, but there are things I find hard to believe, such as that IDF soldiers sometimes commit acts of brutality. I do know, though, that war is what it is, and it’s good that there are so many human rights group function in Israel because it makes the IDF toe the line. When they cross it, they are punished, and should be. But I know so many current and ex-IDF people (and am related to some) that it’s hard for me to accept blanket references to IDF brutality. I know I have biases, and try to remind myself that they exist when I look at some issue. (In journalism school they work hard to brainwash you into being aware of your biases just as routinely as they teach you that it’s useful to be able to read upside down and under the basic semantic principle that the map is not the territory.)

Sepharad

Not only are some country’s slow to develop, groups of people can be slow in the evolution of things and I have noticed some individuals who embrace bigotry which seems to suggest a kind of slowness. Maybe this article does not denote slowness, but it does seem backwards in a Medieval sense.

Freedoms of people to say what they believe are freedoms I do not see in some societies. This also includes the freedom to criticize without fear. To not have to hold ones face right and wear certain clothes without being stoned, to death. (not hash stoned)

One could ask are freedoms, rights or privileges, in a slow or backward society one does not ask this question in public.

Maybe slow is not the right word, though I do use the term for some people I know, most of them are bigoted.

By Sepharad, March 18 at 8:22 pm
•  “(The UN had a dozen or so Arab scholars write a report in 2002 on why the Arab societies have been so slow to develop in comparison with other societies, including Muslim societies such as in Turkey and Iran.)”

This sounds interesting Sepharad,
Any idea what this report might have been called, or any of those who might have been involved, or any clue at all to how we might ‘find’ such a report, since you don’t ever bother to provide references, legitimate or otherwise.

I’m also interested in knowing what you and Leefeller consider Arab societies to have been ‘slow’ to develop in comparison to other societies. Slow as in what, and by whose relevance? Seeing as Mesopotamia is the birthplace of civilization, and the West was very late catching up, it somehow seems like it would be quite a feat for these scholars, but I’d certainly like to read what they had to say. Do you know any of their names. I’ve checked in all of the standard places, and throughout JSTOR and the entire collection of works commissioned by the UN in 2002, and nothing comes up. I can’t imagine why, so anything you might remember about it would be really helpful.

Meantime, what do you think of as ‘slow’ development, and in comparison to what other societies, and specifically in 2002.

•  “…even Sodium who is not really a bigot but is so immersed in the actual beauty of much of Islamic culture that he can’t see the actual problems making it difficult for Arab societies to function…”

So gee, what made you decide that Sodium isn’t really a bigot, but just can’t see the actual problems making it difficult for Arab societies to function?

How could it be that a Zionist Jew like yourself living in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico, (Jesus Christ…Las CRUCES???? – never mind my Kindle reader suggestion….they don’t deli ver there) could possibly have a clue to how Arab socieites even function, let alone have an opinion on the actual problems, IF THERE EVEN ARE ANY. Who said they have problems ‘functioning’? Just because they don’t ‘function’ like YOU do? What problems to they have Sepharad? I mean besides those functioning problems that come from say 60 years of genocide by Israel?
I admit it is pretty difficult for a socieity to function under a hostile military dictatorship that has been actively involved in the Ethnic Cleansing of a few million Arabs over the past 60 plus years. The bombs, the starvation blockades, the white phosphorus, and the destruction of the UN facilities in the last slaughter on Gaza that also killed the UN aide workers. Do ya think that might be part of the problem with those bigots just not being able to understand, because I guess they just can’t see the problems of all that dying, because of the beauty of the Islamic Culture. Yeah, right.

If only they could just get over this massive and on-going genocide, and just do the right thing, eh? If they would just stop expecting to eat, or have medicine to treat the painful chemical burns that the white phorphorus eats them up with…dropped of course by the IDF…as a matter of course. Of course.

No more problems that Sodium just refuses to recognize, despite the fact that he knows more about the geopolitics of the Arabian Middle East than you could conjure up in a dozen lifetimes.

Meantime, I wonder if the same might be said of you? Could it be that you’re so immersed in the violent greed of Zionism and so committed to the goal of Zionism, (the extermination of all Arabs) that maybe you don’t quite see the problems that ISRAEL has with ‘functioning’ like anything more than a rouge state involved in over 60 years worth of war crimes?

Leefeller,

It’s been awhile since I’ve read it that report, but on the “contributor” part some of them said they were no longer able to live and write in their own countries, and the others said nothing at all but according to their bios were no longer living in the Middle East. (I don’t have much respect for the UN in general, at least not since they made Sudan the head of their human rights commission, but they did provide these men with the time and a forum to publish their analyses of the problems holding back Arab societies.) 

Last week, writer Salman Rushdie gave a speech at the University of New Mexico here in Las Cruces. My husband went but I couldn’t (was still recovering from my horse’s somersault with me on her at the time) and was sorry to miss it. I like some of his books. Husband doesn’t, but knows I do so he went to listen and tell me anything interesting he said. Mostly he didn’t talk about literature, but what it felt like to be put under some Muslim cleric’s fatwa—a death sentence which if carried out will give the killer a particular status in paradise. Rushdie himself was in hiding for years, bodyguards etc. and has survived, but he said many of the people associated with him had been murdered, including a Swedish publisher and the Japanese translator of his books for that country. Rushdie said that he was very concerned about the growing acceptance even in Europe that if you write or draw (Danish cartoons) or make a film (e.g. “Fitna”, by Theo van Gogh who was murdered after his film was released) you may be risking your life. This makes our old McCarthy blacklist era look tame by comparison.

No society is perfect, extreme Islamic laws if enforced can be pretty bad. Especially for women.

Sepharad,

Well if the Arab Scholars wrote on why the Arab societies have been so slow to develop in comparison with other societies and they were not biased plus wrote what may be the real problems, they would be joining our 75 year old lady under the lash if they were lucky. Some of the problems are apparent to me, but I am not a Scholar Arab or otherwise.

Leefeller, re your march 14 query “where did all the bigots go?”—they all went over to the “Israel Rightwing government…” thread, even Sodium who is not really a bigot but is so immersed in the actual beauty of much of Islamic culture that he can’t see the actual problems making it difficult for Arab societies to function. (The UN had a dozen or so Arab scholars write a report in 2002 on why the Arab societies have been so slow to develop in comparison with other societies, including Muslim societies such as in Turkey and Iran.)

Huh????  I never said that. You must have me confused with someone else.

I don’t want to insult your belief in God, but I won’t shy away from CHALLENGING your belief in God.  There’s a difference.

Inherit the wind, sorry about that.  Now I’m confused.  Somehow this post was placed in the wrong forum I think. 

Before I say anymore, let me go and read who you are because apparently I’m mixed up.

I had asked you about the miraculous things that you see and study everyday, you insulted God by saying He doesn’t know how to make a spine, and yet you don’t believe in God. So I take it you meant to insult my belief in Him. 
********************************************

Huh????  I never said that. You must have me confused with someone else.

I don’t want to insult your belief in God, but I won’t shy away from CHALLENGING your belief in God.  There’s a difference.

Inherit the wind…I retract my statement that you lie when you say you only use science, for plainly you did not say that.  I apologize. 

I had asked you about the miraculous things that you see and study everyday, you insulted God by saying He doesn’t know how to make a spine, and yet you don’t believe in God. So I take it you meant to insult my belief in Him. 

So, do you not rationally think that if we humans, being the elete creation cannot come close to making the things we see, how is it that you conclude the existance of such things?

Inherit the wind you said: I fundamentally do NOT accept that one can know “Truth” just by knowing it—by claiming God is talking in your ear. To me, Truth is a direction, a direction that can ONLY be pointed to, and pointed to by logic, reason, and the scientific method.

Then why do you continue to use invisible facuelties of your being that you cannot label, see or even prove exists, you just know its there because you use it to debate the very things you discover in science.

You lie when you say you only use science.  Your rationalizing is not a component of science, but of that part of man that sets us apart from all other things on this planet.

my response: Herein lies the hypocricy.  They claim Mohammed as God’s last and greatest prophet.  But they accept Jesus as a prophet.
One of the qualifications for a prophet to be considered a true prophet, is for those things that they teach or prophesy come true.  How then can they hold he is a prophet and then say He is a liar?  For they deny what he prophesied and taught and did not believe Him and yet they claime he was a prophet.  Do you see that they cannot do both? And yet they do?
********************************************************

Surely you aren’t that dense, are you?  They don’t doubt Jesus was a prophet, they simply doubt YOUR BOOK about Him!  Since the current NT was assembled, picking and choosing scriptures supposedly by “divine inspiration” rather than the fact: by the POLITICS of who got to control it, why should ANYONE who is not a Christian believer accept your scripture as valid?

Has nothing to do with doubting Jesus.

****************************************************
my response: Just because they have many truths out there doesn’t mean there isn’t a particular one that links to a true God.  It’s like asking ten people the same question and all answers are different.  If the question that is asked is: ‘what is truth’, should we conclude that there must be no truth since there were ten different answers?  Or perhaps we should consider that it is the truth as they know it and perceive it.  Should we conclude then that there is not a complete and perfect truth because we have observed in mankind (some highly respected) various degrees of truth?
****************************************************

Surely you don’t expect this argument to have any meaning at all to an Agnostic, do you?

I fundamentally do NOT accept that one can know “Truth” just by knowing it—by claiming God is talking in your ear. To me, Truth is a direction, a direction that can ONLY be pointed to, and pointed to by logic, reason, and the scientific method.

Anything else that claims to be “truth” is, to me, meaningless.

Re: christian

It seems the discussion is sort of all over the place here.  How about if we stick to one or two issues/topics (that is if you’d like to continue the debate) and then return to the others later.

Your post: “you said: I very definitely have read this account.  Now can you prove the bible as the WORD OF GOD or only as the WORDS OF MAN?

my response: You have challenged the Word of God and I think I deserve your proof proving otherwise.”

I have not challenged the word of god, I have challenged the bible.  You are CLAIMING it to be the word of god, however I disagree.  The bible was written by men and I am not aware of any religion that is not in agreement with that fact.

you said: Me:  Again…  RADICAL Christians ALSO believe it to be an “abomination to not be christian”.

my response: We only believe (or are supposed to) what the Word tells us.  We are to pray for the lost not hate them.  We are to try and win them to Christ.

you sad: Additionally, as you “understand it” that RADICAL CHRISTIANS “love everyone” you are sadly mistaken.  They hate, jews, atheists, other christians, muslims, buddists….just about everyone.

my response: Am I to think you are dillusional? Or extremely misinformed? I think what you should have said was “those who CLAIM to be Christian and hate, are liars and hypocrites” that would be accurate.

you said: I very definitely have read this account.  Now can you prove the bible as the WORD OF GOD or only as the WORDS OF MAN?

my response: You have challenged the Word of God and I think I deserve your proof proving otherwise.

you said:  And how is it that the “old testament” illustrates a “god of vengeance” whereas the “new testament” illustrates a “god of love”?  In this regard, the bible refutes itself.

my response: You are in error.  The old testament is a recording of God’s dealing with mankind at that time period.  If you study carefully, you will find His love, mercy, compassion, and yes judgement after much longsuffering. The God of love that you see in the new testament was always a God of love.  The new testament is the fulfillment or the story of what He said would take place since the fall of Adam and Eve in the garden.  One of the prophesys.  It’s like the rest of the story of God and mankind.

you said:  Also, are you claiming this to be a religious war?  If so…. why then they involvement of one secular nation (Iraq) with another secular nation (the US)?

my response: Iraq is not considered secular and neither is the U.S. SUPPOSED TO BE. However the infanticide that we are commiting far exceeds the atrocities you speak of abroad.

Iraq is Ishmael.  Ishmeal is loved of God.  All are.  But not all are His children.  Not by His choice, but theirs.  Those who have rejected His son as the necessary sacrifice to take away the stain of the original sin are rejected by Him.  It has to be this way.  Imperfection cannot inherit perfection.  We would have to be perfect and that is impossible since we are born from a blemished seed Adam.  Jesus became the second Adam.  He gave his blood as that payment for sin and any and all who wish, can obtain forgiveness for it.  This plan was in place from the beginning.  The harshness you see in the old testament is not borne of God, but sin.  The role God plays in the old testament is the role of a God over a people who constantly rebelled against His love and protection.  When destruction came, it was because that was the only thing left for Him to do.

I commented on your entire first post in detail and went over the word limit and when I pressed go to previous page: GONE. 

I’m too depressed to go back and do it all over so I’m moving on to your second post.  I’ll do the first post response again later. 

you said: Moslems didn’t create their own god.  “Allah” is merely Arabic for “The Lord”, or idiomatically translated, “God”—same god you as a Christian and me, were I not Agnostic, worship.  Same one. Same patriarchs and matriarchs.

my response: When I said they created their own God, I mean that they changed the one they claim to believe in.

you said: Moslems are supposed to therefore consider Christians and Jews as “incomplete” Moslems because neither has accepted Mohammed as God’s last and greatest prophet.  They are therefore the “people of the Scripture”.  But Moslems accept Jesus as a prophet.

my response: Herein lies the hypocricy.  They claim Mohammed as God’s last and greatest prophet.  But they accept Jesus as a prophet.
One of the qualifications for a prophet to be considered a true prophet, is for those things that they teach or prophesy come true.  How then can they hold he is a prophet and then say He is a liar?  For they deny what he prophesied and taught and did not believe Him and yet they claime he was a prophet.  Do you see that they cannot do both? And yet they do?

you said: Fanatic Moslems are like fanatic Christians and fanatic Jews. They have “The Truth” and everyone else is either a pagan, heathen or heretic.  The main Moslem fanatics hate the Iranians as much as they hate Christians and Jews because most Iranian Moslems are Shi’ia, not Sunni, therefore HERETICS!

my response: Just because they have many truths out there doesn’t mean there isn’t a particular one that links to a true God.  It’s like asking ten people the same question and all answers are different.  If the question that is asked is: ‘what is truth’, should we conclude that there must be no truth since there were ten different answers?  Or perhaps we should consider that it is the truth as they know it and perceive it.  Should we conclude then that there is not a complete and perfect truth because we have observed in mankind (some highly respected) various degrees of truth?

you said: Before you go around making blanket statements about Moslems it’s best to actually do a little research on them.

my response: I cannot judge the hearts of any muslim.  It is only the religion I speak of and its teachings.  I am aware that many, maybe even most do not faithfully adhere to what they claim to believe.

Christian:

Moslems didn’t create their own god.  “Allah” is merely Arabic for “The Lord”, or idiomatically translated, “God”—same god you as a Christian and me, were I not Agnostic, worship.  Same one. Same patriarchs and matriarchs.

Moslems are supposed to therefore consider Christians and Jews as “incomplete” Moslems because neither has accepted Mohammed as God’s last and greatest prophet.  They are therefore the “people of the Scripture”.  But Moslems accept Jesus as a prophet.

Fanatic Moslems are like fanatic Christians and fanatic Jews. They have “The Truth” and everyone else is either a pagan, heathen or heretic.  The main Moslem fanatics hate the Iranians as much as they hate Christians and Jews because most Iranian Moslems are Shi’ia, not Sunni, therefore HERETICS!

Before you go around making blanket statements about Moslems it’s best to actually do a little research on them.

Re: christian
(part 2)

You: ” They hate everyone that isn’t muslim.  Maybe hate isn’t the appropriate term.  They believe it is an abomination to not be muslim.  They created their own bible and god to back this up. 

Perhaps we are both wrong on our assumptions.  Because as I understand it, radical Christians love everyone.”

Me:  Again…  RADICAL Christians ALSO believe it to be an “abomination to not be christian”.  Additionally, as you “understand it” that RADICAL CHRISTIANS “love everyone” you are sadly mistaken.  They hate, jews, atheists, other christians, muslims, buddists….just about everyone.

You: “We are allies with Israel.  Israel is their sworn enemy as the Bible prophesied when Ishmael was born.  Abraham had conceived a son by his wife’s handmaid after growing impatient with God to give his wife Sarah a son.  Therefore Ishmael was Abrahams firstborn, but not the firstborn by God’s hand.  Sarah did conceive a son, Isaac, and it was to this seed the everlasting covenant with God was established.  You can read the account in Genesis 16.”

I very definitely have read this account.  Now can you prove the bible as the WORD OF GOD or only as the WORDS OF MAN?  And how is it that the “old testament” illustrates a “god of vengeance” whereas the “new testament” illustrates a “god of love”?  In this regard, the bible refutes itself.  Also, are you claiming this to be a religious war?  If so…. why then they involvement of one secular nation (Iraq) with another secular nation (the US)?

Re: christian
(part 1)
You:  “That Sadam was proven to be dishonest in past dealings that he violates agreements that he makes with us that he is aiding and helping terrorist groups and after the attack on us, we were pretty damned scared at that point that they weren’t finished with us yet.”

From Dissident Voice: “In fact, Saddam is no better or worse than any number of dictators past or present. General Augusto Pinochet, Ferdinand Marcos, General Suharto, Anastasio Somoza, Pol Pot—these are a few of the bloody dictators responsible for the death of literally millions of people (Pol Pot was responsible for the slaughter of 1.5 million people, Suharto 500,000 or more). These are dictators the United States either supported directly or indirectly over the years. In general, the American people know nothing about these sadists and murderous thugs or how their government supported them.

If Saddam is indeed “a piece of trash,” as Powell claims, it is an indisputable fact that he is trash created by the United States. Saddam was almost entirely a Frankenstein creation of the CIA. This is a fact backed up by more than one US government official and documented in several books.

And yet, if you were to ask the average American if he or she finds it possible Saddam Hussein was groomed, financed, and supported by the CIA beginning with president John F. Kennedy—who signed off on plan to overthrow the government of Iraq in 1963—chances are they wouldn’t believe it.”

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Articles7/Nimmo_Saddam-CIA.htm

Me:  Do you fall into this category?  Are you truly aware of Saddam’s history as you suppose…?

You: “The president took action and everybody was glad he did.  Were we feeling sorry for Sadam after knowing what kind of cruel dictator he was…no.

Me: NO. Everyone was NOT glad he did....Bush attempted to link Al Qaeda with Iraq, as yet there is NO qualifiable PROOF of this.  I WAS NOT GLAD.  I WAS NOT SCARED.  I was waiting for some shred of evidence of Bush’s claims….. I’m still waiting.

You: “Were we sorry that the Iraq people were stuck under him? Yes.  If you can’t see what sort of a threat he was, then you need to research Sadams dealings with the USA.  When you do, you will wonder why in the hell we waited so long and were so nice.  I’m not saying it couldn’t have been carried out differently.  And I’m not sure if we had it would have made a difference.”

From Wikipedia:
“Saddam saw himself as a social revolutionary and a modernizer, following the Nasser model. To the consternation of Islamic conservatives, his government gave women added freedoms and offered them high-level government and industry jobs. Saddam also created a Western-style legal system, making Iraq the only country in the Persian Gulf region not ruled according to traditional Islamic law (Sharia). Saddam abolished the Sharia law courts, except for personal injury claims.

Domestic conflict impeded Saddam’s modernizing projects. Iraqi society is divided along lines of language, religion and ethnicity; Saddam’s government rested on the support of the 20% minority of largely working class, peasant, and lower middle class Sunnis, continuing a pattern that dates back at least to the British colonial authority’s reliance on them as administrators.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein

Me:  No..No…and NO!  I have never wondered why we “waited so long” as you suppose.  President Bush invaded a country….ILLEGALLY, who posed no threat to the United States whatsoever.  Bush and his corporate lying flunkies wanted Iraq’s oil and USED the US Armed Forces to attempt to get it.  Cheney’s Halliburton made off with billions in NO-BID CONTRACTS, crooks… the lot of them.

Leefler, yea, sorry about that.  Not sure how to make things appear differently to set things apart.  I’ll have to use words (bother)so as not to appear insane.

Thanks for the tip.

Christian,

You may want to try writing in the third person, it would clear up who you are talking to? It may be a form of solipsism? Referencing comments to yourself could be a novel idea, though I find it questioning in the sanity department.  Reminds me of posting large posts without using paragraphs or all in caps.

Re: christian

Your comment: “Some believe in the war for sincere reasons.  The reasons put forth to the American people.”

What was “the reason” put forth to the American people…?

That Sadam was proven to be dishonest in past dealings that he violates agreements that he makes with us that he is aiding and helping terrorist groups and after the attack on us, we were pretty damned scared at that point that they weren’t finished with us yet.  The president took action and everybody was glad he did.  Were we feeling sorry for Sadam after knowing what kind of cruel dictator he was…no.  Were we sorry that the Iraq people were stuck under him? Yes.  If you can’t see what sort of a threat he was, then you need to research Sadams dealings with the USA.  When you do, you will wonder why in the hell we waited so long and were so nice.  I’m not saying it couldn’t have been carried out differently.  And I’m not sure if we had it would have made a difference.

And again, I put forth this question to you as I have to PT and have not gotten a response: what would you have done in his position?

Also, Your comment: “One thing is certain.  The majority of the muslim world hates America.”

Can you direct me to the statistics which prove this?

We are allies with Israel.  Israel is their sworn enemy as the Bible prophesied when Ishmael was born.  Abraham had conceived a son by his wife’s handmaid after growing impatient with God to give his wife Sarah a son.  Therefore Ishmael was Abrahams firstborn, but not the firstborn by God’s hand.  Sarah did conceive a son, Isaac, and it was to this seed the everlasting covenant with God was established.  You can read the account in Genesis 16. 

But what about Ishmael, the technically firstborn? It was prophesied that there would be much fighting from and toward Ishmael.  Ishmael, whose decendants makeup the vast middleast, still hold to this day that not the seed of Isaac, but the seed of Ishmael, the actual firstborn, was the covenant established with God.  They believe that they are the rightful heirs of the Holy Land, and this is why they are always fighting over it.  But God did bless Ishmael however, for He loved him too “and twelve princes shall he beget” and he will become a mighty people. 

you said: The way I understood it was that RADICAL muslim groups hate the US and just about everyone else, much the same way RADICAL christians hate everyone.

They hate everyone that isn’t muslim.  Maybe hate isn’t the appropriate term.  They believe it is an abomination to not be muslim.  They created their own bible and god to back this up. 

Perhaps we are both wrong on our assumptions.  Because as I understand it, radical Christians love everyone.

I feel confident that the majority of the Iraqi People hate the US GOVERNMENT(mainly because we’re slaughtering them), this also does not necessarily translate as hating the American People.

I hope this to be true and that I am wrong. 

I know I didn’t hate the Iraqi People when my country invaded them, in fact I was stricken with grief.

And to this comment I would pose the question once again:  As the President, the protector of the United States of America and her people, what would you have done after the attack, knowing that a third attack could well be likely?

Madness such as this, is accepted through indoctrination by the mad, so saneness is considered really to be madness.

Re: christian

Your comment: “Some believe in the war for sincere reasons.  The reasons put forth to the American people.”

What was “the reason” put forth to the American people…?

Also, Your comment: “One thing is certain.  The majority of the muslim world hates America.”

Can you direct me to the statistics which prove this?

The way I understood it was that RADICAL muslim groups hate the US and just about everyone else, much the same way RADICAL christians hate everyone.  I feel confident that the majority of the Iraqi People hate the US GOVERNMENT(mainly because we’re slaughtering them), this also does not necessarily translate as hating the American People.  I know I didn’t hate the Iraqi People when my country invaded them, in fact I was stricken with grief.

Peter, you’re confusing an ally with a permanent ally.  There are no permanent allies, only permanent interests.

Christian:

I think you are wrong on one point.  I think, if we weren’t messing around in Iraq, threatening Iran, and, under former President Botch, botching up the Israel/Palestine conflict, most of the Moslem world would either not really give a rat’s butt about us, or would look at us as a GOOD thing.

I think the numbers of Moslems who actively hate Christians, Jews and other non-Moslems is actually very small, but very influential.  Most Moslems are like everybody else: They want to live in peace and prosper, then see their children live that way.  And maybe have a little fun along the way. I’ve worked and been friends with people from around the world and that’s pretty much how people I know think.

Yeah, much of the Arab world today is filled with racist propaganda.  But change the political landscape and, like “1984”, the agit-prop will change on a dime. Besides, NO people who are prosperous and safe tolerate their leaders dragging them into war.  They have to be scared into it, always, every single time. They have to fear a threat.  No threat, no fear, no war!

Simple:  I would cease the imperialist adventurism.

Other people’s resources belong to them.  They’re not for stealing.

PT you know what Bush did wrong and why he did what he did and that he should be punished.

But are you just one of those that sings about the problems and the people behind them but have no solution?

Go ahead and put yourself in the presidents position and tell me…WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE?

The lying, imperialist Bush needs to be brought to justice—his apologists notwithstanding.  The blood of the Iraqi, Lebanese, Palestinian, and American peoples is dripping from his mouth.

To be sure the diversity of commitment for and against the war in Iraq is diverse.
Some believe in the war for sincere reasons.  The reasons put forth to the American people.

Others pretend to believe in the cause put forth when really they have hidden agendas.

Others do not believe in the cause put forth because they do not appreciate giving money for a reason that doesn’t directly benefit them.

One thing is certain.  The majority of the muslim world hates America.  For many reasons.  If we only minded our own business, they would hate us for religious reasons…of which they base their entire lives around.  This was all bound to come.  The way it came can be debated till the end of our time and probably will be.  But the bottom line is this…If you were the president of the USA when the attack on U.S. soil occurred and you knew that all your muslim nations wanted us dead and were moving up their plans to accomplish this…what would you have done???

As a common citizen of the United States of Americal, I would like to forget about the reasons that led us to this and whether or not we brought it upon ourselves, (which I’m sure we have)and deal with the reality now.  We are a number one target of the vast muslim society, lovers of Israel whom they hate, and are now faced with thousands of dead at your feet by terrorists attacks.  What do you do?  You no doubt begin to try and decide which of this terrorists harboring countries is responsible or linked.  Which do you pick?  What do YOU do?

Where did the bigots go please?  Guess they are working harder to blame this on the Zionists then 911 and UFO anal probes.  You can bet they are working on it though. Sprained bigot brains all over TD have become regular Homily mantras, overloaded bigot brains spewed on every post, you cannot read TD posts with out seen them.

So let’s see if we get this. Iran is our enemy, because it is ruled by Islamic fanatics. But in Iran, women are allowed to dress is western styles, typically covering their hair with a hijab (modest scarf).

Saudi Arabia is our ally. There, women have to be covered head to toe, despite the unbelievable daytime heat that makes Phoenix, AZ (where I live) seem like Alaska. Saudi Arabia is ruled by Islamic fanatics, too. In fact, almost all the alleged 9-11 attackers came from Saudi Arabia. None of them came from Iran.

Saudi Arabia GOOOOD. Iran Baaaaad.

Four legs good! Two legs baaaad!

Saleema,

This poor woman’s situation is almost unbelievable to any decent person whether they’re Moslem, Jewish, Christian or do not believe in any god. Perhaps King Abdullah will find the courage to intervene in her sentence, perhaps not though it’s reported that he “is trying to undermine the Islamic hardliners.” At the very least, this will make people question some of the extremities to which any religion can lead (not just Islam, but as Islamic law governs all aspects of life it’s harder to resist). As Ib’n Rush’d said, “There is no tyranny like the tyranny of priests.”) Separating church and state and keeping them that way is an ongoing battle, in this country as elsewhere.

Inherit the Wind, re your March ll & 12 posts: Right. And Right Again.

Peter, you just conceded my point:  We’re allied with the Saudi dictatorship.  In fact, we were allied with Saudi Arabia against Iraq.

“But the purpose that they claim it is about is the reason our soldiers fight”

Nonsense.  The soldiers (mostly poor and working class) don’t have a choice.  In fact, those who resisted the imperialist misadventure of the lying Bush were tossed in the brig.

“At least the blood shed in the war in Iraq had AT LEAST A SLIVER of purpose whether or not people believe in the intention or not.”

Yeah, the purpose was killing for oil.

Maybe that was their personal underlying purpose P.T. and they will be judged for that.  But the purpose that they claim it is about is the reason our soldiers fight and the reason good people stand behind the cause.  Whether or not those who led the seemingly good cause really only have oil on their mind is irrelevent.  God has used many ungodly men to both enslave and liberate his people when it was necessary.

“At least the blood shed in the war in Iraq had AT LEAST A SLIVER of purpose whether or not people believe in the intention or not.”

Yeah, the purpose was killing for oil.

Since when does negative news concerning other countries mean we think we’re better?  The same people that aired the story of the 75 year old woman aired all the negative stuff about the USA!

You guys have wasted all this time bashing the USA as though the ones who covered the article had any connections with those responsible for the war!

And it’s mighty damn funny that all you who seem SO informed about what is JUST and RIGHTEOUS, should neglect to mention the slaughter of full grown babies in a mother’s womb or half way out as the NUMBER ONE disgusting atrocity ever committed by a SO CALLED civilized nation. 

What they do to their women in no way compares what we do to our own flesh and blood.  AND WE MAKE ALL OF AMERICA TO PAY FOR THE EXPENSE OF IT!!!!

Talk about unjustice.  But all I hear is the war in Iraq being unjust.  At least the blood shed in the war in Iraq had AT LEAST A SLIVER of purpose whether or not people believe in the intention or not.  The murder of the real innocent DOESN’T EVEN GET MENTIONED!!
Go home and purge your soul so that you are fit to discern true righteousness from pretend.

“The USA is not an ally of Saudi Arabia or any other Arab country.”

Your ignorance is appalling.  Click on http://www.fas.org/asmp/profiles/saudi_arabia.htm

Outragious,

Most posters on TD, know how the wheels of justice have more than one spoke missing here in the good old imperial USA.  It just seems even the Saudi’s could change their stance, instead of 40 lashes, and 3 years in jail, they could stone her to death and make it a commnity event, or they could even hire the Swedish Chimp to throw the rocks.  On the other hand because she is 75 they feel she would not run very fast ,so what’s the entertainment in that.

Maybe things have been real slow down at the professional lashers unionon hall, so they are just drumming up some business, plus they have some new equpment they want to try out..

Here’s how all of us can start fighting this problem TODAY from home… buy less gasoline! That’s right, do whatever you have to to buy less gasoline and countries like Saudi Arabia will have to invest more in their people. Right now all they have to do is dig a hole in the ground and money comes pouring out of it. If the USA (the largest client of these petro-taterships) reduced their revenue by consuming less of their petrolium they would have to depend more on their citizens…. especially their women! So protect our country, save the planet, and rescue their women all at the same time!

Re: Leefeller

Your comment: “So we should discuss 3 strikes and ignore women’s rights around the world, sounds like a plan. Nice Saudis!

Sexism is not a problem in the minds of sexists, how about those three strikes?”

My comment: “But that doesn’t negate how draconian our laws are.  Both are ridiculous.”

You are simply the pot calling the kettle black.  Do you honestly believe that they would hold our opinion in high esteem, when we don’t straighten out our own shit?

Exceptionalism is not exceptionalism in the eyes of the exceptionalist.

sharia law is just plain barbaric and fits with islamists so well that it would be great if they could just all get on their own little island and leave the rest of the World alone. Must be a real kick for the islamic judge to just think up such stupid charges for a 77 year old woman. Sick violent punks, so ignorant they continue to fall for the fraud mohammed through over them 1400 years ago. Don’t forget to get you copy of the 1400 year old mein kaumph and then just get out there and spread the alleged religion, no matter what it takes, beat them, threaten them, maim them, kill them, whatever it’s all good with mohatman, the leader, the wonderboy who’s the man? mohotmed! Let’s hear it for mohatmed! Yeah, got it.

Ok-Doe-K,

Let’s quite posting on this article about this article, because we have our own problems, which are worse than 40 lashes and three years in prison for a 75 year old lady being forced to wear a bee keeper suite who broke the law letting unrelated delivery men in her house, to deliver a grand piano.  They should have left it on the door step for her 90 year old husband and the other 20 wives of the harem to drag it in.

So we should discuss 3 strikes and ignore women’s rights around the world, sounds like a plan. Nice Saudis!

Sexism is not a problem in the minds of sexists, how about those three strikes?

“Of course this is inappropriate treatment.” 

“My point is the USA is a country of mass murderers and hypocrites that has no right to tell others how to behave until it changes its own behavior.”

It’s more than “inappropriate” treatment.  As for the US, I don’t speak for it, only for myself.  And I don’t expect to see much in the way of criticism from the US government of an ally such as the appalling Saudi dictatorship.  That would be too unhypocritical.  Criticism is mostly reserved for enemies.

Re: Lefeller

Your comment: “some of you believe dark ages laws are good, but our laws are the problem.  I think I get it!”

Where do you see anyone endorsing dark ages laws, I reread the comments and the only one even suggesting anything remotely like that, was you.  Although it is obvious you were only attempting to highlight the obsurdity of the Saudi law, sure…I get it.

But that doesn’t negate how draconian our laws are.  Both are ridiculous.

Are you saying life imprisionment for minor infractions isn’t just as cruel?

http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php

Be sure to check out the left side-bar story ” LEAP Statement on New White House Drug Czar”  former Seattle Police Chief Norm Stamper is in the Fox News video in the right side bar if you’re interested in who he is, of course there are links in the “LEAP statement” also.

Peter, I opposed the Iraq War.  You support human rights in some places at some times.  Beating elderly women is no big deal to you.  You are a FRAUD !

Should have Bombed the Shit out of them and all their lil’ subsidiary countries!
Which Palm Island has Bin Laden been living the life of luxury on? maybe we should ask McCain since he claims to know ‘how to catch Bin laden’...Been ther for Drinks,Songbird? Dropping off some more boots and anthrax for those ‘Freedom fighters’?
Afghanistan was nothing more than a foot inthe door to seize more oil rich lands for the Saudi’s. silver spooned Binny was bedfellows with the Repugs during the ‘80’s, same as Saddam. Repugs out to kill any living connections to their crimes against humanity? Reason mcCain ‘KNEW’ within days that the Anthrax ‘came from Saddam’- Deliver it yourself in the ‘80’s Johnny boy? After you dropped off the boots and funds to that fledgling AlQada Group fighting the USSR?
afghanistan was not only just a College Campus for the Saudi elites kids to build Resumes and glory stories, it was the perfect place to begin Blood for oil invasions for their Ruling class.Was 9/11 a Warning shot over our bow by the saudi’s we’d better agree to be their military might for more Oil conquests- or just a Rouse to the Two Oilmen in the WH cooked up to Aid their huggin’ & Kissin’ OPEC bedfellows.
Although blowing the Shit out of the OPEC country’s Palaces (and ‘Royals’)would bring me great Joy- We need only make that black shit coming out of their ground not worth the price of sludge.Only resource left to sell for their ruling class would be sand.Then let their people take revenge on them for their abuses of power- Pound of flesh you say, or their heads!The OPEC countries have neglected and oppresed their people and used US as their scapegoats!By making Oil Worthless, we will level the playing field for THEIR people too.

Saudi Arabia is the real home of fanaticism in the ME. I opposed the “war” in Iraq, but would have supported an invasion of Saudi Arabia. This is one of the most repressive countries on Earth. America cannot claim to despise injutice as long as it supports regimes such as Saudi Arabia.

cyrena, March 12 at 4:09 am #

(and, that’s probably why a lot of folks aren’t really that ‘aware’ of it.)
***************************************************

Laws get hollered in because people stomp around saying “There oughta be a law!” like insane Homer Simpsons—and some opportunistic politician gets it in—whether it’s the Rockefeller Drug Laws in New York or Prop 8 in California.

There’s two ways to eliminate shades of gray in Law: The usual and wrong way, and the right way.
The wrong way is the kind of crap cy points out—thoughtless broad-brush laws.

The RIGHT way is clearly defining ameliorating and aggravating circumstances based on reality.  But that requires reams and reams of detail and lawyers thrive on loop-hole fishing in that.

But there’s even the insane law that defines crack as 10x more a crime than crystal coke when they are chemically the same thing—and the courts let it stand.  Why? Crack is far more frequent in ghettos and crystal is the province of the wealthy.

But wealth has LONG bought more justice than poverty.  Phil Ochs sang about it “Iron Lady” in 1964 “and a rich man never died upon The Chair”.

These knee-jerk anti-American laws are all thanks to the Right—the GOP, Ronald Reagan and our old friends, the Religious Fanatic Right.

Over 25 years ago there was a documentary on a Saudi princess who violated some minor law—maybe accused of adultery—and was publicly beheaded—it was called “Death of a Princess”.  Wahabists rule in Saudi—they are the SAME people who in the Taliban demand that women walk around as blue cones and, if, unable to see and she trips and an ankle is revealed, they beat her.  Women are still property there, not human.  They are engines of reproduction, housekeeping and male satisfaction.  And those that want to preserve that will stop at nothing.

So a country which lives in the dark ages, some of you believe dark ages laws are good, but our laws are the problem.  I think I get it!

That 75 year old bitch, knows the laws, and needs to pay her crime, (to the law, society, men, the delivery men?, the clay feet of religion?)  maybe 40 lashes is not enough, she should have 5 years in jail, so when she gets out at 80, the numbers are more efficient and 80 is better than 78 because I like it better. When she gets out, she will know so well not to defile the laws of the land, anyway she is just a woman.  Now if she was a horse this would be a different story.

Letting in non related delivery men is a minor crime, so it makes sense now, only 40 lashes and 3 years!  We should have such laws like this here, in the good old USA. no 3 strikes for her. Wonder what they do to men who let in unrelated delivery women?

By Outraged, March 12 at 2:41 am
Re: Margaret Currey
Your comment: “Their laws do not see any shades of gray it is the letter of the law that must be obayed never mind that she knew them and they were only delivering bread.”
Neither do many of ours…. what would you call “zero tolerence” laws.  In some states, possession of marijuana is a felony, get caught three times and the “three strikes and you’re out law” kicks in.  Is this any less harsh?  I guesstimate that there are many in this type of situation who would rather a beating.  Not because they think it “okay” but because it’s less cruel.
~*~*~
Outraged,
Thanks so very much for pointing this out, (how equally draconian our our legal structure is and actually has been for a long while, specifically in terms of how unequally these draconian laws are applied).

I suspect that a lot of us are simply unaware of these laws and how incredibly WITHOUT any shades of gray they are, except in terms of who these laws are applied to…which portions of the population that is.
But in all fairness to whomever may NOT be aware of this taking place here, it just isn’t allowed to surface in the mainstream media. The number of people warehoused for life on the ‘three strike’ law is absolutely outrageous and in California, the number of life-time 3 strikers include what a large percentage whose ‘3 strikes’ included misdomeaners, not felonies. It didn’t matter what the ‘crime’ was, from possession of marijuana to running a traffic stop. In California this ‘3 strike’ thing has become a project of ethnic cleansing if ya ask me.

And I’m CERTAINLY not opposed to actually using the Judicial System to prosecute and punish real criminals, which is why this farce of a police state based on draconian practices and legislation like the 3 –strike law make me think I’m living in some sort of nightmare or something.

(and, that’s probably why a lot of folks aren’t really that ‘aware’ of it.)

“After all the murders and war crimes the US committed during the Bush years, it would be ridiculous for criticizing Saudi Arabia for poorly treating one woman.”

If you were the one being beaten, you would sing a different tune.

Re: Margaret Currey

Your comment: “Their laws do not see any shades of gray it is the letter of the law that must be obayed never mind that she knew them and they were only delivering bread.”

Neither do many of ours…. what would you call “zero tolerence” laws.  In some states, possession of marijuana is a felony, get caught three times and the “three strikes and you’re out law” kicks in.  Is this any less harsh?  I guesstimate that there are many in this type of situation who would rather a beating.  Not because they think it “okay” but because it’s less cruel.

By Inherit The Wind, March 11 at 11:01 pm #

Could be worse..she could be in Israel where they would slowly dismember her and then eat her…at least according to most of the posters here.

~*~*~

Inherit..

STOP!!!

The regime will at times back down if there is enough of an international ruckus.  That’s where we come in.  Let the Saudi embassy and the U.N. ambassador know what you think.

This is interesting…

“n a surprising move, King Abdullah appointed last month the first woman to a ministerial post. Norah al-Fayez was elevated to the new post of deputy minister of women’s education.

The reform might look insignificant in a region where women have already reached top governmental positions.

But many observers say that the royal family has so far been unable to push social reforms because it needs to win the favor of the ultraconservative religious police to protect its rule amid continuing threats from Al Qaeda.

Still, King Abdullah is bidding to undermine Islamic hard-liners.

He recently dismissed a leading fundamentalist cleric and the head of the kingdom’s religious police, Sheik Ibrahim Ghaith.”

~*~*

Cynics will of course blow this off as nothing, but in reality, there’s every reason to believe that the sentence may not be carried out. I don’t know that, but it seems like Abdullah might be moving in such a direction, if only because he HAS to undermine the extremists.

Let’s see what Hillary has to say about it—nothing?  I guess that if dropping white phosphorus on folks doesn’t bother her, this won’t either.  The thing one has to remember about liberals is that they support human rights in some places at some times.  It is simply a matter of tactical opportunism.

Could be worse..she could be in Israel where they would slowly dismember her and then eat her…at least according to most of the posters here.

I feel the compassion,  of course the delivery men told everyone about it because she was such a lousy tipper. Fink society?  Seems sexist to me, but of course it is not sexist.

Nice to know the Saudis have been promoting blasphemy laws in the U.N. which would make it a crime for people in other nations to criticize the righteous religions of the world.

Something like, anyone who does not agree is a Heretic,  or is it Infidel?