Leefeller, good observation. I do indeed define religion broadly, and I don’t assume atheism means “non-spiritual”. An atheist might disagree, and I would respect that.

Even for a non-spiritual atheist, the question is the same: what will form the social cohesion among people and how will it be persisted without some kind of institution?

Look, the (arguably) most liberal institution in America today is the educational system, but it does such a poor job of instilling a common bond among kids that even liberals criticize it. I think one would be hard pressed to say schools are churning out citizens with shared values and a common bond, and schools don’t even have to deal with religion at all!

I maintain that unless we liberals do a LOT better at building things to persist values and (yes) spirituality—including atheists—we’re either going to create anarchy if we “succeed” or we’ll forever be chasing conservatives trying to “convert” them into paying attention to our values and principles and priorities and what-nots.

I’m talking about wiping conservatism from the face of the earth once and for all.

Churches are a great institution for persisting a common bond. They’re built. They’re varied in their creeds. They’re fundamentally liberal in ideology. Rather than cheer the demise of churches, I think we should take them over. Even further, I think we have to.

You may disavow Jesus Christ, but the message attributed to him is no more easily realized today than it was then. Love. Faith. Hope. The liberal truth of equality, the unalienable right to life and liberty, to dignity, to the virtue of reason and conscience.

Churches are where we celebrate that. Where we teach that and wonder about that and promote that. In doing that, we form a real community in a place you can walk to. And bring the kids.

P.S. Great quote by Napoleon. He also said: “I do not see in religion the mystery of the Incarnation, but the mystery of the social order.” He recognized the essential role of the institution in uniting France. After the Concordat of 1801, the Roman Catholic church declared that military service was a sacred duty…. and it worked to establish that as the social norm.

Fiftygigs, You make some good points. Destroying all the churches, mosques, synagogues would not accomplish a single thing (though the goons trashing them might enjoy doing it.) And saying that all religious people are worthless or wicked is on the face of it untrue because it’s unlikely that there is a single person posting on this website who could say with certainty that know no church-going individuals who have qualities they admire. It boils down to the question of tolerance and the ability to separate religion from the state and its civil and criminal laws.

Unfortunately, religion presents one of the handiest—though not the only—tool enabling and explaining all sorts of hideous acts for which it would otherwise would be harder to garner support. If Queen Isabella had tried to pull off the last and most brutal phases of the Reconquista as well as the Spanish Inquisition by saying she needed to protect Ferdinand, whose enormous gambling debts were bankrupting the Crown and huge infusions of money were needed to keep the Royals happy and afloat, it’s not likely most Spaniards would have supported those policies. (Even the Pope tried and failed to halt the Spanish branch of the Inquisition for its extreme brutality and distorted motives).

But it’s also true that atheists—Stalin for one—had no problems exterminating entire ethnic groups of people. Even the “good” guys, Ortega’s Marxist revolutionaries in Nicaragua, massacred an entire indigenous group for opposing the revolution. 

In modern times, religion gets a bad rap when its followers try to enforce their beliefs on people not interested in them. In this country, in our time, it’s reaching a point that non-believers are turning on believers in reaction, and voting one’s conscience is taking on a new meaning in some people’s discourse. In countries abroad, issues of land, resources, rights and security are increasingly hard to negotiate sanely because religion changes the issue, the tone and the tenor of resulting behavior, rarely for the better.

Humanism appeals to many people seeking a center and a standard. It’s enough for me, but I don’t hold all religious people in contempt.

fiftygigs, stated:

“The point I’m making here is that religious institutions—the institution of ANY spiritual practice or set of practices—is vital to a thriving society, in my opinion”.  Why so? 

Not defending “Ism’s” but defending religion, sounds like a contradiction? Though Atheism may not be a religion?

Napoleon, made the statement: (sic), “Without religion,  the masses would overtake and kill the wealthy”.  A comment, for or against religion depending on were one is taking in the view?

Sepharad, thank you for an informative posting. The following isn’t directed at you personally. I’d like to discuss religion and science more, and I hope we can later. But I do want to push my point again, since I think it’s been largely ignored in subsequent comments.

As I’ve stated, I’m not defending any “ism” or creed. Believe what you want. I’m liberal.

Regarding some points raised about religion, I do disagree with those who brush broadly offering selective historical events as being the “fault of” or “caused by” religion. Some comments seem poised to claim that Jesus’ teaching of love “caused” the Roman army to crucify him. There’s a perverse logic to that, however I do not agree that the world would be Eden if only the Bible had never been written or found.

Again, I’m not arguing the fact that God in the hands of man can cause great evil. I’m simply saying there’s a whole list of evil acts that were certainly not caused by religion. I also suggest “suffering” is not eradicated by the elimination of religion. I just don’t think the trend indicated by the above news article is necessarily good.

Why? I dispute the simpleminded rhetoric that people who follow organized religion—which I don’t—are simpleminded. Having had my fill of religious kooks and crooks in my life, I can also admit that the “church going” people I’ve known rank among the finest people I’ve met. They are serious in their pursuit, kind, reasonable, often very liberal in their thinking, and the fact that they subscribe to a religious dogma does not discredit them any more than subscribing to liberalism or progressiveness as a political dogma discredits us.

The problem with religious institutions in America is that they’ve diverged into conservatism, like government and financial institutions, and have lost their liberal core. But that’s another topic.

The point I’m making here is that religious institutions—the institution of ANY spiritual practice or set of practices—is vital to a thriving society, in my opinion.

The political analogy is valid. We can have an America where everybody memorizes the Constitution, but that in itself doesn’t make for united states.

By inference, I’m contending that liberals have done a poor job in organizing and institutionalizing a foundation for this country, based on our beliefs. Part of the fault is our dogma, which tends to be adverse to that. We do a great job pontificating about right and wrong, but we’ve avoided building the institutional structures that will make our beliefs embedded in this society as a way of life.

Instead, we call government (even the Obama administration) simply “more of the same”, leaving that institution to be manned by conservatives. Churches? Man, we can list problems with THAT going back to the Spanish Inquisition, and we leave THAT institution to be run ... by conservatives. Money? The root of all evil. Just gimme sex, drugs, and rock n roll, baby. And who’s running THOSE institutions? Conservatives.

So, is it indeed the premise that destroying churches in America is going to lead to enlightenment throughout this society?

People call ME simpleminded.

Leefeller:

Indeed.

Maitreya,

“Most human misery is artificially created and maintained by the least-evolved and least-imaginative humans among us”. 

Religion does seem to provide all the gear and blinders needed to support the above comment.

BELIEF is a function of the EGO;
KNOWLEDGE is a function of the TRUE SELF.

All religions are based on superstitious beliefs manufactured to mitigate our fears of death and address our frustrated hopes and dreams for a better world than the one we inhabit (“Afterlife”). Like it or not, humans are a fantasy-driven species. The more highly we develop our imaginations (grounded in a universal desire for health, happiness, and justice for all creatures), the better our chances for making this planet the paradise it can be. Our one and only chance for ‘Paradise’ is right here under our feet. This Earth can be a Heaven or a Hell. The choice is ours. Do we wish to cultivate LOVE? -Or FEAR? Most human misery is artificially created and maintained by the least-evolved and least-imaginative humans among us.  As more and more people evolve beyond superstition and greed, the world will begin to see this reality, and true civilization will then begin. -No religion necessary.

Just noticed this thread; better late than never.

Folktruther, it’s good to hear a kind word for Clio, though what she offers isn’t “belief” in anything except the record of what has been written down, which sometimes helps with the heavy lifting of what, then, might reasonably expected to come of the past, or at least from our understanding of it.

Fiftygigs, it isn’t being cynical or trashing religion to realize it has caused and continues to cause a great deal of suffering. Humans are uniquely gifted at causing themselves a great deal of suffering out of nearly anything at hand—atheism, agnosticism, religion, racism etc etc. The humanist tradition is the only “ism” I’ve encountered that seems to cause more good than harm. It’s completely separate from religion or politics, but can be used to devise an ethical system and principles under which you can engage the world from nearly any profession or perspective. It has always interested me that one of the greatest thinkers in the Jewish tradition, philosopher and physician and rabbi [teacher] Moses Maimonides, spent his life wrestling with the dilemma of whether there was a God or not, but in all his travels and in all his writings he operated and wrote from the point of view of a humanist even when addressing religious issues, as he often did. His “Guide for the Perplexed” is an attempt to reconcile religion with science—which he never did to his own satisfaction, though his friend and fellow philosopher/scholar I’bn Rushd (Averroes to Latin speakers) saw no conflict between the two. (If you look at the statues-from-life made of both men, it’s obvious I’bn Rushd is less troubled-looking and in fact was probably easier to get along with. Maimonides’ uncertainties doubtless contributed to his irascibility.) He was also a physician, which may also have kept him somewhat apart from belief in the spiritual world. But his words and actions definitely show there was a guiding principle apart from self-interest or ambition in his life. Some people call their central guiding principle religion, but can hold the same role.

mike112769, I’ll leave aside the implication of your comment that to be truly enlightened we must be fascists allowing only APPROVED spiritual thought, and simply ask the obvious:

You believe crime and immorality is caused by a real or fictitious individual to whom is attributed a unique (for the time) philosophy of love and forgiveness????

Fiftygig: Jesus isn’t the problem? Really? If you are waiting on a man who’s been dead for over 2000 years (and may not have existed) to come and save you, that is almost the definition of a problem. Wait, I guess you’re right. Jesus isn’t the problem. It’s the people who BELIEVE in him that’s the problem. Organized religion is for sheep who have no free will, no faith in themselves or are too stupid to question anything because it’s in the christian qur’an called the bible. Science forever, superstition never!

First of all, I’m not here to debate humanism over Catholicism or any other -ism. I’m a liberal. You are free to believe what you want.

cyrena comes closest to “getting” my point, although mjt01 makes a good observation.

cyrena writes: You say “that we somehow ‘must’ -go to church- to practice or experience any kind of spiritual life-style.”

Close. I’m saying the institution serves a vital societal function. What I read in the article—and the article isn’t very clear on this, so I realize I might be misunderstanding it—is that record numbers of people are rejecting the institution. It would be nice if 100% of them are flipping from one -ism to another -ism, but I doubt it.

In the context of “The percentage of Americans who follow no religion has doubled” ... consider…

Americans vastly overuse global resources. Americans host most of the world’s malicious websites (i.e. theft) BY FAR. American sell billions of dollars of weapons to Mexican drug cartels and rationalize it by “believing” guns don’t kill people. Americans murder their own. Americans are drowning in drugs. You may have heard about certain recent financial corruption (i.e. theft). I could go on and on.

These are not just extracts of negative news from blogs. This is immorality on a disproportionately grotesque scale from ANY OTHER country in the world. We ain’t heading toward Eden, folks.

My initial posting was in reaction to the knee-jerk glee readers read into the story. I’m not sure the news is good. I think it points to the deterioration of a vital institution, a degeneration of society, decline instead of enlightenment.

Now, let me briefly attack the second issue. Organized religion. More than any of the other institutions of society, religion has been most resistant to liberalism, which is odd because I see Jesus as the ultimate liberal, thousands of years before Jefferson even got a bright idea. Forget whether he walked on water or not. Just his message, unique thousands of years ago. So simple. And still so seemingly beyond our grasp.

Churches are still largely organized as conservative institutions, I maintain. What Pat Robertson says God tells him is more important to that congregation than what God might have told the bozo in the back pew. That’s the problem with religion. It hasn’t reconciled liberalism within it, and the abandonment of the institution by liberals has left it to the wacky fringe of conservatism. Just like government.

Jesus isn’t the problem. Liberals are missing “something” and the holes there ultimately get filled by conservatism. Walking away from religious institutions isn’t a solution to anything.

y mjt01, March 11 at 7:46 am #
Fifty gigs,
Try Humanism for a little illumination—when you have finished with that, there are quite a few more. Philosophy, not that oxymoron theosophy. Doomed to fail? Not likely.
Religious structures only have problems in recent time? Just how far back does written history go? Burning at the stake, the inquisition, the crusades, the medieval church, the dark ages churches, conversion by torture, conversion on threat of death, justification of murder of nonbelievers (4000+ years ago), and so on
~*~
I just wanted to add a couple of websites for Fifty gigs..
On Humanism….
http://humaniststudies.org/humphil.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Humanist_Association
I’m concerned that FiftyGig still doesn’t understand what we mean by the difference between “Religion” (as in the established power structure ‘the church’) and spirituality. When you suggest that anyone might believe that they were ‘too good’ to ‘go to church’ it implies that we somehow ‘must’ -go to church- to practice or experience any kind of spiritual life-style.
Think about that – you/we must ‘go to church’ to appear worthy, or humble, or to experience spirituality? No, that sounds like a demand of some sort. An authoritarian order, based on a particular collection of religious texts, or just stuff that has been made up and passed down through thousands of years. That’s why samasamo explained ORGANIZED Religion as a way to control the masses, and it does. People believe in heaven, and they think they can book themselves an advance reservation by just following the rules of the organization. One of those is ‘going to church’,  but that’s not Spirituality. My idea of church would be a powwow or a session at a sweat lodge, but I’d be ok reading a book as well, or better yet, helping someone else learn to read. That is a highly spiritual activity for me, and I know hundreds of thousands of others like me.

Anyway, that’s just a followup to the helpful information that mjt01 posted. Spirituality is philosophy not theosophy.

Meantime, if Americans are becoming less religious and MORE spiritual, that would be a good thing.

By FiftyGigs, March 11 at 7:35 am

Where did you come from? And why don’t you go back to your ‘religious’ abode? Religion is the commercial description of a part of life that has been exploited to the enrichment of those who see it for what it is, a way to ‘control’ the masses, make you believe what the want you to believe. It works. Look around you, religion will cater to yours and and everyones desires and wishes and everyone gets to keep up with the latest fashions in clothes, cars and other useless and meaningless things.
Spiritual is a very personal thing and does not need broadcasting.
And for your special benefit, I for the 2nd time on this post provide you with this link from a true thinker about what this is about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

FiftyGigs,

Your sincerity is superseded by your ignorance. If you do not like what people are saying about religion, why do you not provide a coherent rebuttal? I will look forward to hearing it.

Fifty gigs,

Try Humanism for a little illumination—when you have finished with that, there are quite a few more. Philosophy, not that oxymoron theosophy. Doomed to fail? Not likely.

Religious structures only have problems in recent time? Just how far back does written history go? Burning at the stake, the inquisition, the crusades, the medieval church, the dark ages churches, conversion by torture, conversion on threat of death, justification of murder of nonbelievers (4000+ years ago), and so on.

Wow, the sarcasm and cynicism here about organized religion seems universal. Let’s all trash religion!

There’s good reason to slap down churches in modern times, but liberalism (or progressivism or libertarianism or whatever cop-out you want to use) without religion is doomed to fail, because it’s rootless and will ultimately whither and die.

I’m like you guys. I’m so frickin spiritual I’m too good to go to (sneer when you read this) church.

Or am I like you guys?

What is it that you DO believe? Please point to the community that serves as the foundation for you to FULLY explore your understanding of “good”, of “true”, of all the other mysteries of human nature that people and communities have explored for THOUSANDS of years.

Without religion, we are little, isolated understandings, failing more than succeeding. Consider this. Even if you or you or you over there have (OMG!) uncovered the meaning of a spiritual way of life, what good does it do? Oh, it sure helps you a hell of a lot. But is THAT your idea of “good”? To not share goodness with others?

Yes, I have a lot of complaints about modern organized religions. Frankly, liberals are very much at fault, ESPECIALLY when they absolve themselves from their own sins.

For God’s sake, what the hell IS religion, anyway!?

“Religion is man’s way of explaining the unexplainable.”

It’s true. Like “The Bloody Yank” said below, this is the stuff of common sense that occurs to most average minds about the time of puberty…at least until societal peer pressure and our needs to conform trump common sense.

We know what was once the “Gods fighting above” is now an electrical storm. This is understood by any high school student. What was once “God’s punishment for our sins” is now widely confirmed as a tornado caused by the collision of warm, moist air and a cold front.

Yet we’ll accept that a woman was created from a rib taken from Adam? That Jesus was born of a virgin? That Moses separated the waters of the Red Sea. That Jesus rose from the dead? (Funny, he doesn’t look Jewish in that drawing.)

Please. All such nonsense.
Hey - pick up a copy of “Losing My Religion: How I Lost My Faith Reporting on Religion in America - and Found Unexpected Peace” by William Lobdell.

What is with the picture of the bearded homeless guy falling from the clouds with a blanket and wearing a hospital gown?  I want to know what happened to his shopping cart, they are in short supply?

“Sallyzlove women seeking man”  adds?  Amusing and sexist at the same time. Wonder how “Sallyz woman seeking a man” “Waiting for us with a Christain lifestyle”, is going to handle all the Heretics on this tread?

Folkthruther - God too is probably breathing a long sigh of relief that religion, which he didn’t invent, may no longer be trespassing in his territory.

What they all said.

I say about time, bravo, hip, hip, hooray!  The less “religion” the better!  Don’t get me wrong, I do believe in a higher power, I just don’t want someone to proselytize to me that their “religion” is the only “way to God” - besides isn’t that what the Taliban say?!  It also appears to me, that as the people in this nation “became more religious” - they became more intolerant of others that were not exactly like them, they became less concerned with the “welfare of others”, they became less intelligent and were more than willing to be much less critical of the lies being disseminated by “the people in power” (just as long as they said - “they believed in their Savior Jesus”) no matter what these people did - from messing with the pages in Congress, to having sex outside of their marriage, to addiction - these suckers were more than willing to look the other way and entrust these people with office/power, WTF?!?!?

Frankly, I don’t really care what people believe!  I would appreciate some common sense (which isn’t so common, anymore), some sense of critical deep thinking, some sense of compassion for others, some sense that science and learning aren’t “of the devil” after all, some sense that we are really in this nation as a society - whether you personally “like” the other or not!  What I’d like is for the temper-tantrum throwing non-thinking bible thumpers waiting for the “Rapture” to do, is to go sit in a corner and shut up, and allow the critically deep thinking adults to take back the reins of control for awhile!

A spiritual ideology is an absolute necessity to life in any sense of the the meaning the term human. But the term spiritual has many meanings that have nothing to do with either religion or gods. The primary meaning of spiritual is the non-material. An interesting, though archaic meaning is alcoholic.

What ever makes anyone have such a narrow minded view that agnostics, freethinkers, atheists and the lot don’t have a spiritual, non-material life?

With a limited number of characters to type into this box, it’s a difficult task to express the contempt I’ve developed for the bible-thwacking, snake-handling, genocidal, self-absorbed, ignoramuses who claim the Xtain faith.  It would be bad enough if they just wanted to propagate their ignorance and superstition to their young, but for many of them it’s not enough to raise their own children in a world of religious fairies, elves, demons, and superheroes.  They want that crap disseminated into EVERYBODY’S lives as part of American government.

Some claim that Xtian faith was somehow part of the Founder’s way of life and, contrary to what scholars know about this, was intended to be integral to American government.  The claim is made that “we are a Xtain nation”.  That claim has been totally debunked, and if you look at the two references to religion in the Constitution they BOTH separate religion and state.  In Article VI, section 3, it clearly states there shall be no religious test that qualifies one for public office:

“3:  The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

The word “God” or “god” appears nowhere in the US Constitution.

However, the first item in the Bill of Rights, which was added as an afterthought to explicitly guarantee rights that the Founders thought needed to be clarified and enumerated, prohibits the US government from getting into the gawd game:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

Here’s an example that may help you understand how repulsive and obscene it is to me for the quasi-religulous to integrate their religion into public affairs.  Imagine for a moment that US had been founded by a group of fertility kooks who worshiped a large vagina figure and had sex acts with children at all of their public ceremonies.  That’s roughly equivalent of how repulsive I find the smug gawd-talk that pervades our public life.  Or if that’s too much to take, try plugging in “under Vishnu”, “under Thor the Thunder Gawd”, or “under Santa Claus” wherever it would be in the solemn oaths.  Why should Rick Warren get a spotlight at the presidential inauguration when there are plenty of secular humanists and World of Warcraft devotees available to articulate a cohesive body of beliefs and principles?

The article goes on to say that evangelicals are growing in numbers as the times get harder and people need to pray harder for economic salvation.  Maybe if you stand with your gawdy antennae extended (palms upward, fingers wagging) and wave them about to a throbbing death-rock song about Jezus dying for YOUR SINS, oh how he died, yes he died, oh he bled, oh it hurt so bad, all for YOU, maybe then gawdy will hear your prayer because you were transmitting through your fingertips.

I’m taking up collections to buy galvanized koolaid tubs for all those churches that don’t already have them.  I was thinking about trying to capitalize on this new religious fervor by inventing a carbon-fiber thwack-proof bible cover.  There’s no beejeezus-beatin’ this baby can’t take.  I had an idea for an over-the-shoulder bible holster but then I realized that the Mormons had already beat me to it.

Pffffffffft.

-Wexler

The problem with religious institutions in modern times is that they have allied themselves more with conservative principles (i.e. power and supremacy) and have abandon the liberal truth of the Bible (i.e. love thy neighbor as yourself).

By samosamo, March 10 at 1:04 am #

•  “The title to this post is dubious to me as it seems once again to say that because there are more people that have become less religious that they also loose any spirituality and don’t believe in a god.”

Do not despair samosamo. It’s because people don’t know the difference between ‘Religion’ and SPIRITUALITY.
That said, I actually found something to ‘celebrate’ in this poll, that addresses your very concern..
“..While only 1.6 million people identify as atheist or agnostic, 12 percent believe there is no God or are unsure whether there’s a God and another 12 percent believe in a impersonal higher power..”

I’m in the raising 12 percent who believe in an impersonal higher power, and then I add my individual embellishments, and have spirituality. So, that might be you too. In that case, we’re gaining ranks. People who know the difference between religion and spirituality.

Rejoice!!

The title to this post is dubious to me as it seems once again to say that because there are more people that have become less religious that they also loose any spirituality and don’t believe in a god. Well, that is what is so sad about this ‘modern’ day religious bullshit that suckers far too many weak ignorant people in just to get their money and control their minds. After 18 years of having to sit on the 2 row pew at the church I was for some mysterious reason I became a member without even realizing what happened, I stopped going. In particulary because when I asked one of the preachers of ‘my’ church that when chirst came back would he come here in america or go to russia. The preacher said america. Wonder how he knew?
Religion is actually a commercialize version of spirituality the indigenous tribes of all continents had before the power brokers come on the scene to exploit that spiritualness into full time big time major league organize religion. That was a very sad day.

I just had to look for george carlin’s little piece ‘Religion is Bullshit’.
This is the link to it I hope:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

a spiritual ideology of some kind is essential for a humane society.  That is the positive idea in TAO’s posts that complement his critique of Civilized society.

Unfortuantely, power has hijacked humanity’s religions historically to get us to identify with Divine and earthy power.  But a godless people-centered religion is not only possible, they are beginning to emerge in the 20th century in the modern religions.

Personally, I happen to be chairman of the Southern California Committee TO STAMP OUT PRAYER.  We are a small but inert group who have not yet, in our decades of exist, got around to conceiving a more general program.  But we certainly are not atheists.

Atheism is an abysmal poverty of imagination, the failure to invent a god like everybody else.  I myself prefer Clio, the Greek Muse of History.  She is an absent minded bimbo who is entirely concerned with her own affairs and pays no attention to us.  She has enormous power but the notion of worshiping her is..is.. well, it’s a religous notion.  we are against traditional religious notions.

Perhaps that’s because the “Rapture”, as some of us have long suspected, is nothing more than a giant sucker of quiet, cat-loving (you-know-whats).

Big B: Perhaps that’s because the “Rapture” is, as some of us have always suspected, little more than a giant, a-hole sucker.

By CosimodiRondo, March 9 at 9:17 pm
Hallelujah!  Can I get an Amen, brother!  Could humanity finally be ready to be guided by rational thought?  After all, why would God give us the ability to reason and then resent us for using it?  Sounds kind of petty.

~*~*
Oh yes you CAN get an Amen brother, and a Hallelujah as well!! (I can never remember how to spell that one).

I was actually just gonna post a simple Thank GOD! Now how hypocritical would that be.

Anyway, love the post. That says it all.

Oh Happy Day!! Good old logic and reason might actually come back to rule the day.

Hallelujah!  Can I get an Amen, brother!  Could humanity finally be ready to be guided by rational thought?  After all, why would God give us the ability to reason and then resent us for using it?  Sounds kind of petty.

If this trend continues the Rapture is going to be no fun at all. We will all be standing in line at the 7-11 scratching our balls, wondering why that quiet asshole with all the cats that lives at the end of the street was just sucked up into the sky.