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Ear to the Ground

‘Holocaust Bishop’ Ordered to Recant

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Posted on Feb 4, 2009
Holocaust Bishop
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Reinstated on Jan. 24, “Holocaust Bishop” Williamson has caused a ruckus with the no-evidence-of-gas-chambers argument he made on Swedish TV last November.

With a media-dubbed moniker that doesn’t look good for either party, the “Holocaust Bishop”—a British bishop recently un-excommunicated by the pope—is being told by the Vatican to recant his views after news broke that he “believe[s] there were no gas chambers [during World War II].”

The BBC:

The Vatican has ordered an ultra-traditionalist bishop to publicly recant his views denying the Holocaust.

A statement said Bishop Richard Williamson must “unequivocally” distance himself from his statements to serve in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Vatican also said that the Pope had not been aware of the bishop’s views when he lifted excommunications on him and three other bishops last month.

The Pope’s decision, ending Bishop Williamson’s excommunication on an unrelated matter, has caused a bitter row, as the bishop does not believe that Jews were gassed by the Nazis in World War II.

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By Eso, February 8, 2009 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Allan Gurfinkle: I found your links interesting and thought provoking. I have spent all day looking at some of the footage. It’s slow getting the signal into my computer, re 236.8 Kbps. That is all the mobile signal will carry at my end of the world. It will be interesting to see what the bishop decides to do. Somehow, I do not think that Merkel or the Pope will have the last word.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 8, 2009 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

Who says they disappeared?  The Russians had only a small smidgen of records.  There were warehouses full of documents, as noted in “Documents of Destruction” by Raul Hillenberg.

Another “Big Lie” put out by the Holocaust denier crowd.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 8, 2009 at 9:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Inherit The Wind, February 8 at 7:10 am #

•  There were between a million and 2 million Jews in Poland before the War.  Now, the descendants of the 1100 on Schindler’s list out-number all the Jews in Poland.  They didn’t all go to Israel.  900,000 died in Birkenau—the same number as all the Arab nations expelled following Israel’s founding.

The Nazis were meticulous record keepers, even recording the number and sizes of lice picked from prisoners heads (see link below).  What happened to the Nazi camp records?

The Soviets captured the records for Auschwitz-Birkenau and hid them away.  They erected a plaque saying that 4 million had died at Auschwtiz.  In the 80’s they released the records, including death certificates for the registered prisoners that died and Death Books summarizing the results.  The old plaque was replaced by a plaque saying that 1.5 million had died.  The actual records show that this number is also not supported by the data, you can see the Auschwitz Museum summary of the records here ...

http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=8

Note that when the Auschwitz plaque was changed from 4 million to 1.5 million, the total number of Jewish victims of the holocaust, six million, was not affected !

The Russians inexplicably hid the Nazi records for 40 years. What about the records captured by the US/Brits?  They are still hidden, more that 60 million documents, in the Bad Arolsen archive, see a report on the archive here ....

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-19-holocaust-papers_x.htm

The point is that there is considerable data to answer the question ‘What happened to the Jews sent to the camps?’.  However, it has been kept secret for 70 years.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 8, 2009 at 8:10 am Link to this comment

There’s nothing so vile as a holocaust denier. 

The US Army buried untold bodies mass graves and watched the too-starved die AFTER they were liberated.

Different camps were differently equipped. Dachau was mainly for political enemies and was one of the few camps located in Germany.

There were between a million and 2 million Jews in Poland before the War.  Now, the descendants of the 1100 on Schindler’s list out-number all the Jews in Poland.  They didn’t all go to Israel.  900,000 died in Birkenau—the same number as all the Arab nations expelled following Israel’s founding.

These are simple clear and compelling numbers. 10’s of millions died in WWII as a result of Hitler’s and Tojo’s insane ambitions, and Stalin’s paranoia. More non-Jewish Russians died in the War than Jews. So what’s the deal?  Half the Jews in the world vanished, and most due to mechanized and organized death squads, whether impromtu firing squads or carefully designed Zyklon B gas chambers disguised as showers in Auschwitz.

But if you can get enough ignorant people to doubt the Holocaust, then Hitler’s policies and anti-Semitism don’t need to be seen as despicable.

It’s already started in Venezuela where a minuscule total of 15,000 Jews live. A winked-at (by Chavez’s govt) columnist has urged all Venezuelans to “confront Jews where you see them” about Gaza.  Temples have been vandalized and people threatened in their homes—as if the Jews in Venezuela are responsible for Israel’s action in Gaza.  Chavez had made some token statements that Venezuelan Jews don’t need to be afraid….but this is how it starts again and again.

Ironically and sickeningly, many American of Arab background who follow Islam can face similar fears here at home.

When leaders look for “The Other” violence becomes acceptable.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 7, 2009 at 9:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By Eso, February 7 at 12:17 am #

•  The prisoners from Buchenwald, when released from the camp and walking the streets of Weimar, were people in a state where they had only skin to bone, which all left a rather horrific impression on me.

The conditions in the western camps at the end of the war were horrific for reasons described in a previous post.  There was no deliberate attempt to kill anyone.

Within a week after the capture of Buchenwald famous Hollywood director Billy Wilder was there making a movie that was shown at Nuremberg and worldwide.  It featured a table on which were shrunken heads, a lampshade made from human skin, soap made from human fat, and other evidence of Nazi crimes.  No scholar now accepts this evidence as valid.

They brought the townspeople to the camp, showed them the table, etc.  You can see a video of all this, including Wilder on the set, at ..

http://www.onethirdoftheholocaust.com/Buchenwald/ 

•  The links to photos of alleged gas chambers are not convincing evidence. One would believe that the authorities would have made a special effort to preserve these as evidence of the inhumanity of human beings to each other. But apparently there is no such evidence.

No such evidence?  These gas chambers are shown to visitors everyday at Auschwitz and Majdanek.  For a complete discussion of the Auschwitz gas chamber, along with a video tour of the camp and an interview with the museum director, see David Cole Interviews Dr. Frantisek Piper at

http://www.vho.org/GB/c/DC/gcgvcole.html

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By Eso, February 7, 2009 at 1:17 am Link to this comment

The prisoners from Buchenwald, when released from the camp and walking the streets of Weimar, were people in a state where they had only skin to bone, which all left a rather horrific impression on me. These people went from house to house begging something to eat. The Germans gave them mostly bread with marmalade—as I remember. Later, I heard that a number of the inmates died because they had eaten too much. But why did not the allies, the U.S. Army have their field kitchens feed them? Yes, the U.S. Army wanted the native population see what its government had done, indeed, if I remember correctly, every adult had to go to the camp and see, but in retrospect the idea of letting the near starvation point prisoners wander the streets seems almost cruel.

For many years, I was under the impression that Buchenwald had cremation ovens, because there was at least one tall chimney visible often with smoke coming from it. The local Germans said it was a factory, though I know not what kind. But no one has said that there were gas chambers at Buchenwald. The links to photos of alleged gas chambers are not convincing evidence. One would believe that the authorities would have made a special effort to preserve these as evidence of the inhumanity of human beings to each other. But apparently there is no such evidence.

I had seen the inmates of Buchenwald in better shape clearing the streets of Weimar after the Allie bombers had dropped their bombs indiscriminately on Weimar. There was some talk that the bombs were to destroy the Bahnhoff, but they surely fell over the town, even in the fields outside of town.

Buchenwald was a camp not only for Jews, but many many people from Eastern Europe. I believe Ellie Wiesel was one of the ones rescued from Buchenwald.

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By cyrena, February 6, 2009 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment

“These are the only two gas chambers that still exist.  Both have large unbarred glass windows.  An odd design for a gas chamber, don’t you think?”

I dunno Allan, if it’s odd or not. I admit that I don’t know much of anything at all about the construction of gas chambers. I’ve seen photos of the ones used here in the US system when we were still gassing people to death, and I don’t recall that any of THEM had large unbarred glass windows. Seems like they DID have some sort of windows for ‘observers’ though. For ME, it’s very difficult to conjure up an ‘efficient’ design for a death machine. But I know the Nazis took this very seriously, which Hannah Arndt incorporates very effectively into her theory on “The Banality of Evil.”

Meantime, from what I can gather without giving it too much more time or attention, the Bishop isn’t likely to ‘recant’ and since he’s not a recognized authority/scholar on the Jewish Holocaust or any other one that I know of, it doesn’t much matter.

Like we’ve both noted, reasonable people come to their own conclusions based on the evidence available. The Bishop here is just one guy.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 6, 2009 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By cyrena, February 6 at 3:53 pm #

•  Thanks for the links. I’ve saved them. I think this confirms it. Apparently the Bishop is unaware of these facilities.

Not only is Bishop Williamson aware of the Auschwitz gas chamber, he discusses it in the video.

These are the only two gas chambers that still exist.  Both have large unbarred glass windows.  An odd design for a gas chamber, don’t you think?

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By cyrena, February 6, 2009 at 4:53 pm Link to this comment

Allan,

Thanks for the links. I’ve saved them. I think this confirms it. Apparently the Bishop is unaware of these facilities.

As for the numbers involved, (he says it’s closer to 300,000 than 6 million) I’m sure there is information with all of the scientific methodology attached to that as well, though I admittedly haven’t studied it. I’ve just always ‘accepted’ the 6 million figure as I have the 5 million figure for number of Africans kidnapped and worked into the Slave Trade.

Five million is the standard number we read and hear, but it’s hard to know to what accuracy those things could be recorded, because of the time and the historical circumstances. We do slightly better with the numbers that perished in the Native American Genocide, but again, that involves careful study of whatever documents we DO have, keeping in mind that there were no census or any other of those kinds of demographic measuring tools available at the time, and the Native American history is more oral than recorded. So, we missed so much of that knowledge.

Anyway, thanks for the links. I’m great at coming to my own conclusions when presented with legitimate evidence. wink

This is good enough for me. I’m sure there are probably lots of other of these photos available, even if the original facilities aren’t still standing. Matter of fact, now that I think about it, the Museum of Tolerance, located in West Los Angeles probably has many. I should be embarrassed to say that I’ve never been inside that Museum, though my sister’s children have all had it included in their educational upbringing.

I did read an excellent book a few years back though, “Hitler’s Black Victims” and I’m trying to remember now, if there was any mention of the ‘methods’ and specifically the use of gas chambers. There were several thousand of them though.

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By coffee, February 6, 2009 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

you know something is serious when they bring out the special ecclesiastical terms, i.e. “recant!”

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 6, 2009 at 6:50 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By cyrena, February 5 at 11:37 pm #

•  BUT, the Bishop here is talking specifically about the so-called ‘ovens’ or GAS CHAMBERS. So, the first question is, DID THESE OVENS/GAS CHAMBERS EXIST,

Just so.

•  Got any photos of gas chambers that can be reasonably believed to have been in use at the time?

I’m glad you asked.  There are two gas chambers still standing, and you can see photos of them here..

Auschwitz gas chamber door ...
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/saggy_010/Auschwitzwindow.gif

Majdanek gas chamber ...
http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq193/saggy_010/Majdanekwindow.jpg

Draw your own conclusions.

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By cyrena, February 6, 2009 at 12:37 am Link to this comment

By Allan Gurfinkle, February 5 at 11:01 am #

•  “We have all seen these pictures. When the Soviets approached the eastern camps, mainly Auschwitz, the prisoners were transferred west, where the conditions in the camps became intolerable because of overcrowding, lack of supplies, and lack of medicine.  And of course, the Allies were bombing transport, etc.  The result was a typhus epidemic that killed 35,000 in Belsen alone.  The pictures are of these victims of typhus and other diseases.  You can verify the 35,000 figure here ...”

Indeed Allan, we HAVE seen the photos that you mention here, and we certainly know that the Soviets were doing their own version of these camps, with the occupants (Jews, Gypsies, the mentally and physically ill, the homosexuals, and just about everybody else that either the Stalinists OR the Nazis decided to lock up in these gulags, and allow to die from neglect. (At least that was the Stalin plan).

So yes, we DO know about the camps and we’ve seen so many of the atrocities documented.

BUT, the Bishop here is talking specifically about the so-called ‘ovens’ or GAS CHAMBERS. So, the first question is, DID THESE OVENS/GAS CHAMBERS EXIST, and the next question is did the NAZIS, under the Hitler leadership USE these gas chambers for massive slaughter, and were there ultimately 6 million Jews killed in the over all effort.

The Bishop apparently doesn’t have evidence of these ovens or gas chambers, and hasn’t been able to make the math work to come up with 6 million as the number that perished in the overall operation. There’s a big difference between 35,000 and 6 million, and what you describe in the above seems far more consistent with the Stalin/Soviet gulags, (those thousands of people died from neglect more than intentional massacres like gassing) which we have no doubts about. Apparently it is only the Nazi operation that alleges massive slaughter through this gas method that is in question.

Got any photos of gas chambers that can be reasonably believed to have been in use at the time?

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By bluejeanne, February 5, 2009 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Nelson Robison 02/04/09

‘I am wholeheartedly ashamed at the choice of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to allow this bishop back into fellowship with the church.  He, Pope Benedict XVI,
seems bent on a course of returning the church to the 15th Century, when it held sway over most of the known world and had the political and economic power to do as they wished, and the Holy Father was the supreme ruler of the civilized ‘

Yes, the boys in the red skull caps must be a little upset that they had a chance to elect an African Pope from Nigeria to demonstrate just how progressive the Catholic Church really is.  It would have been a real “coup” for an otherwise stale heirarchy to select the Cardinal from Nigeria but now the U.S. populace manifested its own progressiveness and “sophistication”  i.e. UNIVERSALism (read catholicism) something the Europeans thought was exclusively characteristic of themselves and actually very distant from the Americans.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 5, 2009 at 12:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

re tomack, February 5 at 5:53 am #

....I think he should meet my wife’s uncle. That would be the uncle who was among the first U.S. army soldiers to reach the camps. Said uncle has pictures, as do many other soldiers—hundreds of which are now public domain.

We have all seen these pictures. When the Soviets approached the eastern camps, mainly Auschwitz, the prisoners were transferred west, where the conditions in the camps became intolerable because of overcrowding, lack of supplies, and lack of medicine.  And of course, the Allies were bombing transport, etc.  The result was a typhus epidemic that killed 35,000 in Belsen alone.  The pictures are of these victims of typhus and other diseases.  You can verify the 35,000 figure here ...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-11-25-holocaust-archive_x.htm

You can see other photos taken at Belsen that you have not seen before here ....

http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=0

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 5, 2009 at 11:49 am Link to this comment
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By recuz, February 5 at 7:54 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena,

the good bishop in a televised interview kindly told the world about his evidence.  It’s mostly the Leuchter report.

That is by no means his entire argument.  And, the Leuchter report has convinced many.  We could argue (well, I did but it was not published) that it is perfectly valid.  But, no real need, as Bishop Williamson also points out that the door to the Auschwitz ‘gas chamber’ has a wooden unsealed door.

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By Purple Girl, February 5, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Nostradamus was not a Prophet, he was a man of ethic and logic.
The Vatican has always been a scourage to humanity. Now with the lil Nazi Youth Pope, who is surprised he reinstated some of his old cronies and ideologues.
As a long time Recover Catholic, I didn’t see John Paul as an evil man, just ignorant. Ratz is not ignorant, he’s pure evil.
Between this recent atrocity and the scores of child molesters and millenia of devaluing womens contributions and Lives, Does it really require some Extra Sensory perception to forecast the downfall of this Dreadful institution? Even in these horrific times, more people are running away from the Catholic church than towards- that says something about just how revolting and repulsive it has become.
The Only difference is the Vatican can not longer torture, burn or drown it’s dessenters. LOL!

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By recuz, February 5, 2009 at 8:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Cyrena,

the good bishop in a televised interview kindly told the world about his evidence.  It’s mostly the Leuchter report.  I leave it to you to research its validity and draw your own conclusions.

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By tomack, February 5, 2009 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

I think he should meet my wife’s uncle. That would be the uncle who was among the first U.S. army soldiers to reach the camps. Said uncle has pictures, as do many other soldiers—hundreds of which are now public domain.

Well i guess they all could have been doctored. We all know how good the photo doctoring technology was at the time, and that U.S. soldiers were at the forefront of this technology.

And I guess the bodies could have been a result of the flu—a flu the Nazi’s were immune to of course. 

LOOK! I just saw a hamhock fly by my window.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 5, 2009 at 5:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

re cyrena, February 4 at 7:34 pm #

......OK, there are a couple of ways to settle this. One way would be to ask Bishop Williamson to direct us to his historical evidence, since that’s what he’s basing this on.

That is exactly what he does in his statement on youtube.


......There’s a trick to this, because of course what we’d be asking him to do is to prove a negative.

That is not a problem. I reviewed his statement but the editors won’t publish it.  They will not allow one person to post in favor of Williamson’s argument.  They are running scared.

Watch his statement on youtube and consider each part carefully.

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By Folktruther, February 5, 2009 at 4:40 am Link to this comment

An interesting point, Cyrena, the difficulty of proving the gas chambers did not exist.  I suppose he could refute the truthers who say that they did.  And he may be counting only the Jews murdered in Germany, not worked to death in slave labor camps, etc.

Or he may be a dingbat, like Saggy was.  The only way to tell is to let him say his truth.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

Eso,

I don’t “believe” anything. I’m Agnostic. If you want to believe that Jesus is the Linus Van Pelt’s “Great Pumpkin” that is your time to waste.

Just so’s you know: “Jesus” is Greek for Yeshua, or Joshua, in English, not “John” or any of its variations.

Have fun explaining how Islam’s Qu’ran holds Jesus as a prophet 300-400 years before you say he existed…Where’s that “Flux Capacitor”???

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By cyrena, February 4, 2009 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment

OK, there are a couple of ways to settle this. One way would be to ask Bishop Williamson to direct us to his historical evidence, since that’s what he’s basing this on. There’s a trick to this, because of course what we’d be asking him to do is to prove a negative.

In other words, how can he ‘prove’ that his evidence does NOT reveal the existence of gas chambers, which is what he is claiming. He’s NOT claiming that Jews didn’t perish in Nazi concentration camps, he’s just saying that HIS evidence doesn’t reveal the existence of GAS CHAMBERS, and that he believes the number of Jews who perished to be much lower than 6 million.

So, we can ask him how he arrived at the latter conclusion, (the numbers being closer to 300,000) and we can look through the history archives for photos and other documentation of these gas chambers, to see if they really did exist. We KNOW the concentration camps did. I have many photos of those, as well as Jews marching dumbly toward them. But, there are no gas chamber photos among my collection. Still, it would seem like they’d be around somewhere. God knows this has been the most documented “Holocaust” in the history of mankind.

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By azythos, February 4, 2009 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

P.T. says: “If the bishop actually believes what he said, demanding that he recant is demanding that he be dishonest. Absurd”

Way more absurd, the guy doesn’t believe there were gas chambers but then he believes in gods, devils, angels and such.

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By D.M., February 4, 2009 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Upon I realizig the official 9/11 story is media/goverment perpetuated myth most American’s still buy into ( though in declining numbers), I would like to see the details of both 9/11/01 (I am not saying the Jews of any other group did it) and the Holocaust studied using state of the art forensics so we can put the matters to rest. I have Jewish relatives who agree. However the Jews died in WWII, it was horrific. There should be no fear in verifying the details using the latest scientific methods.

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By Eso, February 4, 2009 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind: I am saying that Christianity existed before Christ. If you do not get hung up on reading what you want to read and start reading what has not been written, you might get to understand that I am saying that John came before Jesus, and had thousands of years of a tradition before a John by the name of Jesus came around and was martyred by one of the rising secular princes and kings. Jesus was but one of many Johns, a caste or brotherhood of traveling priest, teacher—as the sadhus of India are to this day. The word Christianity has two parts: Cross + John. The word cross has more than an English pronounciation (criss-cross) and many meanings, the sign for the Sun being one, a man of central or great importance being another. The same goes for John, re Ian, Ivan, Jean, Jan, Huan, Hans, Geon, etc. Which is why the Hagia Sophia was not build for Jesus, but for Johns, holy men like the Indian sadhus today, men still capable of self-sacrifice unlike the religious leadership today sung to their armpits in pietism. You can believe whatever fairytales you want, but I suggest you read a greater variety of books, and not just material that the orthodoxy puts before you.

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By photoshock, February 4, 2009 at 4:14 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind,  I too see much that can be taught to someone like Eso, yet why waste the precious time? 
There are much better things to do with ones time than to try and educate a simpleton and ignoramus regarding known historical facts and eyewitness accounts of horrific and brutal treatment at the hands of the Nazis.
Should Eso, ever come and wish to be educated, there arr many groups that have educational material that is geared towards the Shoah denier. The Elie Wiesel Foundation is one such organization.  There are many others that specialize in the education of Shoah deniers.
No one more than I wishes that these ostrich-like people would just keep their heads in the sand and let the rest of the world live in peace. Yet, deny they must for if they don’t then who will we have to hope that they become educated enough to recant their
misbegotten ideas and follies of remembrance.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 2:44 pm Link to this comment

Eso,

Have a nice day. I’m not going to waste any more time on someone who refuses to recognize obvious facts, like the Hagia Sophia (“St. Sophia”) was built 500 years before you say Christ lived.

So enjoy playing with your mental blocks.  You wanna be insulted? Fine! Truthdig isn’t the place for the thin-skinned.

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By Eso, February 4, 2009 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the Wind. How is one to answer your preposterous self-righteousness and presumption with regard to eternity. Good luck.

I stand by what I said: there is no proof of any Israel as an empire except in imagination. There is some proof that Jews (by whatever name) existed in small numbers in the middle ages, and that these numbers increased in tandem with the persecution of the Catholic Church (what I call neo-Christians) of the Cathars, the Bogomils, the Children of John, et al starting about the 12th century. This is the time that the number of Jews increased dramatically, probably because the arch-Christians found that by joining the Jews, they could at least for a time escape the Catholic Inquisition. There were probably considerable parallels in theological outlook between the Jews and those who joined them, which is why they joined them not as converts, but as refugees. Probably because the Jews were a caste of tax collectors, they were protected by the princes and kings of the time. There is considerable evidence that arch-Christians were a non-violent people, which is why the neo-Christians eventually gained the upper hand, quite literally, by using the sword and later encouraging pogroms. As one Jewish historian has argued, the Jews became judaized as a result of the violence used against them. The violence may have been all the more violent because of the converts.

It is sad to see this rich history become so distorted, turned into a nationalist myth, becoming a justification for war, and Jews displacing people in Palestine in the same manner that their own predecessors were in the lands of their origin.

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By Folktruther, February 4, 2009 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

Williamson, who is a memeber of the anti-semitic Mel Gibson wing of catholicism, has every ritght to argue his position that there were no gas chambers, and any other historical position whatever, no matter how loony they may appear to be.  Mainstream history is such a fabric of lies and bullshit, almost anything is possible.  Indeed, in progmugating the Nine Commandments, the priests appear to have miscounted.

The Holy Father, Pope Ratso, however, should re-excommunicate Williamson for bigotry, a different thing.  But Ratso, a well known bigot against Muslims, appears to be a strong proponent of bigotry, delusion and bullshit, in the traditional religious way.  It wouldn’t surprise me if he proposed Mel Gibson for sainthood when he finally dies.

Whereas the Real saint is Paris Hilton for calling McCain a ‘wrinkly old man.”  I’ll bet it cut him to the quick.  The Holy Bible at home that I don’t read is the Hilton Hotel edition, the very one that Paris uses in her devotions.  Or is she the one that is studying Kabalah?  You know you are really getting old when you can’t keep the sex goddesses straight.

For some reason I agree with MJT that this is not one of the Great Issues of the time.

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By mjt01, February 4, 2009 at 12:24 pm Link to this comment

Let us create a whirlwind about what one person thinks did or did not happen sixty to seventy years ago. And above all, let us use this storm to screen our tender senses from the endless brutality that is being committed today.

Let us respect the memories of those who died horrible deaths by using their memories to blind us to what is happening today. To excuse what is happening today. And just think, tomorrow we will have more memories of more people to commemorate.

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By Inherit The Wind, February 4, 2009 at 11:42 am Link to this comment

This just goes to show the old adage that “No good deed goes unpunished!”

Eso—you are so full of it as a justification for your own anti-Semitism.  The acid-test of Jewish history has already been performed and passed.  Of course, I refer to DNA typing.

The idiocy of your position can be documented in more ways than one.  Here’s an odd-ball one: The Qu’ran, the holy scripture of Islam, has a book of Mary and describes Jesus as born of a virgin and as the next-to-last prophet and second only to Mohammed.  Since Mohammed lived in the 600’s and the Koran came shortly after, it’s clear that nonsense claims that Jesus lived AFTER the Qu’ran was written and even after the start of Romanesque Cathedral construction are easily dismissed.

It’s kind of hard to imagine how the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul could have been built as a cathedral to Christ in the 5th and 6th centuries when Christ wasn’t to show up until the 11th century.  That’s when it was built—there is no question, no doubt, no issue.

The ages of churches is easy to establish.  It’s inane to claim they were built to celebrate the life of a guy who wouldn’t be born for another 500 years.

You could make a better case that Christ never existed and they dreamed Him up—a far better case….

WAIT A MINUTE! WHAT ABOUT THE FLUX CAPACITOR AND 1.21 GIGAWATTS!  BACK TO THE FUTURE!!!!!!!!

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By SusanSunflower, February 4, 2009 at 11:17 am Link to this comment

It’s hard to imagine how this could have been bungled worse…. or how bad this makes the current Pope look, particularly with his own background.

That he was not asked to recant as a condition of being un-ex-communicated is unfathomable ... particularly since Holocaust denial is an actual crime in some places and, even when not a crime, it is generally considered barbarically insensitive and provocative, if not just dismissed as plain “looney tunes.”

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By a jones, February 4, 2009 at 11:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

where is freedom of speech? why shouldn’t the bishop be free to express his opinion without being harassed from the Jewish group?

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By P. T., February 4, 2009 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

I think some of these guys are fascist types who see what Nazi Germany did as delegitimatizing fascism.  So they deny what happened.

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By Eso, February 4, 2009 at 10:29 am Link to this comment

I think that the Catholic Church is being squeezed between a rock and a hard place on the question of history. The demand by the Pope that the Bishop recant is of course an order behind which, I assume stands the possibility of yet another excommunication of the Bishop if he does not recant. But if the Catholic Church were to excommunicate the Bishop again, it would certainly dig itself deeper into the untruth of its own history, which is of its own making.

The hard question is really about history. I deny the veracity of the Scaligeri chronology which was ordered up by the Catholic Church in the 16th century and has been a canon of Western historians ever since. I am far more sympathetic to the chronology argued for by the Russian mathematician and historian Fomenko. The latter dates the birth of Jesus to 1086 or 1195. If so, and Western historians have nothing but myth to offer in counter arguments (the academic phalanx is holding but there is no guarantee it can hold), the next question is the origin of the Jews. The Jewish scholar Paul Wexler argues that the Ashkenazik Jews originate in Eastern Europe and Turkic tribal lands, the Sephardic Jews had their genesis in North Africa, and he has strong arguments in his support. The Bible of course is not history buy myth. The events there parallel like events in Europe in the Middle Ages and “ancient” Greece. And then there is the question of the origins of the Catholic Church itself, which clearly enough replaced an Earth bound figure named John with one named Jesus, whom it sent to heaven.

Which is why I am in support of scholars taking another and profound look at what passes for history and historical chronology. We have plenty of evidence from our own time that men and their institutions have attempted to rewrite history to favor the victor rather than stay with what really happened. Thus, in the name of truth, the graves must be opened and the bones should be recounted.

I suspect that with the financial system buckling and likely to go under (who can afford to pay off the potential $600 trillion credit derivative debt?), the time has arrived that favors the revisionists or such, as myself, for whom the entire civilization has become suspect and needs a top to bottom reinvestigation. Thus, even though as a child I found myself in Weimar at the end of WW2 and saw the released inmates walk the streets, I was too young to be a knowledgeable witness and have taken the word of others what it is that I supposedly saw. I certainly saw a lot of men near starvation, but none were identifiable as Jews, and, I understand, Buchenwald had no crematoria.

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By photoshock, February 4, 2009 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

I in my heart of hearts believe that Bishop Williamson, believes exactly what he stated to be true.
I am wholeheartedly ashamed at the choice of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger to allow this bishop back into fellowship with the church.  He, Pope Benedict XVI,
seems bent on a course of returning the church to the 15th Century, when it held sway over most of the known world and had the political and economic power to do as they wished, and the Holy Father was the supreme ruler of the civilized world.
Many of the American Catholics and all of the European that have been polled, do not want a return to medieval times and the power of the church to do as they wished.
By insulting the Jewish world, at this time of crisis, the Roman Church, has in effect cut off their
nose to spite their own face.  Dialogue was just becoming a reality under Pope John Paul II, when he passed on, yet Benedict XVI, seems hell bent on destroying any forward thinking person, and ideals that have emerged during the interregnum since Vatican II.
Now is not the time for the Church to leap backwards in their thinking and actions, yet Benedict is doing
just that. It is high time, that the laity, join together and seek out those who are looking forward in their thinking and actions.  One thing that must occur, is the ordination of married men and women to the priesthood.  This will stem the tide of men, who once ordained seek the removal of their vows and go back into the community as men of faith, but not as priests.
G-d, help us if in the near future, the Holy Father, does not reverse the course of the church and stays the uncertain course of refusal to allow married men and women priests.  For soon enough their will not be
enough men to minister the sacraments to all of the faithful.

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By P. T., February 4, 2009 at 9:42 am Link to this comment

If the bishop actually believes what he said, demanding that he recant is demanding that he be dishonest.  Absurd.

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