Thanks for the SOA link, KDelphi.  Gutsy people.  Notice how religious ideology can inspire some people to high moral actions.  Not typical of course.

I got a bunch of pics from someone who went to the SOA protest this year.

http://www.soaw.org/article.php?id=1712

11 were sentenced to jail. (This is the first time in a few years) A Bill to close the SOA failed in the House in 2007 by six votes. 42 Dems voted “no”:Among them were Abercrombie, Gonzalez, Clyburn, Snuyder, Spratt, Dingell Meek and Murtha. Napolitano, Sanchez and Weiner did not vote.

There is a new bill, and, there is a protest and lobby in DC on February 16th.

“The Eleven courageous souls that willingly put their freedom and bodies at risk to stand in witness against the SOA/WHINSEC during the November 2007 Vigil have been sentenced to federal prison on charges of “trespassing on a military base”.

The SOAW 11 are:

- Joan Anderson, 65, Casper, WY - 30 days and a $500 fine
- Ozone Bhaguan, 33, Duluth, MN - 90 days and no fine
- Le Anne Clausen, 29, Chicago, IL. - 30 days and no fine
- Art Landis, 74, Perkasie, PA - 30 days and no fine
- Ed Lewinson, 78, Newark NJ - 90 days and a $500 fine
- Chris Lieberman, 54, Albuquerque, NM - 60 days and no fine
- Diane Lopez Hughes, 58, Springfield, IL - 45 days and a $500 fine
- Tiel Rainelli, 25, Canton, OH. - 90 days and a $500 fine
- Gus Roddy, 45, Chicago, IL - 30 days and a $500 fine
- Stephen Schweitzer, 45, Binghamtom, NY - 60 days and a $500 fine
- Michelle Yipé, 45, of Argonia, KS - 30 days and a $500 fine”

Obama supports torture: he just wants to cover it up better than the Bushites did so people won’t be concerned about it.

Torture has been part of US foreign policy at least since WW2, and the School of the Americaas is still teaching it.  As is the US army.

Panetta CAVES: (well…he was always a caver)

Panetta Hedges on Rendition Remarks
By Tim Starks, CQ Staff
Leon E. Panetta, the Obama administration’s pick to lead the CIA, backed away Friday from earlier remarks that he suspected the United States had transferred terror suspects to other countries so that they could be tortured.

The vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Christopher S. Bond , R-Mo.,(KIT!) pressed Panetta on remarks he made on the first day of his confirmation hearing Thursday, with Bond saying “it’s news to me” that the Bush administration did so. He noted that the U.S. government “sought and received” assurances that any suspects transferred to other countries would not be tortured. (oh, gawd….)

Panetta said he knew the United States sought and received those assurances, although there have been claims that suspects were mistreated nonetheless. But on Bond’s question about “deliberative intent” to transfer subjects for the purposes of being tortured, Panetta said “to that extent, I retract it.”

Panetta had said Thursday the extraordinary renditions of the Bush administration would not be allowed under a new executive order: “No, we will not, because, under the executive order issued by the president, that kind of extraordinary rendition, where we send someone for the purposes of torture or for actions by another country that violate our human values, that has been forbidden by the executive order.”

Go watch it, from yesterday, on c-span.org. More Theatre of the Absurd..

So will we “get assurances” that “people will not be tortured” again? Oh, good…that should work. And contractors wil be required to work under the Geneva Convention(ish) as JOn Stewart , of the Daily Show , put it.

WHY dont we just OBSERVE the Geneva Conventions??

Also the US has trained terror squads and established prisons to toruture the populationin within the country that they are in, such as Iraq. It is not necessary to render prisoners in order to torture them.  Nothing is stated about this on the assumption that it will continue.  Including torture in the US of American citizens.

Obama is masking, sanitizing and continuing the policies of torture legitimazed by the Bushites.  And supported by the Zionist neoliberals and militarists.

Prog—Where does it say that rendition would be “absent torure and legal limbo”?

If the difference ie “charges”, wouldn they just trump some up, it they wanted to? (it is what they do!)

Why not just follow the Geneva Conventions and intl law,aS Folktruther said, or, cant we just get a warrent within 72 hours?

One way to obstruct real change is to make things seem more difficult or complicated than they really are.

it is not a “conundrum”. That is a word I hear when people are trying to “have meetings”, appoint Blue Ribbon panels, and preserve the status quo etc.

I sure didnt seem to be confusing to Sen. Obama on the campaign trail…even McCain said “we dont torture”. It is not an extremely high standard to set…

Folktruther is right on this. Rendition is just a clever way to legitimatize state sponsored kidnapping. The way the nation of Israel absconded with Mordecai Vanunu for revealing their possession of nuclear weapons to the British press.

Folktruther, I am NOT making “a distinction without a difference”. YOU are in your attempt to muddy the waters against President Obama. I hope you can read better than you can spell/proofread.

This Harper’s article debunks the L.A. Times piece making the same argument as Adam Weishaupt:

<snip>“There are two fundamental distinctions between the programs. The extraordinary renditions program involved the operation of long-term detention facilities either by the CIA or by a cooperating host government together with the CIA, in which prisoners were held outside of the criminal justice system and otherwise unaccountable under law for extended periods of time. A central feature of this program was rendition to torture, namely that the prisoner was turned over to cooperating foreign governments with the full understanding that those governments would apply techniques that even the Bush Administration considers to be torture. This practice is a felony under current U.S. law, but was made a centerpiece of Bush counterterrorism policy.” <snip>

<snip> “The earlier renditions program regularly involved snatching and removing targets for purposes of bringing them to justice by delivering them to a criminal justice system. It did not involve the operation of long-term detention facilities and it did not involve torture. There are legal and policy issues with the renditions program, but they are not in the same league as those surrounding extraordinary rendition. Moreover, Obama committed to shut down the extraordinary renditions program, and continuously made clear that this did not apply to the renditions program.” <snip>

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/02/hbc-90004326

Harpers: “In the course of the last week we’ve seen a steady stream of efforts designed to show that Obama is continuing the counterterrorism programs that he previously labeled as abusive and promised to shut down. These stories are regularly sourced to unnamed current or former CIA officials and have largely run in right-wing media outlets. However, now we see that even the Los Angeles Times can be taken for a ride.”

Once again I point out:

Quote in the movie Gladiator: “You can’t kill him now (speaking to Caesar that wants Maximus dead). The mob loves him. You must first kill the name, then you kill the man.”

The difference between ‘rendition’ and ‘estrodainary rendition’ is the same as between imprisoning someone and ‘detaining’ ithem.  Public relations and perception management.

If Obama wanted to abolish American torture, which, like Bush, HE SAYS DOESN’T OCCUR, he would simply order that the US will now obey the Geneva Accords, which is the American law since we signed them, and anyone in the military, intelligence agences, police, private mercenaries, or anyone else will be proscecuted for violating them.  And we will not turn anyone over to other countries who do not do the same.  It’s quite simple.

Also quite impossible while continuing the War on Terrorism. It is being fought against Muslim populations that torture is necessary to terrorize and intimidate them.  Not to gain information.  So, Progcat, you are making a idstinction without a difference, the customary function of mainstream progressives.

Incidentally, Obama is no longer pursuing the Permanent War on Terrorism.  It is now the Enduring war on Terrorism and Extremism.  Just as the US bases in Iraq are not Permanent; they are Eenduring.  Doesn’t that make you feel better? 

Obama will close Gitmo—O its so difficult to do!- and continue the US torture program that existed before Bush came to power and legitimated lawlessness and a break with American tradition in his Bushite counter revolution.

*** THIS BEARS REPEATING PEOPLE! THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RENDITION AND EXTRAORDINARY RENDITION (BUSH’S KIND)***
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Courtesy of Adam Weishaupt, February 2 at 11:34 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Rendition and extraordinary rendition are two different things. Obama is eliminating extraordinary rendition, the practice of taking someone from one country to a facility in another country, keeping them in legal limbo for indefinate periods of time and usually involving torture as an interrogation tactic.

Rendition, on the other hand, has been practiced going back to Reagan and is basically extradition by force- to take someone from one country to another country where they are wanted for a crime. Torture and legal limbo are absent in the second definition.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Neocons are trying to muddy the waters, trying to destroy the support and popularity of Pres. Obama among Americans via the media.

Quote in the movie Gladiator: “You can’t kill him now (speaking to Caesar that wants Maximus dead). The mob loves him. You must first kill the name, then you kill the man.”

Jackpine-Bush did more than expand the program, he legitimated rendition and torture, along with arbitrary abduction, imprisonment, and lawlessness.
In fact a poltical counterrevolution in the traditional US power system. 

and, you are quite right, Obama is continuing it with a new public relations gloss.  As you say, the problem is systemic, and a “vital tool” of the War on Terrorism, as Obama’s intelligence advisor John Brennan stated publically.

Becaue the War on Terror is directed against populations, and it is necessary to intimidate and terrify a population to occupy it against their will.  Including the American population.

Adam, you didn’t read the article did you?

The only difference between the new and the old is that now we’re saying it won’t be “indefinite” and “we promise not to torture”.

It is not forced extradition in any way shape or form, because extradition would mean that a person had been charged with a crime.  This is still presidential authority to have anyone snatched off of a street anywhere for any (or no) reason and send them to a third country.

Plaster all the Walmart smiley faces on it that you want, it’s still a pile of imperial bullshit.

Obama is transfering tax payer $$$ to banks and not giving the taxpayer any shareholder rights or requiring the banks to change their boards, their actions or stop their huge executive payouts. Unlike Roosevelt, he refuses to address the mortgage crises directly,which would immediately stabalize the economy. Even though he promised a new way forward he has refused to end any of the horrific, bloody tactics like rendition, unmaned drones or secret detention camps, which tanked our already faltering rep! He has also stated that he will not free any detanies, which the CIA deems a risk.  He has not personally studied the facts or opened his mind to the truth that “military might” does not win the hearts of a people. Afganistan burried Russia and it will now become America’s 21st Century’s Vietnam.  Obama’s short-sighted ill-informed attitude toward Gaza and Hamas will bring us to the brink of another world war. Unfortunetly, in just days, our new president has shown us that he has no intention of truely changing the political game.  If no voice arises to speak truth to power and no peaceful mass movement arises to demand true change we will lose the first half of this century to war, poverty and global devastion.  I had such high hopes.  As they say “the truth is out there!” Nobel recipient, Krugman layed out a viable economic rescue package, Carter wrote a book on how to make a lasting peace in Gaza,and numerous experts on this very site have laid out both diplomatic and military plans to insure this country’s safety.  The information is accessable.  Is there a way to make him listen or look at the facts? Shouldn’t he be curious about other points of view and new possibilities?

Crimes we can believe in.

Now we know why Obama won’t be prosecuting crimes of the previous administration.  He plans on engaging in them.

Oh come on, Clinton was renditioning people too…just like he was wiretapping without a warrant.  I hate Bush as much or more than the next person, but these problems are systemic. (Yes, he expanded both programs just like he expanded Clinton’s order that the removal of Saddam Hussein was a foreign policy goal of the United States…but expansion is just that.)

Every time we take the easy route and blame Bush instead of actually addressing the problem we only make it worse.

executive powers relinquished willingly?  unlikely

Thanks to omniadeo for providing the link to Nafeez Mosaddeq Ahmed’s article. What is quite revealing about all of this is the notion that somehow someone could be elected to “clean up” the government. I think that is an illusion, because the policies adopted through the last half of the 20th century, and which continue today, are based on fraudulent notions of American goodness. As one of our ancestors once said; “government is a force like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master”. President Obama wants to be on top of that very same government. So it is not surprising that he speaks of moving forward, and chooses to deemphasize any prosecutions for the war crimes committed by the Bush/Cheney regime. You see he is now the one with the hand on the gun (and what a firearm the U.S. arsenal is, the weapons at the Commander-in-Chief’s disposal). He says he believes in America, whatever that is suppose to mean.

Obama is continuing the Bush political counterrevolution with public relations changes.  Instead of torturing people publically at Gitmo, he is resorting to the rendition program, having client states do it.  the US still has prisons around the world.

Approved by Human Rights Watch.  I didn’t realize they were a fake human rights group.

Tha LA Times article (as well as every expert who has testified before the Congress) says that this “extraordinary rendition” goes against human rights laws (except the now ambiguous Human Rights Watch—after their reaction to Gaza, I doubt their sincerity)and, DOES NOT WORK.

Is there some big problem with getting a warrent within 72 hrs? I dont get it. Is it worth the US humiliation?

Obama supported Geithner and Dashle both with obvious tax failures, and now supports rendition.  He is up to his knees in crud and it’s rising.  Any bets on how long it will take to cover his head?  Look to Washington for problems not solutions.

Things ain’t changing. obama is the corporate and izraeli whore I thought him to be when he caved into the aipac and with the bailouts. Nobody cares in this country, nobody is trying to find an actionable solution for any disaster we are witnessing and living through, there appears to be more respect for the criminals that have taken over this country lock stock and barrel in congress, the white house and wall street, god forbid what that seething cess pool of a pentagon is coming up with next. Plus there is on this site a post that w & dick’s wars of imperialism are here to stay, we may get out of Iraq but will we leave all those beautiful military bases? I doubt it.
And what, obama’s still got about 88 days left to get to 100 to see what else needs ‘fixin’. Oh, now we get the message from his selection for sec. of health and human services that the daschles are stepping back up to the trough with his ‘high profile lobbyist wife’ and his already a $220k payment from some department or corporation.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/02/01-1
But apparently the american people approve as not much is being said and the daschles are smiling like a couple of unsatiable whores.

For those who are willing to look into and then past the Obama fixation and through to the other side of all the endless, fruitless semantic games that too often pass for discourse on this site: progressive, liberal, right, left, extreme, moderate, wingnut, tinfoil hat, blah blah blah…Nafeez does it again:

http://nafeez.blogspot.com/2009/01/obama-regime-rotation.html

And closing guantanamo in a year gives him a year to change his mind.

Another secret plan to stop torture when he actually gets into office?  Wait a minute… he is in office… oh well.  Wait until his second term then…