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Jewish Council Splits With Vatican Over Holocaust Denials

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Posted on Jan 29, 2009

The Central Council of Jews in Germany has come to an impasse with the Roman Catholic Church after Pope Benedict XVI reintegrated four bishops into the Vatican’s fold, including British cleric Richard Williamson, who has taken a revisionist stance on the Holocaust in recent public statements.


International Herald Tribune:

Williamson said in an interview with Swedish television a week ago that he believed that there were no gas chambers and that no more than 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, rather than the six million widely accepted by historians.

“Under these conditions, there will certainly be no talks between myself and the church for the time being - I stress the words ‘for the time being,’ ” Charlotte Knobloch, president of the Council of Jews, said in the Rheinische Post newspaper. “I would like an outcry in the church against such actions from the pope.”

The Central Council of Jews confirmed her quotes.

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By Folktruther, February 4, 2009 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

No kidding, Allen Gurfinkle, Truthdig deleted your argument against the historical existence of the Holicaust?  I confess I’m astonished. I say all kinds of things here and they print them, although sometimes they delete something for no reason I can discern.  Try it again if you feel like it, and distuisgish sharply between what actually occurred and whether you think this was good or bad.  That is, between truth and values.

Pope Ratso in now arguing that the Mel Gibson bishop that has been de-excommunicated will be re-excommunicated if he does not deny his comments about what he regards as the historical truth.  Indeed, a Natzi sympathizer historian was actually put in prison in Austria for denying the existence of the Holocaust.

I don’t look favorably on Natzi sympathizers, my grandparents having been murdered by the Natzis for being Jewish.  And the Mel Gibson wing of the Church is anti-Semitic.  But we are living at a time in history when we are transforming our ideological worldviews, and telling the simple truth, especially given the emormous lies of mainstream history, is of special importance.

I have no doubt that those bishops are miserable bastards, but it is conceiveable that what they are saying is true.  they, and you, should be allowed to say it.  And since, as Finklestein has argued, the Holocaust is used as a religous argument to etnnic cleanse the Palestinians, it is especially important to clarify what actually occurred.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 3, 2009 at 7:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

re: Folktruther ..

Allen /Garfunkle, if you think the Holocaust was greatly exaggerated or didn’t occur, argue it. 

FT, of course, I did argue it with a pretty comprehensive post to this thread that I worked a while on, and the post was not published.  Holocaust denial is prohibited on all but a few web sites, even in the US.  On many sites the prohibition is explicity, on others it is de facto but not explicitly stated.  Perhaps the Truthdig* editors would like to post their rules, but I doubt it.

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By Folktruther, February 2, 2009 at 4:39 pm Link to this comment

Allen /Garfunkle, if you think the Holocaust was greatly exaggerated or didn’t occur, argue it.  Mainstream history contains so many lies almost anything is possible.  I have to say, however, that the turhers before you that have aruged it were dingbats.  You may not be.

The article, as far as I was concerned, was attacking the right wing anti-Semites of the Catholic church, the Mel Gibson wing.  they could be right wing bigots and the Holocaust could still have been exaggerated. It is used to justify Israeli oppression so there is a good reason that there might ba fake sanctity.  truthers I trust don’t think so.  But they, and I, could be wrong.

Anyone should be free to argue any historical position whatever.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, February 2, 2009 at 5:29 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Is there one person at Truthdig who will stand up for freedom of speech.

The article is about the worldwide condemnation of a man for doubting the holocaust, and you will not allow a post stating the case for holocaust denial.

You should change the name of the board to Truthdig*

*-ADL approved

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By Inherit The Wind, February 1, 2009 at 7:06 am Link to this comment

Ed Harges, January 31 at 10:29 am #

re: By Inherit The Wind, January 31 at 6:25:

I’m sure ITW is always relieved to have the easy job of trouncing some idiot who would deny the Holocaust, rather than deal with those of us who don’t at all deny the Holocaust, yet nevertheless refuse to endorse the phony Zionist pieties about what it supposedly means, and what it entitles the state of Israel to do to other people.

By Folktruther, January 31 at 9:03 am #

Good post, Inherit, you ignorant lout.
***************************************

Stop acting like such a putz, Harges.  Do you disagree with my assessment or does it just gall you incredibly that I could post something you are forced to agree with?  So you have to act like a schmuck and change the topic back to the only one you care about.

At least FT has a sense of humor about it. and recognizes that there are some topics on which he and I agree and he might as well make the most of it. I’m sure we both were LOL.

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 31, 2009 at 8:38 pm Link to this comment

An interesting article reflecting on Israel’s long-term dilemma!
======================
No Happy Ending
by Fred Reed

“The practical question regarding Israel’s recent invasion of Gaza is not “Who is right?” but “Can Israel last?”
As I write, Israel is using a military designed to fight hostile countries to fight a hostile population. In the modern world, this has seldom worked. To defeat a country you destroy its military and capture its territory. But Gaza has little military to destroy, no tanks or aircraft, and Israel already owns its territory. The IDF can invade but, afterward, the population will still be there, and still be hostile. Stabbing jello doesn’t buy you much.
Israel remains a small state in a region that intensely doesn’t want it. The rights and wrongs change nothing. Again and again, Israel lashes out, lashes out, against enemies that can be defeated but never decisively. And so the bombs fall on Gaza, on Syria, on Beirut, perhaps on Iran. Each war guarantees the next: 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982, 2006, 2009, world without end.
Israel today is not the country once dreamed, in which Heidelberg professors escaped from Europe would work the soil with their hands on kibbutzim and play chess and the violin at night. It looks more like what the professors fled. Brutal conflicts breed brutal people. Atrocities engender counter-atrocities, extremists come to the fore, and military solutions seem the only solutions.
Where is this going? How long can it continue? Another fifty years? A hundred? Say I, either the country finds peace with its neighbors or it goes the way of the Crusader Kingdom. We can stipulate that the Israelis are the world’s best people, or the worst. It doesn’t matter. You can die in the right as easily as in the wrong.
The Israelis appear to be trapping themselves in their own policies. They continue their annexation of the West Bank. The settlements are now so numerous and so populous that dismantling them is probably politically impossible for any Israeli government, which rules out a two-state solution. To control a large hostile population, you need harsh methods, which keep the population hostile. Arabs outbreed the Israelis, so that a proportionately declining number of Israelis rule a slowly rising tide of Arabs. Think: South Africa. How is this going to work? For how long?”
=============================
Read the rest following the link below!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed154.html

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By EyeSore, January 31, 2009 at 6:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It’s always instructive to watch how moral outrage may be either unleashed or reined in, all depending on the exigencies of realpolitik. A case in point:

When the South African Prime Minister, John Vorster, made a state visit to Israel in April 1976 it began with a tour of Yad Vashem, where the late Yitzhak Rabin invited the onetime Nazi collaborator, unabashed racist, and white supremacist to pay homage to Jews who perished in the Holocaust. Compared, say, to typical outcries from Jewish groups over even mild whiffs of Holocaust revisionism, no less remarkable was the bland equanimity both Israeli and Diasporan Jews also displayed toward the Vorster visit.

Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi recalls [The Israeli Connection, Random House: Toronto, 1987, p. x]  that “[f]or most Israelis, the Vorster visit was just another state visit by a foreign leader. It did not draw much attention. Most Israelis did not even remember his name, and did not see anything unusual, much less surreal in the scene [an old Nazi diehard invited to mourn the victims at a Holocaust memorial]: Vorster was just another visiting dignitary being treated to the usual routine.”  As a onetime Nazi collaborator, Vorster should, of course, have been arrested and tried once he set foot on Israeli soil—instead he was warmly welcomed by his Jewish hosts.

Vorster left Israel four days later, but not before signing several treaties between the Jewish state and Pretoria’s apartheid regime. A denouement Leslie and Andrew Cockburn describe in Dangerous Liaison [Stoddart Publishing: Toronto, 1991, pp. 299-300]:  “The old Nazi sympathizer came away with bilateral agreements for commercial, military, and nuclear cooperation that would become the basis for future relations between the two countries.”

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By mjt01, January 31, 2009 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Mr Baird,

Unfortunately what you seem to call the one big genocide is not the biggest, the first, the last, or the worst in recent times. I am not referring to deaths as the result of true states of war, but rather to mass slaughters of civilians, both by their own governments and outside invaders. There are many more, some quite a bit larger than that of Hitlers genocide, but here are enough for you to get the general drift.

The Congo Free State (1896-estimated at 3-22 million, with a mean amongst historians of 8 million dead.

North Korea—estimates of concentration camp deaths and executions run as high as 2 million.

The Ukraine 1928-32—10 million

Cambodia —2 million

Bangladesh—3 million

Mao’s Cultural Revolution—11+ million

and all too many more to believe that the WWII genocide of Jews to be a unique aberration of human behavior.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, January 31, 2009 at 1:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jim Yell writes ...

...As others have pointed out we know more than anything by the Nazi’s own records which in disciplined German manner were meticulously recorded.

Well, yes and no.  For example, the Nazis wrote death certificates for every registered prisoner that died at Auschwitz, and summarized the records in Death Books.

The Soviets captured these books, and hid them till the 80’s. If you think that’s odd, consider that the US/Brits are still hiding 60,000,000 documents at Bad Arolsen.

The Death Books are nearly, but not totally, complete. Extrapolating from the death books the number of deaths at Auschwitz was 150,000 to 200,000. I haven’t studied it, but these numbers seem very high.

The actual number of recorded deaths in the Death Books is approx. 65,000. More Roman Catholics then Jews died. Examples of the death certificates, and summaries of the Death Books are on the Auschwitz Museum web site. You can google it.

The Jews claim that there were many more unrecorded deaths. There is not a scrap of physical or documentary evidence for this claim. In fact, of the millions of captured Nazi documents, there is not a scrap of documentary or physical evidence for the holocaust. The 60,000,000 Nazi documents kept secret at Bad Arolsen for 70 years do not contain any evidence for a holocaust (from a published letter from the director).

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By Ed Harges, January 31, 2009 at 11:29 am Link to this comment

re: By Inherit The Wind, January 31 at 6:25:

I’m sure ITW is always relieved to have the easy job of trouncing some idiot who would deny the Holocaust, rather than deal with those of us who don’t at all deny the Holocaust, yet nevertheless refuse to endorse the phony Zionist pieties about what it supposedly means, and what it entitles the state of Israel to do to other people.

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By Folktruther, January 31, 2009 at 10:03 am Link to this comment

Good post, Inherit, you ignorant lout.

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By Jim Yell, January 31, 2009 at 7:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is strange that someone would still try to denie the holocaust. The reason many were so strong on recording the evidence was the knowledge that there would be people for reasons hard to understand who would still denie what happened.

Yes some brave Catholics and lots of gypsies and any number of gays were tortured and murdered by the Germans, aka Nazi.

As others have pointed out we know more than anything by the Nazi’s own records which in disciplined German manner were meticulously recorded. Please stop making things up as you go along.

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By Inherit The Wind, January 31, 2009 at 7:25 am Link to this comment

jr., January 30 at 2:45 pm #

Inherit the wind,

Nice dogma! It’s best to leave it to people to find, if possible, the truth for themselves, and not force-feed some revisionist theory after the fact.  Were hitler such a “bad guy” why did it take the bombing of pearl harbor to get this country involved in that war and, that had nothing to do with hitler, nor the “holocaust”.  Hell, roosevelt had to go so far as to subvert the law to get ammo to london, even as it was about to fall to germany; america took great steps to stay out of that war, in despite of what the history channel will tell you now.

***********************************************

It’s not revisionist to simply lay out the dates of Hitler’s life along side major events in that life and then do simple arithmetic.

You said Hitler railed against German democracy that he endured at age 15.  Non-disputable dates show that German Democracy wasn’t created until he was 29.  How is that revisionist?

Why didn’t we go to war until Pearl Harbor? Simple: we weren’t attacked until then.  Unlike George Bush, FDR was not able to commit us to a war without a Declaration of War from Congress.

Hitler not involved in the Holocaust? Better stop reading those holocaust denier books—you’ll find that the supposed “citations” are to other holocaust deniers, and so on, until you find there’s really only one or two sources, and their data is fallacious.  Even when Germany was under HUGE distress due to the 2-front war, Hitler personally refused to release railroad cars from being used to ship Jews to camps so that they could instead be used to carry materiel to the front lines.

This is just nonsense from those who are trying to rehabilitate Hitler, his racist and anti-democratic ideas.  After all, if you can “prove” Hitler wasn’t an homicidal and genocidal maniac, then you can start arguing that his other positions and policies—like an “Aryan” dictatorship—should be re-examined.

Despite the deniers’ claim, Hitler, the Nazis, the Holocaust are some of the best documented events in history.  Historians don’t LACK documents, they suffer from too many documents!

If you were to make such claims that there was no Holocaust to General and President Dwight David Eisenhower, he would probably bitch-slap your sorry ass into the ground!  He was there, he saw it, and he was the CIC for Europe.  If ANYONE had a reason to play it down, and certainly not allow it to be exaggerated, it would have been Ike, with his German background and name. He did just the opposite.

junior, you’re not even in the junior varsity when it comes to history.  Go back to your heil’ing buddies and be glad you live in the USA where you have the freedom to hold and express such idiotic and offensive views.

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By Abe Bird, January 31, 2009 at 7:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

nefertiti; Who denies your right to write about Ruwanda, Darfur, Algeria and so? I hope any way that you are not gonna blame the Jews again (-:
You can talk a lot about genocide http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/483/521.html I’m sure that no one from the Islamic world will agree with you.

john bartalini;  You deny the one and big holocaust ever done in history, so why you jump off to other ‘holocausts’? Be relating to the actual debate between these Jews and the immoral behave of the Pope!
As for the “other holocaust”? Who deny them? Why do you think that your assumption has some value in this context? 
What “Palestinian holocaust” you have in mind? The Arabs are those who murder and bomb Jews just because they are Jews. The Jews have all rights and duty to protect themselves, especially that they have the power now, something they haven’t 65 years ago.
120 millions have been killed but they or their government chose to go into the war and fight some foe. All nations had armies to fight and defend themselves, but only Jews were without a state, they were no army, they where separated among nations and lived under their ‘gracious’ protection. The Nazis and their supporters all around Europe hated the Jews just because he is a Jew even with out knowing whom they are gonna slaughter. The deep anti-Semitism, As you show us now too, is a unique phenomena which reflects the genuine relations between the Jewish people and gentiles. That’s why the 1940-1945 Holocaust is a very unique one.
I can assure you that if Israel was existing at that time the Holocaust wouldn’t happen because then Jews had a place to flee to and because Jews had sure a well strong army to take part in WWII.
This is the historical lesson that you and your kind should know.

Ed Harges; The paradoxical truth is that you still think that it is justify smearing Jews and murdering them but they have no right to react with power. ‘Nice’ observation.

Allan Gurfinkle; The Nazis didn’t document all the murders and dead in the concentration camps. Most of the people, those who immediately by their arrival at the camps, were rushed into the death chambers never had been registered. And they were 4 million Jews of whom 1.5 million were kids.
Folktruther; The difference between Jews and the Roma (Gypsies), socialists, liberals, communists, mental and physical Defectives is the total attitude against Jews. Some Romans, Liberals and so passed the war under the Nazi boot and survives. Jews that were caught by the Nazis were send to the concentration camps.
Ethnic cleansing is made by Arabs against Jews in Palestine. They promote their aim by suicide bombing and sending rockets and missiles towards civilians. Israel fight back only when terror attacks are made and against those who generate them. Arab civilians hurt only because Hamas use them as a shelter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoi0TGyx_uA

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By Allan Gurfinkle, January 31, 2009 at 6:58 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Doubting the holocaust is not unique to Bishop Williamson. During WW II Ben Hecht, a Hollywood screenwriter, was busy informing the US about the holocaust, when a number of prominent Jews approached FDR about speaking out on the subject. Roosevelt’s response was that he didn’t “have time to be bothered with saving the Jews from a mythical pogrom.” Hecht wrote about it in his article ‘A Child of the Century’ which you can google.

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By nefertiti, January 31, 2009 at 6:43 am Link to this comment

what about what happened in Rwanda ? 
or the Vietnamese at the Hands of US occupying forces
what about the hundreds of thousands of Aborigines that died at the hands of white british in Australia .  or the hunreds of thousands of the Kikuyu at the hands of the british . ?

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By nefertiti, January 31, 2009 at 6:38 am Link to this comment

There has been a holocaust in Algeria no one talks about .  on may 8th 1945 , France butchered 45000 Algerians in a couple of days because they came out to celebrate freedom. (France convinced them if they joined the french army to beat the Nazis it would grant them freedom. so they came out to celebrate only to be bombed from the sky.

France Killed One million and half Algerians in 7 years of war , and many more during the 132 years of occupation , you dont get to read about these crimes in the Press . Algeria was only freed in 1962

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By cyrena, January 30, 2009 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment

•  “I would like an outcry in the church against such actions from the pope.”

This was worth a laugh out loud. I hope she holds her breath waiting.

~*~*~

By john bartalini, January 30 at 2:28 pm
•  “Holocaust denial? The real denial is not in some fool saying something never happened. The real denial of holocausts is in their complete erasure from all history. Why are all these other holocausts being denied? Why the pretense that there was only one holocaust in the 20th Century?

John, I’ve been asking this same question on this same forum for years, but the REAL DENIAL continues here every day. ALL Holocausts, (and particularly the Holocaust of the Native Americans, which most closely resembles the Palestinian Holocaust) have been completely erased (denied) from all history.
This is (at least in part) why the Convention for the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, (AKA The Genocide Convention) has been basically ineffective. Nobody will agree to call Genocide what it is when it’s happening, (or after) so they don’t prevent or punish it, and so it is allowed to continue.

Hitler KNEW this, and even said so, in reference to the Armenian Genocide. He noted that nothing had happened to the perpetrators of THAT crime, and so he knew he could get away with it.

Little has changed.

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By jr., January 30, 2009 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

Inherit the wind,

Nice dogma! It’s best to leave it to people to find, if possible, the truth for themselves, and not force-feed some revisionist theory after the fact.  Were hitler such a “bad guy” why did it take the bombing of pearl harbor to get this country involved in that war and, that had nothing to do with hitler, nor the “holocaust”.  Hell, roosevelt had to go so far as to subvert the law to get ammo to london, even as it was about to fall to germany; america took great steps to stay out of that war, in despite of what the history channel will tell you now.

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By john bartalini, January 30, 2009 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

By m, January 30 at 6:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

120 million humans were killed in holocausts during the 20th Century. The 1900s opened up with the mass slaughter of some 10-13 million in what was then the Congo. The same region closed out the 20th Century with another mass slaughter that is ongoing today. Cambodia, Armenia, the Ukraine, China, ...

Why is only one holocaust ever mentioned? It is not the first, last, largest, or even though this is difficult to quanlify, it is arguably not the most horrific of these mass murders. That belongs to those slaughters where children were used to select and carry out the massacres of the victims.

Holocaust denial? The real denial is not in some fool saying something never happened. The real denial of holocausts is in their complete erasure from all history. Why are all these other holocausts being denied? Why the pretense that there was only one holocaust in the 20th Century?

“m”
There is only “one” difference between ALL “other” holocosts and that of the Jews of WWII.  In a single word…“JEWS”. Their doctrine is that other human beings are not as “important” in their thought processes and “promises from GOD”, as are other inhabitants of the earth. As the self-proclaimed “special/religious” people, they’re more important and, through extension, the historical murders/genocides imposed on them are much more heinous and wrong than those imposed on humans that are not a part of the “them”. Their exclusionary model of “us” vs. “the others” breeds this “warped” idea of humanity and of human opinion.
The whole concept of mass anniliation, for whatever its purpose, is absolutely against human understanding re: the “live and let live” morality. I will not comment on the “Gaza situation” as I don’t have the inclination (it tends to sicken me).  That is, except to say with TOTAL conviction, “are you effin kidding me”? Slaughter cannot be explained nor rationaized through relgious BS or “he threw a rock at me” so “i blew his head off and killed his family” to “teach” him a lesson.  Nor can it be justified,by any measure used, that a civilized societies can adhere to as “justifiable action/reaction’.

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By Ed Harges, January 30, 2009 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment

The Holocaust was sickeningly horrible and crushingly sad on a staggering scale; whatever the details, we all know that.

But in the meantime, the psychopathically hateful ethnic supremacist state of Israel has for a long time made such egregious use of the Holocaust as a license to kill and steal, I can’t get too upset about a bit of revisionism. It’s just hard for some people to get their heads around the paradox of the Holocaust: was it really the worst crime of all time, and yet its primary victims have learned nothing from it except that violent ethnic nationalism is just fine, as long as it’s YOUR violent ethnic nationalism? Yes; that’s really, almost unbelievably, how it turned out.

This paradoxical truth is so difficult to hold in one’s brain, that lesser minds are tempted to entertain the notion that perhaps the Holocaust didn’t really happen as advertised.

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By Allan Gurfinkle, January 30, 2009 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jim Yell, writes ..

.....The documentation of what happened under the Nazis is impeccable

This is not the case.  The Soviets liberated Auschwitz and they captured the camp documents which included death certificates for the prisoners that died, and Death Books that summarized the data.  They kept the documents hidden until the 80’s.  If you think that is odd, the documents captured by the Brits/US, more than 60,000,000 are still being kept secret at Bad Arolsen.  The Auschwitz documents, while not complete, show that approx. 65,000 died, this has been extrapolated to 120,000 to 150,000 total.  The documents show that more Roman Catholics, 32,000 died than Jews 30,000.  These are the documented facts.

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By Folktruther, January 30, 2009 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Richard East—The Israrel-Palestinian struggle is NOT based on apartheid-it is based on ETHNIC CLEANSING. The Israeli-US power system is now fully determined to replace the Palestinians with Jews by stealing their homes, land, resources and transferring them somewhere else, or massacuring them.

That said,Fadel, there really IS anti-Semitism in the world, largely instilled by historical Christianity which Pope Ratso now supports, just as he supports anti-Muslimism. The Mel Gibson wing of Catholocism, to which these Bishops belong, is explicitly anti-Semetic, along with their other religious bigotry.

That said, it is quite true that there have been many Holocausts in the 20th century that have been covered up or downplayed in the Wesstern media, not least the murder of perhaps a half million Roma (Gypsies) along with the Jews, socialists, liberals, communists, mental and physical Defectives, etc.  The US, like Israel, is based on ethnic cleansing, the genocide of millions of Indians.

However, anyone has a complete right to question any historical Fact whatever, including, and perhaps especially, the Jewish Holocaust.  They appear to be mostly dingbats but if we are going eliminate digbats from the political discourse it will deprive us of real, if occasional, truth.  Even on TruthDig…but I mention no manes. 

This is essentially important in the US which historically has systematically repressed deviant truth under the guise of promoting Freedom of Expression.  The only way Zionists can promote their ethnic cleansing is by censoring and repressing the horrors it represents, and this strain of thought is represented in repressing Holocaust deniers.  They should be allowed to deny away, and let the people judge.

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By richard east, January 30, 2009 at 10:41 am Link to this comment

Fadel,

Thank you for bring to my attention the Sunday’s 60 minutes. I was very surprised that a major news outlet (CBS) presented the Israel/Palestinian ‘conflict’ for what it truly is: Israeli Apartheid.

Thank you Bob Simon, and keep up the honest and accurate reporting (and thank you for not simply regurgitating AIPAC talking points).

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By Inherit The Wind, January 30, 2009 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

jr., January 30 at 2:48 am #

Personally, i’m not convinced hitler ever knew anything about the “holocaust”.  It, no doubt, just seemed easier for history to blame a dead man who can’t defend himself, especially when the survivors have never been kind to history, were his mortal enemies and knew he had become anti-zionist from a early experience in his youth as he described in his book: “my struggle” about his struggle to survive in democratic germany at the age of 15.
*************************************************

I hate deniers like this, filled with false facts.

Here’s reality:
1) Hitler was born in 1889 and therefore was 15 in 1904. 

2) At that time, Germany was a monarchy under the Hohenzollerns—William II was Kaiser.  It was not a democracy, but has been sometimes described as Monarchical Constitutionalism, quite different than a Constitutional Monarchy as the Monarch retained enormous power, not just influence.

3) Hitler was still in Austria and an Austrian under the Hapsburg Monarchy that ruled Austria-Hungary.

3) When the War began, in 1914, Hitler was 25.  He became a courier and by the end of the War, in 1918, when he was now 29, he emerged a corporal.  According to the records he was actually good at it.

4) Democracy didn’t reach Germany until 1918 with the founding of Weimar Republic, which was to rule Germany for 14 years—2 years longer than Hitler and his Nazis reigned in their “Thousand Year Reich”.

5) Hitler’s book “My Struggle” (Mein Kampf) details his hatred for Jews, his inane and insane descriptions of them and outlines his plans for “Aryan” dominance in the world.  Of course, Hitler never realized that the TRUE Aryans are Persians—they even name their country as such—Iran (Aryan).

But junior is clearly a trolling Holocaust denier putting up any garbage he can to try to create doubt of its existence.

As for the Native American genocide—I don’t know of any Jews denying it happened.  But the responsibility in the United States falls on us Americans.  In Mexico, it’s on Mexicans.  In Canada, Canadians.  Does it fall on the Church? Probably, but I’ve never heard a debate on that subject. 

But I cannot imagine any Jew denying the 400 year-long slaughter of Native Americans in what is now the USA. I might contest the numbers a bit, but they would still be astronomic and horrible.  However, MOST of the deaths are well-documented as due to the diseases Europeans brought that none of the native peoples had been exposed to in 10-15,000 years.  Europeans couldn’t kill Indians as fast as the diseases like small pox and measles could.

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By Jim Yell, January 30, 2009 at 9:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is a rather odd thing that Christianity and Islam which both plagerized the Jews for religious text should have such a false view of Jews. As the focus of Islam is on the Arabs and the Arabs are as lest the brothers of Hebrews this revisionism seems astounding.

The documentation of what happened under the Nazis is impeccable it includes many of our military leaders who saw that the crimes were photographed and even that the German Populations in the area where the crimes were committed were forced to do walk thru where they saw the thousands of still unburied bodies of starved Jews in heaps. To denie it is not just a freedom of speech, but is a continuation of the behavior that led to the crimes in the first place.

I have worked around people who spent their abused childhoods in these camps and lost siblings, parents and grandparents to a crime that boggles the mind. These are not the figments of imagination that some Christians and Moslems would have us believe.

As to the Catholic Church their sensitivities are right suspect. Just in recent memory I read the declaration by the Catholic Church apologizing for the Inquistition. It was worthy of George Bush “I am responsible, but it is someone elses fault” Yep, impressive and contrite.

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 30, 2009 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

This is a supplement to a previous post in which I alluded to the ugly Zionists, enemies of the Truth,  raising another hell against 60 Minutes for the segment in the link below, in which it exposes Israel’s apartheid, brutality and savagery!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAgyv2MKyI&feature; =email

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By Fadel Abdallah, January 30, 2009 at 9:38 am Link to this comment

The big picture that emerges from this issue is the continued desire of the politicized Zionist Jews to control world’s opinion and free speech and bend it to their effective technique of blackmailing. So the Pope’s crime in this case was to re-instate some of his bishops without getting the order on this issue from the Zionists.

In fact, the Pope was wrong when he, in the first place, excommunicated those courageous and free thinkers bishops, who exercised their rights to freedom of speech. What he has done now is an act of righting a wrong, even if it angers the fanatic Zionists.

This episode, if it proves any thing, is another ugly example of the minority fanatic Zionists to manipulate and control freedom of thought and speech in their favor. One can call this “thought terrorism!”

This sickly Zionist mentality of self-righteousness,“Chosen people,” self-importance and desire to control must be stopped and resisted by all free thinking people of the world.

Just coinciding with this news is another example of this sickly Zionist mentality for censorship and control; their outrage and ferocious evil propaganda against 60 Minutes program for airing a segment revealing their apartheid policies and savagery in Palestine.

I am sick and tired of this sick fanatic religious / national minority continued attempt to control the world!!

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By Jason, January 30, 2009 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

People should stop using “revisionism” like it’s a bad word.  All properly done history is revisionist.  New evidence comes to light, and the story is revised.  The problem is unfounded revision.

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By davidperi, January 30, 2009 at 8:54 am Link to this comment

Might be some re-connection to the Arab or Islamic world…he may want the vote there.

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By Tim Kelly, January 30, 2009 at 8:27 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

In the midst of Israel committing genocide but denying they are doing so, the Central Council of Jews in Germany has decided to bring attention to those that deny the Holocaust.  How rich in irony - so much for the Holocaust being “a warning to all.”

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By m, January 30, 2009 at 7:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

120 million humans were killed in holocausts during the 20th Century. The 1900s opened up with the mass slaughter of some 10-13 million in what was then the Congo. The same region closed out the 20th Century with another mass slaughter that is ongoing today. Cambodia, Armenia, the Ukraine, China, ...

Why is only one holocaust ever mentioned? It is not the first, last, largest, or even though this is difficult to quanlify, it is arguably not the most horrific of these mass murders. That belongs to those slaughters where children were used to select and carry out the massacres of the victims.

Holocaust denial? The real denial is not in some fool saying something never happened. The real denial of holocausts is in their complete erasure from all history. Why are all these other holocausts being denied? Why the pretense that there was only one holocaust in the 20th Century?

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By Allan Gurfinkle, January 30, 2009 at 6:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bishop Williamson’s statement retarding the holocaust is on youtube and you see it there.  He speaks carefully and precisely, citing the evidence that has led him to doubt the official version of the Holocaust.

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Purple Girl's avatar

By Purple Girl, January 30, 2009 at 6:24 am Link to this comment

Big surprise that the Nazi Youth re instated the Holocaust Deniers.
Having been raised a Catholic, I was taught the Jews Killed Christ, not the Romans. Perhaps because I was a ‘Roman Catholic’...a lttle to close for comfort for the Church? I left the Catholic church at 9, so investigating their claims(teachings) were of no interest.It wasn’t until I saw a History Channel show that I realized WHO was really responsible- I’m Now in my 40’s!!!
In Fact during my Catachism classes Christ was never referred to as the ‘King of the Jews’- wouldn’t want any confusing references to baffle my developing Catholic mindset.
I don’t believe Nostradamus was a ‘Seer’ as much as a man of Logic.The Vatican has murdered and oppressed Humanity since Christianity was highjacked by Peter and Paul, Logic would dictate the Truth would be revealed sooner or later, It is the Great “Deceiver”, and It’s Pope the so called ‘AntiChrist’. Can’t Burn Us now for Speaking the truth, too bad so sad lil’ Nazi Ratz!

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By Big B, January 30, 2009 at 6:23 am Link to this comment

Let’s face it, while nazi germany was less than kind to the jews and the other “subhuman” races of eastern Europe, Nearly all European nations and the US as well, were complicitous in the slaughter of the holocost. We in the US, and Britain gleefully looked the other way as the meat grinder grinder ran. Hell, the only reason we comitted to the massive and costly invasion of D-day was not to rescue people from concentration camps, it was to try and beat the Russians to Berlin.

Before WWII, the jews were very unpopular in Europe. Collective caucasian guilt gave them their own nation. The US need for a foothold in the Middle East keeps them in power. When we can all admit our past predjudices and indescretions we all may be able to move past this whole “jew-gentile” hate club.

The world has been waiting for almost 2000 years for this kind of reconcilliation. We may not have to wait much longer, for the oil will run out soon, and the western support for Israel will end approx the same time. That may sound cynical, but it is after all, about the money.

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By jr., January 30, 2009 at 4:24 am Link to this comment

The primary reason i question hitler’s involvement with the said holocaust has to do with the bunker found under nuremburg after the war; built by three generals and loaded it with the crown jewels of germany, christian artwork, stain glass, paintings, et cetera but, without adolph’s ever knowing about it.  They started building the self-supported bunker before the war and, they weren’t working alone; and let’s also remember, hitler never knew!

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By jr., January 30, 2009 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

Personally, i’m not convinced hitler ever knew anything about the “holocaust”.  It, no doubt, just seemed easier for history to blame a dead man who can’t defend himself, especially when the survivors have never been kind to history, were his mortal enemies and knew he had become anti-zionist from a early experience in his youth as he described in his book: “my struggle” about his struggle to survive in democratic germany at the age of 15.

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By Shift, January 30, 2009 at 3:35 am Link to this comment

Pope Benedict said he had repeatedly visited Auschwitz, the site of the “brutal massacre of millions of Jews, innocent victims of blind racial and religious hatred” and said the Holocaust “should be a warning for everyone against forgetting, denying or diminishing its significance.”

There are two disconnects here:

One, The Catholic Church through the issuance of the Papal Bull Inter Caetera, is responsible in part for the deaths of one hundred million Native Americans and to this day has never apologized.

Two, Jews refuse to engage in an open recognition of the deaths of one hundred million Native Americans in the American Holocaust, preferring instead to exclusively concentrate on the Jewish Holocaust and the sympathy it engenders for them. 

Both Catholics and Jews are guilty of hypocrisy.

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