Howard,

Just to further your educsation, the Gaza settlers destroyed most of the greenhouses as they left Gaza, even though they were paid (by Jews in the US) to hand them over to the Palestinians.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/international/middleeast/15mideast.html?pagewanted=print

Had they not been paid, they would have destroyed all of them

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2005/August/middleeast_August527.xml&section=middleeast&col;=

I hope this helps.  You seem to know very little about this.

The U.S. pays to destroy Gaza.  Now, other countries get to pay to rebuild it.  Absurd.

From the previously posted link:

“After killing hundreds of women and children, Israel was the good guy again, by declaring a unilateral ceasefire that Hamas was certain to break. But Obama will be smiling on Tuesday. Was not this the reason, after all, why Israel suddenly wanted a truce?”
Robert Fisk, January 19, 2009

While president-elect, and having no “power”, Reagan managed the Iran-Contra affair quite to his satisfaction.  While president-elect and having no “power”, Nixon was up to his neck in back door negotiations with the North Vietnamese delegation to the Paris peace talks.

Cyrena:

I agree re troublesum.  The one thing he simply cannot accept is that Obama is not president yet, so not only is his “power” is limited, particularly re foreign policy, but, as he keeps saying “there is only one president at a time.”

Folktruther:

While you are correct about Holder’s comment re one provision of the Patriot Act, leave it to you to ignore the rest of what he said:

“I don’t think there’s any question that there is the need for the Patriot Act, but I think there’s also the need to re-examine the Patriot Act and see how it has been enforced and whether or not…there are things we need to change…When you look at some of the things that have done under the spirit of the act, where you detain citizens without giving them access to a lawyer, where you listen in on attorney-client conversations without involving a judge, these are the kinds of things that have been done in the name of the Patriot Act by this administration that I think are bad ultimately for law enforcement and will cost us the support of the American people…I think in a lot of ways, the problem that I had with the enforcement of the act is that this administration said essentially trust us. We’re not going to involve judges, we’re not going to report to Congress on what we’re doing, and I think our history has shown us that we are best when we operate as people governed by the law as opposed to putting our trust in people…I think we need to make better use of some tools. First up we need to enhance the ability of people in law enforcement to go after the money launders. We have people in other countries, people in this country who still have an ability to get money to terrorist organizations in a way that is unacceptable and ultimately weakens the act. You have to deal with this whole question of secrecy and the way in which the administration has conducted itself. You need to involve judges. If you’re going to look at business records or library records, this should not be something that’s simply done by the executive branch without the involvement of judges. If you’re going to listen in on attorney/client conversations, as we did in the Clinton administration, the difference was we asked a judge to authorize it as opposed to simply saying we in the executive branch by ourselves can do this without any supervision by a judge. You also need to report to Congress on a regular basis to let them know what you’re doing under the act…”

Taken in context, his comment in support of that single provision hardly weighs against his overall attitude and approach to the Act itself, or even to that particular provision.

Peace.

cyrena,
You have the same hysterical reaction to criticism of Obama that the most partisan of Bush’s supporters have had over the last eight years.  You sound like Ann Coulter when you get going on your verbal rampages.  And you say I need meds?

re:  nosefetr

60 years? yes.  Pal’s could have agreed 60 years ago to build a nation like Israel did and they would have had their state.  Don’t want one, apparanetly, if Israel is going to be their neighbor so they said no. and have fought tooth and nail agains Israel’s existence since. 4 wars by neighboring countries trying to destroy Israel, and thousands of suicide bombers.  Barbarism is the word you used and it fits the actions of those who cannot accept reality and go onward. Instead don’t go onward and learn to think its is normal to go get the virgins, instead

Anyone with 2 ears knows the Liberty was accidental in wartime zone; just like 4 separate U.S. military investigations agreed it was.  But the bombing of the U.S. marines in ‘83 in Lebanon by Hezballoah was no accident (if ya’ want to bring up old irrelevant happenings)

And when Israel left Gaza, they left behind multi-million dollar farms and greenhouses for the gazans. Hamas destroyed every inch of them.  Unreal.

Just like they shot up the crossings so that 30,000 Pal’s who worked in Israel in 2000 could not go there to work anymore.  Unreal.

RE:  Steven

Get your chronology in order.  Having left Gaza in 2005 lock, stock, and barrel; there was nothing in return except sending over many rockets by Hamas.  Over 6000 of them in time before Israel would finaly act.  Didn’t make the news horizon too much the five years of missles and rockets, but southern Israel was suffering. Diplomatic efforts and pleadings and a mild blockade over time met more bombardment from Hamas.

Hamas cannot govern. Disaster for its people. More interested in killing Israel off, then leading its people upward and onward.

Maybe with this respite, gazans will insist on nation-building.  Arafat stole 1-3 bilions of monies appropriated for his people.  Hope Hamas uses its money donated to it for good use instead of weapons.

cyrena,
I have to say that you have quite a history of defending the indefensible here at TD.  Every stab in the back that Obama delivers to the progressives who voted for him, is, in your mind, part of secret plan to do the opposite once he gets into office.  As for Obama’s involvement in the cease fire negotiations, there is a history of presidents elect getting involved in such back door diplomacy.  I have no doubt that he was involved in this.  I only regret that he didn’t get involved sooner so that lives could have been saved. 
As for my hatred of Obama you are wrong there also.  I voted for him as the lesser of two evils - the only choice we are ever given.  Hatred is a self destructive emotion and I have none of it.

Israeli assault injures 1.5 milion Gazans!
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=14082

re: Noseferrai

Get hold of yourself , man; speak and write a little more rationally.

Israel Left Gaza in 2005. Gone, Kaput. All settlers, all soldiers.  Give Hamas and PA time to start nation-building. Something concrete. Ya’ know. Education, factories, farms, jobs, etc. 

white phosphorus is for visibiity. Not a weapon.  And not used on civilians, no matter what junk is reading or assuming.

Of course, Hamas is blind and refuses to do anything of the start.  It uses its energies and monies to go after Israel.  Do Iran’s bidding. Only friend gazans have is Israel, who yearns to help them if they stop FIRING MISSLES into Israel and show signs of recognizing Israel and do/make some signs for normalcy.  hamas just does not see it.

We know the arab nations, who put them in Gaza, have shunned all responsiblity or help to alleviate the miserable state the gazans are in. In fact, they promote and encourage it.  They don’t want to see a viable, modern. society-healthy arab country next to them.

Have any of us forgotten that early last year the US gov arranged the sale of massive amounts of munitians to most of the Gulf states and, of course, over 30 billion dollars of freebies to Israel.

The post WWII US policy towards the middle east is alive and well. Cultivate the hatred that Jews and Arabs have for each other, and arm them to the teeth! And, of course, hope that either side will ever grow a brain and figure out that the west has been using them as a geopolitcal means to an end to keep the oil flowing.

I wish there was a higher purpose involved here. I wish that all the blood spilled in the Middle East in the last 60 years wasn’t for naught. It’s all about keeping the oil flowing so that the western democracies can maintain their standard of living.

Once the oil runs out, and there is no more money to made by the military industrial complex, the Jews and Arabs will have to throw rocks at each other, because if there is no profit to be made, we won’t send those animals so much as a free twinkee.

According to Robert Fisk, the cease fire is mainly about Barack Obama’s upcoming ceremony:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-so-i-asked-the-un-secretary-general-isnt-it-time-for-a-war-crimes-tribunal-1419289.html

HOWARD:

Why would anyone believe you when lying sacks of shit from Israel are throwing white phosphorous on innocent civilians while at the same time they have the gaul to come on TV and say they are not?

What lying, morally bankrupt types of human beings are you?  I wonder how much YOU would like to have white phosphorous dropped on your ass so you know what it looks like to have your family slaughtered in front of you while you burn to death.

I’m sure you change your pathetic tune.

Maybe Palestinians could build a nation if you barbarians get the fuck out….finally.  Oh well..I better stop dreaming.

As if the sickening genocide will vanish so that we can party for a few days…..count me out.

By eileen fleming, January 18 at 5:58 pm #

And so, Hamas remains.

Israel, with the 4th most powerful military in the world-thanks to the USA-

With all its might; one-ton bombs, drones, tanks, infantry, and thousands of soldiers—
========================================
Yes, eileen fleming, despite the deaths and destruction brought on the out-numbered and under-armed Palestinians, they put up a courageous resistance and forced Israel to sue for cease-fire, despite the fact that they declare on every occasion that they don’t negotiate with the so-called “terrorists.” So the 10-thousand Hamas members, traditionally vilified as terrorist by both the U.S. and Israel, emerge from this as the legitimate freedom fighters with whom colonialist Israel was forced to sign a cease-fire.

If the lessons of the courageous resistance were left to manifest themselves naturally, then the Palestinians are today closest to the liberation of their land than they ever been in the last sixty years!

So, the blood of the martyrs was not spelled in vain; it will nourish the tree of freedom and liberation till it yields the desired fruits in a a glorious coming day of victory. Then this victory will bring peace!

If Israel really wants its captured POW back, it is going to have to release Palestinians it has kidnapped.

Gawd, will you guys stop focusing on Obama! Nobody else is!!

Must be individual obssession…

You really know how to hurt a guy, Cyrena.  I’m against Obama just as much as Troublesum and even developed a little theory as to why he is selling out the progressive rank and file so much, although not why he is doing it so quickly.  And yet you give Troublesum all the credit. 

Of course I just think he is a front man for Zionist neoliberal imperialism, but then that’s all that Bush was, after he abandoned the Compassionate Conservatism of the campaign.  Obama just abandoned Hope n Change to continue Bushite policies. 

Yesterday his new AG Holder expressed support for that section of the Patroit act that allowed the secret police to examine the books and papers American’s buy in bookstores, etc.  Even if they are not suspected of Terrorism.  Issueing a gag or on the sellers and librarians not to tell the spied upon.

But I’m sure you have a good explanation why that you will explicate in one of your filibusters.

By troublesum, January 18 at 3:57 pm

“Obama saw to it that Israel wouldn’t rain on his parade.  Of course he could have done something about it weeks sooner.”

Ya know troublesum,
You have been absolutely the MOST reliable subject in an extended experiment I’ve been conducting here at Truthdig.
In examining your posts of over the past several months, you’ve presented quite a pathology that many would find interesting.  Over the past months, you rarely (if EVER) make a comment on ANYTHING here, that does NOT include a reference to Barack Obama. It’s like you are TOTALLY OBSESSED with the man.
It NEVER MATTERS what the article is about, or what the discussion is about, and you never need any prompting. So no matter what the article is about, (the last earthquake in Southern California..or fill in the blank with anything)YOU will find a way to make it about Obama.

But THIS is the best example I’ve seen from you in a while. It just like JUMPS RIGHT OUT.

Here we have an article about declarations of ceasefires from both Israel and Hamas, and for anyone who actually read the article; it provided some very pertinent details as to the nature of these ceasefires,  and how things stand for the moment. This is information that most of us who’ve watched these atrocities with such dread might be looking for and/or interested in. Above all, there is that overwhelming sense of what this will mean for those innocents who’ve been terrorized for nearly a month, 24/7. At least that’s something that SOME normal people might take from this article/report.

But, in YOUR case…(and ironically, YOURS is the first comment posted) the *VERY FIRST WORD* of your comment is…*OBAMA*.

Pretty damned amazing, but oh so expected…from YOU! Is there EVER a time when the man is NOT the sole focus of your cognitive process? Can you even THINK of anyone else? Are you capable of considering ANY subject/topic without making a connection to Barack Obama?

Just curious. I honestly can’t imagine the kind of nightmare that you live in with that much hate, and an obsession that you obviously can’t control. I really can’t.

Sad.

utter nonsense.
If not rockets and missles from Hamas, then there would have been no repsonse from Israel.

Maybe now Hamas can try nation-building instead of spending its energy trying to do away with Israel.

And so, Hamas remains.

Israel, with the 4th most powerful military in the world-thanks to the USA-

With all its might; one-ton bombs, drones, tanks, infantry, and thousands of soldiers—

Wrecked hell upon 1.5 million human persons packed into a narrow strip of land with no way to escape, no where to hide and terror reigned in the so called holy land.

Olmert et al claim that the “operation” was necessary to stop Hamas from firing missiles into Israel. 

This is a lie! 

Hamas time and again said that it would stop the missiles if Israel opened the boarder crossings.

Israel refused. 

Israel chose the way of Siege and Collective Punishment rather than open dialogue and opening the boarder crossings.

Rather than annihilating Hamas Israel has increased its popularity amongst Palestinians.

NO LONGER can Israel play the perpetual victim, for the truth of their brutal attack is all over the Internet.

But good can always come out of bad, and things are changing as demonstrated by the growing numbers of international academics and Jews who have spoken out against Israel’s attack on Gaza as they recommend BDS ACTIONS!

learn more:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org

http://www.wearewideawake.org

So, if, Hamas is “still very much in control” (as the bbc article says), what was ahieved?? It was certainly a public relations disaster…

True, troublesum—-it might have held little weight with Olmert et al, but, it would have been a moral issue that the world could have looked to the uS, as finally “coming around”.

Obama saw to it that Israel wouldn’t rain on his parade.  Of course he could have done something about it weeks sooner.