Surely, we can all find some love in our hearts for Rick Warren.  Wake up America. Not only has Pastor Rick likened gays to pizza and pedophiles, but he is making up his own reality in Syria and Uganda as well. Please enlighten yourselves with the following articles:

http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2009/01/the_truth_about_rick_warren_an.php

http://www.slate.com/id/2207554/

I think we are now in need of a PR campaign from Sir Elton John who is one that really understands how to deal with the AIDS epidemic. Perhaps he can appear on Larry King Live again and elighten everyone out of their Rick Warren disillusionment.

I am afraid it only gets worse.  He has deemed himself America’s new ambassador to the Middle East and Muslim world.  For one, he would like to assassinate world leaders like Ahmadinejad who was elected by the Iranian people.  Read the article:

http://iamjunius.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/rick-warren-supports-call-for-ahmadinejad-assassination/

Right now, Pastor Rick is taking a break from blamming the media for his grand faux pas,while Obama orchestrates a new red herring for the sake of his (Lincoln politics). Yes, that’s right folks enter the gay Bishop Gene Robinson to speak at the last minute at the inaugural ceremonies.  That ought to fix things, and he’s not asking Bishop Robinson at the last minute he planned to ask him all along it just happens that the timing coincides with pissing off the gay and lesbian community.  Hummm.  Gosh I feel alot like Dorothy from the wizard of Oz going to see the wizard (Obama) on inauguration day. Wasn’t that during the great depression too, and that’s right the Wizard turned out to be a fraud.  Why on earth in the geopolitical climate we live in (especially after the Bush Adminstration) would Obama choose a xenophobic, homophobic, bigot to pray over him at the inauguration. I know, so he can bring us all together, and its working right? But wait, Obama is not done yet, he will ultimately use the Rick Warren controversy to his advantage by proclaiming that bigotry simply is unacceptable to the American people ushering in more of the New Obama Culture.  The timing is still questionable, and remember he is being a politician.

Robert——Thanks for the response.  As far as dying
goes, I have no fear of death.  I am just trying to
reach Osama and others to educate them about some
tenets of Christianity.  I will check to see if our
local library has the book you recommended.  Today,
I watched the trailer for the DVD advertised on this
site “The God Who Wasn’t There.”  It poses some
interesting questions which I will reflect upon
over the next few days.  Sorry, I did’t get back to
you sooner.  I fell asleep watching TV earlier and
just woke up.  I’ll play around with this computer
for awhile and hope I can get back to sleep.

To Jackpine Savage——-I am not a Catholic.  In fact, I don’t accept any particular denomination
even though I was raised in a Methodist Church.  I
consider myself non-denominational.  One year, when
I was unemployed and living in Greenville, South
Carolina, I became sick and went to the Veteran’s
Hospital for help.  During the intake process the
lady ask what denomination I was.  I replied, “Christian.”  She looked down a long list
of denominations and replied, “I don’t have that one
on here.”  I started laughing and replied, “I think
the Holy Spirit just spoke through you.”  I have read
many books that were omitted by the Catholic Church.
I haven’t read the Book of Thomas yet.  Revelation
12:7,8,9,and 12 read:  “There was war in heaven:
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon: and
the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not:
neither was their place found any more in heaven.
The great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole
world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels
with him.  Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of
the sea!  for the devil is come down unto you, having
great wrath; because he knows that he has but a short
time.”  The devil and his angels are spirits.  They
cannot be seen just as radio and television waves
can’t be seen.  As spirits they go about influencing
the minds of people.  That’s why we see conditions in
world today. Chaos! It also explains the antichristian teachings and behaviors of people,
especially preachers on television.  I don’t believe
the preachers, especially radio and television
preachers, realize they are being influenced by evil
spirits.  Some TV preachers are cunning and deceptive.  One that comes to mind hardly ever talks
about Christianity anymore.  He talks mostly about
politics and news events for a few minutes.  Then,
he will introduce someone who was suffering but after
they sent him some money things got better for them.
He never interviews someone who sent him money but
things didn’t get better for them. A little deceptive. Looking at world events I am afraid we
are heading for a time of great tribulation.  Obama
nor any other person will make things better.  I tried to make things better by spending $500 to a
person to make a video for me and place it on google.
It is titled “osama bin laden a christian response/
expanded edition.”  I have contacted many Christian
and non-christian organizations asking them to help
me translate it into the Arabic language and place
it in a place where Osama,arabs, and jews might see
it.  I got no help except from Truthdig.  I noticed
they have two articles with reference to my video
underneath the listing of my video on google.

Christian96,

I most certainly do not blame Jesus for what anyone does in his name, my issues arise from what people do in his name while insisting that doing it in his name makes it correct.

I won’t argue about the revealed nature/truth of the Bible; that is a matter of belief and i have no intention of trying to change anyone’s belief.

But we must consider the formation of the book that we call the Bible.  Decisions were made about which of the many books to include or omit.  There were political as well as religious factors involved in the decision making.  Is it your assertion that the revealed truth is limited to what the bishops of the five seas decided some 1500 years ago?  Are you Catholic?

I will assume you know that most of what they decided to omit was written by (passed on from) people who actually knew and lived with Jesus.  Again, i’m not quibbling over whether you have the revealed truth, only asking if you have the whole truth.

As it stands, you have access to only what the government of Rome considered acceptable.  How would Jesus feel about that? 

And none of this even gets into the issue of translation.  The Bible wasn’t written in English.  Even the Greek text is not original in many cases.  You’re basing the idea of revealed truth on how translators have rendered the words.  Can you be sure that they got it right, that they had no ulterior motives?

You pointed out that the Church is not the same as Christ; i agree with that.  The Bible is a book of the Church, as Jesus wrote nothing nothing down.  To examine the Church and the Book critically has nothing to do with denying the message/teaching of Christ.  The Church only says that it does for fear of losing control over its own believers.

Cyrena hints at the possibility of a Pipe Ceremony in “the Rose Garden.”  Seems likely to this old Savage, though, that she would be sufficiently edified by a “nativeamerican” performance, when actually, as stipulated below, it’ll take a genuine free wild Indian to have it be anything other than more-of-the-same-old political stagecraft.

Us surviving representatives of the breed are here-and-there all over Turtle Island, but we are careful not to make “spectacles” of our Lives.  So if Barack Obama is going to “surprise” even us, he’ll have to begin by taking the time and making the effort to look-us-up.

Hemmed-in as he is by those with ideological and institutional and electro-mechanical agendas essentially incompatible with the organic function of Humanity within the Living Arrangement of our Mother Earth, it will require him to first find a Way out of the virtual “stockade” being systematically erected to CONtain him.  That there is one we don’t doubt.  It is his own capacity to recognize and avail his self of it that looks from here in Indian Country like a real long-shot.

No blame, just fact.

HokaHey!

To Jackpine Savage——I am not sure what you mean
“less oblique.”  You say none of the verses I
quoted are the words of Jesus.  2nd Timothy 3:16
reads, “All scripture is given by inspiration of
God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof,
for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
In reference to your question about freedom to choose, a person is free to choose, however, they
will reap the consequences for their chooses.  I
heard on ABC News tonight there has been a significant rise in sexually transmitted diseases.
People are free to choose but many are suffering
for their choices.  I hope you didn’t imply I try
to force my beliefs on others.  I don’t.  I try to
clarify the Bible’s position on issues when I think
they need clarification.  As for others trying to
force Christianity on people throughout history,
don’t blame Jesus for what people do in the name of
Jesus.

Christian96,

Those are somewhat less oblique than the Romans verse.  I very much doubt that the early Christian community would be in favor of homosexuality…for a variety of reasons.

But none of these verses are the word of Christ, and they were written in (and for) a very different time.  And besides, this is about getting into the kingdom of heaven…is not a person free to choose to follow?  If a person is not free to follow, what value is there in his following?  And i understand the directive to testify, but to testify is not the same thing as forcing others to behave a certain way…which is where this always leads.

You sound like a sincere believer.  You might be interested in what i will write to Folktruther.

Ft,

There are many varieties of the Christian experience; we are only familiar with the most vocal of them.  I would say that the ones who are capapble of impressing you are those that try to live like Christ rather than with his blessing.  You generally won’t hear prescriptions on how to live from this type of Christian because they’re focusing on how they live.

And the varieties of Christian thought are more available than ever; the varieties that never found the blessing of the State.  To read them (The Gnostic Gospels Eliane Pagels for example) is to have a whole new world open up, and since the fundamental belief is the same it requires no crises of faith, conversion, etc.  I think more Christians have read some of these texts than you or i would imagine.  In them, the suffering Christ becomes the dancing Christ (for example).  That’s going to produce a psychological change in the believer; it will do the same to a non-believer.

And since many of these alternate texts were outside the purvey of the Church (by nature of them being deemed heresy), they didn’t worry so much about what Paul told the Romans, etc.  They talk about the spiritual, rather than the political; the mystical, rather than practical. 

It frustrates me that Christians limit themselves to so little of their own tradition, because it is so rich.  The problem goes back to the Church as a societal organization that takes into account its own survival as much as it considers the salvation of the congregation.  Jesus was a revolutionary.  He was threatening to the Israelite establishment and he is threatening to the Christian establishment.

Ed Dobson tried to walk like Christ…he raised the ire of his own church by doing so.

However, the Old Testament is a better read than the standard New Testament…story wise.  It’s okay to skip the A begat B begat C begat D (for pages on end) and the lists of “thou shalt nots”.  Job, Jonah, Ruth, Ester…man, that book is full of great stories.

To Jackpine Savage—-I am glad to see you are open
to discourse.  So many people aren’t.  They have
decided they are right and refuse to discuss anything.  The Bible makes other references to
homosexuality indirectly in the New Testament.  For
example, Webster’s New World Dictionary defines
fornication as “sexual intercourse between unmarried
persons,” which would include heterosexuality and
homosexuality.  1st Corinthians 6:9 reads, “The
unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous,
nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall
inherit the Kingdom of God.”  There are other New
Testament verses against fornication.  The 9th chapter of Revelation discusses the wrath of God
upon sinners in an attempt to get them to repent(turn
away from their sins), but verse 21 reads, “Neither
repented they of murder, sorceries, fornication or
thefts.”  Speaking of sorcery, since President-elect
Obama wants to include all Americans, I am surprised
he didn’t ask someone associated with witchcraft to
say a prayer.
Personally, the Bible has created a burden for me.
I am a single male and not gay.  I use to have sexual
intercourse with many women.  I wanted to get married but couldn’t find that princess I was looking for.  I finally met her in 1972.  We got
engaged Dec. 23,1972.  However, a few months later,
I lost my university teaching position because of
what I was teaching about sexuality in my Adolescent
Development course.  I wasn’t a Christian at the time.  Catholic nuns were bring tape recorders to
class to tape my lectures.  I am sure they took their
tape recorders to university administrators.  I had
a decision to make.  Would I marry my princess and
subject her to the misery that might come from marrying a man who would probably lose more jobs or
would I break the engagement and hope she would find
a man who could give her a more secure life?  I broke
the engagement July 3, 1973.  That Fall I located
another job teaching Educational Psychology at another university.  That year the so-called energy
crisis occured with long lines at the gas pumps.  I
was raised in a coal mining community where my father
worked 40 years in the mines.  I informed my classes
the oil crisis was a hoax and that oil companies also
owned coal mines.  I informed there was a union coal
contract coming up in December and that the media
would use the oil crisis hoax to manipulate religious
coal miners into approving a contract which was not
in their best interest.  It happened just as I had
predicted.  The university did not renew my contract.
I was unemployed for 15 months.  During that time I
went to Washington to speak with Sen. Byrd about
what had happened and how the contract neglected
coal mining widows.  His response was, “You can’t
please everybody.”  He then escorted me out of his
door.  That Fall I located another job teaching
Educational Psychology at another university.  On
November 7, 1976(my parents 38th wedding anniversary)
I appeared on a local talkshow to discuss why wealthy
people neglect poor people.  The next day I was
informed by the Dean my teaching contract would not
be renewed.  I never was able to locate another
university teaching position.  Now, I am 68, disabled, and alone.  I quit looking for a princess.

Jackpine, I am ashamed to say that I’ve never read the Old Testiment, the Jewish Bible, all the way through.  The New Tesitment is much better, it’s so short one can zip through it in a couple hours.  But the Old Testiment is so lengthy, repetitive and boring it discourages even motivated truthers like myself.

I get the central message; God is great and the reader is a miserable worm, the hearwarming message of the three Great religions based on its perverted and barbaric values.  But what I don’t understand is how the message stands through historical time when God ordered so many holy massacres and sacred atrocities.  Howe can this be accepted as God’s Word by the occasionally progressive religious, such as Eileen or the Berington brothers.  Inquiring minds want to know.

The reason I ask you is that your distinction in mystical experiences between real personal change and attributing to changes in outside reality legitimates spiritual change.  I will credit you for it in the stuff I am writing.

For instance, Bishop Robinson’s boss is one very smart lady.

Obama needs to get with the times.  There are lots of clergywomen out there.  Why wasn’t one of them chosen?

I should add that in the full context of Romans, Paul was probably not talking about homosexuality; at least not as a lifestyle or sexual orientation.

Romans was written to/for newly converted Christians who were backsliding into pagan worship.  He was probably talking more about that than homosexuality, though it should be considered that homosexuality was no big deal in Rome.  Furthermore, he might have actually been referring to some pagan celebrations that tended towards the orgiastic, particularly as Rome became more and more decadent.

All this is only to illustrate the subtlety and complexity that we’re actually dealing with, rather than the cut and dried bullshit that “Christians” try to make the Bible into.  For all i know Paul was talking about homosexuality and only homosexuality…but i can’t say and neither can Rick Warren and his brokeback, er saddleback dominionists.

Ok, Christian96, i’ll bite…

I’m going to assume that since you’re a Christian, you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ sealed a new covenant with God, changing the relationship that existed between God and the Israelites as described in the Old Testament.  Though lessons and prophecy of the Old Testament obviously still stand as valid, what God (in the Old Testament) finds acceptable in human behavior is not. After all, Jesus died for our sins.

Can you point to anything other than Romans 1:26-27 in the New Testament that prohibits homosexuality?  I hope so, because if the “Christian” community is basing all this bullshit on one sentence uttered by Paul, of all people, then your religion is rotten to the core.  Paul was a salesman who spent his time with the persecutors of Jesus before he saw something worth selling to Romans.  He may have been an epileptic.  He was almost certainly unstable…if not bat shit crazy.

Even Peter warns (3:15-17) that Paul was a nut and that one had better be careful interpreting his epistles.  Never mind that you’re interpreting the Greek phrase “vile affections” (standard translation) as “homosexuality”.  Are you sure that’s what Paul meant or is that how you feel and you need Paul to back you up?

You can’t just say that the Holy Bible says something.  It’s a beautifully complicated book weaved into history…will you “believers” quit ruining it?  Please?

And, no, i’m not a believer.  I just appreciate literature, philosophy, history and spirituality.  You have a treasure trove of all of those in your Books (and there’s more Christian books that you ignore completely), but instead you use the Book for nothing better than bashing in the heads of others.

Seriously, too many of you take the Lord’s name in vain every time you call yourself a “Christian”.

By TAO Walker, January 12 at 2:18 pm #

This old Savage will be more favorably impressed with Barack Obama when he asks some free wild Indian to do a Pipe Ceremony on the south lawn of the White House.  But nobody here on the Rez is holding their breath for that.

HokaHey!

~~~~

This is a beaut TAO!! I’d be pretty impressed with a Pipe Ceremony myself! But hey, I don’t think we should rule it out. You never know with Obama, (unless you’re a Sage Old Indian, in which case you should know that he could surprise even you! )

Meantime, this made my day, in a very ‘I told ya so’ kind of way. I think the caption with the photo is perfect. Checkmate indeed!

I was even more impressed after reading the comments from the Bishop, like this…
“In recent years, and especially during the inaugurations of President George W. Bush, ministers gave explicitly Christian prayers. Bishop Robinson said he had been rereading inaugural prayers through history and was “horrified” at how “specifically and aggressively Christian they were.”
Bishop Robinson said, “I am very clear that this will not be a Christian prayer, and I won’t be quoting Scripture or anything like that. The texts that I hold as sacred are not sacred texts for all Americans, and I want all people to feel that this is their prayer.”
He said he might address the prayer to “the God of our many understandings,” language he said he learned from the 12-step program he has attended for his alcohol addiction.”

A prayer for ALL Americans, because he understands that the texts that HE holds as sacred, are NOT ‘sacred texts’ for ALL Americans, and he wants ALL people to feel that this is their prayer.
Then this, which confirms the above..

•  “In many ways it just proves that Barack Obama is exactly who he says he was and would be as president - which is someone who is casting a wide net that will include all Americans.”

This IS exactly what Obama has been saying all along, but the chronic Obama bashers will continue to bash and play the lynch mob group think mentality, because they can’t see even half an inch below the surface of anything other than the group think mentality.

Don’t give up on the Pipe Ceremony. It could happen too, even if it’s not at the Lincoln Memorial. (would the Rose Garden be acceptable to you?)

Rev. Warren only opposes gay marriage because the
Holy Bible opposes homosexuality.  I believe the
writer of this article knows that. I question the
reason the writer of the article even made the
statement?  The Episcopal Church must be reading
a different Bible.  When the disciples of Jesus
ask for the signs of his second coming, the first
response of Jesus was, “Take heed that no MAN deceive
you.  For many shall come in my name, saying:  I am
Christian and shall deceive many.”  I wonder if the
Episcopal Church read that part of the Bible?

This old Savage will be more favorably impressed with Barack Obama when he asks some free wild Indian to do a Pipe Ceremony on the south lawn of the White House.  But nobody here on the Rez is holding their breath for that.

HokaHey!