I was not trying to present an instruction manual of the Quaker religon. I was only trying to present that, when I went to a Quaker College, I did not have religion forced down my throat, just because I was no longer a beliver. I still have friends, ex-profs from there, and I appreciate very much that they act on their religion instead of trying to convert people, and, actually, do not talk about it much.. I often forget. That is what a personal religion should be like.

I think everyone would agree that arguing reilgion is very fruitless. I obviousy am not acquainted with all the facets of Quakerism, so I guess I shouldv e gone to protests at the School of the Americas by myseklf—it just didnt come up.

Oceana is right. This is way off topic, and I had a visceral reaction to an evangelical—-i dont think it is hard to figure out how they got a “bad name”. Meant no personal offense to any person.

Let’s remember the human face to this tragedy, a tragedy resulting from the pathology of our society… (2/3 of our economy is based on consumerism)

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/1/wal_mart_worker_ crushed_to_death

Oceana:

“My two cents, whatever it is worth.”

It is worth its weight in gold.  And more.

Thank you for bringing us all back to earth, and back on topic.

Peace.

Please stop these emails! 

It is only feeding into the frenzy and worse than that because I am reading emails posted by people who respect this website yet are turning against one another that I find truly disheartening. 

Let’s not forget the tragedy in all of this and the real issue at hand that an innocent human life seeking to make ends meet within an uncontrollable economy that is affecting all of us has caused needless lose of a precious life. 

Another issue rightly needs to be debated as recently discussed within these emails and I ask that someone write that article to pick up this rightful discussion, but lets not do it on the back of this article that reports a human tragedy regardless of the innate cause that delves deeply into the pathology of our current society.

We are all strangers to one another, but yet our   posted names have become familiar to some extent whether in agreement or in opposition - but in my opinion a few of these emails have gone too far.  It is painful to read some of the correspondence and it is only exemplified considering the loss of life that this article hi-lites.

Our challenge in this global society is being able to connect in a way never before with those we never would have such direct communication.  I think Facebook has some value in that it brings in some sense a personal aspect to a very impersonal realm.

Please - do not comment if you disagree with what I’ve stated, just continue on….Or write a main article discussing these other deeper issues that are relevant and ask Truth Dig to post in order to open another forum.

My two cents, whatever it is worth.

KDelphi:

“Actually Quakers…were much more involved in abolition of slavery.”

I said, “Southern Baptists and Northern Protestants.”  Ultimately, Quakers are Protestants. [As I am sure you know, “Protestants” were literally those sects that “protested” certain elements of the Catholic Church, and broke away: Quakers came out of that movement, even if they do not think of themselves strictly as “Protestants.”  In any case, I was including Quakers in “Northern Protestants”. As an aside, I went to a Quaker summer camp for three years as a child and have very fond memories of the experiences.)

Anarcissie: “Actually, I don’t think religion ‘causes’ much of anything; I think people select religions and interpretations of religions in order to legitimate things they do, very often violent crimes, just as they select class, race, political party, culture and so forth for the same purposes.  The alleged content of the religion seems to have very little to do with behavior; there is no rational path from the Beatitudes to the Nicene Creed to Torquemada to Sarah Palin.  So I think on this KDelphi is as wrong as you are.  Religion isn’t the cause of man’s humanity to man, i.e. murder, slavery, terror, destruction, torture, and so on, but mainly one of the excuses for it.”

Brava!  On this we can agree.

“I will accuse organized religions generally of one thing, however: they have done their best to stand in between humans and the world of the Spirit, by constructing enormous prisons of doctrine, ritual, hierarchy and bureaucracy.  “Woe to you, lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.” (Luke 11:52).”

We agree again!  This was Jesus’ main criticism of the Temple Priests, and why he labeled them “vipers…fools…hypocrites…blind guides.” And I have always been firmly opposed to the majority of the “mainstream, organized, heirarchical” capital-C Church.

There is an old saying that “Religion is about laws, rules and behavior; faith is about a relationship with God.”  Too many “faith” leaders actually teach the former, often at the expense of the latter.  And while I believe there is a place for doctrine and dogma in their proper contexts, I have always believed (and taught) that faith comes first, and is the far more important of the two.

Ultimately, I think you and I agree about more than we differ on.  And even KDelphi and I have some common ground despite the differences.

Peace.

Anarcissie: “Now, I’m sure there’s nobody like that around here, but until the lying is cleaned up, the sort of comparison you want to make is going to be invalid.”

Maani: ‘Not “invalid,” only questioned.  However, the actual issue was whether, as KDelphi stated, “religion is the cause of more death and suffering in the world than anything else.” ...’

No, it’s invalid, as I said, because it’s fundamentally dishonest.  Events have too many dimensions to be subjected to a pretense of being measured with a single number, and in any case the events are framed differently depending on the class, nationality and so forth of the people involved.  I pointed both of those things out and gave examples.

Actually, I don’t think religion “causes” much of anything; I think people select religions and interpretations of religions in order to legitimate things they do, very often violent crimes, just as they select class, race, political party, culture and so forth for the same purposes.  The alleged content of the religion seems to have very little to do with behavior; there is no rational path from the Beatitudes to the Nicene Creed to Torquemada to Sarah Palin.  So I think on this KDelphi is as wrong as you are.  Religion isn’t the cause of man’s humanity to man, i.e. murder, slavery, terror, destruction, torture, and so on, but mainly one of the excuses for it.

I will accuse organized religions generally of one thing, however: they have done their best to stand in between humans and the world of the Spirit, by constructing enormous prisons of doctrine, ritual, hierarchy and bureaucracy.  “Woe to you, lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.” (Luke 11:52)

But I suppose one could argue that humans will full, primitive access to the “ancient heavenly dynamo” would be even worse than they are.  Things must be kept under control….

Maani—How do you differentiate an “atheist” from ta “religilus” killing, unless it is teh Crusades,etc. Thanks, Anarcissie, but, stating statistics to a preacher is useless.Maani, you guys MUST believe certain things, or, you would not be ministers. I do not have to. The churches built schools, etc. , sure, but that was 250 yers ago—now they just get in the way—that is MY OPINION! It is subjective, and, cannot, therefore, be “proven”. I think that charity allows govt to get away with doing less.

Actually Quakers (I went to a AFSC colleg for my BA), (and others)were much more involved in abolition of slavery—they had no problem with my agnosticism.. But, this is a silly argument. Perhaps I was too personal—I shouldve said , I do not like evangelical christian churches. I just dont. I have past experiences with them.

Who the hell is defending Mao, Stalin, Hitler? Not me.

I think the US govt is entirely too differential to christian churchse. I think we would be better off if they were not…sorry. Nothing personal. because of past experience…

Anarcissie:

“Now, I’m sure there’s nobody like that around here, but until the lying is cleaned up, the sort of comparison you want to make is going to be invalid.”

Not “invalid,” only questioned.  However, the actual issue was whether, as KDelphi stated, “religion is the cause of more death and suffering in the world than anything else.”

It is true that I was simply using “raw numbers” to make my case.  Thus, it is irrelevant whether the atheist leaders I cited dealt with “larger populations.”  In fact, you could have made an equally or greater case against my position by taking the other road: i.e., that because Crusaders et al dealt with smaller populations, the actual percentage that they killed may have been higher.

Ultimately, neither argument is relevant.  The numbers I cite for both “religious” killngs and “atheist” killings are the result of over 20 years of research on this extremely particular issue.  In that regard, I assure you my numbers are as accurate as it is possible to be.

However, I did not even begin to note all the good that religion (and particularly Christianity) has done: in the U.S. alone, it has created more schools, universities, orphanages, community centers, etc. than even the government has.  And internationally, the two largest aid organizations - the Red Cross and the Salvation Army - were founded by Christians, and the latter is still run by them.  [N.B. Medicin sans Frontieres was also originally founded by Christian doctors, but the organization has become more secular.]  And these organizations provide aid to everyone, regardless of race, creed, ethnicity, faith, sexual orientation, etc., and are always the “first in” and “last out” during war, civil strife, disease, natural disaster, etc.

As well, Christians were at the forefront of virtually every major social movement in the U.S.: abolition (Southern Baptists and Northern Protestants), child labor (various), suffrage (Northeastern Protestants), and civil rights (Southern Baptists again), just to name the most obvious.

I could go on, but this is a subject for another time and another thread.  Suffice to say that KDelphi’s original statement - to which I was responding - does not hold water.

Peace.

Maani: ‘KDelhi:

Since you insist…

“I think that religion is the cause of more death and suffering in the world than anything else.”

According to most scholarly estimates, the number of people killed in all the religious wars, Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burnings, etc. in all of history is ~50 million to 75 million.  The number of people killed under just five atheists - Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot - was ~150 million IN ONLY 60 YEARS!  [N.B. Hitler was no more “Christian” than I am Serbo-Croatian: he only “used” Christianity to further his ends.] So we can put that to bed….’

Oh, come on, that’s the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.

But even suppose the Usual Suspects you have there did kill 150 million people—and may I say your estimate is unambitious—you must grant that Stalin, Mao and Hitler had much greater opportunities than the Crusaders and so forth because they dealt with much larger populations.

In any case, these death-estimates cannot be compared with one another because the ways in which the body counts are computed differ depending on the religion, race, class, location, and period of both the perpetrators and the victims.  For example, Stalin, a Communist, is accounted to have killed several million Ukrainians through allegedly inducing and aggravating famine.  However, the liberal Christian British oversaw the death or exile of half the population of Ireland in the mid-19th century, a feat comparable with Pol Pot’s extravaganza, and perhaps 20 million people in India around 1900.  Are they, too, mass killers?  Of course not.  The sad events in Ireland and India just happened to happen.  We do not attribute them to Christianity, liberalism or capitalism.

Historically speaking, Christians have been great liars as well as imperialists, warmongers, slavemasters, terrorists, génocidaires and so forth, right down to the people yelling “Kill him” at a Sarah Palin concert.  Now, I’m sure there’s nobody like that around here, but until the lying is cleaned up, the sort of comparison you want to make is going to be invalid.

KDelphi…

You’re scary…

“I see just as many agreeing as ‘attacking”. Even those that disagree, seem to be able to not take it as personally as you. I dont address you personally. Why are you so obssessed. I dont think it is about anything but OBAMA and the beloved DEMS for you. That is why you hate me and anyone who disagress with HIM, YOU or the sell-out DEMS..”

~~~~

Now, who’s obsessed here KDelphi. Do you REALLY think that I ‘hate’ you??? WHY would I hate you KDelphi? I don’t even know who the hell you ARE!!! I’m never gonna meet you, because there’s no way I’d ever ‘willing’ travel to Dayton, Ohio, and you’ve already told us that as broke down, pathetic, and poverty stricken as you are, you’re stuck there forever. It’s equally improbable that we would ever even communicate on an individual level, because I’m selective about the crackpots I deal with individually. (we can’t choose our relatives, but you’re not a relative). Yes, you told us all that you were disabled. In fact, over the past several months, you’ve blasted everything there is to know about you (whether we wanted to or not)on the world wide web.

And, in all honesty, I don’t really CARE about whether or not you went out on the day after Thanksgiving KDel, or much else about your pathetic life, if only because we just keep hearing the same shit over and over from you. It’s really unfortunate about you being disabled and all, because being disabled myself, I know it requires some adaptations along the way.

But sometimes I just wonder if your family didn’t insist on you having on-line access, just so they wouldn’t have to put up with you. I mean, it’s gotta be way cheaper than paying for your psychoanalysis and legal meds. So they just let you harass strangers on line with your ‘spells’ and frequent gibberish or dramatic tirades that generally come back to how miserable YOU are, regardless of the topic at hand.

By my approximation KDel, you’ve racked up a few hundred grand in free therapy over the past several months, and it hasn’t done you a damn bit of good!!! What’s up with that?

Never mind, that was a rhetorical question. I really don’t wanna know.

Meantime, whatever you’re using to get high seems to be failing you. I’d ask the dope man for my money back if I was you. But of course, I’m not. (thank God).

KDelhi:

Since you insist…

“I think that religion is the cause of more death and suffering in the world than anything else.”

According to most scholarly estimates, the number of people killed in all the religious wars, Crusades, Inquisitions, witch burnings, etc. in all of history is ~50 million to 75 million.  The number of people killed under just five atheists - Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler and Pol Pot - was ~150 million IN ONLY 60 YEARS!  [N.B. Hitler was no more “Christian” than I am Serbo-Croatian: he only “used” Christianity to further his ends.]  So we can put that to bed.

“You said that you were an evangelical preacher. From what I remember, that means that you believe that Jesus is the “son of god”, no? Hmmm…”

If you actually read my posts, you would see that I have admitted to believing so.

“I do not like evangelical preachers.  Politicians kiss their asses, they get gov’t tax money and have made our country backward and primitivisitic.”

SOME evangelical preachers are like this, not all.  In fact, the number of fundamentalist evangelicals is decreasing as the number of moderate evangelicals (such as myself) is growing.  And none of the evangelical preachers that I know is “backward” or “primitivistic.”  You should avoid making such broad-brush generalizations - about ANY group.

“They try to teach kids that there were baby dinosaurs on the Ark and that the planet is 5000 years old.”

Again, SOME do, not all.  Every minister I know (and I know hundreds) believes in evolution (with what is usually called “first cause”), and none of them is anti-science.

“They don’t respect sepraration of church and state.”

And again, SOME don’t.  All of the ones I know or have come into contact with in my professional life support the separation of church and state.  And I am one of about a dozen evangelicals who has signed the American Atheists’ petition for the absolute separation of church and state.

“You call people liars and hypocrites. I think that that is being provocative and obnoxious.”

I call it as I see it.  That is neither provocative nor obnoxious.  It is simply observation.

“...and do not say that this is a ‘Christian country.’”

I would never do so, because it is not.  Most of the founding fathers were theists and deists, not Christians.  However, it remains true that the PRINCIPLES on which this country was founded (legal, social, etc.) were based on Judeo-Christian beliefs.

Peace.

Maani—

I do not want to debate religion because, to me, god does not exist. There is nothing to debate. I think Jesus was a prophet who has been turned into a profit.I think that religion is the cause of more death and suffering in the world than anything else.

You said that you were an evangelical preacher. From what I remember, that means that you believe that Jesus is the “son of god”, no? Hmmm…

I do not like evangelical preachers.Politicians kiss their asses, they get govt tax money and have made our country backward and primitivisitic. Their “charity” only gives the govt an excuse to not provide what we (the entire public, esp. after Wall St) have already paid for. The faith based inititiatives takes money from our urban public schools,. They try to teach kids that there were baby dinosaurs on the Ark and that the planet is 5000 years old. And they want me to pay for it (yes I pay property taxes—my pension paid for Wall St). They dont respect sepraration of church and state.

You call people liars and hypocrites. I think that that is being provocative and obnoxious.
There is no other country on the planet where preachers could get away with the status they enjoy here—and do not say that this is a “christian country”.

KDelphi:

“Aw, c’mon Maani - didn’t you go into religion to debate religion?”

Now you are not simply a hypocrite, but a liar.

YOU were the one who started this by asking me what I felt Jesus might think about capitalism, remember?  Yes, I noted that I am a minister - in response to the question of Christmas and Jesus’ birth.  But it was YOU who decided to “go into religion” when you asked me for an opinion on a religious topic.  I had NO intention of continuing down the “religious road” after my comment to Arius (which only YOU seemed to have picked up on).

I think you actually enjoy being obnoxious and provocative.

Peace.  (Yup, even in my annoyance with you…)

Aw cmon Maani—didnt you go into religion to debate religon? I didnt ask you if you were a preacher—you offered it.

Again, you only give opinion—my interpretation of the Bible may be completley differnt than yours—unless he’s “talking to you”—like Dubya…

I think it is stretching it, at times, to cal Jesus a prophet (profit)—or, at least to profiteers that follow! Again opinion…

I had to read the entire bible twice for catechism. I know it. I just think it is very open to interpretation.You dont. So what…did god say you were right and I was wrong?

KDelphi:

Had I known that your query to me was simply a way to get involved in a debate on religion, I would not have provided any response.  I consider you highly disingenuous for doing this.

However…

First, Jesus’ tosssing the money-changers out of the Temple was not an “economic” reaction, but a spiritual one: he had no problem with vendors per se, only with vending and money-changing within the walls of the Temple.

Second, if you do not understand Jesus’ statement about rendering unto Caesar, then you clearly know little about your Bible.  Read the statement in context (i.e., what precedes it and what follows), and the meaning is unambiguous.

Third, you say, “It is also a matter of opinion whether Jesus Christ was any more the son of “god” than Marx or any other prophet.”

Where did I state that Jesus was the son of God?  I happen to believe that, but I did not make any statement to that effect, so you were simply setting up a straw man.  As for Jesus vis-a-vis anyone else, again I never made any statement to that effect (though to suggest that Marx was a “prophet” is stretching the religious meaning of that term into a pretzel…)

Finally, my calling someone a “hypocrite” is not mutually exclusive from my believing in “peace.”  In fact, Jesus Himself called the temple priests all sorts of names (vipers, fools, dead flesh, hypocrites, etc.), yet to suggest that He did not ultimately represent “peace” (and love, humility, compassion, etc.) is absurd.

Peace.  (Yup, really…)

cyrena-I am going to try this one more time, since you addressed me personally. I wasnt necessariy referring to you, but , at least you admit it was an “attack”. I am home more than I would like, through the week, because I cannot work. I take back that I was elsewhere on Black Friday—-I do not leave the house that day. YOu know ia am disabled, yet you persist in this “shut in” theory. I cannot afford to go many places—-but, I was with old frieds (at their home)on Thanksgiving. WTF is it to ya?

No, they didnt have much, so neither did I. I would never be strupid enough to go shopping on Black Friday. If you think the prices are lower on more than one item…well…

Wait, was this about some poor guy who died??

I see just as many agreeing as ‘attacking”. Even those that disagree, seem to be able to not take it as personally as you. I dont address you personally. Why are you so obssessed. I dont think it is about anything but OBAMA and the beloved DEMS for you. That is why you hate me and anyone who disagress with HIM, YOU or the sell-out DEMS..

Also, since you find it perfectly acceptable to bring up private affairs,—no, I’m not going to do that. You say you were in love once—mine is right here. I’ll leave it at that, instead of going to your level.

This was not “normal consumption” and none of the rest of the world thinks that it is. People hate us more for our greed than our “freedom”.

arius- I am proud to have dropped out of accounting. It sucks. So does capitalism. STF what?? I would think you would be happy now, with Hillary as SOS and all. Oh, that right—I’m supporting the wrong people for you—-that is all any of this is about. What nonsense…Oh, yes, and Obama has tossed PUMA’s a bone—-gee…

Oh, anybody remember the poor dead guy? 34 year old Jdimytai Damour—I hope it was worth it, Wal Mart. I hope the UFCW helps his family sue the f*ck out of you!! WM’s Dave Tovar had “no response” as of 6 hrs ago.But, what a bargain on that pC! I’m sure it was worth that 12 yr old girl’s death in Saipan…

Maani—First off, any comments you may have about what “Jesus meant” are stricly your opinion. (I know you are a preacher—you sure dont talk like one sometimes—no wait you do, actually!! “What a hypocrite!“Peace.

He probably existed—almost everything that carries on that long, has a basis in fact. With all the hiding, and scrambling the “church” has done with his supposed words (written years after his death), we will probably never know what the Hebrew Tenmple’s policies were in that day and age.Peace.

It is also a matter of opinion whther Jesus Christ was any more the son of “god” than Marx or any other prophet. The gnostic gospels, and , all the other censoring of the gospels by the church, leaves no one there is a position to talk about hypocrites!! Peace.

I took catechism, and, I remember him (JC)saying something about, “get thee money out of my father’s house ” at the Temple….he was said to be really angry—you know, “faith based initiatives”?? Why keep putting public money into “his father’s house”? Peace.

The statement on “give to caesar what is caesar’s could be an admonition for everyone, church included, to pay their taxes??? Who knows?Peace.

troublesum:

“Retail sales are 50% of our economy and christmas represents 50% of all retail sales, so christmas retail sales are 25% of our economy.”

Please cite your source for this, as I find it hard to believe it is that high.

KDelphi:

“What do you think Jesus Christ would say about capitalism, Maani?”

Well, of course, the only quote on economic matters that we have from Jesus Himself (other than dozens of comments about poverty and helping the poor) is “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s, and render unto God that which is God’s,” which had to do with taxes.

However, Jesus’ followers were the original socialists.  Here is Acts 4:32-35:

“And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common…Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, and laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.”

Get that?  “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.”  The basis of Marxism, created and practiced by people who believed the very thing that Marx called “the opium of the masses.”  What a hypocrite!

Peace.

Retail sales are 50% of our economy and christmas represents 50% of all retail sales, so christmas retail sales are 25% of our economy.  Just think about that.  If nobody bought anything at christmas time it would be enough to put the country into recession.  When we had a manufacturing based economy there was not so much emphasis on buying and people weren’t so crazy at christmas.  As retail sales have become our economy, advertising has increased astronomically it seems and I think that accounts for the craziness.  People believe their lives depend on buying this junk.  Also if we lived in a civilized country we would have many holidays to celebrate and people wouldn’t be so stressed trying to do it all on christmas.  We are spiritually poverty stricken like characters in Dickens.  The business of America is business.

By Da Bronx, November 29 at 7:12 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

By nrobi, November 29 at 5:56 am

Sam Walton was a sexist and a bigot who refused to hire women or African Americans for even low-level management positions. His move to put Hillarh on his board of Directors was done simply to placate people concerned about Walmarts sexism. the placement of Michelle Obama on the same board was done for similar reasons.

~~~~

As a not so minor point da bronx, Michelle Obama has NEVER been on the board of directors for Wal-Mart. She worked for a FOOD distributor/supplier, TreeHouse Foods who supplies foods for Wal-Mart and many others. There’s a difference.

KDelphi,

You haven’t been attacked on this thread because of your opinions about capitalism, because this incident isn’t about ‘capitalism’. In fact, Anarcissie put it very diplomatically in her or his suggestion that it probably didn’t much deserve your hate, being as it (capitalism) is historically transitory. In all sincerity, I’ve never considered it in those terms, if only because capitalism, in one form or another, has existed for longer than I care to contemplate. It’s based on supply and demand, and people have bartered and traded goods and services for as long as I’m aware of. So for me to think of it as transitory, I’d have to consider the properties of the goods and services rather than the concept and practice of capitalism itself. In other words, the TYPES of goods and services that people are willing to pay or barter for is transitory. Consumerism isn’t new either. Humankind DOES consume.

Arius writes…

“Also, ‘Black Friday’ is not an odd name for it- if you have any awareness of how bookkeeping/recordkeeping works”

Kind of condescending Arius, but I don’t mind, since you’re obviously new here. Actually, I do have some ‘awareness’ of how bookkeeping and record keeping works, but I have some troubles connecting that to the assignment of colors (like black) to days of the week. Can you help me out with that?

Black Tuesday was October 29, 1929, the day the New York Stock Exchange crashed. For whatever the reason, that’s what comes to mind, (rather than bookkeeping) when I see colors (specifically black) used to describe days of the week.

The same thing occurred on October 19, 1987 (that was a really bad year for me, though not because the stock market crashed) and that was dubbed “Black Monday”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

Based on that, (at least in my own bookish mind) the description of the Friday After Thanksgiving as “Black Friday” ‘seemed odd’ to me. A bit of a contradiction if a Black day of the week has historically been associated with the collapse of financial entities, rather than the celebration of the retailers for black INK rather than red ink on their books and records.

The conservative corporate media should be very proud of what they have accomplished here in america. Commercialism, consumerism, marketing have all combined to distort what were once valid values people had. But now, if you have only 3 minutes to cash in on a deal for something as empty as the idiot’s lives that just must have those items is one of the most expose’ of american culture. And I don’t think I am wrong in stating that this a hurdle that must be taken down for this country to regain what was once a country with a conscience and intelligence is has no more.
I also laugh at the the whole idea of looking for those ‘shoppers’ responsible for the death of that poor employee. Why? Because then wal-mart will be able to sue those responsible for damaging their store. Black Friday, where america equals stupidity.

Maani—Yes, I’ve seen some of Rev. Billy, and I think he’s funny. Most know that Xmas is not “Jesus brithday”, and , if you want evidence of people not living what they preach, one need only look here, as to the attacks I received for balking at capitailsm.What do you think “Jesus Christ” would say about capitalism, Maani? Some are very invested in it. But, it is not workable, in the long term. It has certainly NOT produced “thriving world economies”.

Not going out on “black friday” makes you smart—not a “shut in”—I was elsewhere.

I know what “
keep it in the black means”—the empty pursuit of corporate profits. Go ahead, play along. But, its not the only game in town. But, to hear the duopoly sell it, its patriotic.Goods thing I didnt attack mom and apple pie!

Of course, I’ve been “in a WM”. I just dont go unless someone goes there and I ride along.Jim Yell-I know WHY you shop WM—I just dont think you should, if you can afford elsewhere(second hand shops) and want a sustainable US economy.
But, sure, live at WM (soon , there wil be no more open land), work there (no more jobs—all outsourced) and, “buy” health care there, and, I guess die there…you can BUY anything, right?

People certainly are defensive about their shopping behavior, to the point where the dead man is barely noticed…crowd behavior.Go shop on keep it in the black friday, and bemoan crowd mentality…

Of course, what happened in India was “worse”, but that isnt the thread.I dont really celebrate Xmas at all, but, like someone else said, kids get gifts, in the family I celebrate with.

Boy, I sure love you christians and your christmas spirit! Lovely!I had almost forgotten why I left the church!

Secutity footage should be reviewed….Those responsible should be tried AND CONVICTED of MURDER!!!!!

Arius:

“The Jesus that some choose to glorify and celebrate the birth of, actually was not born in Dec 25th, much alone born in December…It’s time to take the religious bullshit out of Dec 25th and let it stand proudly for what it really is - a day to eat like gluttons, mingle with family for once-a-year-arguments, give and get crap we don’t need, and (mostly) to pull the retail business out of the red which they stay in for the entire year, only to make it into the “black” as the holiday season approaches.”

I am an evangelical minister who has been saying this for over 25 years!  I am so glad there are others who realize that (i) Jesus was NOT born in December (depending on one’s interpretation of certain Scripture and historiography, He was born in either September/October or March/April), and (ii) it is long past time to take “Christ” out of “Christmas,” since He not only has NOTHING to do with it, but would be saddened to see how His birthday is celebrated.

Bravo!

Peace.

A perfect example of American Greed. No one cares about the people just the urge to buy more and more made in China plastic crap from Wal-Mart. Wal-Mart doesn’t care about its employees and neither do its customers.

KDelphi—historically speaking, capitalism is transitory.  It is probably not worth your hatred.  Someday people will look back on it or rather on a romantic fantasy of it, much as many of us today look back romantically on the Middle Ages and the ancient world, when in fact they were pretty grisly and for the most part crushingly boring.

Re: Arius, you seem quite the pedant in your comments to KDelphi. You truly do not understand the economics of XMas and the Black Friday mentality.
Surely one as educated as yourself sees the consumerism of America as a microcosm of the world’s inequities.
Wal-Mart used to be a truly American company, that is until Sam Walton dies and the children took over the company. Then, Wal-Mart became an avaricious and greedy company that cares nothing for its workers, using part-time employees, so that they do not have to pay benefits to full-time employees.
The greedy consumerism of America leads to incidences such as this. And you will also note that this person was not a Wal-Mart employee, he was an employee of a sub-contractor to Wal-Mart, most likely on the cleaning crew. Therein lies the rub, most employees of Wal-Mart are paid little if any of the wages that are necessary to purchase items at Wal-Mart.
Arius, you are the one that seems to be out of touch with the America of today.  Are you one of the people that this “Greater Depression,” will not touch? Can you honestly say that you will not be affected by the economic policies of the last 28 years?  If so, then Hallelujah! If not then, I would certainly count my blessings that I did not shop on a day, that the retailers choose to cut consumer prices to the bone to get them into my store or establishment.
If anyone is interested in how Wal-Mart operates and how much they contribute to the local economies, watch Frontline’s expose on Wal-Mart, find it on the PBS website. It will open your eyes regarding the all-encompassing and all-consuming presence of Sprawl-Mart.

KDelphi, you show GREAT ignorance in your comment about capitalism. To such a point I can’t see the point of even explaining it to your one dimensional thought process via comment-  Sounds more like you’re just jealous you don’t have any $$ to spend on whimsical things a couple times a year-

Cyrenna,  though KDelphi seems completely uneducated in how world economies thrive, thus mankind thrives, you appear rather condescending in your long rant.. re read it after you’ve calmed down and you may see my point-

Also, ‘Black Friday’ is not an odd name for it- if you have any awareness of how bookkeeping/recordkeeping works, you’d know retailers are “in the red” 11 months of the year, red being in the negative, in debt.. only to make up for it 1 month a year during xmas shopping, thus putting them in the “black” in the + side of sales thus paying 11 months of bills and hopefully making some profit. Being “in the black” means they are in the black ink (not the red ink, which means “-” or in the negative)

By Fadel Abdallah, November 28 at 2:49 pm #

Fadel,  first of all I don’t see where you are coming from when you call it a “double standard”. How does that term apply? 

Aside from that, the story in India was of greater importance world wide than a pathetic American store trampling which sadly happens every year, (and) they did hourly give about 5 mins of updated local / national news every hour.  Where Faux Snooze prefers covering politcal rhetoric (right wing based), and the death of pretty southern blonde girls, CNN is an international news org, like no other and sometimes they do get back to their roots.  For holidays they often turn over 24/7 coverage to their international stations. I don’t see what the “double standard” is here. 

Also, the 2 other deaths I think you are referring to, are those killed in a toy store which turned out to be (so the media claim) to be 2 opposing gang members in the store at the same time, who got in a verbal scuffle and of course ended in their ill minded way of handling disputes, with a gun.  yes it’s pathetic but it was a gang initiated shooting.

and to all,  I don’t believe this has anything to do at all with the “economic downturn”. That’s a copout.  This country’s behavior, ethics, morality, integrity, etc have gone to shit.  I take it all back to when we suddenly saw new signs on our local marts (whether it be 7-11, or KingKwick, etc) as you entered the store, “no shoes, no shirt, no service”..  when and how did our country get to this point where you need to be told appropriate dress for a store, a restaurant, a funeral, a wedding, or even how to hold your silverware? (of which many adults sadly do NOT have any table manners or ability to hold a fork and knife in any civilized manner)-  I read recently the number of ppl in this country who can’t read or write.. I don’t even remember what the % was, but it was a shocking stunning amount.  My concern and question is how we got to this place, this sad pathetic place where the right wing fanatics and their gung-ho “America’s the greatest” rhetoric doesn’t match up to the true intestines of what this country stands on these days.  Check the lists of what America’s #1 at, you won’t find much if anything- yet the rhetoric continues that we are the best.. we just don’t have anything to back that up with-

Exuberance is completely the wrong word to use here.

Every year it seems someone is trampled in a rush to a 3 hour sale for some cheap electronic that’s a piece of crap and not worth a penny more than the sale price.

It’s times like this that make me shake my head and laugh at so called religious holidays and supposed meanings in order to help feed our economy through consumerism.  Holidays in this country, most of which are in place due to (some) people’s religious beliefs are pathetic-

The Jesus that some choose to glorify and celebrate the birth of, actually was not born in Dec 25th, much alone born in December.  Ah, the facade.

But we live in a country who’s resemblance is ‘ignorance is bliss’.

As the old Candy Man’s child record states over and over and over, “I want what I want when I want it”.

It’s time to take the religious bullshit out of Dec 25th and let it stand proudly for what it really is- a day to eat like gluttons, mingle with family for once-a-year-arguments, give and get crap we don’t need, and (mostly) to pull the retail business out of the red which they stay in for the entire year, only to make it into the “black” as the holiday season approaches. Then they can start it all over again, year after year.

Wash, rinse, repeat-

“Exuberance” is a very polite word to use in this case and completely incorrect.

The word here is “greed” and lust for material things one doesn’t really need and obviously can’t afford. 

Tis the season to trample thy neighbor in an effort to get a $300, 32” plasma screen!

HO! HO! Ho!

A know a few people who go to the local Walmart early on Black Friday just to watch the feeding frenzy. They talk later about seeing people fight over computers, televisions, certain toys, and clothing items. Last night my son called me from Texas, saying that he had found better electronic bargains at Circuit City than had been offered at his local Walmart. He said that people were behaving much more civilized in the CC store,too.

Is this Long Island tragedy a reflection on just WalMart shoppers at that particular store or is it more of a reflection on American consumerism in general?

Cyrena:

“I get gifts for my loved ones…if and when I can, and rarely does that coincide with a holiday other than their own personal one…birthdays. I’ve become convinced that I’m not alone in this mindset.”

You’re not.  For at least two decades, I have bought things for family and friends when I see things to buy for them, and give those things to them whenever I see them next (or I mail them).  I don’t wait for holidays…or even birthdays.  (In my family, since we all live fairly close to each other, birthdays are celebrated solely by going out to a slightly more expensive dinner than usual, but rarely are tangible presents exchanged.)  If it were not for my mother’s insistence on giving her three children (and two grandchildren) presents during the Christmas season, no presents would be “exchanged” in my family at all.

And we are all quite happy that way, avoiding (for the large part) the consumerist mentality of the seasons, particularly “Black Friday,” in which none of my family partakes.

Peace.

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You’re right KDelphi. The MSM shows it every year, and you apparently watch from your perch in front of an electronic device that delivers the images. Does it ever show WHAT these people are purchasing, and would it be the same type of items that desperate folks are inclined to loot? Or, has that possibly CHANGED over the years and decades, and people like you don’t notice it, since the MSM doesn’t reveal all? (or you wouldn’t notice it even if the MSM did).

So for shut-ins like you, it might not come to mind that folks would consider things like bedding and cooking utensils a necessity, or even gardening equipment, or basics like warm clothing for the upcoming season. It might not occur to you that small heaters or similar appliances might be in demand, or that people might utilize supplies needed to convert single family dwellings into multiple family dwellings, or that anybody would have a need for paper supplies, and soap and shit like that. And since you claim to have never been in a Wal-Mart, you might not be aware that they aren’t on the same scale as Harrods’s or Neiman Marcus, so they don’t much carry LUXURY items, unless you’re talking about games, jewelry, and big screen TV’s.  But guess what? In the MULTITUDE of TENT COMMUNITIES that have sprung up in the past few years, the stuff Wal-Mart sells have become high-ticket items. You really should get out more. Things change, even while appearing to stay the same.  For me, (and millions of others of traditional type cultures and habits) Christmas has often been used as the time to acquire NECESSITIES. At least that’s what my parents and other family members have used it for.  In better times, we certainly would receive ‘luxury’ items or non-essentials from time to time, but the bulk of the Christmas loot would be stuff we needed.

The point you missed was that while the lines and the so-called special sales and drastic discounts of “holiday” sales might not be new, the STAMPEDE that killed this man and injured others, along with the frantic mob mentality that prompted it, is a sign of the times. That was my point. But then, I’ve been a public servant to the masses for most of my life, so I have an idea of how groups of society behave under a variety of circumstances.

Thanks for telling us that it’s only because of your family and THEIR belief that being on line is a necessity, that you are in fact able (and obviously exceedingly willing) to grace the rest of us with your on-line presence.  I guess this is as good a time as any to thank you for your consistently cheerful and positive attitude that maintains our hope. I guess that’s like your family’s gift to the rest of on-line humankind. (Ah shit, now my tongue has poked through to the other side of my cheek.) I guess it’s fair to say that your family’s idea of ‘on-line’ access as a ‘necessity’ probably isn’t quite the same as everyone’s (my necessity is based on access to information that I need in the process of daily living) but that’s fine. Whatever works I guess.

2 of 2
As for being bullied by the MSM to celebrate Christmas via capitalistic behaviors or baking, I’m sorry. I do recognize that some people have been so afflicted by hypocritical gestures, (buying shit for people just because you’re expected to) but I’ve been unwilling to be so psychologically coerced myself. I get gifts for my loved ones (including food and the process of cooking it) if and when I can, and rarely does that coincide with a holiday other than their own personal one…birthdays. I’ve become convinced that I’m not alone in this mindset. In fact, I know people who have (for years) waited until off times (AFTER the Corporate Designated Buy Days) to purchase things at a huge savings over the standard fleecing, just by adjusting and adapting their psychology to a more pragmatic plan.

So KDelphi,  you just tell that nasty ol MSM to stop trying to force you to bake cookies and stuff,  when you don’t feel like it. Tell ‘em I said so. I’m also glad to know that you do NOT ‘do without’ anything that you can AFFORD! (yep, you really did write that…wonder how many people ‘do without’ stuff that they CAN AFFORD?) Anyway, what a girl! I’m kind of like that too. I can’t afford housing, so I’m homeless.  But hey, I can afford all the coffee I wanna drink, and all the cigarettes I wanna smoke, since I’m not spending anything on housing and next to nothing on food, and I utilize public transportation at the senior/disabled rate, which includes walking on the days that I can. So see there, I don’t have do without anything that I can AFFORD either.  Just housing, food, and most medical care.

Thanks for the tip on Goodwill.  It gave me a light bulb moment to consider all the stuff I’ve donated to Goodwill over the decades, realizing that I might be able to acquire some of the same items myself.  I’d be sort of pissed if I had to end up paying for an item that I had previously donated, but….that’s life eh? Sign of the times KDelphi. Sign of the times.

As our President said after 9/11:  He would not look into why it occurred and he admonished us all to go out and shop to support our “consumer” economy.  As we witnessed today, so on 9/11, President Bush and the community of the world equally trampled over those who lost their lives on 9/11 by not dealing with the true cause.  The microcosm is but a reflection of the macrocosm. 

My deepest sympathy to this family that is experiencing a profound loss. 

May we all reconsider the myths of Thanksgiving and Christmas and ponder the what and why of these two “holidays” and the mindless actions of most concerning these two holidays.  Thanksgiving is proclaimed on the backs of a nation of people who have been relegated to concentration camp like conditions and religious holidays that have become nothing but consumerism at its worst. 

Why did Walmart not have security guard(s) posted at the door, but rather they left it to one of their underpaid workers to perform a duty that they were not trained to do?  Sue their ass-(et)s!  The Walmart Family is a travesty in their continued disregard for humanity.  They only think of themselves and their own profit and gain.

KDelphi:

Have you ever seen this?

http://www.revbilly.com/

Peace.

I find it hard to believe that these people ran over the top of each other for “necessities” The MSM shows it every year—like it is a “fun” or “good” thing—I make it a day I will not leave the house. I posit that it is about Xmas, and that, here in the US, more so than any other country, Xmas has become something to be bought. It makes it very difficult for those that cannot buy anyone anything, year after year. The MSM says things like “well, bake something”—you have to have extra food and an oven/stove to do that.

My family thinks that being online a necessity, or I would not be. I have never shopeed Wal Mart, but, there is nothing that I can afford that I do without. I buy used, go to Goodwill store, etc. Even when people are truly broke, they end up buying “something, anything”, for someone or they are afraid the friends will be offended. This leads to making a bunch of Xmas themed crap that no one wants or needs.

Chicago has a “Buy Nothing Day” today. I think that that is a good idea. The pressure to shop is intense this time of year, and only benefits the retailers.

I agree with PSmith. I fear we’ll see more of the same mob activity as the worst effects of the Cheneyomics continue to worsen in the next couple of years at least.

I say that because I see this as less about XMAS than I do about survival in these economic times. This “Black Friday” (odd name for it) that is really just another of many standard ‘holiday sale’ days that have been christened over the decades based on the US consumer mentality, have now become days to obtain items, (many of them necessities) at prices within reach. (or at least that’s the assumption). In fact, I was able to purchase a new computer a few days ago, (NOT Wal-Mart…I will not shop there even if they are giving stuff away) because it was on sale at Best Buy. I would NOT have otherwise been able to afford that computer, and it was 1/3rd the cost of my last laptop, which crashed and burned. Now I see a computer as an absolute necessity in survival these days. (at least for me). So I don’t think of that in terms of consumerism, even though I suppose it is.

Be that as it may, it’s not about XMAS for everyone. For many folks, (including me) it’s an opportunity to acquire a necessity, (like shoes, socks, underwear, pots and pans, soap, food, (like bulk canned goods) and other things that people need to survive. Now I don’t know if the Wal-Mart in Nassau, NY has all of those items available, (The Super-Center Wal-Marts in Texas sell EVERYTHING) but the thing is that there are lots of survival type items that people might be inclined to wanna buy. For instance, I could use a pressure cooker in order to can produce that I’ve grown. The one I purchased years ago from a local hardware store would be half the price at Wal-Mart, and the one I bought then is currently inaccessible to me.

So yeah, as survival becomes more and more difficult, and as mob mentalities grow over a fight for resources that are presumed necessities, these incidents will continue.

Fadel:

While I would not argue that there is media bias (particularly in the U.S.), I think your argument is a bit overstated.  After all, 140 killed and many hostages taken (including U.S. citizens) in terrorist bombings is just a tad more horrific (and newsworthy) than one person trampled and two people shot in isolated incidents.

Peace.

This is consumerism/capitalism. It happens every year. Maybe it will take a depression to cure the US of this obssession with consuming.If you dont have the money to buy it anywhere except Wal Mart, you probably cant afford it.

This huge emphasis on XMAS has been ridiculous for a long time. CNN and MSMBC probably dont report such things , as it might slow down “shoppers” or “dampen Greedness, I mean Christmas, ‘spirit’”.

There will be alot more victims than “3”—-even shopping at Wal Mart creates al kinds of third world victims.

I hate capitalism. Capitalism kills. Every day. Every war, every tax cut, every foreclosure, all are based on capitalism.

There is another piece of “consumer terrorism” claiming the lives of two people in a shooting at a shopping center; so the number of victims stands at three in one day.

The sad part is that though the first Wal-Mart incident occurred early at 5:00 a.m., it took the CNN and MSNBC till 4:00 p.m. to report this news. This is in contrast to the covering of the terrorist attack in India, where there was covering around the clock with a high level of repetition!

So here goes the MSM’s double standard of selectively giving certain news more priority over others!

From a pagan ritual celebrating the end of the darkness and the coming springshine to this? lets pray this is the bottom of the CIRCLE and we will now move up towards the Light.

troublesum:

ROFLMAO!

Actually, like the annual occurrence of trampling deaths of Muslims on their hadj, it has become an annual occurrence that someone gets crushed in the madness of Black Friday.  Ironically, stores started to open earlier in order to tro to AVOID these situations.  Yet it has only seemed to make them more likely.

Let’s hear it for the American consumerist mindset!

Peace.

A depression appears necessary to cure this insanity.  I’m also rooting for 2012.

Wow. We have a diseased society.

Merry Christmas.  Now get the hell out of my way before I have to kill you.  It’s that pleasant time of year again.

“The death of a Long Island worker after a mob of shoppers rushed into a Wal-Mart certainly shows the worst of American consumerism and excess, but where do we position such exuberance in a time of economic downturn?”
===================
As the world focuses its attention on the tragic events at Mumbai, I find this incident at Wal-Mart to be even more gruesome than the deaths of terrorism in Mumbai!

Now, we might be able to add the “consumer-terrorism” to the many other forms of terrorism!