What it seems to me is that Obama has kept the same position without wavering since the crisis began, whereas McCain has been all over the place, but keeps winding up where Obama already is, without, of course ever admitting that his postion keeps changing. So in reality he is following Obama. Take the debate business. First McCain “suspends his campaign” including the the debate “to go to Washington to deal with the problem.” Obama cooly says that Washington will call him if they need him, and goes right on preparing for the debate. Now McCain is faced with a choice: go to the debate or consider the prospect of Obama talking to 100 million voters while sitting across from an empty chair. What can he do, but start to weasel? Now he is saying that the plan might be all finished in time to make it by Mississippi by tomorrow. What a crock! Meanwhile he has signed on to all four of Obama’s basic principles. I guess he got to put in the fifth one about “earmarks”. He’s the earmark guy. Well, I’m glad they agree.

I have said many times that I will vote for Obama (whom I personally admire) under protest as a lesser of two evils decision.
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By omniadeo, September 25 at 7:20 am #

I’m glad you are voting for Obama but I am the one who is getting tired of this “lesser of two evils” business. Do you understand that politics is the art of the possible? Do you understand that politics is always a choice between real alternatives, never between a real alternative an an ideal? Do you understand that everything in politics is relative? Do you understand that in politics there is no such thing as absolute good? Do you understand that “the lesser of two evils” is exactly the same thing as “the greater of two goods?” It’s a fucked up world, and politics is the most fucked up part of it. Relative to any other major presidential candidate I have seen in my lifetime of 62 years, Obama is the best I have seen. 
——————————————————————————
“2) What is your source for saying McCain supported the original bailout three days ago?”

I got the impression that McCain supported the Bush administration plan when it first came out and only changed his mind when he realized it was not going to fly. But McCain changes his position so rapidly I may have been confused. Sorry, but here is a link detailing several different McCain postions:

http://www.democraticcentral.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2608

By steve, September 25 at 8:19 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Here’s a little straight talk for everyone…forget about this frickin election and both candidates both of whom basically take their orders from the same corporate elites anyways…what this country needs is a new revolution…kick out all of this people through force of arms and begin again.
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Yeah, and put in some sort of revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat such as, say the Khmer Rouge and murder half the population for non-conformity. While we’re at it, lets burn every book. Sound good?

Tony,

1) This topic is about the cancellation of the debate, not Obama’s plan. It is you are off topic. Most of the posts below are examining the viability of McCain’s ploy. This is an important topic in and of itself, since his supporters are playing it as “leadership.” In actuality it is another dangerous precedent—all too familiar now—that we only have time for democracy when there are no crises.

2) What is your source for saying McCain supported the original bailout three days ago? I cite one as recently as yesterday saying he had not read it or formulated an opinion.

3) While Obama’s 4 points are certainly an improvement over Paulson’s original draft, they hardly begin to answer some of the most important questions about or objections to this whole debacle. Points 1, 2 and 4 sound good, but they are not going to be enforceable and it is precisely “bi-partisanship” that got us in this mess. It would have been nice to include the re-introduction of the separation of banks, insurance companies and investment firms which was removed by a Democratic administration with Democratic votes in congress after 50 plus years of protecting us after the last Depression.

I have said many times that I will vote for Obama (whom I personally admire) under protest as a lesser of two evils decision. Only one thing endangers that vote: When the pro-Obama camp tries to spin him as a populist and an anti-war choice. It doesn’t fly. The record or the positions (as opposed to the rhetoric) just aren’t there.

In this instance, in a real populist campaign, Obama would be fighting, not looking for bi-partisan solutions with a few unenforceable “guarantees” that help his biggest donors and smooth things over. When he fires Paul Rubin, I’ll reconsider my opinion. It’s not Obama’s fault that the system is rigged this way, but don’t tell me that he isn’t putting a little lipstick on his own pig.

I know you want to believe that this is “real change” but your defenses of Obama grow tiresome.

If you all would give your poisonal opinions a rest for a moment and open up your ears and listen, if that could be possible, please watch Obama’s latest press conference at

http://my.barackobama.com/page/invite/bolatestremarks/

Two days ago McCain was completely going along with the Bush Adminstration’s attempt to stampede the country into giving Paulson and the administration absolute, unaccountable authority to dispose of 700 billion dollars. McCain has done a 180 and now, it would seem, agrees with Obama’s position. Obama’s four principles are (1) There will be a bipartisan board to review, examine and provide accountablility for every penny of the money provided by taxpayers, (2) The taxpayers will be treated as investors in these mortgages and will get every penny of their money back interest, when the economy recovers (3) there must be a plan to help homeowners who are at risk of forcloseure. (4) not one dime can go to reward Wall Street executives who are responsible for the mess. 

This is going to be the plan, not because Barack Obama wants it but because he has the political sense to understand that this is a plan the people will support.

I can understand having a vp debate but how is McBama going to debate himself?  Shouldn’t Nader be their so as to have an opposing point of view?  Giving joint answers to questions from the moderator isn’t really a debate is it?

By omniadeo, September 24 at 8:25 pm

Omniadeo…I love the part about McCain not having time to read the same 3 page plan that millions of other read. OOHHKAY!! And, that would be WHY??? You senile old fart. He needs to just go sit his demented ass down somewhere.

And, you’re right about this:

•  “Not even the MSM will let him get away with this one.”

I mean, how COULD they let him get away with it? Even the hard core conservatives are on to him now. It was no big deal with it was just us ordinary folks getting screwed and recycled through the screw with each and every one of these gamblers went bankrupt with our money. But NOW, even they are feeling the pain. So NOW, it’s an ‘emergency’. Damn skippy it is; it’s been an ‘emergency’ for 8 flippin’ years! And, it’s not like things were particularly peachy even before then.

Nope. Congress doesn’t need McCain there to help them do the deal. His campaign is in serious meltdown, just like the economy. That’s the problem. Looking for an out, but it’s just sooooo obvious.

Still, I don’t want to see them ‘rush’ on the deal. I know it has to happen, but I say that because I agree with Dr. Know that it is a Perfect Storm time. One of those things that we probably couldn’t have actually planned in a hundred years. In the blowback of their own carefully planned heist, we have this one chance to get back at least SOME of what they’ve ripped off. Most importantly, our system of government.

Hate to be crude, but it’s time to collect some scalps. Or if one prefers, squeeze some testicles. Whatever it takes.

Why is it that every Pres. election we have two crappy choices, and the process takes almost two years—most of which is repetition.  Why don’t we hire Simon Cowell to design a program that is similar to American Idol.  They manage to give hundreds on people an equal chance to compete, and end up with an outstanding selection in a matter of months.  If only the choice of our President was so well vetted.

The corporate media cooperation in limiting the election choices and debates to just Obama and McCain turns the election and our democracy into a farce.

Let’s face reality.  The Republican Party is a fascist criminal conspiracy.  They expect to be handed $700,000,000,000 with no review or oversight?  What other proof do you need that they are criminally insane and belong in prison?

Obama should come out strongly against the entire proposal and insist that nothing be done with taxpayer money until the crooks are out of office.

It’s no surprise under the current crisis why McCain wants to bow out. Phil Gramm of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act fame is still at his side.

Have you checked out the size of the circle representation on the other thread for the cost of the bailout of the savings and loan scandal?  Would you want to show your face? Certainly not in an arena where you might have to answer any questions regarding it.

But lets not let the Democrats off the hook.  Obama has chose Robert Rubin(Bob), Clinton’s guy.  What happened there…?

Ralph Nader:
“We should always remember that when the Republicans get worse and worse, we tend to get amnesia about the Democrats, if not a little nostalgia. It was Clinton who signed into law the agro-business act, concentrated further power in the hands of fewer agro business giants in 1996. He signed the Telecommunications Act, which all good liberals know was a concentrating factor on the media in fewer and fewer hands. And he signed into law what Bob Rubin wanted him to sign into law, the so-called Financial [Services] Modernization Act, which was breaking down the separation of investment from the Glasspiegel Act, which separated investment from commerce and allowed more city, court, corporations, more concentration of the financial resources in fewer and fewer gigantic multinational financial institutions. Dr. Sidney Wolf, who monitored the FDA for years and years, said under Clinton was the worse he’s ever seen. The Food and Drug Administration, there wasn’t a single safety standard of any significance issued in eight years for automobiles. We go on and on. One of my favorites is, starting in the early ’70s we asked the FAA to put a regulation in to strengthen cockpit doors and door latches because of the hijacks from Cuba. And year after year, under Democratic and Republican, they refused to do that. And then 9/11 came along. One can go on and on, the macro-Democratic Party is a shade of what it was. Almost everything I proposed in 2000 and 2004, and you can look at it on the record, would have been adopted or aggressively pursued by the FDR/Harry Truman Democratic Party.”(pg. 1)

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20071105_robert_scheer_debates_ralph_nader/

I agree that there are good democrats, but it is apparent they don’t run for president, unless they LEAVE THE PARTY.  If they don’t leave, the two corporate parties will marginalize them, and they’ll be out of the primary race. It’s a scam.

We need to take the party back.  But by the looks of it, it isn’t going to be THIS election, unless we go OUTSIDE both major parties.

Here’s another good one, Cyrena.

Thursday the 18th - The bailout plan was first announced

Saturday the 20th - The text of the bailout (only 3 pages) was posted on the Internet where millions of ordinary people read it.

Tuesday the 23rd -John McCain says he hasn’t yet “had a chance” to read it! Honest to God!

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/news_article.aspx?storyid=97180&catid=45

Wednesday the 24th - McCain has to cancel his campaign and the debate because Washington needs him there on Friday to solve the problem.

Thursday the 25th (tomorrow) - He will have time to go make a speech at the UN on an unrelated topic.

Friday the 26th - He will interrupt the meeting of the Congressional leaders who are working on the problem to take them to a photo op at the WH w/ Bush. Then he will have time to skip the debate.

Not even the MSM will let him get away with this one.

This is indeed one of the strangest things I’ve ever seen just before a presidential election. Is it another example of McSame’s poor judgement?  You’d think McSame would be chomping at the bit to show what his ideas are to fix our economic woes and how he would “lead” (ahem…cough) our country back to economic health.

He and Palin were going to be the New Kids on the Block and they were going to fix everything!  LOL!

I hope Obama is standing there all by himself on that Mississippi stage on Friday night and that he looks extremely presidential!

By omniadeo, September 24 at 3:53 pm

•  “…In other words, his emergency need to be in DC coincides with the day of the debate exactly…”

Omniadeo…

THANKS for pointing this out! At least I would have probably otherwise missed it, even though we know this is a bunch of shit from him. (yeah, part of the campaign as someone else suggested), but it’s always good when their crimes can be confirmed….same as, caught red handed.

Quincy gives us perfectly sane and pragmatic reasons why the debate doesn’t have to be cancelled in order to have these two out of 50 Senators ‘in the process’, and specifically since they can reach one or both of them easily enough if circumstances require it. (like breaking some sort of tie or marginal vote.) I’m worried about whether or not Ted Kennedy is up to this, and I just don’t know. We really need him now, but we also need all the rest of these folks to do their jobs. Now of course if McCain thinks his presence is THAT necessary, (more bullshit, since he’s heading to New York, NOT DC to work on this crisis) then we can just hold off on THEIR crisis, until after the debates. Planet Earth isn’t gonna fall out of the system within the next few days. And if it does??? Not much else is gonna matter anyway, eh?

Then again, Dean Baker did say that we’ve got at most about 2 weeks. It’s hard for me to visualize the time urgency once it gets this bad. I just don’t see how an extra few days or more is going to make a difference.

In fact, I’m totally on board with Dr. Knowitall, in what CAN actually be accomplished from this crisis, and I wanna squeeze every drop of plasma available. I wanna see ‘em sweat, and hand over ALL of the loot they’ve stolen the past decade or so.

THIS is the time for that, while we’ve got ‘em by the shorthairs. Nope, by their very SCALPS!!!

Sorry to be so frank, but that is the biggest chickenshit move I think I have ever seen in an election. The crisis is so great he must suspend the campaign?  Ironically, suspending the campaign is part of his campaign.  He will get his clock cleaned by Obama in the debates, he knows it and his handlers know it.  They don’t want to see the stammer mouth express derail.  I like that the Obama campaign said that Obama can handle both.  Do we want a president who can’t handle things on multiple fronts anyway?  I know its not about that at all, but even his excuse is weak.  McCain seems to be starting a new and very worrisome trend in politics of not being available to the people.  Lets kick this guys ass in the election and send a clear message that the American people won’t tolerate this kind of nonsense.

I wonder if suspending the campaign means pulling Palin out of the debate as well.

Hey, Dr., Dr.,

Yes, at it’s best, I agree.  But it’s been a long, long time for that.

As you said; Zeus help us if it’s Palin.  Keep the faith.

Under reported is the fact that McCain is not gping immediately back to DC.

“Mr. McCain said that after speaking at the Clinton Global Initiative in New York on Thursday, he would return to Washington to work on the bailout package.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/us/politics/25mccain.html?ref=us

In other words, his emergency need to be in DC coincides with the day of the debate exactly.

Hey-Maybe if “they” [mcshame and moose turd] BOTH “keep a low profile”.....The Amerikan “sheeple will FORGET HOW “they” [mcshame and moose turd]are so STUPID-DODDERING-INNEFECTUAL-etc.etc.etc…...

At the risk of shooting from the hip (Hey, McCain shot first!) I would like to remark upon McCain’s bipartisan proposal to fix the current financial mess.

First, McCain is not the leader of his party. The president is. Whatever we think of George Bush he is still the president of the United States. McCain does not lead his party yet or define national policy.

Second, John McCain and Barack Obama are, at this time, only United States Senators, members of the larger body comprising the Congress of the United States. Their votes remain only one each in the Senate. In the entire Congress there are 535 votes.

Third, as United States Senators their roles in the Senate have been defined. There are standing Senate committees with chairs (Christopher Dodd is the Chair of the Senate Banking Committee, for example) who have been working hard for the past several days on this crisis. Negotiations are underway and the 98 Senate colleagues of these two senators have ideas of their own. Leading a cavalry charge into their midst in an attempt to “take over” and “fix” the problems may be foolhardy at this time. Upsetting the progress that has already been made.

Now perhaps the news media has misrepresented McCain’s intents. This would not be first time this has happened. But McCain has shot from the hip before, and appearing to be decisive and strong in this emergency may impress some of the voters. But as a practical consideration, assuming the news media got it right - and it may not have - McCain’s suggestion to go to Congress to “fix the mess” appears more like grand standing than wise leadership.

Politically will it work? Well, look at what Palin did for McCain in the polls.

What McCain really wants, is for us to suspend our disbelief.

http://www.wilytrax.com

I would never call a war hero a coward.

Expat, nice to hear from you!  I still entertain getting out.  The thing is, America, at its best, is really unbeatable, I think.  We just need to contain the neocons and the religious nut cases.  We’re going to be O.K..

I do think if Sarah Palin becomes POTUS I’m outta here.

Expat writes:

The only way I’m maintaining my sanity is by being 10,000 miles away.  But I do have a question:  What will Americans do?  I think this is a very big test and failure is not an option.

~~~~~

Expat,

Good question. I only wish that I was 10,000 miles away, but admittedly that is selfish. The problem is that this test has been ongoing for so long, and we’ve been taking it for so long, and so I feel like we ARE already failing. It’s been like trying to bail out the titanic with a spoon.

I think skulz has a point about this latest just being part of the plan for the collapse. Cancel the debates and the next step is cancel the elections.

I have but one (2-part) prayer re this entire complex mess and time:

Please, may there BE an election and,
may all candidates LIVE to be voted upon..

Amen

September 24, 2008 5:14 PM

“A Democrat tells ABC News that, in a phone call late this afternoon, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., told Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., that it would NOT be helpful for him to come back to Washington, D.C., to work on the Wall Street bailout bill.”

This has gone beyond “Theater of the Absurd” to pathetic.  I have never seen such utter bullshit.  McCains campaign is in total meltdown.  McCain himself is showing signs of senility; he cannot remember things from one moment to another while flip flopping his way from day to day.  And, his vacuous VP pick is so lacking in credentials she must be hidden away from the press.

The only way I’m maintaining my sanity is by being 10,000 miles away.  But I do have a question:  What will Americans do?  I think this is a very big test and failure is not an option.

this man’s actions since he entered the Senate has been the facilitator of this entire Financial melt down! KEATING 5- Where are those other Guys Now- Certianly NOT Running for Pres! And I doubt they would be so stupid or brazen to have Phil Gramm as his Stage puppet( Or was he the Wet nurse Before Palin?)
For someone I once admired-I,Now find him as Trustworthy as Cheney. Lest we forget Gen. Benedict Arnold- Wouldn’t be the first time in Our history a Military man TURNED COAT! and Mac didn’t just share privy infor, or foul up a battle- he fucked up an entire economy and it’s Future! Heckova Job Johnny Boy..How many years on the Commerce Committee- a bang up job just like you did on the Armed Services. Oversight does not seem to be one of Johns ‘things’!
So whos’ Anthrax was that John? What was the mission when we preemptively, unnecessarily invaded iraq? Do you still call that heist of the Powell Doctrine the ‘Surge’ even since it has proven to be a PURGE from our Coffers and Futures! How much longer did you want to ‘over stay our welcome’ at 10 Billion a month? How do you plan on Balancing anything with a national debt poss topping out at 11.5 TRILLION- once your gambling buddies finally screw US all.
Here John, all we have left is a bandaid for the profusely hemorraging Gunshot wounds you and your buddies inflicted on US.
McCain and Associates shouldn’t be facing Rally Audiences they Should be facing Juries- of NOT Their Peers- and Angry Mobs!!Gee how many charges has Mac accumulated over his ‘career’ , okay the last 7 yrs, even the last 7 months…Forget it the list is still too long to bother typing. But a good Summation..TREASON!

McCain seems be trying to get the most out of the situation in Washington regarding the bailout proposal.

He is going to end up playing ball with the Bush administration and Wall Street fat cats, but wants to come across as a populist.

Unique perspectives in the articles:

Wall Street drama: Deliver the $700 billion, or the economy’s dead

AmericanChronicle.com
September 24, 2008

http://americanchronicle.com/articles/75325

Wall Street’s special offer – but you must act now!

PopulistAmerica.com
Populist Party of America
September 24, 2008

http://www.populistamerica.com/wall_streets_special_offer_but_you_must_act_now

That chickenshit McCain is running away from a REAL debate on Friday. He says he has to be in Washington to solve this problem. Obama says he is going to go right on campaigning and will be there on Friday as scheduled. He says they can call him if they need him. Which is worse for McCain now, changing his mind and coming to the debate or Obama vs. an empty chair in front of 100 million viewers?

Would this be the opening salvo in a fascist conspiracy to cancel the November election, declare “martial law” and paint a smiley tyrannical face on our pig of a democracy? Ah, there’s not much left any wise so say bye bye to that Grand American Experiment. If Obama falls for this crap, you can rest assured, he was NEVER “for” the people anyway.