Leefeller:
“Your overlooking the simple fact Harris is not running for office, nor will he have the power to influence decisions from his opinions of unbelief. So in saying they are the same, dost not fly.

Palin shows an encompassing and blatant ignorance, while Harris shows for you a personal ignorance. I do not know much about Harris, but your opinion seems to be as I stated before personal.”

——

I don’t see how Palin running for office while he’s not, makes him any less of a hypocrite for attacking her intellectual fuindementalism and arrogance, while he displays the exact same qualities.

O Dar,

“And when he writes “What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she represents—and her supporters celebrate—the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance.”, he couild just as well be writing about himself.”

After rereading his article, I do not see it your way. In the article he mentions little of Islam and the middle east and does not claim to to know the answerers, except that their is a problem.

Your overlooking the simple fact Harris is not running for office, nor will he have the power to influence decisions from his opinions of unbelief. So in saying they are the same, dost not fly.

Palin shows an encompassing and blatant ignorance, while Harris shows for you a personal ignorance. I do not know much about Harris, but your opinion seems to be as I stated before personal.

Leefeller:
“O Dar,

You flatter yourself needlessly, I really did not have any problem with you posts except the fact I may disagree with you points as few as they are. Finding fault with Harris instead of his message shows the shallowness of your arguments.  For what is worth I am not a great fan of Harris, but respect his knowledge and ability to express himself in a way which induces thought in some, obviously not all. 

Must admit I do not know if Harris looks down on people who disagree with him, if so then I would agree with you.  It has been shown that Palin creates vendettas which to me is not comforting.

When posters attack the messenger instead of the message, it usually means attempted changing from topic, to a squabble of us and them, instead of discussion on the topic. This is what your message presented to me.”

—

I’ve already made my point quite clearly.

Further, in this case both the message and the messenger are intertwined. When the kettle calls the pot black, then it has to be pointed out: yes the pot is black, but so is the “messenger”, the kettle.

Harris has no business attacking Palin when he shares many of the same qualities with her, except replace “God” and “Chistianity” with “no god” and “athiesm”.

To be even more specific, his very use of such phrases as “Russian belligerence” and “Islamism on a hundred fronts” shows that in these cases atleas he actually does share her exact world-view.

It’s particularly amusing to read him writing of Palin’s ignorance of “Islam” and “the Middle East” when he also doesn’t seem to know about them either. WOrst still, unlike Palin, he through his books and talks actively spreads his ignorance and misunderstanding around.

And when he writes “What is so unnerving about the candidacy of Sarah Palin is the degree to which she represents—and her supporters celebrate—the joyful marriage of confidence and ignorance.”, he couild just as well be writing about himself.

Like I said, what he writes about Palin might very well be true, but this hypocrite isn’t the one to write it.

O Dar,

You flatter yourself needlessly, I really did not have any problem with you posts except the fact I may disagree with you points as few as they are. Finding fault with Harris instead of his message shows the shallowness of your arguments.  For what is worth I am not a great fan of Harris, but respect his knowledge and ability to express himself in a way which induces thought in some, obviously not all. 

Must admit I do not know if Harris looks down on people who disagree with him, if so then I would agree with you.  It has been shown that Palin creates vendettas which to me is not comforting.

When posters attack the messenger instead of the message, it usually means attempted changing from topic, to a squabble of us and them, instead of discussion on the topic. This is what your message presented to me.

Again, I had no reason to report your post, I prefer to always respond and discuss or debate or not at all. You assume on unsound ground.

Leefeller:

“O dar,

Your post is gone I find that amusing, your disagreement with Harris seems almost personal.  You did not mention anything about Palin and her blind faith? This is a public forum, if you do not want us to make comments or assumptions do not post, you cold be a little more clear with your comments, expand and explain what is on your mind, your short now dissipated post left little to work with, so assumptions were all we had.”

Well, you obviously “Reported” my post before reading it properly.

I made it clear that both Palin and Harris are alike, in that both look down at those who don’t share their beliefs, Christian Evangelical for Palin, athiesm for Harris.

Ans the same goes for his “fans”. They’re as close-mindedly snooty as those MegaChurch-goers. Both think they know everything and are better than everyone else.

And yes, Harris and his fans are worse. Evangelical Christians may say “non Evangelica Protestant Christians are fools”, buit Harris and his sheep say “EVERYONE in the whole world and through-out history was and is a fool…except us”.

Further, Harris is not some great intellectual enlightening the world. He’s just another loud-mouth hate- and fear-mongerer, little different than Ann Coulter and others. He’s not so much concerned with a deep, let alone philosophical, discussion of religion and its role in human society, as much as he’s concerned with demonization and attacks against that which he knows zilch about.

You may now “Report” this post as well.

O dar,

Your post is gone I find that amusing, your disagreement with Harris seems almost personal.  You did not mention anything about Palin and her blind faith? This is a public forum, if you do not want us to make comments or assumptions do not post, you cold be a little more clear with your comments, expand and explain what is on your mind, your short now dissipated post left little to work with, so assumptions were all we had.

Leefeller:

“Wildflower,

Notice the Two posters who attack and discredit Harris by comparing him to Palin, which is an insult to anyone with a useful brain.  Fadel engaged his mouth sort to speak before his brain and I had originally thought O Dar was been sarcastic, until I reread the post.

Problem being, intelligence has nothing to do with religion, but both posters have preconceived opinions which supersede logic and intelligence, simply because they know in their minds they are right.  No attempt at discourse or even the slightest opening for the assimilation of ideas. 

This is the way it is for they have been told, in their own subtle way everyone who does not agree with them will go to their hell.  Classic Intelligence designed for the ignorant.

Religion, a commodity to be sold for profit, used to control the mind of some who do not like to think for themselves. If you arn’t buying, no profit. Seems to me if you are selling something you should not insult the potential customers? Burning them at the stake is much simpler.”

Who are you to assume such things about me? The only post here that seems to show a closed mind is you, and the proof is that my original post is gone.

Hmmm, I wonder who reported it, hmmm…

wildflower:

“Re: O Dar

Surely, you must realize what is occurring is far more important than who is the most arrogant – Palin or Harris.  Does it really matter? In seems to me there are much bigger issues at stake in this election:”

Yes, there are more importamnt things, but that doesn’t mean I can’t call a spade a spade, and to point out that Harris has no cause to feel so much better than Palin.

” “. . . The next administration must immediately confront issues like nuclear proliferation, ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and covert wars elsewhere), global climate change, a convulsing economy, Russian belligerence, the rise of China, emerging epidemics, Islamism on a hundred fronts, a defunct United Nations, the deterioration of American schools, failures of energy, infrastructure and Internet security … the list is long, and Sarah Palin does not seem competent even to rank these items in order of importance, much less address any one of them. . . “ “

Harris’s use of the phrase “Russian belligerence” and reference to mythical “Islamism on a hundred fronts” (I wonder why “brave” Mr.Harris didn’t just come out and say “Islam on a hundred fronts”?) further show him to be a fool just like Palin.

Since Sarah Palin is a pathological liar and Christian of ill repute, it would be more prudent of her, if she admitted telling the truth, incase it ever happens. Wow! Would she be calling wolf?

and yet another perspective ala The NewYorker:

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2008/09/22/080922sh_shouts_saunders?yrail

john maloney you are full of baloney. Sarah Palin a decent American? Hardly. This woman has a sadistic streak a mile wide. She is for destroying animals by aerial hunting, wolves, after years of the public donating funds to restore wolves from the brink of extinction in Alaska, she has the audacity to offer a $150.00 bounty on every left foreleg of a dead wolf. She finally admitted she lied on the campaign trail and then immediately turned right around and continued the same lies. Decent, I don’t think so. Those who have opposed her have found themselves out of a job, those who have helped her in the past to attain her current position have been stabbed in the back by her, she also has a vendetta list. I knew about Sarah Palin long before McCain ever selected her, so the knowledge of her is not new to me. Lying is like breathing to her, second nature. She is also becoming just like the current administration, claiming to cooperate, then refusing, just like G.W.‘s crew. DO you think we really need to have another lying religious whack job who claims that the war in Iraq is a task from God and then saying that God has a plan and that they hope it is the God’s plan. So basically they are unsure that God wants the U.S. to have war in Iraq, but don’t let that stop them ,real sound base she is working from-not. And don’t forget she thinks we are living in the end of days and that people will flock to Alaska as the last refuge waiting for the Rapture.
I would rather have a level headed person who thinks things out before acting rather than some unstable person who feels it is God’s will to destroy everything trying to fulfill Bible prophecy. Besides why does Sarah, as well as the current administration, think that God needs humans to bring about end time prophecy, wouldn’t God be capable of doing so itself, if it exists?

Where to start…

First: “Spot on” to those who took issue with those who rip into the messenger rather than the message. WTF does Harris’ atheism or his position on religion have to do with his rightful questioning of her experience and abilities in our nation’s Number Two Spot?

Second: As Harris pointed out, that a person of such mediocrity could even be considered as fit for the office of Vice President points out the “silliness” of the political system that permits such consideration. This, to me, is of bigger concern than even Palin’s abilities.

Three: I dismiss Fadel Abdallah’s remarks and those who support him as mindless rantings due no more acknowledgment than this one sentence.

This article didn’t revolutionize my view or anything, bit it did leave me with this question:

How much difference is there between Sarah Palin and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?

They definitely seem cut from the same cloth.

Thanks TD for posting this. Harris has a way of putting things in clear relief. It would be deeply satisfying to hear Obama defend elitism as effectively as Harris has in this article. Unfortunately, Obama will take the advice of his campaign managers and go the John Kerry route of trying to appear home spun. I can only he spares us the hunting/camouflage photo-op.

It is disappointing to see that the comments here are mostly intent on putting atheism on trial once again, rather than taking Harris’ piece at face value, and debating it’s substance. What Harris believes is not the issue, it is what Palin believes that is so frightening.

To those who are attacking Harris, I’d rather read your attempts to defend Palin. That will require some real writing chops.

Wildflower,

Notice the Two posters who attack and discredit Harris by comparing him to Palin, which is an insult to anyone with a useful brain.  Fadel engaged his mouth sort to speak before his brain and I had originally thought O Dar was been sarcastic, until I reread the post.

Problem being, intelligence has nothing to do with religion, but both posters have preconceived opinions which supersede logic and intelligence, simply because they know in their minds they are right.  No attempt at discourse or even the slightest opening for the assimilation of ideas. 

This is the way it is for they have been told, in their own subtle way everyone who does not agree with them will go to their hell.  Classic Intelligence designed for the ignorant.

Religion, a commodity to be sold for profit, used to control the mind of some who do not like to think for themselves. If you arn’t buying, no profit. Seems to me if you are selling something you should not insult the potential customers? Burning them at the stake is much simpler.

Re: O Dar

Surely, you must realize what is occurring is far more important than who is the most arrogant – Palin or Harris.  Does it really matter? In seems to me there are much bigger issues at stake in this election:

“. . . The next administration must immediately confront issues like nuclear proliferation, ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan (and covert wars elsewhere), global climate change, a convulsing economy, Russian belligerence, the rise of China, emerging epidemics, Islamism on a hundred fronts, a defunct United Nations, the deterioration of American schools, failures of energy, infrastructure and Internet security … the list is long, and Sarah Palin does not seem competent even to rank these items in order of importance, much less address any one of them. . . “

...for anyone seeking higher office should be whether they actively seek to have non-science taught in a science classroom.  If they flunk that litmus test then higher office should be automatically disallowed.

Re: Harris

Putting my personal views of Harris aside for the moment, I believe many of the points Harris makes in this article are on target, specifically, this point: 

“. . . the problem she poses to our political process is now much bigger than she is. . .

. . . Watching her deny to Gibson that she had ever harbored the slightest doubt about her readiness to take command of the world’s only superpower, one got the feeling that Palin would gladly assume any responsibility on earth:

“Governor Palin, are you ready at this moment to perform surgery on this child’s brain?”

“Of course, Charlie. I have several boys of my own, and I’m an avid hunter.”

“But governor, this is neurosurgery, and you have no training as a surgeon of any kind.”

“That’s just the point, Charlie. The American people want change in how we make medical decisions in this country. And when faced with a challenge, you cannot blink. . . ”

Outraged,

Great insight and information.  Attacking the messenger instead of the message seems some people love to wear their old bile goggles.

In addition, Harris has this to say about the war in Iraq.

“My position on the war in Iraq:
I have never written or spoken in support of the war in Iraq. The truth is, I have never known what to think about this war, apart from the obvious: 1) prospectively, it seemed like a very dangerous distraction from the ongoing war in Afghanistan; 2) retrospectively, it has been a disaster.  While much of the responsibility for this disaster falls on the Bush administration, one of the administration’s great failings was to underestimate the religious sectarianism of the Iraqi people. Whatever one thinks about the rationale for invading Iraq and the subsequent prosecution of the war, there is nothing about the resulting conflict that makes Islam look benign—not the reflexive solidarity expressed throughout the Muslim world for Saddam Hussein (merely because an army of “infidels” attacked him), not the endless supply of suicide bombers willing to kill Iraqi noncombatants, not the insurgency’s use of women and children as human shields, not the ritual slaughter of journalists and aid-workers, not the steady influx of jihadis from neighboring countries, and not the current state of public opinion among European and American Muslims. It seems to me that no reasonable person can conclude that these phenomena are purely the result of U.S. foreign policy, however inept.”

There is more at this same link, which refutes some the allegations which have been thrown at Harris.  Whether you agree or not, at least be certain of his actual position and the things he actually said, instead of someone else’s interpretation of them.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/

Re: troublesum

I disagree.  Sam Harris isn’t racist, he just happens to piss off people who then attempt to pin that label on him.  Usually, when someone doesn’t have “a leg to stand on” in an argument/debate, their first recourse is to vilify, label and then marginalize their opponent.  I also wouldn’t put Harris in the same boat as Hitchens.  I agree with Hitchens on some points, but he certainly can be an offending individual which it at times appears, at least to me, only for attention getting antics.

In addition, if I were to judge EVERY Christian by what I heard ONE Christian say, people would be outraged.  If I were to judge EVERY Muslim, Jew, Buddist, or whatever by what ONE or even TWO of them say, most would consider it extremely unfair.  Yet, this is the mantra atheists receive EVEN THOUGH their isn’t any DOGMA to atheism!  There’s no set creed, there is only non belief.  That’s it.

In addition to Jason’s link there is also this response from Harris to some of the controversy.

“My criticism of Islam:
Especially unscrupulous critics of my work have claimed that my critique of Islam is “racist.” This charge is almost too stupid to merit a response. But, as prominent writers can sometimes be this stupid, here goes:

My analysis of religion in general, and of Islam in particular, focuses on what I consider to be bad ideas, held for bad reasons, leading to bad behavior. My antipathy toward Islam—which is, in truth, difficult to exaggerate—applies to ideas, not to people, and certainly not to the color of a person’s skin.  My criticism of the logical and behavioral consequences of certain ideas (e.g. martyrdom, jihad, honor, etc.) impugns white converts to Islam—like Adam Gadahn—every bit as much as Arabs like Ayman al-Zawahiri. I am also in the habit of making invidious comparisons between Islam and other religions, like Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. Need I point out that most Hindus, Buddhists, and Jains are not white like me? One would hope there would be no such need—but the work of writers like Chris Hedges suggests that the need is pressing.

As I regularly point out when attacking Islam, no one is suffering under the doctrine of Islam more than Muslims are—particularly Muslim women. Those who object to any attack upon the religion of Islam as “racist” or as a symptom of “Islamophobia” display a nauseating insensitivity to the subjugation of women throughout the Muslim world. At this moment, millions of women and girls have been abandoned to illiteracy, forced marriage, and lives of slavery and abuse under the guise of “multiculturalism” and “religious sensitivity.” This is a crime to which every apologist for Islam is now an accomplice.”

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/response-to-controversy2/

The following is lifted from another site on a discussion of the upcoming debates.  This is a doctor relaying his concerns re: McCain’s health (or lack of).  It is a big concern because of Palin’s grade school guidance system.

DrDan
How much do you want to bet McCain will make sure the cameras face the right side of his face?

The left side of his face is horribly swollen and disfigured after his last melanoma surgery cut deep into his face, temple, and neck to pull out 35 lymph nodes.

I looked up the report from May when his medical records from the last ten years at Mayo Clinic in Phoenix were opened to a small group for a few hours. This fellow is sick.

66% chance of recurrence of his malignant melanoma. And they didn’t even do an MRI scan of his brain to see if the cancer had already metastasized. I guess he didn’t want to know. Or he didn’t want you to know.

Or didn’t want to see the evidence of the brain damage from all his accidents or the cortical atrophy that goes along with his progressive dementia.

In addition to five malignant cancers, McCain has chronic arthritis, chronic pain, insomnia, thyroid nodules, bilateral cataracts, fibrotic shrinkage of his left lung, a tumor in his right lung, high cholesterol, hypertension, and strong family history for risk of stroke and sudden death from cardiovascular disease.

He sleeps with Ambien at night and there is no workup in the last ten years to evaluate whether he has chronic PTSD or not. His past alcohol consumption was not recorded and liver and brain degeneration from alcohol was not assessed.

McCain takes a fluid pill, HCTZ - hydrochlorothiazide - either for blood pressure or to keep the swelling in his face down. No one would want the candidate to be cat-called as “elephant-man.”

With over 1200 pages of medical records I can say, as a physician, that this man does not have a “clean bill of health”. Unasked questions: does he take pain pills? Does he take narcotics for pain? Where is the Pain Clinic or pain specialist evaluation?

Why did he choose not to have his shoulders repaired - as he could any day - for the bilateral fractures to the top of the arm bones that occured when he ejected from his jet but failed to keep his arms tucked in. McCain’s arms broke in a “flail” injury pattern due to his mistake on ejection—- not due to “torture” in vietnam.

Do you think anyone will ask him at the debate why he allows people to think his obvious arm limitations were torture-related, rather than an ejection-related mistake?

As a physician I think McCain has been making impulsive decisions that are likely related to brain dysfunction. His memory is poor - but again, untested, according to the Mayo Clinic records.

My hunch is that he knows he is dying - and that is why he has thrown caution to the wind, compromised his principles, and gone all out with decisions - like Sarah Palin - that he won’t have to be around to take care of.

Why doesn’t someone ask John McCain what he would do if right now he knew he only had one year to live?

I don’t think he has the honor to step aside due to his health - and let someone else carry the burden and responsibility.

Why doesn’t someone ask him how he can reassure the American people he is not losing his mind if he won’t go for an MRI exam to rule out brain cancer?

Why doesn’t someone ask him if he knows what the rules are for the White House Doctor if he feels the President has become incapacitated?

Why doesn’t someone ask him if he knows whether or not Ronald Reagan was impaired by Alzheimer’s disease while he was president. And if so, was that good for national security?

As president, if he found his mental abilities compromised, would he let the country know and step aside?

Fadel Abdallah has a point here.  Harris and Hitchens, both intellectuals who look down on people like Palin, supported the war in Iraq, the most disasterous foreign policy blunder in American history and they continue to support it.  Harris’s prejudice against Arabs has become strident and hysterical.  He says that we may be fighting “Islamists” on “one hundred fronts.”  I take this to mean that he considers all people of the Islamic faith to be enemies of the US.  This is ignorant and dangerous.

Harris,

ReligioFacist don’t care about facts, all they need is faith and nothing else. An all knowing man in the sky, ordered talking points and faulty logic is all that’s needed to get them through the day.

Article quotes:
“I care even more about the many things Palin thinks she knows but doesn’t: like her conviction that the Biblical God consciously directs world events. Needless to say, she shares this belief with mil-lions of Americans—but we shouldn’t be eager to give these people our nuclear codes, either.”

“Which is to say she very likely thinks that human history will soon unravel in a foreordained cataclysm of war and bad weather. Undoubtedly Palin believes that this will be a good thing—as all true Christians will be lifted bodily into the sky to make merry with Jesus, while all nonbelievers, Jews, Methodists and other rabble will be punished for eternity in a lake of fire. Like many Pentecostals, Palin may even imagine that she and her fellow parishioners enjoy the power of prophecy themselves. Otherwise, what could she have meant when declaring to her congregation that “God’s going to tell you what is going on, and what is going to go on, and you guys are going to have that within you”?” (emphasis mine)

Great article.  Fundamentalists KNOW (they do not think this, they KNOW IT) that only “true Christians” are going to be saved.  To a “true Christian” everyone not of their “fold” and even a few in their “fold” are unworthy.  These will not “be saved” by the “true God”.  They are taught not to have pity for those “not saved”, there shall be no conscience or guilt for those ones. Only “weak adherents” empathize, sympathize or have second thoughts regarding measures “GOD” has ordained.  Who does this include…?  In a nutshell, every single living human being on the earth….except for their group.

What about the innocents…you might wonder…surely CHILDREN must be innocent…right?  While believers “understand” that these are only children, they KNOW that the children will pay for the “sins of their fathers” and are the offspring of uncleanliness and evil.  It is unacceptable to be “second guessing” GOD’S PURPOSE.  It is God’s will. Therefore, it is right and beyond the understanding of mere mortals.  In fact, “what would happen to all those orphans if they didn’t die immediately, anyway”? (I have heard this “qualification” with mine own ears.  Such a “kindness” the fundamentalists have, not wanting to see all those children suffer….no..?  For the record, (I’m not making this up) I was given dirty looks and snubbed for empathizing with CHILDREN…I had a sorry “lack of faith”...terrible…“weak-minded” and “faithless”.)  From my perspective, that last description is the saddist and happiest irony I’ve ever experienced.  One I feel only those who have “been there” could fully grasp.

Do I think Sarah Palin would take out a gun and kill non-believers.  Not at all, it’s too..oh…“messy”... for someone like Palin.  Do I think she would ORDER it…?  You bet.  A desk murder is exactly how I see Ms. Palin.

Ms. Palin, I think… would not concern herself with “details”, she would look for outcomes.  Are they “gone”....? Mission accomplished.  Do I think Ms. Palin is dangerous…..?  Do bears shit in the woods?

Fadel Abdallah wrote that Sam Harris is a cheerleader for the war in Iraq.  This is false, and the scornful and confident tone Fadel takes in his post thus makes him appear the fool.

From the following link, listen to part 3 of the Truthdig-sponsored debate between Harris and Hedges.  At 9 minutes and 20 seconds into that segment, Harris explicitly states that he has never defended the war in Iraq.

http://christianpwnage101.blogspot.com/2008/07/debate-sam-harris-vs-chris-hedges.html

Perhaps you were confusing him with Hitchens.  You wrote your post as if you were addressing Harris directly.  If you hope to ever be on the same intellectual footing as him, I suggest you learn to check your facts.

It’s the stupidity, stupid.

Have we not had enough leadership from bible thumping, gun toting, and flag sucking morons to do us two or three lifetimes?
I used to look the other way at these manics, however the time has come to call these meatheads out.
The belief in an all controlling, invisible man in the sky is a CHARACTOR FLAW!
When you think he tells you to blow people up, or invade countries for oil, stop acting on it, and seek professional help.

The good that organized faith has can never out weigh the bad. The pile of bodies is just too high.

Really Fadel?  Are atheist, truly, more dangerous than the gun toting, nation invading hoards of God fearing Christians running the political Right in this country since 1980?  I fear your perspective too narrow and not well though out. The belief in God or Allah washes not a scent of ill-conceived evil profered by the faithful who do wrong in the name of whomever.

And because you’d prefer Mrs. Palin’s weak-mindedness and obvious evasive tactics to that of an atheist, leads be to believe she my very well be your intellectual superior.

” ... without any intellectual training relevant to the challenges and responsibilities that await her…”
=================
Hello Mr. Harris Warmonger! Your criticism of Sarah Palin’s lack of “intellectual training” would have a better ring to it and more credibility if your own claim to “intellectual training” has prevented you from your record of being a cheerleader of the war on Iraq and your known rabid irrational attack on Islam to further inflame your “atheist Crusade.”

The difference between you and Sarah Palin is summarized in the one prefix of “anti”. While she might be a committed religious crusader, you are an anti-religious crusader. If I were in the business of accepting the less of two evils, I’ll take Palin’s evil over yours!