I agree that abuse is outragous. How do we define discipline for everyone, everywhere? How do we live and raise our children, and still retain the right and the decision to spank or not spank as individual families? Abusers and perverts are everywhere and our children should be protected from them. Do you classify a swat as heinous and severe? As abuse? When does physical redress become too harsh? It is not simple or easily definable.

I feel that the decision to use corporal punishment should be left in the hands of the parents who, within reason should discipline and permit discipline by others in the form they see fit. I received spankings when I was a child, and I am not a dysfunciontal felon, I am a college graduate with a positive outlook on life and a blossoming career. I feel good about myself, and I will never abuse my children when I decide to start having them just because I was spanked when I was one. I don’t think that corporal punishment in schools is always perceived in the correct light either. I did not receive it in my school and I am from a small southeast Texas town- it is not a widespread problem as it seems to appear to so many out there. The ONE school that I am even aware of that uses corporal punishment only does so at the written consent of parents, and the highschool kids decide to choose either corporal punishment or detention.
I feel for those that have experienced abuse and it’s psychological aftermath. I just don’t feel that all spanking is terrible or comparable.

It is ironic that some who desire an open forum for progressive ideas are so intent on generalizing and stereotyping the “South”. It is hard for me to imagine that someone who has never lived in the shoes of the millions that they try to typecast can so easily decide for them what their opinion on current affairs and personal beliefs are.

“most people in the south are ignorant and racist”. That statement in essence bites it’s own ass, and someone wishing to promote ideas centered around equality and modern social ideas should not use it.

Oh, I almost forgot.  I hope you enjoyed your dinner.

Hey Dave, we’ll see whose kid ends up where.

Beyond that, what in the world are you talking about?  You just spewed out a bunch of big words but didn’t provide any basis for your argument.  Are you saying that poverty is the result of capitalism?  Please explain.

I don’t have a TV, so you missed on the Fox News comment.  I get most of my news from CNN.com and my local newspaper (and Truthdig, of course).

And finally, I’ll be finishing my Master’s degree in Political Economy this fall(a hybrid of poly sci and economics).  So if you want to talk economics, you better bring a little bit more to the table.

I heard-on t.v.-the reason this “kid” was SWATTED[paddled]-This LARGE CHILD[looked about 15-16 years ol]....was SHOOTING RUBBER BANDS at CLASSMATES[thereby creating a disruption] and POSSIBLY PUTTING CLASSMATES SAFETY AT RISK.I’m sure he was NOT LISTENING TO THE PERSON IN CHARGE[the teacher] and I THINK-maybe-OTHER STUDENTS HAD SOME OBJECTIONS TO HIS HORSEPLAY[maybe they were even trying to learn something from the class/teacher]-AND….IT IS OBVIOUS THAT HIS PARENTS DID NOT EVER TEACH HIM ANY MANNERS since he certainly acts-in public- like small child with NO MANNERS-[maybe his excuse is ADHD???]

nrobi-

Do you really think that corporal punishment is the primary cause of our problems with crime?  History will not agree with you (neither will Singapore).

Maybe, just maybe, it has more to do with lack of parental involvement and the detached violence they see and hear everyday in games, TV, movies, music, etc.  Nah, couldn’t be that, must be the spankings.

jeff29

your kid may not end up on death row, but with an obtuse addle minded dad like yourself, he might end up at the end of a cheese line…

to disavow the very economic system and political paradigm that is in fact responsible for the very predicaments discissed here, is both intellectually myopic, and just plain stupid.

if you don’t recognize the cause, you cannot recognize, nor implement the solution. the existance of poverty and inequality is a requisite component of capitalism, and it’s eradication is both undesirable and impossible if the basic tenets of the capitalistic model are to be adhered to. I suggest that you stop watching Fox News and pick up an elemetary book on economic systems.

Dr. Knowitall—
How will those trillions eradicate poverty?  Probably the same way that throwing billions at the school system has improved education—oh, wait, hmmm.

Throwing money at the problem of poverty will feed people for a few years, when the next generation comes along, we’ll have the same old problems.

If you want to eradicate poverty (and please don’t bore me with the heartless, capitalist, neo-con, blah, blah, blah) eliminate the federal welfare system, and provide assistance at a local or state level only for those who truly cannot provide for themselves.

BTW, I spanked my son last week, does that mean he will end up on death row?

Fadel my answer to you was from another post, sorry about the off-topic thing. All you libs need to send some Brasso to the Obama team, seems like the shine is fading…...

Hippy Pam, I never thought I would be in agreement with you, some of what you speak is so true. also to Fadel, my reply to your comment was only done to improve my self, when people question what you write, dont assume that because they question you,that it is for the wrong reasons. It took some nads to say what you said.Nothing but respect for your answer. and back to Pam, most of the kids you are talking about ,might be Obama supporters.

McCain+anyone 08

In reading the comments posted to this story, it is amazing that some still believe that corporal punishment is a viable and legitimate means of disciplining children. Haven’t enough studies shown that when we, as adults strike a child it only increases the chance that the cycle will continue and that the child will learn that it is okay to hit someone in anger.
Surely our society has evolved enough to recognize the fact that violence will not solve our problems, any violence whatsoever. This includes war and the Death Penalty. Should we not, take a serious look at how violence, i.e., corporal punishment affects our children. And if the statistics show that the likelihood that this abominable behaviour will continue to occur, shouldn’t we put a stop to it once and for all. 
The Death Penalty as it is now administered in the State of Texas is a prime example of how ineffective the idea of violent punishment is. Today the state of Texas put to death a man for being in the car that was driven by someone who committed murder and was not privy to the plans of the person doing the crime. What deterrent effect does this form of violent and final punishment have to stop this from happening again?  I submit, NONE!
Should this country finally wake up and see the light, I am sure that there will be a rush to do away with the prerogative of teachers to punish children with corporal punishment, a mad rush to do away with the Death Penalty, and other forms of violent punishment that exist in our country.
Among the nations of the world, we are the only civilized nation left that routinely and regularly allows the Death Penalty as a form of punishment, this is an abominable situation, which actually starts with corporal punishment in the schools.
As applied in the South, corporal punishment is disproportionately given to male youth, especially those of African-American descent.
Something must change or we will end up with another generation of young African-American males in prison or worse, on Death Row for crimes committed by those upon whom corporal punishment was inflicted.

It is scary that some find anything of this nature okay or actually endorse it.

Beating up on children is the epitomy of ADULT INCOMPETANCE.  And it’s that simple.  If you think slapping up children is a good idea, YOU need help.

Try watching SuperNanny if you haven’t other resources.  And note while you’re watching that she NEVER has to “fix the messed up kids”, and there’s a good reason for that, THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH THE KIDS!  She spends the time EDUCATING the PARENTS, and there’s a good reason for that too…THEY DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY’RE DOING.

BigB, even george w bush admitted he received frequent beatings from his mother; research has shown there really isn’t much difference along economic lines regarding corporal punishment and child abuse, and actually there was an article recently that interviewed all the top corporate CEO’s, who said they had been spanked as children. 

Children are not born with any destructive tendencies, they are given them by parents who project all sorts of anger and hatred onto them due to the fact that they had split off their own childhood feelings due to so much abuse.  I do not need 5,000 years to to come to the point where I no longer have to beat or ‘dicipline’ children, and neither do you; I have already completed that evolution by repudiating the people who did this to me and taking the side of the child, and I am not ‘fat dumb, weak, lazy,’ or any of the other adjectives you used to describe people of my generation.  If you’re interested in having your opinions challenged more, you might look into Alice Miller.

So everyone is supposed to believe that every person behind prison walls today was abused with too much corporal punishment? I am as bleeding heart a liberal as they come, to hold onto this faulty pie in the sky idea that you can effectivly discipline all children by making them “feel bad” about what they have done and giving them a “time out” is naieve at best, and irresponsible at worst.
Our nation is currently being led by a cadre of wealthy and connected men that came from privleged backgrounds. They too probably never heard the word NO!
I hope that some day we will be evolved enough to be able to sit down and reason everything out in a civilized manner with everyone, children and adults alike. But that day may not be for another five thousand years or so. until then, I am going to stand outside our local state prison and tell the guards that all these men need released because they were probably paddled as children and all they really need is a “time out”

Sorry, no, Big B; Statistics show that 50 to 65 percent of American parents still administer spankings to their children, and that two thirds of children ages 3 to 5 are spanked three times a week.  So you have most definitely NOT seen three generations of american children who never experienced corporal punishment.  The children in Juvenile facilities are victims of corporal punishment, and other abuses.

While the Hippies had many great ideas to change the social makeup of America, their ideas concerning public education were at best flawed.
Without discipline on behalf of teachers and students our education system is doomed. But discipline starts at home, and we are now seeing the results of three generations of no corporal punishment, and the results are not pretty. Test scores have stagnated, drop out rates have skyrocketed, juvenile crime rates are higher than ever before. Why? these generations have not, for the most part, experinced any personal discipline at all. We have taught them that “everybody is a winner” and “everyone gets a trophy” when nothing could be further from the truth. We have taught them that there are no consequences for negative actions, short of a “time out”. We wonder why, on the whole, they are fat, weak, and dumb.
I am not saying that spanking children more often will turn things around, but it is a part of the solution. We do them no favors by teaching them that there are no physical consequences for there negative actions.
Our jails and juvenile facilities are filled with kids who where never told “no”.
When you shoot someone, the jury does not give you a “time out”, they throw you ass in jail, the adult equivilent to a spanking.
Without personal discipline and responsibility our massive public educational system cannot succeed. Americans have proven incapable of either, because we live under the faulty assumtion that we are all privledged, and we are all “winners”
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Corporal Punishment is a serious attack on the human body that has consequences for the victim including PTSD, sexual disfunction, brain damage, and a paralyzing fear that makes the educational process NULL AND VOID.  The US has very high rates of violent crime because most children are still spanked at home; because their bodies are violated, their feelings are ignored, and then they take this relationship out on other people; the 15 nations in the world that have banned spanking completely in accordance with the UN Convention On The Rights Of The Child have much, much lower rates of violent crime, sexual assault, and mental illness than the US does, especaily the southern states. 

There most definitely were, by the way, widespread, violent, criminal youth gangs back in the 1950’s when children were constantly paddled at home and at school. Violence, violation, and hatred act as a cycle from what is inflicted against children to what they will later act out on the rest of the world.

It is time to end authoritarian views on education, stop demonizing children, and thereby make our society safer and less war-mongering.

When I was in school, boys were punished more than girls.  Asian kids were seldom punished, but they pretty much stayed out of trouble.

As an American male in my 40’s, I was part of what may have been the last generation that were “spanked” as a disciplary tool. I was never personally “paddled” while in school, however there was a very good reason for that. I was informed by my mother at an early age that if I perpetrated any action in school that would require my being “paddled”, I should hope that they kill me, because that’s what would happen to me when I got home! The point is that to corporally punish children at school that know no discipline at home would be perceived by some as child abuse, as well as being pointless because of that point of view.
That being said, you can spank a child without abusing it!
The problem with child discipline in America is that we are a country of excesses. If a little spanking can do some good to child, then beating them with a whiffle ball bat and locking them in the closet should make them an upright citizen. To the opposite end, giving children petty, non impact discipline, like a “timeout”, or attempting to talk reason with a 5 year old, is tanamount to teaching a pig to sing. American parents fail to realize that the best way to discipline our children probably lies somewhere between the aformentioned extremes.
Think about what a piss poor job the last couple of generations of parents have done in the discipline arena when you at the mall this weekend and see 14 year old girls dressed like a Bankock hookers and saying things that would embarrass Andrew Dice Clay. Think about it when you watch the news and see 14 year old black and hispanic boys in the inner city being zipped up in body bags after a shootout at 2 am. For one reason or another, a single parent that doesn’t have the time or heart for discipline, or an upper middle class white parent that thought mom and dad were to “rough” with him, they often arrive at the same location. The difference is not nesessarily exaserbated by racism, although we are all aware that the underlying racism in our society is palpable. No, there is often no difference between what happens to a black or white kid when they fuck up. That is the problem, 9 times out of 10 nothing happens to them. Which, of course, causes them to do it again.
“Go for it!”
“no fear!”
These have turned into horrible mantras for a generation

hippy pam, you’d certainly find that to be the case here and there, but, I’ve worked with kids in diverse places my entire life and find the opposite to be true.

Generally, they want to try and to do well.  If they don’t, it’s very seldom, if ever, their fault.

Take the trillions of $$$ Bush/congress have spent on killing kids in SE Asia and the MidEast in the last few decades and use it to eradicate poverty in the US and, I believe, much of the kid behaviour which frustrates impatient adults will disappear. Some of that $$$ could also be used to help adults understand how and why kids’ behaviour mirrors society.

It should be abusive enough of kids that adults blame kids for kid behaviour.  Why throw salt in those wounds by beating up on them?

Reply to dave-YOU MISUNDERSTAND ME..I am Native American[I just look white]-My good friend who I worked with for years[she introduced me to chitterlings and is black]was also robbed…By 2 WHITE UNDERAGE PERPS….who WERE ARRESTED IN THEIR PARENTS HOME[unlike “my robbers” who were not even questioned]despite MY GRAND MOTHERS BRACELET ON THE PERPS MOTHERS ARM….OUR SOCIETY IS OUT OF CONTROL-OUR CHILDREN ARE [not all of them] LAZY UNCOUTH RUDE UNCARING ANIMALS-AND WE HAVE ALLOWED THIS TO HAPPEN-THANKS TO THE DO GOODIES WHO DO NOT ALLOW ANY ONE TO DISCIPLINE-[I do not condone PHYSICAL VIOLENCE]-but if more of these kids were taught RULES..maybe our schools would be safer which would allow the students who do WANT TO LEARN the right to do it in a safer environment.[I sure rattled your chain]

saggy

my, my…..

so i am jewish (i am not) because my name is Dave??

is your name hippy pam? no? then why are you responding to me?
if yes, do you enjoy talking to yourself much?

your racist attitudes have no place in civil discussion. your witless retorts are shining testimony to your lack of intellect. if you have nothing to contribute that doesn’t rise above the appeal of skinheads, neonazis, or the kkk, please espouse your filth elsewhere. The enlightened posters on Truthdig have no time for you.

hippy pam

and how does this all relate to corporal punishment in school? if these kids were paddled they wouldn’t have stolen your stuff? is that your position? or maybe if they weren’t black…..

let me clue you in my racist friend; the reason that people, ALL people, not just young and non-white, are rude and lazy, unambitious and corrupt, is that there is no accountabilty anymore. and why? because the powers that be want it that way. they have you fightining amongst yourselves to distract you while they make off with world.

but getting back to this issue. hitting people and humiliating them is a recipe that ensures their non-compliance. giving them expectations and hope, that’s a recipe for cooperation. fulfilling those expectations with an education and a job, in other words, a life, ensures their compliance.

if that were the reality, then all “those” people wouldn’t have to rap and dribble their way into your home and lift your costume jewelry.

reply to saggy-THANK YOU for seeing this.My home was robbed-The parents of the perps[caught WITH SOME OF MY STOLEN ITEMS] would not let the police ON THEIR PROPERTY -The police wanted to question the UNDERAGED perps[yes-they were black]about WHO MASTERMINDED THE BREAK IN…[oh yeah-the mother was wearing MY GRANDMOTHERS ANTIQUE BRACELET but since I was not there to see it-the detective described it to me-NOTHING CAN BE DONE.]These people are STILL ON THE STREET…

Has anybody [besides me] taken a moment to notice that the majority[not all]of our young people are RUDE-LAZY-CANNOT ARTICULATE-UNEDUCATED[oops-let’s blame the school system for that] and THEY HAVE NO AMBITION[beyond being a hoops star/rapper/dog fighter/gangsta/drug dealer/thug]-.......

like everything else it is allowed because we allow it.

when I was little, around 10, and in the mid-60’s, I lived with my family in England. Attending a british school, and being “an American”, I was a little out of place, and not versed in the local norms. When asked a question by my teacher, I innocently replied “yeah” and not the expected “yes, sir.” My hands were immediately spread out, and I was wacked, rather forcefully, across my knuckles with a hard ruler. It hurt.
when I informed my mom after getting home, she was incensed that her child was treated in that manner. the next day she went down to the school, came into my class, and confronted the teacher personally. she made her position very clear to this guy that i was not to be touched ever again for any reason, and if i was, she would be seeing him again, and on that occasion she would not be nearly as nice. she then proceeded to the Headmasters office and chewed him out, and once again stated that I was never to be touched and the consequences would be severe if I was. I was never touched again. but the british kids were.
if more parents took an active role in what their children are experiencing, then perhaps this pernicious behaviour by our schools would cease. if more parents directly confronted the people responsible for these afronts, perhaps they would cease.
this happened over 40 years ago to me. yet i still see it my mind as though it were yesterday; my mom defending and protecting her kid, and being involved with what was going on in my life. she made sure that not only did she confront the system (Headmaster), she also went outside the system directly confronting the person doing the deed, making sure they knew they would pay a price for their actions irrespective of what the “system” dictated.
the point being: sometimes ya just gotta take care of business yourself.

In America, the South has a disproportionate number of Death Row inmates, imprisoned African-American men, and it starts with the fact that corporal punishment, is still allowed in most states in the South.
Is this really America? Can this be the same country that I live in?
Texas has the most Death Row inmates and commits, the most murders of any state in the US. How in the world are they getting away with it? Isn’t America supposed to be a country, where the rule of law is the highest priority?  That we are all equal under the law and most of all isn’t the law supposed to be applied equally across the board?
Why then do we still have states, where the practices of corporal punishment and the Death penalty are applied disproportionately to men of color?  Inherent in this system is an overly paternalistic ideal, which states that, “we the elite white educated people, who have the money and control the economy,” know what’s best for you and you have to follow our rules or else!
Given the lack of proper restraint and the lack of respect for the citizens of the South, by the authorities, isn’t it about time that the Federal Government stepped in and did something about the Death penalty, but even more so, started at a young age, respecting those who are different from the “ruling class,” and did away with the idea of corporal punishment for minor infractions of rules that are geared toward those among the elite and moneyed classes of the South?