By Bentor, August 19 at 11:56 am #
(Unregistered commenter)

Fellowdigger “Read the damn bible - old and new - it makes no sense “

How untrue this is. We have a “great text” course in several universities. The bible is in most of them.

If it makes no sense to you, you must be illiterate. It makes great sense, if you read it. Clearly, you never have.”

I have read the bible - many times.  It makes no sense - in fact it is nonsense!!!!!!!!! - it may be studied in every university but so are many great fiction writers and of course Saggy’s friend Hitler

Sags….
old buddy….
well,... at this point in the ‘conversation’, I will just leave you to your
hatred, and hope that it does not consume you or your family.
Maybe, you will have a brighter tomorrow.

It’s too bad you missed out a chance to participate in all the ‘fun’ with your nazi buddies during WW2,.. you’ll just have to be a bit wistful and pine for those good old days…....

I hear Iran, is looking for a few ‘good men’, got yer papers in order?

Sags…..
cmon’ now…... yer graspin’ a straws
so the State of Florida has a Holocaust education program and that’s proof eh?
geeze..it even contains a message from the radical jewish sympathizer Jeb Bush…

the Florida Bd. of Ed…................. the manual is meant to “foster
respecting and celebrating diversity”, becoming a “responsible and respectful individual’......  radical concepts like teaching “act morally and responsibly”.. “tolerance”..“family responsibility”.....“appreciating diversity in cultures”.... “examining the harm caused by prejudicial behavior”... ( I think you were absent that day Sags’ ).........

and the manual even has information about <gasp> Elizabeth Blackwell and Ghandi..  damn!!!!

in other words it’s a guide to help students from an early age be more tolerant
respectful of other people regardless of background, ya know.. sorta like those high minded words contained in those somewhat regarded documents Americans say matter: the Constitution and the Bill of Rights…..

you posted the link Sags’.... maybe you should read the whole document, it might just help you ......

Saggy, you crazy boy you..
if you and your boys say it… it must be true, as their academic standing is ‘beyond question’......  man,  you are too funny…...

  ‘Histriography’, the site run by Greg Raven &  other “revisionists”.:

here’s a great quote from Mr. Raven:
” I will say, however, that he [Hitler] was a great man ... certainly greater
than Churchill and FDR put together,  and possibly the greatest leader of our
century, if not longer. This is not to say that he was perfect, but he about
the best thing that could have happened to Germany.”

Saggy… good buddy…..... you must be a member in good standing with the
Institute for Historical Review (IHR), the famous “antisemitic “pseudo-academic body” with links to neo-Nazi organizations, and assert that its primary focus is denying key facts of Nazism and the genocide of Jews and others,,, often described as the “world’s leading Holocaust denial organization.

man… you’ve got everbody goin’ for ya… Dave McCalden, Mark Weber , the absolute epitome of ‘objective historians’.

The very same Mark Weber:  activist in the National Alliance, one of the largest and most active neo-Nazi organization in the nation. ... dozens of violent crimes, including murders, bombings and robberies, have been traced to NA members or appear to have been inspired by the group’s propaganda.

So lets summarize:, Hitler was great, no holocaust, Nazi’s never did anything wrong and ‘the jews’ are responsible for all evil since the beginning of time.

You are starting to remind of the Nazi’s in the movie Blues Brothers.

re: Saggy
“The Nazis attempted to expel the Jews, they did not attempt to exterminate them.”

... they couldn’t expel ‘the jews’ fast enough, really?  forced labor in concentration camps…... and then they killed them…

......so very ‘christian’ of the nazis

hi, guys I am rocky I think about it McCain only thinks you’re rich is you earn over 5 million a year, but I guess that comes from his wife who probably knocks down at least 5 mill a year. McCain did a nice tap dance trying to work his way around taking any responsibility for the last eight years, after admitting America is worse off than four years ago. Now it comes out that McCain was on his way to Saddleback instead of in the soundproof room.
rocky
owa Drug Treatment

Profound words of wisdom, great helpings of humor and little bits of idiocy.
[I love truthdig! ]

Thanks guys!

Thinking about writing a book.

I shall title it:
“Looking forward to living in Obama Nation”

Subtitled:
“It takes a mighty force to move an anthill”

By kath cantarella, August 17 at 7:44 pm #

•  “You know, when it comes down to it, it seems like Obama didn’t dissemble here, and he didn’t cave… (while McCain snivelled and fawned). I’m actually becoming quite proud of Mr O, i wish he was Aussie! ….Does the USA know what it’s got in Obama? (i.e. a real chance at saving itself.) I hope so, for everyone’s sake. ….I’m off to look up this Clarence Thomas guy…? “
Kath,
I read you comment, (specifically the part about “Does the USA know what it’s got in Obama” and my immediate answer, (to myself of course) was NO! It’s SOOOOO embarrassing, and as an American who DOES know, it’s just the worst feeling of despair, to think that there are enough of my fellow citizens willing to sell us all out to our final demise, just because they obviously DON’T KNOW!
WHY don’t they know? Ignorance. Here’s a very rudimentary example.

By Erika H., August 17 at 3:26 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)

“Wow. Many of you are so racist towards christians.
You try to push your view on other people. Its really sad…Even McCain said the states should choose. Not the federal government.

You say you hate the government but you want to use it as a tool to take religion away from others. That is not the America this nation was founded on.”
~~~~~
The firs line says it all. “RACIST toward CHRISTIANS?????

Great. Now Christians are a *race*, and we’re to assume that this entire ‘race’ of Christians hold the same viewpoint on birth control and abortion, and that the US was founded on or by the ‘race’ and the people of the other races, (non-Christians) are trying to take them out. (by taking away their religion).

I mean, what else can we gather from a thought process that believes people are ‘racist’ toward Christians?

You see our dilemma here right? Americans are killing each other with ignorance. Makes me wish I was Aussie.

Meantime, when you start looking into the nightmare and terror of Clarence Thomas, make sure you don’t do it on an empty stomach.

My fingers and toes are crossed. My rabbit’s foot is adorned with a four leaf clover, sitting atop a horseshoe. There. I’m ready! I and the nations other liberals are now prepared for Barry to START RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT! I now close my eyes and rub my rabbits foot raw and hope that he is now finished with his foray into the churches of the religeous right, you know them Barry, they are the ones that have called you a traitor, a muslim, a “liberal.” They are just getting warmed up Barry, between now November they will accuse you of bowing towards Mecca from the stairs of the senate, being “soft” on terrorism, and chasing little fourteen year old white girls around your hotel room trying to give them a “Kobey”. Jesus, the longer this campaign goes on the more I think Barry is just John Kerry in blackface.
Hey Berry, There’s alot of people over here (yea, that’s it, look to your LEFT, YES YOUR LEFT, THAT’S THE HAND THAT CURRENTLY HAS YOUR THUMB STUCK UP YOUR ASS!) How about trying to kiss my ass between now and election day. When it’s all said and done I am a damn site more likley to vote for you than Hagee or Dobson.

“We must respect the other fellow’s religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart”

H.L. Mencken

re: Saggy

“Still, it is this issue that has really punished the Christians and turned them into a persecuted group as opposed to their former status.  And the Jews have surely compounded this by their efforts to get Christianity out of every aspect of public life (I’ve got the facts on this one).”

If I sat here and researched all the ways that Christians have persecuted Jews I would not have time for anything else - of course, we can start with the holocaust…...or don’t you “believe” that happened -

“I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology..”

Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Paine was wrong because he didn’t understand the base line of his audience - crazy.  Good ole Thomas Paine - oh, man - the man was brillant.

Show me the reference to Jesus Christ in anything that the founding fathers wrote that became our documents of the new nation - show me them - yes they talked about the “Creator”  but that could even apply to Einstein’s god which was basically just the universe unfolding (yes, I know first he believed it was static.)  I believe in a Creator but certainly not Jesus - that belief is complete and utter madness.  Read the damn bible - old and new - it makes no sense - none - read the things Jefferson, Franklin and Paine said about Christianity

And all the people who ever had abortions before that were Jewish and all the doctors that performed them were Jewish - right?

Oh good ol Thomas Paine. American philosopher and one of the founding fathers. A proponent of Republicanism who did author some fine writings defending the American Revolution. He also once claimed “When I get through, there will not be five bibles left in America”. I think he might have been wrong about that.

It’s a far stretch to claim that this country was founded by Deists.  Most were of Judeo- Christian beliefs…

Christians love to whine - whine ...whine…whine.  Everywhere in this country we are hit over the head with the “Christian ideal” (some ideals) but it is not enough - they want those of us who don’t believe to be totally immersed in their nonsense day in and day out.  Deist founded this country and any intellegent person knows it - read Thomas Paine. As far as “the Jews” using abortion to beat down Christians - well I have heard some inane statements on this blog but that was the best.  Just because we are succesful when we work so hard is no reason to be so paranoid all the time - we have enough and don’t need your Jesus also and for that you are constantly sending us to your imaginary hell - and believe me, listening to you folks whine is pretty hellish

Re: msgmi

That is an ignorant statement. This is a democracy, majority rules like it or not. That is exactly what the founding fathers had in mind. The establishment clause protects all citizens from “forced religion”. It does not extend to taking away ones religious freedom.

There is nothing wrong with Christians vetting the candidates against their core beliefs. That is the greatness of this country and if you take that away, we are no better than other Authoritarian forms of government.

Just as a Christian has no right to force you to agree with them, neither do you have a right to force others to agree with your own religious views.  If they want to vet the candidates, let them. That is within their rights to do so.

McCain is the only one looking to seat Supreme Court Justices that adhere to the constitution and do not legislate from the bench.

He correctly called out Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens. Their interpretation of the application of the constitution has impacted your rights as a citizen and they do legislate from the bench.

Have you ever read their decisions? More of you agree with Clarence Thomas, Alito and Scalia than you realize.

http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/07slipopinion.html

Do you really think when push comes to shove the American people will vote for McBush?
McCain is the man who voted to send our bravest to die looking for weapons of mass destruction that did not exist.
McCain is the man who does not know that 9-11 was caused by Osama Bin Laden not Sedam Hussein.
McCain is the man who does not know if the Sunnis or Sheits are our enemies!
McCain is the man who put our government on the China, Saudi Arabia credit card.
McCain is the man has adopted virtually the entire Bush agenda, often reversing long held positions and compromising supposed core principles. From Iraq, tax cuts for the wealthy, broken promises on the deficit to opposition to SCHIP, tax credits for health care, overturning Roe v. Wade and a right-wing Supreme Court, without question John McCain represents a third Bush term.
Get real!
Our only hope is Obama.

For many years, the Government Schools have been indoctrinating youth into believing one “science” view and forced religion out. In fact, I would be willing to bet that the majority of you that consider yourself agnostic / atheist are a byproduct of the Government School System. You think the way they want you to think…

Many years ago, I was helping my nephew with his school work when we happened upon the statement “separation between church and state” as being a constitutional right. You will not find any such statement in the constitution yet his teacher insisted it was there. She flew into a rage when challenged to prove it.

You would have to be crazy to put your kids into the Government School System.

Hey Chris - I totally agree with you The line now has been crossed by Obama.  I am going to write in Stuart’s mother from MadTV.  I thought I was going to lose it when I heard two grow-up men/politicians telling us that they were “sinners” and Jesus came to “redeem them” - YIKES

To Rowman
“The interpretations heard today completely distorts the original purpose of the letter and its contents. It is often used to drive religion underground and out of the public square when its purpose was to actually keep the government out of religious concerns.”

When did that statement ever drive religion underground?

>evangelical-imperialistic?<

America may be on its way : (

I just finished looking at the Warren sessions and it appears Obama tried to stay within the guidelines laid down, not to give “stump speech’s” and to answer the questions truthfully and frankly. McCain lapsed into his campaign stuff with his personal anecdotes which are nice unless you’ve heard them 50 times already, and how many times did McCain say “My friends”? Rich Warren said today that he thought Obama’s answers were more reflective which was true. McCain at times will flippant, and tried to make funny too much. McCain only thinks you’re rich is you earn over 5 million a year, but I guess that comes from his wife who probably knocks down at least 5 mill a year. McCain did a nice tap dance trying to work his way around taking any responsibility for the last eight years, after admitting America is worse off than four years ago. Now it comes out that McCain was on his way to Saddleback instead of in the soundproof room. He was probably listening to Obama’s comments on XM radio which carries CNN and Fox. Obama will get dinged for this “not in my pay grade”, which is a term that should never be used. It smacks too much of Washington DC type jargon (the pay grade capitol). It was nice to know that McCain knows for certainly when life begins. Maybe he should run for Pope!

I’m biased, but Obama’s responses came off as more honest than McCain’s.  All of McCain’s answers seemed to serve a purpose—remind people he was a war prisoner, atone for screwing up his first marriage, pushing the I am a Christian button.  These are the kind o f responses that job candidates are coached to give in interviews. 

I don’t think McCain is all that religious.  I don’t think Obama is either, to be frank.  I do think that Obama ponders the ethical questions in life very much; he’s clearly a reflective person. 

But people heard what they wanted to hear.  Regarding presidential candidates, I don’t care whether they are Christians, and I certainly wouldn’t want a president to lead from that point of view.  I care more about their ethical framework as it relates to the constitution and the ideals of democracy. 

I hope we can put this religion business aside now.  I’d be very worried if our democracy turned into a theocracy.  In fact, I wish on inauguration day that presidents stopped swearing on bibles.  They should swear on the constitution, as that’s what their job is all about.

Many times the things people have posted here about the sheep-like qualities of theamericanpeople remind me of the work of John Taylor Gatto.  Fifteen years ago he was very much a part of the debate on public education but today the debate is over and the other side won.  If you don’t remember him or have not heard of him, google him and read on.

The phrase “separation between church and state” originated from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Church in 1802. He was addressing a church concern about the states involvement in church affairs.

The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court in 1878.

The interpretations heard today completely distorts the original purpose of the letter and its contents. It is often used to drive religion underground and out of the public square when its purpose was to actually keep the government out of religious concerns.

Isn’t there SOME LAW out there concerning THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE??I seem to remember some state??? I cannot recall which one…that REMOVED a “statue” thingey of the 10 commandments in some COURT HOUSE ROTUNDA??????I still think we need to throw the whole thing out and start over…..Our people in charge SUCK and we can’t/won’t stand up and FIRE THEM…..

Oh, by the way, I do believe in Jesus. Surprise! He did a fine job on the roof and the tile in the hallway. If you need his number let me know.

I for one would have been a bad interview for Reverend Dick. You see I don’t believe much at all. I have a limited amount of knowledge that I work toward increasing as I go through my life. I have thoughts of my own based on this accumulated knowledge. Anybody else do that? I know there are a few of us out there. Of the few things I believe, that is I think are true without proof, I present the following. I think the good Reverend Dick has accumulated power and wealth based on feeding brainwashed simpletons his happy talk and then separating them from their hard earned cash. I also believe he was smart to lose the $1000 suits and show up most days in a Hawaiian shirt. Brilliant I have to admit. Dick is far more effective than Creflo Dollar in my estimation of carnival barkers. I also think my beliefs have a far better chance of being proven true than those of Rev Dick.

Who appointed this charlatan to interview these candidates? Why only these two? Perhaps there are candidates of “greater faith” that deserve my consideration. Oh that’s right! This is the US, we are force-fed our ass clowns….er presidential candidates. But I digress. When did we vote for this? Who needs this? Do we care what fantasies these two men believe? (Perhaps we should.) If they don’t believe, do you think they would come out and tell anyone? Would you vote for them if they lied about faith?

Do we want our president praying instead of taking action? If it is the “will of god” what happens, why have a military? Why not simply pray for god’s protection? That would not be testing god that would be testing OUR faith. Oh, you don’t have faith in god? Shame on you!

What these two ass clowns believe on the basis of no tangible proof is meaningless. If either of them has belief in something patently unproven it should disqualify them from office. People that believe in “invisible friends” are typically thought of as having mental problems. I for one do not want a disturbed person to be running for office let alone elected to office. You can chalk our current problems up to that scenario.

You’ve already seen what the current ass clown has done. War in Iraq, oil crisis with no alternative energy plan, the economy near collapse and Putin using us for a doormat while our guy is grinning at the Olympics. “I looked the man in the eye,” he said of Putin afterward. “I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy, and we had a very good dialogue . . . I was able to get a sense of his soul.” GWB

This is what happens when you search for fantasy. You find nightmares.

There are a number of quotes attributed to Napoleon that fit this instance very well. You were never taught this kind of thing in school; our own Napoleons do not want us to know the truth. Keep in mind that Napoleon was a war monger, tyrant and a supreme politician and in these quotes, delivered not for public consumption, he lets us all see the reality that governs the world. “Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich.” “In politics stupidity is not a handicap.” “Few really believe. The most only believe that they believe or even make believe.”

These two highly educated men are trying to make you believe that they believe and nothing more. Why? Because they know that you, the American voter, are so primitive in your thinking that you will only vote for someone that shares the same delusions. The truth is out there people. Read anything by the great thinkers of our own time. Dennett, Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens, Russell or if those folks use words too big for you to comprehend, try George Carlin or Julia Sweeney. We refuse to read though. We would rather pay to read the happy talk of Pastor Dick Warren. He’s getting rich off of us! But he does tell a great story where we will get our just reward in our “next life”. “The Purpose Driven Life” Very nice, his purpose is to keep us in our place. Bon voyage!

Cyrena said: “I still wish we could have an atheist or agnostic president.”
Cyrena I wholeheartedly support you and I hope that you will enjoy my playful answer: “amen.”

Obama’s reply: Clarence Thomas.

“I don’t think he was a strong enough jurist or a legal thinker at the time for that. I profoundly disagree with his interpretation” of the Constitution, he said.

Really senator.. well mccain named a few. Why didn’t you? I guess you agree with Scalia and the other right wingnuts interpretation.  Oh, that’s right, we already know you do.. You voted to crush the 4th amendment. I’m sure you made Bush & Cheney’s best bud Scalia proud with that one.  Oh, nevermind. That hug tells it all.

Fellowdigger:

You say:
——-
And yes, there is something terrible wrong with a Christian gathering on TV with the top two contenders for the most powerful position in the world discussing these issues and it never would have been done for any other religious group.
———
I believe that some of the posters here would disagree with you—they believe Jewish organizations pipe the tunes to which these men dance.

In fact, wasn’t everybody her discussing the candidates appearing at a Jewish political organization just a couple weeks ago?

What exactly do you think is wrong with this activity. What are the specific harms suffered and by whom and to what interest?

I think it is important that liberal values (in the 18th century use of the word—meaning limited secular government with separation of church and state) prevail over establishing a Christian Sharia here in America, but how does politicians pandering for votes in “religious settings” differ from politicians pandering for votes at say the Chamber of Commerce?

It’s idea of politicalized fundamentalism—ruling by “the word,” that scares me not so much the elbow rubbing. Didn’t the founders rub elbows with preachers? Didn’t Lincoln?

Religious activism has played important roles in American social progress—elimination of slavery, reform of work rules, easing poverty, eliminating segregation.

These were all uncharacteristically different from what we have today. The advocated democracy changing in some specific way. Today’s argument is that democracy must comply with literal reading of the Bible.

Why do dimmos insist on once again wasting time and money pandering to the religeous right for votes? You won’t see Mac buddying up to the secular humanist society for votes. But unfortunatly, Barry for some reason is attending Q and A sessions at Nazi megachurches that are filled with people that are either afraid of his skin color, or would gleefully see him hang ten from the oak tree near the church parking lot. They have a whole new reason to not vote for him, other than his being a dimmocrate. But rest assured, they would not vote for him anyway. So why waste time and money on a situation that, for a dimmo, is lose-lose?
While I personally consider it a charactor flaw to think an invisible man in the sky created and manages everything that ever was, it does not change the fact that many people in the US still hold on to this childish delusion. (why can’t each of us just do the right thing because it’s the right thing, not because we’re trying to earn enough brownie points to insure a cushy afterlife?) But I digress. The TRUE religeous right will not vote for a dimmocrate, even a homogenized, centurist, social conservative (who happens to be black). The dimmos time should be being spent doing what has won the repugs nearly all of the recent presidential elections, CONSOLIDATE YOUR BASE! I will grant you that it is harder to get the dimmo faithful together than the mindless drones of the polital right. (we are “liberals” after all) But to win, it must be done.
Barry and the boys have also forgotten the political axiom that has driven repug success for a generation now, and that is you can have all the best hopes and aspirations, all the plans layed out, but if you are unwilling to do what it takes to WIN THE FUCKING ELECTION, all those best layed plans might as well be written on the cocktail napkins that will placed under the highballs served in the losers lounge on election eve.

McCain says he won’t impose his views on others.  That’s true - he won’t have to; he’ll let the supreme court do it.  He says he will never appoint even moderate judges like Souter and Breyer.
Politics is about pushing people around and fucking them over without looking back - the antithesis of Christianity.  It’s absurd to be asking politicians questions about religion.

Purplewolf - you should send that to the editorial page of the NY Times - so true, so sad but true

John says he would not impose his views unto others, however, by saying he is pro-life and will support legislation favoring anti-abortion policy positions, is imposing his views unto others who believe differently.

Last time I checked, there was NO religious requirement to run for and be elected president of America. It needs to be discouraged and quickly. It has become too personal as far as demanding that those running for office be Christians, blaming others for things that happened when they were a child on the running candidates, expose their private sexual lives(most males have experimented sexually before and during marriage, and other private things that should be left private. If it has nothing to do with job performance, and it is obvious that today in America, it is less about how to run this country-notice I said “this” and not other people’s countries,and that it is more about feeding the fundamentalist frenzy of anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-female rights, and numerous other religious rules these roughly 40% of the religious population in America want to force into rule of land and unto all others.

This country was never founded by Christians or that it was given to you by your Gods given rites. It was stolen, lied about, murdered for, swindled and taken under numerous unscrupulous ways, like the blanket fever(smallpox-the 1st time germ warfare was used in the history of people), broken treaties-every one of them, genocide of the indigenous people by disease, starvation, murder and torture all done by the charitable hands of the Christians who stole this country from the original peoples. If this is your God who you claim gave this land to you by these means, you worship what you would call the antichrist and anyone associating with the likes of these Christian religions must be avoided at all costs for the survival of everything.

When religions runs the countries, take England for example, which is why those people left there and other radical religious countries in the world, they have a very poor track record on human rights, they are among the most cruel, oppressive, violent forms of ruling people, as history proven. So before demanding that religion tops all, take a good look at the recent past, and current times, as to how well these system work. If you think your rights are restricted somewhat now, you haven’t seen anything yet. If you do not fit the narrow field of their chosen form of what ever ruling religion is, do not be surprised if you are condemned to death if you do not change to the accepted religion. And that is no guarantee either. Don’t think it can happen here? Wrong. These radical types believe in it, as it is God’s will to destroy what they think are non-believers. Happens to this day all over the world. America is not exempt to this. Thanks to the religious right and the suck up politicos, many are trying to turn America into a theocracy. Many feel the only book to teach in schools is the Bible and no other books be allowed. This included one branch of Christianity that I attended for a while.(And yes, this government has spied on it and continues to do so.) Science and other classes are to be condemned and forbidden as these groups want to take us back to the dark ages with little/no education and promoting heresy and ignorance and superstition the ultimate goal. Another example of this type of mindset: Ann Colter, who feels that all Democrats and Liberals should be put to death in America. Just more of the Christian Conservative movement and their views of what they think this country should be.

Cyrens is right in that we need to have an atheist or agnostic run for president. At least they will not let a book of provable falsehoods make the rules in which to run the country. But the Christians would probably burn them at the stake for being a non-believers.

Saggy

Grow up - do you actually believe George Bush won because he was pro-life?  That is so crazy…..he won the election because the neo-cons stole it from Gore.  Maybe Obama believes what he stated - I’m not voting for him but the subject of having an abortion really has nothing to do with him unless he is pregnant and it’s his decision.

Issywise
“Preachers used to be shepherds of souls, now they are mere ward bosses trading votes for imposition of religious tyranny—piece by piece.”

Hmmm, that must have been in some other time and place - maybe MARS.

And yes, there is something terrible wrong with a Christian gathering on TV with the top two contenders for the most powerful position in the world discussing these issues and it never would have been done for any other religious group.  Glad we have remotes.  Obama should have refused citing the founding father’s many references to this subject as his reason.  Screw the vote of the fundamentalists.  Can you imagine Nixon and Kennedy spending two hours discussing their religious convictions - once again I have fallen into the rabbit hole

It has been written that when Jesus cautioned his followers against being misled, he identified the anti-Christ as “He who lives and loves a lie.” So much for high-minded Christian principles guiding our political decisions, eh?

Harrumph!

That’s me expressing my indignation! Righteous or self-righteous, I don’t care how it’s perceived. This “forum” was a fraud! Unless or until the dim-bulbs who make these decisions get their respective acts together and stop wasting money and time and airwaves on highlighting what is probably the LEAST important issue in THIS presidential campaign, the so-called Christian position, [no pun intended, even though we are all getting screwed] I’m going to take up knitting and to heck with all of them!

Of course I wont, knit that is ... my fingers don’t work that well. But I darn sure am going to speak up every time I hear some holier-than-thou spout Christian values as the guidepost to politics. That’s like sending a blind man into traffic!

Fellowdigger - right on (except the media are not about to yell outrage since it was, afterall, a media event.)

“No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the US.”  The Framers.  Some will argue that in the strict sense that abomination we witnessed last night was not a religious test.  I say bull-pucky.

As a matter of fact, the only thing I heard last night was the deafening sound of the shredder as yet more of our Constitution made it into the dust bin along side the Fourth Amendment, habeas corpus…

Some of you more verbal people out there can help me with a word.  It’s a word, like or akin to manipulation and would describe what has happened here.  Could even be called bullying. 

There should be no religious considerations in politics, period.  Notwithstanding, Righteous Reverend Rick seized upon the opportunity to press his religious agenda, on behalf of the RR in this country to engage the two candidates in a religious moral discussion as part of this political campaign.

McCain would not have refused the invitation;  Obama should have but would have comitted political suicide by doing so.

Righteous Reverend Rick knew this.

I listened to a CNN interview of three “clergy” in which this “forum” was discussed.  One of the participants was a Rabbi Boteach, I think his name was, and he spoke the truth in saying that religion, which should have as its mission education and unification is too often used to accomplish the opposite.

I found the very idea of this forum particularly distasteful and reprehensible and yet another disgusting example of religion’s hijacking the American political process.  This has to be stopped, somehow. 

Could Obama have said, “I am a religious/spiritual person.  I believe religion to be a personal matter.  As POTUS, I will be honored to work to protect each person’s right to practice his personal religion while, at the same time, work to uphold our constitution which mandates a separation between our churches and our government.  It is very important to me that every citizen in this country recognizes its cultural diversity.  That’s what we’re about.  All of us have to work together to ensure that the equality and freedom promised, without qualification by our constitution, becomes and remains a reality.  I respectfully decline to participate in RRR’s forum.”

This all sounded something like what might go on in a confessional booth.

One last thing:  McCain cannot and will not address the issues.  However, Obama, who has the intellect to do so, and his campaign can’t seem to direct or guide the dialogue.  This failure might say something about his ability to lead the nation. I have to think that even rank and file religious nut cases would like to hear about the issues and tire, somewhat, of RR’s minipulation and disregard for the really important issues.  Even they can’t pull up to the pump or stand at the check-out in a grocery store and say “I have no money but Jesus sent me and he said it’s better to give than to receive.”

It isn’t wrong for politicians to talk to people gathered because they share religious affiliations. It is wrong that those people aren’t instructed that democracy is incompatible with their belief that God’s will on political and social issues is directly available through their religion.

Democracy is premised on the idea that by open competition in the marketplace of ideas two things will emerge: the best policy choices and consensus.

Belief that one can read God’s mind—either by listening to some religious official or by interpreting religious texts, makes democracy irrelevant.  If God’s will is known, compromise with apostates is sin.

The hardening of political attitudes into two electoral camps in America is in large part a result of one camp turning every secular political and cultural issue into a test of “our faithfulness to God” and abandoning the ethics of consensus building in favor of capturing the power of the state to serve their religious views.

Like fundamentalist elsewhere, Christian fundamentalist seek to impose a Sharia on our society—basing our laws on their interpretation of God’s will and using the coercive power of the state to compel the rest of us to comply with those interpretations.

Preachers used to be shepherds of souls, now they are mere ward bosses trading votes for imposition of religious tyranny—piece by piece.

Freedom of conscience was meant by our founders to take politics out of religion and religion out of politics.  To the founders, the lessons of the wars of religion throughout history were clear: mixing religion and politics is like mixing salt and water—you always end up loosing the first and ruining the other.

I watched most of Obama’s interview, but could only handle about 10 mins of Macs…As soon as Off shore drilling came out of his mouth, i knew he was going to use this forum to spew his pat answers to everything.MAC THE OIL CORPS WILL STILL OWN THE OIL!!
THAT IS NOT ENERGY INDEPENDENCE!
Hasn’t the religious right had enough smoke blown up thir asses. haven’t they figured out the Neo Cons (corporationist)have been shamelessly using and deceiving them yet?
Now they are trying to twist the break away regions of Georgia as ‘liberating them’ when they have been fighting to gain their liberation by affiliating with Russia. Who are they liberating when those involved are rooting for the other side?Where did these people seek refuge..In Russia. they are trying to be Free From Georgia.
The only reason this admin & Mac are spewing these lies are to keep control of pipelines- they don’t give a shit about freedom, choice or people- JUST OIL!
It’s time we call the ‘Evangelicals’ what they are- Traitors, to the country, Humanity & God.Arrogant, self anointed,delusional and dangerous.No difference between Hagee’s Followers and Bin ladens.

The scarey thing is that there doesn’t seem to be any outrage from the media - AT ALL - that a secular nation is now running Christian Forums with the top to contenders for President.  Where is Christopher Hitches or Bill Maher when you need them?

I get it Mr. McCain, be saved and yea will have no Karma.

So what you do will be forgiven even if you do wrong. I guess that makes it easy to make a mistake.

And I wondered how, America in 2008 could continue to be held hostige by right wing Christianity, and how fundamentalists both Christian and Moslem could have so much power to determine the political agenda of our world. Scary.

Didn’t we learn our lesson with Bush?

Apparently some lessons are very hard to learn, we don’t learn them, or we forget about them when we’re not in the mood.

Wasn’t America founded with the idea of seperation of Church and state, because of all the Religous wars, and persecution that happened some where else.

Maybe, because we believe that because they happened somewhere else, that it’s can’t happen here, but what about Persecution of gays, and the establishment of Christian Fundamentalism in our courts and laws.

And isn’t that why, both candidates when to this church, as a part of both of their respective political stategies?

And maybe this is because, bottom line, there is no Christ in Christianity, only politics.

evangelical-imperialistic?

“McCain said he would have never nominated Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens.” Scares the crap out of me, and I have always voted the court, in every single election of my adult life, before this election.

But, you know, I just can’t bring myself to vote for a man (Obama) who thinks there are other things more important than counting votes. If his view of democracy permits him to dispense with some peoples’ votes, what can we believe he REALLY BELIEVES IN. Won’t political expedience trump all for him?

Isn’t having “progressive” leaders who lead by holding their wet index finger up to determine which way the wind blows much of what’s gotten us into this mess.

What’d Dr. King say: judge people by the their characters?

Now cyrena, I’m going to push your buttons and mention that you’ve posted elsewhere on this site that Iran’s theocracy is just as democratic as our admittedly sick democracy. That manifestation of ideological blindness will render you incapable of seeing the point I’m making above, so better just to save all the verbiage and ignore my post.

This says it all as far as I’m concerned, and in just this short reply.

...“When asked what faith in Jesus means to him, McCain replied, “Means I’m saved and forgiven. Our faith encompasses not just America but the world.”

~~~
His response combines the evangelical-imperialistic (and clearly simplistic) view of themselves and of course the rest of the world…

I’m ‘saved’ and ‘forgiven’. (by Jesus Christ) so I can just do any damn thing I please, to anybody, and it’s fine. AND, just to make sure you understand this, it applies NOT just with him, or even just in America, but ALL OVER THE WORLD!!  So it doesn’t matter if other people of the world don’t buy this, or never even heard of Jesus Christ, because John McCain and his ilk think it’s fine to bomb, genocide, or otherwise destroy humanity and civilization via aggressive military force, because HE’S already been ‘saved’ and given a blanket ‘forgiveness’.

But, that might not even be the scariest part, and this is what American’s need to comprehend, and fast.

•  “Neither candidate shied away from a question about which current Supreme Court justice they would not have nominated….McCain said he would have never nominated Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Stephen Breyer, David Souter and John Paul Stevens….The Arizona senator said he was “proud” of President Bush for nominating conservative Justices Samuel Alito and John Roberts to the court.”

If that doesn’t scare the shit out of any and every even semi-politically conscious American, then we might as well start practicing for life in the concentration camps, or making preparations to escape if this guy gets elected or otherwise appointed like the Coup of 2000, which Clarence Thomas was certainly intentionally well placed to make happen.

Thank the Forces Obama was loud and clear on his opinion of THAT monster. (of course I would have added some stuff, but that’s because I’d never be elected president anyway).

As far as the other religious stuff is concerned, I still wish we could have an atheist or an agnostic president. I just don’t like this mixing God into politics and legislation.