Ha, that’s funny fadel.  First off, wrong on the gender, i am an XY’er. 

Second, i don’t think the burden is on me to prove that your magical book isn’t real, i think if you are putting it forth as true than you have to show that it is so.  A good start might be at least getting the koran to line up with cosmology, since it can’t even get the sun setting correct.

As for the issue of women being forced to wear sheets in public, lets limit this to one issue.

Do you agree with the sentiment of the ad?  And do you think that it is right for governments like those in sudi arabia to limit womens rights?

Simple question.

By niloroth, July 12 at 9:18 am #

“And just as women now are freer than they were 100 years ago, the women forced through culture and violence to cover themselves because of a fairy tale, they will also be freer when that culture liberalizes.”

“True, but i find the correlation between freedom of women to be full citizens strangely lining up with things like forced dress codes, being able to drive, and being able to vote.”
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Well, I expected some bigot or ignorant narrow-minded person to come through! In she (he) came under the name niloroth! Most likely a she because it sounds so!

What kind of scientific proof do you have that religions are “fairy tales”?!

And what kind of proof, again, do you have that Muslim women who wear the Hijab are forced to do it?!

And who told you that all Muslim women do not drive?

And who told you that dress codes are always bad, when, in fact, they are enforced right her in the United States in all areas of work.(please read cyrena’s comments below!) Few weeks ago, I visited a Macy store in Chicago and noticed that all the workers there were dressed in black uniform, so I said jokingly to the lady who served me, “Are you mourning the death of your company’s president, or are you mourning the death of the economy as reflected in the very few costumers around?”

Furthermore, who told you that cultures “liberalizes” by force and by showing disrespect from bigot, ignorants, and narrow-minded people?!

Another interesting real story about the practical utility of covering the hair while doing certain jobs for pure hygiene. Not a long time ago I dined in a fancy restaurant, and when my food was served I found a long piece of hair in it. When I brought this to the attention of the manager, you cannot imagine the embarrassment he felt and the apologies he made! Had the cook or the waitress had their hair covered, this would not have happened.

And finally, may I invite you to come to Johns Hopkins University, where I teach, and observe that the smartest and most outstanding students are Muslim young ladies studying medicine, engineering and sciences dressed in their modest dress, which they have the choice, as other Muslim girls do, to shed off as much clothes as they want, because they’re far away from the watching eyes of fathers or brothers. They wear their Islamic symbols out of conviction and because they are proud of it.

Since your information about Islam and Muslims come from the evil book of anti-Muslim propagandists, my fatherly advice for you, niloroth, to get some real education and to liberate yourself from the narrow confines of your culture and look at the world around you with more open-mindedness!

” Those who might be tempted to do that are warned to remember that in Christianity and Judaism modesty in dress is still observed among the religiously conscious Christians and Jews (Catholic nuns, Mormons, Orthodox Jews.) Even in the USA and Europe, women wore clothes that covered all their bodies and hair. All you need to do is observe any movie depicting life a hundred tears ago or before.”

And just as women now are freer than they were 100 years ago, the women forced through culture and violence to cover themselves because of a fairy tale, they will also be freer when that culture liberalizes.

“The matter is that women in different societies, cultures and traditions shed off their clothes at different pace.”

True, but i find the correlation between freedom of women to be full citizens strangely lining up with things like forced dress codes, being able to drive, and being able to vote.

Fadel,

I don’t think Outraged was being sarcastic, just based on many posts that have been exchanged over time. But as Americans, I did have share the giggle about the men being depicted as flies. (I’m sorry, it’s just sort of funny here, and to be honest, frequently has a ring of truth to it.) And, the lollipop thing can also be legitimately connected to at least SOME American women. (and that has a tendency to get old as well.)

BUT, I’m relatively positive that she was speaking to the American culture.

That said, and ONLY because I’ve spent as much time as I have studying Islam and the culture, with some further introspection on Women in the Middle East, I have a different concept of what the veil means, (which relates to your own explanation) and in that sense, I’m not sure that it ‘entirely’ correlates with what American’s have meant be the ‘keep your legs crossed’ advice. I think that would be the relevant assumption here, so I think that Outraged point is well made.

But, the veil means (as far as I’ve studied) a great deal more even, than this sign of purity, to the woman HERSELF. It’s a concept hard for me to describe as an American, to another American, but I’m sure you understand it perfectly. It is a personal privacy issue as well, I believe. A way of maintaining some ideological sense of self/privacy in a culture that, for the most part, doesn’t really allow for (at least not to any large extent) women to live alone, or be alone in most circumstances. If they are unmarried, they generally share their home with relatives, and are with other women or relatives in school, or within the social settings. So the veil also affords some of them a sense of their own privacy, even if it is a psychological one.

Now, that’s just my own take. I read a wonderful book, “Snow”, and I can’t remember the author’s name right now, though I could certainly look it up. And it touched very closely to this theme.

Then of course there’s been the huge controversy in France over the head scarf. I don’t understand this, and I don’t approve. I don’t understand at all, why there is such an issue with women wearing their scarves in public places in France or anywhere else. And, there’s been the same issue of course in Turkey. (The landscape of “Snow” is Turkey). The dilemma of the head scarf being disallowed in some western countries is of course one of those topics that my own field of study would encapsulate. And, oddly enough, in a course on Law and Culture, we had a very similar ‘case’ come up right here, involving my former employer.

Part 2 of 2

At the time that I was employed, all of the rank and file wore uniforms. The ‘rules’ were very strict, (and repressive in my opinion – authoritarian). Supposedly no religious symbol jewelry could be worn, but later that seemed to be accepted for crucifixes, and the Star of David. I don’t remember seeing any other, although I did where my name in Chinese on a necklace, and nobody ever hassled me about that. But other pins or badges identifying work group/union associations were not allowed by non-union employees, nor were any badges or pins that were supportive of union employees. No lapel pins or other decorations. Earrings could only be a certain length and/or width, and skirt lengths for the female employees were checked. (I’m not kidding, I felt like I’d gone right from the same Catholic school ‘regulations’ to this very structured thing on the job. Like..as an ADULT..working for a living.!!) For the most part, I was OK with it, because that’s just the way it was, and it didn’t prevent me from wearing or dressing as I would anyway. (except for the neckties/scarves that the females had to wear. I hated those. Had to wear them in high school as well).

Needless to say, something like a head scarf that a Muslim woman would wear, would NEVER have been accepted. Now how discriminatory is that? (but we HAD to wear that stupid scarf around our necks) At the same time, female employees were also not allowed to wear their hair in braids. I never gave it much thought, because I didn’t wear my hair in braids. But, there were a handful that did, if only one braid, and that never seemed to provoke any ‘citations” or other ‘black marks’ on ones employee record.

That is until a black female flight attendant was fired for wearing her hair in braids…beautifully done braids. (I mean, we’re not talking exotic, or tacky, but very, very classy). So, I said all of that to say that while there were other female employees that DID wear there hair in one or two braids, THEY happened to be white, and so it was never an issue. However, for the black employee, who actually did take the case to court, it was still ‘disallowed’ and she lost the case, as well as her job of course. I wasn’t surprised, because that is the history of that corporation. The same thing had occurred some years before, when the management didn’t like the color that a black employee had died her hair, and sent her home, telling her not to come back until she had ‘toned it down’. The reason we dealt with the case in my academic work, was because for the flight attendant with the braids, it was she said, simply her culture to wear her hair that way. Of course they didn’t care or respect that.

That’s why I was astounded when I passed through the airport myself about 5 years ago, and discovered a Muslim agent wearing a hijjab with her standard uniform! Apparently things had changed, and I would say for the better. I don’t know if the previous case against the company had anything to do with that, but indeed it was a welcome change.

So, I said all of that to say that culture is very important, and maybe…as things improve, and in terms of comparative law and pluralism, they will continue to. I also questioned the other traditional dress of female Muslims, and was surprised to learn from an Iranian colleague, that her mother always wore the full Burka, though not because she was in any way religious. (hard to believe for me, that any Iranian would be –in her words- NOT AT ALL religious.) The younger women of course don’t necessarily were the burka, but they do still have some requirements, along with the female ‘dress police’ ladies. My friend says those ladies can be really mean! Sounds like some of my old grammar school and high school nuns.

Talk about pork and the pigs running to the trough,  one could say politicians are screwing all of us, so maybe we should cross our legs.

Though the metaphor of the ad is somehow relevant, it’s a very naive way to explain a complex religious mandate.

I hope bigots would not find this an opportunity to attack Islam and start denigrating Muslim women and Islamic culture in general, which is a favorite stereotype with the enemies of Islam.

Those who might be tempted to do that are warned to remember that in Christianity and Judaism modesty in dress is still observed among the religiously conscious Christians and Jews (Catholic nuns, Mormons, Orthodox Jews.) Even in the USA and Europe, women wore clothes that covered all their bodies and hair. All you need to do is observe any movie depicting life a hundred tears ago or before.

The matter is that women in different societies, cultures and traditions shed off their clothes at different pace.

If Outraged, in his first post on this thread, is not being sarcastic, I think he made a good point about the universality of certain cultural things!

LOL…this is great.  Hey..c’mon now, ya gotta admit SOME men are just like flies and SOME women are just “lollipops”.

I believe the term in America is “eye candy” are we really SOOOO different?  Of course here men are pigs, not flies.

Is “wrap yourself up” so different from “keep your legs crossed”..? (I can qualify that this is common terminology where I live)

But this bizarre preoccupation with virgins, this too is universal…isn’t it?

A sad state of affairs for some.  And then there’s the rest of us.