Manni:

“As Cyrena warned me some time ago, where niloroth is concerned (and particularly re 9/11), save your breath: he will debate you with his “official story” belief until he simply wears you down with his uber-denial-based mindset.”

LOL.

The funny thing is my last post wasn’t as much about your lies about 9/11, but about the fact that you can’t even keep one story straight.  Even for a truther you are very very bad at that whole reality thing.  Seriously, at least cyrena is smart enough to never actually bring any facts into the conversation, so he can never be proved wrong.  Although we all know cyrena is a paid for lacky for the CFR and trilateral commission with her blind support of obama.

maani:  I can see that Cognitive dissonance.  Ah well, he just can’t handle the truth.

Tony:  Why do you think he will listen to you when he becomes president?  The dems won in 06. They have the majority.  Weren’t we all thrilled thinking.. yea! impeachment ! accountability ! oversight !  What did we get?  Impeachment off the table, no hearings with teeth and certainly NO oversight. 

Wake up.  The dems,for the most part, including your beloved obama are complicit in the fascist takeover.  Why?  I dunno.  Blackmail? Power? Greed?  I believe the last two words apply, not the first.  Which is why I have absolutely no faith in the democrats to get us out of this mess.  They haven’t even flippin’ tried (except for a few of the “good” ones) so far, so what makes you think that will change in 08?

Jersey, girl,

We will see how progressive Obama is by what he does after he is elected, not by what he says before he is elected. A lot will depend on whether he has a filibuster-proof majority to work with. Much also depends on what he hears from his supporters. If Activity by progressive supporters within his campaign, will make him more progressive. Attacks and smears by progressives, calling him names like “traitor”, “liar”, etc. instead of supporting him, drives him to the right and help the forces of reaction.

Jersey Girl:

As Cyrena warned me some time ago, where niloroth is concerned (and particularly re 9/11), save your breath: he will debate you with his “official story” belief until he simply wears you down with his uber-denial-based mindset.  NOTHING you say will change his position even one iota, and you will simply be wasting energy tpying your post.  I still reply to him mostly to see how many more epithets he can hurl at me...LOL.

Peace.

Tony Wicher:  You are NOT a progressive if you think it’s ok to use doublespeak to get elected. To deny your base to kowtow to the right wing crowd is despicable.  I for one, don’t think he’s just doing it to get elected.  His advisers are corporatists, hawks and imperialists. His support of the FISA compromise makes me ill. What the hell kind of constitutional attorney would approve of such a bill? It seems he has republican envy. He has stated his admiration for Reagan and has repeated over and over again he wants to “reach across the aisle” to the repigs.  He has even said he’d consider a republican as vp. As a true progressive, who has suffered through 8 years of right wing abuse, I want no such thing.  I want someone who will tell the republicans to sit the hell down and shut up !  Not some mamby pamby little pandering appeaser.  If you think he will change when elected, you have another think coming.  Once in office, he will be even more beholden to the corporate gods who pull his strings.

Obama is no progressive.  As for the supreme court. I don’t think he will appoint a left leaning moderate as most of you do.  And if he does, you and I know the republicans will not vote that person in.  So that point, to me, is a non issue.

niloroth:  if you believe the official fairytale of 9/11 you are either very naive or very stupid.  Bldg 7 came fell down into it’s own footprint at nearly free fall speed just as the twin towers did. There were only small fires within the bldg and maybe you didn’t know this but a plane didn’t even hit it !! Larry Silverstein is on tape saying he told them to “pull it”.  What does pull it mean to you?  It’s a demolition term for taking down a building.  News reporters, policeman & fireman and people on the street all reported hearing explosions before it came down. 

As for the pentagon tapes, point me to the one that shows a plane hitting the building, please.  Show me the wreckage of a huge airliner on the lawn.  Explain to me how the most protected building in the universe could be hit over an hour after the towers were?  While you’re at it, explain to me how the president of the u.s. could sit in a child’s classroom reading my pet goat after andy card whispered in his ear the country is under attack.  WHy didnt’ the secret service shuttle him out of that building immediatelY???

Good god, there are thousands of unanswered questions including the money trail and the put options that only a person who is unable to think critically or is afraid to know the truth wouldn’t figure out in short order that it was certainly an inside job .

re Bobadi, July 7 at 6:51 pm #

Very thoughtful link. That’s exactly the way I see it. I consider myself highly progressive, far out in front of the American people on most issues. So, naturally I do not expect my views to be majority views. I’m way on the left end of the bell curve. The best that we leftists can do is to be part of a coalition for change, and as part of it we can try to steer it more in the direction we want. I accept Obama as the leader of the whole coalition, and I understand that he must compromise as best he can with people of many different viewpoints, especially at election time.

Have any of you heard of Marc Coopers take on this thread? I think he has it right:

http://www.laweekly.com/news/dissonance/dissonance-oba mas-middle-ground/19203/

Rey Mary Ann McNeely, July 7 at 1:53 pm #

Obama is running for the presidency, not the board of supervisors.  The ambition to be President of the United States, in and of itself, and to garner enough votes from the celebrity addled American public, is conclusive proof that Obama has no intention of ever getting out of Iraq, lock, stock and whiskey barrel.”
---------------------------------------------------
That remains to be seen. Obama isn’t president yet. I have backed him since he started running because I could see he was a highly skilled politician and I hoped he had some integrity. I am at least going to wait until he has had a chance to be president for a while and can see what he actually does, instead of rushing to judgment even before the election. You seem to be saying that the mere fact that somebody runs for President already “conclusively proves” that he has no integrity and cares only for fame and power. Well, what about Kucinich, then? What about Gravel? They ran, didn’t they? No, Obama is right saying that such an attitude represents the cynicism and apathy that prevents movements for change from happening. Such cynicism, of course, furthers the true Republican agenda of vitiating the democratic process, leaving wealth (capital) as the only organized power.

Sue Cook,

Yes, experience, such as we have now? Vietnam evader war monger, don’t you love it?

Are you touting McCAin?  He does not flip flop?  How about your option if not McCain?

Re: Sue Cook

Obama was NEVER “left” (whatever that “technically” means).  But now that he’s endorsing a full Clintonian foreign policy group he’s chosen a more vicious and corrupt path, just like ol’ Bill and Hillary.  While a select few of these advisors might be “centerish” the rest are hawks and that is dangerous for us as well as the world.

Since Reagan the “center” has decidedly moved RIGHT, so much so that many people who consider themselves Republican, thought Clinton was a hawk and endorsed Obama.  However, Obama’s latest stance on several issues will drive even these Republicans away...but they will not vote for McCain.

McCain did a very significant thing when challenging Obama with a trip to Iraq.
How very clever of him.
At first Obama backed down, but realized his error in doing so. He knows that conditions there are improving, so he can’t just argue to the contrary and look credible.
We’ll soon see how much more he will flip-flop and try to justify is ever-changing rhetoric (pandering) on the subject because he likes having it both ways.
He’s left, he’s center. I don’t know one issue he has stayed true to since entering politics.

Experience not experiment for president!
NoBama!

Manni:

Your delusions just don’t stop do they?

You originally said:
“It should also be noted that, just weeks after this report, the BBC claimed that all of its live studio tapes recorded on 9/11 had “gone missing.” [Thank God that YouTube has the original video.] Sounds to me like whatever report they are about to give is going to be a doctored version of those live tapes.”

Which, to those of us with better than 3rd grade reading comprehension, if very different from:

“Yup, they claim to have found it OVER SIX YEARS AFTER THE FACT: as late as February 2007, BBC World News editor Richard Porter was still asking people for help finding the footage.”

But, just in case anyone thinks this is a unique incident, lets look at what else you say.  As an example:

“Actually, you are incorrect again.  The FBI released PORTIONS of the videos from THREE of FIVE sources”

Is fully different from what you said (and i was pointing out as an example of your ignorance on the events surrounding 9/11) in This post.

“As well, the FBI continues to refuse to release at least half a dozen videotapes of the Pentagon “crash,” and only released a single graint (sic) on-site c/c video which does NOTHING to support their case.”

See, in both of these cases, you are backtracking on the original meaning in a sad attempt to not look like either ignorant, or wrong.  As well, notice the fact that in the 2 posts, there is no logical way to make the math on the actual number of tapes the government has supposedly not released add up, so i guess you are not a mathematician either.  Sad, very sad.

Could you please clarify in the future?  I myself never say anything i don’t mean and can’t back up, you should try it some time, but then i guess you would have to give up your fairy tales in place of reality.  And don’t you ever get tired of me proving you wrong?  And with your own words even.

Anyway, continuing on, i am glad you decided not to challenge me on the whole 9/11 ballot thing, since i guess even the true believes like you have realized it is never going to get off the ground.

And as for the rest, I guess you could try to get yourself off the hook again by trying something like this:

“As noted, it does NOT come as news to me; I simply do not believe their claim, so I do not repeat it.”

But please note that that is a non sequitur, since the claim you made was not your trust in the tapes, it was your assertion that they were never found. 

And, as an aside, you should probably know that there were actually multiple news feeds that either said that WTC7 had or was going to collapse before 17:20 on 9/11.  The BBC was just the most well known one.  The reason for this probably had to do with the fact that everyone was in fact being TOLD that WTC7 was going to collapse, since it was known to the fire department, the police, and most importantly, to the local media outlets.  I would suggest you actually do some REAL READING on the events of that day, but we all know you like to remain as ignorant as you are able about 9/11.

I am almost getting tired of being the one who teaches you about these things.

Just answer me one question.  Do you ever look in a mirror and think, “i really need to stop lying about 9/11”?  Or are you just as buffered from reality as GWB is?

Outraged,

The Realnews videos seem fairly objective to me. One one hand if you say is going to be another Clinton, I admit that’s pretty disappointing to me - after all, I backed Obama against Clinton because I hoped he would be better. On the other hand, if that’s the worst you can say about Obama, then I would like to point out that Clinton is really a lot better than Bush. Clinton is a corporate Democrat. Bush is an out-and-out fascist. Clinton, the video says, “is no pacifist”. Sure, but compared to an out-and-out warmonger like Bush, he looks pretty peaceful.

Outraged,
Thanks for that link.  This is the worst fraud in American politics since Nixon said he had a secret plan to end the war in Vietnam.

niloroth:

I would add that BBC world News Editor Richard Porter CONTINUES to be evasive about the reporting done that day re WTC7.  Here are his words:

“Our reporter Jane Standley was in New York on the day of the attacks, and like everyone who was there, has the events seared on her mind. I’ve spoken to her today and unsurprisingly, she doesn’t remember minute-by-minute what she said or did - like everybody else that day she was trying to make sense of what she was seeing; what she was being told; and what was being told to her by colleagues in London who were monitoring feeds and wires services.”

VERY weak.  But then he adds further evasion:

“If we reported the building had collapsed before it had done so, it would have been an error - no more than that.”

Excuse me?! The #1 media outlet in all of Europe - and one of the top media outlets in the world - calls this an “error - no more than that?” An “error” that they announced - with complete conviction and certainty, including DETAILS - the collapse of a building that remained standing for another 25 minutes?!!  And NO OTHER MEDIA OUTLET IN THE WORLD - whether large ones that were also on-site or tiny ones that were less “plugged in” to the events - made that error?

Please.  That stretches credulity WAY past the breaking point.

Peace.

niloroth:

“It should also be noted that the BBC did in fact find the original footage, and has made it publicly available.”

Yup, they claim to have found it OVER SIX YEARS AFTER THE FACT: as late as February 2007, BBC World News editor Richard Porter was still asking people for help finding the footage.  But this claim is no more believable than the original claim that they lost the tapes of the most important footage that the BBC has ever shot!  The bottom line is, it is impossible to know WHAT to believe re the BBC.  Nice try.

“It should also be noted that this should not come as news to you, since you have ‘spent years researching 9/11.’”

As noted, it does NOT come as news to me; I simply do not believe their claim, so I do not repeat it.

“It should also be noted that you also had no idea that all the videos from the pentagon attack had been released for over a year when you said they had never been released.”

Actually, you are incorrect again.  The FBI released PORTIONS of the videos from THREE of FIVE sources - and the portions they DID release do NOTHING to support their claim of a 757 hitting the Pentagon. In fact, if anything, they support the movement’s claim that something is fishy about that whole affair.

“It should also be noted that you are either 1) fully ignorant about 9/11, and lying about your research into it, or 2) you know these things, but willingly lie about them.”

Nope.  See above.

“It should also be noted that either way, you are an idiot, and displaying about the level of understanding about the events of 9/11 that i have come to expect from the 9/11 deniers.”

Sorry you feel that way.  Rather than return the epithet, I will simply say that YOUR understanding of the events of 9/11 is exactly what I have come to expect from those who still believe the hopelessly insupportable “official story.”

Peace.

Obama has chosen a foreign policy team made up of some STRANGE bedfellows if one is TRULY thinking of getting out of Iraq.

!Madeline Albright..!!! Now that’s a scary woman, vicious and wicked, remember… killing a half million Iraqi children, WAS WORTH IT TO HER...! Were these people hatched....the cold-blooded freaks...I swear Truman Capote couldn’t top the likes of what these people conjure up before breakfast.  Imagine the machinations that go through the heads of people like Albright, (and she’s certainly not the only one), by the time dinner rolls around.

Desk murders...just like Eichmann.  I’ll write my own name in before I’d vote for someone with the likes of these people “on his team”.  I don’t really have a death wish for myself...nor for the world.

Check out these videos from “The Real News”

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content& task=view&id=33&Itemid=74&jumival=165

Manni:

“It should also be noted that, just weeks after this report, the BBC claimed that all of its live studio tapes recorded on 9/11 had “gone missing.” [Thank God that YouTube has the original video.] Sounds to me like whatever report they are about to give is going to be a doctored version of those live tapes.”

It should also be noted that the BBC did in fact find the original footage, and has made it publicly available. 

It should also be noted that this should not come as news to you, since you have “spent years researching 9/11”.

It should also be noted that you also had no idea that all the videos from the pentagon attack had been released for over a year when you said they had never been released. 

It should also be noted that you are either 1) fully ignorant about 9/11, and lying about your research into it, or 2) you know these things, but willingly lie about them.

It should also be noted that either way, you are an idiot, and displaying about the level of understanding about the events of 9/11 that i have come to expect from the 9/11 deniers. 

I will not await you blathering on about some completely different issues about 9/11 since like most 9/11 deniers, you are bad as responding in debates, but good at moving goalposts.

Oh yeah, and about the ballot initiative, aside from the fracturing of the ny truth legions, which is great, i am wondering how you figure even with 18 months they will get enough sigs?  They need 30,000 verified sigs, and have only 10,000 so far.  Even if they should be able to pull off another 20,000 if even one is found unqualified, it will invalidate the initiative.  So they need more than that really.  And the original target was for 100,000 by july 30th.  Well, that one will fail.  And then they moved the target to september, but still have yet to pass much over 10,000.  So now that they have already signed up all the 9/11 deniers, and those they can harass in the streets, where are the other 20,000 going to come from?  Especially since there is no money and few volunteers to work on the streets?

9/11 truth is moving to the ‘no planer’ fringe, and that is where they will lose the public.  The truth movement failed, and is fading.  Mostly because most of it’s supporters are uninformed and ignorant, much like yourself.

Fadel:

I am not finding any listing for that program on the BBC channels that we get in the U.S.  Perhaps it is only being shown in the UK.  Please advise if you have any additional info.

As well, the BBC is HIGHLY suspect PARTICULARLY on the issue of WTC7, since THEY were the ones who “jumped the gun” and reported the collapse of WTC7 almost HALF AN HOUR before it actually collapsed.  In fact, the BBC reporter in NYC was standing at a window behind which the smoke from the collapses of the twin towers was visible.  And as she was reporting the collapse of WTC7, that building - completely intact and uncollapsed - was visible behind her.

It should also be noted that, just weeks after this report, the BBC claimed that all of its live studio tapes recorded on 9/11 had “gone missing.” [Thank God that YouTube has the original video.] Sounds to me like whatever report they are about to give is going to be a doctored version of those live tapes.

Here is the original report.  When the NYC reporter comes on, look over her left shoulder (right side of the screen), and you will see WTC7 standing tall as she reports that it has collapsed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7SwOT29gbc

Peace.

I have greatly enjoyed reading the Maani-Louise debate. At the end I had the sneaky suspicion that BOTH are really Cyrena debating herself whether she is a Democrat or a Republican.
Unfortunately the debate was so short of new facts pertaining to the presidential race that I learned almost nothing. Here are some new facts. All are from the mouth of Richard Danzig a former navy secretary who advises Senator Obama on national security.

“It’s hard to see how we [meaning an Obama administration] could spend less on the military in the near term. Cuts would be hard to make due to the costs of Senator Obama’s plan to withdraw troops from Iraq and of repairing and replacing equipment from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.”

In other words: expect Obama’s first DoD budget request plus his Iraq/Afghanistan “supplementals” to be close to one trillion dollars. Danzig also glibly forgets to tell us that Obama wants to expand the army with 65,000 new soldiers which, of course, is old news but will require increased funding.

“Senator Obama has also said he wants to send at least two more combat brigades - the equivalent of between 6,000 and 10,000 soldiers - to Afghanistan, where violence has climbed as the Taliban and al-Qaeda regrouped.”
“Mr Danzig said he could not say precisely when more troops would go to Afghanistan under Senator Obama but stated: “I don’t see it as very far off; I think it’s a priority.”

Have they ever considered the possibility that the renewed growth of Taliban is due to the presence of too many and not to too few foreign soldiers in Afghanistan? This smells like President Johnson and Vietnam: escalate, escalate, and then escalate some more. Obama has once stated that he is not against all wars, he is only against “dumb” wars. Obviously he considers the “war” in Afghanistan a clever (intelligent?) war. In reality it is just as dumb as the occupation/war in Iraq. And the summit of dumbness will be the bombing of Iran which Obama does not oppose.

“Mr Danzig said Senator Obama supported current efforts to build a missile defense system to protect the United States and its allies from attack by rogue nations.”
“But he said the program would be subject to more careful scrutiny under Senator Obama.”

In other words: a president Obama will throw billions of additional but “well-scrutinized” dollars at the military-industrial complex for a project that most experts think is a total waste of taxpayers money because that “defense” can always be overridden by potential opponents.
It is now perfectly clear that a loss by Obama in November, should that happen, can no longer be blamed on Hillary and Bill Clinton but only on Obama and his advisers themselves. They are digging their “national security” foxhole deeper and deeper until they are out of sight completely.

Scott Ritter’s words on the youtube video, “the genie ain’t going back into the bottle” reminded me of this Frost poem.  The title is an allusion to the biblical flood and “summits stained” reminds us that in the mythological flood the waters reached the mountain tops.  We are well down the road to our own destruction.  Every move we make militarily only gets us there quicker.  The blood we are shedding is our own.  Neither Obama nor McCain understands this, and neither knows how to stop it.

The Flood
by Robert Frost

Blood has been harder to dam back than water.
Just when we think we have it impounded safe
Behind new barrier walls (and let it chafe!),
It breaks away in some new kind of slaughter,
We choose to say it is let loose by the devil;
But power of blood itself releases blood.
It goes by might of being such a flood
Held high at so unnatural a level.
It will have outlet, brave and not so brave.
Weapons of war and implements of peace
Are but the points at which it finds release.
And now it is once more the tidal wave
That when it has swept by leaves summits stained.
Oh, blood will out.  It cannot be contained.

since both Maani and Tony Wicher brought up the issue of 9 /11 on this thread, I would like to bring to your attention that on BBC Website, under most popular Video/Audio, they listed two items related to 9/11. One is entitled, “The Collapse of the Third Tower,” and the other one is entitled, “Third Tower Mystery Solved.”

They announce that “The Conspiracy Files:9/11-The Third Tower” will be broadcast on Sunday, July 6 @ 9:00 p.m.

There is also another link saying that, “BBC denies 9/11 Conspiracy.”

I am afraid that BBC has come under pressure to formally deny the 9/11 conspiracy since this news outlet is deemed credible by large numbers of people around the world. I don’t want to rush to comment till I see the program and related links. Let’s all watch the program on Sunday, July 6 and have a lively exchange after that!

Tony:

I am not, and have never been, a nasty person.  I am passionate - occasionally fervently - and admittedly sometimes a mite sarcastic (though I’m trying to work on that).  But I simply don’t do “nasty.” It is not in my bones.

Re 9/11, here you and I are on the same page.  As one who has been actively involved in the movement for over three years - and deeply immersed in studying 9/11 for over four years, including facts, theories, criticisms, articles, videos, etc. from BOTH sides of the issue - I am as certain that 9/11 was, as you put it, our “Reichstag fire” (a comparison that is made often within the movement).

It was the pretext for both the regime change in Iraq (for oil, as has now been made clear vis-a-vis the contracts for the Big Four oil companies), and the imposition of the neocon agenda, as pre-written in (i) PNAC’s document, “Rebuilding America’s Defenses,” which came out EXACTLY a year before 9/11 (September 2000), and which includes the realization (in words that should stun anyone who hasn’t seen them yet) that “the process of transformation” to the neocon agenda “is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor,” and (ii) the U.S.A. PATRIOT Act, which had been pre-written and was sitting on the shelf just waiting for 9/11, as proven by the fact that this 170-page behemoth appeared “full grown from the head of Zeus” when it was provided to Congress in October 2001.

Add to this the hopeless sham of the 9/11 Commission Report, which was replete with errors, omissions, distortions, etc., as well as almost all of the commissioners having serious conflicts of interest, including fiduciary and/or directorship responsibilities at Boeing (the maker of the planes), and American and United Airlines (the owners of the planes).  And then there is the Commission’s Executive Director - the person responsible for choosing which lines of inquiry to follow, which witnesses to depose, etc. - Philip Zelikow, a hard-core neocon who was a member of the Aspen Strategy Group (Cheney, Rice, Wolfowitz, Perle et al), a member of the Bush-Cheney transition team, and a close personal fried of Condi Rice.

All of this may be “circumstantial,” but cases have been won in court on far flimsier evidence than this.

Yup, 9/11 was about misdirection, smoke and mirrors, the unseen strings, shock and awe, and the deliberate traumatizing (for “control” purposes vis-a-vis the never-ending “war on terror") of not just a majority of Americans, but a large part of the rest of the world.

And, sadly, that traumatizing continues to affect most Americans, who simply do not have the psycho-emotional wherewithal to step back, look at the events of 9/11 with a dispassionate eye, and try to wrap their minds around the idea that their own government would engage in mass murder of its own citizens in the name of power, greed, money, oil, and control.

Peace.

By troublesum, July 5 at 2:43 pm #

Obama’s attitude is that we should leave the business of government to the elites.  We should vote for one of The Party candidates and then shut up.  Several weeks ago much was made of the fact that VP Cheney responded with “So” when reminded of the fact that a very clear majority of Americans oppose the war, think it was a mistake, and want the troops withdraw.  democrats in congress have the same attitude; it could have been any one of them speaking though they are usually more careful to disguise their opinions in the rhetoric of populist horse shit.  But they feel the same way.  What the public wants is of little concern to them.
-----------------------------------------------------
troublesum,

Yes, and everything Obama has said and done - everything - indicates that he agrees with the American people about that. We shall see what he actually does when he becomes president. Hopefully there will also be a filibuster-proof Democratic majority in Congress and with such a majority backed by a broadly based coalition of the people, I expect to see some fairly big changes in both foreign and domestic policy. If you are right and we wind up bombing Iran, etc. I will admit the error of my ways. We don’t have long to wait to find out.

This may have been linked to before on TD but it underscores the horrific consequences we face as a result of the democrats’ not standing up to Bush/Cheney a long time ago.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XQan1qo8T4

By Maani, July 5 at 2:23 pm #

niloroth:

“You could ask him what he is going to do after the ballot initiative fails.  The don’t even have 1/3 of the names needed yet right?  And they have what, 3 weeks left to do it?  This will go down as yet another failure of the floundering ‘truth’ movement.”

First, even if we fail to get all the required signatures, at least we tried.  As well, the signatures remain usable for another 18 months, so we would not have to get them all again if we have to try again next year.

As for “floundering,” you need to do your homework.  Setting aside that the number of people actively involved in the “movement” - both in the U.S. and, especially, globally - has increased fourfold over the past two years, every poll done in the past three years in the U.S. shows that the number of people who either (i) question the “official story” about the events of 9/11, or (ii) openly agree that that individuals and/or agencies of the U.S. were complicit in the planning and/or execution of the event has risen each year.  These polls include, but are not limited to, Zogby, CNN, CBS, Ohio State and others.  As well, the number of high-profile individuals - in every conceivable industry, including the military, intelligence, law enforcement, academia, entertainment, etc. - who have come out in open support of the movement has increased dramatically over the past two years.  So, no, the movement is not “floundering”; it is growing.  [N.B. For an extensive list of those who question the “official story,” go to: ]
-----------------------------------------------
Maani,

Strangely, I find myself agreeing with you here. I am one of those who believes 9/11 was an inside job. I believe those who say that all three WTC buildings collapsed due to intentional demolition as I believe my own eyes when I look at the pictures of it. I believe this was done intentionally as a pretext for war in the Middle East and the establishment of a military dictatorship in this country. It was our “Reichstag fire”. I cannot say that I “know” this, but I am willing to bet on it. I would like to know, but we can’t really know unless there is a real public investigation. Obviously, no “investigation” conducted under the auspices of the Bush administration can be considered valid. If Obama recognizes this and permits real government investigations into the crimes of the Bush administration to go forward, with an honest prosecutor, he will deserve credit for restoring American democracy. If not, well, I’ll be very disappointed that my efforts to get him elected have been wasted. What else can I say? Would Clinton, or McCain be better on this issue?

Maani, right now you seem like kind of a nasty person, but maybe I just don’t understand you. For the record, I am a political philosopher and I have been supporting Obama based on my political principles and my judgment about how best to move the country forward. Not only do I have no formal connection to the campaign, but email coming from my email address has been blocked by some groups at the Obama for America web site, most likely at the behest of Israel supporters who don’t like my One Democratic State stand on Israel. Nevertheless I support Obama because I believe that is the best thing for the country, at this time, under these concrete circumstances, when oil companies, defense contractors and fascists ride roughshod over us.

Bush’s approval rating is somewhere in the titanic neighborhood of 25%.  Given the Bush record of the past 7 1/2 years Obama should be at about 65% in the polls.  Gallup polls released Friday put Obama at 47% to 43% for McCain.  Democrats have nobody to blame but themselves.  This election is theirs to lose.

Obama’s attitude is that we should leave the business of government to the elites.  We should vote for one of The Party candidates and then shut up.  Several weeks ago much was made of the fact that VP Cheney responded with “So” when reminded of the fact that a very clear majority of Americans oppose the war, think it was a mistake, and want the troops withdraw.  democrats in congress have the same attitude; it could have been any one of them speaking though they are usually more careful to disguise their opinions in the rhetoric of populist horse shit.  But they feel the same way.  What the public wants is of little concern to them.

Tony Wicher,
No thank you.  I will not vote anymore for democrats.  They continue to fund the war, refuse to look at impeachment, voted to re-enact the patriot act, granted immunity to the phone companies, continue to vote for insane defense budgets, will not support universal single payer health care which they themselves enjoy, continue to support free trade agreements in spite of the costs to American workers, caved to Bush/Cheney demands that they not do a proper investigation of 9/11, will not agree to withdraw troops immediately from Iraq, continue to support the president’s plan to have permenant military bases there, voted to give the president a green light for military action against Iran, continue to give unequivical support to Israel, have done nothing to stop the Israeli seige of Gaza,.... on and on.  There is no credible reason to vote for them.  Save your breath.

niloroth:

“You could ask him what he is going to do after the ballot initiative fails.  The don’t even have 1/3 of the names needed yet right?  And they have what, 3 weeks left to do it?  This will go down as yet another failure of the floundering ‘truth’ movement.”

First, even if we fail to get all the required signatures, at least we tried.  As well, the signatures remain usable for another 18 months, so we would not have to get them all again if we have to try again next year.

As for “floundering,” you need to do your homework.  Setting aside that the number of people actively involved in the “movement” - both in the U.S. and, especially, globally - has increased fourfold over the past two years, every poll done in the past three years in the U.S. shows that the number of people who either (i) question the “official story” about the events of 9/11, or (ii) openly agree that that individuals and/or agencies of the U.S. were complicit in the planning and/or execution of the event has risen each year.  These polls include, but are not limited to, Zogby, CNN, CBS, Ohio State and others.  As well, the number of high-profile individuals - in every conceivable industry, including the military, intelligence, law enforcement, academia, entertainment, etc. - who have come out in open support of the movement has increased dramatically over the past two years.  So, no, the movement is not “floundering”; it is growing.  [N.B. For an extensive list of those who question the “official story,” go to: ]http://patriotsquestion911.com/.]

Tony:

“Something fishy about Maani. I can’t rationally understand this person’s motivations, but they feel bad.”

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.  However, given that you have been an Obama shill from day one - and have STILL refused to provide full disclosure and admit your direct connection to the campaign, and your blatant propagandizing on this and other websites - this is a textbook case of the pot calling the kettle black.

If you “feel bad” about my “motivations,” perhaps it’s because they conflict with your FORMAL role with the Obama campaign, and not because you really care all that much.

My “motivation” is, and has always been, the truth. And as the expression goes: “Sometimes the truth hurts.” But I will NOT engage in pandering, appeasement or other dishonest behavior simply because it is expedient.  Indeed, I vehemently reject the suggestion that expediency trumps honesty, no matter WHAT the outcome.

Peace.

Re Louise, July 4 at 6:01 pm #

A life-long democrat? Well then you above all should recognize the damage that you do to your party by focusing with apparent passion on every bit of back stabbing, petty and basically irrelevant trivia you seem to have committed to memory and proudly repeat almost verbatim, to anyone foolish enough to take you seriously.

A life-long democrat? With members like you, the party needs no detractors.
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Damn right! Something fishy about Maani. I can’t rationally understand this person’s motivations, but they feel bad.

By the way, Hillary understands politics enough to understand that though she lost the nomination her the way to achieve maximum political influence now is by being the most valuable possible member of the winning team. Apparently some of her supporters would like to go on living in bitter disillusionment.

Re troublesum, July 5 at 5:39 am #

“cyrena and Louise are the same person.  She wants to make it look like there is more than one Obama supporter here who hasn’t jumped ship.”
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troublesum,

All right, that’s it! I have been an Obama supporter since Feb 2007 and I’m still an Obama supporter! I’m not jumping ship because the captain of the only other one is John McCain. So if anyone is thinking of “jumping ship”, unless you’re planning to start saluting Admiral McCain, good luck swimming with the fishes!

Obama cannot give progressives everything they would like, especially in the heat of an election. With Obama we might get 20% of what we want. With McCain we get bupkiss. The choice is clear. Bitching about it is pointless. Obama is trying to put together a broad-based coalition for change. We are only part of it. Let’s get on board and pull, just as progressives did for the Roosevelt administration, even though they may have disagreed with many of his policies.

“As you may know, Senator Gravel is also actively supporting the NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative, which the group I belong to (NY911Truth) is the creator and sponsor of.  In that regard, I am going to meet with Senator Gravel this coming week.  Anything you want me to ask him?”

You could ask him what he is going to do after the ballot initiative fails.  The don’t even have 1/3 of the names needed yet right?  And they have what, 3 weeks left to do it?  This will go down as yet another failure of the floundering “truth” movement.

Maani,

Now Mike Gravel is supporting the Green Party, what is your take?

Tell Mike Gravel, some of us really applicate his comments about the special interest of Military Complex during the first so called debate. Noticed the looks from the other candidates, seemed almost shocked. My disappointment was they did not agree, but why would they, seems Kucinich would have agreed?

Gravel’s comments on real change, change from business as usual are heard by me, it is my hope by others also.

Change and Hope, real change and hope, interesting you and I seem to be on the same wave length for a change.

Gravel’s medical plan seemed lacking, but on most of his other issues he filled the gaps.  His sincerity will never be in question, for I know what he did during the Vietnam War.

Question, what can we do?

Louise:

I forgot to add the MAIN reason I will not support or campaign for Obama.  As I noted, had Obama run his primary campaign on the positions and policies he is CURRENTLY running on - i.e., having moved to the center, and continuing to do so - it is almost certain that Hillary would have won, since it was at least partially if not largely his position on Iraq (which he is ALSO now backtracking from) that separated him from Hillary.

In this regard, in a very real sense, he stole the primary election from Hillary by adopting positions that he has all-too-quickly been backtracking from.

He deserves neither my active support, nor my pity if he loses.

Peace.

Jersey Girl:

Thanks for your support.  The only matter on which we disagree is the SC.  I do think Obama would choose a much more left-center candidate than McCain, and this may be the only reason why I might vote for Obama in November.

Louise:

“You just keep on bad mouthing everything that comes out in this campaign, that you disagree with. The end result will be the same. Another vote or two, or a hundred or more, taken away from the democrat candidate, whoever that ultimately may be.”

Boy, are you giving me an awful lot of credit and power!  Didn’t know I had such power!  And the “end result” of my “bad mouthing” things I “disagree” with is called...honesty.  Something you apparently would not know if it bit you on the ear.

“We can always count on you’all to crawl out of the woodwork and start throwing gas on the fire whenever an article like this comes out...Way to go guys! Keep that “support” and “campaigning” coming.”

The question is: why should I support or campaign for someone who has shown himself to be a blatant liar.  And not JUST a liar, but someone who purported - over and over and over - to be something he was NOT (a “different” politician, someone who would NOT play “politics as usual,” someone who would NOT cave to special interests, etc.) and who now betrays his supporters almost weekly.  Sorry, Louise, but while I may or may not vote for him, I have ZERO interest in supporting ot campaigning for him.

Leefeller:

As you may know, Senator Gravel is also actively supporting the NYC 9/11 Ballot Initiative, which the group I belong to (NY911Truth) is the creator and sponsor of.  In that regard, I am going to meet with Senator Gravel this coming week.  Anything you want me to ask him?

Peace.

Has anyone else seen Mike Graves 2008 declaration of Independence?  He does a great job of telling it like it is without animosity.  Check it out at much of what he says makes perfect sense.  Or is it just me?

http://www.jwharrison.com/blog/2008/07/04/declaration- of-independence-2008/ Hopefully TD will pick it up.

Maani:
I was on the editorial board of a regional newspaper publisher, publishing newspapers covering four counties, a capital city, four county seats and a large resort center, for seven years. I left because I got sick and tired of covering murder trials. Nothing like the blood and guts of the real world. Not at all like TV.

Before that, I was on the editorial board of a monthly children’s publication for quite a few years.

You do not have to campaign for McCain. You do not have to campaign against Obama. You just keep on bad mouthing everything that comes out in this campaign, that you disagree with. The end result will be the same. Another vote or two, or a hundred or more, taken away from the democrat candidate, whoever that ultimately may be. And then you can “lament” over McCain’s victory. In fact, if you campaigned in the past the way you do now, it’s little wonder Reagan and Bush and Bush won, cause there are a lot of folks out there just like you.

We can always count on you’all to crawl out of the woodwork and start throwing gas on the fire whenever an article like this comes out. So terribly predictable. Way to go guys! Keep that “support” and “campaigning” coming.

troublesum:
I am not cyrena, wish I was that smart. But I am flattered by the comparison. Thanks.

By the way Maani, spending every waking moment attacking Obama, as opposed to elevating Clinton did Clinton no favors. That negative approach by so many of her alleged supporters contributed to her defeat. But for gosh sakes, whatever you do ... don’t learn anything from that experience!

cyrena and Louise are the same person.  She wants to make it look like there is more than one Obama supporter here who hasn’t jumped ship.

Maani:  Bravo !  You are really fighting the good fight. I never supported either Hillary or Obama. Neither one stood for what I do.  My dem nominee of choice was Kucinich. He’s the only one who ever intended to do the bidding of “we the people” and not the global elites.  But of course, “they” can’t allow that to happen.. No no no, we must have a fascist or fascist sympathizer in office to serve the warlords. 

I am voting for Nader or McKinney.  I’m not wasting another vote on the one party system. As was well stated, if we get McCain instead of Obama, there is no one to blame but Obama himself.

Obama and his whole “yes we can” and “change” campaign sounded phoney right from the get go to me… kinda like one of the old movie satires on political campaigns.  His supporters act and sound like cultists. I find it creepy, personally.  So here hes is lying again, backtracking on every issue and trying to sound like a republican.  Why don’t these obamabots get it?!  There will be NO CHANGE if obama is elected. Supreme court? ha !  Count on a right leaning moderate at the very best from Obama.  Gimme a break, people !

PS:  Is Louise Cyrena’s surrogate?

At this point Obama’s top priority is obviously to win in November. I am not paying too much attention to what he says at this point. It remains to be seen hat he will actually do in the Middle East, energy policy, medical care, budget priorities and constitutional law when he is president. November is not far away.

Louise:

You really are ignorant, aren’t you?  You say, “[T]he editorial very markedly called Obama ‘Mr.’ as apposed to calling McCain ‘Senator.’ That simple, subtle use of words tends to detract from Obama...”

No, they did not.  The proper “style” is to use the honorific ("Senator") the first time, and thereafter use Mr., Ms. or Mrs.  And the editorial refers to him as “Senator Barack Obama” at the very beginning.

And you were on an editorial board?  Of what?  A high school newspaper?

As for my politics, I voted for Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton, Gore and Kerry.  I worked actively against the elections of Reagan (twice).  I think these are adequate bona fides for my political views.

Yes, I supported Hillary over Obama, and was very vocal about it.  And yes, I criticized Obama very strongly.  What matters is, I WAS RIGHT ABOUT HIM. And THAT is why I supported Hillary over him; because despite their positions and policies being virtually identical on every major issue, at least Hillary di