i,Q.  Again, I agree, but since those of us who supported Obama (3rd choice for me--I supported Kucinich, then Edwards)got the candidate we wanted we can afford to be a little more magnanimous towards those who poured so much time and energy into Clinton’s losing campaign.

Whatever. i generally like your posts and find reading other peoples’ opinions interesting. If you don’t feel the same, no one is making you read my words.

i endorse Obama and understand we must bridge the supporter gap now that the primaries are over. But bridges have footings on both sides of the stream and unity will require both sides to listen and to be heard.

cyrena & i,Q:  It’s not that I disagree with the points you have made but I do think it’s time to dial it down and see what we can do to reach out to Clinton supporters, independents and those Republicans who feel betrayed by the Bush agenda.

Dangerous to whom JBlack? A ‘clueless idiot’ (like you) can never be ‘dangerous’ unless they have some sort of power. (like GW and your twin Clarence Thomas).

So, even if I WAS a clueless idiot, I wouldn’t be dangerous, because I don’t have or exert that kind of power.

YOU however, are proving to be quite a specimen/spectacle to observe from a scientific view. I don’t normally take any particular pleasure (intellectual or otherwise) in watching someone go through a meltdown. (I’m not the sadistic type). But in your case, it’s actually sort of ‘fulfilling’ to witness. And, since I’m sure that you cannot be of any danger to anyone other than yourself, (since you have no power yourself) I’ll just thank you for the opportunity to keep observing.

So, disregard my earlier recommendations. Keep writing. I may be able to get a case study publication out of this.

Amen Ernest!!

People at truthdig DO see right through him, and it didn’t take long.

What a troll he is.

He claimed on another thread that he supported Obama until he switched his support from him to Clinton ‘after finding some things out about Obama’.

He’s a despicable troll.

Now with all due respect, the only thing I disagree with you on in this:

“...especially since Clinton, like Obama, wants the imperial conquest of Iraq to come to an end.”

In all honesty, I DON’T think that Hillary Clinton wants the imperial conquest of Iraq to come to an end. And I say that only because she was emphatic in her own explanation of voting for the war, that Saddam Hussein ‘had to go’, and that the only way it could be done was with military force, because according to her, it was the “only thing that Saddam ever responsed to”.

(sorry I can’t find the link to those direct quotes right now).

So, while I suspect that she may be sorry about the way that it’s turned out, I don’t think she’s ever had a problem in her original determination to do war on Iraq, or that she was unaware that it was a clear violation of the Geneva Conventions that forbid the use of force in any case than self-defense, and without a resolution from the UN security council.

Now of course reasonable people can disagree, and that’s to be expected. I only said that because it was the most important reason why I did not consider her myself, among any of the orginal democratic candidates. In short, of all of them, I would have only selected Hillary at the very bottom of the list, since NONE of the repugs were anywhere close to acceptable.

And had she -taken- the nomination, and had only McCain to run against, I would most certainly have held my nose and voted for her. But, it would definitely have been another one of those scenarios that we’ve become all too familiar with...selecting the best of the evils, because I don’t see a whole lot of difference on anything other than the Iraq war position, between Hillary and McCain. And even that is a relatively ‘new’ position for her. And her threats to ‘obliterate Iran’ provided me with no comfort that she’s ever really backed away from her hawkish position.

Rubbish!  Saddam had no connection to al Qaeda, 9/11 or WMD.  After a trouncing in Gulf War I, 13 years of devastating sanctions that cost the lives of over 500,000 Iraqi children under the age of five and an ongoing aerial assault by US/UK forces in the so-called “no-fly” zone, Iraq could not have mustered a threat to its immediate neighbors, let alone the nation (USA) possessing the most powerful arsenal ever known to man. 

We did not invade Iraq to bring it democracy or to “reduce terrorism.” We invaded precisely for the reasons spelled out by the Project for a New American Century--to create a permanent base of operations for extending US hegemony over the whole of the oil-rich Middle East.  It was and is an imperial conquest, pure and simple.  Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel prize-winning economist, estimates that it has already cost this nation $3 trillion--money that would have been far better spent eradicating a host of problems we have right here at home.  The only ones to benefit have been the oil cartel, KBR, Blackwater and the war profiteers.  Over 4,000 American soldiers are now dead, tens of thousands have been maimed and permanently disfigured; 1 million Iraqis are dead; 4 million more displaced.  We have squandered our nation’s reputation, taken a dark turn into torture and, per our own intelligence estimates, created far more terrorists than we have killed or arrested.

I don’t believe for one minute, JBlack that you are either a Muslim or that you voted for Clinton, especially since Clinton, like Obama, wants the imperial conquest of Iraq to come to an end.  To the contrary, you are probably a neocon, and, considering your bogus claims made elsewhere, an obvious supporter of Mad Dog McCain and his call to tether our troops to Iraq for the next hundred years.  You have appeared at Truthdig posing as a Dem only because you think this will somehow undercut Obama’s chances.  Better take your little charade over to some right-wing web site.  People at Truthdig see right through you.

Honesty is not your strong suit, JBlack.  Stupidity and hubris appear to be.

I selected states at random, except that I intentionally left off MI & FL where many Dems stayed home thinking their votes would not count.  Here are four more

Alabama:  Dem.  BO 300,319; HRC 223,089
Rep.  Huck 227,766; McC 204,867

CO Dem BO 80,113; HRC 38,839
Rep.  Rom 42,218; 12,918

IL Dem.  BO 1,318,234; HRC 661,930
Rep.  McC 426,777; Rom 257,265

TN Dem.  HRC 336,245; BO 252,874
Rep.  Huck. 190,904; McC 116,091

You have made the remarkable claim that McCain received more than 50% of the total votes cast in the primaries.  I have now listed eight states in which McCain has received less than 25% of the vote, and in large states like NY, CA & IL his totals were well below the 25% range.  If you are aware of a single state in which a primary was conducted while the GOP nomination was still contested and in which McCain received 50% or more of the total votes cast, kindly list it.  Otherwise, have the decency to admit that you have made a factually erroneous statement and move on.

BRAVO i.Q!!!!

This is an absolutely SUPERB letter, and I hope that Salon will publish it. (I see no reason why they would not..since it is indeed the best that I’ve read, and I read a lot).

I didn’t see Joan’s comments, since I generally don’t bother with Hardball, but probably only because I don’t bother with any of the MSM. Even the so-called ‘liberal media’ have consistently demonized Obama, as well as his supporters. One can only wonder about the mentality of those who can assume that they could consistently insult huge numbers of people, (Obama supporters) and actually not expect them to take some offense to it.

Neither can even a semi-rational person NOT know that if Hillary (and her husband) had not ENGAGED IN THESE ATTACKS THEMSELVES, the zealots that have followed in the war path would not have either! How much of a no-brainer is that? What kind of a ‘leader’ does that make?

Meantime, I think we have to go back to the reality of what we’ve seen these past several months, (and what you so brilliantly summerize here)admit to the obvious, no matter how painful the reality is.

And that is this...From the beginning..way, way, way back to the beginning, Hillary has been know as a polarizing figure. Now one could say (and be correct) that it is THIS that provides these ‘strengths’ that so many claim she has. This could be true. But for all the ‘good’ that it does, it has the same negative effect, and can do enormous harm. This is what has occurred in this campaign.

What Hillary has proven is that she has NO DISCIPLE to her skills. She’s been unable to control the very strenghts that she has, in part because she lacks any flexibility. In other words...she’s tightly controlled in her plans and the expectations that she has for the results.

She didn’t just throw this thing together. Hillary has been committed to this her entire life, and so has Bill. But people who are SO controlling, and so rigid in the details of their plans, never ‘plan’ for anything that might not work exactly as the blue print has been designed. For them, it only takes the ‘slightest thing’ just one detour that appears on the road that they hadn’t expected. A street or turn-off that was open yesterday, or last year, when the plan was mapped out, but happened to be shut down for whatever the reason, on the day of the journey at that point. So, what to do? What other roads, exits, on-ramps might be available?

She didn’t know. Hadn’t planned on that. At that point, they become flustered, thrown off, and begin to panic and do desperate things. In her case, it was undisciplined attacks, that of course came back to bite her in the ass.

Such hard lessons. It’s usually better to learn this stuff earlier on. But, sometimes it doesn’t work out that way.

Anyway, great piece.

Did you get to listen to the song on you tube? “Obama Regge”. I think I’ll listen to it again. Sometimes it takes a while to understand the words with the Jamaican lilt to them, but it still imparts the mood of celebration.

Give it a rest.  The primary campaign is over.  you are working for McCain perhaps?

See my post “for the mathematically challenged, JBlack.” The raw numbers reflect that you are either badly misinformed or exceptionally dishonest, but then I suspect you are one of those who also believed that Saddam had WMD.

part 2.

Now today she allows surrogates floating petitions to demand her selection as VP, swinging her weight around on a day which she should have had the political savvy to let be Barack’s day. Instead, she created, or by inaction allowed a story to resonate which is negative for her, negative for the party, and negative for the legitimate winner of the nomination. The headline which would be best for the Democratic Party would have been “Barack wins” but instead, in her unwaveringly self-centered way she has allowed it to become “Poor Hillary.”

Hilary Rosen, as i’m sure you know, a Clinton supporter was spot on in her take on this one. Hillary Clinton is a top-tier politician, she should be more skillful, no matter how tired and disappointed she is, than to let the story get out of hand in a way that is not only potentially damaging to the Party’s goals for November, but also will surely make it that much more difficult for Obama to extend her the VP offer should she want it.

It is unfair for you to come down on Obama supporters. We feel we are in a reactive position having endured insult after insult from the Clinton camp, and much of it from her own lips (and Bill’s). It is the sore losers who are pissing on our parade. This isn’t about Hillary, it’s about Barack now and people like me who are legitimately celebrating a hard won victory. i’ve tried to find opportunities to give Hillary Clinton a break as you suggest, but every time i do, she’s right there to stick a finger in my eye.

i wrote this letter in response to Joan’s comments on Hardball this afternoon, but i wanted to share it with all of you. i hope that Hillary supporters can actually hear this, but if it’s too soon i understand.

part1:

Obama supporters worked just as hard as Hillary supporters, some might even say 123 pledged delegates harder. You said in your bit on Hardball that “Obama has been nothing but gracious towards Hillary Clinton” but that some of his supporters were “sore winners.” As an Obama supporter i take great exception to that statement.

Hillary Clinton has made it exceptionally hard for Obama supporters to be gracious to her and her supporters. She has consistently been deceptive about factual issues and has waged a campaign relying on superficial wedge issues to divide the Democratic party. Obama closed out the primaries primarily by arguing his merits and by encouraging a bridging of the gap and an end to partisan tactics. He was also forced to strongly defended himself against spurious allegations which spanned the gamut from the fantastical (is he a secret muslim?) to the speculative (is he Rev. Wright?). HIllary Clinton, instead of defending her colleague, seized the opportunity to pile on along with McCain. She has attacked Obama’s oratorial style — in one instance going so far as to say that she and McCain have experience while Obama has a speech from 2002 (which by the way is the latest center piece of RNC smear material) — and cultured an attitude of distrust of Obama simply because he delivers moving speeches. Is it not possible that someone can speak well and mean what he is saying? Look, i could go on, but i won’t because i would hate for you to think i’m a sore winner.

When Obama supporters try to make an argument based on the merits, we are rebuked and called sexists and/or zealots. Now according to you we are sore winners too.

i think you must have left your objectivity at home today because the reality of the situation is that Obama won, Hillary lost, and in her last greatest opportunity to prepare her supporters for a unified Democratic campaign to win in November, she did the opposite. From a basement effectively isolated from the outside world and most importantly from the news that she had finally lost, her speech began by paying the requisite lip-service to Obama, but it was the same lip-service paid to McCain’s war-hero status right before someone goes after him. She proceeded to antagonize a troubling situation by lauding her duplicitous support for the voters of FL and MI, and gave implicit hope to the crowd who chant “Denver! Denver!” Follow that up with some high minded rhetoric of her own and a recitation of how great she is mixed in with some stump speech greatest hits like “11 year-old boy sells bike.” She may be, as a person, some sort of altruistic warrior, but as a politician she comes across to the 300 minus 17 million Americans who didn’t vote for her as self-serving and willing to put herself and her dynastic ambitions ahead of party and country.

• “Oh and, Cyrena, I am a proud, educated, reasonable black man that gave my support to Sen. Obama before I got to know more about him. Only then did I begin to support Sen. Clinton.”

Ah!! This says it all JBlack. Yep, this says it all. The ‘reasonable’ part of course is humorous…but it fits. You are Clarence Thomas are ideological twins.

I rest my case.

That didn’t take long.

Oh...btw...I don’t insult everyone who disagrees with me. Not by a long shot. ‘REAL’ reasonable folks have differences of opinion on this forum all the time, and it doesn’t require insults to maintain reasoned disagreements.

But for petty pinheads like you, who initiate insults, I’m always willing to return the favor.

Maybe you should just quit while you’re ahead. you’ve already called out a whole bunch of folks for being ‘emotional’ and since we know that to be the opposite case of the ones you’re accusing of such, you pretty much make it clear who the emotional cripple is.

You just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. Didn’t you get what I recommended before? I was really was being helpful. THINK before you write this stuff. Save yourself the embarrassment.

Now we are off to Slice & Dice Mac.
bu tstay away from the Loseers in the DLC, they have nOT been able to ‘Seal the Deal’ since ‘92. Because the REAL Dem Base can Smell the Corp Whore Stench coming off them a Mile away!!!!
I’d like to see the Dem party help the Real Old School Republicans Regain Face - i miss my tight wad formidible foes being across the aisle and I am sick of the covert operatives who have infiltrated OUR party. My Choice for Obama’s VP Sen Chuck Hagel- that’d make them crap their lil’ Corp Sponsors “Red” & “Blue” pants!!!Mac would Implode and Hillary would finally stop holding her Breath and stomping her feet! I bet all the Criminals in Congress who choose not to Run again either- New Sherifffs in Town- ‘Blazing Saddles’. Lets clean Out the Crap that has been allowe dto accumulate over the last 4 decades Shall We???

Oh Louise..

I do love this. I say you’ve done extremely well here, and that practice makes perfect.

You’ve DEFINITELY made the sincere efforts, which we know is far more than I’ve been willing to do.

This whole thing with HRC as VP is what made me remember about those old colleagues of mine from back in the corporate days. (the ones I mentioned to Maani). There was one woman who (and I’m not kidding here) was rather frequently attacked by the customers. (not to mention a few hair pulling fights with other employees).

Now, common sense should dictate that if any employee finds themselves under frequent verbal and physical attacks from the customers, THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH THAT EMPLOYEE! In short, this woman could turn the most mild-mannered person into a screaming rage. There were actually a few like her, but this one was really something. If she didn’t get them madder than hell, she reduced them to tears.

Now if you can think of a position in the government for somebody like that...problem solved!

Except…the repugs have already beat us to it. They have found a way to make EXCELLENT use out of Hillary, and Slick Willey as well. I just came across this really awful, (but obviously not surprising for the repugs) article and campaign ad…I’m almost afraid to post it here, but somebody will come up with a twisted version of it anyway, so I might as well.

This can best be described as “The Knife That Keeps on Stabbing!” Thanks Billary!

Obama’s Clinton problem surfaces—in GOP ads

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/39811.html

Meantime..thanks for the reminder to ALL of us, about how very much on our toes we have to be, in selecting ALL of our next batch of politicians and representatives.

....a great hope for America.

http://www.americahappens.com

cyrena,

Thanks for pointing that out. Perhaps she decided NOT focusing on election change right now could better serve her bid for presidency. You know, as in the system sucks, but I know how to game it. So change has to come after I fail to do so.

Oh crap there I go being negative again.

Actually I would be more comfortable with her fighting to change election law than fighting to change the health care system, but for much the same reasons you mentioned, the public face. Election law is an issue that fry’s everybody’s gizzards, including repubs, independents and libertarians, so that might be right up her alley. And she has demonstrated her ability to hold her own in a cat fight.

Oh crap! Again!

Since EVERYBODY, well except for certain politicians, wants election reform and since Hillary is just really good at fence straddling ... she’s perfect for the job.

Oh crap!

Until Obama is successful in watering down the power lobby like he seems to want to do, we’re kinda stuck with Big Pharma and the Insurance Blood suckers. Hillary could be a plus in those areas since she has a very cozy relationship with them.

OK, I give up!

But more than that, she has tried to make health care reform her legacy. So for that reason I would hope she will sincerely co-operate and support an honest and fairly brokered plan. One that helps all of us and satisfies the big boys enough to make them go along. It wont be perfect, but it will be a beginning and that’s more than ANY republican ever has or ever will give us!

Hey! I think I did it! Maybe ...

Meanwhile there is one very hard reality we all need to face. Our congress.

Almost every problem that drains our life blood ... created by the handmaidens of the oligarchy ... can be fixed in very short order if we have an honest congress. People in congress who see their job as working for us.

And a president with the guts to sign into law legislation they pass that could be painful to certain groups across the country.

As long as we have old republicans who never seem to die [or even fade away] and “bluedogs” in congress, it will be an uphill battle, but it is possible to make that happen. We all vote in the fall. We all need to pay attention to any candidates for congress on that ticket. And who their mentors are!

And we all need to pay attention to any candidates running locally for governor or the state house. I’m not saying if they have an R before their name don’t vote for them, because I think there are as many repubs fed up with the crap as dems. What I am saying is if they are running for re-election check out their history. Better to have an inexperienced person than one who has already demonstrated they put power and party ahead of people.

For example if I see a candidate on the ticket who comes from a background in the Insurance, Real Estate or Banking Industry I wont vote for that candidate no matter what the choice is! Our experience over the past few years should make my reasons abundantly clear!

We cant simply lock Hillary in a closet and pretend she’ll go away. When and if she does, it will be because the voters in New York made that decision. Then she is free to pursue a career with whatever group or industry she chooses.

I just had a thought. Maybe Obama could make her ambassador to Israel!

Oh ... maybe that’s not a very good idea either. We need an ambassador to Israel who comes from a reality background.

Oh crap ... again!

JBlack:  Here are just four examples demonstrating why your claim that more than half the electorate has already voted for McCain is utter rubbish.

State: Party Candidate Total Votes

CA Dem HRC 2,604,184
B.O.  2,186,622

Rep McC 1,238,988
Rom.  1,013,471

The combined total of HRC & B.O. more than doubled the combined total of McC/Rom and was nearly four times as great as the McC vote.

MN Dem B.O.  142,109
HRC 68,994

Rep Rom.  25,990
McC 13,826

The combined HRC/BO total was more than five times the total vote for Rom/McC

NY Dem HRC 1,068,496
B.O.  751,019

Rep McC 333,001
Rom.  178,043

The combined HRC/BO total was more than 3 1/2 times the vote for McC/Rom.

ARK Dem HRC 206,983
B.O.  78,898

Rep Huck.  130,541
McC 44,093

The combined HRC/BO total is 1.6 times as great as the Huck/McC total.  Moreover, McC received only 8 1/2% of the total votes (Rep & Dem) cast in the ARK primary.

Care to revise your claim that McCain received more than half the votes cast by the American people in the primaries?

Louise..on this

“So I think all of Hillary’s disappointed and sometimes angry supporters should get behind her, as should we, and encourage her to lead a fight in the Senate for REAL election reform! Who better would be qualified to take on this important issue? One that we all have at one time or another been upset about.”

I’m not trying to be ‘difficult’ or anything, but if I’m not mistaken, Hillary said she was gonna do something about this “electoral process” nearly 8 years ago, (like in a brief comment about the 2000 debacle) but...it never happened. Matter of fact, she never mentioned it again.

On the health care thing, she might be more helpful, since she worked on that before. But, that will still mean deciding between two masters...will it be US, or will it be the Corporate Clan, that quite frankly, she’s long been attached to.

It seems far more apparent to us now, that this is the big, big, big ‘change’ that we are demanding now..the return to a democracy, rather than a Corporate Oligarchy. Unless Clinton, (and all the rest of the DNC) can make that choice between which master they choose to serve, the going will be rough.

Maani, I agree with this, and manage to do the same myself:

• “By the way, I deliberately read the publications of my “enemies” because it helps me to see how they are thinking.  If one ONLY reads publications that one agrees with, one is limited, and does not get a broader view of the world.”

It DOES provide more than just a ‘broader view of the world’. It think it’s a REQUIREMENT to understand how everyone thinks, and more specifically…WHY!

However, that’s also the reason to be semi-selective in what one reads from ‘the enemies’ (I don’t generally refer to different or opposing views as ‘enemies’ but I get your point).  And I say ‘semi-selective’ because if it’s nothing more than propaganda, it’s of little use in discerning what one needs to know/understand of that ‘broader view’.  In my own reading experience, the NY Sun is propaganda. (thanks for the clarification on the ownership)

That’s not to say that what you’ve posted here in this ‘specific’ isn’t ‘true’ but I admit that I question it. I don’t get how (or why) Barack Obama would suddenly make such an about face on the issue of Iran, when he’s made it clear from the beginning, that his first point of anything on Iran, would be direct talks with them.

Be that as it may, this isn’t the first mention that I’ve heard or read about him now allegedly claiming Iran to be a ‘threat’. That said, I’m definitely going to follow Obama’s position on Iran, because in my opinion, Iran should not be a priority for him. They aren’t a threat to us here at home, and we’ve got more important things to concern ourselves with. I suspect Obama knows that, seeing as how he only re-iterated –AGAIN- during his victory speech, the things that matter to US, here at home. The economy, jobs, education, health care, our physical infrastructure, (including the environment) and the most important infrastructure, which is US… the socio-economic well being of ‘we the people’.  I didn’t hear anything from him about Iran,(which is good) because Iran has nothing to do with our selection of a president.

As for the vote counts; popular v anything else…I’m convinced that Obama won the majority, and that he will easily win in November. (in other words…the numbers are good enough to make the case for him as the nominee chosen through the standard process that’s been around far longer than I have.) How much of a ‘landslide’ it is in November will depend in part, on who he selects as a running mate, or who the party encourages him to select. There are many possibilities to choose from, (depending on who would be willing to do it) but Hillary isn’t one of them, and it’s time to move on.  If nothing else, this primary has proven that AMERICANS, are ready for a change. Not just democrats, but AMERICANS. Based on that, he DOES have a popular mandate, because the overall popular vote –the phenomenal numbers of new participants to the system- had everything to do with his inclusion in this primary, and his connection with such a large majority of the population.

That isn’t to say that Hillary doesn’t have some talents, because she does. But her ‘valuable’ skills are of the administrative type. In other words, Hillary can be far more valuable as ‘support staff’ that stays behind the scenes, and out of public contact.

This reminds me of back in the days when I was responsible for staffing at my former corporation. There were a handful of personnel in customer service that were really good with the ‘details’ of the job, but they consistently pissed off the customers in direct contact with them. (which obviously didn’t do the overall operation any good). But in the support positions, (back office, out of public contact) where they could work pretty independently (because they didn’t get along with any of their co-workers either) they were really productive.

So, I’m sure there will be a place for Hillary, but the American voters have already decided that it won’t be as the next President.

Maani, I agree with this, and manage to do the same myself:

• “By the way, I deliberately read the publications of my “enemies” because it helps me to see how they are thinking.  If one ONLY reads publications that one agrees with, one is limited, and does not get a broader view of the world.”

It DOES provide more than just a ‘broader view of the world’. It think it’s a REQUIREMENT to understand how everyone thinks, and more specifically…WHY!

However, that’s also the reason to be semi-selective in what one reads from ‘the enemies’ (I don’t generally refer to different or opposing views as ‘enemies’ but I get your point).  And I say ‘semi-selective’ because if it’s nothing more than propaganda, it’s of little use in discerning what one needs to know/understand of that ‘broader view’.  In my own reading experience, the NY Sun is propaganda. (thanks for the clarification on the ownership)

That’s not to say that what you’ve posted here in this ‘specific’ isn’t ‘true’ but I admit that I question it. I don’t get how (or why) Barack Obama would suddenly make such an about face on the issue of Iran, when he’s made it clear from the beginning, that his first point of anything on Iran, would be direct talks with them.

Be that as it may, this isn’t the first mention that I’ve heard or read about him now allegedly claiming Iran to be a ‘threat’. That said, I’m definitely going to follow Obama’s position on Iran, because in my opinion, Iran should not be a priority for him, because it shouldn’t be a priority for us.

Iran is not a ‘threat’ to us here at home,(r anybody else) and we’ve got more important things to concern ourselves with. I suspect Obama knows that, seeing as how he only re-iterated –AGAIN- during his victory speech, the things that matter to US, here at home. The economy, jobs, education, health care, our physical infrastructure, (including the environment) and the most important infrastructure, which is US… the socio-economic well being of ‘we the people’.  I didn’t hear anything from him about Iran, and that’s good.

As for the vote counts; popular v anything else…I’m convinced that Obama won the majority, and that he will easily win in November. (in other words…the numbers are good enough to make the case for him as the nominee chosen through the standard process that’s been around far longer than I have.) How much of a ‘landslide’ it is in November will depend in part, on who he selects as a running mate, or who the party encourages him to select. There are many possibilities to choose from, (depending on who would be willing to do it) but Hillary isn’t one of them, and it’s time to move on.  If nothing else, this primary has proven that AMERICANS, are ready for a change. Not just democrats, but AMERICANS. Based on that, he DOES have a popular mandate, because the overall popular vote –the phenomenal numbers of new participants to the system- had everything to do with his inclusion in this primary, and his connection with such a large majority of the population.

That isn’t to say that Hillary doesn’t have some talents, because she does. But her ‘valuable’ skills are of the administrative type. In other words, Hillary can be far more valuable as ‘support staff’ that stays behind the scenes, and out of public contact.

This reminds me of back in the days when I was responsible for staffing at my former corporation. There were a handful of personnel in customer service that were really good with the ‘details’ of the job, but they consistently pissed off the customers in direct contact with them. (which obviously didn’t do the overall operation any good). But in the support positions, (back office, out of public contact) where they could work pretty independently (because they didn’t get along with any of their co-workers either) they were really productive.

So, I’m sure there will be a place for Hillary, but the American voters have already decided that it won’t be as the next President.

Regarding let Obama know.

Right, let him know, but please do so with dignity.

Obama made it very clear last night, he does not want his campaign to degenerate into negative hate and name calling. Attack the issues, not the person.

OK, I know I sound hypocritical, but I’m trying to improve ... honest.

Anyway, I see Hillary as having great value to the country right now.

Let me explain.

Every election cycle we go through this. Popular vote versus delegate vote, and I’m not just talking about the democrat party. The same thing happens in the general election ... remember?

So I think all of Hillary’s disappointed and sometimes angry supporters should get behind her, as should we, and encourage her to lead a fight in the Senate for REAL election reform! Who better would be qualified to take on this important issue? One that we all have at one time or another been upset about.

And Hillary does have value as a supporter of REAL change in our health care system. We need to use that. And she also has some clout in congress. We need to recognize and use that. And I’m sure Obama does and will.

I personally do not believe he will ask her to be his VP, but I could be wrong. And besides as a general rule these things are decided at the convention and the influence from members of the party and delegates has a play in the final decision.

But I could be wrong. Who knows? Perhaps Obama will pick a running mate early on to silence the Hillary for VP noise.

Since Hillary has not yet conceded, there is always the possibility that she could try and upset the apple cart, but I see Obama’s success in pulling so many delegates to his side in the last few days as an indication of the party powers wanting to see an end to the division And perhaps seeing Hillary, or at least some of her more vocal supporters, as contributing to that division.

And there is the very real issue of candidates
across the country losing support because of their support of Hillary. And that can be directly attributed to her war vote, her assassination remarks and her using a few questionable tactics that could be seen as racial.

In my State there were three congressional superdelegates who came out early as Hillary delegates. They very publicly switched to Obama yesterday, saying the need to stop this bickering and unite the party was far more important.

I suspect that is the biggest reason so many previously committed Hillary delegates have switched over. And for what it’s worth, seeing her supporters, even on the rules committee lose it Saturday and say some pretty crazy things probably helped them make that decision. Proving once again. Negative campaigning doesn’t work well for democrats.

As far as blacks packing guns and wanting payback. Uh ... that has got to be an isolated incident, if indeed it’s true. You want to see angry folks packing guns, go visit Texas. And note most of them are white. Anger and stupidity do not belong exclusively to any one race or gender.

What I saw last night caused a real lump in my throat. Not the speech. Not the huge crowd. Not even Obama declaring himself the candidate. No, what caused a lump in my throat was watching the crowd milling around Obama.

Could only see the top of his head and sometimes not even that, but what I saw that impacted me were the arms. The arms reaching to shake his hand, or simply touch him. The arms. Black, white, brown, yellow, tan, male, female, small, big, young, old, and all belonging to citizens of this nation.

Like me, members of the greatest melting pot on earth. A country where gender and race are not near so important as coming together to right our sinking ship.

And finally, to all you McCain supporters, thank you for identifying yourselves. Makes it easier to know how to respond to you. We all encourage free speech. Just try and make enough sense so we can have an intelligent running dialogue. OK?

Cyrena:

“Only you would see/read/hear this as a ‘gloating’ Maani.”

It was not the article I was reading as a “gloat,” but some of the comments made by posters here.

“We can rest assurred that you will continue to do everything in your power to stand in the way of hope, change and optimism, like a cancer that just will not go away.”

I do not stand in the way of anything.  I simply call it like I see it.

“As an aside, I can’t believe you call yourself a democrat, and actually read the nysun. Isn’t that Rev Sun Moon’s newspaper, or do I have that mixed up with some other tabloid that he owns?”

Ad hominem attacks - even on publications - don’t do you credit.  So what if the Sun is right-of-center, and even if it WERE owned by Moon (it is not; it is owned by Conrad Black)?  This does not change whether the news it reports is correct or not.  And it is.

By the way, I deliberately read the publications of my “enemies” because it helps me to see how they are thinking.  If one ONLY reads publications that one agrees with, one is limited, and does not get a broader view of the world.

Re the discussion on “voting” (per JBlack’s original comment), the truth is that, re the Democrats, the voters were split, and the popular vote remains a statistical tie; out of some 35 million votes cast, 48% went to Obama, 47% to Clinton.  And this is NOT counting MI or FL.  So anyone who thinks that Obama has a POPULAR mandate, via the popular vote, is deluding themselves.

Finally, re the comment that JFK “got us involved in Vietnam,” this is historically incorrect.  Although DDE was at first dissuaded from supporting the French in Vietnam, he did send “advisers,” and eventually sent some troops (covertly).  And JFK did, at first, send additional troops (again, covertly).  HOWEVER, by 1963, he was convinced that remaining in Vietnam was a bad strategy, and he began planning to remove the troops and advisers. Indeed, it was shortly after he signed an executive order which would have removed the advisers that he was assassinated.  Many assassination theorists believe this was WHY he was assassinated.  And LBJ’s famous comment only weeks after JFK’s death - “Gentleman, you have your war” - is strong circumstantial evidence that this was, in fact, the case.

Peace.

Obviously, JBlack, math was not your strong suit in school.  McSame’s support comes from the same 28% who still think George W. is doing a good job.  Mad Dog McCain will not even do well amongst Veterans--not after he joined with Bush in opposing the new GI Bill which would merely give to returning Iraq vets the same educational benefits that I received upon returning from Vietnam.

Hopefully, given your lack of skills in math, they won’t put you in charge of counting the vote.  The only way McSame can win the election is to steal it.

Vote for Obama, and, “Color will set you free.”

Robertr…

You have to consider the source here. JBlack comes across as exactly what he is, and after only a couple of posts. An Obama hating troll, who is mad as hell that Obama was the prefered candidate.

He (or she) is in a serious meltdown, and serious denial...like a drunk that keeps counting his money, thinking that it’s somehow gonna change from 3 cents to 5 cents if he count’s it enough times.

So, like all others of his delusional type, he/she will make these incredibly stupid statements like ‘the vast majority of the electorate voted for someone else’ and not even realize how incredibly ignorant that is.

I mean come on, the ‘vast majority’ voted for someone else? WHO? WHO did the ‘vast majority’ vote for, and why don’t we know about it? Why do the numbers that the rest of US see, indicate that a larger portion of the people who voted, voted for Barack Obama?

Is it a vast Obama conspiracy or something, that somehow posted numbers for the past 6 months that add up to MORE VOTES FOR Obama than Clinton OR McCain?

Nope. I think JBlack who obviously hates anybody black, (no pun intended) just sees a different collection of numbers than the rest of us.

S/he can count, just doesn’t use the same system as everybody else does.

More to the point of his post though, was to say that ‘everybody doesn’t love Obama’.

Well DUH? We know THAT! There’s been enough race hate on display in this campaign to make THAT crystal clear!

So JBlack is just reminding us that the racists are in a meltdown, and having hissy fits. This sort of hate is a powerful thing, and it DEFINITELY transcends political parties, and everything else.

It’s also impossible for the average person to comprehend, because race hatred isn’t based on any sort of logic or reason.

Don’t forget, the KKK had a lot of so-called democrats among their ranks as well, so this isn’t confined to any political party affiliation.

half the country voted for McCain?  Hmmm, where did you get that, JBlack?  If you look a raw numbers, when the primaries were contested in both parties the numbers voting for “all” the Republican candidates combined was about one-fifth of what either Clinton or Obama were taking in alone.

While McCain will now do his level best to try to separate himself from the disaster we know as the Bush agenda, truth be told, he is to the right of Dick Cheney on matters of war and peace, and is as clueless on the economy as Herbert Hoover.

After listening to McCain and Obama speak last night in succession, I was struck by the superiority of Obama’s intellectual eloquence and the inferiority of the McCain effort to resurrect the media-concocted image of him as a Maverick.

It is probable that we are looking at a Democratic landslide in November.  Whether that will translate to meaningful progressive change remains to be seen.

Do you really believe, after enduring Bush for nearly eight years, that there is no substantial difference between the Democratic and Republican parties? Sure, they both receive money from questionable places and there is much that needs to be changed, but no difference? Ralph Nader would not “give” us single-payer health care or anything else. If Nader truly believes in the need for expansion of the two-party system he needs to work with people at the local and state level to start building on that expansion. Even if Nader, by some miracle, could become president he would not be able to unilaterally institute the change you are talking about. He would have to work with the same people as Obama. So, you can get on board with someone who represents the potential for change in the real world or cling to your childish bitterness and accomplish nothing.

I am neither for nor against Obama/Change but...I had to go up on Pierson Rd[Flint Michigan] last nite..The North Enders were dancing in the street-and I saw several handguns being waved around...and they were yelling stuff like” now we are gonna get our rights and we can take what we deserve"[two comments I heard as I started to get out of my car]-
needless to say-I got back in my car and went to another store-OH BY THE WAY-they just layed off more of our police force.......

What the hell do you mean, “vast majority of the electorate voted for someone else”? It has been a close race, but more people selected Obama than Clinton, whether in primaries or caucuses (and caucuses do count, regardless of what the Clinton campaign says). So grow up, get educated, and get on board with the candidate of the Democratic Party. Or maybe you just want to take your ball and go home because things didn’t go your way.

Frank..thanks for the links.

Glad to know that even the pundits are thinking the same way that we are. I cannot imagine anything that would more undermine the work that has been accomplished to far, than to put Hillary on the ticket.

And, just in case the punditry isn’t enough..let me pass along the suggestion that I posted earlier, and that Louise has followed up on...LET OBAMA and the DNA KNOW...that you don’t want Hillary jacking up our efforts.

Obama has been asking for VP suggestions for a while now...so contact his website and the DNC, and give them your suggestions. ANYBODY except Hillary!

The best thing Obama can do now to show that he is strong, independent, Presidential, and NOT a doormat for the DNC or anyone else, is to deny Hillary the VP slot.  Some pundits are saying the same thing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080604/pl_politico/ 10827_3

HIllary as VP will undermine Obama every step of the way, trying to be a de facto co-president with Obama, claiming her electoral victories as a mandate.  She frequently overstepped her (non-existent) authority as a First Lady in trying to shape policy, you can be sure she will try to ignore the boundaries of Vice President if she is given the opportunity.

Some conspiracy theorists are whispering that, given the people in Hillary’s past who have died suspicious deaths, Obama better have a very good Secret Service detail if HIllary is one heartbeat away from the presidency.  While I am distrustful of her, I don’t think she is that devious, but I think she will be a liability as well as a general pain in the ass for Obama if he takes her on the ticket.

I think BIll Richardson and John Edwards are on the short list for the VP slot, and both will resonate with some demographic that Obama needs help with in the general election.

On a personal note, I am glad that HIllary’s campaign is over. Now somebody please show her the stage door and let’s get on with the real show.

Specially after the Freudian(?) slip about the assassination! Would you want this person to be your veep???

Dear Ted Joad,
Thank you…EVER SO MUCH for posting these links.
Of COURSE it’s time to PARTY! It’s been so long, (and SUCH a struggle to overcome so much negativity) that I think some of us may have forgotten how.
But, the Obama Reggae did the trick! I love it! Brings me temporarily back to better days, (fun and exhilarating days of the “Reggae in Celebration”) and promises of a return to them. Oh Yes!
(I listened 3 times, and now I’ve decided this is worth a creation of rum punch!)
So, I’m posting your links again here at the top, so everyone can get in the mood. We have more work to do, and so I thank you for the other link as well. I will consult that thinking site on a regular basis.
Meantime, this feels like Fat Tuesday, (the final day of Mardi Gras). Yep..let’s celebrate!

Do a little dance, sing little tune..whatever…just celebrate!

Obama Reggae
Let’s party, man!  This is HISTORIC!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxn9jhypHfo

And seriously, here’s a great Obama website:

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/

Sorry, but “Obama’s triumph” was more likely due to the fact he’s of male gender, as well as to fact media fell in love. I did think a year ago that Hillary would be media’s choice. Media jumped aboard Obama bandwagon awhile back, apparently dumb-struck by Kennedy-esque performances. (Kennedy, who talked the talk a whole lot better than Obama, got us involved in Vietnam, a few might recall.)

But yes, Obama got super-delegates into line. So much for democratic proceedings inside the “Democratic” Party. If Obama took his name off the ballot in Michigan, that was by his own choice. Why, one wonders, did he do that when other candidates didn’t?

Hillary did in fact win big states, and did in fact win popular vote (if Michigan and Florida votes are taken into account, which they should be, since for voters in those states to have gone to polls on some other day after February 5th would most likely have resulted in finding doors locked. Even had they found doors unlocked, they’d not have found machines of any kind by which to cast votes. They pretty much had to go on days appointed by state officials who also have no use for democracy).

So-called “super”-delegates started falling into Obama line months ago. Which came first: Media backing or super-delegate-backing? Bearing in mind the fact a host of super-delegates also appear regularly as pundits.

Last Saturday’s proceedings weren’t so much akin to watching sausage being made as—precisely—to observing power do what power tends to do—take control, pending little people get to feeling, much less acting, uppity. Lots of talk about democratic process, fact proceedings were anything but democratic notwithstanding.

Some chatterer in media said on one or another network this evening that Obama needs Clinton now more than she needs him. True enough and for more than one reason. Anyone who caught Juan Gonzalez’s comments on DN this morning regarding Puerto Rican vote knows at least one reason Obama needs Clinton more than she needs him. Not that Hillary is actually working-class hero.

So, Obama—same as Clinton—would give us “universal” healthcare, while Nader would give us single-payer healthcare along with a few years of not insisting on waging war. And going after real bosses manning (as well as womanning) corporate boardrooms. New cappo will be same as old cappo, whether Obama, Clinton or McCain, who this evening came over as…just slightly frightening. No matter color and/or gender. Hard to say if selection of Obama really was partly a function of one form of bigotry losing out to another. Partly, I have to think.

Otherwise, Barack Obama (who seems an okay guy for a more-or-less wealthy mainstream politician) became media’s choice and then was selected, no less than was George Bush in 2000, albeit by more blatantly (publicly displayed) undemocratic means, as those of us who got to observe “sausage-making” learned.

What a country, rather empire.

Only you would see/read/hear this as a ‘gloating’ Maani.

We can rest assurred that you will continue to do everything in your power to stand in the way of hope, change and optimism, like a cancer that just will not go away.

As an aside, I can’t believe you call yourself a democrat, and actually read the nysun. Isn’t that Rev Sun Moon’s newspaper, or do I have that mixed up with some other tabloid that he owns?

We celebrate a hard won victory.

My empathy certainly extends to you. And i’m sure some will construe this post as somehow an insult, so please believe me when i tell you i really understand your disappointment. At some point we all have experienced a deep sense of loss.

Please help to ensure a mandate for change. We should all hold Obama to account, his supporters included. If this bill warrants opposition, we should dissent.

i’ll have to look into that tomorrow. Tonight i am more interested in my optimism for the future.

ribbons of undulating interconnectivity.

That’s sometimes a hard one to catch, especially since the spell checker assumes it’s correct.

Another observation:

“Obama arranged a victory celebration at the site of this summer’s Republican National Convention—an in-your-face gesture to Sen. John McCain....”

Is it just me, or is that a rather strong characterization for an AP release?

Barack Obama picking BILLARY Clinton as vice president will be like me picking a spitting Cobra as a room mate!

Yes, Obama may have won.  And those who “predicted” this can gloat if they like (though that is not very “sportsmanlike”...).

Yet there are those of us who predicted something else: that Obama is not, and never was, what he claimed to be; i.e., we did not believe all of his rhetoric, and warned that, if elected, he would end up being quite different from the candidate that all of the gloaters now seem to be so happy about.

And we are being proven correct.  For example, Obama is already backtracking from his position on Iran. First, he has backed away from his claim that he would meet with Ahmadinejad, saying now that “a number of conditions would have to be met” before he did so.  This was NOT the rhetoric he campaigned on.

As well, in preparation for his speech (read “pandering") to AIPAC next week, he has decided to embrace the Kyl-Lieberman bill’s claim that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is a “terrorist organization” - something for which Hillary was mercilessly lambasted on this site when she voted for the bill.  And Obama is “spinning” this by claiming that he “always” felt that the IRG was a “terrorist group” and only voted against K-L because of language re potential military action.  Hey, kids, can you spell “dissemble?”

http://www.nysun.com/national/obama-plays-defense-agai nst-mccains-iran-barbs/79107/

To paraphrase an old saw, “You get the candidate you deserve.” As Obama’s positions and policies start to shift away from the rhetoric of the primary campaign, those who are gloating now may ultimately be the ones crying in their coffee when Obama turns out to be little or nothing like what they expected - or “hoped” - him to be.

Peace.

Well, yeah, I predicted this. Yay? Hillary has not backed off. Guess we have to wait until Denver.