Lets hope this is only a temporary break with his church and his friends families.

Pastors come and go, churches are as only as good as the people who attend them.

AIPAC and their church have had some unpleasent things to say about Obama lately. F’em.

It can’t be a good sign of the times that a political candidate is being pressured to leave his church.

I remember the John Kennedy election. There were misgivings that a Catholic president would have to honor his first allegiance to Rome, if push came to shove.  But, at no time was it even considered that Kennedy would leave his church nor was he ever pressured to do so.  It would have been unthinkable, unconscionable, unforgiveable.

If there was one at the time unprecedented promise specified in our Constitution it was that religion was to have no part in American law or justice.  How far we’ve fallen.

“...I do not feel sorry for Obama on this issue because he chose that church as a prop for his political ambitions..

Gee, I didn’t know that troublesome. I thought he ‘chose’ that church when he married Michelle, since it happened to be her church, and back 20 or so years ago, that’s pretty much the way things worked out, especially if ‘the groom’ doesn’t happen to HAVE a church or a religion. Since Obama’s mother was an atheist, (a position that I highly reccommend) and his father had long since returned to Kenya, (and wasn’t particularly religious himself) I thought that’s how Obama ended up joining that faith, and that particular congregation.

Now who would have thought that he was planning his political career back 20 years ago, and decided to zero in on Trinity to help him launch it?

Well, YOU did. So, I guess that makes the rest of us look pretty foolish. You say he chose it as a ‘prop’ so that must be so.

Still, I’m glad you don’t ‘feel sorry’ for him. I’d really hate it if you ‘felt sorry’ for him on ANY issue.

I KNOW ABOUT HYPOCRISY.........As a person of Native American extraction + German Jew + Scots -MY ANCESTORS HAVE SEEN IT ALL...SOooo I understand the ISSUE OF OBAMA....and his CHURCH..BUT[here is the controversy]WOULD WE BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION IF HE WAS WHITE,SOUTHERN and his PRIEST/MINISTER WAS A MEMBER OF THE KKK????

Amen to Female in Texas,

I couldn’t have said it better.

Here’s a link to Obama’s Senate office page. On the current homepage, you’ll find one of the MANY issues that our furture president has on his plate NOW, in dealing with the issues facing our vets. Specifically here, is the on-going practice of ignoring them as they return from this illegal war, and the on-going attempts by the corrupt administration to avoid proper diagnosis and treatment for them, in order to save costs. It’s just another crime against us all, and Obama is dealing with that, among a million other things.

Here’s his website:

http://obama.senate.gov/

We won’t even bother to ask why Hillary has done NONE of this, or ANYTHING for our vets, despite the fact that she has been on the Senate Armed Services Committee since 2003, when she postured for that position in her plans to run for president.

We won’t bother because we know what’s going on.

Now, let’s get beyond the bullshit, and get some work accomplished.

Thanks again to the Female in Texas.

My church is not me!

Well, to be completely forthcoming, i no longer have or want a church. There are many reasons for this, but one of those reasons has been on display since “Goddamn America” began to echo endlessly through the halls of cyber space back in March. It is probably the same reason i remain politically unaffiliated. The regard for group identity all too often trumps the ability to assess an individual on his or her merit.

Take for example the following unfinished statement: He’s seems nice enough, but he’s a __________. Now think of all the group identity terms you could insert which would preclude your associating with this poor individual. Muslim? Atheist? Used car salesman? Alcoholic? Smoker? Drug addict? Foreigner? Pederast?
ANSW: the correct answer is Republican

Granted, some of the terms i’ve chosen have behaviors ascribed to them which might be unforgivable to most, but by filling in the blank, you learn more about your own biased attitudes to a word than you do about the person himself.

This entire church is being subjected to the same treatment on a massive scale. Instead of viewing Trinity as a congregation of individuals, the myopic attention of the media has unfairly lumped every nuance of a diverse group of people into a single entity. In their zeal to drum up controversy, the reporters lingering around Trinity have created a sad situation, the solution to which is Obama’s unavoidable resignation from the church. Neither Obama nor Trinity can function as they need unless they are treated as separate entities.

Obama is not a coward as Marvin higgins suggests. Obama’s motives are no doubt mixed and multifaceted, friendships and personal histories have to be weighed against the needs of his campaign and the autonomy of his former church. It is clear now that Obama’s continued membership would be just as damaging to Trinity as Trinity might be to his presidential aspirations.

It is painfully obvious how difficult it has been for Obama to cut ties with this congregation. Had his membership in the church and subsequent relationships with its members been pure political calculation — as some here have claimed — he most certainly would have severed all ties with Trinity quickly and long ago. That is unless he’s using double secret reverse psychology.

Our biased media, with “journalists” continuing to report a dead horse story, do it at the behest of their corporate owned employers who have their own agenda.

Obama will be temporarily leaving his Chicago church for a new one here in Washington DC when he assumes his new job at 1600 Pennsylvannia Ave.

He’e got his work cut out, undoing the birdsnest of beaurocracy which has grown here.  He needs some good Axemen in his employ.

Obama is going to have to ignore the media when it asks for more ritual disembowelment - and it will.  They’re not interested in a campaign based on issues.  They are absorbed in this “first Black president” drama and every nuance thereof.  “How Black are you?” is the only question they are interested in.

I disagree Marvin, because the Church would NOT have asked him to leave. (at least not if the congregation really is a church that believes its value comes from the sum of its congregation, and how it serves its community). HOWEVER, how much more ‘evidence’ do you need, to see that the racist and anti-Obama population have chosen to target that Congregation, (everyone in it) and make THEIR lives miserable and unbearable, ONLY because of Barack Obama’s association with it?!

In short, how many of ANY of you/us even KNEW of that Church, or its pastors, or its congregation, or the community that it serves , OR PAID THE SLIGHTEST BIT OF ATTENTION TO THEM, until Barack Obama decided to run for President and the Rove machine kicked in and focused on THEM, because they could ‘find’ any other ‘dirt’ on HIM?

So by an ‘association’ that needed to be created as a negative, they tuned in on the Church as some negative extremist church, (see the hypocritical bigot Donald’s ‘contribution’ above) ONLY because Obama was a member there! If he’d been a member of YOUR Church, they would have found a way to demonize your congregation instead!

So now, ANYTHING that happens at Trinity will be turned into something that it isn’t, and it is the Congregation that suffers from that, just because the point is to demonize Obama!!

More to the point, (at least from my perspective) ones faith in any religion should not be tied to a stucture or a specific community. If your ‘church’ is the only way you have to identify as a man of faith, that’s pretty sad.

That’s not to negate the importance of a ‘home church’ for peoples of certain denominations, but I don’t get how somebody who doesn’t have ‘one particular group’ in which to ‘formally participate’ is unable to practice something as ambiguous as a belief in an ideology, which is what ‘religion’ is.

Now which Church are you attending today? Time to get there. My sympathies to your fellow church members.

This is why I don’t go to church - petty people like you who don’t have a clue to what faith and spirituality are even about. You must be the fire and brimstoner, casting judgment on everyone around you. Coward!

• “...When there are Blanant National Security Threats given TV & Radio Shows. When such HERETICs and Extremeist as Hagee & Parsley are allowed to publicly spew not only hatred- but WAR PLANS!!!”..

Ya know Purple Girl, you’ve hit on something here.  This activity is actually forbidden under domestic and International Law in the domestic “Hate Crimes” laws, and covered (albeit by a stretch of the legal imagination I must admit) under the Covenant on Civil and Political Rights as well as the International Convention for the Prevention of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. These require the interdiction of racist propaganda.

Now the way I came to this was from an example addressed by the requirement in the Genocide Convention. (The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide) The ‘prevention’ part of it includes a prohibition of ” incitement to genocide”, and in the particular piece that I’ve just been over for the 3rd time for my own work, there is an example cited for how this might have been accomplished in the case of the Rwanda Genocide.

• “In Rwanda, a contribution to the prevention of genocide might have been made by jamming the wave of Radio Mille Collines, which was responsible for promoting so much ethnic hatred. The Rwandan experience mandates some action to prevent hate speech that constitutes incitement to genocide.” *

*”The Genocide Convention at Fifty – United States Institute of Peace Special Report, Jan. 7, 1999.

Now of course there’s the problem here with what is a possible interference with the need to ensure freedom of expression, which is how folks like Hagee and Palsey, and multitudes of other Hate Organizations get away with this stuff.

Still, this came to mind as I read your post, since jamming Hagees air waves, (or simply keeping him off the air completely) would have a decidedly beneficial effect on preventing this outrageous hate propaganda from being perpetrated. Of course, as I mentioned, this is next to impossible to accomplish, because of our so-called freedom of speech, which as we know, is applied very arbitrarily. For instance, you were banned from Huffpo, (no great insult if you ask me…I’ve been thrown out of better places) and now, it appears the same has happened to Non Credo right here, which I find particularly upsetting. Still, it’s worth a consideration, or maybe I’ve just been reading too much and need a break.

At any rate, if you have nothing better to do, (and I realize that most folks DO have lives beyond researching things like genocide, torture, hate crimes, and various other legalities that deal with these issues) it might be interesting to check out the hate crime/speech legislation on the domestic front. I’ll admit that it’s a paradoxical ball of worms, and it’s skimpy, because the neo-cons have done everything possible to limit the scope of such legislation. Matter of fact, I specifically remember when this came up at the time that the potted plant strain GWB was playing at being Governor of Texas. In the aftermath of the brutal dragging death of James Byrd Jr. in Jasper TX by 3 White Supremacists, the victim’s sister traveled from Hawaii to Texas to meet with GW to implore him to implement hate crime legislation. She had an appointment, he knew she was coming, and he refused to see her when she got there. I guess it goes without saying that he refused to consider such legislation.

However, there has been some limited progress in this in some states. (Hagee of course makes his headquarters in Tx, and so spews his hate from there, though it is ‘received’ nationwide.) And yep…it ‘incites’ the very thing that it is intended to incite.

Anyway, I thought I’d throw that in when I read your post. Seems like there ought to be a way to shut him down. We like that expression, “There oughtta be a law”. Well, there IS!

I think you are wrong.  Many white people have already voted for him and they will vote for him in November.  I will vote for him even though I don’t agree with him on just about anything.  He is the lesser of two evils and that’s the only choice we ever get.  The media will destroy him if he doesn’t resign from that church.  It’s true that white people can do anything when it comes to religion.  Bill Clinton had a piece of ass in his hands one day and a Bible the next.

I do not feel sorry for Obama on this issue because he chose that church as a prop for his political ambitions.  It may have served well for an aspiring Illinos state legislator but as a candidate for president he should have seen this coming a long time ago.  Where is the candidate who will say, “Religion is not important to me and I do not attend church.” When they pretend about this stuff it always turns around and bites them in the ass.

I am sorry for Barrack Obama; he has been maligned for his association with a church that served him and his family for many years. Religion has value for many people and though I am not religious, I support and defend every persons right to their beliefs. Barrak Obama had and still has every right to belong to any church he chooses. Religions tend to represent philosophies of individuals and can sometimes be extreme but that does not mean that every member is an extremist. A friend of mine who argued for the value of “church community” showed me that perceptions of this value are based on personal life experience and social need.
I HOPE THAT THOUGH HE GAVE UP HIS MEMBERSHIP IN THAT CHURCH; HE DIDN’T LOSE HIS FAITH. He will need all the “faith” he can get to be the President this country needs!

time to lay out Hagee, Parsley and the Rest of “Satans” Minions.
How dare they claim the are ‘men of God’
What ‘God’ requires them to accomplish ANYTHING
Who are THEy to be Judges for God, Who are they to determine Who will be ‘Blessed’,Saved’ or ‘Damned’.Who are They to determine if & When ‘End of Days’ will Occur.
What Entity would Require Such Militant actions and Arrogant ideologies???"Could It Be Satan”.
How dare they Ordain THEMSELVES as Judge & Jury to other Creations by the divine and Be so Blasphemous to Set the Time of What is to occur in this Omnipotents design. It is time We fight Fire with Fire. They must Prove They are NOT the Agents for this ‘AntiChrist’ they so ardently claim is Coming. So far throught History THEIR actions and Words have proven their Allegeince is Not ‘Holy’.I beleive the Bible Tells Us The Anti Christ an dHis followers will Be ‘Deceivers’.Their Own arrogance is proof of their desire for personal Idolatry- They lead an Army of Heretics and Sinners!

I am outraged and Pissed Sen Obama has been Forced by the NeoCON Media to have to do such a thing.
When there are Blanant National Security Threats given TV & Radio Shows. When such HERETICs and Extremeist as Hagee & Parsley are allowed to publicly spew not only hatred- but WAR PLANS!!!
Rev Wright was NOT a national and International Security Threat- These Vile men ARE!!! They not only Preach their Poison they enlist Gov’t officials who can make their stratedgies come to life. ‘End Of Day’ers’ have been around forever, bu tnever with the influence and affliations these VERY dangerous Men have accomplished. Hagee’s plan requires a ‘Pre-emptive Strike On Iran’ How many Politicians have been regurgitating that Idea? How many have the ability to make it happen Whether or not WE agree???
Anyone who has been conscious, or can read a book KNOWS 9/11 was an accumulation of a reaction to the Continued interference and reliance on M.E. Oil. WE WANTED OFF THEIR OIL FROM THE ‘70’s!!!!!! The targets were the MIC’s- NOT US but those who have USED US as their camoflague and Ultimately their Human Shields. It was NOT US they were aiming For - Innocent Bystanders.The MIC palced US in Harms Way as a result of their Unethical and immoral Business Practices! It was their ‘Chickens’.As for AIDS Reagan intentionally allowed the disease to reach epidemic proportion by ACTIVELY Ignoring It!!!What is worse inventing a ‘moster’ or aloowing it to spread it’s devastating effects????A Crime against Humanity.As for the lastest Priest at Trinity. first he’s a Catholic, second he just got there and Most Importatnly If Hillary had not conducted her self Like a ‘Special Priviledged’ Candidate by Dragging out the Gender Card and milk it for all it was worth- no one would have said it!.She has been a DISGRACE to th eWomen’s Movement, She has done Great harm to Our Long Struggle.The Damn red carpet was rolled out for her, she was give numerous ‘passes’ on her ‘Mis speaks’- BUT SHE TRIPPED HERSELF UP -so she uses Our Cause as an EXCUSE.this Pisses me Off to NO End!I ‘ve worked Too Hard for Too Long to get to play on a level playing field in a male dominated Profession (Horses) to have this woman require ME to have to Rebuke everything she says. “Special Privildeges’ Undermines OUR CAUSE- it’s reverse Sexism, it’s saying I am unable to compete with out some outside assistance.She has Not ‘Changed the rules’ she just Reversed them.
Any Woman who supports her tactics is not only doing a grave disservice to themselve bu tto other women and Their Daughters! You are asking to have everyone else change everything JUST so you can Play.This is NOT EQUAL RIGHTS!If she takes her Demands for special privileges to the conventional committee It will be only further Proof this Person Has NO integrity, since of Fair play or an ounce of consideration for anyone else by Her self!!!! Do We need another Ignorant, Arrogant Pig Headed Fool in the Presidency AGAIN???
Come On Ladies She’s USING US!!!!!!

I know what you mean i,Q. BUT..I’m also sure that this is the best thing that Obama and his family could have done, for themselves, the Community at Trinity, and the American people as well.

The ‘opposition’ will continue to divert from real issues, and they will continue to harass Obama and sabotage his campaign, not to mention the harrassment that they would continue to heap upon the members of the Church, and that’s just not helpful. The only thing that he could do, was to take that tool away from them, and leave that Church Community to do whatever they should be able to do in their own community, since our Constitution CLAIMS to provide for Freedom of Religion, and CLAIMS that it should not maintain any connection with the “State”. Obama is now ‘the State’, and if those opposing him are so determined to ignore this very division, and to keep Trinity under a microscope in other to attempt to attribute anything that goes on there, as if Obama thinks it and says it himself, then the only choice was to make the separation abundantly clear.

I also very much appreciate that he made it a point to say that HIS FAITH is not determined by the church that he attends or is otherwise affiliated with. In fact, I’m thanking God for that, and I’m NOT AT ALL religious. Now of course I always offer that (the fact that I’m not at all religious) in conjunction with my firm commitment to the ideology that religion and spirituality are NOT the same, and that both faith and spirituality do not require religion as a necessary component. A designated church structure isn’t necessary either. Yes, it’s fine that there are churches in communities, since living ones faith and spirituality can obviously be accomplished best from an organized nucleus, that serves the community…something that Trinity does very well. (or has in the past). However, we don’t need a religious affiliation in order to accomplish that.

Meantime, this takes Trinity out of the fish bowl, and allows them to get back to being the Community Organization that they are. If they wanna have Pflegger, or Jeremiah Wright, or anybody else talk to them in THEIR CHURCH, they should be able to do that, and Obama shouldn’t have to be automatically associated with everything that comes out of their mouths, when it’s not HIM saying it. That is even more significant in light of the fact that what these minister’s are saying, (whether they are visiting clergy or resident clergy) because most of the time, what they are saying WITHIN THAT COMMUNITY, generally HAS a component of TRUTH!

In this case, it is apparent to more than just Michael Pflegger, that Hillary DOES have some sense of ‘entitlement’! Whether or not it’s because she’s white is a matter for those who discuss those things, (White Skin Privilege is a big topic in the academics of the Social Sciences). But STILL, since he’s hardly the only person to suggest this, (which was the same thing with Jeremiah Wright), why should the Community at Trinity, or Obama by association, come under such attack?

Well, they shouldn’t of course, but we know that as long as Obama remains associated with the church, they WILL, and so will he be attacked based on anything that happens in that church, regardless of whether or not it’s anybody else’s business.

So, the only real sacrifices being made here, are by Obama and his family, (in having to give up their long term association with the members of their Church Community) and I’m sure they will survive. They haven’t been ‘abandoned’ by those who love them, and if anything, we can consider it their gift to the rest of us, if that’s what it’s gonna take to get the assholes off of his back, so that we can pay attention to the needs of the entire US community, and get him elected.

i’m all in favor of less religion, but this isn’t exactly what i had in mind.

“...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
—United States Constitution Article VI, section 3