I think you need a nap.

home schooling; the breeding ground for mindless little KKKristofascists.

Quote: “There must must have been something better than letter grades- such as you know it or you don’t know it, and come back when you do know it. Is there such thing as getting a ‘B’ grade on an airplane design at Boeing?”

Exactly.  More of a “proficiency system”, but that is supposedly what a grading system is….or is it?  Homeschooling is more readily able to meet proficiency since it can be adjusted to each student specifically rather than to the generalized group. 

Even at that, one needs to remember that students ARE LEARNING, so 100% proficiency in certain aspects of a given topic are not normally required until the the student is ready to move “up the ladder” so to speak.  At each rung a student is given more info than is needed to meet base proficiency, however meeting the base (at 100%) IS required to move to the next rung.  If this isn’t strictly adhered to a student is somewhat “stumbling around in the dark”.  They may be moving forward but not with any clear focus.  Your right, at that point 75% just isn’t going to cut it.

In this regard, homeschooling is openly adaptable since it is easily adjusted to all the different “rungs” of any given subject.  If you’re not a math wiz but you excel at writing, you’re allowed the flexibility to move to the top of the ladder on the one hand and still coherently step up on the other.

Catering to the “D” generation still, Paracelsus. Here is a guy who had something to do with planes - perhaps later this current segment will appear on a management blog - check the “Is you boss a moron?” clip http://60minutes.yahoo.com/segment/147/carl_icahn

In the old days, say the fifties, the child was sent to the library, and then asked to do some sort of report- oral or written. Teachers as a rule do not like out of grade(precocious) students. I felt their annoyance as a child, and I don’t think myself brilliant, just interested in Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn. The grade level system is non-sense. Grades are farcical too, because you either know it 100% or you don’t. Getting 75% (C grade)on a test isn’t going to rebuild an engine to good performance, or to bake a cake just right, or to play a pleasing tune on a piano. In those cases 75% just sucks. There must must have been something better than letter grades- such as you know it or you don’t know it, and come back when you do know it. Is there such thing as getting a ‘B’ grade on an airplane design at Boeing?

Quote: “The state is basically claiming the right to own your children’s education, and requiring you to provide your children to the state for indoctrination.”

Excellent point.  Does the state OWN my children simply because they are children?  Add to that the different educational opportunities that these children are “given” or more correctly which are withheld from children across the spectrum.  In an open and free society, who’s children are, our own children..?  Personally, I think we need to raise hell on this particular issue.

Thanks Cyrena, always knowing you to be a broad based critical thinker I was more than surprised by your initial comment.

But also your summation that CRITICAL REASONING needs to be taught is paramount.  This is something that is so important as to be without parallel.  My experience, especially in the area where I now live, is that this aspect of education is seriously absent.  Critical reasoning is without equal if one is to attain any serious educational achievement or perspective of reality.

We, as a society, also tend to endorse conformity rather than dissent.  When I was young I realized that I would never wholeheartedly conform, I didn’t even want to.  Mainly because I felt that all the fal-de-ral that I was given from every which way was questionable.  I didn’t think that everyone was necessarily wrong, I just couldn’t qualify that in fact they were right…...

Outraged,

Your outrage is perfectly valid and legitimate, and I can offer apologies to the extent that I KNOW that homeschooling is perfectly satisfactory in many circumstances, of which I PERSONALLY would be unaware.

I was speaking from my own experience, and here in California, and I can say in no uncertain terms, that large groups of citizens between the ages of 6-17 have been without schooling here in my area, for a very long time, and it is NOT a benefit to them.

I’m talking about a rate of 40% high school drop-outs, and those who have been ‘home-schooled’ through the 5th or 6th grade, may or may not be able to ‘catch-up’ once (if) they do enter the system. I don’t find that an advantage at all. And in reality, if you just sort of give it some thought, if you were hiring a person for a job –ANY job- and you had the choice between a person who had been only home schooled, and one that had received an accredited course of instruction over a period of 12 or so years, which are you most likely to choose?

As I consistently note, times change! There is more to an ‘education’ than what we learn from the books. If critical thinking really is something that matters to the parent or the student, than they should KNOW, that for much of the primary years, that has to be supplemented at home ANYWAY!

Now for the past 25 years, I’ve followed and participated in the education of my sister’s 3 kids, and a few others. They ALL have received equal amounts of what you call ‘homeschooling’ and a public (in their cases – charter type) school education. They could not have simply ‘gone to school’ and learned everything that they did, without the daily supplements from their parents and their other siblings. (like checking each other’s home work)

I attended (myself) a parochial school, and managed to do well –DESPITE the fact that it included a religious curriculum. For my sister, it was different, since my dad ended up snatching her out of Catholic school in the 5th grade, because the nuns were whacky.

I ALSO understand about the so-called ‘indoctrination’ that students are being subjected to. I see it as politics and politics only. Academic freedom should allow for students to learn anything they want, and should allow for exposure to all sides of any issue. I think there should be a choice in any public school, for students to participate or not participate in certain ‘state practices’ (the pledge, the anthem, etc) but I also see a certain neurosis to that as well. I said the thing every morning for 8 years and it didn’t turn me into some nationalist crazo. 12 years of education in a Catholic school only lead me in the direction of an agnostic belief system, because of my individual CRITICAL THINKING. In other words, I was no more ‘indoctrinated’ by the educational system than any ‘homeschooled’ person is likely to be ‘indoctrinated’ by those who are teaching them at home.  (probably less).

I agree whole-heartedly that the ‘testing’ system is a farce. But, I’ve been saying that for decades. It’s far worse now, because of the NCLB system that GW insists on, which in fact does the opposite. It leaves MANY children behind. The problem is that ‘home schooling’ alone isn’t the answer to that either.

So, there cannot be a ‘broad rule’ applied to every circumstance. But again, I see the results everyday, of what has become an overall decline in the US social infrastructure, because of the failure to update our citizens with knowledge that is needed for TODAY’S times, and for the future. This knowledge cannot be acquired from homeschooling alone, by people who haven’t learned it themselves.

MAYBE they can support themselves. The Quakers manage quite well; the Mormons don’t.  In a shared society, it becomes impossible, and that was my point about the separatism. I was arguing AGAINST, (not FOR) this social separatism.

This is a fascistic move without regard to basic rights of citizens to educate their own children any way they see fit. 

The basic constitutional restraints on the state, which has no right to dictate how children are educated (Amendment 9 for starters), is completely ignored.

The state is basically claiming the right to own your children’s education, and requiring you to provide your children to the state for indoctrination. 

The fact that a lot of you don’t see any problem here is telling in and of itself.

http://crimesofthestate.blogspot.com/

Cyrena:

Your quote: “For the most part, I see homeschooling as a definite disadvantage to the student and the society that they will eventually need to function in, but I also know that alternative schooling programs can be highly effective as well, IF THEY ARE instructed by a real teacher. Most of these current homeschoolers are in fact doing it based on religious and other weirdo ideologies. Still I’m trying to see both sides of this issue”

Your prejudice on the homeschooling issue is abominable.  You are making the assumption that in fact all publicly educated children are in fact able to adequately function socially.  They are not.  It’s that simple.  It doesn’t take a “credentialed teacher” to teach the ABC’s nor even computer programming.  To make the assumption that ALL homeschoolers do it for “weirdo” ideologies is ridiculous.  This would be to say that these same parents wouldn’t teach their children these “weirdo” ideologies if they were publicly educated.  Or that students in private religious schools are “weirdos”.  I may not agree with their religion but to go that far is without validity.  But what struck me most in your perspective was this comment:

“Holy Smoley wholey. Now ya know this wouldn’t be ALL THAT BAD, if these people STAYED ‘separate’ for the rest of their lives, and didn’t eventually attempt to blend into the larger society in order to gain employment or whatever.”

Do you really believe that home schooled students should stay “separate for the rest of their lives”.  I’m an atheist but I would never consider keeping any group of people “separate for the rest of their lives”.  That’s just wrong.

My son who WAS homeschooled, entered fourth grade.  He tested in every subject at the “entering of fifth grade” level.  Yet the teacher put him in the LOWEST reading group at the fourth grade level “because she was unsure of his attainment”..... code for, I’m prejudiced and I also can make myself “look” good, when later in the year he tests even higher.  I fought and fought with this teacher until FINALLY she advanced him to the highest reading group.  At the last teachers conference she “admitted” that had he been publicly schooled the year before they would have advanced him a grade, but since he was homeschooled she couldn’t “trust it”.  I asked her, trust what…your own TEST!  (of course I would also have matched my logic and intelligence against hers any day of the week, blind-folded and with one hand tied behind my back)

Parents are perfectly able to teach their own children and they don’t need to be credentialed.  That’s just more educational rhetoric and arrogance on the part of those educators who are insulted that parents can do the job just as well if not better.  This is especially true in the early grades.  Who won the national spelling bee, a homeschooler.  Edison’s mother took him out of school because she thought they weren’t doing a adequate job.  Ansel Adams was also homeschooled, we could go on.

I’ve also met those who “condemn” a homeschooled parent if their child is “only” an average student.  What a joke.  Why should homeschoolers HAVE to exceed public school statistics.  Not every student is as academically inclined as another might be.  So…I just include “average homeschooled students” in with the MILLIONS of publicly schooled AVERAGE students.  Not every homeschooled student is up to par, but neither is EVERY publicly schooled student.

^ obviously we are fodder for the cannons of our government to be fired in which ever direction and purpose they deem appropriate.  Well, what do you think?  I for one say “nuts”.

“A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare,” the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

I think the primary purpose of education is to develop talent. Somehow if I do have my child educated as the good judge wants, then my child will be a threat to the public welfare. I would be some kind of terrorist. It is in the best interest of the child to have an ethical system, but why must patriotism and loyalty be so emphasized? Perhaps a lobotomy would protect the public welfare. We are talking about the greater good over the the interests of one person. Don’t Bentham’s ideas on utility have their own hazards?

The phrase “loyalty to the state” has a truer ring to it in the original German. That the judge justified this fascist idea on the grounds of “protecting the public welfare” changes nothing. Every tyrant justifies his acts on grounds of the “public welfare.”

Even if the judge was quoting another judge from a similar, 1961 case, you should shudder at the concept that “a primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children good citizenship, PATRIOTISM, AND LOYALTY TO THE STATE….”

Don’t you get the creeps when government officials talk openly about indoctrinating little school children in “loyalty to the state?” (That is, loyalty to THEM!)

The whole idea that the State possesses some special wisdom that makes them most qualified to “educate” (that is, indoctrinate) young children, is odious.

These concepts came right out of the Prussian educational system of the 19th century, as explained by John Taylor Gatto.

I was using an analogy in my speaking of the Hindu caste system. I speak on many things by way of metaphor and comparison. I do not think my use of analogy should disqualify the merit of what I am trying to say, for systems of control are frequently copied and implemented from one society to another. Hindu methods of pedagogey had not gone unnoticed by the British aristocrats. At the height of the British raj in India, the lower classes of Britain were involved in the chartist movement of the 1840’s. The British system felt the threat so keenly that Buckingham Palace was deserted by the royal family, and it was guarded by infantry and cannon. The Bank of England was also guarded by cannonade. It would make sense for the intellectuals to inculcate principles of “citzenship” into the children in order to blunt rebelious individuality. Republican politics is a messy and drawn out affair, and it would be easier to build a consensus from the ground up. Start with the children.

It was remarked by British observers of Hindu schooling that the students seemed so compliant and obedient, and that they only interested themselves in the small piece of education given them without making any grand connections to a larger concept or scheme.

As to my readings of H.G. Wells, Bertrand Russell, and Aldous Huxley, the big idea is for the child not to be contaminated by old ideas of his parents. Homeschooling clearly violates this big idea.

I do not think the main point is to protect children from indoctrination by their parents into kooky religious ideas. What makes the state all that more virtuous and ethical than the parents in indoctrination through a forced monopoly? Do we really believe that individual adults know best for their children or do we think that experts like psychiatrists, teachers, and doctors deserve abolute obedience in the raising of our children? We are either free to act as informed individuals with constitutional rights or we are just eternal children who must do as bureaucrats tell us. Which is it?

By BlueEagle, March 8: “Our freedoms are being striped away gradually over time and forced state schooling is just another example….”

By Paracelsus, March 8:  “I question why government would want to use force to have children educated according to government regulation…. In a sense a parent’s children are more properly property of the state. California reserves the dictate to teach children in the manner it prescribes. The parents get the privilege of housing, feeding, and clothing the state’s property, but they get little say in shaping the talents, morals, and character of their own children….. the homeschooled throw a monkey wrench into the engineered dysgenic evolution of the lower classes…”

I think that the “Hindu caste system” originally had far more behind it than mere prejudice, Paracelsus, but you convey the point anyway. The issue is what American are going to do, though, not the downtrodden in India.

“Given me any child until they are seven…” is the only real chance for parents to instil their own values and cultural mores. After that, the Commander Terminator will instil his genes - by order, uhh!

Molesting those poor kids in that orphanage must have given him ideas…...!?!? But the real issue is obviously STATE CONTROL, not education or civil rights, the right to choose or even freedom of the individual.

In other words, you 30 million are now all deemed to be a pack of ‘lousy’ Mexican invaders and you’ll learn to do what you are told!!! The Governator (and his buddies in Washington) rules around here!

“The homeschooling movement never saw the case coming….” - you must be joking - never heard of MacArthur Park??? And ”...the appeals court said state law has been clear since at least 1953…” indicates clearly where Californians now stand -  right back in the McCarthyist 1950’s!!!

Part I
This is a surprise to me, since California is among those states (I don’t know how many others) where homeschooling has been legal, and it pretty much allows for a huge choice of options, requiring only that the teachers be accredited/credentialed) This doesn’t seem (at least to me) like a huge requirement, and it basically allows the parents to do what they want.

Unfortunately, (IMO) we see that many DO in fact fall under the radar by skirting the laws or loopholes. (in this case, signing themselves up as an actual school, and enrolling only THEIR OWN children, and not bothering with a credentialed instructor). 

For the most part, I see homeschooling as a definite disadvantage to the student and the society that they will eventually need to function in, but I also know that alternative schooling programs can be highly effective as well, IF THEY ARE instructed by a real teacher. Most of these current homeschoolers are in fact doing it based on religious and other weirdo ideologies. Still I’m trying to see both sides of this issue.

So, when Paolo made this comment, (about the judges ruling) I and I had to admit that it did have that ominous sound to it. Paolo writes:
•  “The judge in this hideous ruling (details can be read in articles by Steven Greenhut at lewrockwell.com) actually said that the main purpose of schooling is to create “good citizens” who are “loyal to the state.” “
And then he says something to the effect that it sounds like something straight out of Hitler’s regime, and he does in fact have a point. It DOES sound like something out of a totalitarian/fascist regime, (which is what we have in our federal system here) in which the interests of the population are always subjected to the interests of the State and the State’s ideology, whatever that happens to be. (Nazism, Communism, etc).
EXCEPT, I decided to read it myself, and well…it just isn’t quite like its put forth here. When we read the whole thing, we understand it in the context in which it was intended. (as the language of a legal decision based on precedent and reason)
•  “A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare,” the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

Not QUITE the way Paolo paraphrased it, and in legal terms of precedent, (which is how judges make decisions in the US legal system) the judge was referencing an earlier case. Very, very, different when we look at the full language, which is exactly what the law is about.

Part II
And that brings me to an even greater irony; the landmark decisions that brought us the civil rights case on Brown v Board of Education.  What an irony this is to the landmark decisions and the civil rights cases that lead to that decision. Specifically the one in Texas, (I’ll have to get the number) where it was decided that just providing similar facilities (a secluded desk in the corner of the room for the black student) did NOT amount to ‘equal’ because SEPERATE can NEVER be EQUAL. The student gains as much from the participation and interaction with other members of the society as they do from the actual course material.

And here we are, just over 50 years later, having this basically same argument, because now people are rebelling for the ‘freedom’ to be SEPARATE! Now ain’t that a bitch? Meantime, we’ve STILL got millions of kids, (mostly of color, or just poor) who would give ANYTHING for the opportunity to attend a public (or even private) school, and have access to teachers, and books, and all of the other resources that allow for some enlightenment, and the collection of information that will assist them in their lives. And, we’ve got these OTHER folks rebelling against the same, saying : “. NO! NO! We wanna STAY STUPID! We don’t wanna ‘mix’ with those ‘other’ people, or have our children ‘influenced’ by some secular teacher or other students who don’t believe the same bullshit that we believe.”

We wanna be like the Branch Davidians, and their David Koresh. HE did all of the school teaching in THEIR compound. We want the freedom to be just as stupid and backwards as our ancestors were before the Enlightenment. And we SURE don’t need no stinkin’ credentialed person to teach us! So THERE!

Holy Smoley wholey. Now ya know this wouldn’t be ALL THAT BAD, if these people STAYED ‘separate’ for the rest of their lives, and didn’t eventually attempt to blend into the larger society in order to gain employment or whatever. But, it never works out that way. Eventually they’ll wind up in some corporation or other service job, upon with the public depends, and they’ll have these weird ideas, (like kiwis are monkey’s eggs) and they won’t be able to tell time or do weight measurements, or even know their own asses from a hole in the ground. They’ll have already been conditioned to know ONLY that which can be memorized from the Bible, and therefore unable to engage in any kind of standard social interactions with any one with a broad education or exposure to the real world.

And, they call this ‘freedom’. Even the hippies of my own day had a better grasp on things. We might have been a bit rebellious but we weren’t particularly anxious to avoid all reality. (well, the Charlie Manson gang might have been an exception.)

Ok…back to my public education. Thank God for it.

Since the issue was one of the children’s welfare then it should have been handled from that perspective and that perspective only.  There isn’t any reason that they couldn’t have protected the child with the complaint IF there were reasons to find validity to his statements.  To turn this into a homeschooling issue was a tactic.

The plethora of homeschooling has so many facets it’s next to impossible to claim a single one as THE reason parents do it.  There are benefits as well as drawbacks.  Some factors which it seems are all too often omitted from the discussion is the fact that not all school districts are the same, schools in the same district can be markedly different, teachers are either mediocre or outstanding, interested or jaded.  I’ve always found it startling how issues with educators in the schools, and they’re different everywhere, is conveniently excluded from the homeschooling debate.  As if it’s “understood” children WILL have “an education” at the end of their senior year.

To assume each and every teacher is doing an good job is not only a stretch, it’s an outright lie.  Sometimes it’s doesn’t have anything to do with the teacher but the administration of the particular school.  We could go on and on.

Sounds like some nutcase DA or something with a penchant for power wants to “enforce the law”.  What a joke.  What are they going to do round up all those evil criminal parents and children?!  They ought to be ashamed of themselves for being such wossies, whoa..real “tough on crime” there.  Assholes. (Did you ever notice how these types NEVER go after dangerous people just pot smokers, drunks and now parents and children…)

We had that happen here in Wisconsin with a DA who decided to “get tough” on parents who didn’t get their child/ren immunized.  Which, BTW is LEGAL in WI you just sign a waiver.  He literally sent out cops and arrested parents (handcuffs and all) while their children were at school.  Talk about public outrage…. wow.. were people pissed, me too.  Anyway, a couple of years later he gets caught witholding evidence which might have proved innocence from defendants in several trials… the crooked son of a bitch.

Correction

The fact some parents want to school their children with some religious background does not denigrate their cause.

The very fact that the CA school system is persecuting homeschoolers does not require any effort at inference. The system is cracking down on free thought. The fact some parents want to school their children with some religious background does denigrate their cause. It is a matter of free choice and conscience.

The camel’s back needn’t break…consciousness rises as systems fall…It is good to nourish this thought.

........We strive on…..

Yes, and, at the risk of a hurricane I add, with the voice of great experience and study…Waldorf Education.

Thank you for this intelligent post.

.....A Brilliant Analysis!....

to which I add, with all possible angles included:

......As We Think, So We Become…..

Every case I’m aware of where parents home school their children has something to do with religious underpinnings. The comments I read here try too hard to infer some subversive motives to the public school systems. I doubt seriously that this is the case. Most of these families are paranoid that their children won’t grow up to think just like they do.

What happened to freedom in this country? If you ask people on the street if they are free, most will say yes. As Goethe said, “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.”

Our freedoms are being striped away gradually over time and forced state schooling is just another example. Why do they want to force the next generation into the schools? You can find the answer in this book: http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com

Put a frog into boiling water and he will jump right out. Put a frog into cold water and turn the temperature up slowly and the frog will soon die from the heat. Gradualism is their tactic. The question remains… what will be the straw that will break the camel’s back.

The judge in this hideous ruling (details can be read in articles by Steven Greenhut at lewrockwell.com) actually said that the main purpose of schooling is to create “good citizens” who are “loyal to the state.”

Adolph Hitler could not have said it better.

Check out the writings of John Taylor Gatto, who was Teacher of the Year in both NYC and NY State, before he realized that, as a teacher in a corrupt institution, he was causing more harm than good. Then, he quit and started writing.

Gatto researched the history of American schooling and found that it is fundamentally modeled after the Prussian schools of the 19th century, whose goal was to create “good citizens” who were “loyal to the State,” and who would display unquestioning obedience to authority. The most prominent 20th century corporate fascists (Henry Ford and Andrew Carnegie, for example), wanted to carry this a step further, creating a permanent class of workers who would obey orders and perform tasks of moderate difficulty. In their view, TOO MUCH INTELLECTUAL DEVELOPMENT was a bad thing that would make workers dissatisfied with their subservient role in society. Thus we get the Prussian-modeled system in which children are taught a few basic ideas in a 50-minute class, then march to the next class at the sound of a bell (much like workers in a factory).

Home schooling is, in my view, the last best hope for a new American revolution. The establishment of course wants to shut down this source of independent thought.

At one time the People were thought of as competent, autonomus individuals, and it was government that was as distrusted as a raging drunk. I question why government would want to use force to have children educated according to government regulation. This is no small matter. Modern Germany uses an anti-homeschooling laws originating from Nazi Germany. In a sense a parent’s children are more properly property of the state. California reserves the dictate to teach children in the manner it prescribes. The parents get the privilege of housing, feeding, and clothing the state’s property, but they get little say in shaping the talents, morals, and character of their own children. The state in Hegelian fashion monoplizes the child as an integral, organic part of society at large. The problem for the state is that homeschooled children are unpredictable and nonconformist units of human resources. The monopolisitc mercantile system cannot scientificly uses these children as inputs. Such children cannot guarantee profitibility to the investor class. Also the homeschooled throw a monkey wrench into the engineered dysgenic evolution of the lower classes. Imagine what would have happened to the Hindu caste system if the untouchables en masse had access to Quaker schools in the 17th century. I doubt India would have remained long enchained to the British East India Company.