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Ear to the Ground

Scores Killed in Israeli Attacks on Gaza

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Posted on Mar 1, 2008
Gaza violence
AP photo / Adel Hana

A Palestinian medic evacuates an injured child following an Israeli airstrike in Gaza City on Saturday.

Attacks by Israeli forces killed more than 70 Palestinians on Saturday as fighting intensified in northern Gaza, prompting Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to call the incursion “more than a holocaust.” Abbas made the comment in response to Israeli Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai’s warning Friday that Palestinians “are bringing upon themselves a greater Shoah” with their ramped-up rocket fire.

The number of civilian casualties, as well as the overall death toll, rose throughout the day and varied according to the source. Two Israeli soldiers were killed and seven were wounded, the Israeli military reported. Below, we’ve assembled a short list of links to sources offering varying viewpoints, opinions and estimates as of Saturday afternoon.

Update 1: The BBC now puts the death toll at roughly 100 people.

Update 2: Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has broken off contact with Israel over the attacks.

Update 3: The Israeli military says it has withdrawn most of its troops from Northern Gaza.


According to The New York Times, “Half the dead were reported to be Hamas gunmen or those belonging to affiliated groups like Islamic Jihad. But as many as 19 Palestinian civilians also died in the heavily populated area, including four children, according to Dr. Moawiya Hassanain of the Gazan Health Ministry.”

The online English-language version of Israel’s Haaretz newspaper reported that 61 Palestinians had died on Saturday [the New York Times story said “at least 46 people” were killed]. Haaretz said also that “at least 29 [Palestinian] civilians” were among the dead.

The right-leaning Jerusalem Post on Saturday offered its own take, evidenced by the Post lead: “Two IDF [Israel Defense Forces] soldiers were killed and five others wounded [Saturday] during a military operation meant to combat the ongoing Palestinian rocket fire on Israeli cities in the western Negev.”

WAFA, the Palestine News Agency, kept tabs on the day’s reports on its news site, telling readers at one point that “at least 81 citizens were killed” since this latest round of violence erupted Wednesday. It also reported Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’ call for international protection for the Palestinian people” and his pronouncement that the attacks constitute “more than a holocaust.”

According to this story by The International Middle East Media Center, an independent media center developed by Palestinian and international journalists, “Palestinian medical sources reported that the death toll in the Gaza Strip stood at 56 by Saturday night.”

The Palestinian/Israeli Alternative Information Center, a “joint Palestinian-Israeli activist organization,” issued this “Joint Statement Against the Israeli Airstrikes on the Gaza Strip,” signed by Israeli, Palestinian, Scandinavian and European organizations, on Saturday.

 

 

 

 



 

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 24, 2008 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment

So you are saying essentially that non-Semetic Russian Jews have a right to kill Semetic Arabs, then, Lee???

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By PatrickHenry, March 22, 2008 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

Good for them and revisonist history.

THIS IS AMERICA!

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By Lee, March 22, 2008 at 10:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

1. ISRAEL BECAME A STATE IN 1312 B.C., TWO MILLENNIA BEFORE ISLAM;

2. ARAB REFUGEES FROM ISRAEL BEGAN CALLING THEMSELVES “PALESTINIANS”
IN 1967, TWO DECADES AFTER (MODERN) ISRAELI STATEHOOD;

3. AFTER CONQUERING THE LAND IN 1272 B.C., JEWS RULED IT FOR A
THOUSAND YEARS AND MAINTAINED A CONTINUOUS PRESENCE THERE FOR 3,300
YEARS;

4. THE ONLY ARAB RULE FOLLOWING CONQUEST IN 633 B.C. LASTED JUST 22 YEARS;

5. FOR OVER 3,300 YEARS, JERUSALEM WAS THE JEWISH CAPITAL. IT WAS
NEVER THE CAPITAL OF ANY ARAB OR MUSLIM ENTITY. EVEN UNDER JORDANIAN
RULE, (EAST) JERUSALEM WAS NOT MADE THE CAPITAL, AND NO ARAB LEADER
CAME TO VISIT IT;

6. JERUSALEM IS MENTIONED OVER 700 TIMES IN THE BIBLE, BUT NOT ONCE IS
IT MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN;

7. KING DAVID FOUNDED JERUSALEM; MOHAMMED NEVER SET FOOT IN IT;

8. JEWS PRAY FACING JERUSALEM; MUSLIMS FACE MECCA. IF THEY ARE BETWEEN
THE TWO CITIES, MUSLIMS PRAY FACING MECCA, WITH THEIR BACKS TO
JERUSALEM;

9. IN 1948, ARAB LEADERS URGED THEIR PEOPLE TO LEAVE, PROMISING TO
CLEANSE THE LAND OF JEWISH PRESENCE. 68% OF THEM FLED WITHOUT EVER
SETTING EYES ON AN ISRAELI SOLDIER;

10. VIRTUALLY THE ENTIRE JEWISH POPULATION OF MUSLIM COUNTRIES HAD TO
FLEE AS THE RESULT OF VIOLENCE AND POGROMS;

11. SOME 630,000 ARABS LEFT ISRAEL IN 1948, WHILE CLOSE TO A MILLION
JEWS WERE FORCED TO LEAVE THE MUSLIM COUNTRIES;

12. IN SPITE OF THE VAST TERRITORIES AT THEIR DISPOSAL, ARAB REFUGESS
WERE DELIBERATELY PREVENTED FROM ASSIMILATING INTO THEIR HOST
COUNTRIES. OF 100 MILLION REFUGEES FOLLOWING WORLD WAR 2, THEY ARE THE
ONLY GROUP TO HAVE NEVER INTEGRATED WITH THEIR CORELIGIONISTS. MOST OF
THE JEWISH REFUGEES FROM EUROPE AND ARAB LANDS WERE SETTLED IN ISRAEL,
A COUNTRY NO LARGER THAN NEW JERSEY;

13. THERE ARE 22 MUSLIM COUNTRIES, NOT COUNTING PALESTINE. THERE IS
ONLY ONE JEWISH STATE. ARABS STARTED ALL FIVE WARS AGAINST ISRAEL, AND
LOST EVERY ONE OF THEM;

14. FATAH AND HAMAS CONSTITUTIONS STILL CALL FOR THE DESTRUCTION OF
ISRAEL. ISRAEL CEDED MOST OF THE WEST BANK AND ALL OF GAZA TO THE
PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, AND EVEN PROVIDED IT WITH ARMS;

15. DURING THE JORDANIAN OCCUPATION, JEWISH HOLY SITES WERE VANDALIZED
AND WERE OFF LIMITS TO JEWS. UNDER ISRAELI RULE, ALL MUSLIM AND
CHRISTIAN HOLY SITES ARE ACCESSIBLE TO ALL FAITHS;

16. OUT OF 175 UNITED NATIONS SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS UP TO 1990,
97 WERE AGAINST ISRAEL; OUT OF 690 GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTIONS, 429
WERE AGAINST ISRAEL;

18. THE U.N. WAS SILENT WHEN THE JORDANIANS DESTROYED 58 SYNAGOGUES IN
THE OLD CITY OF JERUSALEM. IT REMAINED SILENT WHILE JORDAN
SYSTEMATICALLY DESECRATED THE ANCIENT JEWISH CEMETERY ON THE MOUNT OF
OLIVES, AND IT REMAINED SILENT WHEN JORDAN ENFORCED APARTHEID LAWS
PREVENTING JEWS FROM ACCESSING THE TEMPLE MOUNT AND WESTERN WALL.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 9, 2008 at 12:35 am Link to this comment

“...I have updated my listing of ways that the Jewish supremacists are wrecking America..”

They’ve listed it for you under ‘achievements’ at http://www.aipac.org/about_AIPAC/default.asp

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By PatrickHenry, March 8, 2008 at 9:29 am Link to this comment

How Jewish Supremacism
Is Destroying America
By Patrick Grimm
3-7-8

I have updated my listing of ways that the Jewish supremacists are wrecking America. This list provides a good introduction to those neophytes just immersing themselves in the world of the anti-Zionist and anti-Jewish supremacist movement, and shows them the countless ways Jewish extremism negatively affects our country. It’s a quick and handy primer to enlighten and educate gentile people, preparing them for this noble struggle for survival they must choose to fight if they are truly desirous of having a future life upon this planet for their children and grandchildren.
 
All supremacism is unacceptable, however, supremacist Jewry is killing us; it is killing our soul, killing our spirit, killing our will, killing our pride and killing our nation. Its policies are killing our people. We must make this clear and present the ugly reality and the unpleasant truth in an easy-to-understand format. I believe this list is a good step in that direction.
 
More at:

http://www.rense.com/general81/how.htm

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By brewerstroupe, March 4, 2008 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

We shall have to agree to disagree until you can post a reference to a Palestinian named Yani. Happy to concede if you do.

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By brewerstroupe, March 4, 2008 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment

Before embarking on an academic career, Professor Karsh was an intelligence officer in the Israeli Defence Forces and is a mouth for hire from Benador Associates:

“In May 2006, Canada’s National Post ran a sensational story by Benador associates and Iranian exile Amir Taheri. The piece claimed that Iran’s government had passed a law requiring Jewish residents to wear a yellow insignia—reminiscent of the policies of Germany’s Nazi regime. The story was quickly debunked and the National Post apologized. Eleana Benador admitted that her PR firm had planted the piece.”
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Benador_Associates

Benador lists Richard Perle, Charles Krauthammer and Michael Ledeen.

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By brewerstroupe, March 4, 2008 at 7:03 pm Link to this comment

I encourage readers to read all sides of the debate and make up their own minds. Personally I cannot take Karsh seriously. For a start he is not an historian, his field is International relations and his allegations have been roundly defeated.

Karsh’s work on the Middle East has received criticism. In a review of Empires of the Sand A.B. Toth says:

“This is a polemical book whose authors have extended the intemperate and unbalanced rhetoric customarily employed by dogmatic partisans of the Arab Israeli conflict to the normally sedate and measured arena of nineteenth- and early twentieth-century Ottoman history.”
and:

“The book relies mainly on Western published sources and official British documents. But their use of even these sources is limited, since they actually ignore most of nineteenth-century history. Instead, the authors emphasize those episodes they feel support their interpretations.”

In an answer to Karsh’s criticism on the New Historians, Morris answered in an article of four lines:

“Efraim Karsh’s article is a mélange of distortions, half-truths, and plain lies that vividly demonstrates his profound ignorance of both the source material and the history of the Zionist-Arab conflict. It does not deserve serious attention or reply.”

Morris gave more extensive criticism in a review of Fabricating Israeli History:

“But this is Karsh’s way, to belabor minor points while completely ignoring, and hiding from his readers, the main pieces of evidence.”
and:

It is a measure of Karsh’s ignorance of what actually went on in the Middle East in 1948 that he writes (p. 97) of “the Arab attack on the newly-established State of Israel, in which Transjordan’s Arab Legion participated.” Quite simply, it did not. and Karsh employs his usual method of focusing on the one document that seems to uphold his argument-often while twisting its real purport-while simply ignoring the mass of documents that undercut it.”

According to Ian Lustick Ph.D. (University of California Berkeley), Karsh’s writing in “Fabricating Israeli History: the ‘New Historians’” is malevolent and the nature of his analysis is erratic and sloppy. He says the book is full of ‘howlers, contradictions and distortions’. Rustick indicates six instances in which Karsh gives quotes that say the very opposite of what Karsh tells his readers they say. As an example he gives a quote of Golda Meir that Karsh uses to sustain his argument that there was never an agreement between Abdullah of Transjordan and the Zionist leadership. In Karsh’s quote of Meir she explicitly writes about an agreement: ‘The meeting [in November 1947] was conducted on the basis that there was an arrangement and an understanding as to what both of us wanted and that our interests did not collide’.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efraim_Karsh

A debate between Pappe and Karsh can be viewed here:
http://skynews-clips.videoloungetv.com/public/skynews/latest/IsraelDebate_181006_0900.wmv

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By rowman, March 4, 2008 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment

Karsh (a professor of Mediterranean Studies at the University of London) presents the first full-length and detailed rebuttal to those Israeli scholars who call themselves the “new historians.” This group, whose ranks include Benny Morris, Ilan Pappé, and Avi Shlaim, seeks to expose Zionism as a rapacious movement and Israel as the actor that bears nearly full responsibility for the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Palestinian plight. Noting that others have critiqued the new historians’ ignoring important source materials, Karsh concentrates on proving that “the very documentation used by these self-styled champions of ‘truth and morality’ reveals a completely different picture from that which they have painted.”

Elaborating on the argument first made in his June 1996 article in the Middle East Quarterly, Karsh focuses on three main issues: David Ben-Gurion’s alleged endorsement of “transferring” Arabs out of the territory to become Israel, “collusion” between the Zionist movement and King ‘Abdallah of Jordan to snuff out a Palestinian state, and secret British support for this joint effort. To establish his case, Karsh digs deeply into the documentary record, even going so far as to interpret crossed-out sections in Ben-Gurion’s handwritten letters. That’s all vital to making his case, but Karsh’s key strength is the application of unprejudiced common sense to clarify issues clouded by the pseudo-scholarship of propagandists.

Many scholars have done the work Brewstroupe. Bet you never read the other side of the argument have you. You take fiction as fact and try to convince others of it. Fiction is Fiction. Try reading some fact for once.

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By rowman, March 4, 2008 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment

Brewstroupe:
Your research skills suck! Yani is Arabic for Means or meaning like. For aborigines its peace. It’s also a shortened form of other Arabic names.

You just can’t stand the fact that someone disagrees with you so you try to drum up some flaky conspiracy theory. Go catch a UFO!

The reason most people reply it to correct the false information you keep trying to put out.

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By PatrickHenry, March 4, 2008 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

Let our congresspeople know.  Its an election year, if they don’t hear you now they never will.

http://endtheoccupation.org/article.php?list=type&type=208

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By brewerstroupe, March 4, 2008 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

BTW.

I know of no instance of a Palestinian by the name of “Yani”.

Greeks and Israelis yes and one Indonesian but no Palestinian so far as my searches have revealed.

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By brewerstroupe, March 4, 2008 at 12:59 pm Link to this comment

The reason Howard/lilmamzer/ekdar posts his/their unsubstantiated nonsense is to consign embarassing facts to the bottom of the page (beyond the attention span of most who visit these pages) as quickly as possible. I therefore re-post.

Readers will note that he/they make no attempt to present substantiated rebuttals of the following:

.......some History courtesy of Professor Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian at Haifa University:

“I think there are 3 main myths that inform mainstream Israeli Jewish society. A lot of them still believe, because that’s the way they have been educated, that Palestine had been empty when the Jewish settlers came there in the late 19th century. There is still a feeling there that basically the Palestinian inhabitants of Palestine are either a nuisance or newcomers, or irrelevant. They are an obstacle, but not people with rights or indigenous rights.

The first myth is that Israel was fighting the whole of the Arab world in a kind of David and Goliath war. Although there was a lot of war rhetoric from the Arab side, very few Arab soldiers were sent into the battlefield, and actually for most of the war there was superiority on the side of the Israeli army. In fact one of the most important Arab armies, the Jordanian army, had colluded with the Israelis before the war to divide Palestine. So the first myth we undermine is the “few against many” - which is very important in the Israeli psyche, the Israeli mentality.

The second and most important myth is that the Palestinians left voluntarily. We found out that there was a systematic expulsion of Palestinians and an ethnic cleansing operation taking place. Even before the war ended, most of the deserted and evicted Palestinian villages were erased from the earth, and either turned into Jewish settlements or into fertile land. So by destroying the houses, in many ways Repatriation or Return became impossible, although the United Nations sanctioned such a Return as something that Israel should do. Some Palestinians, a small number, 25,000, no more, succeeded in smuggling their way back into Israel. So there was an actual policy that prevented Return, a few did return and were reunited with their families, but most of them could not.

We also found there had been willingness on the Arab side in general and on the Palestinian side in particular, to conclude some sort of an agreement with the Jewish State after the war, and it was the Israeli intransigence and inflexible position that failed the peace efforts after the 1948 war.

And the third myth concerns the Occupation. Very few Israelis would call it an Occupation at all. Very few relate to any of the Palestinian demands to end the Occupation, and most Israeli Jews would regard the war against them not as a war of liberation or a war against Occupation, but as part of the more general scheme by Arabs or Muslims in general to destroy the Jewish State.”

http://www.labournet.net/world/0209/pappe1.html

And here’s a map to make that History come alive:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6761/palastinianlan dloss8tz.gif

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By Yani, March 4, 2008 at 10:16 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What he says is real. They would have me murdered for these things I say. It is true but being true does not agree with the purpose to have war. They must lie, teach lies and keep repeating lies to make people have a reason for war. 
This is what I have been writing. The militants do not just attack Israel but also their own people. Many have left for fear of life. They have ruined many people. It is very terrible.
To the Americans here that support the militants, you do not understand. You do not hear the voices of the people that are not militants for fear. They murder anyone who does not agree with them. They have even been caught trying to blame Israel for their own murders!
You believe their lies because you hate Jews like they do. For what reason do you hate jews so much? Why would America believe militants? Look at what they have done to the people. Is this not proof? Why do you think this was good?
I will not write here anymore. You support them so you are them and think it is not a crime to have my family murdered because murder is now a custom for you!

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By Howard, March 4, 2008 at 5:15 am Link to this comment

You do not know what the word “apartheid” or “ethnic cleansing” mean. 

Israel has Arab citizens who vote, are members of the Knesset, are physicians, nurses, teachers, and are not restricted economically and are protected by the democratic rules of Israel. Some apartheid.

Only ethnic cleansing has been threatened by Hamas who wants to destroy and eradicate Israel and its citizns..  Its in their charter. And chanted continually in their mosques and schools. Defense of its country from attacks on it hardly consititute cleansing. Goodness gracious, man.

Hamas rules Gaza with iron fist. Why have they not built an infrastrucure and economic entities instead of tearing them down and depending on the world to feed them? 

Throwing aspersions at Israel does not make it true.

Israel left Gaza 2 years ago. Look at what they got. Makes you wonder why they should give up more land for peace if this is going to happen.

And where are the monied brothers of Egypt, Jordan, Ssudi Arabia, who could jump-start the economy of Gazans instead of just giving them lip-service.

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By PatrickHenry, March 4, 2008 at 4:18 am Link to this comment

Yeah Lil, Jewish lives being threatened by expert marksmen with the state of the art pop bottle rockets.  What a moron you are.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 4, 2008 at 4:02 am Link to this comment

Great, ekdar, but what are the Israelis using, uhh???

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By ekdar, March 4, 2008 at 3:59 am Link to this comment

Now the “Palestinian” Arab terrorsts are using Iranian-made Grad (upgraded Katyusha long-range artillery bombardment munitions) rockets, smuggled from Egypt-controlled Sinai.

Minor detail for you, I’m sure.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 4, 2008 at 3:31 am Link to this comment

Palestinians actually make their own rockets, Ostrogoth. there is nothing new about this, though…

“...the IDF senior command on Sunday recommended keeping up intensive military pressure on Hamas.

Anticipating the likelihood that such approval would be granted by the country’s political leadership, the army moved additional reinforcements to the area.It carried out several air strikes overnight east of Jabaliya, killing five more militants, medics and Hamas said. Hamas identified four of the slain militants as its own, and the fifth was named as a member of the Palestine Resistance Committees.

The army said it had targeted workshops involved in making rockets….” http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959984.html

People and Power - Rocket Men - 02 March 08 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO20xFuPdPU&feature=user

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By Ostrogoth, March 4, 2008 at 2:01 am Link to this comment

“‘The friggin Hamas terrorists shoot rockets, IRANIAN ROCKETS, into civilian towns in Isreal, and this site posts a story about Isreal’s “attack”, what a normal person would call self-defense.’”

Ummm, you think the LieDig editors are normal people? 

This far-left bigoted hate-site places no value on Jewsih lives except as targets for “Palestinian” Arab gunners.

-By ekdar, March 3 at 6:25 pm, from the thread “Scores Killed in Israeli Attacks on Gaza.”

The above post is typical of the kind of trash these racists like to spam on this forum. They shouldn’t be allowed to spam in support of Israeli apartheid and the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. The spammers cite Israeli “self-defense’ as justification for Israeli crimes against humanity. The Nazis also claimed self-defense to justify ethnic cleansing of Jews.

Our current batch of spammers have no respect for the facts or the truth and have only one objective: block rational debate on how to stop Israeli apartheid and ethnic cleansing. They shouldn’t be allowed to succeed.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 8:15 pm Link to this comment

“will take notice when concerned Americans start writing them, asking for a cut off of aid to Israel”

They’ve seen those letters and they don’t give a rat’s ass about them.

They LIKE Israel.  ~ Y A W N ~

Good night, baby. Don’t let the Jews scare you too much. MWAAAAAAH

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By PatrickHenry, March 3, 2008 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment

You remind me of a little kid…...“but he started it”.

Israel is just some punk bully nation on the block terrorizing its neighbors at will.  Until such time as it owns up to fair and honest negociations it will be a target no matter how many it kills.

Keep it up, kill some more innocents, the world is watching and perhaps some of the dumbfucks in congress will take notice when concerned Americans start writing them, asking for a cut off of aid to Israel.

New President and congress comming…gonna cut off alot those entrenched pro-Israel lobbiests.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment

“By PatrickHenry, March 3 at 6:38 pm
Re: Re: Cyrena, Social Scientist Bloviates Again

.....whoever you are, expose yourself as the arrogant zionist jew cult member that you are.  How else can you justify killing innocents and children? whether or not the Palestinians started it.

So why do you justify the wholesale slaughter of Israeli civilians as a matter of “Palestinian” Arab policy?

You cry foul when the Jews act to defend themselves, but at best say nothing when the “Palestinian” Arabs kill Jews?

Patrick Henry my ass. He spins in his grave right now.

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By Louise, March 3, 2008 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment

Nobody is in power in Gaza you twit!
Or hadn’t you noticed.

Probably not. Too busy celebrating the murders of children. Oh, did I mention in the name of God?

And it is a bit strange that you come to the defense of someone who decries Palestine as an alleged Palestinian.

I don’t know any “touchy” Jews. Just sensitive jews who are as sick of the killing and violence as I am, and wouldn’t live in Israel if you paid them too. But that is neither here nor there.

Someday, when the Israeli people get a handle on their government, maybe Israel will have an opportunity to make amends for what they have done to so many thousands of innocent Palestinian children. And the Palestinians will do penance for those they have killed. And when that day comes, maybe my Jewish friends will want to visit the holy land again.

And maybe someday, Israel may realize eliminating a problem by eliminating a population puts them in the SAME basket with the folks who killed so many of their ancestors. And maybe someday the horror on both sides will lead to cooler heads realizing killing by the numbers is not a game, and can only lead to self destruction.

Maybe someday. But that day is a long way off. As long as people like you, who claim to care about Israel, cheer on their self-destruction with your endless babble and hate.

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By PatrickHenry, March 3, 2008 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment

And you ekdar, lilmamzer or whoever you are, expose yourself as the arrogant zionist jew cult member that you are.  How else can you justify killing innocents and children? whether or not the Palestinians started it.

What a pitiful people run Israel.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

” The friggin Hamas terrorists shoot rockets, IRANIAN ROCKETS, into civilian towns in Isreal, and this site posts a story about Isreal’s “attack”, what a normal person would call self-defense.”

Ummm, you think the LieDig editors are normal people? smile

This far-left bigoted hate-site places no value on Jewsih lives except as targets for “Palestinian” Arab gunners.

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By cyrena, March 3, 2008 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment

I think I get what you mean by HANG

Here in the US, it was CUSTOMARY for a really long time, like…over a century. They called it LYNCHING then, and it still happens now, by other names. But, for the sake of simplicity, I’ll repeat your explanation…HANG…as in HANG BY THE NECK UNTIL DEAD.

Yep, I know the practice well. Study a little US history, and you’ll learn about it too. It’s been happening to black folks here for centuries.

Based on previous posts by Yani, I don’t much care what Fadel thinks should happen to him, though I must have missed the part where Fadel SPECIFICALLY says that it’s YANI that he thinks should hang.

Matter of fact, I don’t see that at all in his posts…

Here’s part of what he says about it, (this hanging) and it’s like one sentence out of the entire posts that references such…

•  “….but you and your family must be traitors of your people’s cause. And you should know that in universal customary law traitors are usually hanged in public.”…

Based on the rest of the post, it would appear that Fadel doesn’t believe that Yani is really a Palestinian, even though that’s what he claims to be. And, if Yani is pretending to be a Palestinian, and he’s really not, or he’s a collaborator, or whatever it is that they call the Palestinian Arabs that have worked with the Israelis in the past. (Can’t think of the word they used in the excellent film, “Paradise Now”.)

Anyway, there is no threat to this that I can interpret. It’s a statement of what happens to traitors, whether Yani is one or not.

He hasn’t so far passed the test though, so maybe he is…

I don’t know what “the test” is, because I don’t speak, read or understand Arabic. (with the exception a few words or phrases).

Apparently, neither does Yani. Kinda makes us wonder if there might not be some truth to what Fadel suspects. And, like I said, I’m familiar enough with posts from Yani as well as rowman, to know that they are most likely NOT inclined to the cause of the Palestinian people.

So, in so far as ‘exposure’ is concerned, maybe all of you (yani, rowman, and you included) have ‘exposed’ yourselves as Zionists, or Judeo-Christian Fundamentalists.

And let’s be very, very, very, clear on THAT group of crazies…THEY ARE SCARY AS HELL!!

They would do a lynching (or a thousand) quicker than you could figure out whatever Fadel has written as the test for Yani.

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By voice of truth, March 3, 2008 at 7:13 pm Link to this comment

“Palestinian militants fire rockets nearly daily at Sderot and other Israeli border towns near Gaza. But by reaching Ashkelon, a city of 120,000 people about 11 miles north of Gaza, Hamas raised the stakes considerably. It is one of the largest cities in southern Israel, home to Mediterranean beaches”

The friggin Hamas terrorists shoot rockets, IRANIAN ROCKETS, into civilian towns in Isreal, and this site posts a story about Isreal’s “attack”, what a normal person would call self-defense.

Incredible.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment

That’s HANG, as in hang by the neck until dead.

Get it now, Cyrena? Fadel Abdallah expressed his desire to see Yani executed by hanging simply because he disagrees with him, and cites “Palestinian” Arab “universal customary law” (whatever the fuck that is) for legal justification.

Oh, I’m sure you still don’t get it, Cyrena.

OK - one more time, just for you, Cyrena (Social Scientist):

Your pal Fadel Abdallah has exposed himslef as just another “Palestinian” Arab barbarian who can’t wait to dispense justice “Palestinian” Arab style.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment

By cyrena, March 3 at 5:02 pm

“CUSTOMARY” is the key word here ekdar. CUSTOMARY. I would agree that technically, ‘customary’ and universal don’t generally support each other in terms of legal language and universal concepts.

Both are examples of legal pluralism.

As we know, Saddam was hung. As we know, Chemical Ali is now scheduled for the same.

As we know, the US is one of the few civilized countries left, to indulge in capital punishment, and it is accepted as quick ‘legal’ here. The difference between hanging, and a firing squad, or the gas chamber, or the electric chair, or the lethal injection, or HANGING…is moot, though the US has engaged in all of those methods over the decades. The result is the same.

Now, is that universal or ‘customary’? Well, for the US, capital punishment is still ‘customary’ even though it’s certainly NOT ‘universal’. Europe has discarded it long ago. Most other nations have as well.

So, everything you put forth here is rhetoric.

I love it when you post.

At the end of your rambling, babbling, verbose nonsense, you write, “So, everything you put forth here is rhetoric.”

I mean, you can’t make this shit up.

Back to the issue at hand, which you never really got a handle on:

Fadel wants to hang Yani because he disagrees with Yani’s opinion, Cyrena.

What part of that didn’t you understand?

Or do you agree with Fadel????

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 6:21 pm Link to this comment

I guess Israel might use one of their nukes against the pop bottle rocketeers.

I’m getting the impression you secretly would like to see that happen.

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By PatrickHenry, March 3, 2008 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment

I guess Israel might use one of their nukes against the pop bottle rocketeers.

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By cyrena, March 3, 2008 at 6:02 pm Link to this comment

“CUSTOMARY” is the key word here ekdar. CUSTOMARY. I would agree that technically, ‘customary’ and universal don’t generally support each other in terms of legal language and universal concepts.

Both are examples of legal pluralism.

As we know, Saddam was hung. As we know, Chemical Ali is now scheduled for the same.

As we know, the US is one of the few civilized countries left, to indulge in capital punishment, and it is accepted as quick ‘legal’ here. The difference between hanging, and a firing squad, or the gas chamber, or the electric chair, or the lethal injection, or HANGING…is moot, though the US has engaged in all of those methods over the decades. The result is the same.

Now, is that universal or ‘customary’? Well, for the US, capital punishment is still ‘customary’ even though it’s certainly NOT ‘universal’. Europe has discarded it long ago. Most other nations have as well.

So, everything you put forth here is rhetoric.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment

Be careful what you wish for.

If the “Palestinian” Arabs managed to arm themselves to match the IDF, all bets are off and the Arabs would be crushed.

The IDF keeps pulling its punches and showing restraint no other nation would show.

If you change the balance of power, the Arab defeat in 1967 would pale by comparison. Don’t fuck with the IDF.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

“We in America are soaked in a Zionist propaganda bath, day in and day out.”

Are you miserable living in a Zionist-controlled society? I think you are, and I’m glad.

Better get used to it ‘cause it ain’t getting better for you.

Next time you drive by a synagogue, look at the sign hanging outside saying “We Support Israel In Her Fight For Peace And Security”.

I bet that just pisses you off. Yeah baby.

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By PatrickHenry, March 3, 2008 at 5:45 pm Link to this comment

I would have liked to see Johnathan Pollard hanged.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

” Granted, we don’t have some splinter group over the border lobbing rockets on us.”

Yeah, just some “splinter group”. It’s not like they’re, you know, IN POWER in Gaza or anything.

And what’s a few (thousand) rockets slamming indiscriminitely into civilian population centers?

Nothing to make any arrests over, that’s for sure. Those touchy, touchy Jews. Who gave them the right to defend themselves anyway?

God created Heaven, Earth, and morons like you Louise. There is a place for you in this big world, and it must be here at LieDig, because you sing the Party Line so well.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment

“And you should know that in universal customary law traitors are usually hanged in public.”

Universal “customary” law????

Hardly.

Maybe Islamist law (is that an oxymoron?), or “Palestinian” Arab law, or Saudi or Iranian theocratic law, but hardly universal.

And thank goodness for that.

You know very well that in Israel there is a robust anti-Zionist minority of people who are very vocal and demonstrative. Some are academics who are quoted ad infinitum on these pages, and some are journalists for established papers such as Haaretz - Amira Haas, for example. My point is that Israel tolerates dissent, in fact, it is cherished as is the freedom to express one’s opinion without fear of hanging as you would see done.

And that is the difference between the kind of “Palestinian” Arab terror regime you want to be a part of, and what most Americans abhor.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Have a look at Fadel Abdallah’s recent posts over at this Truthdig thread: “Obama and the Jews By Bill Boyarsky”.

He claims he’s a “social scientist” and wants to research pernicious Jewish influence in the world.

Sounds alot like The Protocols, doesn’t it?

Nice guy, this Fadel. “Palestine” must be so proud.

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By ekdar, March 3, 2008 at 3:37 pm Link to this comment

<i>” Of course Israel isn’t completely innocent in all this, but the simple, fundamental remains: until Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist, there can, by definition, be no peace.”<i>

Problem is only a very few and beleaguered commenters here believe that the Jews are entitled to self-determination in their homeland of Israel, and everyone else parrots the far-left (and Islamist) party line that Israel must be destroyed and the Jews disenfranchised.

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By rowman, March 3, 2008 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment

Threatening to have someone hanged and accusing them of being a traitor speaks volumes Fadel.

I have heard very similar accounts and have read land sale documents posted on other discussion boards that support Yani’s statements.

We see how you deal with your own people who do not agree with you. Your comments are highly inappropriate and should be reported but it is far better for the world to see how you really are.

Israel and the real Palestinians are the victims of your oppressive military campaign! Your “cause” is one based on lies, murder and hate.

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By Louise, March 3, 2008 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment

“Give Gaza back to the Egyptians. They ruled it until 1967.  They are their brothers and cousins.  Let them support them with food, electricity, and a government.  Hamas is unable to run Gaza.”

***

Howard, you know as well as I do Israel will not “give” Gaza back to Egypt. They are not attacking Palestine because they want peace in Gaza. They are attacking Palestinians because they want GAZA!

Duh ...

Oh, and about that food, electricity and don’t forget the water. First stealing someone’s food and electricity and water, then trying to convince the world that it is a great act of compassion to parcel a bit of it back to them hardly qualifies as support.

And as far as the government is concerned ... how would you feel if someone took everything you had away from you ... by force, because they didn’t like your government? Given the growing number of governments around the world who are not thrilled with what our government is doing, I think if that were acceptable policy, you’d be in a shit-load of trouble.

Oh never mind.

I’m sure anything logical that anyone points out to you will get lost in the wind tunnel between your ears.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Nicely explained , Yani !  Glad to hear this report of your experiences.

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By Fadel Abdallah, March 3, 2008 at 2:35 pm Link to this comment

Yani! You’re posing as a Palestinian, and there are two possible explanations for that: One, is that you’re a Zionist faking to be a Palestinian; two, that you might be of Palestinian background but you and your family must be traitors of your people’s cause. And you should know that in universal customary law traitors are usually hanged in public.

I am going to describe what you are using Arabic words in transcription form, I hope you can pass this little test:

Anta ibn shurmutah, kha’in wa-‘ameel wa anta ta’rifu maseer al-‘umala’, hal tafhamuni ya ibn al-qahbah?

If you are Palestinian as you claim try to translate what that means in English! This is your initial test!

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By Yani, March 3, 2008 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Zionist propaganda. You sound like Hamas!

I do not know what your media presents to you. I only comment on the writers here.

What I see is many against Israel but there is no real basis for most of what you say. It is lies. So maybe your media does not report what you want it to because it is not true and they know this.

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By Louise, March 3, 2008 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

Nobody likes terrorism. We have a lot of it here too!

Our first responders have been depleted. Our police forces have been depleted. We are treated like criminals if we fly. Or even express an honest opinion.

The drug problem and related home invasions and violence are at an all-time high. Kids are struggling to understand this respect for your elders thing, when our “elders” in government daily set an example of dishonesty and corruption. Deliberately ratchet up threats, to keep us living in fear.

But then I guess the same holds true for the governments in Israel and Palestine.

When those guns get pushed in your back just before the triggers pulled, or your house is bulldozed while you scramble trying to get the kids out, or the bombs are falling .. falling ... falling, I suspect that’s a level of fear, no stark terror few here can understand.

Granted, we don’t have some splinter group over the border lobbing rockets on us. But we don’t have sharp-shooters walling us in, then picking off our kids like they were so many ducks in the water. We also don’t have tanks from those sharp-shooters country driving through the guarded gate of that wall and blowing our houses up. Or tearing them down, or bulldozing them and the people they belong to into the ground.

I would like to say we also don’t arrest and lock up little kids so they can rot in prison, for no good reason, like Israel does. But sadly, since it has become politically expedient to target immigrants we now have sunk to the same level in that department.

We are arresting little kids and locking them up and letting them rot in prison, for no better reason than their parents are un-documented. Seems our administration has learned a lot from Israel’s example.

Or maybe it’s the other way around. Maybe when no one was paying attention really rotten folks from this side of the ocean were over there silently teaching them how to be legal terrorists and thugs, and killers.

If indeed you are a Palestinian, and if indeed you live unmolested surrounded by a wall, with tanks and bulldozers and trigger happy IDF roaming your street, then perhaps you need to go out and help some of those who have not been so fortunate.

And it might be a good idea to stop and ask yourself ... if Hamas ceased to exist tomorrow, would the wall come down? Would Israel suddenly want to integrate your people into a peaceful society? Would that happen?

You know as well as I do that would not happen. Hamas is not why they keep encroaching on what’s left of your land. Hamas is a convenient excuse for not giving any of it back. And Hamas is a really good excuse for trying to take it all!

Only when those who are comfortable make the decision to try to defend the victims is there any hope of turning the violence around. I suspect that you, like a lot of folks here are comfortable. Suffering perhaps, but not enough to step up and join the chorus of voices that says this genocide must stop!

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By Marshall, March 3, 2008 at 12:04 pm Link to this comment

Actually, I would say your position is as equally one sided as Howard’s.

Hamas’ job is to continue the conflict, not to end it or to improve the lives of the Palestinian people.  That’s why this conflict is in Gaza, not the west bank.  It’s why Hamas waged violence on the PLO to remove it from power.  It’s why Hamas continues to refuse Israel’s right to exist - a fact conveniently ignored by the left - and continues to fire rockets into Israel on a daily basis.  These are not the actions of a group attempting to negotiate peace; they are the actions of a militant group intent on prolonging war.

Of course Israel isn’t completely innocent in all this, but the simple, fundamental remains: until Hamas accepts Israel’s right to exist, there can, by definition, be no peace.

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By Ostrogoth, March 3, 2008 at 11:44 am Link to this comment

Howard, you keep repeating the same garbage over and over. You’re just spamming to discourage any meaningful discussion of the issues.

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By Yani, March 3, 2008 at 10:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Survivor of a regime… This is a lie from lies.

My father sold land to Jewish immigrants from Europe in 1944. This land was empty and useless to us. There were some people who lived on our land that had to move when the new land owners took possession. Many claim later that this was their land but this is not true. Its possession was to my family for generations. Many land owners like us sold to Jews. We were paid fairly for this land and it was ours to sell. None have tried to take back this agreement. It is only those who did not own the land but may have lived on it.

My family used the money from this sale to start businesses. We had peace with Jews. We employed many. We had built economic relationships and many benefit from this. Many were jealous that the Jews were able to turn useless land into something better. They became envious, a sin.

Today, Hamas and other militants have ruined our business. They have ruined economies and lives. Some of you think that all Palestinians support these militant battles. This is not true. Only a few do and those that could leave did.

Now they attack Jews and they cry when they attack back. Hamas is evil and not good Muslims just look at what they have caused. Not all America knows these things. They hear lies and repeat them as if they understand but it is more difficult.

Think of it this way. America bought land from Mexico. Some taken from war. If Mexico sent bombs into America demanding this land back that was sold and taken from war then what would you do? Imaging this for years and all Mexico now becomes militant. You have a big problem.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

What other nation would show the kind of restraint Israel has exhibited if its citizens were being bombarded and murdered? Israel is criticized for deciding to cut off supplies to Gaza, but, again, what other country would provide the enemy the material support to continue to make war against it?

The Palestinians have done a good job of manipulating public opinion to give the impression they are suffering from Israel’s policies, but we know that tens of millions of dollars continue to flow into the Gaza Strip, that the Palestinians who broke into Egypt spent money they were not supposed to have on supplies over the last few days, that Hamas has smuggled in large amounts of weaponry and that the leaders of Hamas are not suffering any deprivation.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 10:17 am Link to this comment

Hezballah attacked and killed Isrelis soldiers and kidnapped 2 of them on Israeli soil to start that war; not the other way around.

There is no aggression even now; what do you say about 2 years and 1900 rockets and mortars shot onto Israeli towns?  Anything?

If there was no instigation by Hamas there would be no response by Israel.

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By Ostrogoth, March 3, 2008 at 10:16 am Link to this comment

“It is the Arabs and hamas which is ethnically and cleansing and terrorizing Israel….Israel would be their best help if the Gazans let them.” -By Howard, March 3 at 7:58 am

Israel has sealed off Gaza and cut off their food, water, electricity, medical supplies and tax revenues, all because the Palestinians are resisting Israeli ethnic cleansing. You’re supporting crimes against humanity, Howard. Stop spamming this thread with your misrepresentations and distortions.

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By A Khokar, March 3, 2008 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

They say: Offence is the Best Form of Defence; Survival of Palestine is not viable till Palestinian posses some real deterring means to ward off the oppressive Israeli regime. Returning the Israeli aggression in equal coins is the only option. This world has to come forward to arm Palestinian with some potent arsenal that they at least come at par to certain degree to their rival Israel. This will also stop the ill aimed sporadic rockets firing by Palestinian which is jeopardising the lives of many Israelis.
Any one with an IQ above room temperature level understands that so called this Israelis un-proportional and provocative killing of Palestinian in the name of defensive actions against their retaliatory actions is just to keep the planned heat of anarchy in the Middle East…on. Israeli acts of savagery are there; because Palestinian happens to be the creed of the weakest of the weak.

These are the established fact of past that in recent ‘Lebanon war’; Israel defence forces had no Lebanese Armed Force deployed to oppose them except a weak invisible civil resistance called ‘Hezbollah’ found in Southern Lebanon’s border belt. Lebanon air space was also clear and void of any air resistance.

Availing a very free hand, Israeli Air force was able to play havoc. They destroyed most of the civilian infrastructure; Airports, all major bridges, public buildings, link roads, ports, petrol pumps and other civilian facilities; what ever it could was smashed. In thousand people died, almost all the casualties were the civilian.

But an odd resistance, on the Lebanon boarder, forced the most power full, invincible ground force in the Middle East to remain bodged down for weeks. Israel well wishers did articulate and allot more time to kill and mark it a success but it was in vain. Eventually Israeli Defence Forces returned bruised and bleeding under the safe cover of UN. A weak but resilient force of Hezbollah and their display of passion; has shown a new way to the tyrannized Arabs in particular and to all the resilient resistance movements around the world that nothing dares standing in the way of their will power and steadfastness.

The bruised Israeli after having destroyed any thing at will; kept on looking for a one single face saving ....word; ‘Victory’; at least to turn the tide of humiliation away from her so called ‘invincible forces’: but it could not.

War is fought between two opposing armed conventional forces. Killing of civilian, smashing their houses, public facilities, and slaughtering them on flimsy pretexts is a massacre, a cruelty and not a war.

This is a time for soul searching for Israel— and a very deep soul searching… lest all over the world; people may say that European were right to kill the cruel Jews then!
———————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 8:58 am Link to this comment

It is the Arabs and hamas which is ethnically and cleansing and terrorizing Israel.  On their tv and their schools they inculcate their peoples against the vile and hated enemy (Israelis)

  Look at a map. Surrounded by 23 Arabl lands who refuse, refuse for 60 years to make peace with Israel. Israel is not trying to keep anyone under their heel.  Utter nonsense.

  Israel would be their best help if the Gazans let them.  Arab states are not helping them but keeping the Gazans down. Down because they do NOT want to see a Pal state. Egypt and Jordan hinder and do not help solve the problem. They like and promote the current crisis.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 8:50 am Link to this comment

Peaceful coexistence has been REFUSED by the Arab states and Gazans.  Look at a map; tiny Israel wants peace.  Arabs do not want Israel to exist. Then or now.
  They have 23 Arab states and zillions of acreage and monies.  They want a 24th?  fine; but they refused a state when offered to them in ‘48; alongside Isreal.  Went to war and have been at war for 60 years.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 7:16 am Link to this comment

Give Gaza back to the Egyptians. They ruled it until 1967.  They are their brothers and cousins.  Let them support them with food, electricity, and a government.  Hamas is unable to run Gaza.

Israel is not occupying Gaza.  Pulled out 2 years ago and what have they got for it.  Rockets and missiles every day while militants hide behind the civilians.

Thousands of Gazans worked in Israel until militants bombed the crosing point and threatened with death anyone who worked in Israel.

Else give Gaza to Jordan.  It is 80% Pal’s already.

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By brewerstroupe, March 3, 2008 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

The weight of your argument is equivalent to the number of references given.

You will find that the facts I have given are supported by the following:
* Avi Shlaim, an Iraqi Jew and British Academy Research Professor at St. Antony’s College, Oxford.
* Benny Morris, Israel-born professor of history at Ben-Gurion University who received his doctorate from the University of Cambridge.
* Tom Segev Israeli-born, studied history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and received a doctorate in history from Boston University
* Ilan Pappe, also Israel-born whose doctorate is from Cambridge.

....to name a few. (I have left out Palestinian and Arab historians in deference to your obvious prejudices.)

You will also find them supported in “The Birth of Israel: Myths And Realities” (1987) by Simha Flapan, himself a Zionist who wrote:
“I want to make it clear that my belief in the moral justification and historical necessity of Zionism remains unaffected by my critical reappraisal of the Zionist leadership. The history of Zionism demonstrates the extent to which the urge to create a new society, embodying the universal values of democracy and social justice, was inherent in the Zionist movement and responsible for its progress in adverse conditions. Israel’s problem today lies in the disintegration of these values, due largely to the intoxication with military success and the belief that military superiority is a substitute for peace. Unless the liberal and progressive values of Zionism are restored and Palestinian rights to self-determination within a framework of peaceful coexistence are recognised, Israel’s search for peace is doomed to failure.”

Check ‘em.

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By Ostrogoth, March 3, 2008 at 6:23 am Link to this comment

“Expect Israel, having been attacked over and over again and not to protect its people?” By Howard, March 2 at 6:27 pm

No matter what you say to a Zionist or how many times you say it, he’ll always come back at you with the lame “self-defense” excuse. Israelis are ethnically cleansing and terrorizing Palestinians, Howard, not the other way around. Nazis claimed they were killing Jews in “self-defense.”

“And then imagine Detroit receiving rocketry from terrorists in Canada. Think the U.S. would wait more than 93 minutes? Before responding?” By Howard, March 2 at 6:27 pm

OK, good buddy, let’s imagine the US is occupying Canada, as well as bombing, terrorizing, and ethnically cleansing Canadians to give Americans more living space. So they’d be terrorists if they tried to defend themselves? Haha, so lame. And so cynical.

Remember Howard, my friend, right now the Palestinians have no effective defense against Israeli ethnic cleansing and terror, much like the situation of the Jews in WWII. Zionist racist supremacists think they can keep Palestinians under their heel indefinitely. They’re wrong.

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By Expat, March 3, 2008 at 6:20 am Link to this comment

^ was also empty and here for the conquesting, err, taking.  Of course, if there were no natives then there would be nothing to conquer.  That’s our history, right?  I mean that’s what I was taught in school.

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By jackpine savage, March 3, 2008 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

Thanks for the excerpt.  It is hard to believe that anyone still thinks Palestine was ever empty, but then again, not a few people believe that the world is only 6000 years old (in perpetuity).  And while it should be common knowledge that Israel founded/funded several organizations that are now considered terrorist menaces…it isn’t.  Then again, this is a nation that believes the Pilgrims came to America for religious freedom and to escape persecution.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 5:36 am Link to this comment

Pure nonsense.  Read someting else except Pal excuses.

On November 29, 1947, the United Nations voted to create a Jewish state and an Arab state in Palestine. Soon Israel will celebrate its 60th birthday and the Palestinians could be having one of their own if they had accepted the international community’s judgment that the just solution to the conflicting claims of Jews and Arabs in Palestine/Israel was the establishment of two states. Instead, the Arabs decided they would not accept or recognize a Jewish state in their midst and sought to destroy it. Five countries attacked Israel at that time. And have resisted every peaceful overture for all these years.

Few people besides historians know that the Arab states did not go to war in 1947-48 to create a Palestinian state. They were more interested in carving the territory up for themselves. Even the Palestinians expressed little enthusiasm for statehood at the time as most saw themselves more closely associated with Syria or what was then Transjordan than any independent state of Palestine.

As they did then, the Arab states do little today beyond give lip service to the idea of establishing a Palestinian state. A majority of Jordan’s population is Palestinian and it really is a Palestinian state, geographically and historically, as well as demographically. The Jordanians have consistently feared the establishment of a Palestinian state because of their recognition that the Palestinians were nearly as likely to turn their violence in the direction of Amman as they were to direct it at Tel Aviv.

Egypt has been in an ideal position to assist the Palestinians, but instead have primarily aided in the descent of the Palestinian Authority into chaos by refusing to prevent smuggling of money or arms across its border with Gaza. Consequently, Hamas has grown stronger and become a bigger threat to the mainstream Fatah party as well as to the Israelis.

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By Howard, March 3, 2008 at 5:22 am Link to this comment

There is a clear distinction between terrorist rocket attacks that target civilians and action in self defense.

Hamas is to be blamed.  Israel has shown extensive discretion in its self defense. Much more than we would have in the U.S. if one of our cities was targeted. We would not have hesitated for but a few moments.

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By Expat, March 3, 2008 at 5:10 am Link to this comment

^ I would like to thank you for hard work and information.  I have read most but not all of the information you have supplied. Kharma/blowback is sure to follow our historic stupidity.  We are already reaping our “rewards” in South America; viva Chavez!  Unfotunately we are just too stupid to learn and will continue to be blinded by the lust for power.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 3, 2008 at 1:53 am Link to this comment

Just surmising that your style is reminiscent of the blogger “drampage” in an anti-death penalty debate a few years back, BT. Unfortunately, none of it was ever archived (a form of censorship) http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2005/yax-503.htm

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 11:56 pm Link to this comment

Hi Doug.
“brewerstroupe (what a dumb name, uhh)....... “

It has a long and, possibly only to me, interesting history - nothing to do with the blogs.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 2, 2008 at 11:54 pm Link to this comment

I guess HAMAS was responsible for the invasion of European Jews in the 1940’s-50’s etc, too, ekdar…. and the resultant flight of two thirds of Arab Palestinian Christian + Moslem refugees, uhh?

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 2, 2008 at 11:49 pm Link to this comment

Is this a joke? The real reason is to make it look like the USA is being ‘responsible’ while actually doing nothing and merely looking on…..

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 2, 2008 at 11:42 pm Link to this comment

“The thing wrong with so many Israeli operations is that they try to be too sexy,” said former CIA official Vincent Cannestraro…

They’ve gotta get their kicks somehow,  brewerstroupe (what a dumb name, uhh).......

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 10:43 pm Link to this comment

Here’s some History courtesy of Professor Ilan Pappe, an Israeli historian at Haifa University:

“I think there are 3 main myths that inform mainstream Israeli Jewish society. A lot of them still believe, because that’s the way they have been educated, that Palestine had been empty when the Jewish settlers came there in the late 19th century. There is still a feeling there that basically the Palestinian inhabitants of Palestine are either a nuisance or newcomers, or irrelevant. They are an obstacle, but not people with rights or indigenous rights.

The first myth is that Israel was fighting the whole of the Arab world in a kind of David and Goliath war. Although there was a lot of war rhetoric from the Arab side, very few Arab soldiers were sent into the battlefield, and actually for most of the war there was superiority on the side of the Israeli army. In fact one of the most important Arab armies, the Jordanian army, had colluded with the Israelis before the war to divide Palestine. So the first myth we undermine is the “few against many” - which is very important in the Israeli psyche, the Israeli mentality.

The second and most important myth is that the Palestinians left voluntarily. We found out that there was a systematic expulsion of Palestinians and an ethnic cleansing operation taking place. Even before the war ended, most of the deserted and evicted Palestinian villages were erased from the earth, and either turned into Jewish settlements or into fertile land. So by destroying the houses, in many ways Repatriation or Return became impossible, although the United Nations sanctioned such a Return as something that Israel should do. Some Palestinians, a small number, 25,000, no more, succeeded in smuggling their way back into Israel. So there was an actual policy that prevented Return, a few did return and were reunited with their families, but most of them could not.

We also found there had been willingness on the Arab side in general and on the Palestinian side in particular, to conclude some sort of an agreement with the Jewish State after the war, and it was the Israeli intransigence and inflexible position that failed the peace efforts after the 1948 war.

And the third myth concerns the Occupation. Very few Israelis would call it an Occupation at all. Very few relate to any of the Palestinian demands to end the Occupation, and most Israeli Jews would regard the war against them not as a war of liberation or a war against Occupation, but as part of the more general scheme by Arabs or Muslims in general to destroy the Jewish State.”

http://www.labournet.net/world/0209/pappe1.html

And here’s a map to make that History come alive:

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6761/palastinianlandloss8tz.gif

Lots more if you’re interested Howard. What have you got?

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By cyrena, March 2, 2008 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

Brewerstroupe,

You do GREAT WORK!! Thanks for this.

I’d like to just repeat if I can, the absolute main to get from this, and you put it out there in the first sentence…

•  “….the rockets are fired AT and WITHIN occupied territory…”

That says the bulk of it right there. I had not even considered it from that perspective myself, because that’s how long it’s been, and that’s how much that arrogant Zionist mentality has dominated the discourse.

Another example (of how the ‘victims’ of the rockets are not ‘victims’) A gang of thugs breaks into your house with tons of weaponry, and you shoot back at them with whatever you’ve got. A few of them (the THIEVES/robbers/thugs/gangsters/ are injured/killed ON YOUR PROPERTY, while you try to defend yourself. They are NOT ‘victims’. They are the perpetrators of crimes against you, on your property, in your space.

Now, not only have these thugs broken into your home, they’ve brought a few of their kids along with them on the robbery/attack. Maybe even sent these kids and old folks in advance. Some of them are killed as well, on your property. How despicable is it, that these thugs would actually put their own innocents in harms way, by making them a part of the crime?

And so it is with Israel. They have put their own people in harms way, by forcing them to take part in the crime of the occupation. So if they are ‘victims’ (and one can say that any children would be) then they are VICTIMS of their own government who put them there.

A further example of this can be gleaned from the case (and I would have to look up the specifics) of the mother who lost her son in the attack on the USS Cole. He was one of the sailors killed in that attack. She sued the US government because the USS Cole was illegally docked at Yemen at the time of that attack. They were not supposed to be there, and had not filed that port on their plan/route, and did not have prior permission to be in the territorial waters of another sovereign state.  That case was decided in her favor, against the US government.

So yes, any impartial observer, such as any court of law, would see that these Israeli civilians are in fact victims of their own government. Thanks for the reminder/prompt.

Meantime, the same can be said of the IDF supposedly targeting Hamas. Hamas is the legitimately elected and represented government of the Palestinian people, and has been for two years now, since their election in 2006. For the IDF to target Hamas in Gaza, it is no different than any other foreign entity targeting any other government, on their own territory. Based on the LAW, it’s an act of war. In this case, it’s just a continuous act of war…

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment

Israel and Hamas may currently be locked in deadly combat, but, according to several current and former U.S. intelligence officials, beginning in the late 1970s, Tel Aviv gave direct and indirect financial aid to Hamas over a period of years.
Israel “aided Hamas directly—the Israelis wanted to use it as a counterbalance to the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization),” said Tony Cordesman, Middle East analyst for the Center for Strategic Studies.

Israel’s support for Hamas “was a direct attempt to divide and dilute support for a strong, secular PLO by using a competing religious alternative,” said a former senior CIA official.

According to ICT papers, Hamas was legally registered in Israel in 1978 by Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, the movement’s spiritual leader, as an Islamic Association by the name Al-Mujamma al Islami, which widened its base of supporters and sympathizers by religious propaganda and social work.

According to U.S. administration officials, funds for the movement came from the oil-producing states and directly and indirectly from Israel.

Israel was certainly funding the group at that time. One U.S. intelligence source who asked not to be named said that not only was Hamas being funded as a “counterweight” to the PLO, Israeli aid had another purpose: “To help identify and channel towards Israeli agents Hamas members who were dangerous terrorists.”

In addition, by infiltrating Hamas, Israeli informers could only listen to debates on policy and identify Hamas members who “were dangerous hard-liners,” the official said.

In the end, as Hamas set up a very comprehensive counterintelligence system, many collaborators with Israel were weeded out and shot. Violent acts of terrorism became the central tenet, and Hamas, unlike the PLO, was unwilling to compromise in any way with Israel, refusing to acquiesce in its very existence.

But even then, some in Israel saw some benefits to be had in trying to continue to give Hamas support: “The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the others, if they gained control, would refuse to have any part of the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place,” said a U.S. government official who asked not to be named.

“Israel would still be the only democracy in the region for the United States to deal with,” he said.

All of which disgusts some former U.S. intelligence officials.

“The thing wrong with so many Israeli operations is that they try to be too sexy,” said former CIA official Vincent Cannestraro.

According to former State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson, “the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism.”

“The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer.”

“They do more to incite and sustain terrorism than curb it,” he said.

From United Press International 06/18/02: Richard Sale.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment

Well said - why indeed?

HINT: The far-left editors of this blog believe that Jewish victims of Arab murders are not worth reporting on, but Jews fighting back and defending themselves are worth reporting on if they manage to kill their attackers.

Twisted? Yes.

Unfair? Absolutely.

Aberrant? Sadly not - it’s typical left-wing bigotry at play. Nothing new in that.

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 8:36 pm Link to this comment

Of course the analogy is nonsensical. It is valid however and this demonstrates the nonsensical nature of the statement: “The death of the civilians in Gaza is their own fault” which has the added distinction of being both barbaric and disgusting.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 8:33 pm Link to this comment

” Time for a cease fire and some real negociations.”

Tine for a decisive and crushing victory by the IDF and final and unconditional defeat and surrender by Hamas.

That’s how the US would play it out, at least. Just ask Colin Powell - that’s right out of his manual of arms.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment

” I would love the U.S. to pull the plug and boycott the Israeli government until they cease their bullying.”

The US will never do that because we realize that were the citizens of, say, San Diego or Yuma being bombarded by similar thousands of the same types of missiles coming from Mexico, the Marines would respond with hugely disproportionate firepower, far out-classing anything the Israelis have shown to this point. The US general public would demand no less.

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

How can a country which has no stated borders be called “proper”

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By Howard, March 2, 2008 at 8:23 pm Link to this comment

You may think they are ’ pop bottle rockets’; but they took off a 9 year old boys leg; killed a father of 4; and a dozen other killed in the last 18 months and injured hundreds.  Easy for you safe and sound to make light of it; but Israel was more than patient as Hamas kept trying to provoke them with over 2000 of these rockets in the last 19 months.

Now they’ve provoked Israel. I believe most rational people back them.

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By PatrickHenry, March 2, 2008 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

And all the while the Palestinians know Israel has the overwhelming air, armor and artillery firepower and they persist with firing their oversized pop bottle rockets. 

I would love the U.S. to pull the plug and boycott the Israeli government until they cease their bullying.

Time for a cease fire and some real negociations.

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By Louise, March 2, 2008 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

Not missing ... you just seem to not be able to understand what you read.

Meanwhile children are dying ... CHILDREN ARE DYING!

There are those who have to keep score. Palestine is responsible for the death of one Israeli child, therefore the Israelis MUST kill five Palestine children ... or some such.

Is that how it works? Is that how the barbarians did it?

Pathetic. Pathetic tunnel vision. Unable to grasp the big picture ... focus on one-up-man-ship. That cowardly counting of the mounting piles of dead children. Oh like that’s going to give you points.

Obviously you have never read any of my comments, or you would know I point out the injury and/or death of a child in Israel, usually before any “Israel first-ers” bother noticing.

Hates peculiar that way. The defenders of injustice rarely notice the victims of their injustice. Unfortunately there are just many, many more children being injured and killed in Palestine. I don’t control the numbers ... I wish I could. And they are all tragic and they are all unnecessary and they are all because stupid, selfish, greedy, bloodthirsty grown-ups play GOD!

Meanwhile children are dying ... CHILDREN ARE DYING!

Like you care.

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By Howard, March 2, 2008 at 7:27 pm Link to this comment

The rockets and mortars Hamas have been firing for 2 years are going into Israel proper; not ’ occupied territories’.  And now into Ashkelon, a city of 120,000 people. Expect Israel, having been attacked over and over again and not to protect its people?

Goodness gracioius, read a little history and look at a map. And then imagine Detroit receiving rocketry from terrorists in Canada. Think the U.S. would wait more than 93 minutes? Before responding ?

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By Louise, March 2, 2008 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

And I suggest you do not have a clue what the word FASCIST means, nincompoop!

If you did you would realize the absurdity of your position! You would remember the FASCIST Nations allied with the Nazis. You would remember their deliberate attempt to destroy entire societies right to live! You would realize in the name of preserving their perfect FASCIST government, they declared they had the God given right to kill those whom they determined were “different” and therefore a threat to that perfect FASCIST world.

But then who could expect someone locked in a tunnel to have anything other than tunnel vision?

You probably wont even be able to figure out what I’m talking about here!

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By PatrickHenry, March 2, 2008 at 6:55 pm Link to this comment

Go to Tel aviv or Jeruselum and get spit on.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 2, 2008 at 6:36 pm Link to this comment

The Sun shines on the fake state of Israel just as it shines upon Palestine. The darkness is merely in the hearts and minds of those who say “Its them or us”........

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment

Many folk have trouble with the firing of rockets as did I, until it was pointed out to me that the rockets are fired at and within occupied territory.

Furthermore, Israeli settlers on occupied land are complicit with a crime proscribed by the Fourth Geneva Convention, Article 49:

“The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”

When we consider that Israel is already grotesquely in breach of the convention (and nearly 100 U.N. Declarations) for it’s forcible transfer of the Palestinian population, it can be understood by an impartial observer that the victims of rockets are not entirely innocent. How much more culpable must they be in the eyes of people who once owned the land now populated illegally by recent immigrants and to which they are prohibited from returning?

As a friend pointed out to me, if the Japanese had occupied New Zealand during WWII, penned us Kiwis up in 11% of our former country and were now paying Japanese citizens to settle here, we would view those settlers as the enemy. Wherever we pointed our guns and missiles would be within our own land.

So it is for the Palestinians.

I often remember old Archie Bunker advising his son-in-law “Meathead” to engage a Jewish Lawyer. When you consider the Zionist ability to argue the logically tortured position that any Jew, born anywhere, has the right to live in Palestine yet no Palestinian may return to the land of his birth, I think it was probably sound advice. Not moral but useful.

Maybe there is a Law firm called Howard, lilmamzer and ekdar. If you happen to be on caught video tape shooting a liquor store owner, your fingerprints are on the gun and there’s blood all over your shirt, they might be the ones to hire. They won’t get you off but they’ll make enough disgusting noise to stave off your execution for a bit.

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By Douglas Chalmers, March 2, 2008 at 5:28 pm Link to this comment

HAMAS is a democratically-elected government, Howard, uhh.

Condoleeza Rice oversaw the bombing of Lebanon, another democracy, last year.

This year, again she will do nothing but watch and enjoy the suffering of the helpless….....

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By fresheir, March 2, 2008 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

Cost Benefit Analysis

If we have learned anything about the Middle East over the past 30 years, we have learned that it is a culture driven by intense hatred and revenge. 

In that context, I wonder if we, as citizens of the United States, have any idea of the kind of enmity that we have brought upon ourselves and on the heads of our children, as a result of our government’s continued unconditional and unbridled support of Israel.

Given the very high costs we have endured…and the costs that we are likely to bear in the future, especially if this weekend in Gaza is any indication, then it is high time for the US citizenry (and political leadership) to reevaluate the value proposition that presumably undergirds the United States’ support of Israel. 

What are the future costs?  And what is the United States getting in return – besides the revulsion and loathing of the US by Israel’s enemies, and the continued coercion, intimidation and perversion of the United States’ internal political system?

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By Fran, the upper east side limousine liberal, March 2, 2008 at 4:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Friends, to use a term from John McCain, although, personally, I think he sucks, Obama is not the great white hope or even the great black hope when it comes to solving Middle East Problems. In fact, he offers no hope at all. (PS—he’s an all-out Israel defender. Not that Clinton is any different) See below his message to our UN Ambassador, and former Enron/CIA agent, Mr Khalilzad:

Perhaps George Bush can save us? Here’s how. He can be a Nixon-like figure and solve the Middle East riddle. Bush, in this scenario, believe it or not, figures out how to accommodate the Israelis without screwing the Palestinians and visa versa (and saves his legacy).

Here’s how: Send a mixed NATO/Arab force to patrol the 1967 lines. End the creeping erasure of the Palestinians by the Israelis. (for some reason the Israelis think they are like the US who wiped out the Indians—can’t happen as Israel lives in a sea of 100 million Arabs. Sure, Israel tries to divide and conquer but the Arabs are not having it. Israel suddenly becomes humble—end of problem. Bush garners huge applause—no longer is his presidency the most disastrous in US history. Condi Rice becomes the new prime minister (the second female after the sainted Golda Meier) of Israel -she has converted to Judaism! Peace reigns and Handel, that anti-Semite, writes a new oratorio!

here’s another choice item from Senator Obama,

Dear Ambassador Khalilzad:

I understand that today the U.N. Security Council met regarding the situation in Gaza, and that a resolution or statement could be forthcoming from the Council in short order.

I urge you to ensure that the Security Council issue no statement and pass no resolution on this matter that does not fully condemn the rocket assault Hamas has been conducting on civilians in Southern Israel for over two years.

All of us are concerned about the impact of closed border crossings on Palestinian families. However, we have to understand why Israel is forced to do this. Gaza is governed by Hamas, which is a terrorist organization sworn to Israel’s destruction, and Israeli civilians are being bombarded by rockets on an almost daily basis. That is unacceptable and Israel has a right to respond while seeking to minimize any impact on civilians.

The Security Council should clearly and unequivocally condemn the rocket attacks against Israel, and should make clear that Israel has the right to defend itself against such actions. If it cannot bring itself to make these common sense points, I urge you to ensure that it does not speak at all.

Sincerely, Barak Obama United States Senator

A photocopy of the letter is here:

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n77/PJD123/ObamLet.jpg

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment

The purpose of the Warships is to deter Syria/Hezbollah/Iran.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 1:48 pm Link to this comment

” Of course ekdar doesn’t concern himself with the 56% of Palestinians who voted for other parties and the children who don’t vote at all.”

You have it wrong (and your 9-11 analogy is nonsensical). I do have concern for all innocent people trapped in dire and lethal circumstances. But the fact remains that Hamas is in control of Gaza and maintains the continuous missile barrage at Israeli population centers. That is indisputable. What is also indisputable is that the popularly-elected governmnet of Israel is obligated to resist the Hamas attacks in order to defend its citizens.

In your view, Hamas bears no responsibility for bringing Israeli counter-battery fire on Gaza, becasue that would necessarily shift your blame to Hamas for the misery of the Gazan civilians.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

” I’m terrorized just sitting here thinking about it. Gaza will be (is) a literal sitting duck for these war ships backing Israel.”

Are you seriously “terrorized” by the absurd notion that American navy vessels will open fire at Gaza?

Lady, what kind of drugs are you on?

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 1:29 pm Link to this comment

’ Israel is so repulsive, I bet it even hates itself.”

Projecting a bit here, I’m thinking…...

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By brewerstroupe, March 2, 2008 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment

By ekdar’s logic, the victims of 911 brought it on themselves by voting for the administration that supported the CIA base hidden in building 7 - a legitimate target if one adopts his perverted reasoning.

The message from the “beacon of democracy” in the Middle East is clear: Vote for the party we don’t like and we will kill you.

Of course ekdar doesn’t concern himself with the 56% of Palestinians who voted for other parties and the children who don’t vote at all.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

“And finally, if I hear one more nincompoop spout off about Islamic fascism, I may become violent. [just kidding wink]”

I suggest you go to a Starbucks in Saudi Arabia and sit at a table with a man and see what happens to you.

You will discover just one aspect of what is meant by “Islamic fascism”. I further suggest you do not become violent at that point, as it will only make your immediate situation that much worse.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article3399484.ece

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By Carole, March 2, 2008 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If you are into digging into the truth, then why isn’t your headline about the attacks on the Israelis who then had to defend themselves?  Why do you make it seem that the Israelis did this unprovoked - this is not the truth we look to you to report.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 1:04 pm Link to this comment

The only thing missing from your post is any reference to the Jewish children who are victims of Arab terrorism, as they are specifically sought out and marked for death, unlike the Arab children who are used as human shields by the Arab Gazan Hamas terrorists.

Rather a shame you cannot bring yourself to make that necessary distinction, Louise.

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By ekdar, March 2, 2008 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment

The death of the “civilians” in Gaza is their own fault. They are the ones that voted in Hamas whose explicit charter was to wage war on Israel. These civilians are as responsible for the rockets raining down on Israel as those who launch them. They have no right to expect to be spared when Israel defends itself. Even those that did not vote for Hamas are still supporting it passively if they remain in Gaza. They cannot expect any special dispensation from the collateral damage that accompanies all wars.

The only real innocents in Gaza are those who few that voted against Hamas and are actively engaged in fighting against it, probably as informants working with Israel. They would be similar to the French Resistance in WW2.

Israel’s greatest vice in fighting these wars is an excessive concern with civilian casualties to the point that it hinders their expeditious defeat of the enemy. Hamas and Hezbollah try to exploit this weakness and, unfortunately, too often they succeed in getting Israel to pull its punches.

Israel must make it perfectly clear that the responsibility for any civilian casualties lies solely with those that initiated the hostilities, i.e. Hamas

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By Kevin, March 2, 2008 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel is a terrorist state. The Palestinians are not innocent in all of this, but how long do we have to put up with all the killing? GW will no doubt be rewarded by his father Satin for supporting the carnage.

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By Howard, March 2, 2008 at 11:13 am Link to this comment

Those are the correct words.  Compared to an earlier title on a comment below.  Hamas only has to stop with the rockets….as they have successfuly got the response they wanted from Israel.  The world is not fooled.

Gazan Palestinians voted Hamas into office in Palestinian legislative elections in 2006. Similarly, Hamas could not have seized Gaza last year without at least the tacit support of a large segment of the local population. By what logic, then, can Gazans expect to be insulated from the consequences of a war being waged by Hamas on their behalf?

It is absurd to suggest that withholding supplies from Gaza is a form of collective punishment. The only people who are being targeted collectively are Israeli civilians in Sderot and other neighboring towns near Gaza who are subject to incessant rocket barrages.

It is also simply a flat-earth statement to say that Israel is an occupier of Gaza. Article 6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention on the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War states that a foreign power is only considered an occupier “to the extent that such Power exercises the functions of government in such territory.”

Yet Israel withdrew from 80% of Gaza in 1994 and the remaining 20% in 2005. Its writ no longer runs there, nor does it any longer maintain law and order in the territory. By no stretch of the imagination can Israel be said to be occupying it.

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By Louise, March 2, 2008 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

It is such a simple and obvious fact. The fact that so many can see, but can not understand.

When men take the name of God as their shield to gain and control, by any means necessary ... evil deeds always follow.

Politics, power, money, entitlement, greed, attack, plunder, steal and kill ... all because God says it’s OK.
Problem is, nobody has actually asked God!

But even were we able to ask God, which God would we ask? Israel’s God? Islam’s God? Christian’s God? Three Gods leading their “chosen” to annihilate the followers of those other two Gods. Aint belief in God just grand?

Yes I am being sarcastic. Obviously if there is a God, one three or a hundred ... if annihilation of mankind was their individual or collective goal, the world would have evaporated centuries ago! So lets put this whole issue in it’s proper perspective. Greedy people with a blood lust tend to use the “name” of God to justify their greed and blood-lust. Period.

So we who call ourselves Christians, and we who call ourselves Muslims and we who call ourselves Jews must all recognize ... we are all wrong, because we can not all be right. Any violence coming from any source, for any reason is violence all the same. We can debate who started it, but unless we are willing to settle on that and bring that group to justice to bring an end to the violence, we, like someone already said, are just spitting in the ocean.

Meanwhile children are dying ... CHILDREN ARE DYING!

Are we all comfortable with that guilt? If so, then the war in Iraq will continue till there are no children left. The attacks on Palestine will continue until there are no children left, and Israel’s inevitable self-destruction through blood-letting and greed will come possibly sooner than later. As will ours!

Where are the religious leaders of the world? Why are they silent? Obviously NONE OF THEM are hearing from God or this madness would stop! Frauds and Charlatans, one and all. Silent while their respective followers kill and steal and lie ... in their Gods name. And finally, if I hear one more nincompoop spout off about Islamic fascism, I may become violent. [just kidding wink]

Damn, sometimes I wish it were against the law to be stupid!

OK I know ... who would pick the Judge and Jury to convict on stupidity? A hopeless task.

Meanwhile, pass this around:

http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/israel/dontknow.htm

And this:

http://palestinefreevoice.blogspot.com/2008/03/gaza-strip-is-suffering-need-actions.html

And this:

http://www.rys2sense.com/anti-neocons/viewtopic.php?t=12152

And dont forget to scroll down and look at the maps!

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