It occurred to me - By Bella81, January 23: ”... if martial law is declared, there is no local/national/state military anymore to help us…... So if we take to the streets we will not be protected, let alone supported…. We’ll be staring into the guns of the hired mercenaries who don’t give a damn about my kid, my 96 year old mother in law, or anything else…”

Then KILL them if you have to, Bella81. If they are NOT loyal to their country, then take your country back!

Even the people and Buddhist monks of Burma don’t have that to put up with. They know it is their own military who is oppressing them.

Think about that….... its not worth living a life of slavery, uhh!

To answer your question, “what is the definition of winning this war?”

The biggest business on the face of the planet, apart from the pharmaceutical cabal, is the manufacture and sale of munitions. The major component of necessity for any manufacturing process is OIL. A big army needs very large pools from which to quench the thirst of their war machines.

An army can do anything but, sit on their bayonets. They need to either use them, or lose them; they thrive on conflict. The question to ask is: who will have the fortitude to go against the forces that have already been set into play, that being, the endless global war on terror, where evil lurks under every single unturned stone and any individual a potential enemy?

The reactionary forces will, NO DOUBT, manifest and rise to the challenge, as they always have. In this, the corporate oligarchs will meet their own reflection in a perpetual war, for a perpetual peace!

This self destructing mindset MUST be cracked.

The high Wisdom of any science is to: Know the Self. In this rest Understanding.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Nothing else better explains their vilification to the public mind, through the corporate lens.

purplewolf & bella81, good observation!

Bush, commander of massive force, has every right to his paranoia, for it reflects the paranoia inculcated through decades of predation, a deceptive U.S. Foreign Policy, whose Corporate ego-centric, emotionless bottom-line is of a greater and paramount concern than the well-being of the pillars supporting it. It demonizes those who don’t submit, inciting those minds it has managed to cage as it casts disparaging barbs of xenophobic hatred, and clutches onto its throne by force. I tell my friends, 9/11 did not happen in a vacuum, it was a result of this mindset. Like the imminent eruption of a festering boil, it was only a matter of time.

How do we, the public, make certain another such evidently psy-opps trick, masquerading as the needed infraction, does not foment and bring about those willful desires seeking to take that which they crave, throwing the world into the pandemonium of a flaming abyss? I praise the Iranian people for their steadfastness in maintaining a calm atmosphere, by not taking the poisoned bait! As they have thus far, I pray cool and calm heads continue to prevail! Force is not the answer! Force only breeds contempt. But, I am fearful, a frightened, timid rabbit, cowering in a corner, guns drawn upon it, stands not much of a chance. But, we all know and see who stands on the higher moral ground.

Don’t forget, the entire purpose of this misadventure was to maintain U.S. oil dollar supremacy. In the process, a sovereign was lynched, millions of people murdered and millions more caused to flee their homes and villages to seek refuge elsewhere. The question to ask is how long this effort in papering over a failed dream of empire can be sustained, before others holding a depreciating U.S. dollar begin to bail? We can thank congress for abdicating its responsibility in maintaining and controlling a sound coin of the realm, incapable of counterfeit, in favor of the currency manufacturers who now have a “Freedom of the Press.” As long as there are trees for pulp, and plenty of ink, the sky is the limit.

When in December of 2007, as Iran began selling oil in Euros, the Saudis silently cheered. No doubt, should their hearts desire follow a similar path, the response will be heard to the tune of ‘Bombs Bursting in Air’.

Please read:
The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse
http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html

This lopsided formula has been brewing for some time now, resulting in a nation that produces nothing of significance, other than munitions, enabling a corporate oligarchy, the empire, a rule through brutish force, as it itself luxuriates and washes its people in the bath-water of consumption, flowing from the taps of cheap labor everywhere, bloating a ballooning trade deficit which continues to mushroom out of control.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Now on todays latest news reports, this incident may have been the work of a prankster known as the “Filipino Monket.” Nice work accusing Iran immediately as the culprit before checking out the fact from the hyped fantasy of a warmongering childs pipe dream. Or as George does, destroy first, declare success and head out fabricating the next quagmire in whcih to drag America into.

How many times has the Pentagon or the Bush administration claimed something as actual fact only to later come forth with the excuse that perhaps they “jumped the gun” and might be wrong? The last 7 years have been filled with numerous incidents of false and imagined paranoia from the scared little cocaine cowboy crying wolf at everything out there. Does he have the Secret Service check under his bed every night to see if the boogie man is hiding under it, or maybe it’s in his closet, or behind a door?  And yet it remains as elusive as the location of the WMDs in Iraq that they knew where there, over there, here and somewhere else, in fact everywhere else but where we looked.

Remember what happened to that little boy? After enough lies and false accusations people ignored him. Even if he were to speak the truth, who would believe him? His track record for credibility has been extremely lacking on the honesty side.

AND YES DOUG, YOU WILL POINT OUT THAT THE WOLF FINALLY DID APPEAR,IN THE FAIRYTALE THAT IS. THAT’S WHAT THIS WHOLE WAR FIASCO HAS BEEN SINCE BEFORE THE 2000 ELECTION.* THE NEVERENDING WAR STORY BOOK OF FAIRYTALES.
* Bush started in the news media five months before the 2000 elections that war in Iraq was his top priority. Period. Well he kept that campaign promise now didn’t he.

Bush is still beating his war drum mantra while on his M.E. tour, trying to drum up support for attacking Iran. His latest attempt of getting the friends of the US (are there really any left, who will do so at their own expense?) to side with him in yet another war disaster. He wants another war so bad that he refuses to let common sense, actual facts and reality to enter into the picture. Also, when he does attack Iran, the evil plan of taking over the whole country with Dickie boy by his side (actual meaning-standing on Georgies head)the real Decider of what will happen to this country, once Martial Law is declared, will finally be achieved. Then tomorrow THE WORLD.

By mary, January 13 at 1:08 pm: “Again, where is the news media!!!”

#Truthdig - strange I see only Mary’s comment when I click on “Arrange comments by date” on this particular page.

Too bad that Bush’s “views” are that he is going to save the US$ by attacking Iran. Everyone wants to dump the US$ as a trading currency now including the oil exporters, not only Iran.

We all know what happened with Saddam and Iraq when he chose to accept other currencies for oil. But, its too late for that kind of game now. Still, an empire in desperate “straits” will resort to anything…..

Oh yes, the news media ia part of the problem, how foolish of me to think they might see this as a journalistic responsibility to the American people and our Democracy.  Instead we get seemingly hours of Sen Clinton’s emotional breakdown and Pres Clinton’s racists remarks, neither of which were even close to the actual events.

I’m afraid we will see the total collapse of the dollar, war in Iran, and no elections in November before these people wake up and figure out they will be living this nightmare with the rest of us.

Reason,

Not to change the subject from your excellent comments, and I hope I can possibly provide a few suggestions to some of them, (and your most important question about the definition of ‘winning’ this ‘war’)even as an ordinary American citizen myself. But first, I wanted to add this, which is relevant to not only your overall query, but to the subject of this so-called ‘provocation’ in the Persian Gulf.

If the piece doesn’t print out in it’s entirety, the link is provided. It actually answers your questions, though it may not be immediately apparent.

Provocation in the Strait of Hormuz
  By Marc Ash
  t r u t h o u t | Perspective
  Tuesday 08 January 2008

  Two separate news reports relying mostly on information provided by the Pentagon were picked up and disseminated by US mainstream media outlets Monday. The reports point to two separate instances involving US armed forces operating in the Persian Gulf and the Strait of Hormuz.
  The first, typified by The New York Times, “US Describes Confrontation With Iranian Boats,” and the second, tucked away from the features sections, “Navy Fighter Jets Crash in Persian Gulf,” reported by the Associated Press, are not connected directly in the reports, but bear consideration side-by-side nonetheless.
  The report in The Times, in fact, tells you everything you need to know, albeit in a conclusionless form. US Warships are in the Persian Gulf. The Strait of Hormuz, through which all warships must pass to enter the Gulf, is the same passage through which all oil-bearing ships must pass bringing oil to the US. And “Oil prices on world markets spiked briefly on the news, which was first reported by CNN.” That pretty much says it all.
  US Navy warships are parked a few miles off the coast of Iran. They are there, apparently, to protect oil shipping lanes into and out of the Persian Gulf. Tensions are mounting. If provocation is at issue, those facts must remain front and center. If Iranian warships ever made it as close to the American coastline as US warships now lie to Iranian shores, our military would in all likelihood attack them. Iran is not attacking our warships - parked on their doorstep.
  The US State Department last year warned Iran “not to interfere with US interests in the region.” What the State Department did not explain to the American people is what interests average Americans have in the region. The answer to that question is, likely none. That leads to the next question: whose interests is the American Navy protecting in the Persian Gulf? The owners of the oil tankers, apparently. The American people are the end consumers; we pay what’s marked on the pump. Bluntly stated, the United States Navy appears to be in the Persian Gulf to protect the interests of US-based oil businesses, not the interests of the American people. Incidentally, the second-largest deposits of oil in the world lie beneath the soil of Iraq, so the same formula applies there as well.
  Could Iranian forces sink an American ship a few miles off the Iranian coast? Yes, although it is highly unlikely that they would say beforehand, “I am coming at you, and you will explode in a few minutes.” Would such a sinking take the lives of many good American sailors? Yes, it would. Such a sinking and the attendant loss of life would affect the best interests of the American people. The American armed forces are the true interest of the American people. For too long, the American people have turned a blind eye to their interest: their service members. It’s time to bring our soldiers home and let the gas station mind its own business.
________________________________________
  You can send comments to Truthout Executive Director Marc Ash at: .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address).
———-
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010808J.shtml

Louise,

Here’s some validation for your earlier theory…or, somewhat…

“Filipino Monkey” May Be Behind Radio Threats, Ship Drivers Say
  By Andrew Scutro and David Brown
  The Navy Times

  Friday 11 January 2008

  The threatening radio transmission heard at the end of a video showing harassing maneuvers by Iranian patrol boats in the Strait of Hormuz may have come from a locally famous heckler known among ship drivers as the “Filipino Monkey.”

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011208C.shtml

So…Filipino Monkey did it. (maybe)

I am not a “conspiracy theorist” but I have noticed that violent attacks and subversion against U.S. interests in and around the Middle East are more numerous and diverse in the past few months. The Bush administration has promoted the theory that the “terrorist threat” is primarily one-dimensional, the terrorists lack the sophistication to destabilize U.S. economic interests, launch attacks in countries of strategic and diplomatic value to the U.S., and it allies. I firmly believe that the Bush administration is misleading U.S. citizens (and possibly themselves) about the abilities of the Taliban and Al Qaeda.
The Bush administration chose Iraq as a battleground but the Taliban and Al Qaeda are not cooperating in that choice. The Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters are not just fighters who plant “IED’s” or strap on bombs. I suggest it is quite possible they are much more intelligent and sophisticated in executing their over all plans, by diffusing their efforts all over the world in ways that do no allow the military and economic assets of the United States be effective.
I am an ordinary citizen with no training in the ways to wage war but it seems to me it is very plausible, that the Taliban and Al Queada are quite versed in most aspects of it. The Bush administration underestimates the Taliban/Al Qaeda and appear to be so arrogant as to believe, propaganda, smart bombs and buying allies in the Middle East will pacify them.
The U.S. military surge may have brought some stability to Bagdad but it is a long way from discouraging Taliban and Al Qaeda plans. 
The one question I cannot answer is the one that I asked when the Bush administration started the war in Iraq; what is the definition of winning this “war”?

It’s MY Strait! No, It’s my MY Strait!

By Louise, January 12: “The civi’s leading the Pentagon all to often have none of the above. Plus there’s that hands-on experience thing, which the “leaders” don’t have…”

Yes, Louise, and there was that disgusting woman from the WH staff on TV saying that they had a right to “shoot the Iranians out of the water”. Where do they get them from, ugh???

But, talking about another straits, the Taiwan Straits, the USA has just been toppled from its hegemony there as the Taiwanese people have voted out their glamor lawyer’s party in favor of the old KMT.

They support closer ties with China instead of never-ending confrontation merely to please the American agenda. So the USA has lost another ally in the war to bash China into submission. Only Japan is the odd man out in Asia now.

So, even the Kuo Min Tang, the PRC’s (Communist China) old nemesis has moulded a friendship with the new China once again. That really does herald the rise of China and the eclipse of the USA in world affairs.

Amen Louise. Nothing like a little hands on experience, not to mention some good judgement, and a sense of reality, when it’s ones OWN life on the line, or that of one’s OWN commrades.

Now, I SUPPOSE there might be a handful of folks at the Pentagon who have these things, (which makes your apology very much appreciated). Thing is though, they’re probably too busy WORKING, to even read it.

It’s MY Strait!
No, It’s my Strait!
NO! It’s MY Strait!

Guys ... it belongs to Mother Earth.

Meanwhile, the United States Navy is being held at bay by an assorted number of speed boats that emit strange “I am coming to get you” deep-throated [in English] threats. Sorry, I cant figure out a better way to describe it.

Sounded like my eight year old grandson impersonating “Ahnald.” Or his dad playing monster in the closet to a riot of giggling and running to hide!

I try to take this stuff seriously, I really do. But hearing that threat made me laugh out loud!
Sorry ... couldn’t help it!

And while I agree with most all your comment(s) I think this is an example of some sailors havin’ fun. Something they are very good at. Havin’ fun I mean.

Our guys in the military aren’t near as stupid as some of the civilians in the Pentagon who “guide” them. In fact there is no comparison. The sailors have smarts plus guts. [plus a sense of humor] The civi’s leading the Pentagon all to often have none of the above. Plus there’s that hands-on experience thing, which the “leaders” don’t have.

How many “leaders” who guide us through the perilous straits of life have actually ever had to make life and death decisions? I mean there OWN life and death. They’re very good at making life and death decisions with someone else’s life. But their decisions usually reflect a level of stupidity, and ignorance of reality. Which come to think of it, would explain Bushes taking this idiocy seriously ... duh.

Unfortunately until we have a congress that’s smart enough to confirm a qualified secretary of defense, and a population smart enough to elect a qualified [not to mention smart enough] president and congress, we are where we are.

I doubt they thought for one second anyone would take that “threat” seriously ... but some of them have never been to the Pentagon. On the other hand ... maybe it was someone in the Pentagon who inserted the scary threat. Goes back to that very uncool and decidedly stupid thing.

By the way ... apologies to the folks in the Pentagon who are smart, have had hands on experience and do understand reality. Unfortunately they are not the ones currently favored by our noble bush.

***this is exactly what got Saddam invaded, occupied, and eventually hung from the rafters. He was definitely gonna do the Euro switch***

He had in fact already done the switch. After the U.S. invasion, the infraction was remedied by restoring the supremacy of U.S. paper.

Please read:
The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse
http://www.energybulletin.net/12125.html

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope

Rob Peter, to pay Paul. Yes, what a deceptive and fraudulent shell game. What really irks me is that the corporate lens, the magicians of sound and vision, main-stream media completely ignores this fact! But, then again, it is the purpose of the magician to distract. They won’t point in the direction of Johnny with his finger in the dike, massively fractured and ready to blow.

Remember the hyper-inflation of pre-WWII Germany. The currency manufacturers began to print only one side, because it just wasn’t worth the cost of the ink to print both.

Just think. If you or I were to do this we would be whisked away on charges of counterfeiting!

I’m afraid you’re right! Bush’s only calming approach will issue from the barrel of a gun.
***
The forces in the universe are neither good nor evil, but misappropriated, in the hands of those who perceive those forces as weapons of power then do they manifest as evil.

When a Great Light is turned into darkness, it can be very dark indeed.

Any strategy to maintain a metered public dependance!

As one economist bosted sometime ago, “If you’ve got the meter running on the American public, you’ve got the best game in town.”

The higher the ego climbs, the further it has to falls.

Thanks for pointing this out. Yep, I’d considered this, remembering of course that this is exactly what got Saddam invaded, occupied, and eventually hung from the rafters. He was definitely gonna do the Euro switch, and he wasn’t thinking about monitoring his output either. He was ready to sell however much Iraq could produce, and to whomever wanted to buy it, and at a ‘discounted’ rate…and still keep it all in the family. (as in Nationalized) The Saudis were near frantic at that of course, not to mention the Carlyle Group (Combination of the House of Saud and the House of Bush) and all of those other biggies…BP, Chevron, Royal Dutch Shell, Exxon-Mobile, and let’s not leave out Halliburton. Yep, Saddam was going to split as a ‘team player’ with OPEC.

As for the Iranians, they had already begun requesting payment from Japan, (for their oil trade) in YEN, even before December, when they switched to the Euro. (That was about a year ago I think, give or take). And, it was December, (just last month) when the U.S. Navy fired some ‘warning shots’ at some Iranian boats, there in the Hormuz Strait, and quite close to their export facilities, if the details of that are correct.

So yeah, now that you mention it, the Saudis are holding a bunch of worthless paper, and of course it’s been kind of difficult to hide that recently. They can read as well as anybody else, and if they wanted to do business with China, they could do so directly. Talk about robbing from Peter, (Saudi Arabia) to pay Paul (China) the Bushites have themselves in quite a jam, eh?

So, thanks again for pointing that out. We might guess that georgie made his first trip to the area to sooth the Saudis, even though that has typically been Cheney’s charge, or Papa Bush before him.(georgie isn’t exactly the most efficient of business types). Somehow, I don’t think he’s likely to calm their fears.

Is it just me? or did anyone else immediately think it was Borat on the radio?

**As of Dec. 2007, Iran began trading oil in Euros!**

After carefully reading the link below, Bush’s trip to the east becomes somewhat suspicious, perhaps even transparent. As with Iraq, prior to the 2nd U.S. incursion, Saddam also dared to raise the ire of the Bush Corporate Oligarchs when he began to trade oil in Euros. And now, Iran’s similar infraction upon the dollar has once again given Bush an itchy trigger finger. It begs answer to the question: Is there an ulterior motive for the purpose of Bush’s trip east? Perhaps a clandestine handshake, to give Olmert a thumbs up for a strike against Iran?

Once the house of Saud begins to realize that they are holding onto a bucket full of worthless U.S. paper, diminishing in value, they too will look to the greener grass of the Euro.

PLEASE GOOGLE:  The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse

Are the magicians of sound and vision intent on ignoring this one also?

Best Wishes, Peace and Hope

This is what I was at least trying to say, back when.  I truly believe/just has to be, those in our armed forces, that CARE!  I’m positive they’re there.  When I read William Blum’s book Rogue State for all the bad news and upsetting info contained within, the flip side was HE CARED!  And logic would say there had to be others (Joseph Wilson, Valerie Plame) and those we don’t have names for.

IMPEACH CHENEY, THEN BUSH!

The easiest place to gin up an incident is on the water.No witnesses.Have we not been here before with the Gulf of Tonkin.I here they are rechristening one of the boats The Maine.We are dumb enough to go war with an old slogan"Remember the Maine”.By the way great to see that for the 24 billion or so we spend on intelligence it has improved so much.We got confused with who attacked us on 911 and now we have no idea who menaced our boats.My su8ggestion call Chalabi.

Oh P.T…you hit that right on the head.

I sure would like to be a fly on the wall there. (at least temporarily, as long as I could revert back to myself on my own immediate demand).

Anyway, I really did allow myself an out loud laugh at this correction to the original hype. (and I semi-suspected that such a ‘correction’ might be forthcoming). Here again, can you imagine what must have gone on behind closed doors on this? It didn’t help their original lie at all, when the Iranians came out with their own recorded version of the ‘incident’.

Still, it proves how desperate some of them are, to (as you say) ‘gin up’ a full scale assault on Iran. And, they just grow more and more desperate by the moment.

Seems like Cheney should have had at least 47 heart attacks by now.

I have to agree with you on this one Chalmers.

Tough, ha ha! The Iranians said that they DID as they have the right to challenge any vessel in their waters. The trouble with the US Navy these days is that it thinks that it has the right to sail in any waters. That’s why China told them to piss off recently….. storm or no storm.

But the real reason this is all happening is not only because of Big Oil and the bullshit war on terror but the new energy CARTEL being set up to corner the world market for enriched uranium. As usual, Israel is the dog in the manger.

How is it being done? By threatening Iran over building a nuclear reactor, the USA is frightening other countries into complying from fear that they will be labelled as rogue states. That is, they must buy from a third party country instead of purchasing yellowcake and enriching it themselves.

Thus the continuous pressure on Iran and the endless screaming and howling from the Bush administration despite confirmation from El Baradei and the IAEA and even Russia that nothing untoward is happeneing in Iran.

Ironically, though, this very imperative will significantly increase the risk of enriched uranium falling into the hands of terrorists as it will all have to be transported around the world instead of enriched on site.

There seems to be a battle within the Pentagon between those trying to gin up an attack on Iran and those who are opposed.