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Huckabee Takes Iowa

Posted on Jan 3, 2008

Mike Huckabee is the Republican winner of the 2008 Iowa caucuses, with a significant lead over Mitt Romney, who came in second despite spending more time and money in the state than his rivals.


For most of 2007, Huckabee languished in the single digits in the polls and had very little success raising money. But his momentum really picked up in the final six weeks of the year when social conservatives—an important voting bloc in Iowa—began to move his way.

But Huckabee’s ground operation does not match that of Romney, a former Massachusetts governor who has spent millions of dollars identifying supporters.

Instead, Huckabee said his get-out-the-vote operation will be driven by a mixture of official campaign activity and grassroots support from home-schoolers and opponents of gun control.

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By Goober, January 6, 2008 at 8:05 pm Link to this comment
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This guy creeps me out.

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By Leefeller, January 6, 2008 at 6:45 am Link to this comment

Bush used the Right wing religious as a tool. What do you mean by old time religion? You talking of old time Islam were women are treated like bugs or Catholic religion were women are treated less then equal.  How about the Bush religion, Methodist, Open Hearts, Open Minds and off to war? Old time meaning?

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By Louise, January 5, 2008 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

There is a huge difference between people who want to be able to start the school day with a prayer, and people who want to make it ‘verboten’ to NOT be a member of the State Religion!

There is an enormous difference between people who overcome personal fear on the battlefield with a private prayer faith their god will watch over them, and a band of fully armed warriors with the intent of assault and murder screaming God is leading their assault!

There is an indisputable difference between a group of churchgoers, taking their turns to move out into traffic, and a band of mega-church goers illegally closing the road so only they can enter traffic!

There is a spine chilling difference between people who believe they and theirs should avoid sex outside of marriage, but in the event an oops happens having the child, loving the child, raising the child ... and a group of people who are so twisted they see sex as only dirty and sexual behavior and abortion as a crime that deserves State enforcement worthy of State punishment, possibly death!

Bush used the Christian right for personal political gain. He saw them as hungry for recognition, and easily manipulated. It worked so well for him, his buddies jumped on the band wagon. Huckabee sees himself as a genuine ordained minister of God and therefore should have no problem turning his religious believes into State policy, and eventually State enforced law!

Those are the big differences we should worry about. While Bushes insincerity has allowed a lot of corruption, and opened the door to the truly crazy in the name of God to gain far to much power, he did it knowing full well he was not a spokesman for God. All one need do is watch him at the annual Prayer Breakfast to realize that.

Huck will have no pangs, or reservations or second thoughts about making his will law, because his motives are based in his personal conviction that he speaks for God. Bush is the great pretender. Huck is the real deal, and we should all be terrified at the prospect that he could actually become president!

Bush is dangerous because he is insincere and malleable. Hence he was the perfect choice for the Oligarchy.

Huck is dangerous because he is very sincere and thought to be malleable. And even the Oligarchy [which really doesn’t care about God one way or the other, so long as they can control the military/Industrial/political complex] can make mistakes, a mistake that might turn him back on them! [It happened in Germany] And then where are we?

Waiting for the fuehrer to send the storm troopers after those who refuse to bend to the will of the State Church and it’s divine leader?

Maybe that’s the big difference we need to wrap our heads around!

“When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.” ... Sinclair Lewis

Now, I have a question. How come you all have so much trouble accepting the fact that Bush was NOT elected? Because, it could happen again. Particularly if you refuse to see it coming!

I dont understand. Is this the one issue where you are in complete agreement with main stream media?

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By driving bear, January 5, 2008 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

What I think you don’t understand is the Christian right makes up about 40-45 % of the US population.
Also the christian right is in the majority in certain parts of the country especially the south and in parts of the mid west and generally in small town America. Any demographic that large will and should have considerable power and influence in politics. The main problem of the democrats is that they support policies that are fundamentally opposed to those of the christian right primarily in the area of social issues. What I think the left does not understand is how important the issues are to the christian right. Just because these issue are unimportant to the left does not mean they are unimportant the the right , christian right or the center.
The problem of the democrats is they have forgotten that to win election you only need 50% +1 vote and by their stance on social issues they have in essence spotted the GOP 40+% right off the bat.

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By cyrena, January 5, 2008 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment


•  The Democrats have never understood the rise of the Christian right in this country, and they tend to be dismissive of their agenda.
This hits the bulls eye, and it has worried the devil out of me as well. (no pun intended – well, maybe).

Still, there is absolutely NO DOUBT, that the dems have largely blown these folks off, maybe in part, because they see them as nutcases, and that may indeed by true, to a greater or lesser extent. It does NOT however, mean that they are ‘benign’. In fact, it means the opposite, and turning one’s back on a danger, is NEVER smart.

The really scary part of this whole thing, is that they have INCREASED in numbers and in the radical nature of their ‘movement’. So, while these started out as the very same ones that put Bush in office for 2 consecutive terms, (which still amazes me, since he’s the bipolar opposite of what they claim to ‘value’ most) there are actually MORE of them now, rather than less. (which common sense would dictate – at least from where I’m sitting).

And, those who have joined this ‘movement’ in the past 8 years, (at least the ones I’ve researched) were actually MODERATE Christians to begin with, or not even particularly ‘religiously inclined’ AT ALL!!
Which brings me back to my sort of general hypothesis, that the shock and awe of the past 7 years, (Naomi Klein calls it the ‘Shock Doctrine’) has pushed a huge portion of the population into this ideology, where once they may have been more reasonable and/or moderate. For many, it’s become an ideology born of desperation. And yep, desperate people do any number of things to relieve themselves of exactly that. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’ve made the right connections between the causes and effects. It only matters what they ‘perceive’ to be the problems, and what they will therefore come up with, in order to solve them.
So, I’m with you. Rather than simply continue to ‘dismiss’ them, (very dangerous) it would be far better to embrace some MODERATE form of Christianity, (like maybe what it actually started out as??) or we will in fact be destroyed, as you’ve pointed out. We’re already close enough.

A Huckabee or a Ron Paul would finish us off.

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By Conservative Yankee, January 5, 2008 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment
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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, January 5 at 9:05 am

“When your party affiliation is with the one that:
* ran roughshod over the constitution for
8 years
* ruined the country financially
* killed more than 3000 young Americans
and perhaps a million Iraqis in an illegal
war and occupation
* alienated Americans by spying on them
* destroyed the U.S.’s image as a leader
* showed incompetentcy and disregard for
victims of a major, domestic natural
* etc., etc “

Of course the Democratic party (party of the worker?) advocate of open borders,enabler of the Iraq war, co-author of the bankruptcy bill, Governor of Louisiana, and Mayor of New Orleans, recipient of Drug company largess, and co-sponsor of N.A.F.T.A. have nothing to do with this mess?

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By Sharon Ash, January 5, 2008 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What the “Huck” is wrong with Iowa???  Stupidity alone, should disallow them from being first on any national voting issue.  Good grief!

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By G.Anderson, January 5, 2008 at 12:18 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Huckabee frightens me. For many reasons, first of all because It’s quite likely that he will be the next president of the United States.

His presidency would rip this country to pieces.

The Democrats have never understood the rise of the Christian right in this country, and they tend to be dismissive of their agenda.

Unfortunately, it is this very group that gave President Bush the ability to win two terms in this country and put foward a radical right wing agenda.

They are well organized, and will go to the polls, just like soliders marching to war.

Unless the Democratic party figures out a way to counter their efforts they will loose again; maybe by embracing moderate Christian leadership.

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By Gary Sargent, January 5, 2008 at 10:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The last time I checked the Constitution there are two qualifications to be president. Unfortunately, Mr. Huckabee does meet both; he is a native-born citizen and he will be over 35 next January.

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By Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, January 5, 2008 at 10:05 am Link to this comment

When your party affiliation is with the one that:
    *  ran roughshod over the constitution for
      8 years
    *  ruined the country financially
    *  killed more than 3000 young Americans  
      and perhaps a million Iraqis in an illegal
      war and occupation
    *  alienated Americans by spying on them
    *  destroyed the U.S.‘s image as a leader
    *  showed incompetentcy and disregard for
      victims of a major, domestic natural  
    *  etc., etc
it’s quite understandable that, if you’re going to remain a republican, you’d better rely on Jesus, God and Family Values as your issue.

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By Leefeller, January 5, 2008 at 8:20 am Link to this comment

Ignorance is bliss,  hypocrisy the premise, so those who do not believe are forced to accept or else?  Christianity so loving especially in politics, Hukster as Pope , history should be our teacher.  Church and state means freedom following the Christian guidelines and rules for the selected.  Yes, Ignorance is bliss!

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By GW=MCHammered, January 4, 2008 at 11:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ron Paul vs Mike Huckabee (vs McCain)


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By Louise, January 4, 2008 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

OK, now that we’ve all had time to recover from the shock of Huckabee wins, lets sit back and take a look at what Black Box Voting has been doing ...


“And, as the Republicans said they would, they routed their results through the Associated Press or the handful of guys that replaced VNS, now called NEP.

So the web site conveniently crashes showing nothing and now the networks are announcing the winners with only 40% of the vote in.

The hand counting process for the CSPAN Republican caucus is poorly controlled. Not enough witnesses and a disorganized layout, people sticking piles on the floor, or huddling over them with their backs to the camera.
They also shooed the public out. The cameras were there but were not capturing the ballot faces in most cases.”


“To their slight credit, the DEMS appear to be providing not only some form of raw precinct data, but performing the calculations and the tallying-for-reporting right on each visitor’s workstation, with relatively easily decodable software, allowing anyone who wants to, to view not only the software doing the tallying but also the data.

Of course, I’m not aware of there being anything with which to substantiate the raw data which is being tabulated.} “


“I literally laughed out loud at the magic show the Republicans are putting on.

“We will be very transparent and report in live time on our Web site.”

“Well not the details, precincts will come after the totals are announced ” (think about this folks: You can’t GET the totals without the precinct results. They’re doing it out of order)

And then:

“Oh gee the web site isn’t posting any results after all”

And then:

“Hello we are the networks and with 40% in we are projecting [note subtle misuse of language]
“Huckabee won Iowa”


So, why would anybody want to rig the vote in Huckabee’s favor? [If indeed that is what happened, and if you read the above link all the way through, you will begin to wonder if that isn’t exactly what happened!]

Well, here’s a couple of possible reasons:


“While Huck will say what you want to hear to win office, he will not hear what you want to say once there. He will make tone-deaf Bush seem like a maestro. How do I know this?”
“He believes.”

“When Ron Paul was asked about Mike Huckabee’s overt usage of a cross for a campaign advertisement, he quoted Sinclair Lewis as saying, “When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a cross.”

“Have you wondered why Mike Huckabee is suddenly getting so much favorable attention from the mainstream media (who themselves are controlled by this gaggle of global elite)? To find the answer as to why a professing pro-life, conservative Christian would suddenly become the darling of the media, look no further than the fact that just a couple of months ago, Mr. Huckabee appeared before the globalist-minded Council on Foreign Relations.”

Read his speech here:
And when he did, it became abundantly clear that Huckabee was a man globalists could trust.”


We never saw Bush kiss Huckabee, but did we ever believe Bush was really the decider ... really?

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By Blackspeare, January 4, 2008 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

Huckabee is a one state wonder.  He won in Iowa because of the religious fundamentalists.  He will not do very well in New Hampshire which is a more secular state almost libertine in philosophy.  New Hampshire will go for Romney or McCain.

On the other side, however, Obama is on a roll——fasten your seatbelts its going to be a bumpy ride!

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By cd, January 4, 2008 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

beautifully said!!!!!

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By Louise, January 4, 2008 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment

I second that!

If the whole mess were reduced to six months, we might actually look forward to elections again! Might actually get intensely involved!

I mean, I can give up six months to work for my candidate ... but eighteen, twenty four? No way. Like cyrena, I am so tired, sick and tired of the whole silly business!

Seems too many feel if they just throw a few bucks at their candidate of the moment, they have done enough. But the bottom line is [drum role please] that money is going DIRECTLY into the pockets of corporate main-stream media, who love things the way they are! The more they can drag it out, the more money they make!

[Notable exception, Ron Paul, who the media chooses to ignore, and even he isn’t quite sure what he’s going to do with all that campaign money!]

All that TV time, all those full page adds, and some other third thing [sorry Sponge Bob] makes a lot of profit for someone ... and it aint you and me!

I applaud the caucus goers, I applaud the primary voters, but I do not applaud the way the thing is structured. It simply is not fair that these early caucuses and primaries influence who will finally be on the ballets for those of us who have our primaries later!



OK, I know that would be harder for the media folks.

Tough cookies!

And it would mean the candidates would have to divide their time up between fifty states.

Well folks, if they really want the job, they shouldn’t be afraid to meet ALL of their future employers!

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By P. T., January 4, 2008 at 2:55 pm Link to this comment

Who started it?  It’s a result of the transition from feudalism to capitalism.  The bourgeoisie replaced the landed aristocracy (The French Revolution, for example), as the ruling class.  With industrialization, the bourgeoisie (no longer just small artisans) hired many employees.

The U.S. didn’t have feudalism.  It was founded as feudalism was breaking down in Europe, but capitalism followed a similar path here.

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By P. T., January 4, 2008 at 2:30 pm Link to this comment

Ron Paul beat Rudy Giuliani in Iowa.  Fox News hates Ron Paul.

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By Scott, January 4, 2008 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment

The Establishment is that segment of humanity (and a damn tiny one at that) which holds all the power over the rest of us and believes it is all in the “order of things.”

I generally agree with you but in the absence of any names the proverbial ‘they’ just sounds too vague and so conspiratorial that it is often easy to dismiss.

I think it would be far more accurate to describe The Establishment as a human condition - one that develops wherever a confluence of too much power and wealth occur.

To be fair naming names and then eliminating them in the short term would chnage anything at all in the long term. Power and wealth would still remain because they really are almost like forces of nature. The problem of how to contain them would also remain.

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By desertdude, January 4, 2008 at 1:15 pm Link to this comment

What America needs is a National Primary. That way all who are running put their hats in the ring. Let the best candidate win. It all (the election) and primary should only take 6 months. No More. It would be great for America.

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By Outraged, January 4, 2008 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

I received this email today and thought others might be interested in signing these petitions. 

“Once again, the corporate media is trying to tell you which candidates you’re allowed to vote for.

ABC and Fox News are sponsoring debates just before the New Hampshire presidential primary.

Both ABC and FOX are ruthlessly using their control of these debates to limit the choice of American voters—before the first vote is cast!

Here’s what they’ve done:

ABC NEWS HAS EXCLUDED KUCINICH, GRAVEL, AND OTHERS:  In an arbitrary decision that shakes our democracy to its very core, ABC News has set debate criteria that exclude Dennis Kucinich, Mike Gravel, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden and Duncan Hunter from their Saturday debates.  New Hampshire has a recent history of open debates. As a result of these exclusions the New Hampshire Union Leader newspaper has decided not to co-sponsor the debate.

FOX NEWS HAS EXCLUDED RON PAUL: Fox News has done ABC one step worse by calling it’s Sunday debate a “candidate forum” to avoid setting any criteria at all.  They’re using this technicality to exclude Ron Paul - even though the co-sponsoring New Hampshire Republican Party issued a statement saying they want all the candidates included.

FOX and ABC are using arbitrary criteria to exclude the diverse and anti-war voices in the Democratic and Republican primaries and limit the participation of independent voters. is the independent watchdog on the electoral process -

Click here to join us in flooding ABC and Fox News with emails and phone calls demanding that all the candidates be included in the televised debates>

Thank you for working to take our country back from the party bosses, big money, and corporate media,

Jim Mangia & Linda Curtis

**Petition Link:

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By driving bear, January 4, 2008 at 11:27 am Link to this comment

Face it homosexual activity is a deviant sexual practice like rape incest and pedophilia.

The American people do not approve of it. In every case where the people have had the chance to vote on the issue they have voted against homo rights.
Sorry to break it to you but you are part of the 15% of Americans who take the far left position on every issue. The rest of american has decided you are childish and crazy and like a child all you can do is throw a hissie fit.

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By rage, January 4, 2008 at 10:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Why wouldn’t he? Iowa Republicans, much like the Arkansas hick-force who put this lumox into their Governor’s mansion, are that same brand of rabid Bible-weilding, gun-loving, tobaccy-chawrin’ flee marketeers who boast membership in the NRA. He walked away with 34% of the Republican votes cast by a bunch of cornhuskers, and not even a snowcone’s chance in a Chicago July of beating a democrat in the general election in November. He’s the real deal - a true hick from Hope. There is no chance in hell that GOP royalists and elites who govern Wall Street are going to nominate this hick whose real constituents wreak of WalMart. Pappy with his pork hulls back in the 80s and Dumya the wannabe cowpoke are one thing. But, that Huck is a REAL hick. He will not be tolerated by the GOP in November.

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By cyrena, January 4, 2008 at 10:14 am Link to this comment

By Paul McCabe,124241

•  But let’s assume you’re right, and that homosexuality is a choice…SO WHAT? What business is it of yours, the state, the law or the government to interfere with what other consenting adults do with, for or too one another sexually?...They’re CONSENTING ADULTS!


THIS is the part that he ‘can’t get’. We’ve been though it before. He cannot accept that it’s none of his fucking business, what other GROWN people do.

But, thanks for the input. People like him can and will just really drag us down, if we allow it. (and I admit that I have, just because I’m stuck on common sense and respect for my fellow humans, and apparently have the ‘arrogance’ to think that I can actually convey rationale to someone like this…my bad)

But in reality, There ought to be a LAW AGAINST HIM!

Humm, maybe I can introduce some legislation. wink

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By Jeff Muler, January 4, 2008 at 10:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Keep digging for those sermons. there out there somwhere

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By cyrena, January 4, 2008 at 9:59 am Link to this comment

Louise, I’m so tired…all I can do is say…THANK YOU!!

Please carry on. You are just so appreciated.

You know what I mean.

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By Conservative Yankee, January 4, 2008 at 7:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I would bet that Huckabee is done with his string for awhile, for while New Hampshire is a conservative (less so than when I lived there in the 70s) State, it hasn’t (in the past) been kind to political preachers ... I remember the crowd who Booed Pat Robertson in Keene, and the Hostility Jerry Falwel got when he toured the Amoskeag textile mills.

New Hampshire’s conservativeness is ALL about money, and Huckabee’s proposed national “sales tax” will kill him off throughout New England (IMHO)

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By Louise, January 4, 2008 at 6:59 am Link to this comment

Hmmm ... interesting comments.
For what it’s worth, here’s my two cents.

No mention of Ron Paul.
Lesson here for all you Ron Paul supporters. While it has been fun and amazing watching you throw money into his campaign, it don’t mean squat if you don’t get out and vote. The Paul supporters will scream, Paul was not represented fairly [for a variety of reasons] in Iowa. But if there were no Caucusers there, to caucus for him ... well, he didn’t get caucused.

Duh ...

And speaking of money. Romney’s showing, and Giuliani’s for that matter, should clearly demonstrate money isn’t everything.

No, really? Yes, really.

Money buys space and clout and a lot of exposure, but maybe this time around the exposure will backfire!

Romney’s crack about dumping snow in the driveways of folks who don’t vote for him, for example. In mormon-ville, that kind of remark would be seen as “humor” and dismissed.

In the rest of the so-called Christian world, that remark would have been seen as offensive and a real turn-off.

Not as bad as calling for attack and hate on all gays, people who are the wrong color or religion, single moms, free-choicers, and the working poor. But in the realm of the bible thumpers, “Hate in the Name of Love” is a virtue!

Tough one for Romney. He hasn’t got a clue how those other Christian minds work.

Huckabee has. And apparently pushed the right buttons, according to this article, the women. Which is another “go figure” moment.

I never could understand why “religious” women will so willingly fight to preserve a system that victimizes them!

Maybe it’s the “Well I went through it, you should too!” Factor. Or maybe it’s proof positive how completely “religious” husbands FAIL as husbands. Sending their wives into fits of Devine adoration for that man Jesus, who they cant see, don’t have to clean up after, and doesn’t lamb-blast them every time they open their mouths.

Poor things wink

All the same, I confess I haven’t paid much attention. So aside from the fact that Huckabee is just another dime-store preacher-man wind-up toy, what exactly does qualify him [if anything] to be president?

Maybe we better find out!

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By Expat, January 4, 2008 at 6:36 am Link to this comment

Does anybody here really think he can win?  If he does so what; it will be more of the same:  Why would that matter to you?  You have rolled over and played dead for 7 years, so what’s another 4?  So just go about your business and don’t worry about the polling results, it will be okay!  Trust me.

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By Paul McCabe, January 4, 2008 at 3:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Driving bear, sexuality is instinctual. Yes, most of us can chose to act on those instincts or not, we can chose our behaviour in relations to others, but the instinct, the attraction, is hot wired in the brain,  and the slightest suggestion that homosexuality is on par with deviant behavior, like sex with minors for example, is not only unfair but is nothing short of repugnant. But let’s assume you’re right, and that homosexuality is a choice…SO WHAT? What business is it of yours, the state, the law or the government to interfere with what other consenting adults do with, for or too one another sexually?...They’re CONSENTING ADULTS! Oh, and right wing people need to stop the ‘if we accept homosexuality it will mark the end of the human race’ nonsense. They’re making fools of themselves and are suggesting that heterosexuals are so uncontrollably ‘attracted’ to homosexuality, they would automatically ‘turn’, if gay marriage was universally legal and accepted?...(and no doubt some of them would!). And as for abortion, the very idea that as soon as a woman falls pregnant she loses all rights to her body, is a violation, not only of her rights, BUT OF HER BODY!

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By cyrena, January 4, 2008 at 3:33 am Link to this comment

DB- Diagnosis Hate..

You are wrong again here DB. Wrong as wrong can be, and you can’t help it, because you lack the conceptual capacity to understand what HUMAN RIGHTS really are.

So, we’re aren’t going to discuss this again. If you are one of the few people, (and there aren’t many of these people, even among the ‘pro-lifers’) who believe abortion to be state sanctioned murder, then there is no point in having a conversation with you on the issue. It means that you have no way of understanding what HUMAN RIGHTS are.

I know that, because we’ve had these discussions before, and we all know, that you would have ZERO problem, denying a living being housing, food, life or liberty. And, THOSE ARE are basic HUMAN RIGHTS! So, lets face it. You’re either a hypocrite, or you’re mentally ill. There seems to be an inherent mean-spirited essence to you, that compels you to do mean things, and to look for people as objects of your hate.

As for homosexuality, it is NOT a choice. If you believe that, even though medical science has long since proven otherwise, then there’s really no hope for you. Nobody wakes up one day and says, oh, I think I’ll be homosexual. Rather, from my lengthy conversations with many homosexuals of both genders, it is NOT a comfortable thing at all, because society has made them feel that there is something inherently WRONG with them.

What an irony. There’s nothing wrong with THEM. It’s people like YOU, who are left totally dysfunctional, because of the hate.

The only clue I can really offer you, is to tell you that it’s about the hate. If there were a way for you to free yourself from the hate, you might have a chance. But, I don’t know how to tell you to do that.

For some people, I could suggest, well…’religion’ or some quest for spirituality. But, we also know from multiple conversations on this blog, that you’re already firmly committed to the bible (at least you say you are), and so I guess you’ve missed the whole part that preaches AGAINST hate, and encourages us to love and accept each other, and NOT TO JUDGE.

No doubt there’s that basic contradiction and dichotomy with which you’re attempting to live. Until you can work it out, you’ll keep hating, (yourself first) and you’ll keep trying to push that hate off onto others. You’ll blame everybody else in the world for your hate, and so it’ll always be there, because you can’t control everybody else, and that means that you’ll always have someone to hate. If it’s not the immigrants, then it’ll be homosexuals, or protestants, or Arabs, or Muslims, or women, or the kid at the market, or the school street crossguard, or someone you don’t even know, who you THINK might have an abortion.

And, as long as you aren’t able to command FULL control and authority over others, you’ll always be able to find an object for your hate. It’s a drug you’ll never run out of.

So, since the religious thing doesn’t work for you, maybe you could try some professional counseling. It has helped many others like you.

But, we won’t have this conversation again, because I can’t help you, and you can’t change anyone, because you can’t even change yourself. If you can’t learn to accept other people as they are, as long as they are not harming YOU, then you’ll just stay miserable. Guess Jesus can’t help you either. Too bad. So sad. It’s always sad when there’s no hope.

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By cyrena, January 4, 2008 at 2:29 am Link to this comment

Driving Bear.

The are several places in the Constitution that address these issues DB.

The first place that you can look is at the Establishment Clause. It clearly explains that the Church and the State are to remain separate.

The other is in the right to privacy. You cannot force your religion on anyone else, nor can you be prevented from practicing your own religion.

It’s not complicated DB. You would like to MAKE it complicated, because it’s your nature to be in control of not just yourself, but everyone else. It’s an authoritarian mentality, which is prevalent throughout our own society, but even more so in other very repressive and regressive societies, where the laws of the church are ALSO the civil laws.
You would be very happy in a place like say, Saudi Arabia.

But here, you go nuts, because you can’t FORCE your own beliefs on everyone else, because the Constitution set it up that way. That’s what makes it such a remarkable document, though certainly it is not PERFECT. (don’t forget, the original document actually made chattle slavery legal, because the economy was entirely dependant upon it).

Still, even with me telling you where to look for this, you won’t find it, because you don’t want to.

Still, the thing that you’ll have to accept, whether you want to or not, is that the Constitution and the Bible are entirely separate documents. They simply are not the same. The bible has been around for thousands and thousands of years, and nobody knows who wrote it, or what it even said when it was originally published.

That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t still be allowed to read it to your hearts content.

But, the Constitution was written as an entirely different document, for an entirely different purpose, and only a few hundred years ago. So, just like the Qur’an is not used in place of the U.S. Constitution, or in conjunction with it, neither is the bible.

As for ‘knowing Jesus’? I know the same thing that you read in your bible. I read the King James version. Is yours different? If not, I know the same Jesus you know. I’m relatively sure there was only one.

Does your bible say that Jesus was born in a manger, in the middle east, and that he was a Jew? Yep, so does mine.

Does it say that he comforted the sick,(including the lepers?) feed the hungry, and ran the money changers out of the temple? Mine says that.

Does it say anything in there about him packing weapons, and killing off the name of His Father, or anyone else? If so, I never read that part.

The only part I ever learned about Jesus Christ, in what I assume to be the same book that you read, is that he was kind, and that he accepted all people as his brothers and sisters.

You are a hateful person, and the Jesus that I know, was not.

So, I’ll keep my relationship with Him, and you can keep yours, and we’ll leave the Constitution out of it entirely, since…as I said, they are different documents, for different purposes. The Constitution determines how we behave in a society that has agreed to be governed by the rule of law, and not the bible.

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By cyrena, January 4, 2008 at 1:13 am Link to this comment


I have all of the books and stats that you reference, and THEN some. (to confirm all that you said).

But, here’s some advice. People like driving bear are ignorant now, and will stay that way, because they can’t help it. He doesn’t have a clue, but it doesn’t help for you to give him any, because he WANTS to stay stupid.

So, while some others may benefit from a real history of our nation, people like him never will.

If he honestly believes that white people came here for religious freedom, then that’s what he’ll always believe. You can give him a 100 books of orginal documents that say otherwise, and it won’t help.

But, I’m sure others can gain from the knowledge. It’s still amazing to me, that I had to get to college, before I actually learned the REAL history of this country. Religious freedom my ass.

The larger percentage of the first batch of them were OUTCASTS from various parts of Europe, because it was becoming overcrowded. And, as they came, (and brought their DISEASES,) the Indians started to die off. The INTENTIONAL infections with blankets infected with small pox and other things didn’t help.

I could go on, but you know the story. And, it wasn’t about religious freedom.

Anyway, I know it’s been a long time, but this ignorance WILL eventually die off. Promise. wink

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By cyrena, January 4, 2008 at 12:45 am Link to this comment

•  (Don’t you ever wonder who in the hell started all this shit?)

Bravo Jaki!!

Yep, I DID wonder, (or at least I used to wonder). Then I finally got around to learning some of what you’ve so excellently posted here, and that helped me understand. And then I learned some MORE stuff, and I understood even better.

Now, that’s not to say that any of us have to LIKE it. But, it does make it a little bit easier to deal with, (at least for me) when we can get a general idea of how this shit got going. (I hate it when stuff doesn’t make sense). Once it’s explained, it sill might be f***-ed up, but at least we understand. smile

So, thanks.

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By driving bear, January 4, 2008 at 12:24 am Link to this comment

The white Man came to American for religious freedom
As more an more white men came to America conflict with native americas was the result. The white man won the conflict because he had guns and the native american did not.

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By Jaki, January 4, 2008 at 12:22 am Link to this comment

By Ga, January 3 at 7:14 pm #
“And just what exactly is The Establishment?”

By P. T., January 3 at 7:49 pm
“The rich and those who shill for them, the ruling class, the elite”

This is a minimally correct definition.  To flesh it out, a few additional considerations (I hope you will share your own):

Some human beings are born into what they consider “privilege,”  which they believe is by divine providence or simply inherited right (a “line” of succession or ascension).  They think of themselves as Special, Extraordinary (not ordinary), Above the rest of us, and rightfully so.  This privilege came about because of ownership of the means of production of the wealth of our country and control of the resources (which really belong to all of us), or the inheritance thereof.  This wealth and power was garnered by the exploitation of the labor of those they deemed beneath them.  Low wages, high profits.  All the power to hire and fire.  Life and death.  Sickness and health.  They believe they know what is best for us and who should have what.

The “elite,”  as they loved to be called because it carries an assumption of superiority and “class,” which they define in terms of their own preferences. These preferences become, in some form or other, the assumed highest form of “style,” culture, moral values, laws, position in society, power, and the “establishment” of the rules by which the rest of us are forced to live and conform. 

The Establishment created and controls The Government by which they get everything they want and keep the population under control.  They create the laws and the loopholes for themselves.  They own the politicians.  They always have plenty of lawyers. They also established police (and Intelligence Agencies) to enforce those laws (and maintain a proper level of fear).

The Establishment is that segment of humanity (and a damn tiny one at that) which holds all the power over the rest of us and believes it is all in the “order of things.”  They think of themselves as “royalty,” and are, in many countries.  In our country, they hide in the shadows of a false “democracy” which keeps the masses continuing to be their servants, even though they don’t think so.  (Even University Professors are servants.) Their wealth is always made on the backs of the masses (leading, of course, to making money on their money because they also control the financial system).  They don’t work, or at least don’t have to.

They also have the military to do their bidding.  To keep the country safe (and in control) for them.  And the poorest of us (commonly known as “cannon fodder,” to die in that military, to keep their privilege and wealth in tact.  They own and control the weapons of mass destruction.  They keep the population under control with the use of prisons, mental hospitals, low-paying jobs, CONTROL OF THE MEDIA, CONTROL OF EDUCATION, and big doses of FEAR.

They have no conscience, no real compassion, an abundance of arrogance, selfishness, greed, and
no soul.  Whatever charity (they call it philanthropy) they engage in is to salve guilty consciences and, again, do just enough to keep the masses from revolting.

Very likely, The Establishment would not do what they do if they were not filled with fear and loathing underneath all the apparent self-elevation.  But there is no doubt that their addiction to power, greed and control has had devastating effects on the lives of 99% of the population of the world, along with the planet and the rest of its inhabitants.

Ultimately, in order to have real freedom, the people of the world will have to resist and overthrow The Establishment and create something better that responds to the real needs of The People, all of us, with a far more equitable distribution of wealth.

(Don’t you ever wonder who in the hell started all this shit?)

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By driving bear, January 3, 2008 at 11:19 pm Link to this comment

As for mixing religion and politics. I have one question ; where in the constitution does it give instruction for deciding what is a religious and what is a secular political issue, because I have found no such instructions. Just because Cyrena feels something is or is not a religious issue is in no way binding on anyone else or on the US government.
Also as American we are free to use any source for our political views including religion.

Also if you think Jesus Christ is pro homosexual or pro choice / pro death , then I am sorry to say you don’t know Jesus Christ. No BS cyrena I hope and pray you get to know JESUS soon.

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By purplewolf, January 3, 2008 at 11:16 pm Link to this comment

Driving Bear:

Go back and study American history. A nation founded on God and guns? More like lies, deception, murder, trickery, underhandedness, deliberate starvation and diseases unknown to the first peoples of this land before outsiders invaded it and the breaking of most of your ten commandments to steal not only the land but the way of life from the indigenous people who lived in this country first.

You know for all the talk about life being sacred above all else you Christians don’t think twice when eliminating those you chose as inferior. Even when abortion was illegal in America this government went into the reservations and took the girls and women out for medical treatment which included abortion and sterilization and there was no complaints about those women being forced into this. This was forced, not voluntary. But then again they were not real Americans, they were property of the Department of the Interior, who was given domination over these people from the war department when they didn’t know what to do with them. So technically since these women were prisoners of war, anything goes in the elimination of the enemy. In the 1960’s, I no longer have the books with the government statistics, however, it listed the number of births to Native Americans was a few thousand, and the government agencies reported, “that next year it will be even less.” Genocide of a race that the Christians decided were unworthy of existing was and still seems to be the goal of these Christians who still claim they founded this country-another lie that continues to this day.

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By driving bear, January 3, 2008 at 10:56 pm Link to this comment


You don’t get it. Homosexuality is a choice.  In fact all sexual activity except that of a rape victim is a choice. The other genetic traits you describe are not. The state can and does regulate sexual activity. For example you may not have sex with someone without their consent. You may not have sex with someone under the age of 18 even with their consent. Some states regulate sex with someone with someone who is mentally challenged . With the exception of Nevada you may not exchange sex for money etc..

As for the abortion issue it’s a HUMAN RIGHTS issue not a medical one. Abortion is a state sanctioned MURDER no more or less and America knows it.
2 years ago Pew research ( a polling company) did an in depth survey on the issue. They discover the # of American calling themselves pro choice or pro life were statistically equal. However when the probed deeper they discovered that 15 % supported the current roe/wade ruling , 15 % supported a total ban on it and the remaining 70 % said abortion should be legal only in cases of rape incest, or to save the life of the mother. FYI rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother account for less than 1% of abortions. So in essence 85% of American is pro life.

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By cyrena, January 3, 2008 at 10:16 pm Link to this comment

I dunno Desertdude,

I don’t think we’re quite at the handwringing stage yet. Or, maybe I should say that we passed it long ago, so this doesn’t really change that part of it…not yet. Now, it could get to that point, (and beyond) if this Huckabee fellow actually gets any further. But for now, this isn’t a real big deal. He hasn’t won the election..just a primary poll in Iowa.

Meantime, I feel compelled to correct you on a very false assumption that you put forth here,

•  All because he believs in Jesus Christ and opposes abortion and homosexuality.

I know that I cannot speak for ALL Americans, or even most of them. However, I’ve been one (an American) long enough, (all of my life) and I’ve studied enough about my country, and my fellow citizens, to know that the concerns that you mention here, (about Huckabee) have NOTHING to do with the fact that he believes in Jesus Christ, (since most Americans –not to mention most other religious persuasions, including Islam) BELIEVE IN Jesus Christ, to some degree or another. Certainly, anyone who has ever read the New Testament, is familiar with the story of Jesus Christ, and a large percentage of Americans call themselves Christians, and follow the doctrine named after Jesus the Christ. (that would be Christianity).

So, this is an inaccurate statement, and I’d even go so far as to call it a lie.

The same applies to the very generally inclusion of his opposition to abortion and homosexuality, since they aren’t even close to the same issues. For starters, his opposition to homosexuality is unacceptable, (or should be) to ANY ‘real’ Christian, because it’s no different than him being opposed to a specific race of people, or a specific gender, or all blue-eyed people, or all people with the sickle-cell anemia trait. So on THAT issue, he’s a hypocrite, and that’s reason enough not to like him, because he CLAIMS to be a Christian. (Jesus Christ would NOT have approved of this obvious biased against one of His own, or ANY of His own).

The abortion issue is also misrepresented by you, because it has nothing to do with god, Jesus Christ, or morality. I would also argue that there are a very, very, very, limited number of reasonable thinking Americans, who APPROVE of drive-thru, on-demand abortion, just for the hell of it. We don’t ‘approve’ of chemotherapy for cancer treatment, in lieu of cancer prevention. It would be far better to detect it early, and treat it accordingly, or prevent getting it at all.

What Americans, (believers and non-believers alike) disapprove of, is the involvement of religion in matters of privacy, and we clearly disapprove of mixing the affairs of Church and State, because our Constitution prohibits that. The issue of abortion is a medical matter, and has nothing to do with the Church, or the Bible, or Jesus Christ, or Mike Huckabee. Consequently, any effort by any politician (or other member of the body politic) to enforce their medical opinions on the private lives of others, (unsolicited) is problematic.

Let me repeat that for you. I can’t imagine anyone who ‘enjoys’ the concept of abortion. It is however, a procedure that should be available to anyone who needs it, for whatever reasons, and the laws of our country guarantee that, Mike Huckabee not withstanding. In short, it’s no more his business or yours, if anyone elects to terminate a pregnancy, than it is for you to elect to have your penis cut off, if that’s what you would like to do, or there are medical or other reasons that require it.

Last but not least, PLEASE do NOT ask the Lord to ‘have mercy’ on America. If THAT worked, we wouldn’t be in the sorry ass shape of decline that we’re currently experiencing. There has been no ‘mercy’ forthcoming for America, (or any of the Cabal’s other victims) in at least 7 years now. And, it’s not for lack of people like you begging for it. So, just leave it alone, OK? We’ll work it out.

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By P. T., January 3, 2008 at 8:49 pm Link to this comment

The rich and those who shill for them, the ruling class, the elite

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By driving bear, January 3, 2008 at 8:49 pm Link to this comment

Let me welcome you to the United States of America a nation founded on God and Guns. Go Huckabee

FYI check out the totals with 96 % of the vote counted Gravel or Kucinich has yet to receive a single vote and look at democratic vote totals to those of the GOP

Here a link to the vote totals

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By Ga, January 3, 2008 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment

And just what exactly is The Establishment?

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By P. T., January 3, 2008 at 8:10 pm Link to this comment

The Establishment fears Mike Huckabee’s fundamentalist religion and populist campaign pitch.  Mitt Romney’s Mormonism seems to make him not viable.

It seems to me that in part to help ardently pro-war and pro-surge John McCain, the media is really pushing the idea that the surge in Iraq is working, even though southern Iraq (which has over 80% of the oil) has been lost to Shia militants.  And even though northern Iraq is under attack by Turkey.  If the Establishment can get the Republican race down to McCain versus Huckabee in the primaries, they can get rid of Huckabee.

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By desertdude, January 3, 2008 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

The non believing public will cry foul now. Mike will be ramming Christianity down their throats. All
because he believs in Jesus Christ and opposes abortion and homosexuality. Lord have mercy on America. All I can say is Amen.

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By cyrena, January 3, 2008 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment

I didn’t realize that he too was into the homeschooling and gun toting for all. Thought that was just a Ron Paul thing.

This is pretty scary, unless we keep in mind that it IS…Iowa.

But still, is this creepy or what?

We’ve got a population of those totin’ bibles in one hand, and guns in the other, and standard education is ‘off the table’.

Holy Shit!

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