from: #119809 by Ernest Canning on 12/12 at 3:53 pm
(1337 comments total)

“Why do you assume that because I demonstrate how utterly useless it is as an intelligence gathering tool, I would advocate torture if it could be shown to be effective?”
---------------

If you read more carefully what I wrote, you will see that I assume the opposite.

non credo, I believe I have been fairly consistent on torture.  It is illegal.  It is immoral.  Even if it were effective, it would not be justified--ever!  But the plain and simple fact is that it does not work.  The torturer can extract a confession.  The torturer has the power to kill his victim.  But because the tortured will say anything the he or she thinks his tormentor wants to hear, it is virtually useless, even in the ticking bomb scenario.  If the individual doesn’t know, he or she will make up a story about where the bomb is to be found from whole cloth. 

Why do you assume that because I demonstrate how utterly useless it is as an intelligence gathering tool, I would advocate torture if it could be shown to be effective?

The key to this story is not whether water boarding is torture or not? Or is it ethical? The real meaning is how dark the souls of Israel, Britain and the United States have become and how they will lie at all cost just as the May 15th Prophecy has prophesied

re: #119725 by Ernest Canning on 12/12 at 9:59 am:

That is all very true, Ernest.

But a refusal to allow the legalization of torture must not hinge on assertions that it doesn’t work. If someone could show you that in some particular application it “worked”, would that alter your opposition to it, Ernest? I don’t think so; you have higher ethical standards than that, judging by your writings in general.

The fact is that legalized torture, whether it “works” or not, is incompatible with any system of government that is morally acceptable to a nation which values human dignity and freedom.

For as I said below, there is no way to alter the law so as to legalize this without opening the door to tyranny, as the minions of a torturing government can always say, “We THINK there’s a ticking time bomb, and we THINK this is the only way to save the world.”

C Quil.  While I agree with your statement that waterboarding is not simulated drowning, but actual drowning, there is no guarantee that it will not kill the victim.  My father was waterboarded by the Japanese in 1942, forced to sign a false confession that he was a British agent.  He signed even though it wasn’t true and even though he thought he was being asked to sign his own death warrant.  He told me that after multiple lapses of consciousness, he was convinced he would die right then and there, and, of course, having water run up your nostrils, down your throat and into your lungs is exquisitely painful.  (Because his initial signature was so wobbly, his tormentors went to his cell the next day with a new confession; gave him the choice of signing or another round of waterboarding.  He signed.)

While I don’t have any direct statistics available, (as you can see from the recent tape destruction episode, torturers usually don’t leave a paper trail for susequent scientific study) given what I do know of anatomy, I am relatively certain that by cutting off air to the point of causing lapses in consciousness, the torturer places the tortured at risk of death, especially if the individual has a pre-existing cardiovascular or pulmonary condition.

Waterboarding is drowning that doesn’t actually kill you. It’s not “simulated” anything.

John Yoo would be okay with that, though. As long as something doesn’t kill you, then it’s not torture. 

I think I’ll go with Jonathan Turley on this one - it’s been classified as torture since the Spanish Inquisition. It’s subject to court martial and execution in the code of military justice.

Kuriakou is covering his nether regions. There are so many rats abandoning the sinking ship that they have to take numbers and wait in line. He wants a number before they stop giving them out.

What kind of a civilization needs torture to preserve it? One not worth preserving, maybe.

Senator John McCain is the definitive expert on what US policy should be regarding torture. Everyone else is either an amateur or a criminal.

#119589 by Yani on 12/11 at 8:31 pm:

My point, you moral idiot, is that anyone finding themselves in such an extraordinary situation must simply do what they believe they must, and accept the consequences.

There is no way to alter the law so as to legalize this without opening the door to tyranny, as the minions of a torturing government can always say, “We THINK there’s a ticking time bomb, and we THINK this is the only way to save the world.”

“When Bush said “We do not torture!” was he lying? “

Doesnt he Always ???

What a joke this guy is. Central casting must’ve used the Dan Ackroid special agent model. Notice the dynamic: It is torture but it is justified because it works and prevents other terrorist attacks.
That is a crock of shit. Torture has been proven not to work--the victim will say whatever the torturer wants to make the suffering stop. I was pleased to see another retired CIA agent speaking out against this character on Olberman--but the message of torture bad but neccessary had already been broadcast by the MSM. Dense, Tweety Matthews asks why they do it, if it doesn’t work. Why the hell did they invade Iraq when they has to fabricate a case to sell the public to do so?

Scott Burgwin,

I’d go further and suggest that “Yani” and “David” are in fact spooks.  How could one refer to the Pearl case as “simple.” Only a simpleton or a psyops would do that.  These spooks have unlimited and unaccountable resources to advance their demented view of “American” (see international corporations) hegemony over the world.

This guy still defends the torture that was done. I’m so sick of people proposing these “ticking time bomb"scenarios that are supposed to make us consent to legalizing torture.

Damn, if you are in such an extraordinary situation, and you really know that torture is the only way to save a gazillion people from certain incineration 30 seconds from now, GO AHEAD AND BREAK THE LAW and accept the consequences. Don’t ask society to legalize torture so that you can theoretically feel OK about doing it if this ridiculously unlikely situation arises!

There you have it.  Time to impeach, to repeal the immunity provided by the Military Commissions Act and to initiate a new Nuremberg Tribunal, this time out of Washington D.C.

Never trust anyones who’ve been working as CIA agents

When Bush said “We do not torture!” was he lying?

http://www.moonofalabama.org/ speculates this is another sort of shot across the bow from warring camps in the CIA/WH.  In this case, I don’t feel like the enemy of my enemy is my friend.  It’s more of a “hope the enemies kill eachother off” feeling.

No Surprise.  This perverse homo is a reflection of the Browns Shirts of the 30’s.  The 100 year war on terrorism will sway the weak into believing this abomination is justifiable.

Torturing U.S. occupation troops in order to gain information could save lives.

The former CIA agent is confessing to a crime.  Who at the CIA authorized him to talk, and why, despite the agreement that agents sign?  This looks like a CIA disinformation campaign.