Right on spot, Ernest. I get a bit tired of repeating the same thing to numb-nuts-nilo…YOUR INFORMATION SOURCES & LINKS ARE TAINTED. That last link doesn’t really say much except a bunch of ‘engineereze’. Just more crap designed to delay & confuse.  Just for the record I have taken the time to look at your links, and they are propagandistic garbage, nilo. INDEPENDENT doesn’t mean controlled MSM or government backed sources. The NIST have proven themselves compromised. Hell, they still haven’t provided a reasonable, rational, logical explanation why WTC #7 collapsed even six years later, so why should we accept their other suspect claims? This dog won’t hunt because it’s actually an elephant…with a poor disguise at that.

Thanks Patrick Henry. While I have seen many 911 deniers claiming it would take huge numbers of people to ‘mine’ the WTC, I have seen very little info on how many (or few) it would take to set the necessary charges. With unlimited access granted by Bush’s brother I don’t believe it would be that difficult. A few key people in key places could do a lot without the ‘underlings’ having a complete picture. A ‘need to know’ basis is the foundation of any well organized safe underground or covert operation. Resistance cells in the French underground during WWII raised this technique to a fine art.

In my last profession we had safes full of classified information with a thermite grenade attached to the top of it.  Once the pin was pulled the thermite would burn through the 4 drawer safe and burn through each of the drawers.  It was a field contingency which was very effective.  It demonstrated how effective a small amount of the thermite would act on hardened steel.

Now, I am a Union Sheet Metal Worker and cutting metal is very different than bending it. especially when it is covered with asbestos.

It would take less than 10 men 2 weeks to do 10 floors with shaped charges aka “squibs”, off hours.  The asbestos dust would be the give away as no one looks above the drop ceilings except contractors, the dust is so fine it would be everywhere.

Paul, while our resident debunker, nilbrains, continues to bombard us with propaganda, elsewhere at Truthdig’s Reports—Waterboarding Our Democracy, sdemetri has furnished the science, including:

A.  “In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to fire.”

B.  “One of the relatively few…peer-reviewed papers relating to the WTC collapses…‘An Initial Microstructural Analysis of A36 Steel from WTC Building 7’” provided an analysis that showed the “[r]apid deterioration of the steel was the result of heating with oxidation in combination with intergranular melting due to the presence of sulfur…..This strongly suggests that the temperatures in this region of the steel beam approaced ~1000 degrees by a process similary to making a ‘blacksmith’s weld’ in a hand forge.”

Smedetri notes there is no answer given for the presence of sulfer in the steel in official reports.  “Of course, there is a straightforward way to achieve 1000 degree C temperatures (and well above) in the presence of sulfure, and that is to use thermate (or a similar variation of thermite).  Thermate is a high-level thermite analog containing sulfur developed by the military.

“Finally, sulfidation was observed in structural steel samples found from both WTC7 and one of the WTC towers, as reported in Appendix C in the FEMA report….”

Quoting Professor Jones, Smedetri notes:  “While gypsum in the buildings is a source of sulfur, it is highly unlikely that this sulfur could find its way into the structural steel in such a way as to form a eutectic. The evidence for the use of some variant of thermite such as sulfur-containing thermate in the destruction of the WTC Towers and building 7 is sufficiently compelling to warrant serious investigation.”

As I noted on that same article, “The essence of the scientific method is that ‘all theories’ be they official or alternative must be subject to the same rigourous standards of examination….[W]hile there are a number of holes in competing theories—many due to the absence of an exhaustive impartial investigation—there are even greater gaping holes in the ‘official theory.’  For me, being the skeptical atheist that I am, I will not be satisfied with any of the theories advanced to explain this pivotal event absent the science to back it up.  Dismissive denigration is not science.” 

Until there is a full, open investigation by an independent scientific body made up of lawyers, judges and scientist and untainted by connections to the fascist Bush regime, a committee given full access to all classified information, there is no reason why any of us should be prepared to draw any final conclusions about this pivotal historical event.

Hot off the presses, the NIST yet again tries to explain the physics of 9/11 to the mental midgets among us who think that special effects explosives can bring down steal framed buildings.

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_12_2007.htm

The fact that they even need to do this speaks very poorly of the job that the education system is doing.

Squib. 

“A squib is a small explosive device used in a wide range of industries, from special effects to military applications. They resemble tiny sticks of dynamite in appearance and in construction, although with considerably less explosive power. Squibs can be used to generate mechanical force, as well as to provide visual pyrotechnic effects both in movies and in live theatrics. Being an explosive device, a squib releases a considerable amount of energy, and can therefore be used for shattering or propelling many different materials.[1]

A squib generally consists of a small tube filled with an explosive substance, and a detonator running through the length of its core, similar to a stick of dynamite. Also similar to dynamite, the detonator can be a slow-burning fuse, or as is more common today, a wire connected to a remote electronic trigger.[2] Squibs range in size, anywhere from 2 to 15 millimeters in diameter.”

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squib_(explosive)

I could point you towards quotes about squibs by people who actually work in the demolitions field, but i am sure you would just say that they are in on the conspiracy. 

So tell me, exactly how many 15 millimeter diameter squibs would you need to cut through even one of the core supports of either WTC 1 or 2?

I can not wait to hear you insane and illogical response.

Paul, you gotta love Orwellians like nilbrains.  Although ground zero was not merely a crime scene thoroughly trampled on but one in which all of the evidence was removed “before” the sham investigation by the administration’s handpicked “Commission” was even formed, he runs around screaming, where’s your evidence?

PatrickHenry:

“Gravity, after the squibs cut the structural members.”

Seriously, thats a joke right?  You are trying to be funny?  Dear god i hope so.  Where is the thermite in this case?

re: #120165 by niloroth

Gravity, after the squibs cut the structural members.

#120017 by Robert on 12/13 at 1:58 pm
(607 comments total)

“Ernest…don’t worry about this “nil-rot”; he/she is just spewing garbage. He/she reminds me of “lilmamzer”.”

Very good observation, and I know who you mean. In fact they could even be the same person. Both screen names/people thrive on being the meaningless, trifling, & diversionary while hiding behind the obscurity of non-sensical pseudonyms.

All these un-American un-patriotic elements in place need to keep in mind that just as the MCA (Military Commissions Act) of 2006 granted immunity, the previous CPA (Coalition Provisional Authority) granted immunity, and the attempts at retroactive immunity for communications companies that violate our privacy, they all can also be rescinded…and should be.

It’s just like a bumper sticker I saw awhile ago that read, “Tell the truth and you don’t have to remember what you said”. Mr. “I can’t remember” Gonzales is their poster child, but I would expect he understands that even after leaving office (or especially) he is still subject to prosecution for criminal acts.

Americans constantly need reminding these inhumane, illegal, unconscionable acts have been done in ‘our’ name, and stay pissed off enough to ensure all these internal American enemies are held accountable for their activities. This includes quislings, collaborators, and active participants of any stripe. This is not vengence, but justice.

Okay, so i am just curious, if WTC 1 & 2 didn’t come down as the nist says they did, how did they collapse?  Could you maybe figure out which of the methods in this diagram was used?

http://depletedcranium.com/?p=230

Please note that at the bottom of the page all those theories are linked. 

Seriously, if you are at all interested in putting the truth out there, this should be a really simple start for you all.

thanks in advance.

1dree5 & goffredo—I appreciate your sentiments, but I think we are getting to the point of overkill.  As soon as I began to realize what nilbrains was—a disengenous sociopathic Orwellian, I stopped trying to convince him of anything, allowed him enough rope to hang himself, then set the record straight, exposing nilbrains for exactly what he is—a shameless fraud.  Since that time nilbrain’s mumblings have been about as effective as a sling shot against a tank. 

The substance on this post was provided by the well thought-out comments from PaulMagillSmith, Cyrena and especially Robert, who has a brilliant knack for coming up with links that are both poignant and educational.

With nilbrains already chopped down to the point that he would have to need a ladder to spit over a curb, I really don’t think it productive to keep piling on.  His posts are beneath our scorn at this point.  They are simply irrelevant, and should be treated as such.

You guys are going at him all wrong.  He is stuck believing what this administration (PROVEN WITH EVIDENCE-OR LACK THEREOF -TO HAVE LIED NUMEROUS TIMES) has produced as being truth.
That being said, any link or hint of information he relays should not be taken seriously.  We shouldn’t even have this debate until perhaps February of 2009.  Burned tapes, deleted e-mails, problems with recollection…we would need Colombo, Macgyver AND Charlie’s Angels to get all this information back.

The guy’s a lemming trying to vomit what he hears between 11AM and 1PM.
He is the little kid stopping his feet and covering his ears…kind of like Bill O’Reilly.

Cyrena:

“Besides, I don’t argue over facts in evidence.”

Well, that about sums your stance up.  You have no evidence, and no facts to back up your assertions.  I have repeatedly asked for evidence of explosives used in the destruction of the WTC’s, and i have never had anyone present me any. 

I have continually provided references and citations to all the statements i have made.  Can anyone dispute that fact at least? 

I think you folks are getting me all wrong.  i am not a fan of Bush, i have never voted for a republican canidate for president, i have only voted for one republican for senate, and he is one of the few politicians who i think is an honestly good person, regardless of political affiliation.  Other than that, i consider myself a left leaning independent.  I am, on a daily basis, horrified by the actions of this current administration.  But, while i despise these people, i can not, as much as i would like to, pin the blame for 9/11 on them.  And i have yet to see any evidence that anyone else can either.  I personally feel very sad about the fact that there are a great many people out there who are being lied to, and are as such wasting all their energy and motivation on something that is a shoddily propped up lie. 

So when i ask for evidence, i am not lying, i would love to see it, but so far i have seen nothing that is even close to convincing.  The fact of the mater is that i have most likely seen and researched the 9/11 truth position more than anyone else on this site.  I would say, having seen the arguments put forth by you folks, that i am far better prepared to make your case than you are, the only difference is that i have also looked at the other side.  And i hate you break it to you, but the evidence lines up with the official version far better than it does with the conspiracy version.  So while we (and i mean the rational memebers of the opposition to this administration) are out working to change things, you (the people sucked into the tin foil hat conspiracy theories) can continue to turn people off to our message.  So ask yourself, who is really helping the bush administration out?

Ernest, Cyrena & Paul:

Many thanks for your comments. I can see clearly that we have common goals & objectives. We value TRUTH and integrity.

Your efforts and persistence to reveal the TRUTH are clearly visible in your comments. I read your comments one by one and I just want to say that you are remarkable individuals.

Ernest…don’t worry about this “nil-rot”; he/she is just spewing garbage. He/she reminds me of “lilmamzer”.

Cyrena…No need to pay me at all. I can tell that you have a golden heart. And that is enough for me.

Paul…keep up the good work and you are right about “word of mouth salesmen/women for the truth”. Each one of us can make a big contribution for standing up and conveying the TRUTH. Our AIPAC controlled News Media have their own agendas and most of what they convey is far away from the truth.

Guys…keep up the good work and don’t let “nil-rot” sidetrack you with his garbage.

#119964 by niloroth

Nope nimrod,

I’m not one of your detainees, so I’m not confessing to anything under your particular brand of torture. Besides, I don’t argue over facts in evidence.

It is what it is nilo. He said it. And at this stage of the game, it doesn’t really matter now, does it?

Meantime, your stuff is just soooo repetitious and boring. Nobody has avoided your questions like the plague, even though at this point, they certainly SHOULD.

Your MO is the same old shit over and over again. You want other folks to bring you evidence of the truth, even though they have, over and over and over again. Accepting that you are not stupid, (though something is clearly very dysfunctional with you) we know that you have to have some motive in mind for continuing to engage people in the same old stuff of ‘proving’ that the WTC was taken out by explosive demolition, and NOT by airplanes flying into those towers.

But you see nimrod, that’s already been done, over and over and over again. So, we KNOW the truth, and it really doesn’t MATTER what YOU think!! In other words I certainly don’t care what you think, and from the looks of things, neither does anyone else. We’ve already figured out what your deal is.

So, the best you can do is lurk around like the troll that you are, and try to attack new folks, to suck them into your sick little pastimes. I have NO idea what you gain from this, unless you just need other people to do your research for you, or unless you’re keeping a list of people who actually know the truth, so you can turn it over to your employers. Is that the plan? Do you wanna find out how many folks have finally caught on, and how much any of them might know, individually or collectively? Are you planning a massive rendition of all truthdig posters, so you can torture us for additional info, or more than likely, just get rid of us because dead men/woman tell no tales? Too late. You’ll never get us all. The inside job of 9/11 is no secret.

So, obviously, we know a whole hell of a lot, and more and more comes to the surface every day. Kind of like your hero admitting just days ago, about the NIE report on Iran. Oh yes, the neoconners did indeed HOWL when the truth came out about THAT, but even chainey had to admit that there was no way to keep it a secret, (even though he certainly tried) because he had to admit that it would eventually leak out anyway, and then look all the worse. (although I don’t know how THAT’S possible).

Still, it IS curious that you continue to engage in this, since it’s too late to convince any of us of a truth that’s long been exposed, no matter how much you try to nitpick the insignificant details. In reality, all you do is bring out more and more of the truth, for all the world to see. (or at least anybody that reads these blogs). So, is that your ‘true’ purpose? No, I doubt you’re that sophisticated. More like just the occasional psychopath that crosses our paths. So, since we can’t force you to go away, we’ll just ignore you. Or, at least I will. Besides, it’s fun to listen the other bloggers expose you for what you are anyway.

Cyrena, Robert & Paul:  Have you noticed how exposure of nilbrain’s perfidy has reduced his posts to impotent mumblings?

Cyrena, one word in particular from your excellent post sums up our resident debunker, nilbrains—Perfidy!

Paul, first things first.  We, the progressive patriots, need to continue to pressure Congress to take up impeachment.  As Paul Craig Roberts, the former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, warns us, the People of the United States need to begin to appreciate the level of Cheney’s ruthlessness.  There is every reason to believe that, if he can, he will push us into a war with Iran, then use the ensuing blowback, coupled with perhaps a new 9/11 to get dubya-the-dunce to declare a national emergency under the continuity of government executive orders now in place which would lead to suspending the constitution and the November 2008 elections, shutting down Congress and realizing his ultimate goal of unchecked, unending power.  We already know that he and dubya are guilty of war crimes.  If the current regime should leave office and if the mounting evidence were to establish his complicity in 9/11 not even the retroactive immunity that mangy dog Alberto Gonzales secured from a then Republican-controlled Congress in the form of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 would save Cheney from the same fate that awaited Saddam Hussein.

(I read one commentators observation that Cheney’s greatest accomplishment has been his ability to allow dubya to wake up each morning thinking he is actually in charge.)

Senator Biden has taken the position that impeachment must be taken up if the regime invades Iran.  But Kucinich has countered that if we wait until then, it may be too late.  Impeachment may well be the only legal tool available for defending what is left of our constitutional democracy, yet Nancy impeachment-is-off-the-table Pelosi seems more concerned about shielding her own complicity in the torture scandal and trolling for corporate dollars needed to win the next election which may never be held to even consider placing impeachment where it belongs, on-the-table.

yawn.

Still waiting for someone to point to some proof of explosives in the WTC’s.  How about maybe you find me a deomlitions expert who supports that theory that explosives brought down WTC 1, 2, and 7?  Or maybe some info on ernest’s supposed 4.2 second collapse. 

And hey, cyrena, good to see you again, you going to fess up to having lied about that pearl harbor quote yet?  Or maybe a reasponse to all those NTSB reports you said didn’t exist, and then i found for you?  Or any of the other items i have challenged you on, and you have ignored like the plague? 

Just to touch on the architects and engineers for truth group.  They might hold some weight when they comprise more than 0.007% of their respective professions.  But don’t count on it any time soon, especially as they have just become aware of the fact that debunkers were signing up as credentialed engineers and architects simply to prove that they did zero checking of credentials.

Thanks, Cyrena, and I wish I could come over for some gumbo, sounds great. In addition to owning the seafood market (sold it in ‘83 and moved from VA to Indiana to get my first degree) I also supervised the kitchen in a 140 seat seafood restaurant before that. (I joke sometimes I’ve killed a million crabs, but don’t say that too much anymore because Bush probably brags about killing a million Iraqis…sick joke). Back in VA now, and after debilitating brain surgery (physically NOT mentally), another degree from VCU, and the trevails of being one of the tens of millions of the impoverished non-elite, now set up concerts & festivals mostly for non-profits doing benefits for worthy causes. I’m well below the poverty line, but I must love the life I lead because I keep doing it. What more can one ask? At least I can sleep nights with a clear conscience, right?

So Robert, cyrena, shenonymous, Ernest, and all you other posting American patriots…What do you suggest? Violence won’t work, and obviously politics & elections are a sham, so where do we go from here? BTW, cyrena, I’ve done battle with nilo-numb-nuts on some other threads, too, and very early realized someone must be paying him to propound his lunacy. I think we should all just make an effort to not get sucked in, post something to the neophytes to not pick a fight with him regardless of how looney his posts might seem, and just ignore him…reasonable? It seems the best way to destroy his intent is relegate him to the bullshit ineffective file and move on. He might be one of many, but thankfully they are headed toward extinction, and like dinosaurs don’t realize it yet. In the long run lies will never triumph over truth. They’re ‘dead men/women walking’ just haven’t fallen down yet.

#119900 by PaulMagillSmith
•  Thanks Ernest & Robert for your posts, and Cyrena I’m glad you stuck around and waded through the nilo BS.
Hi Paul, good to hear from you again, and your posts are excellent. Now, I have to admit, that I haven’t even waded through that much of nimrods (that’s my own name for nilobrains) stuff this time around, other than to delight in all of the other responses to him. I’ve even reposted a few that I was really impressed with. All I can say this time around, is that you all (you, Ernest, Robert) have done all of the work. I’ve already done my time with the moron, and quite honestly, you guys do a better job. He just pisses me off, because I always (I don’t know why) begin communicating with people as if they have a least the basic level of reason AND common decency. Like, can you connect basic dots, and do you have any level of integrity or even a whimpering of morality in your being. I assume that most people do. And, generally, I’m right. MOST people do. But, not the nilo-nimrods of the world.
That said, I wasted far too much time on him before, so I’ve not much bothered this time; EXCEPT to note what Ernest has so well articulated, that I wish I’d realized long before I wasted my own time on the other threads. This specifically (and you’ve basically said the same):

#119659 by Ernest Canning

•  …”His conflation of fact is not the result of a lack of intelligence but is based instead on calculated and willful distortion—“…

Now THIS says it all. Nimrod simply cannot be THAT stupid, (and that’s pretty much what I had supposed earlier on, although I suspected some sort of personality disorder as well). And, he may well have that, but this isn’t a result of stupidity, but rather it IS highly calculated, and I’m grateful to Ernest for putting it so succinctly.

This one REALLY made me laugh…

#119585 by Ernest Canning
•  See what I mean, Paul.  The moron actually thinks he has won, when all he has done is set forth his official MSNBC version of the events, ignoring basic science.  He reminds me of the guy you get into checkmate in four moves, then holds up his hands, shouting gleefully, I win!”...

Ernest, don’t EVER let me or Shenonymous, or anyone else accuse you of not having a sense of humor. This is hilarious and SO on target!! Sounds like the same kind of moron who walks along the beach and stubs his toe, and then shakes his fist at a seagull 2 miles out and says, “see what you made me do!” But, the deceit and perfidy is definitely there, so it shouldn’t be ignored. Rather, the word-of-mouth warning just has to be repeated from time to time for the newcomers.

Speaking of which, I sure wish I had some of your fish right about now. I made a trip to my local place earlier, only to discover that two of the items were missing from the bag when I got it home. But, I’m gonna hang in there until I finish up my term work tomorrow, and then I’ve got all the fixings for a Super Gumbo. (still need to get the crab, but otherwise, I’m good to go.)

Anyway, nilo-nim is very obvious in his technique to distract by stupid nitpicking, (like 8 seconds v 4 seconds). I mean really, what building completely collapses in less than a MILLION seconds, unless it’s either blown up, or subjected to a 99.9 point earthquake? And, while Dr. Jones makes the clear point that the terrorists had no way/access/tools/knowledge to plant the required explosives, (which is true) even he is overly intelligent for the lame ass official story, that doesn’t even acknowledge that they were blown up!!

They want us to believe that airplanes caused all of that damage in less than the blink of an eye. That’s what I could never understand. Why didn’t they make the official lie at least a bit more plausible? Why not blame al-Qaeda for planting the explosives, since they were blaming them for all of these other unbelievable maneuvers? They think the rest of us are as stupid as they are!!

Thanks Ernest & Robert for your posts, and Cyrena I’m glad you stuck around and waded through the nilo BS. What it boils down to is these people in denial either just don’t ‘get it’, or are paid not to. I agree with you Ernest; nil for brains is in the second category. Lame attempts, backed up only with MSM or gov sources have no credibility.

Do you remember after Bush 41 left office there was talk of criminal charges leveled against him regarding cocaine distribution conspiracy? It didn’t happen, but I don’t think 43 will get off so easy because he has so thoroughly pissed off so many people. We can’t let these monsters get away with this. They have flipped us the bird while purloining not only the treasury, but the finances of future generations. For justice to have any meaning these criminal psychopaths must be hounded to the ends of earth & time until they are run to ground.

The question is not what they did, or even how they did it. That is pretty obvious except to illinformed fools who don’t recognize the looming threat to all of us. We also know what must be done, but the question has resolved itself to HOW?

I used to own a seafood market, and when it first opened I advertised for the first couple weeks in the local paper. I stopped wasting that money, relying instead on word-of-mouth. It’s the most powerful of sales devices, because once a person is convinced by a friend of the integrity of an establishment not only does the reputation of the information (tip) giver rise, the business also gains a loyal customer. In two years I quadrupled sales.

I mention this because this seems to be where we are at in the present moment…word-of-mouth salesmen/women for the truth.

Time is a dichotomy: it is our friend and enemy. The JFK assassination was decades ago, but is still relevant because indications are a number of the same people involved, or their protegees, were engaged in the acts of 911. Many years have passed since Dallas, and the Warren report is the same BS whitewash cover-up as the 911 Commission report. Time is our enemy in regard to the JFK job, but in the ensuing time communications have improved such that time became our friend.

Time has become our friend in a weird way regarding 911. It has allowed us to communicate our suspicions & gather more evidence. The hot blooded distrust of this administration has now (through time) become a cold blooded resolve for justice. Our ranks grow daily, but they still aren’t sufficient to re-balance the scales.

This administration and their cohorts are pressed now for time, and just like a collective cornered rat they can’t afford the public attack cat to get even one claw in them or they are done for. Expect the rat to try to bite before the end of next year because that is all they have left to do. I think when something drastic happens soon, we should all turn our eyes toward Isreal, masters of the ‘false flag operation’.

Be aware, and pass your awareness on by word-of-mouth. When they see they were told the truth about how good our fish is we will win the day.

#119832 by Ernest Canning on 12/12 at 5:50 pm

....“Robert, as always you prove a master at finding the most relevant link.”...

==============================

I just wanted to add my AMEN to this. It’s true. Robert, you’re an ACE at this. I almost feel like we should be paying you.

Since I can’t afford it, I’ll just say THANKS…again!!

And more from Robert’s excellent link:

“In late 2004, a group of 25 intelligence serve and law enforcement veterans sent a joint letter to Congress expressing concerns about ‘serious shortcomings,’ ‘omissions’ and ‘major flaws’ in the 9/11 Commission Report.”

The seven CIA veterans featured in the link include Ray McGovern, who personally delivered intel briefings to Reagan and Bush I.  McGovern wrote “It has long been clear that the Bush-Cheney administration cynically exploited the attacks of 9/11 to promote its imperial designs.  But the present volume [refering to “American Empire” by David Ray Griffin & Peter Dale Scott] confronts us with evidence for an even more disturbing conclusion:  that the 9/11 attacks were themselves orchestrated by the administration precisely so they could be exploited.”

William Christianson, a 29 year CIA veteran described the 9/11 Commission Report as a “joke” and “not a serious piece of analysis at all.”  He noted that there is “a strong body of evidence showing the official U.S. Government story of what happened on September 11, 2001 to be almost certainly a monstrous series of lies.”—monstrous lies I might add that our resident debunker, nilbrains, continues to endorse.  Christianson adds:  “An airliner almost certainly did not hit the Pentagon….The North and South Towers of the World Trade Center almost certainly did not collapse and fall to earth because hijacked aircraft hit them.”

Melvin Goodman, PhD, a former senior CIA analyst referred to the 9/11 Commission Report as a “coverup.”

Robert, also from your excellent link is the following petition to Congress signed by over two hundred architects & engineers

“On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architechts and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01—specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC 7.”

But of course we can all ignore those 200 architects and engineers because our resident debunker, nilbrains, who never provided his or her creditials, says there is no basis for questioning the official conspiracy theory.

Robert, as always you prove a master at finding the most relevant link.  Here are a few excerpts from one segment of that link, pertaining to the 8 Senior Republican Appointees who challenge the official theory.

Paul Craig Roberts, Ass. Sec. of Treasury, Reagan admin.  “I find the facts against the official story of the [WTC]= buildings’ collapse more compelling that the case that has been made in behalf of the official story.”

Catherine Austin Fitts, form Ass. Sec. Housing, Bush I admin.  “The official story could not possibly have happened.  In other words, what the administration has put forward is essentially a conspiracy theory that does not conform to the facts.  It’s not possible.  It’s not operationally feasible….The Commission was a whitewash.”

She adds, “We have watched the US government suppress facts and restrict…the 9-11 Commission’s access to information.  We have watched the 9-11 Commission fail to answer unaswered questions and concede to official suppression….We have noted the material omissions of the corporate media.  Something does not add up.”

The link notes:  “WTC 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds….However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission’s ‘full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.’”

Video of WTC 7 collapse at http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/WTC7 Collapse.wmv

Col. Ronald Ray (USMC), Asst. Sec. Def., Reagan admin., described the official 9/11 theory as “the dog that doesn’t hunt….I’m astounded that the conspiracy theory advanced by the administration could in fact be true and the evidence does not seem to suggest that that’s accurate.”

Barbara Honegger, Special Ass. to Chief Domestic Policy Advisor and W.H. Policy Analyst, Reagan admin.  “The US military and intelligence community, not al Qaeda, had the sustained access weeks before 9/11 to also plant controlled demolition charges throughout the superstructures of WTC [1, 2 & 7] which brought down three buildings on 9/11.”  She adds, “A US military plane, not one piloted by al Qaeda, performed the highly skilled, steep, high-speed 270 to 330-degree dive towards the Pentagon that Dulles Air Traffic Controllers were sure was a military aircraft [which]...would have given off the “Friendly” signal needed to disable the Pentagon’s anti-aircraft missile batteries as it approached the building.  Only the US military, not al Qaeda, had the ability to break all of its Standard Operating Procedures to paralyze its own emergency response systems on 9/11.”

RECENT ARTICLES:

Eight Senior Republican Administration Appointees Challenge Official Account of 9/11 – “Not Possible”, “a Whitewash”, “False” 

Dec. 4, 2007  

Seven CIA Veterans Challenge 9/11 Commission Report – Official Account of 9/11 a “Joke” and a “Cover-up”

Sep. 23, 2007     PDF Version     Article on OpEdNews

Engineers and Architects
Question the 9/11 Commission Report

Many engineers and architects have expressed significant criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report.  Several even allege government complicity in the terrible acts of 9/11.  This section is a collection of their public statements.  This website is not an organization and it should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this website.

Listed below are statements by more than 270 engineers and architects that contradict or are critical of the 9/11 Commission Report.  Their collective voices give credibility to the claim that the 9/11 Commission Report is tragically flawed.

These individuals cannot be simply dismissed as irresponsible believers in some 9/11 conspiracy theory. Their sincere concern, backed by their professional responsibilities related to building design, construction, and other areas of engineering, demonstrates that criticism of the Commission Report is not inherently irresponsible or illogical, and that, in fact, it can be just the opposite.

If you are an engineer or architect who has concerns about the 9/11 Commission Report and would like your comment added to this website, please contact me.

    Thanks,  Alan Miller   alan.miller (at) PatriotsQuestion911 (dot) com

Contact Your Local 9/11 Truth Group!

Demand a New 9/11 Investigation!

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

ARCHITECTS AND CIVIL AND STRUCTURAL ENGINEERS

Richard Gage

Richard Gage, AIA, Architect
 
Richard Gage, AIA, Architect – Member, American Institute of Architects.  A practicing Architect for 20 years who has worked on most types of building construction including numerous fire-proofed steel-framed buildings.  Founding member of Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

  * Speech at Sonoma State University 4/20/07: “Another 2006 poll by Scripps Howard, Ohio University, which found that a shocking 16% believe that the World Trade Center’s Twin Towers were brought down by explosives.  Unfortunately, my research has also concluded that this is true.  Tonight I will present to you the very clear evidence that all three World Trade Center high-rise buildings, the Twin Towers and Building 7 were destroyed not by fire as our government has told us, but by controlled demolition with explosives.” http://ae911truth.org/aboutus.php

  * Editor’s note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories, and was not hit by an airplane.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission’s “full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks.”  Watch the collapse video here.  And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.

  * Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 200 Architects and Engineers:

    “On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7.” http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php

  * Founding Member, Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth Association Statement: “We are a non-partisan association of Architects, Engineers, and affiliates, who are dedicated to exposing the falsehoods and to revealing truths about the ‘collapses’ of the WTC high-rises on 9/11/01.”

  * Member: Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice   Association Statement: “Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice is a non-partisan organization consisting of independent researchers and activists engaged in uncovering the true nature of the September 11, 2001 attacks.”

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html

Ernest:

“I haven’t taken the time to go back over the more than one hour presentation by Dr. Jones to verify whether it was 4.2 seconds or 8 seconds or some variation.  Either time limit would not negate the physics of the sudden freefall in which WTC 7 collapsed into its own footprint.

Since my original post of 4.2 seconds was based solely on memory of a video presentation I had watched some months ago, I would be the first to admit that I could have been mistaken.  So what? “

Are you serious?  first off, you were pulling that 4.2 second timing out of your memory?  Really?  That is about the weakest thing i have ever heard.  Why not just say you made it up?  And no, you were not the first to admit you were mistaken.  In fact, you made that assertion (without any tangible evidence now it seems) more than once.  No wonder you can not produce any evidence of it.  You might be the most ill prepared truther i have ever encountered. 

And I note you use the term freefall in relation to the collapse, but say that the timing does not matter.  I hate to break it to you, but then dealing with the fall speed of a building, and claiming demolitions were used, the speed of the fall has everything to do with your case.  Especially if you start using words like freefall.  Do i need to explain this to you now as well?

Larry Silverstein, WTC 7,
and the 9/11 Demolition

The Salomon Solution; A Building Within a Building
WTC 7 was a very solid construction
9/11/2001 radio broadcast: “We were just sitting here watching all the smoke pouring up from
number 7 ... we really couldn’t see much damage on it ... I turned in time to see what looked like a skyscraper implosion, it looked like it had been done by a demolition crew ... that’s number 1,
number 2, and now number 7 that have come down from this explosion and folks just simply can’t believe it. ... I just never for the life of me imagined that these huge buildings would just fall, and that’s what happened, they just crumbled.” [338kB wma download]

The above photograph shows fires in World Trade Center 7 at roughly 3 p.m., as does this wmv video of the building.

If the FEMA collapse report were true then the fires shown would have been burning throughout entire floors, not just in a few rooms.
  Larry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish WTC 7 late in the afternoon of 9/11. In the documentary “America Rebuilds”, aired September 2002, Silverstein makes the following statement;

“I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, ‘We’ve had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.’ And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.” [wmv download]

In the same program a cleanup worker referred to the demolition of WTC 6: “... we’re getting ready to pull the building six.” [wmv download]

There can be little doubt as to how the word “pull” is being used in this context.

Note how WTC 6 collapses - straight down, lots of dust

Silverstein’s “Pull It” Explanation Examined
The building fire alarm system [for WTC 7] was placed on TEST for a period of 8 h beginning at 6:47:03 a.m. on September 11, 2001. Ordinarily, this is requested when maintenance or other testing is being performed on the system, so that any alarms that are received from the system are considered the result of the maintenance or testing and are ignored. [NIST]
After the initial blast [Flight 11 hitting WTC 1], Housing Authority worker Barry Jennings, 46, reported to a command center on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center. He was with Michael Hess, the city’s corporation counsel, when they felt and heard another explosion. First calling for help, they scrambled downstairs to the lobby, or what was left of it. “I looked around, the lobby was gone. It looked like hell,” Jennings said. [Traverse City Record Eagle 9/11/2001]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html

nilbrains, I haven’t taken the time to go back over the more than one hour presentation by Dr. Jones to verify whether it was 4.2 seconds or 8 seconds or some variation.  Either time limit would not negate the physics of the sudden freefall in which WTC 7 collapsed into its own footprint.

Since my original post of 4.2 seconds was based solely on memory of a video presentation I had watched some months ago, I would be the first to admit that I could have been mistaken.  So what?

There is a major distinction between good faith error and dissembling, which is what you did in conflating the very information that you yourself posted from the wikipedia reference—information reflecting that Prof. Jones most definitely did “not” voluntarily resign to avoid peer review—which was precisely the claim you made and which is refuted by the very wikipedia reference you post.  That post not only belies the assertion that Prof. Jones was trying to avoid peer review, it raises a substantial question that his “accepting a retirement” can be considered a voluntary action vs. a decision which was forced upon him by the same BYU administrators who had forced him onto leave status and forced him to remove his article from the school’s web site.

You knew all that, but went ahead and made your bogus point in the hopes that it would somehow discredit Professor Jones academic study of the WTC 7 because the other references you post, while setting forth much weaker alternative theories, certainly do not refute Dr. Jones’s academic presentation. 

There are only two possible explanations for what you did.  Either you are (a) incredibly stupid and actually believe your conflation of the facts or (b) you are an Orwellian sociopath who has made a calculated and wilful distortion as part of a project for discrediting any who question the official theory of 9/11.  From reading your many posts, I am convinced that category (a) does not apply to you.  That leaves category (b).

As I am sure other posters who have been confronted by your debunking campaign will agree, I have your number.  I’ve measured you up.  You have no credibility.  There is absolutely nothing you can say or do at this point to restore that credibility.

ernest:

Oh, good come back.  It was fact filled, and referenced very fully.  Man, you sure showed me.

ps. where is the video of a 4.1 second collapse?  Yeah, still have yet to see that.  So far it is only in your brain i guess.  Funny how i say 8 seconds, and point you to a copy of it, while you say 4.1 seconds, and don’t have squat to back that claim up.

nilbrains, you can’t change substance by using bold type.  Your dishonesty has been exposed.  Now go away!

Doh!  jumped the gun an posted before i was done, more comming soon, but that should give you an idea of the content of my next post.  Seriously, how can you live with yourself while being so dishonest?

Ernest:

All of these quotes in bold from the wikipedia article at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

(Please note that i correctly linked to it.)

The rest of the quotes are your comments.

“In post #119126 I posted a cite to wikipedia, specifically noting that Jones had already submitted his paper to peer review; that it was published but not in a peer review journal”

“Jones maintains that the paper was peer-reviewed prior to publication, though it has never been published in an independent peer-reviewed journal.”

He has never supported his claim that it was peer reviewed, and in this context it would have to have been published in a journal to have been peer reviewed. 

“that Jones came under tremendous pressure from BYU for his courageous willingness to present his scientific article, being forced to pull it from the BYU web site and being forced onto leave.”

“Jones’ placement on paid leave drew criticism from the American Association of University Professors and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education. Both organizations are long time critics of BYU’s record on academic freedom.[30] Jones “welcomed the review” because he hoped it would “encourage people to read his paper for themselves,” however the review was abandoned when Jones elected to retire, effective January 1, 2007.”
 

He has never supported his claim that it was peer reviewed, and in this context it would have to have been published in a journal to have been peer reviewed.

911 Demo: BYU’s
Prof Jones Has Wide Academic Support

BYU Professor Has Plenty of Company in the Academic Community,
Including 60 Faculty Members from Two Utah Universities
Who Concur a Controlled Demolition Most Likely Brought
Down the WTC and Further Investigation Is Needed

By Greg Szymanski
11-15-5

Professor Steven E. Jones is another in the long line of conservatives in the political and academic world joining the 9/11 truth movement and asking to open up further investigations on the true cause of 9/11.

The BYU physics professor who believes the WTC collapsed from a controlled demolition isn’t alone in the academic community, as a group of more than 60 colleagues from two universities also agreed with Professor Steven E. Jones’ conclusions.
Jones told the Arctic Beacon Saturday in a telephone conversation from Provo, Utah, he first presented his explosive conclusions at Brigham Young University (BYU) on September 22, to 60 people from the BYU and Utah Valley State College faculties, including professors of Engineering, Electrical Engineering, Geology, Mathematics and Psychology.
After presently scientific arguments in favor of the controlled demolition theory, Jones said everyone in attendance from all backgrounds, conservative and liberal, were in total agreement further investigation was needed.
“I was quite surprised how my conclusions were received,” said Jones, adding he plans to give two continue telling the public how he came to his startling conclusions essentially ripping apart the official government story that jet fuel brought down the towers, including Building 7.
“In fact, after I researched how Building 7 fell, I am certain there existed pre-positioned explosives to bring down the three buildings.”
Jones added that the contingent of faculty members at the September seminar were all in agreement that the government needed to “come clean” and release more that 6,900 photographs and close to 7,000 segments of video footage, now being held from independent investigation by the FBI and other agencies.
Since day one, the Bush administration has safely guarded much of the 9/11evidence, including the WTC steel hauled away by FEMA and eye-witness testimony of basement explosions censored by the 9/11 Commission and the state sponsored press, as well as discrediting many other scientists or academics like Jones who have disagreed with the official story.
“We are calling for the release of all the data, including the videos and photos, in order that a cross-disciplinary, preferably international team of scientists and engineers can reach an independent conclusion,” said Jones, adding all 60 professors in attendance agreed with this course of action.
“Since I decided to come forward with my findings, I have found the people in the 9/11 community very supportive and helpful. I hope my contribution will one day help get at the truth of what really happened and specifically how the towers collapsed.”

http://www.rense.com/general68/demo.htm

(Part II)

“Jones’ theory on the way the towers collapsed was presented in a 9,000 word formal paper already approved for publication in an upcoming academic journal. The following is a partial explanation of how and why he came to his conclusions that the WTC most likely collapsed due to pre-positioned explosives. He writes:
“In writing this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC 7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by damage and fires, but through the use of pre-positioned explosives.
“I consider the official FEMA, NIST, and 9-11 Commission reports that fires plus damage alone caused complete collapses of all three buildings. And I present evidence for the explosive-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government.
And the reasoning behind his conclusions can be summed up as follows:
* The three buildings collapsed nearly symmetrically, falling down into their footprints, a phenomenon associated with “controlled demolition” - and even then it’s very difficult, he says. “Why would terrorists undertake straight-down collapses of WTC-7 and the Towers when ‘toppling over’ falls would require much less work and would do much more damage in downtown Manhattan?” Jones asks. “And where would they obtain the necessary skills and access to the buildings for a symmetrical implosion anyway? The ‘symmetry data’ emphasized here, along with other data, provide strong evidence for an ‘inside’ job.”
* No steel-frame building, before or after the WTC buildings, has ever collapsed due to fire. But explosives can effectively sever steel columns, he says.”

(continued above)

“* WTC 7, which was not hit by hijacked planes, collapsed in 6.6 seconds, just .6 of a second longer than it would take an object dropped from the roof to hit the ground. “Where is the delay that must be expected due to conservation of momentum, one of the foundational laws of physics?” he asks. “That is, as upper-falling floors strike lower floors - and intact steel support columns - the fall must be significantly impeded by the impacted mass. . . . How do the upper floors fall so quickly, then, and still conserve momentum in the collapsing buildings?” The paradox, he says, “is easily resolved by the explosive demolition hypothesis, whereby explosives quickly removed lower-floor material, including steel support columns, and allow near free-fall-speed collapses.” These observations were not analyzed by FEMA, NIST nor the 9/11 Commission, he says.
* With non-explosive-caused collapse there would typically be a piling up of shattering concrete. But most of the material in the towers was converted to flour-like powder while the buildings were falling, he says. “How can we understand this strange behavior, without explosives? Remarkable, amazing - and demanding scrutiny since the U.S. government-funded reports failed to analyze this phenomenon.”
* Horizontal puffs of smoke, known as squibs, were observed proceeding up the side the building, a phenomenon common when pre-positioned explosives are used to demolish buildings, he says.
* Steel supports were “partly evaporated,” but it would require temperatures near 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit to evaporate steel - and neither office materials nor diesel fuel can generate temperatures that hot. Fires caused by jet fuel from the hijacked planes lasted at most a few minutes, and office material fires would burn out within about 20 minutes in any given location, he says.
* Molten metal found in the debris of the World Trade Center may have been the result of a high-temperature reaction of a commonly used explosive such as thermite, he says. Buildings not felled by explosives “have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal,” Jones says.
* Multiple loud explosions in rapid sequence were reported by numerous observers in and near the towers, and these explosions occurred far below the region where the planes struck, he says.”

http://www.rense.com/general68/demo.htm

Paul, let’s just take just one of nilbrains distortions.  In post #118963 he wrote that Prof. Jones resigned rather than submit his papers for peer review.  Sounds like Jones never submitted his papers for peer review and resigned “because” he wanted to avoid peer review, right?

In post #119126 I posted a cite to wikipedia, specifically noting that Jones had already submitted his paper to peer review; that it was published but not in a peer review journal; that Jones came under tremendous pressure from BYU for his courageous willingness to present his scientific article, being forced to pull it from the BYU web site and being forced onto leave.

In post #119121 nilbrains responded by noting that the wikipedia reference stated that “the review was abandoned when Jones elected to retire, effective Jan. 1, 2007.” 

This isolated passage does not show that Jones (a) resigned—he accepted a retirement, or that (b) he retired “because” he wished to avoid peer review.  It merely demonstrates that his retirement, one that the modern-day fascists in academia have forced upon academic critics of the regime at a number of institutions (e.g., Ward Churchill, Norm Finkelstein) had the impact of ending Jones’s quest for publication in a peer reviewed journal at BYU.  (What we don’t know is the details of the discussions between Jones and BYU administrators—though considering the context of a forced leave, preventing him from teaching, his accepting a retirement may well have been, for Dr. Jones, the only option available for him short of being fired.  A forced retirement is the substantive equivalent to being fired.)

Finally, in post #119566 nilbrains conflates the entire issue, stating that I “attempted to support that Jones didn’t resign: Countered” when in truth what I had done was to demonstrate that nilbrains’s suggestion that Jones resigned to avoid peer review was, shall we politely say, less than truthful.

I could go on, demonstrating how the links he cited in no way refute Dr. Jones’s core thesis about controlled demolition, but what is the point?  We are dealing with an Orwellian sociopath.  His conflation of fact is not the result of a lack of intelligence but is based instead on calculated and wilful distortion—a point readily demonstrated by following the colloquy in which I thoroughly debunked his distorted claim that Dr. Jones resigned to avoid peer review.

In California’s standard instructions, civil juries are told that where a witness is willfully false on any material portion of his or her testimony, the balance of his or her testimony is to be distrusted.  The foregoing passage demonstrates that nilbrains was willfully false about the reason Dr. Jones and BYU parted company.  Why trust anything nilbrains has to say?

So, niloroth, we haven’t provided what you asked for? How about the YOUR credentials WE asked for, and while you’re at it how about who YOU really work for?

Sorry to all the reasonable logical skeptics that have arrived at the conclusion that 911 was a criminal anti-patriotic ‘put up job’, designed to enrich the neo-Con, Zionist, fascist Bush cronies & their co-conspirators; it was a criminal act that murdered 3,000 people (but not one single Isreali because they were forewarned), that I have flooded this thread with so many questions. I’m sure Ernest understands why I did this.

One of the tactics of the people trying to hide the conspiracy, that’s right I said CONSPIRACY (shouting it in caps even), of 911 is to try to flood the argument with bullshit information designed to obfuscate, distract, and confuse. DON’T BE SO EASILY FOOLED!!! Anyone, looking at the enormous amount of evidence pointing to either LIHOP (let it happen on purpose), or MIHOP (made it happen on purpose), and still defends these criminals, as niloroth has done on this thread, deserves an adjacent cell with him, because they are acting in collusion with America’s real enemies.

Numb nuts nilo has not ‘countered’ anything. All he has done is throw up a smokescreen designed, probably by his CIA or other employers, to confuse this issue we have been discussing. With an article such as this, discussing other felonious criminal acts (destroying public documents pertinent to national security), we should expect shills, stooges, trolls, spies, or whatever you want to call them, to invade progressive sites trying to put a question mark in everyone’s heads. DON’T BE FOOLED, OR FOOLISH.

The MSM is already bought & paid for, and has the same fascist intent toward America as the neo-CONS, and now they would like nothing better than to control the only access we have to information…the internet.

Thanks for your support, Ernest, it’s nice to know there are still some intelligent patriots around who can see truth through all the lies. It would be an honor to bunk next to you in the FEMA gulag that is coming our way. Ernest sees the writing on the wall, and the symbol…a Star of David (or should I say Rothschild) with a swastica in the middle.

See what I mean, Paul.  The moron actually thinks he has won, when all he has done is set forth his official MSNBC version of the events, ignoring basic science.  He reminds me of the guy you get into checkmate in four moves, then holds up his hands, shouting gleefully, I win!

Yeah, okay, nil-brains, if you want to think you won, I will not try to dissuade you.  No go away, kid, ya’ beginnin’ to bodder me.

Ernest:

“Paul, I, for one, see no point in continued dialogue with the disengenous niloroth, though I am certain that my merely so stating will generate another of his cynical quips. “

Ah, so now you see no point in continuing?  Of course you don’t.  Lets look at the score shall we:

Things you have asked for, or assertions you have made:

Paul

Evidence of thermite: countered.
Steven E. Jones was fired: lie, countered.
None of the flight 93 victims were identified: countered.
Confusion about the difference between a scientific theory and a conspiracy theory: corrected.

Ernest:

WTC7 fell in 4.1 seconds: countered
Attempt to support that Steven E. Jones didn’t resign from BYU: countered, and caught you quote mining and sabotaging links.
Requested an alternate explination for the collapse of WTC7: rovided.

Now, lets check your track record.

Things I have asked for:

A copy of the video that steven e jones uses to come up with his 4.1 second collapse theory: never provided
One single peer reviewed paper to support the truther position: never provided
Request for counter to the 103 witnesses who saw the plane hit the pentagon: no response from anyone.
Request for evidence any actual testing of a 9/11 truth theory, so that it could move from conspiracy theory to a scientific theory: never provided.
Request for Ernest to explain his sabotaging of his links: no response.

So of course you don’t want to continue the debate.  And now we enter the part where you bring up insane theories about the Bush’s, or the Jews, or the Illuminati, or whoever.  I really don’t care about that.  Like i said at the start, there is ZERO physical evidence to counter the official version of the events of 9/11.  You have failed in every attempt to produce some, and that is really all i care about.

Paul, I, for one, see no point in continued dialogue with the disengenous niloroth, though I am certain that my merely so stating will generate another of his cynical quips. 

Your lengthy list of unaswered questions is by no means exhaustive.  Amongst the additional questions is why on 9/11 members of the Bin Laden family and other influential Saudis were permitted to fly to Logan Airport at a time when everyone else was grounded?  Why were FBI agents permitted only a few minutes to confirm identity before these potentially vital witnesses were flown out of the country?  Why were those portions of the 9/11 report pertaining to Saudi Arabia redacted?

Joseph Trento’s “Prelude to Terror” provides an intriguing background.  When he was DCI Geo. H. W. Bush joined with his Saudi intel counterpart Kamal Adham to create BCCI (aptly dubbed by the Justice Dept. as the “Bank of Crooks & Criminals.”).  The arrangement, first proposed by Clark Clifford, would allow “worldwide covert operations [to be] funded through a host of Saudi banking and charity enterprises.”  BCCI was itself seen as an invaluable intelligence asset as it would “solicit business of every major terrorist, rebel, and underground organization in the world.”

Like his father Prescott, who acted as a financier of Nazi Germany even during WWII, Geo. H. W. was not one to pass a business opportunity.  He set up his own BCCI Paris account even while he was still Director of Central Intelligence.  He would not be the last Bush to benefit from the arrangement.  In the late 70s James R. Bath, whom Geo. W. Bush first met in the Texas Air Guard, invested $50,000 in W’s first failed oil venture, Arbusto.  In 1990 W denied he’d ever done business with Bath, only to back off after financial records proved otherwise.  At the time, Bath was the Texas business reporesentative of Salem bin Laden and Khalid bin Mahfouz (Osama’s brother-in-law), both of whom were linked to BCCI. 

According to Bath’s former business partner, Bill White, Bath “was the front man for CIA business operations” who used his connections to the Bush and Bentsen families to “cloak the development of a lucrative array of offshore companies designed to move money and airplanes between the Middle East and Texas.”  While Bath denied that W ever met Salem bin Laden, Bath’s account was disputed by his own daughter.  Pet Brewton, formerly of the Houston Post, asserts Bath was recruited into the CIA by Geo. H.W. Bush.

Despite the Bath investment, Arbusto was a bust.  In 1984 Arbusto, renamed “Bush Exploration” merged with Spectrum 7 Energy Corp, a Tex. financial services firm whose principle shareholders were staunch Reagan/Bush supporters.  W received 1.1 million shares of Spectrum stock & a $75,000 annual salary.  By 1986, Spectrum was awash in a $3 million debt.  Harken Energy purchased Spectrum, handing W $600,000 in Harken stock, as seat on the board and a consulting contract worth $50,000 to $120,000 per year.

Harken had its own CIA connections.  In 1987 W met with Jackson Stephens, wealthy co-founder of the largest investment banking and brokerage firm in New York to obtain needed cash for Harken.  Stephens brokered an arrangement to provide funds through a London subsidiery of Union Bank of Switzerland (UBS).  Sheik Abdullah Bakahsh joined Harken’s board as part of the deal.  Stephens, UBS & Bakahsh all had ties to BCCI.  Bakhash, like Bath, had close ties to Osama’s brother in law, Khalid bin Mafouz.

paul:

‘So what have you shown us, nilo? Your claim of dis-proof originates from highly suspect MSM & mostly government sources.”

So, in other words you are saying that you will only believe something from a fringe news organization, or maybe from some random blog on the internet?  What are your criteria for real news?  Obviously not very high criteria judging from the list you have posted. 

Really kid, try to focus.  Remember to take your ADHD meds, and then come back and try to support any of the theories that you have posted and i have responded to.  Lets get those out of the way before you start posting huge lists of insane questions and assertions.

WARNINGS

1. When did Vladimir Putin warn the CIA about a possible terrorist attack and what was their reaction?

2. What was the purpose of the meeting between Christina Rocca, director of Asian affairs at the State Department and the Taliban ambassador Mollah Abdul Salam Zaeef in Islamabad in August 2001?

3. Why did she oversee the delivery of Stinger missiles in the 80s to Afghan mujaheddin?

4. Did Walid Arkeh in Seminole County jail inform the FBI in August 2001 about an attack on America? What was the reaction of the FBI?

5. Why did Dr. Jeffrey Starr, U.S. department of defense, visit Tajikistan in Jan 2001?

6. When did Jean-Claude Cousseran, Director DGSE , French Secret Service inform the CIA about terrorist attacks on America? What was their reaction?

7. What does he know about the monitoring of Djamel Beghal, member of Takfir-wal-Hijra (financed by Osama bin Laden) and Kamel Daoudi? Did he ever inform the CIA about that? And when?

8. When did Italian Deputy Prime Minister Gianfranco Fini inform the CIA about a possible attack on the American president “with the use of an airplane”? What was their reaction?

9. When did President Mubarak, Egypt, inform the CIA about a possible attack on America with an “airplane stuffed with explosives”? What was their reaction?

10. When did Efraim Halevy , Director of Mossad since 1998 (unconfirmed) inform the CIA about a possible attack with “200 terrorists” on America? What was their reaction?

11. Is it true he warned Ariel Sharon not to travel to New York on September 11 to speak at a festival?

12. Did a caller to Loxley Banks, Director Radio Cayman Islands talk show, give several warnings of an imminent attack on the U.S on Sept. 3 -10?

13. The London Times reported that someone from the FAA warned Salman Rushdie not to travel to the United States on September 3rd? If this is true, who was it?

14. Did the FBI investigate the two men who met Mohamed Atta and Marwan Al-Shehhi in Harry’s Bar at the Helmsley Hotel in Manhattan on September 8, 2001?

15. Who does Abdullah Abdullah (Northern Alliance) believe killed Commander Ahmad Shah Massoud on September 9, 2001?

16. When and why did he decide to attack Kabul on September 11 at 5:30 PM?

17. When did he decide to invade Masar-i-Scharif

18. Did the CIA helped him provoke a tumult?

19. Did he ever meet John Walker Lindh?

20. Why was Major John Kenny, Commander Wright Patterson Air Base, Dayton placed on high alert on September 10? Did he inform companies in Dayton to shutdown their offices?

21. Why was Colonel William M. Dietrick , Commander Defense Language Institute in Garrison, Monterey on high alert on September 10?

22. Why did one of Kenneth (Ken) Weinbrecht (President SAMS ) executives say on September 10, that he was a ‘Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target US forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.’”

23. Did Jean-Louis Bruguiere, French anti-terrorism, inform the CIA on September 10 about a possible terrorist attack? If so, what was their reaction?

24. Why did Atta and hijacker Abdulaziz Alomari check into a Portland, Maine motel (unidentified) on September 10?

25. Why was the Portland, Airport, according to eye-witnesses, in full charge of more military officials and soldiers than usual, weeks before September 11, 2001?

26. Why, as the San Francisco Chronicle reported, was Mayor Brown warned to be “cautious in your travel” the night of September 10? Who warned him?

27. Why did Alex Diamandis, Odigo Vice President of Sales and Marketing, receive a warning on his messenger service about a possible attack on America on September 11, 2001? At which time?

GEORGE W. BUSH

1. What exactly happened on September 11 and at what time was President Bush informed?

2. Why was President Bush scheduled to visit a school in Florida?

3. Who scheduled the time of the visit?

4. When exactly did Bush learn about the first crash into the WTC?

5. How could he have seen that on TV?

6. Why didn’t he interrupt his school meeting as soon as he learned of the first plane crash?

7. Did Bush ever wonder how Bin Laden was able to hear the first plane crash live on the radio?

8. Which radio station he was listening to?

9. Can Bush explain how Bin Laden’s Home Video was found only two weeks after it was produced?

10. Why did Bush decide to release Bin Laden’s Home Video?

11. What is the purpose of the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC) in Fort Benning, Georgia, where terrorists have been trained for undercover agents in South America? Bush stated “if any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents, they have become outlaws and murderers themselves”. So what does he think about Fort Benning?

12. What is the role of Zalmay Khalilzad (former UNOCAL) in the National Security Council ?

13. What is the current role of Zalmay Khalilzad (former UNOCAL) in Afghanistan?

14. When was Bush’s last contact with anyone from ENRON?

15. Why was China admitted to the WTO on September 13 after 15 years of unsuccessful attempts?

16. Why did Bush postpone the release of Ronald Reagan’s records?

17. How does Bush feel about the need to investigate the CIA’s mistakes?

18. Does Bush agree with senators John McCain, Joseph I. Lieberman, Porter J. Goss, former C.I.A. clandestine case officer and a Florida Republican, Richard C. Shelby and Ron Paul, US Congressman, who want an investigation and have said “Secret government is winning out over open government”?

19. Why did Bush continue to sit in that classroom reading to children when he should have been conferring with his advisors?

20. Why did Bush say that he and Card initially thought it was an accident involving a small plane?

21. Given all the information sources available to the POTUS and his staff how could his people not have known the kind of plane involved?

22. Why didn’t they know at this point, as did the FAA and NORAD, that aircraft were hijacked? The Batallion Chief in the 9/11 video was seen and heard asking for military backup immediately after the building was hit.

23. How come the NYFD knew it was terrorism right away but the POTUS and his aides just calmly went about their business?

TONY BLAIR

1. Were 25,000 British troops and the largest British Armada since the Falkland Islands War, part of Operation ‘Essential Harvest’ pre-positioned in Oman, the closest point on the Arabian Peninsula to Pakistan before September 11, 2001?

2. When did he begin to place SIS-Special Forces in Afghanistan? Why?

THE SUN-SENTINEL

1. Did Gloria Irish own unit 1504 at the Delray Racquet Club, 755 Dotterel?

2. Did she rent that property to Hamza Alghamdi in August 2001?

3. Why did the media not report about a connection of the Sun-Sentinel and the hijackers?

4. Why did it first appear that the hijackers had something to do with the anthrax attacks?

5. Why has this connection or coincidence never appeared in the media again?

6. What was the connection between husband Michael Irish (SunSentinel) and Bob Stevens (who died from Anthrax)?

CARRIER AND TROOP MOVEMENTS BEFORE SEPT 11

1. Did two U.S. carrier battle groups arrive in the Gulf of Arabia just off the Pakistani coast before 9/11?

2. Did 17,000 U.S. troops join more than 23,000 NATO troops in Egypt for Operation ‘Bright Star’ on 9/11? What was the purpose of both of these operations?

BIOCHEMICAL WARFARE

1. When did Tommy Franks learn that he would use Thermobarics in ToraBora?

2. Does he know if it had been tested on December 12 in Nevada?

3. Who told Franks that Bin Laden might hide in ToraBora?

4. Is the main purpose of Thermobarics to destroy buried bio and chemical stocks?

5. When was the first time Franks used Thermobarics? Was it before or after the announcement of the end of ABM Treaty on December 11?

6. When did the US decide to use B61-11, the “nuclear version” of its “conventional” BLU-113 counterpart?

7. Why has the NSA destroyed data collected on Americans or US companies since the Sept. 11 attacks?

ABORTED ATTEMPTS TO GET BIN-LADEN

1. Why did Clinton abort an attack on Bin Laden in October 1999?

2. Who was responsible for that operation?

3. Why was the operation put on hold?

4. Why did Musharraf halt a covert operation to attack Bin Laden in October 1999?

5. Why did the GOP in Congress stop almost every move Clinton made against terrorism? They refused to believe reports and pass necessary legislation. In 1996 Clinton proposed a very extensive anti-terrorism regulation.

RICHARD REID

1. Who hired Richard Reid to threaten a passenger plane in Paris?

2. Who did he send an email to in Pakistan?

3. Has he ever been in touch with the ISI or CIA?

4. Did he know the difference between an explosive and a detonator?

5. How many ounces did he have in his shoes?

6. What size are his shoes?

7. Who build or prepared his shoes?

JOHN WALKER LINDH

1. Has John Walker Lindh ever been in touch with the CIA?

2. Did he ever work for the CIA?

3. Who arrested him in 2001?

4. Why didn’t he escape in the tumult to nearby Masar-e-Sharif?

5. Who hired his lawyer, Richard Brohanan? Who paid his lawyer?

6. Why didn’t he go to Guantanamo Bay?

DICK CHENEY

1. When did Cheney stop working for Halliburton?

2. Is he still in possession of any Halliburton stock?

3. Is he still in contact with Halliburton?

4. Was Halliburton invited to an oil conference in May 2002?

5. Does Cheney know when that meeting was planned?

6. Did Cheney have influence concerning Halliburton contracts with the Pentagon?

7. What exactly did Cheney decide to do on September 11th?

8. Did he speak with an Air Force Commander or Lt. Gen. Charles F. Wald on that day?

9. When did he inform the president about the hijacked airplanes on September 11?

10. Who called the White House on September 11 at 9:30 AM about a possible threat?

11. Why was no air security at the White House or the Pentagon at 9:30 AM?

12. When and who gave the approval to evacuate the White House at 9:45 AM?

13. What was the purpose of a meeting with Indian opposition leader Sonia Gandhi in June 2001 about a multimillion-dollar debt owed to Enron from a major energy project in Indian Power Plants?

14. When was the last time Cheney spoke with anyone from ENRON?

131. Did Walter Gilbert, Director Myriad Genetics ever get official permission from relatives of those killed at WTC to examine their DNA?

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES

150. Why did General Mahmud Ahmad, former head of the ISI quit his position?

151. Why did retaliation against the Taliban begin the day he stepped down?

152. Who in the ISI paid $100,000 to Mohammad Atta?

153. Why does Ahmad think that another secret service was involved in the WTC attack? Which Secret Service was he referring to? Did other ISI official’s believe that? Did officials of the CIA believe that? Did some officials of the Mossad believe that?

154. What was the purpose of Ahmad’s visit to Washington on 9/11?

155. Who told Russian Foreign Minister Ivanov to abort an air strike against Afghanistan in May 2000?

156. Did Russian intelligence notify the CIA in 2001 that 25 terrorist pilots had been training for suicide missions, as reported in the Russian press?

KISSINGER

1. What did Kissinger mean that an “outside threat from beyond”, a “world government” and “individual rights” who are “willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted”, what you mentioned in 1991 on a Bilderberg Conference?

2. What was his role at UNOCAL?

3. What did he discuss at the Bilderberg meeting last year in May 2001?

4. What was the purpose of his meeting with Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov in July 2001?

5. Why does he write in “Toward a New Diplomacy for the 21st Century” that America doesn’t need a Foreign Policy?

6. When was the last time Henry Kissinger met US-Ambassador in Pakistan, Robert Oakley?

Just scroll down to #1 and read up from there:

102. What was in the memo of Dr. Leonard Horowitz, a public health consumer advocate and author of “Death in the Air” on October 1, 2001, almost two weeks before the first anthrax letter was sent from Trenton to the American media building in Boca Raton?

103.What about his letter of Nov. 13 in which he claimed that BAYER is behind the anthrax infections?

104. Did US BioDefense laboratories send the anthrax-laced letters to get a new budget for research?

105. What about the statement of former UN-weapons inspector of Iraq, Richard Spertzel, who told ABC, “...he knows only five scientists in the USA who would be in the situation to produce such a fine, highly developed spore material”?

106. Why did it take 48 hours to inform Bob Stevens that he had anthrax?

107. Why were envelopes never found near Bob Stevens, Amelie Lundgren and Mia Nguyen?

108. How come Microsoft got a hoax anthrax letter from Malaysia on the same day that President Bush said Malaysia might be one of the next targets of the United States?

109. Why did the FBI never investigate the case Don Wiley, a Bioscientist who disappeared 11/13/01?

110. Why did the FBI begin to investigate after his body was found on December 22, 300 miles away? Was there an investigation at the military hydro plant where workers found him? Why did the media write different versions about how, when and where he was found? Why did the police report change 2 months later from suicide to an accident?

111. What was the goal of Bioport in 1997?

112.Did development of anti-anthrax vaccines begin in 1998?

113.When did Bioport decide to produce anthrax vaccines?

114. Was it before or after Sept. 1998 that Admiral Crowe was put in charge of investigations of the August 7, 1998 bombings of Embassy Nairobi and Embassy Dar Es Salaam?

115. Did the schedule for developing anti-anthrax vaccines begin starting in 1998?

116. When did the US Government ask Bayer for help in developing a vaccine?

117. When did Bayer start sending the vaccines to the U.S.?

118. When did Bayer double production of the vaccines?

119. Was the death of Vladimir Pasechnik investigated? He was former director of the Institute of Ultra Pure Biochemical Preparations of the Soviet bio-warfare establishment Biopreparat in November 2001?

120. How are the deaths of scientists Robert M. Schwartz, Dr. Benito Que and Set Van Nguyen explained since all occurred in the same month? Is Set van Nguyen related to the anthrax victim Mia Nguyen?

121. What about the death of Nancy Sonnenfeld (FEMA-Wife)?

122. Why was the NJ Division of Fish and Wildlife examining Anthrax in August 2000?

123. Do any employees in Trenton have the same handwriting as printed on the Anthrax envelopes?

124. Is it just a coincidence that the laboratory is also based in Trenton?

125. Did the FBI ever ask Fort Detrick to examine anthrax spores?

126. What about the list of 15-20 labs (maintained by Barbara Rosenzweig) who used Fort Detrick spores?

127. Does the CIA have spores different from those at Fort Detrick?

128. Why did Tommy Thompson, The Secretary of the Department of Health and Human Services, and other Bush cabinet members meet secretly (i.e. illegally) in Oct. 2001 with officials of the Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America (PhRMA) to develop plans for their Emergency Preparedness Task Force?

129. Why did he decide on October 25, 2001 to ask Congress for another $500 million to produce Acambis’s smallpox vaccine?

130. Why did it take 4.5 hours until Jean Marie Malecki , Director Palm Beach County Health Department, picked up the phone for employees of the AMI-Building, Boca Raton. This is where editor Bob Stevens got anthrax. Why did she wait two days before she visited that building again?

Start two messages previously if you want them in order:

BIN LADEN
63. Did the CIA monitor Bin Laden in 1998 with the help of 15 Afghan agents, paid $1,000/ month?
64. Where are these agents? Was Johnny “Mike” Spann one? Was John Walker Lindh one?
65. Is an Afghan agent a member of the ISI? Is an Afghan agent working for Bin Laden?
66. When was the first time Tenet mentioned the Al-Qaeda group to any member of the Senate?
67. Why did the Pentagon release a new video version or translation of the Bin Laden Home video?
68. Why it was released only 8 hours after translation by the German magazine MONITOR on December ?
69. Why were the four translators prior US-Government workers?
70. When was the Bin Laden Home Video found and who found it?
71. Who found the video if Northern Alliance and US troops had not yet arrived in Kandahar or Jahalabad?
72. Does the timestamp on the Bin Laden video indicate that it was found two weeks after it was produced?
73. Why was the public not informed who found the video and when?
74. Why according to MONITOR magazine, were the most controversial statements translated incorrectly?
75. Why was the video released?
76. Who gave the final decision to release it?
77. Why is the Bin Laden video of June 2001 in which he praised the attack, available on the Internet?
78. What about Bin Laden’s statements on Al-Jazeera in June 2001 about the bombing of USS Cole, which are similar to the statements on the November 2001 home video?
79. Why did Bin Laden state in Umman Magazine in Sept. 2001, that he was not involved in the WTC?
80. Is Bin Laden still on the payroll of the CIA or ISI?
81. Did the Bin Laden Group Inc. help build ToraBora with the CIA?
82. What was the purpose of the meeting with General Pervez Musharraf in May 2001?
83. Why was a statement released that Al-Khalifa bin Laden, who is not the mother of Bin Laden, had a telephone call with Bin Laden on September 9, rather than Alia Ghanem, his mother? Why did Alia Ghanem say she did not believe he planned the attack?
ANTHRAX AND MICROBIOLOGIST DEATHS
100. What happened on September 18th, when an employee of Batelle Memorial Institute was involved in a so-called anthrax hoax on that day? Was he arrested?
101. Why did the investigation of that case begin in December 2001?

These are out of order because there are more questions than answers, and there is a 4000 character limit here so it needs to be done piecemeal.

THE BLACK BOXES AND CRASH VIDEO
42. Why were the Black Boxes never recovered ?
43. Why didn’t the FBI release the air traffic controller’s protocols?
44. Why did the FBI not release the Flight Data Recorder info?
THE HIJACKERS
45. How did the FBI receive a tip from a passenger who boarded a different plane and reached his destination safely that he had a confrontation with two ME men at the Logan airport in Boston?
46. Who tipped the FBI to storm the Westin Hotel in Boston on September 12th?
47. Where did the photos of all 19 hijackers come from?
48. How were all hijackers identified just 2 days after the attack?
49. Why did all 19 names not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released?
50. Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN?
51. How could the hijackers disable the defense systems?
52. Why did the FBI ignore Bin Laden’s family, who left the United States without further investigation?
53. What about the supposed hijackers who are still alive?
54. Was there a reason to change the list of the original 19 hijackers?
55. What happened to Ayub Ali Khan and Mohammed Jaweed Azmath, who have been in jail since September 2001, because of possession of box cutters on a train? Who gave the tip to arrest them?
56. Why did it take 4 months before Ramsi Binalschibhs name was mentioned, since he was a good friend of Mohammad Atta and lived in his apartment in Hamburg?
57. Why did it take 4 months until December 11 to charge Zacarias Moussaoui for the 9/11 attacks when his case was known worldwide for months, but not mentioned in the American media?
58. Whatever happened with Lotfi Raissi, who was arrested in UK for teaching the terrorist pilots?
59. What is the current status of the investigation of Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export-Company in Hamburg and Al Taqwa Management Organisation in Lugano?
60. Why was Richard Reid able to enter the Paris airport twice and who paid for his hotel?
61. Who hired Zacarias Massoui to learn how to fly passenger jets in the United States?
62. Why did the FBI or CIA fail to interrogate him between August and December 2001?

So what have you shown us, nilo? Your claim of dis-proof originates from highly suspect MSM & mostly government sources.

1. Why didn’t jets intercept the airliners since they had numerous warnings of terrorist attacks?
2. Why did Ashcroft stop flying commercial airlines, citing an unidentified “threat” in July 2001?
3. Why did FEMA lie about their presence in New York on 9/11?
4. Why didn’t the Secret Service hustle Dubya out of the classroom?
5. Why did George H.W. Bush meet bin Laden’s brother on 9/11?
6. Why did passengers or crewmembers on three of the flights all use the term boxcutters?
7. Where are the flight recorders?
8. Why were the FISA warrants discontinued?
9. How did Bush see the first plane crash on live camera?
10 Why was security meeting scheduled for 9/11 cancelled by WTC management on 9/10?
11. How did they come up with the “culprits” so quickly?
12. How did they find the terrorist’s cars at the airports so quickly?
13. Why did Shrub dissolve the Bin Laden Task Force?
14. Why the strange pattern of debris from Flight 93?
15. How extensive was the relationship between the Taliban, the ISI and the CIA?
16. What exactly was the role of Henry Kissinger at UNOCAL?
17. When was it decided to cancel building a pipeline from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan?
18. Why did the FBI in 1996 close the files to investigate Osama bin Laden’s relatives in Washington?
19. Why did .Bush stop inquiries into terrorist connections of the Bin Laden family in early 2001?
20. Who made the decision to have John O’Neill stop investigating Al-qeada accounts?
21. Who gave the decision to give him a security job at the World Trade Center?
22. Did John O’Neill meet anyone of the FEMA in the night of September 10th?
23. What about media reports that hijackers bought tickets for flights scheduled after Sept. 11?
24. Why did none of the 19 hijackers appear on the passenger lists?
25. Why would devout Muslims frequent bars, drink alcoholic beverages and leave their bibles?
26. Why would the hijackers use credit cards and allow drivers licenses with photos to be zeroxed?
27. Why did the hijackers force passengers to call relatives?
28. How did the hijackers change the flight plan without law enforcement or the military try to stop them?
29. How did a hijackers passport miraculously appear near the WTC? Who found it and what time?
30. How could the FBI distinguish between “regular” Muslims and hijacker Muslims on those flights?
31. Why was there not one “innocent” Muslim on board any of these flights?
32. Did someone go through the passenger lists looking for Muslim names and label them as hijackers?
MOHAMMED ATTA
33. Did the Florida police provide information that Atta was searched because of 1) an expired Visa, 2) driving a car without a license, 3) because of an incident at Miami Airport?
34. Why did Atta leave his bag at the airport and the employees didn’t put it on board?
35. Who found his bag? How can we be sure it it was his bag?
36. Why did Atta place a video “how to fly planes”, a uniform and his last will into his bag, knowing that he would commit suicide?
37. Why did Atta leave his drivers license in a rental car?
38. When did Atta train on a flight simulator?
39. Did Atta leave the US while in training and then return?
40. Why did Atta decide to study at Opa Locka, a famous hub of 6 Navy training bases and includes government partners like U.S. Coast Guard Air Station, Police (Miami-Dade) Aviation Unit?
41. Why was Atta allowed to study since he was stopped by the police for driving without a license and also for violating his visa?

Ernest:

Again, you are having issues with honesty aren’t you?  Did you read the whole report?  I hate to break it to you, but if you get more than 4 sentences into the article, it is all about WTC7.  And much as you truthers would like to deny it, if you deal with WTC7, you have to deal with the collapse of WTC 1 and 2. 

There is also a large body of evidence to the fires in WTC7 that you seem to disbelieve.  Not to mention the reports of the fire fighters themselves who were in the building.  Are they all lying?

You question their timing of a 8.2 second collapse.  Okay, show me a video of WTC7 collapsing in 4.1 seconds, but please make sure it has the east penthouse clearly visible.  You must have seen it, since you put so much stock in the 4.1 second timing.  And i guess you could get it from jones himself right?  So, um, yeah, please produce it.  I have cited and referenced everything i has said, or can provide evidence at anyones request, you should do the same.

So lets see this evidence that would wow a jury if this was a court setting.

Get to it.

niloroth:  I looked at your reference.  Interesting that it almost exclusively focuses on WTC 1 & 2.  It states that there were physical forces at play over an extended period, then suggests that the entire collapse—they put it at 8.2 seconds, was due to the failure of a single column—never explaining why that single column would have failed when (a) the building was not struck and (b) there was no massive fire.  (That doesn’t even get into the fact that in world history, this was the one and only event in which high rise buildings collapsed by reason of fire in the manner that these three buildings collapsed.)

And as with most “debunking theories” this one relies on models as compared against precise footage offered by Dr. Jones. 

If we set Jones’s presentation of controlled demolition alongside this one, a jury would unanimously rule that Jones offers the more persuasive, but of course, that does not matter to you because, well, your mind was made up before you looked at either.

Got any more bright ideas?

Paul:

“Screw you, niloroth, YOU need to show YOUR credentials since you seem to be talking so authoritatively, NOT Ernest. Put up or STFU!”

My experience in structural engineering and architecture is exactly the same a Steven E. Jones’s, which is to say very little.  But you will notice that i am not the one making issues of experience and credentials, that was Ernest who started that, as he seems to place a lot of weight in them.  Shame his hero doesn’t have any either.  Anyway, have you made any progress on finding even one peer reviewed paper on why the towers and wtc7 fell that supports the truther conspiracy theories?  And have you made any headway yet in the difference between a scientific theory and a conspiracy theory?  Oh yeah, and about those tests i asked you about?  Doesn’t it concern you that the thermite cutting charges do not in fact even exist, and can not be produced by the very people who claim they brought down the towers? 

My guess, you focus on the credentials part, and fully ignore the test and peer reviewed paper parts of this post, because you have nothing to back you up.

High-Fivers and Art Student Spies

What Did Israel Know in Advance of the 9/11 Attacks?

By CHRISTOPHER KETCHAM

03/07/07 “Counterpunch”

Choking off the press coverage

“There was similar pressure brought against the media venues that ventured to report out the allegations of 9/11- related Israeli espionage. A former ABC News employee high up in the network newsroom told me that when ABC News ran its June 2002 exposé on the celebratory New Jersey Israelis, “Enormous pressure was brought to bear by pro-Israeli organizations”—and this pressure began months before the piece was even close to airing. The source said that ABC News colleagues wondered, “how they [the pro-Israel organizations] found out we were doing the story. Pro- Israeli people were calling the president of ABC News. Barbara Walters was getting bombarded by calls. The story was a hard sell but ABC News came through the management insulated [reporters] from the pressure”.

The experience of Carl Cameron, chief Washington correspondent at Fox News Channel and the first mainstream U.S. reporter to present the allegations of Israeli surveillance of the 9/11 hijackers, was perhaps more typical, both in its particulars and aftermath. The attack against Cameron and Fox News was spearheaded by a pro-Israel lobby group called the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA), which operated in tandem with the two most highly visible powerhouse Israel lobbyists, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) and the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (itself currently embroiled in a spy scandal connected to the Defense Department and Israeli Embassy). “CAMERA pep- pered the shit out of us”, Carl Cameron told me in 2002, referring to an e-mail bombardment that eventually crashed the Fox News.com servers. Cameron himself received 700 pages of almost identical e-mail messages from hundreds of citizens (though he suspected these were spam identities). CAMERA spokesman Alex Safian later told me that Cameron’s upbringing in Iran, where his father traveled as an archeologist, had rendered the reporter “very sympathetic to the Arab side”. Safian added, “I think Cameron, personally, has a thing about Israel”—coded language implying that Cameron was an anti-Semite. Cameron was outraged at the accusation.

According to a source at Fox News Channel, the president of the ADL, Abraham Foxman, telephoned executives at Fox News’ parent, News Corp., to demand a sit-down in the wake of the Cameron reportage. The source said that Foxman told the News Corp. executives, “Look, you guys have generally been pretty fair to Israel. What are you doing putting this stuff out there? You’re killing us”. The Fox News source continued, “As good old boys will do over coffee in Manhattan, it was like, well, what can we do about this? Finally, Fox News said, ‘Stop the e-mailing. Stop slamming us. Stop being in our face, and we’ll stop being in your face—by way of taking our story down off the web. We will not retract it; we will not disavow it; we stand by it. But we will at least take it off the web.’” Following this meeting, within four days of the posting of Cameron’s series on Fox News.com, the transcripts disappeared, replaced by the message, “This story no longer exists”.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17260.htm

PATRIOTS QUESTION 9/11

110+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
250+ Engineers and Architects
60+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
160+ Professors Question 9/11
190+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
100+ Entertainment and Media Professionals

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com

Screw you, niloroth, YOU need to show YOUR credentials since you seem to be talking so authoritatively, NOT Ernest. Put up or STFU!

Ernest Canning:

Here you go.

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

That is from people who actually build things for a living, as opposed to a professor who had never worked in the building industry.  Maybe you would like to see that journals board of review and editors?

http://www.structuremag.org/about.aspx

There it is. 

And maybe you would like me to list all the engineering orginizations and groups that have come out against the 9/11 truth theories? 

And how about that bad link you posted, any response to my charge that you were attempting to cover up the truth?  Seriously, if i was you and someone had made that charge at me, that would be the first thing i would correct.  Kinda telling that you didn’t.

Now, since you are so caught up on credentials, what are yours that you can be in such a position to know that Steve E. Jones’s papers are correct?  Against the opinion of not only his peers at BYU, but also against everyone else who has read his papers?

A simple copy of your cv will work fine, thanks.

niloroth:  Rubbish!  Still waiting for your scientific explanation which refutes Dr. Jones’s analysis of WTC 7?  And I am still waiting to see the credentials that reveal why we should accept your blind faith in “official theory.”  You remind me, nil-facts, of Congressman Langrebbe following the smoking gun revelations that led to Nixon’s resignation.  When asked how he could vote against impeachment after the White House tapes were released, he responded:  “Don’t confuse me with the facts.  My mind’s made up.”  As so too, your mind on 9/11.

Ernest Canning:

Wow, now i am the one taking things out of context?  Why, because i posted the ENTIRE paragraph that you were quote mining from?  Thats a really really weak comeback.  And i am curious, how were you able to screw up the link to that wikipedia article?  All you had to do was copy and paste it, yet you managed to change the text of the URL so it didn’t actually link to anything.  Why is that?  Were you attempting to keep people from easily seeing that you were quoting out of context?  Are you seriously that insecure in your position that you have to purposely sabotage your own links?

Paul:

“Ok, nilobrain, you say all conspiracy theories about thse very questionable suspect events are just that…theories. Evidence points to gravity & relativity, yet they are just ‘theories’, too. How do you rationalize them?”

Wow, you have fully failed to grasp the difference between a scientific theory and a conspiracy theory.  For a very good definition of the scientific theory, try wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

And then please tell me what parts of the 9/11 truth theory have been tested.  Sure, you could fall back on the iron-rich spheres that Jones found, but that still doesn’t answer the fact that there are multiple non thermite ways they were created.  Or you might try the truthburn event they attempted in the desert a few months ago.  But the funny thing about that was that they were not only not able to even cut the steal with thermite, they were fully unable to even recreate the thermite cutter charges they claim were used to bring the towers down.  That really doesn’t bode well for their conspiracy theory, but it does bode well for the actual scientific theory of how the towers fell, including the multiple peer reviewed papers written about that event.

I could link you to some info on that if you want, all you have to do for me to do so is produce EVEN ONE peer reviewed paper that supports the 9/11 truth movements version of the events.

Should be easy right?  So get to it.

Nilo,

If those who produced the report were not reporting the truth, your sceptor of debunkness is powerless.  You really can’t debunk anything because this administration has lied more times than the maximum characters allowed in this text box.

I really don’t have to provide any evidence for anything because I’m not proposing any type of theory.  I simply stated in my first post that there are some things that I find interesting and the explanation offered is anything but credible (given the nature of the administration). 

So, there’s really no point in me offering any evidence or you debunking it with your weak and dishonest reports.

It’s kind of like me pitching you an invisible baseball and you wanting to hit it with something other than a baseball bat.

I will trust the 9/11 report when it is verified by Mrs. Garrett from “The Facts of Life” and/or Alice from “The Brady Bunch”.  (the only two I know who are not motivated politically)

We can throw links at each other all day and we will never get to the bottom of it.

Ok, nilobrain, you say all conspiracy theories about thse very questionable suspect events are just that…theories. Evidence points to gravity & relativity, yet they are just ‘theories’, too. How do you rationalize them?

I can appreciate healthy skepticism, but when carried to the extreme it is just warped & a sickness. I’m more inclined to believe your denial is either YOUR tin foil hat is too small for your pinhead, or even more likely for you this is just “business as usual”.

And yes, Ernest, I would like to see this guys credentials compared to Jones’, too.

December 8 / 9, 2007

Amateur Hour at the White House
Spinning Iran’s Cetrifuges

By RAY McGOVERN

“Those who know about the centrifuges used to refine uranium tell me they must spin at an almost unrivaled velocity—almost unrivaled, because Bush administration statements are being spun at equivalent speed by White House and corporate media spiders. Without Spinmeister Karl Rove and former spokesman Tony Snow, it is amateur hour at the White House. And the theater would be as funny as The Daily Show, were the subject not so serious.
Judging from President George W. Bush’s words and body language he is far from giving up on ways to “justify” attacking Iran’s nuclear program—weapons-related or not.

He appears convinced he must honor the pledge he has made to Israel’s current leaders to eliminate what they have called an “existential threat” to Israel. This came through in a particularly pointed way on October 17, when an agitated president ad-libbed about the possibility of World War III, complaining loudly, “We’ve got a leader in Iran who has announced he wants to destroy Israel.”

Not at all helpful to the president was the judgment of U.S. intelligence that the Iranians halted their nuclear weapons-related program in 2003, a judgment the administration made public this week. The White House knew only too well that that this bombshell could not be kept secret very long—the more so since Congress’ intelligence committees, Pentagon brass, and senior CIA officials reportedly made it quite clear they would go public if the White House did not publish a sanitized version of the key judgments of the latest National Intelligence Estimate.

On Oct. 26, National Intelligence Director Mike McConnell launched a trial balloon, declaring he would no longer declassify and release summaries of National Intelligence Estimates, but that balloon was quickly shot down.

So what can Cheney and Bush do now to “justify” striking Iran? Several months ago, about the time new intelligence established there was no active nuclear weapons program in Iran, there were signs in the rhetoric coming from the president and Gen. David Petraeus that the argument was going to hinge on claims that the Iranian Revolutionary Guards were supplying the wherewithal to kill our troops in Iraq. Petraeus was clearly ready to play that game, but his superior, Admiral “we’re-not-going-to-do-Iran-on-my-watch” William Fallon would not play along. And neither would the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates is now back from a brief visit to Iraq and his caution so far on this issue suggests he is paying more heed to Fallon than to Petraeus. In other words, there is no sign that Gates wants to abet using Iranian meddling in Iraq as a pretext for a military strike on Iran. Gates’ well-deserved chameleon-like reputation counsels caution here, since a word from Cheney or Bush could conceivably make Gates a fervent champion of this pretext for war. But people do mature; Gates is smart; and I doubt he would want to be so closely associated with starting a regional war, if not WW III.

Spinning Enrichment

So where does that leave the beleaguered president? This week’s spinning by the White House and subservient media suggests the administration still thinks it can make a case for war, by obfuscating the nuclear program in Iran. This has become clearer as administration mouthpieces blur the distinction between uranium enrichment for a civilian energy use (permitted to signatories of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty) and the much more demanding requirements of a nuclear weapons program.

The spinners have resurrected the discredited argument that Iran’s nuclear program must be for weapons, because Iran’s oil and gas should suffice to meet all its energy requirements.”

“A pity that our domesticated media seem unable to catch the disingenuousness.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/mcgovern12082007.html

niloroth:  Your out of context posts are tiresome.  But since you say there is not a scintilla of evidence to debunk the “official theory” of 9/11, I will still wait patiently for your scientific evidence as to how the sudden collapse of WTC 7, straight down into its own foot print, can be attributed to anything other than the controlled demolition hypothesis advanced by Dr. Jones.  While you are at it, perhaps you will be so kind as to post your scientific qualifications so that we can compare that those of Dr. Jones as well.  Unless and until you can do that, bug off!

Goffredo:

the physics of the columbia disaster, and that of a plane hitting a tower are very very very different.  This is true, what i was linking you to the space.com article for was to show you that some very strange and counter intuitive things happen all the time with explosions and accidents.  There were a great many things that were recovered from all the planes that crashed on 9/11, the fact that a passport from a terrorist was one if the items is improbable, but obviously not imposable.  However, the point still remains, for you to dismiss that out of hand has having happened, you would in effect have to debunk every piece of personal belonging that has ever been recovered from every crash that has ever happened.

Good luck with that.

If you have any interest in reading about other items that were recovered from the planes that went down on 9/11 check

http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

By the way, you any closer to challenging me on any of the ‘evidence you have pointed out and i have debunked for you?  Maybe?  Some time soon?

Goffredo:

“I guess it boils down to this: you believe what Bush/Cheney/Fox News/Hannity/Rush tell you and I don’t.  Based on that we can have a “debunkified” fiesta all day Nilo.”

I don’t believe anything that bush et al tell me, i am not a republican, i do not support them.  However, there is zero evidence that 9/11 happened in any way other than the official story.  I have asked you to show me some, and you have so far not done so.  I have debunked points you have made, and like the rest of the 9/11 truthers, you have ignored my criticisms, and NOT EVEN ONCE attempted to back up your initial statements.  You are being lied to by the 9/11 truth movement just like the country has been lied to by Bush.  There is no difference at all between you and the ones who blindly support the president.  Well, maybe there is, since most republicans are not claiming that the government killed about 3,000 of it’s own citizens in a false flag attack.

Ernest Canning:

for one thig, the proper link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_e_jones

And i not that you did not quote this part of the entry, although you did quote THE VERY SENTENCE BEFORE IT.  I mean seriously, how far are you going to go to twist the truth? Here, i will give you the whole paragraph, without editing it to fit some weak political agenda like you did.

“Jones’ placement on paid leave drew criticism from the American Association of University Professors and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education. Both organizations are long time critics of BYU’s record on academic freedom.[30] Jones “welcomed the review” because he hoped it would “encourage people to read his paper for themselves,” however the review was abandoned when Jones elected to retire, effective January 1, 2007.”

So just to sum up, he decided to retire right before the review would have happened.  He was not fired, he retired right before his peers would have challenged him on his paper, and he has never published it in any peer reviewed journals.  Can you prove me wrong on that?  All the information is right there in front of you, please show me how i am incorrect.

Nilopath,

To compare a story about hundreds of live worms being found buried in the debris from the shuttle to finding one slightly burned passport in the debris of 9/11 is encyclopedically nonsensical. 

That being said, thank you for that particular post.
I understand you much better and have no alternative but to grant you mercy and cease exchanging posts with you.

Nilopath,

I guess it boils down to this: you believe what Bush/Cheney/Fox News/Hannity/Rush tell you and I don’t.  Based on that we can have a “debunkified” fiesta all day Nilo.  If I could create my own facts (and burn or delete those that don’t jive with my agenda) I would loan you this information to “debunk” people all day.  September 12, 2001 the “truth” became ultra-partisan.  “You’re either with us or you’re against us” became the new National Anthem.

Perhaps there are many who want to embrace the “internal conspiracy theory”.  I just want full transparency and the naked truth—-both of which will only come, piecemeal, after this administration is long gone.  Too bad because we’re better than that.

niloroth:  Here is why I find your posts and sources disengenous.  You claimed that Prof. Jones resigned from BYU to avoid having a peer review of his findings.  The folks at wikipedia tell a very different story.

“Jones maintains that the paper was peer reviewed prior to publication, though it has never been published in an independent peer-reviewed journal.”

and

“On 9/7/06 Jones removed his paper from BYU’s web site at the request of the administrators and was placed on paid leave….Junes placement on paid leasve drew criticism from the American Association of University Professors and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education.  Both organizations are long time critics of BYU’s record on academic freedom.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven.E._Jones

As to the collapse of WTC 7, I have watched it repeatedly from Jones’s presentation.  I am not going to quibble with you on 8 vs. 4.1 seconds.  The collapse was sudden, precisely tracks the mechanism for controlled demolition—straight down into its own footprint, clearly demonstrated on video.  If you can present a scientific analysis that will show explain why WTC 7, which was not struck by aircraft, perhaps you can present it for peer review and the rest of the world to see, for you will indeed be the first to so demonstrate.  While you are at it, you can explain what Ken Silverstein meant by the words “pull it” or what Rudy Guiliani meant when he told reporters on 9/11 that he was told 10 to fifteen minutes in advance to get out because the building was going to come down. Believe me when I tell you that I would be delighted to actually see hard evidence that would reveal, beyond a reasonable doubt, that fellow Americans—Cheney et al—were “not” complicit in mass murder.

So far, all I have seen from your posts are a lot of debunking and no evidence to support the validity of just about anything you have had to say.  It doesn’t take much in the way of science for someone like you to come along and dismiss everything and everyone who questions official theories.  One thing that is clear is that your accusation that Prof. Jones resigned to avoid peer review is as fraudulent as Cheney’s claim that Valerie Plame sent her husband on a junket to Niger.

Ernest Canning:

actually, all i keep asking for is evidence of a 9/11 plot other than the version that involves Al Quida.  I really would love to see it, i have no love for bush, or the republicans.  The problem is, that the only way anyone can believe the 9/11 truth information is if they either willingly accept lies without questions, or if they do ZERO research into the ‘facts’ of the 9/11 truth movement.  So far, i have seen no evidence ever that shows that anything other than the events played out as the official version reports. 

Actually, there are certain issues in the 9/11 report that are questionable, and i am currently researching them, but so far, nothing to the extent that i could point to a conspiracy, people covering their asses yes, but no conspiracy.  The sad thing is, while you people run around like idiots spouting lies and halftruths, you fully miss the actual issues that can be pointed out about the shortcomings of the 9/11 report.  But that is what you get with tin foil hat, NWO/ZOG/builderburger conspiracy freaks, all paranoia and no sense of reason.

And the end of your post is perfect.  I point out the truth about Steven E Jones’s departure from BYU, and the weakness of his research on iron-rich spheres, and you call that an ad hominem attack.  Really?  Could you please go read the definition of that, and then come back and describe how that works in this case? 

And since the east penthouse collapsed a full 8 seconds before the rest of WTC7 fell, how can you say that it fell in 4.1 seconds?  What kinda of new math is that?  Take 3 minutes and go watch
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kSq663m0G8
which features the FULL vidoe of the collapse of wtc7, not the edited versions the truthers use.  Oh, wait, is that you being lied to by the 9/11 truth movement again?  Why yes, yes it is.

Goffredo:

There was over 1.2 million tons of debris from the towers, not all of it needed to be saved and studied.  As such not all was recycled.  The materials that were saved were studied in depth. here is a source, not that you will read it, but none the less.

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_apd.pdf

As for the passport, here, go read
http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_worms_030501.html
Which is a far more unbelievable story, which i guess means that you now need to include the space shuttle columbia disaster into your sick conspiracy theory as well.

So, i am still looking for some good evidence in support of the 9/11 truth theoris.

And hey, for anyone reading along, just for fun, count
1) the number of statements the truthers have made.
2) the number i have debunked
3) the number they have then made ANY attempt to support in the face of my debunking. 

See, this all fits the usual pattern that truthers take.  1) Make a lot of assertions. 2) Ignore contradicting evidence. 3) never acknowledge any challenge to your assertions.  And finally 4) make more assertions.

Goffredo & Patrick Henry:  I have tried to follow your colloquy with niloroth.  Unfortunately, I think any attempt to confront him (or her) with evidence that diverges from the “official theory” of 9/11 is a collosal waste of time.  He has, time and again, summarily dismissed anything contrary to the “official theory,” no matter its logic or level of persuasion, as a violation of “his” certitude, irrespective of the gaping holes in the official version of 9/11.

Niloroth can say whatever he wants, but the plain and simple fact is that there is no reasonable explanation for the collapse of WTC 7 into its own footprint in the span of 4.1 seconds other than controlled demolition—his ad hominem attacks on Prof. Steven E. Jones notwithstanding.

Niloroth,

I just find this fact incredibly refreshing, knowing that our investigative/intelligence gathering bodies are first-class.  Perhaps you could illuminate for us how they were able to locate it a mere 48 hours after the attack.

Among the 300 trillion documents floating around ground zero, among the kilotons of steel and iron and debris (from the WTC towers 1 & 2, which fell due to intense heat and fire - fire burns paper), among the dead bodies and the searching for more….we are able to retrieve, gently, a slightly-burned-in-the-top-corner passport of Mohammed Atta.  I’ll bet I could win the powerball 7 times in a row before that could happen again.

You’re right…why ask any questions? 

It was another great idea to sell the scrap metal from the towers within 4 months of 9/11.  After all, it was only the largest mass murder on our soil-EVER!  Why let the stupid liberal building engineers look for facts and data?  Why do that when you have “truthiness?”

Go on with your blind faith brother, the kool-aid well runs dry on 1.20.2009…

RE: #119017 by niloroth

Here’s some more 911 stuff for you to refute, seems like you do this full time.

They call it the snowball effect.

http://tvnewslies.org/html/9_11_facts.html

Paul:

I provided 3 references.  You have yet to produce even one valid citation for you statements.  Please prove that there were no identifiable remains.

Or maybe you think that the media, and the medical examiners, and the people who collected the evidence at the site are all in on the 9/11 conspiracy?  So, what are we up to, a few 100 people just for the crash of flight 93?  And none of them have come forward about the largest mass murder on US soil in history? 

You really believe that?

And what about your statments about Steven E. Jones?  Do you admit that you were either lying or ignorant?  Seriously, is distrust of the media the best you have?

Weak.

Re Cyrena 118568: I don’t visit here often, on occasions such as this, excuse me for venting. BTW, Clinton in my opinion is the wife of a man who she knew committed perjury and obstruction of justice and whose actions made possible the Bush era. Now she has him out campaigning for her and hopes to pull votes in from his ‘legacy’. He and one other man came closest to removal from office in the history of the US presidency, and she was right there the whole time, aware he was lying about his extramarital affairs with a woman his daughter’s age, and ‘standing by her man’. Sorry, I think she’d make a horrible president-she is already making a mess of being a Senator. As far as Obama, I liked his candidacy about a year ago. Now, he has turned into the standard, Bush-lite, Jackass party candidate: the standard bullshit about maintaining forces in Iraq until 2013, with gradual withdrawls as stability in the region increases, and little to really distinguish him from Billary, Edwards, or for that matter the GOP fools. So, after being given the choice of a lunatic and a gigolo in 2004, we will be given a likely choice of either a glazed-over Jesus freak or a philandering mayor who has never handled even a state political office on the one side and a first term cypher who is all surface or a woman who in my book was complicit in us getting into this mess in the first place-and all four will continue to send our young men and women to die in desert hell for at least another five years. I’d like a candidate who will dismantle the CIA, close Gitmo and get every soldier out of Iraq in 90 days. Anybody out there?

niloroth,
Once again you show your lack of clarity by trying to use conservative MSM propaganda as sources of credible ‘evidence’. Get a grip on reality, son, WAPO & CBS tell us the truth? Hardly! Post Gazette, owned by the Conservative Tibune is just as suspect. Here’s the state of our Main Stream (Propaganda) Media now, with its neo-CON Zionist controllers:

http://www.natvan.com/who-rules-america/wra.pdf

1dree5:

“FOR THOSE WHO WANT A CHALLENGE READ MY OTHER POSTS AND TRY TO ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS WHICH IS LIKE IN DETAIL QUESTIONS AND THESE ARE JUST THE SURFACE QUESTIONS AND YOU WILL FIND THE TRUTH, WHY I DONT REPOST THEM COZ ITS NOT MY LIFE AND ITS NOT MY GOV THAT IS FUKED UP, YOU WANT TO CONTROL YOUR LIVES YOU TRY AND SEEK THE TRUTH, AND YOU WANT HINTS THEN GO SEEK MY OTHER POSTS IN OTHER ARTICLES, I.E. IF YOU NEED THE FACTS MY POSTS WILL GIVE YOU THE HINTS YOU NEED OTHERWISE JUST GO ON LIVING THE WAY YOU ARE LIVING COZ IT MAKES NO DIFFERNCE TO ME OTHER THAN RISKING MY SECURITY TO YOUR FUKED UP AGENCIES BUT MY EXPERIENCE TELLS ME I CAN IGGY YOUR “intelligent” COZ IF THEY COULD THEY WOULD HAVE SCREWED ME REALLY BAD A LONG TIME AGO AND NOT TO MENTION THEY DID DO THEIR WORST BUT THAT DIDNT KILL ME UNFORTUNATELY.”

1) This ‘.’ is a period.  It is used to denote the end of a sentence.  This is something that is done to make groups of words more readable, and easier to understand.  It will NOT, i repeat, NOT hurt you if you use one, and there is no danger of running out of them, they are a renewable resource.

2) There is a key on your keyboard that has the words ‘Caps’ and ‘Lock’ on it.  It kinda looks like this:

——————-
|  Caps Lock   |
——————-

You should make sure you have not hit it right before typing something.

Thank you,
Niloroth

Paul:

“How do you expliain the fact NONE of the remains of the passengers ‘supposedly’ on Flight 93 were identified although it crashed into DIRT in Pennsylvania?”

Simple, you have been lied to again.  Really, aren’t you getting tired of this yet?

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011027flight931027p5.asp
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node;=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/02/26/national/main502203.shtml

Really, if i was being lied to like this, i would eventually get kinda pissed about it.

Why aren’t you?

paul:

Your pdf link is filled with debunked issues, including multiple ones i have debunked in this very thread.  Funny how you have not tried to counter my claims at any point, and have even shied away from the fact that i proved you to be lying 5 posts after i told you the truth.

Please try to support any of the assertions you have made, or, attempt to undermine my debunking. 

Thank you

Ok, niloroth, since you persist in your denial answer this…you stated:

“Could you please respond to the fact that they were able to identify all but one passenger from the remains and the dna found at the pentagon site? 
http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/223/1/7 ?vol=223&fp=7&view=full”

Granted, the remains (or DNA) of all but a few of the people who ‘supposedly’ were on the flight that ‘supposedly’ hit the SOLID RECENTLY RE-ENFORCED BRICK & STONE WALL of the Pentagon were ‘supposedly’ identified (even disregarding the claim that the rest of the plane, including the steel & titanium multiple ton engines mysteriously ‘vaporized’).

How do you expliain the fact NONE of the remains of the passengers ‘supposedly’ on Flight 93 were identified although it crashed into DIRT in Pennsylvania?

Here’s another interesting link regarding 911, and some of the summary:

http://journalof911studies.com/articles/Intersecting_Facts_and_Theories_on_911.pdf

“If 9/11 was a false flag operation, whether and how we restore integrity to our nation is likely to be the greatest test our democracy has ever faced. The implications to domestic and foreign affairs will be nothing short of staggering. Some have suggested that confronting the truth of 9/11 will bring down not just an administration, but the republic. On the contrary, difficult as facing the truth of 9/11 will be, I believe that the republic will be radically strengthened: its citizens will be smarter and humbler, its laws will be respected, its transparency will be reestablished, its policies will be restructured, its relations will be restored and its honor will be reclaimed.

The process itself can be an example to the world of the unique potential of the democratic form of government to overcome the most pernicious kind of evil – the evil within.”

Paul:

Steven E Jones was not fired, maybe you missed this part of my previous post.
“Same with Steve E. jones, why did he resign (he was not fired) from his position at BYU rather than have his peers review his findings?  And why had he never submitted a paper to peer review?”

And as for those findings, there are multiple things that can cause Iron-rich microspheres.  One of them is welding.  And since Jones can not prove when the spheres were created, and since they were actually not taken from the WTC site, and not on or even near 9/11, he has some serious issues about proving their validity. 

Far more likely that they are remnants of the construction of the towers.  Jones knows that, he has just decided to leave that info out since it doesn’t fit his theory.

So now i have you blindly accepting poor evidence, and lying about Jones’s departure from BYU a mere 5 posts after i informed you of the real facts.  You are very bad at this.

To return to the gist of the article, aren’t these ‘missing tapes’ reminiscent of the ‘missing’ minutes of the Nixon Watergate tapes…another anti-America neo-CON Republican.

How do you explain this?:

http://www.erichufschmid.net/TFC/Bollyn-Physical-Evidence-of-Thermite.html

The professor who discovered this through valid research was fired from his job. Was he getting too close, and making people sweat?

As far as the money goes the price of a few books hardly can even compare to the $20,000 per American MORE in debt that has been foisted on us since the Busfia usurped power. Whenever one of them says they are looking out for my interests I’ve become very suspicious because I know they won’t be happy with outrageous banker’s usurous ‘interest’, they actually want the principle, too.

The battle lines are drawn. The fight is now between those who have increasing income without working for it (investments), and diminishing income from actually doing useful work for wages. 911 was just an excuse for the ‘haves’ to have more, and the ‘have nots’ to fund the thievery & treason.

Follow the money!!! Who gained and who lost from 911? Who stalled the investigation for more than a year? Who is warding off an independent investigation now? Why, if there is nothing to hide?

Paul:

“911debunker, NIST, Pop Science, wtc7 lies, sites with GOV in them, all thoroughly discredited by facts from INDEPENDENT research.”

Please provide your independent research.  I have yet to see anything that can stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.  Seriously, i am waiting.  And what is with you cowards?  If i had evidence that the government planned and then covered up the murder of around 3,000 of my countrymen, i would be in the streets rioting.  What are you all doing?  Sitting behind your computers in your houses?  You are either the laziest revolutionaries in history, or cowards.

americatheblind, you are wasting your time with niloroth since he is in denial, and in the past on this site suspected by a number of us of being a troll. Just look at his crappy sources…911debunker, NIST, Pop Science, wtc7 lies, sites with GOV in them, all thoroughly discredited by facts from INDEPENDENT research.

As if we should believe ANYTHING these government people (or their stooges) tell us after all the lies going all the way back to the Warren Commission…single bullet indeed!...utter hogwash, and even proven by E. Howard Hunt’s deathbed confession recently that laid the blame squarely on a power mad LBJ, the CIA, and other disreputable characters. Bush 41 is in the mix, too. The apple didn’t fall from the tree from traitorous Prescott down to traitorous George did it?

americatheblind:

Like all truthers, you attempt to switch topics as soon as your “evidence” is questioned.  Please respond to my sources.  Are you saying that they are wrong?  Please provide evidence.

“First off who is making money off of me?  Why, because I bought a few books?”

Yes, you got it in one.  Ask yourself, why does David Ray Griffin refuse to address the criticisms of his books done by Ryan Mackey?  He has a copy of it, since Griffin personally requested a copy from Mackey almost a year ago, and why won’t he debate him?  Simple, he doesn’t want to endanger his book sales.  Same with Steve E. jones, why did he resign (he was not fired) from his position at BYU rather than have his peers review his findings?  And why had he never submitted a paper to peer review?  The answer is, these people are lying, and they are doing it for profit.  You can support them, i won’t.

“There are
plenty of facts pointing to the fact that jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt structural steel” Thats not what happened, straw man.  Go read http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

“fact that Bush’s younger brother
was in charge of the security at WTC” Nope, thats a lie, he was on the board of directors, not in charge.

“and they had a mandatory powerdown the weeks before 911 (never in the history of trade centers has this
happened)” You don’t know how right you are about it never happening.  Over 50,000 people worked in the twin towers, and there is 1 (count them, ONE) person who claims there was a power down, and he has changed his story (first 36 hours, then 24 hours) and never been able to produce any evidence that was the case.  That includes ANYONE to back up his story.  I can find you more people who believe in santa clause, but guess who is not coming down the chimney later this month?

It never ceases to amaze me the low level of evidence you truthers need to believe something.  As for myself, i will stick with things that are real, and historical.  Keep your lies and ignorance to yourself.

“Now that we have that out of the way, we could sit here all day and point back and forth to links depicting our views, but what is the use?”

Yes, we could.  And i bet every single time we do, i am right, and you are full of BS.  So go ahead, try to correct anything i have said, and while your at it, please admit to all the things that you have been wrong about.

I love the timing,

The 16 intelligence agencies created an NIE, which is no small undertaking, hundreds of secret squirrels were involved in its creation.

The NIE was highly critical of the administration’s claims and by extension funding of our projection of power “over there”, which Israel is a direct beneficiary.

The next day we have rumors (NY Post, Oy vey!) of film of an event which happened years ago of battlefield interrogation by the squirrels.

Media payback?

Look at their expressions…the horror on their faces now, having to go before Congress and tell them that the president taped over the CIA interrogations with episodes of “24”....DVR’s are considered “islamofascist” in the White House.

First off who is making money off of me?  Why, because I bought a few books?  I would be alot more concerned with what was the catalyst for this
fraudulent, endless “War on Terror”.  This “War on Terror” is going to end up costing this country trillions of dollars (which our sons and daughers,
and their sons and daughters will have to payback by way of still higher taxes and cuts to things like children’s health care and social security), countless number of innocent lives, a loss of Constitutional rights and privileges and the ever weaking dollar which will eventually lead to a recession and collapse of our economy, and lets not forget to mention the view from the rest of the world that America is a hypocritical democracy and a power hungry fledgling superpower that once was.

Now that we have that out of the way, we could sit here all day and point back and forth to links depicting our views, but what is the use?  “Again, you have no idea what you are talking about since the people who are lying to you want you to remain ignorant”  Who wants me to remain ignorant?  The 911 Truthers want me to remain ignorant?  I’m sorry, that really doesn’t make much since to me.  I think there is definitely a group out there that wants to keep a lid on 911, but I think it’s the group that you support, since they are the only ones that gain by keeping everyone ignorant to the facts and the continuing coverup of viable questions that still aren’t and probably never will be answered. 

“warning, there are things like FACTS and SCIENCE in the article at that link, they might scare you, but in the end, they are your friend.”  There are
plenty of facts pointing to the fact that jet fuel doesn’t burn hot enough to melt structural steel, or the fact that a building doesn’t collapse
into the most resistance (which happened in all three WTC buildings without help from explosives, and cutting agents), fact that Bush’s younger brother
was in charge of the security at WTC, and they had a mandatory powerdown the weeks before 911 (never in the history of trade centers has this
happened), facts that only three buildings in the history of structure steel buildings have ever collapsed due to fire, and all three were on Sept. 11th; and facts that point out that NORAD stood down on 911, and none of the planes were intercepted, military drills taking place with same scenarios  
as what was really happening on 911 (I’m sure that was just a coincidence) etc., etc.

Like I said we could do this all day, what it comes down to is there are people like you who don’t mind that our civil liberties are being stripped
away (Patriot Acts I & II, illegal wire taps, e:mail spying), and don’t mind the fact that for the first time in history or war, we have a never ending war
with no clear cut ending and no clear cut enemy.  You need to look at history and what happened with Hitler, and how he turned Germany into a
Facist dictatorship, and finally open your eyes to see the same steps being implemented here verbatim.  That’s right buddy, crawl into a corner and
wait for your government to protect you, and you won’t have to worry about the terrorists, because the terrorists of the United States will have
already taken away what made United States the greatest nation on earth, ie. our Constitution, our independance, or liberties and our god given
rights as free thinking human beings.  Just keep waiting for the next 911, and believe me the government will already have a plan to take out the next “terrorist” that threatens our way of life.

I think severe interrogation IS torture.

Can anyone believe Al Qaedea would infiltrate the CIA?

I think they did not want anyone to identify the person who was doing the interrogation so he would not be questioned about who ordered the severe interrogation.  And, of course, they did not want anyone to see just how bad the techniques are.

So much for protecting the innocent and our captured soldiers.